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Do you think Eli Manning is holding back the Giants offense?

Sean : 12/5/2018 12:24 pm
This isnít meant to be a pro-Eli or anti-Eli thread. Itís just an honest question with regards to the state of the Giants offense 3/4 through the season.

I listened to The Ringer NFL podcast today where Mike Lombardi said the Giants would be competing for the NFC East if they had better QB play. I see tweets every week of plays where WRís are running free and Eli is not seeing them.

On the other side, he can still make the throws (should have had a game winner in OT last week). He played nearly perfect games in Houston & against TB. We all know the status of the OL from earlier this year.

Where do you fall with regards to Eliís impact on the overall success of the 2018 Giants?
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RE: RE: RE: RE: The thing is..  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/6/2018 1:06 pm : link
In comment 14207576 dep026 said:
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In comment 14207556 Dave in Hoboken said:


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"May or may not be the goods." We can literally say this about every draft pick ever at the time of the draft. No one knows for sure how any player is going to turn out until they play for a few years. Under the 'may or may not be the goods' mindset, since we can say that about anyone, what you're pretty much saying is keep Eli until we know for a fact we have the next guy. There is no knowing for a fact, though.



See IMO, we have a shit ton of holes. RT, C, Edge, MLB, FS, and QB. You go QB in round 1. No pick in the 3rd round. You are really putting all your eggs in a basket. Now if you're picking where the Giants are next spring, and you truly believe in the Qb who is available. Then, yes - you absolutely take him.

I just think there are too many fans are in the mindset to change the QB to change him. That is not how you rebuild.


Obviously it has to be a QB they believe in. Not just some guy that they're lukewarm on.

That being said, you can fix some of the other holes you mentioned with your other picks. We don't have a 3rd round pick this upcoming draft. Okay. But we still have the rest of our picks. And we still have all of our picks in the all of the drafts after that; and since we all agree this isn't a one year fix, that works out just fine. Also, we can fix these other holes you mentioned one at a time, but until you find that next guy and he has some NFL experience under his belt, the team is still going to struggle without a QB.
RE: The NFC East is way down this year...  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:06 pm : link
In comment 14207572 bw in dc said:
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So keeping that perspective, I think Lombardi is pretty spot on. If the QB was able to make more plays, we'd likely have 2 more wins - easily - and right in the thick of it.

I'm not sure who said it above - maybe Keith? - but we have some of the best weapons in the league. While the oline has not been the Dallas Wall of the '90s, a QB with more mobile skills could help offset some of that.

So, indeed, Eli is holding the offense back. Significantly. And beyond his physical limitations, some via age and some just via DNA, Eli just doesn't look to be consistently reliable in making the best decisions where to go with the ball. And that was one of his key attributes in his prime.


Pure nonsense again from you. Why cant we say with a better OL we would be winning the division? With a better defense we would be winning the division? Cause what if we had Dallas' OL or their LBs? Or what if we had Phillys/Washingtons DL?

We have a great RB and WR. That is not the best in the league. Lets face it.... EE has been a total bust this year. SS hasnt been that guy we all thought he would be.

And our Ol hasnt been the Dallas OL of the 90s? Really going there? Our OL has more holes than the the cheerleaders in Debbie Does Dallas.

And yet we are the highest scoring team in the division.... here's my argument. Maybe if we had defenses as good as the other teams in the league - we would be in first place. right?
RE: RE: RE: I disagree on a few of them,  
cosmicj : 12/6/2018 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14207574 Bill L said:
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There is no control. Honestly surprised anyone here passed a freshman science class.


