they get hurt like Mitch Trubisky, Aaron Rodgers, Deshaun Watson, etc., etc. and you wind up having to start guys like Chase Daniel or Brock Osweiler or you name the no good backup QB.
Not saying you're wrong. Just, it's not that easy.
Regarding....Wheeler. Do you think another year of strength training in the offseason helps him? If we sign Daryl Williams, as our next RT....I think Wheeler can be the swing? Alot of this depends on how Williams is recovering.....it was a serious injury.
they get hurt like Mitch Trubisky, Aaron Rodgers, Deshaun Watson, etc., etc. and you wind up having to start guys like Chase Daniel or Brock Osweiler or you name the no good backup QB.
Not saying you're wrong. Just, it's not that easy.
And the Bears and Texans will be in the playoffs and we won't.
Yes guys get hurt. That's why you back them up with guys of similar ability. It's also why you coach sliding properly, running out of bounds, etc. Russell Wilson has made an art out of it. Lamar Jackson outrushed Barkley in college while also playing quarterback and never missed a game.
forward on the TD drive and also getting the ball to OBJ in the end zone under pressure...
I'll take this performance by the Offense against one of the top defenses in the league...they have come a long way compared to the beginning of the season...
this has been my main knock on Eli for a while now Â
A QB has to have the ability to create on the fly... even using the Odell TD throw as an example, I know it was a trick play so it is not exactly apples to apples, but OBJ's mobility kept that play going long enough to allow a WR to get wide open.
In addition to his lack of athleticism, I think we are seeing more and more evidence that Eli locks on to receivers and does not see the entire field very well.
It is good to see someone like Sy noting that Eli's limitations are holding this offense back.
A QB has to have the ability to create on the fly... even using the Odell TD throw as an example, I know it was a trick play so it is not exactly apples to apples, but OBJ's mobility kept that play going long enough to allow a WR to get wide open.
In addition to his lack of athleticism, I think we are seeing more and more evidence that Eli locks on to receivers and does not see the entire field very well.
It is good to see someone like Sy noting that Eli's limitations are holding this offense back.
Except that's not really what happened according to the post game interviews. OBJ looked and his initial target was covered. He then decided to run, there was really no where to go and he saw Fowler wide open. Just kind of a lot of luck it all worked out. My take away from that play was not his mobility, but the fact that he can chuck it pretty far without planting his feet.
Fowler was double covered - that when OBJ started to run - but then saw Russell Shepard wide open (who wandered out in space) - and Prince I believe stayed in his zone leaving Shepard open in the middle of the field. TD for 81!
How OBJ stopped flat footed and heaved that pass on the numbers was amazing - but we have seen what a freak he is
He's just too easily exposed in the passing game. And the league forces your hand to have DBs who can offer some of that ability. But it's just not in Collins's DNA. Can anyone say with a straight face he shows any improvement? A glimpse?
At the end of the day, it's simple - his stellar ability against the run is just not enough to offset his lack of ability against the pass. So it's time to find another solution.
I wrote the same exact thing about the FG at the end of the half by Rosas. The momentum swing was immense. If the Bears slip out of the playoffs, Nagy is going to regret that decision all off-season.
As I understand what happened, the play was designed to got o Fowler but he was covered... OBJ then drifted/ran... allowing time for Shepherd to sneak open.
and then OBJ threw that beaut of a pass.
so it was aided by the fact that OBJ was able to move around a keep the play alive after his first option was covered.
3 Giants combining to down Dixon's punt deep in Bears' territory in the fourth quarter. Webb would later force a fumble leading to a Giants' FG. Downing that punt was a heckuva athletic play.
As for the onside kick, didn't the head coach say the main problem was the blocking? Making it about Beckham seemed more about a narrative than the reality of what happened on the play.
I wish I could remember which TE it was, but one of them pancaked Khalil Mack on a toss run to the left side. Kudos to him. (BTW, Mack is such a phenomenal athlete, he was back on his feet running after Barkley almost instantly.)
Eli seemed to be forcing the ball to Beckham in the first half recklessly. IDK if that was a reaction to last week or what, but it bogged down the offense IMO and led to an interception (and nearly another one Beckham broke up). Eli also took a bad sack pushing them out of FG range. Too bad Shep couldn't hold onto that pass in OT.
Jordan Howard and Tarik Cohen combined for 98 yards on 21 carries, further proving the NYG run defense since the trade of DT Damon Harrison has really been a newfound weakness.
Trading Harrison has hurt the run defense? Then why was it done? Age, injury, salary cap? Two years after being chosen for 1st team All Pro by all four who name All Pros?
And Snacks, just to rub it in, has 3.5 sacks in five games, and three tackles for a loss.
I was reminded of this because there short video on ESPN of a Lion's writer ridiculing the Giants for the trade.
"What do they expect to get for a 5th round choice."
JPP and his 11.5 sacks - gone.
And now they're after Collins, who is no good because he doesn't cover very well although otherwise he makes every other tackle.
The play "was made by OBJ's mobility" because Roquan Smith, unblocked, had OBJ lined up - but didn't pull the trigger on the tackle out of fear of OBJ running past him. Smith froze rather, and waited for OBJ to come towards him, anticipating the run, not the pass.
I think he has a lot of talent but I wonder if he's out of position as a NT. Maybe he's adjusting to the new spot. It would be huge if he could be a force there. Also, a good job by Grant Haley. He's got some potential. He could be a good nickel back and fill an important spot.
As I understand what happened, the play was designed to got o Fowler but he was covered... OBJ then drifted/ran... allowing time for Shepherd to sneak open.
and then OBJ threw that beaut of a pass.
so it was aided by the fact that OBJ was able to move around a keep the play alive after his first option was covered.
I'm with you for most of that, but his movement had more to do with the design of the play vs. mobility in the pocket. It would be like praising a QB for a designed rollout.
The play "was made by OBJ's mobility" because Roquan Smith, unblocked, had OBJ lined up - but didn't pull the trigger on the tackle out of fear of OBJ running past him. Smith froze rather, and waited for OBJ to come towards him, anticipating the run, not the pass.
Did Smith say that or is that conjecture?
Great work Sy appreciate the way you see things in Â
breaking down the younger players that we don't know much
about . I will say this during the game It was the first
time I ever said Its time for Eli to sit ,that was right
before halftime . I think we should see Lauletta get his
feet wet . Hopefully it isn't because of injury but at some
point in time soon they have to get Kyle out there .
Either Start him or bring him in for a spark .
Cohen is much better than I thought and Wheeler might be
ok as a backup but we can obviously do better with another
Free Agent .
My only Question is we will be picking around 5-7 range
Who would currently be on your short list knowing
all the needs and is there a QB you would choose or
would you go with a position player if so who ???
He's just too easily exposed in the passing game. And the league forces your hand to have DBs who can offer some of that ability. But it's just not in Collins's DNA. Can anyone say with a straight face he shows any improvement? A glimpse?
At the end of the day, it's simple - his stellar ability against the run is just not enough to offset his lack of ability against the pass. So it's time to find another solution.
I wrote the same exact thing about the FG at the end of the half by Rosas. The momentum swing was immense. If the Bears slip out of the playoffs, Nagy is going to regret that decision all off-season.
I would use Collins in a more Cam Chancellor cover 1 robber cover 3 sky role, he gets sposed man to man in a lot of matchups.
I agree with the assessments across the Oline and QB positions.
1st question: Let's assume Lauletta is NOT ready for 2019.. What do you do at QB? I don't think Eli's play justifies extending him and therefore restructuring isn't really an option. At 23.2mio/6.2mio dead money, you have to think that a Bridgewater would give similar production at a fraction of the 17mio cost?
2nd, 3 part question offensive line...
Center: What would you do? Khalil, the Panthers long time center is available, could be a gap filler as a free agent? Do you think we could grab one with an early 4th round pick that is starter ready?
Right Guard: Brown seems to be adequate and adequate is a win at this point. I'd like to see him return. What do you think Jamon Brown costs in terms of contract? Fluker was in similar position and he's on a 2.75mio deal, I think. Is Brown going to be similar or is he going to get Omameh money and what do you think he is worth?
Right Tackle: Wheeler is a gamer but I agree we can't rely on him to change who he is at this point. I heard this is a deep tackle draft and given RT is a bit less demand, do you think we can nab a starter in round 2? Perhaps, it's center that offers the better value as a free agent given tackles trade at a premium?
separately, I really think Collins gets franchised. It's not that expensive to get another year to evaluate him with a bit more talent introduced on the defensive side of the ball. I think the offensive has plenty of pieces, QB and OL issues aside.. this offseason, I hope they address the lack of playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
Regarding....Wheeler. Do you think another year of strength training in the offseason helps him? If we sign Daryl Williams, as our next RT....I think Wheeler can be the swing? Alot of this depends on how Williams is recovering.....it was a serious injury.
I do think he deserves a shot to compete for a spot. But he will be one of those guys that you want to stick around, but you can't make personnel or draft decisions around him.
RE: Questions for Sy... or anyone else that wants to opine... Â
I agree with the assessments across the Oline and QB positions.
1st question: Let's assume Lauletta is NOT ready for 2019.. What do you do at QB? I don't think Eli's play justifies extending him and therefore restructuring isn't really an option. At 23.2mio/6.2mio dead money, you have to think that a Bridgewater would give similar production at a fraction of the 17mio cost?
2nd, 3 part question offensive line...
Center: What would you do? Khalil, the Panthers long time center is available, could be a gap filler as a free agent? Do you think we could grab one with an early 4th round pick that is starter ready?
Right Guard: Brown seems to be adequate and adequate is a win at this point. I'd like to see him return. What do you think Jamon Brown costs in terms of contract? Fluker was in similar position and he's on a 2.75mio deal, I think. Is Brown going to be similar or is he going to get Omameh money and what do you think he is worth?
Right Tackle: Wheeler is a gamer but I agree we can't rely on him to change who he is at this point. I heard this is a deep tackle draft and given RT is a bit less demand, do you think we can nab a starter in round 2? Perhaps, it's center that offers the better value as a free agent given tackles trade at a premium?
separately, I really think Collins gets franchised. It's not that expensive to get another year to evaluate him with a bit more talent introduced on the defensive side of the ball. I think the offensive has plenty of pieces, QB and OL issues aside.. this offseason, I hope they address the lack of playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
That problem with your scenario (QB) is, what good is similar production if your not saving a significant amount of money to sign other players? If the numbers that have been posted are correct, it's something like 10 million in dead money. If you pay a stop gap QB 6 million and you don't upgrade the position, what good is the extra 6 million in savings?
overall thoughts on Gettleman's 1st draft now that we are 12 games in?