Of course, there is no control. This is modern life we are talking about.
It's always something that can't be measured regarding Eli.  
Keith : 12/6/2018 1:07 pm : link
IN his prime, was it the WR/TE running wrong routes which caused all the INT's? No way of knowing. The system wasn't suited for Eli which is why he threw so many INT's and didn't have consistency. No way of knowing. Not having a running game was holding Eli back. No way of knowing. Is it the OL or Eli? No way of knowing, yet Eli gets the benefit of the doubt all the time from some people. Eli is the issue, IMO. Nobody is stating anything as a fact, I've written IMO about 100 times. For people like Bill who aren't that bright or are just old and don't understand the lingo, it means...IN MY OPINION. If only everyone was as smart as the legendary Bill L who knows everything.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The thing is..  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:08 pm : link
In comment 14207582 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:


Obviously it has to be a QB they believe in. Not just some guy that they're lukewarm on.

That being said, you can fix some of the other holes you mentioned with your other picks. We don't have a 3rd round pick this upcoming draft. Okay. But we still have the rest of our picks. And we still have all of our picks in the all of the drafts after that; and since we all agree this isn't a one year fix, that works out just fine. Also, we can fix these other holes you mentioned one at a time, but until you find that next guy and he has some NFL experience under his belt, the team is still going to struggle without a QB.


And if the team believes in the QB in round 1. By all means they should take them. I'm saying it wont be the ned of the world if we get an edge rusher in the first, right tackle in the 2nd, and a center in the 4th. If those 3 picks pan out - we will be a better team not only for next year - but also for the future and whoeever replaces Eli.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The thing is..  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/6/2018 1:10 pm : link
In comment 14207589 dep026 said:
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In comment 14207582 Dave in Hoboken said:


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Obviously it has to be a QB they believe in. Not just some guy that they're lukewarm on.

That being said, you can fix some of the other holes you mentioned with your other picks. We don't have a 3rd round pick this upcoming draft. Okay. But we still have the rest of our picks. And we still have all of our picks in the all of the drafts after that; and since we all agree this isn't a one year fix, that works out just fine. Also, we can fix these other holes you mentioned one at a time, but until you find that next guy and he has some NFL experience under his belt, the team is still going to struggle without a QB.



And if the team believes in the QB in round 1. By all means they should take them. I'm saying it wont be the ned of the world if we get an edge rusher in the first, right tackle in the 2nd, and a center in the 4th. If those 3 picks pan out - we will be a better team not only for next year - but also for the future and whoeever replaces Eli.


And if we are much better team next year and our record reflects that, where are we getting that QB from since we won't have a top 5-10 draft pick?

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The thing is..  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:12 pm : link
In comment 14207590 Dave in Hoboken said:
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And if we are much better team next year and our record reflects that, where are we getting that QB from since we won't have a top 5-10 draft pick?


Thats the million dollar question. A question that over half the league is figuring out. Look at what Detroit has. A very good QB who they cant win or get rid of. Look at Washington. They made a dumb trade/extension and now have nothing to show for it.

Finding a QB is pretty damn hard.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The thing is..  
Thegratefulhead : 12/6/2018 1:12 pm : link
In comment 14207576 dep026 said:
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I just think there are too many fans are in the mindset to change the QB to change him. That is not how you rebuild.
No one wants to change him just to change him. He is an overpaid, aging and declining QB. The team's record since the end of 2011 is well below .500. You don't know if a QB is going to able play in the NFL until he gets experience(Eli has said this). It might take us a few QBs to get it right. We don't have time to build a good enough team to win with Eli with his limited abilities(We would have to be dominant in many other areas) Let's see what Kyle has for the rest of year. Then next year, cut Eli and draft/trade sign another QB, have a preseason battle and move on. Start the process now.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The thing is..  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/6/2018 1:15 pm : link
In comment 14207593 dep026 said:
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In comment 14207590 Dave in Hoboken said:


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And if we are much better team next year and our record reflects that, where are we getting that QB from since we won't have a top 5-10 draft pick?




Thats the million dollar question. A question that over half the league is figuring out. Look at what Detroit has. A very good QB who they cant win or get rid of. Look at Washington. They made a dumb trade/extension and now have nothing to show for it.

Finding a QB is pretty damn hard.


And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief.