I think any time a draft nets more half or more than half of its players that end up being productive throughout their entire rookie contract and earn a second contract in the league afterward has to be considered a success.
So by the small sample I've seen out of this class, I think Gettleman's first draft is and will end up being a very solid group. I think the wildcard of the group will be Lorenzo Carter.
RE: Questions for Sy... or anyone else that wants to opine... Â
I agree with the assessments across the Oline and QB positions.
1st question: Let's assume Lauletta is NOT ready for 2019.. What do you do at QB? I don't think Eli's play justifies extending him and therefore restructuring isn't really an option. At 23.2mio/6.2mio dead money, you have to think that a Bridgewater would give similar production at a fraction of the 17mio cost?
2nd, 3 part question offensive line...
Center: What would you do? Khalil, the Panthers long time center is available, could be a gap filler as a free agent? Do you think we could grab one with an early 4th round pick that is starter ready?
Right Guard: Brown seems to be adequate and adequate is a win at this point. I'd like to see him return. What do you think Jamon Brown costs in terms of contract? Fluker was in similar position and he's on a 2.75mio deal, I think. Is Brown going to be similar or is he going to get Omameh money and what do you think he is worth?
Right Tackle: Wheeler is a gamer but I agree we can't rely on him to change who he is at this point. I heard this is a deep tackle draft and given RT is a bit less demand, do you think we can nab a starter in round 2? Perhaps, it's center that offers the better value as a free agent given tackles trade at a premium?
separately, I really think Collins gets franchised. It's not that expensive to get another year to evaluate him with a bit more talent introduced on the defensive side of the ball. I think the offensive has plenty of pieces, QB and OL issues aside.. this offseason, I hope they address the lack of playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
A new rookie or let Eli play in 2019, those are my 2 ideal options. If you open up the trade market for struggling clubs like OAK (Carr) or DET (Stafford)...I would listen to that as well.
But I don't want Bridgewater and Lauletta isn't the answer in my opinion.
OC...This is a very strong OC draft. Not saying you need to go in the offseason with that exact approach, but it is a nice fall back option.
RG, I am going to reserve judgement on Brown until the end of the year. But I do like what I see and it may be worth a team friendly multi year deal to keep him here. There needs to be a a backup plan for Wheeler, because I'm not confident he is a starting RT on a top 5 OL and that is how I want this team built.
Is it routine for the SS to be in man coverage downfield alot? Do most strong safeties manage it better than Collins?
I remember watching him play free as a rookie and it was obvious that was not his best spot. But I really can't tell whether he is as helpless at strong safety as everyone says or if he's just not used in a way that plays to his strength or maybe fan expectations are too high.
pretty unusual for a guy who's bounced around for 5 or 6 years as a 4th or 5th corner (if that) for a bunch of teams to become a solid starter but seems like that's what's happening with him. With Beal coming back CB may be pretty low on our list of needs. Not something I would have thought just a few weeks ago after we officially gave up on Apple.
Also interesting comment about Vernon being on a different level than the rest of the edge guys. Easy to get frustrated with him as he doesn't rack up the sacks or disruptive plays that you expect for a guy with his salary but he's still a lot better than anything else we have and won't be nearly as easy to replace as some around here think.
Agree 100%
" I see so many offenses have no issues getting the ball to their top receivers and it just seems like it is too much of a struggle with Beckham."
This is what stood out to me in your review because it's been one of my main concerns as well. I just don't get it? He is nearly unstoppable?! How many other teams if they had Odell would utilize the hell out of him?? To many.. More reasons why I think they need to look for a new OC.
He's just too easily exposed in the passing game. And the league forces your hand to have DBs who can offer some of that ability. But it's just not in Collins's DNA. Can anyone say with a straight face he shows any improvement? A glimpse?
One of the most amusing constancies on this board has been the desire to get rid of the better players on the team because they are not perfect and make too much money.
Sure we should get rid of Collins, about the only defensive player who can tackle. And we should replace him with a safety who can run all over the field and tackle AND cover.
How much worse is Collins at coverage than the other strong safeties in the league. If his strong point was coverage, then he'd be playing FS or corner.
No problem. Of course we already need to fill the two most expensive positions of quarterback and pass rusher.
Collins does two things better than anyone else on the defense. He runs all over the field and tackles, and he rushes the passer. Put him at any named position you like, but let him do those two things.
Andy Dalton and Joe Flacco aren't missing time because they like to scramble. Even Alex Smith didn't get hurt leaving the pocket. There are more mobile QBs now so each time one gets hurt it's easy to blame it on running, but that isn't the cause in many instances.
We have been spoiled with Eli in that he never misses time with injury. That is not just because he stays in the pocket. He knows when to get rid of the ball and he knows how to take a hit to minimize the impact. But our next QB will probably be injured from time to time, and the Giants shouldn't look for a statue just because he may play more games.
they get hurt like Mitch Trubisky, Aaron Rodgers, Deshaun Watson, etc., etc. and you wind up having to start guys like Chase Daniel or Brock Osweiler or you name the no good backup QB.
Not saying you're wrong. Just, it's not that easy.
And the Bears and Texans will be in the playoffs and we won't.
Yes guys get hurt. That's why you back them up with guys of similar ability. It's also why you coach sliding properly, running out of bounds, etc. Russell Wilson has made an art out of it. Lamar Jackson outrushed Barkley in college while also playing quarterback and never missed a game.
And this is where your strategy completely falls apart. Putting aside that there are few even close to Rodgers/Wilson ability, even getting a Watson/Trubisky level player requires using at worst a 1st round pick and likely a top 15 pick. So if you want multiple players of that caliber on your roster, you need to spend 2 firsts on the QB position, one of which will (if you're lucky) never see the field.
And then you either have to pay them >$25M per season after 5 years or use another 1st round pick on a QB. And it's far more likely you have to invest even more draft capital than this just to find 2 Trubisky-level QBs when you consider the bust rate of QBs.
I agree with the assessments across the Oline and QB positions.
1st question: Let's assume Lauletta is NOT ready for 2019.. What do you do at QB? I don't think Eli's play justifies extending him and therefore restructuring isn't really an option. At 23.2mio/6.2mio dead money, you have to think that a Bridgewater would give similar production at a fraction of the 17mio cost?
2nd, 3 part question offensive line...
Center: What would you do? Khalil, the Panthers long time center is available, could be a gap filler as a free agent? Do you think we could grab one with an early 4th round pick that is starter ready?
Right Guard: Brown seems to be adequate and adequate is a win at this point. I'd like to see him return. What do you think Jamon Brown costs in terms of contract? Fluker was in similar position and he's on a 2.75mio deal, I think. Is Brown going to be similar or is he going to get Omameh money and what do you think he is worth?
Right Tackle: Wheeler is a gamer but I agree we can't rely on him to change who he is at this point. I heard this is a deep tackle draft and given RT is a bit less demand, do you think we can nab a starter in round 2? Perhaps, it's center that offers the better value as a free agent given tackles trade at a premium?
separately, I really think Collins gets franchised. It's not that expensive to get another year to evaluate him with a bit more talent introduced on the defensive side of the ball. I think the offensive has plenty of pieces, QB and OL issues aside.. this offseason, I hope they address the lack of playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
That problem with your scenario (QB) is, what good is similar production if your not saving a significant amount of money to sign other players? If the numbers that have been posted are correct, it's something like 10 million in dead money. If you pay a stop gap QB 6 million and you don't upgrade the position, what good is the extra 6 million in savings?
JO - Agree in principle but the cap numbers you are working off are wrong. Cutting Eli saves >17mio in cap space. Currently Eli is 23.2mio in cap space next year and ~6mio in dead cap if cut. Bottom line, what can you get for 17mio in free agency (not 10mio)? I can't imagine Bridgewater is more than 6-8mio (He's currently 6mio a year). I think, the Giants could extend Eli, reduce his cap number for 2019 but that would mean committing to him for 2020 and probably taking a cap hit in 2021 to make the same decision we'd be making now.
I know Sy doesnt like Bridgewater having read his reveiws prior. I'm certainly not going to question his judgement on that, he may be right. But is Bridgewater + a upgrage a RT via FA allow us to use our 1st and 2nd round picks to upgrade defensively?
I know many on here are ok with Eli continuing but I'm thinking the decline is clear in his play, I'd be really worried about 2019 never mind 2020 and 2021. It depends on what he'd play for ... but based on production 17mio is the absolute limit of his worth and I'd be very hesitant to offer that for multiple years there.
I'd argue, if you think Eli is your QB for 2019 at 23.2mio, it can only be logically to say he'll be good enough in 2020 to be worth extending so you need to extend but I would concede, until someone (and I can't) can present someone cheaper, the devil you know may be better. I just don't think Eli plays out his contract at 23.2mio next year.
RE: RE: RE: Questions for Sy... or anyone else that wants to opine... Â
I agree with the assessments across the Oline and QB positions.
1st question: Let's assume Lauletta is NOT ready for 2019.. What do you do at QB? I don't think Eli's play justifies extending him and therefore restructuring isn't really an option. At 23.2mio/6.2mio dead money, you have to think that a Bridgewater would give similar production at a fraction of the 17mio cost?
2nd, 3 part question offensive line...
Center: What would you do? Khalil, the Panthers long time center is available, could be a gap filler as a free agent? Do you think we could grab one with an early 4th round pick that is starter ready?
Right Guard: Brown seems to be adequate and adequate is a win at this point. I'd like to see him return. What do you think Jamon Brown costs in terms of contract? Fluker was in similar position and he's on a 2.75mio deal, I think. Is Brown going to be similar or is he going to get Omameh money and what do you think he is worth?
Right Tackle: Wheeler is a gamer but I agree we can't rely on him to change who he is at this point. I heard this is a deep tackle draft and given RT is a bit less demand, do you think we can nab a starter in round 2? Perhaps, it's center that offers the better value as a free agent given tackles trade at a premium?
separately, I really think Collins gets franchised. It's not that expensive to get another year to evaluate him with a bit more talent introduced on the defensive side of the ball. I think the offensive has plenty of pieces, QB and OL issues aside.. this offseason, I hope they address the lack of playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
That problem with your scenario (QB) is, what good is similar production if your not saving a significant amount of money to sign other players? If the numbers that have been posted are correct, it's something like 10 million in dead money. If you pay a stop gap QB 6 million and you don't upgrade the position, what good is the extra 6 million in savings?