All those holes you were referring to a couple of posts ago? Some of that money could go towards filling a hole or two next year..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The thing is..  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:17 pm : link
In comment 14207595 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 14207576 dep026 said:


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I just think there are too many fans are in the mindset to change the QB to change him. That is not how you rebuild.

No one wants to change him just to change him. He is an overpaid, aging and declining QB. The team's record since the end of 2011 is well below .500. You don't know if a QB is going to able play in the NFL until he gets experience(Eli has said this). It might take us a few QBs to get it right. We don't have time to build a good enough team to win with Eli with his limited abilities(We would have to be dominant in many other areas) Let's see what Kyle has for the rest of year. Then next year, cut Eli and draft/trade sign another QB, have a preseason battle and move on. Start the process now.


Eli Manning is not the main reason we have stunk for years. You can say he is in decline, but there are many more factors that have led to our downfall.

It might take a few QBs to get it right? Wait, what? That makes no sense. You have to get it right and just putting people in there doesnt make sense nor should it be done.

And why does building a team have to be for Eli? Wouldnt getting a better OL do wonders for Barkley? I mean, if he is producing with this shit OL - imagine what he would do with just an average one or believe it or not - a GOOD OL?

And you want to play a player just to play him even if he isnt ready? Wow.
This is ridiculous at this point.  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/6/2018 1:18 pm : link
I've never seen such insanity in re: to one player before in any sport in my life. It's actually hilarious at this point.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The thing is..  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14207597 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:

And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief.

All those holes you were referring to a couple of posts ago? Some of that money could go towards filling a hole or two next year..


Didnt we spend over 200 million on a defense that collapsed after just one year? Didnt we just sign a LT to the most expensive contract in lineman history for average results? Didnt we just give over 5 million a year to a guy who was cut midyear? Eli's contract hasnt restricted us from getting some very expensive players.

Again, you dont rebuild through FA. You rebuild from the draft.
RE: RE: The NFC East is way down this year...  
bw in dc : 12/6/2018 1:20 pm : link
In comment 14207583 dep026 said:
Quote:


Pure nonsense again from you. Why cant we say with a better OL we would be winning the division? With a better defense we would be winning the division? Cause what if we had Dallas' OL or their LBs? Or what if we had Phillys/Washingtons DL?

We have a great RB and WR. That is not the best in the league. Lets face it.... EE has been a total bust this year. SS hasnt been that guy we all thought he would be.

And our Ol hasnt been the Dallas OL of the 90s? Really going there? Our OL has more holes than the the cheerleaders in Debbie Does Dallas.

And yet we are the highest scoring team in the division.... here's my argument. Maybe if we had defenses as good as the other teams in the league - we would be in first place. right?


Well, we knew coming into the season the defense wasn't a strength. So the expectation was, at least how I was interpreting the off-season, that we'd be competitive by being a prolific offense. That's why we invested so many cap dollars into the offense during the off-season.

Rebuilt oline (free agency & draft), re-invested in OBJ, high draft pick in RB, hired offensive guru.

Right?

The question was if Eli was holding the offense back. If you think Eli has been in prime form was his decision making, then I underestimated your understanding of the game.
Dave  
cosmicj : 12/6/2018 1:21 pm : link
"And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief."

I agree this 100%. And that's why I think the Giants need to release Eli in February no matter what. Eli's past and achievements are clouding everyone's judgement, judgement about his on-the-field-performance, what is his true market price, how the elite NCAA QBs project into the NFL and what kind of team to build. This has to stop.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The thing is..  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/6/2018 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14207601 dep026 said:
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In comment 14207597 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:



And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief.

All those holes you were referring to a couple of posts ago? Some of that money could go towards filling a hole or two next year..



Didnt we spend over 200 million on a defense that collapsed after just one year? Didnt we just sign a LT to the most expensive contract in lineman history for average results? Didnt we just give over 5 million a year to a guy who was cut midyear? Eli's contract hasnt restricted us from getting some very expensive players.

Again, you dont rebuild through FA. You rebuild from the draft.