JO - Agree in principle but the cap numbers you are working off are wrong. Cutting Eli saves >17mio in cap space. Currently Eli is 23.2mio in cap space next year and ~6mio in dead cap if cut. Bottom line, what can you get for 17mio in free agency (not 10mio)? I can't imagine Bridgewater is more than 6-8mio (He's currently 6mio a year). I think, the Giants could extend Eli, reduce his cap number for 2019 but that would mean committing to him for 2020 and probably taking a cap hit in 2021 to make the same decision we'd be making now.
I know Sy doesnt like Bridgewater having read his reveiws prior. I'm certainly not going to question his judgement on that, he may be right. But is Bridgewater + a upgrage a RT via FA allow us to use our 1st and 2nd round picks to upgrade defensively?
I know many on here are ok with Eli continuing but I'm thinking the decline is clear in his play, I'd be really worried about 2019 never mind 2020 and 2021. It depends on what he'd play for ... but based on production 17mio is the absolute limit of his worth and I'd be very hesitant to offer that for multiple years there.
I'd argue, if you think Eli is your QB for 2019 at 23.2mio, it can only be logically to say he'll be good enough in 2020 to be worth extending so you need to extend but I would concede, until someone (and I can't) can present someone cheaper, the devil you know may be better. I just don't think Eli plays out his contract at 23.2mio next year.
I was going onff the numbers Diver Down has been posting. I don't know whose numbers are correct. The ones he had posted said it was 10 million in dead cap money.
uses but hopefully he reads this .. would be good to know one way or the other which is correct. I haven't heard 10mio reported but I also can't really remember whether I heard 6.2mio in dead space reported elsewhere either. :)
Not saying you're wrong. Just, it's not that easy.
Not saying you're wrong. Just, it's not that easy.
And the Bears and Texans will be in the playoffs and we won't.
Yes guys get hurt. That's why you back them up with guys of similar ability. It's also why you coach sliding properly, running out of bounds, etc. Russell Wilson has made an art out of it. Lamar Jackson outrushed Barkley in college while also playing quarterback and never missed a game.
Wilson is an outlier.
It's how you wind up with a QB of Rodgers's caliber with only 1 Super Bowl to date.
I'll take this performance by the Offense against one of the top defenses in the league...they have come a long way compared to the beginning of the season...
In addition to his lack of athleticism, I think we are seeing more and more evidence that Eli locks on to receivers and does not see the entire field very well.
It is good to see someone like Sy noting that Eli's limitations are holding this offense back.
Wilson is an outlier.
It's how you wind up with a QB of Rodgers's caliber with only 1 Super Bowl to date.
Far more fragile is hoping the next Brees falls on your lap.
In addition to his lack of athleticism, I think we are seeing more and more evidence that Eli locks on to receivers and does not see the entire field very well.
It is good to see someone like Sy noting that Eli's limitations are holding this offense back.
Except that's not really what happened according to the post game interviews. OBJ looked and his initial target was covered. He then decided to run, there was really no where to go and he saw Fowler wide open. Just kind of a lot of luck it all worked out. My take away from that play was not his mobility, but the fact that he can chuck it pretty far without planting his feet.
How OBJ stopped flat footed and heaved that pass on the numbers was amazing - but we have seen what a freak he is
At the end of the day, it's simple - his stellar ability against the run is just not enough to offset his lack of ability against the pass. So it's time to find another solution.
I wrote the same exact thing about the FG at the end of the half by Rosas. The momentum swing was immense. If the Bears slip out of the playoffs, Nagy is going to regret that decision all off-season.
and then OBJ threw that beaut of a pass.
so it was aided by the fact that OBJ was able to move around a keep the play alive after his first option was covered.
As for the onside kick, didn't the head coach say the main problem was the blocking? Making it about Beckham seemed more about a narrative than the reality of what happened on the play.
I wish I could remember which TE it was, but one of them pancaked Khalil Mack on a toss run to the left side. Kudos to him. (BTW, Mack is such a phenomenal athlete, he was back on his feet running after Barkley almost instantly.)
Eli seemed to be forcing the ball to Beckham in the first half recklessly. IDK if that was a reaction to last week or what, but it bogged down the offense IMO and led to an interception (and nearly another one Beckham broke up). Eli also took a bad sack pushing them out of FG range. Too bad Shep couldn't hold onto that pass in OT.
Quote:
More fragile than other models.
Wilson is an outlier.
It's how you wind up with a QB of Rodgers's caliber with only 1 Super Bowl to date.
Far more fragile is hoping the next Brees falls on your lap.
Trading Harrison has hurt the run defense? Then why was it done? Age, injury, salary cap? Two years after being chosen for 1st team All Pro by all four who name All Pros?
And Snacks, just to rub it in, has 3.5 sacks in five games, and three tackles for a loss.
I was reminded of this because there short video on ESPN of a Lion's writer ridiculing the Giants for the trade.
"What do they expect to get for a 5th round choice."
JPP and his 11.5 sacks - gone.
And now they're after Collins, who is no good because he doesn't cover very well although otherwise he makes every other tackle.
He jumps into the ground faster than a gopher.
Don't see how you could complain. Great production from the top picks.
and then OBJ threw that beaut of a pass.
so it was aided by the fact that OBJ was able to move around a keep the play alive after his first option was covered.
I'm with you for most of that, but his movement had more to do with the design of the play vs. mobility in the pocket. It would be like praising a QB for a designed rollout.
Did Smith say that or is that conjecture?
about . I will say this during the game It was the first
time I ever said Its time for Eli to sit ,that was right
before halftime . I think we should see Lauletta get his
feet wet . Hopefully it isn't because of injury but at some
point in time soon they have to get Kyle out there .
Either Start him or bring him in for a spark .
Cohen is much better than I thought and Wheeler might be
ok as a backup but we can obviously do better with another
Free Agent .
My only Question is we will be picking around 5-7 range
Who would currently be on your short list knowing
all the needs and is there a QB you would choose or
would you go with a position player if so who ???
Tackle for loss.
Neither can Garrapollo or Alex Smith.
Imagine having to sub in Mark Saniche -shivers-
At the end of the day, it's simple - his stellar ability against the run is just not enough to offset his lack of ability against the pass. So it's time to find another solution.
I wrote the same exact thing about the FG at the end of the half by Rosas. The momentum swing was immense. If the Bears slip out of the playoffs, Nagy is going to regret that decision all off-season.
I would use Collins in a more Cam Chancellor cover 1 robber cover 3 sky role, he gets sposed man to man in a lot of matchups.
Tackle For Loss
1st question: Let's assume Lauletta is NOT ready for 2019.. What do you do at QB? I don't think Eli's play justifies extending him and therefore restructuring isn't really an option. At 23.2mio/6.2mio dead money, you have to think that a Bridgewater would give similar production at a fraction of the 17mio cost?
2nd, 3 part question offensive line...
Center: What would you do? Khalil, the Panthers long time center is available, could be a gap filler as a free agent? Do you think we could grab one with an early 4th round pick that is starter ready?
Right Guard: Brown seems to be adequate and adequate is a win at this point. I'd like to see him return. What do you think Jamon Brown costs in terms of contract? Fluker was in similar position and he's on a 2.75mio deal, I think. Is Brown going to be similar or is he going to get Omameh money and what do you think he is worth?
Right Tackle: Wheeler is a gamer but I agree we can't rely on him to change who he is at this point. I heard this is a deep tackle draft and given RT is a bit less demand, do you think we can nab a starter in round 2? Perhaps, it's center that offers the better value as a free agent given tackles trade at a premium?
separately, I really think Collins gets franchised. It's not that expensive to get another year to evaluate him with a bit more talent introduced on the defensive side of the ball. I think the offensive has plenty of pieces, QB and OL issues aside.. this offseason, I hope they address the lack of playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
I do think he deserves a shot to compete for a spot. But he will be one of those guys that you want to stick around, but you can't make personnel or draft decisions around him.
1st question: Let's assume Lauletta is NOT ready for 2019.. What do you do at QB? I don't think Eli's play justifies extending him and therefore restructuring isn't really an option. At 23.2mio/6.2mio dead money, you have to think that a Bridgewater would give similar production at a fraction of the 17mio cost?
2nd, 3 part question offensive line...
Center: What would you do? Khalil, the Panthers long time center is available, could be a gap filler as a free agent? Do you think we could grab one with an early 4th round pick that is starter ready?
Right Guard: Brown seems to be adequate and adequate is a win at this point. I'd like to see him return. What do you think Jamon Brown costs in terms of contract? Fluker was in similar position and he's on a 2.75mio deal, I think. Is Brown going to be similar or is he going to get Omameh money and what do you think he is worth?
Right Tackle: Wheeler is a gamer but I agree we can't rely on him to change who he is at this point. I heard this is a deep tackle draft and given RT is a bit less demand, do you think we can nab a starter in round 2? Perhaps, it's center that offers the better value as a free agent given tackles trade at a premium?
separately, I really think Collins gets franchised. It's not that expensive to get another year to evaluate him with a bit more talent introduced on the defensive side of the ball. I think the offensive has plenty of pieces, QB and OL issues aside.. this offseason, I hope they address the lack of playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
That problem with your scenario (QB) is, what good is similar production if your not saving a significant amount of money to sign other players? If the numbers that have been posted are correct, it's something like 10 million in dead money. If you pay a stop gap QB 6 million and you don't upgrade the position, what good is the extra 6 million in savings?
I think any time a draft nets more half or more than half of its players that end up being productive throughout their entire rookie contract and earn a second contract in the league afterward has to be considered a success.
So by the small sample I've seen out of this class, I think Gettleman's first draft is and will end up being a very solid group. I think the wildcard of the group will be Lorenzo Carter.
1st question: Let's assume Lauletta is NOT ready for 2019.. What do you do at QB? I don't think Eli's play justifies extending him and therefore restructuring isn't really an option. At 23.2mio/6.2mio dead money, you have to think that a Bridgewater would give similar production at a fraction of the 17mio cost?