I didn't say you rebuild towards FA. I said you can fill a hole or two in FA and the draft is obviously the driving force in the rebuild.

But that doesn't mean the team shouldn't use money available to them to try to fill a hole or two. It's all about signing the right guys. Look at Antonio Piece, Kareem McKenzie, and Plax all signed in 2005 and all were huge factors in winning SB 42.
RE: This is ridiculous at this point.  
cosmicj : 12/6/2018 1:23 pm : link
In comment 14207599 Dave in Hoboken said:
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I've never seen such insanity in re: to one player before in any sport in my life. It's actually hilarious at this point.


Haha. Reading BBI the last year or so has left me speculating about certain posters experiencing a sort of midlife-crisis-by-proxy. You wonder whether there is some sort of neurotic struggle going on.
RE: RE: He's holding back the evolution  
hitdog42 : 12/6/2018 1:23 pm : link
In comment 14207430 dep026 said:
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In comment 14207419 hitdog42 said:


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of the giants.
the offense, i mean yeah sure he can't move well and that holds back a lot of things- but the team stinks so who really cares.
him being here still at 37 with some prime skill level guys delays them having the chance to be great by like 2 more yrs every year he stays.



So you're assuming the guy who replaces him is going to have a better impact. Pretty bold statement.

And by the way.... OBJ and Barkley are having pretty good years. Lets not act like they arent getting theirs.


im assuming its a waste of time holding out hope that a immobile 37yr old will find a fountain of youth, and because of that the organization ins unable to move on.

that is all--- not assuming anything-- thus i said judging if he is holding back the offense... its hard to say, but the organization, yes its obvious they cant move on until he is gone
RE: RE: RE: The NFC East is way down this year...  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14207603 bw in dc said:
Quote:


Well, we knew coming into the season the defense wasn't a strength. So the expectation was, at least how I was interpreting the off-season, that we'd be competitive by being a prolific offense. That's why we invested so many cap dollars into the offense during the off-season.

Rebuilt oline (free agency & draft), re-invested in OBJ, high draft pick in RB, hired offensive guru.

Right?

The question was if Eli was holding the offense back. If you think Eli has been in prime form was his decision making, then I underestimated your understanding of the game.


We didnt think the defense was going to be a strength? So all of the offseason praise Vernon got? Trading for Ogletree? Snacks? Collins? Jackrabbit? Tomlinson in his 2nd year? I think many people had high hopes for the defense...

And the investments in OL failed. Shurmur hasnt been that great. And EE/SS have failed to get better. Barkley has been great. OBJ has been good. Hernandez has been solid. The rest of the players havent. I dont see how this is arguable.
lol  
Keith : 12/6/2018 1:26 pm : link
yeah none of that is even arguable. Why is anyone wasting their time?
RE: lol  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:28 pm : link
In comment 14207616 Keith said:
Quote:
yeah none of that is even arguable. Why is anyone wasting their time?


Then whats false?
First off,  
Keith : 12/6/2018 1:30 pm : link
lets start with the skill players. OBJ is good and none of them have gotten better. How the hell do we know that when ou QB can't get them the ball? High expectations for the defense??? what a load of crap that is. Nobody had high expectations of this defense after last year and then not adding much talent.
RE: First off,  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:34 pm : link
In comment 14207619 Keith said:
Quote:
lets start with the skill players. OBJ is good and none of them have gotten better. How the hell do we know that when ou QB can't get them the ball? High expectations for the defense??? what a load of crap that is. Nobody had high expectations of this defense after last year and then not adding much talent.


Oh yeah. I am sorry I forgot it is Eli's fault that Engram has done next to nothing this year. I am sorry I forgot that SS dropped key passes against Jax and Chicago with the game on the line. And the QB cant get them the ball? Odell is on pace for a career high in receptions.

And we pumped a lot of money on the defense. High draft picks and high investments dollar wise on these players. You expected them to play poorly? Ok.
Hereís the thing  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2018 1:35 pm : link
Heís not the same QB. Heís likely not getting any better and isnít good enough to carry this team?