2nd, 3 part question offensive line...
Center: What would you do? Khalil, the Panthers long time center is available, could be a gap filler as a free agent? Do you think we could grab one with an early 4th round pick that is starter ready?
Right Guard: Brown seems to be adequate and adequate is a win at this point. I'd like to see him return. What do you think Jamon Brown costs in terms of contract? Fluker was in similar position and he's on a 2.75mio deal, I think. Is Brown going to be similar or is he going to get Omameh money and what do you think he is worth?
Right Tackle: Wheeler is a gamer but I agree we can't rely on him to change who he is at this point. I heard this is a deep tackle draft and given RT is a bit less demand, do you think we can nab a starter in round 2? Perhaps, it's center that offers the better value as a free agent given tackles trade at a premium?
separately, I really think Collins gets franchised. It's not that expensive to get another year to evaluate him with a bit more talent introduced on the defensive side of the ball. I think the offensive has plenty of pieces, QB and OL issues aside.. this offseason, I hope they address the lack of playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
A new rookie or let Eli play in 2019, those are my 2 ideal options. If you open up the trade market for struggling clubs like OAK (Carr) or DET (Stafford)...I would listen to that as well.
But I don't want Bridgewater and Lauletta isn't the answer in my opinion.
OC...This is a very strong OC draft. Not saying you need to go in the offseason with that exact approach, but it is a nice fall back option.
RG, I am going to reserve judgement on Brown until the end of the year. But I do like what I see and it may be worth a team friendly multi year deal to keep him here. There needs to be a a backup plan for Wheeler, because I'm not confident he is a starting RT on a top 5 OL and that is how I want this team built.
I remember watching him play free as a rookie and it was obvious that was not his best spot. But I really can't tell whether he is as helpless at strong safety as everyone says or if he's just not used in a way that plays to his strength or maybe fan expectations are too high.
Also interesting comment about Vernon being on a different level than the rest of the edge guys. Easy to get frustrated with him as he doesn't rack up the sacks or disruptive plays that you expect for a guy with his salary but he's still a lot better than anything else we have and won't be nearly as easy to replace as some around here think.
" I see so many offenses have no issues getting the ball to their top receivers and it just seems like it is too much of a struggle with Beckham."
This is what stood out to me in your review because it's been one of my main concerns as well. I just don't get it? He is nearly unstoppable?! How many other teams if they had Odell would utilize the hell out of him?? To many.. More reasons why I think they need to look for a new OC.
One of the most amusing constancies on this board has been the desire to get rid of the better players on the team because they are not perfect and make too much money.
Sure we should get rid of Collins, about the only defensive player who can tackle. And we should replace him with a safety who can run all over the field and tackle AND cover.
How much worse is Collins at coverage than the other strong safeties in the league. If his strong point was coverage, then he'd be playing FS or corner.
No problem. Of course we already need to fill the two most expensive positions of quarterback and pass rusher.
Collins does two things better than anyone else on the defense. He runs all over the field and tackles, and he rushes the passer. Put him at any named position you like, but let him do those two things.
We have been spoiled with Eli in that he never misses time with injury. That is not just because he stays in the pocket. He knows when to get rid of the ball and he knows how to take a hit to minimize the impact. But our next QB will probably be injured from time to time, and the Giants shouldn't look for a statue just because he may play more games.
But it can also be an offense with an oft-injured QB.
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they get hurt like Mitch Trubisky, Aaron Rodgers, Deshaun Watson, etc., etc. and you wind up having to start guys like Chase Daniel or Brock Osweiler or you name the no good backup QB.
Not saying you're wrong. Just, it's not that easy.
And the Bears and Texans will be in the playoffs and we won't.
Yes guys get hurt. That's why you back them up with guys of similar ability. It's also why you coach sliding properly, running out of bounds, etc. Russell Wilson has made an art out of it. Lamar Jackson outrushed Barkley in college while also playing quarterback and never missed a game.
And this is where your strategy completely falls apart. Putting aside that there are few even close to Rodgers/Wilson ability, even getting a Watson/Trubisky level player requires using at worst a 1st round pick and likely a top 15 pick. So if you want multiple players of that caliber on your roster, you need to spend 2 firsts on the QB position, one of which will (if you're lucky) never see the field.
And then you either have to pay them >$25M per season after 5 years or use another 1st round pick on a QB. And it's far more likely you have to invest even more draft capital than this just to find 2 Trubisky-level QBs when you consider the bust rate of QBs.
Also never stays healthy.
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I agree with the assessments across the Oline and QB positions.
1st question: Let's assume Lauletta is NOT ready for 2019.. What do you do at QB? I don't think Eli's play justifies extending him and therefore restructuring isn't really an option. At 23.2mio/6.2mio dead money, you have to think that a Bridgewater would give similar production at a fraction of the 17mio cost?
2nd, 3 part question offensive line...
Center: What would you do? Khalil, the Panthers long time center is available, could be a gap filler as a free agent? Do you think we could grab one with an early 4th round pick that is starter ready?
Right Guard: Brown seems to be adequate and adequate is a win at this point. I'd like to see him return. What do you think Jamon Brown costs in terms of contract? Fluker was in similar position and he's on a 2.75mio deal, I think. Is Brown going to be similar or is he going to get Omameh money and what do you think he is worth?
Right Tackle: Wheeler is a gamer but I agree we can't rely on him to change who he is at this point. I heard this is a deep tackle draft and given RT is a bit less demand, do you think we can nab a starter in round 2? Perhaps, it's center that offers the better value as a free agent given tackles trade at a premium?
separately, I really think Collins gets franchised. It's not that expensive to get another year to evaluate him with a bit more talent introduced on the defensive side of the ball. I think the offensive has plenty of pieces, QB and OL issues aside.. this offseason, I hope they address the lack of playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
That problem with your scenario (QB) is, what good is similar production if your not saving a significant amount of money to sign other players? If the numbers that have been posted are correct, it's something like 10 million in dead money. If you pay a stop gap QB 6 million and you don't upgrade the position, what good is the extra 6 million in savings?
JO - Agree in principle but the cap numbers you are working off are wrong. Cutting Eli saves >17mio in cap space. Currently Eli is 23.2mio in cap space next year and ~6mio in dead cap if cut. Bottom line, what can you get for 17mio in free agency (not 10mio)? I can't imagine Bridgewater is more than 6-8mio (He's currently 6mio a year). I think, the Giants could extend Eli, reduce his cap number for 2019 but that would mean committing to him for 2020 and probably taking a cap hit in 2021 to make the same decision we'd be making now.
I know Sy doesnt like Bridgewater having read his reveiws prior. I'm certainly not going to question his judgement on that, he may be right. But is Bridgewater + a upgrage a RT via FA allow us to use our 1st and 2nd round picks to upgrade defensively?
I know many on here are ok with Eli continuing but I'm thinking the decline is clear in his play, I'd be really worried about 2019 never mind 2020 and 2021. It depends on what he'd play for ... but based on production 17mio is the absolute limit of his worth and I'd be very hesitant to offer that for multiple years there.
I'd argue, if you think Eli is your QB for 2019 at 23.2mio, it can only be logically to say he'll be good enough in 2020 to be worth extending so you need to extend but I would concede, until someone (and I can't) can present someone cheaper, the devil you know may be better. I just don't think Eli plays out his contract at 23.2mio next year.
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In comment 14205985 AussieGiants said:
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I agree with the assessments across the Oline and QB positions.
1st question: Let's assume Lauletta is NOT ready for 2019.. What do you do at QB? I don't think Eli's play justifies extending him and therefore restructuring isn't really an option. At 23.2mio/6.2mio dead money, you have to think that a Bridgewater would give similar production at a fraction of the 17mio cost?
2nd, 3 part question offensive line...
Center: What would you do? Khalil, the Panthers long time center is available, could be a gap filler as a free agent? Do you think we could grab one with an early 4th round pick that is starter ready?
Right Guard: Brown seems to be adequate and adequate is a win at this point. I'd like to see him return. What do you think Jamon Brown costs in terms of contract? Fluker was in similar position and he's on a 2.75mio deal, I think. Is Brown going to be similar or is he going to get Omameh money and what do you think he is worth?
Right Tackle: Wheeler is a gamer but I agree we can't rely on him to change who he is at this point. I heard this is a deep tackle draft and given RT is a bit less demand, do you think we can nab a starter in round 2? Perhaps, it's center that offers the better value as a free agent given tackles trade at a premium?
separately, I really think Collins gets franchised. It's not that expensive to get another year to evaluate him with a bit more talent introduced on the defensive side of the ball. I think the offensive has plenty of pieces, QB and OL issues aside.. this offseason, I hope they address the lack of playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
That problem with your scenario (QB) is, what good is similar production if your not saving a significant amount of money to sign other players? If the numbers that have been posted are correct, it's something like 10 million in dead money. If you pay a stop gap QB 6 million and you don't upgrade the position, what good is the extra 6 million in savings?
JO - Agree in principle but the cap numbers you are working off are wrong. Cutting Eli saves >17mio in cap space. Currently Eli is 23.2mio in cap space next year and ~6mio in dead cap if cut. Bottom line, what can you get for 17mio in free agency (not 10mio)? I can't imagine Bridgewater is more than 6-8mio (He's currently 6mio a year). I think, the Giants could extend Eli, reduce his cap number for 2019 but that would mean committing to him for 2020 and probably taking a cap hit in 2021 to make the same decision we'd be making now.
I know Sy doesnt like Bridgewater having read his reveiws prior. I'm certainly not going to question his judgement on that, he may be right. But is Bridgewater + a upgrage a RT via FA allow us to use our 1st and 2nd round picks to upgrade defensively?
I know many on here are ok with Eli continuing but I'm thinking the decline is clear in his play, I'd be really worried about 2019 never mind 2020 and 2021. It depends on what he'd play for ... but based on production 17mio is the absolute limit of his worth and I'd be very hesitant to offer that for multiple years there.
I'd argue, if you think Eli is your QB for 2019 at 23.2mio, it can only be logically to say he'll be good enough in 2020 to be worth extending so you need to extend but I would concede, until someone (and I can't) can present someone cheaper, the devil you know may be better. I just don't think Eli plays out his contract at 23.2mio next year.
I was going onff the numbers Diver Down has been posting. I don't know whose numbers are correct. The ones he had posted said it was 10 million in dead cap money.