What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster.

It might get worse replacing him but itís not likely to get better with him.

Hereís what will happen:

Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.
RE: Hereís the thing  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14207625 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Heís not the same QB. Heís likely not getting any better and isnít good enough to carry this team?

What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster.

It might get worse replacing him but itís not likely to get better with him.

Hereís what will happen:

Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.


What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable?

What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?
RE: RE: Hereís the thing  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/6/2018 1:38 pm : link
In comment 14207627 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14207625 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Heís not the same QB. Heís likely not getting any better and isnít good enough to carry this team?

What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster.

It might get worse replacing him but itís not likely to get better with him.

Hereís what will happen:

Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.



What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable?

What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?


You literally can't worry about 'what if?' You could play the what if game for the next 10 years. So, keep Eli for the next decade?

People really, really overthink this. I've never seen anything like this before ever.
RE: RE: Hereís the thing  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2018 1:38 pm : link
In comment 14207627 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14207625 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Heís not the same QB. Heís likely not getting any better and isnít good enough to carry this team?

What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster.

It might get worse replacing him but itís not likely to get better with him.

Hereís what will happen:

Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.



What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable?

What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?


What if we draft the next Luck or Rodgers?

What if having an average QB improves the offense enough to become a contender?
I posted some of this elsewhere today  
PaulBlakeTSU : 12/6/2018 1:38 pm : link
what's holding back the team is that there is a serious lack of talent on the team, specifically on the offensive line.

For years, the roster has been barren with a few highlight-grabbing skill players but on a foundation of crap.


1. The Giants had historic levels of games lost due to injuries over a several year period of time

Here is where the Giants ranked in Football Outsiders's Adjusted Games Lost to Injury* (1 is least games lost, 32 is most games lost)

2017: 25
2016: 7
2015: 32
2014: 32
2013: 32
2012: 25
2011: 26
2010: 22
2008-2010 average: 14

It is astounding. Think of all the Giants players with potential/production whose careers were completely cut short and needed to be replaced? Steve Smith, Terrell Thomas, Kenny Phillips, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Ahmad Bradshaw, and David Wilson. Throw in Chad Jones's car accident and the two Sintim ACL tears before the start of his third season

Teams have limited draft/FA capital and when it has to be used to constantly replace high-producing guys, other parts of the team are going to suffer.

Look at how many "skill position" players the Giants thought they were set with had their careers shortened dramatically. That caused Reese/Ross to keep trying to refill those skill positions with key draft picks and there was a residual effect.

2. Jerry Reese and Mark Ross ignored signs that the offensive line from pre 2010 was deteriorating, and instead of putting a lot of draft resources into making sure it was strong enough to protect their franchise non-running QB, they invested in athletes whose measurables wowed them.

In Reese's (and Ross's) entire tenure, 12 drafts, the Giants took 11 Offensive linemen compared with 9 RBs, 9 WRs, and 5 receiving TEs.

By comparison, the Patriots took 21 offensive linemen and 5 RBs in that span.
Can we agree that the defense was terrible last year?  
Keith : 12/6/2018 1:39 pm : link
What money did we pump into the defense from last year to make them better??

SS is so underrated. He's not being used the right way because we barely get him the ball. Every WR has drops, can we acknowledge that? Or is it ok only to acknowledge that every QB has INT's so we shouldn't hold Eli accountable?

Engram has been disappointing, but again, we are not using him to the best of his abilities. He's a guy that will do damage in space, but we just can't get him the ball. Our QB looks for a read and then starts hearing footsteps, makes it kind of hard. Also makes it hard for receivers when they don't get consistent looks.

So on one hand you say OBJ is set for some career highs, but on the other hand he's only been good. Can you explain?
RE: RE: RE: Hereís the thing  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:40 pm : link
In comment 14207629 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:

You literally can't worry about 'what if?' You could play the what if game for the next 10 years. So, keep Eli for the next decade?

People really, really overthink this. I've never seen anything like this before ever.


My what "ifs" were in response to the prior odd stance.

This isnt hard. You replace Eli when you find the right person to do so. If its through the draft, FA, trade, or whatever. You jsut dont replace him to replace him though. That makes absolutely no sense.

So if it means you replace him in 2020, then thats when it will be. We arent a QB away from contending. So if there is an edge rusher or OL that grade out higher than a QB, you take them.

You're right. I've never seen anything like this before either.
RE: RE: Yes Eli is in decline  
USAF NYG Fan : 12/6/2018 1:40 pm : link
In comment 14207186 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14207176 USAF NYG Fan said:


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I also see decline in Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, etc. The only one of their era I don't see in decline is Brees. However, he is still a top half of the league QB. As the OL improves, so does Eli. I don't think that's a coincidence.

The only "Elite" season I think Eli had was 2011. Ironically when he was asked if he thinks he's Elite.

I don't think Eli is holding the team back but he's no longer the spark that can push them forward. Honestly, that's fine with me. Barkley is the spark now. A solid run game and pass rush is truly what the team needs. The team is a run first offense now but Shurmur hasn't appeared to have accepted that yet.

Unless there is a great QB prospect that they can go after in the draft, I feel the team is better off drafting OL. Often times it's a choice between a good run blocking OLmen or a pass blocking one. If that's the case, go after a great run blocking one. I don't care if it's a passing league. The run sets up the pass far better then it does the other way around. That hasn't changed. After that, pass rushers are a big need.

Gurley, Elliot, and Barkley are the top 3 rushers right now. Cowboys and Rams are top 10 rushing offenses. Giants are a bottom 10 rushing offense. What's that tell you? Most of the teams leading their division having great rushers.

Again, the Giants' do better rushing the ball. They have improved (to include Eli) when the OL plays better. Eli's stats are still top 10 (barely) according to NFL.com with what is still a sub-standard OL. I'd say he's still at least middle of the league because like most say, stats can be misleading. However, he's still a solid starter in this league.

RUN THE DAMN BALL! Improve the OL in the off-season as the priority. Pass rushers being as a solid 1B in priority. Get a new QB ONLY if they are enamored with one.



Except run first offenses donít win in todayís NFL.

Sure Eli has improved as the oline has played better but those werenít elite QB performances that can carry a team. How much better can the rest of the roster be built up to make up for not having a QB who can carry you to a win.

It also has to be kept in context that those ďbetterĒ performances were against a bad 49ers team, a Bucs defense that is worse than ours, a Philly defense missing everyone. He wasnít great against the Bears.


A little late getting back to you but ....

The league passes the ball more than it runs the ball, I'm not disputing this. I'm saying you still need to run the ball. You still need to effectively run the ball to setup the pass and that works far more effectively than the other way around.

6 of the 8 division leaders are top 10 in the league for rushing vs passing plays; Patriots, Texans, Cowboys, Bears, Saints, and Rams. Giants, they are in the bottom 5.

Eli had nearly a perfect game against the Bucs and regardless of how bad they are, his performance was better than every other QB that faced them. The Eagles pass rush was still good and that's what you look at when determining OL play. I thought Eli did his job well during the Bears game.
RE: First off,  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 12/6/2018 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14207619 Keith said:
Quote:
lets start with the skill players. OBJ is good and none of them have gotten better. How the hell do we know that when ou QB can't get them the ball? High expectations for the defense??? what a load of crap that is. Nobody had high expectations of this defense after last year and then not adding much talent.


He can't get them the ball? So who is he completing passes to 68% of the time he manages to throw one then? Are those imaginary receivers?
You thought Eli did his job well against hte Bears??  
Keith : 12/6/2018 1:43 pm : link
He was terrible in the first half. Then we come out in the second half and we score a TD where he's not asked to pass the ball. We come out running and having success running and then OBJ threw a TD. Eli wasn't bad for the remainder of the second half after that, but was he really good? I guess the bar is pretty low right now.
RE: Can we agree that the defense was terrible last year?  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:45 pm : link
In comment 14207636 Keith said:
Quote:
What money did we pump into the defense from last year to make them better??

SS is so underrated. He's not being used the right way because we barely get him the ball. Every WR has drops, can we acknowledge that? Or is it ok only to acknowledge that every QB has INT's so we shouldn't hold Eli accountable?

Engram has been disappointing, but again, we are not using him to the best of his abilities. He's a guy that will do damage in space, but we just can't get him the ball. Our QB looks for a read and then starts hearing footsteps, makes it kind of hard. Also makes it hard for receivers when they don't get consistent looks.

So on one hand you say OBJ is set for some career highs, but on the other hand he's only been good. Can you explain?


1. Well we brought in a MLB that everyone seemed pretty stoked about. We had some quality guys returning. I think many peoiple thought the defense would be at least better than 2017. Maybe not 2016, but definitely not this bad.
2. SS is a solid player. EE has been bad. But if they are being used wrong - thats coaching.

As far as OBJ. He's been good. Great? In some games he has been. I dont think he has been bad. I dont think he has hurt the Giants whatsoever. I understand teams are taking him away with bracket coverages and double teams. I dont think he has had the impact like Barkley. I know many of the posters here will blame Eli not getting him or missing him a few times. Thats fine.

But he has been our 2nd best player. I see nothing wrong with that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Hereís the thing  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/6/2018 1:45 pm : link
In comment 14207638 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14207629 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:



You literally can't worry about 'what if?' You could play the what if game for the next 10 years. So, keep Eli for the next decade?

People really, really overthink this. I've never seen anything like this before ever.



My what "ifs" were in response to the prior odd stance.

This isnt hard. You replace Eli when you find the right person to do so. If its through the draft, FA, trade, or whatever. You jsut dont replace him to replace him though. That makes absolutely no sense.

So if it means you replace him in 2020, then thats when it will be. We arent a QB away from contending. So if there is an edge rusher or OL that grade out higher than a QB, you take them.

You're right. I've never seen anything like this before either.


"When the right person is there to do so."

But as you said, you never know for sure. Any QB can be the next Gabbert. So, maybe since they'll never know for sure and any player can bust at anytime, they should just trade the picks for proven NFL players. The mindset makes no sense.

The one fact is that only constant on this team/offense for the past 6-7 years now is Eli. The head coach has been changed multiple times. New coaching staff. New GM. The OL has been turned over again. New WRs. New RB. New TE. Literally everything is new except the one constant.
Just because things are new....  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:49 pm : link
doesnt mean they are better, right?
Ok,  
Keith : 12/6/2018 1:49 pm : link
so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling?
RE: Just because things are new....  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/6/2018 1:51 pm : link
In comment 14207655 dep026 said:
Quote:
doesnt mean they are better, right?


No. But by that mindset, no QB ever should lose his job, or retire, or get traded ever.
RE: Ok,  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:52 pm : link
In comment 14207656 Keith said:
Quote:
so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling?


2 underperforming cancerous players for a legit MLB team leader? To go along with former ALL-PRO members and highly paid players? I thought they would be better than this. You're selling that you thought they would be this bad?
RE: RE: Just because things are new....  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:53 pm : link
In comment 14207658 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 14207655 dep026 said:


Quote:


doesnt mean they are better, right?



No. But by that mindset, no QB ever should lose his job, or retire, or get traded ever.


No, he is going too. It could be this offseason. It could be in 2020.
RE: RE: Ok,  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2018 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14207659 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14207656 Keith said:


Quote:


so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling?

This defense had one good corner back, a bunch of unproven players in the secondary and unproven pass rushers, and you thought theyíd be better?



2 underperforming cancerous players for a legit MLB team leader? To go along with former ALL-PRO members and highly paid players? I thought they would be better than this. You're selling that you thought they would be this bad?
Our secondary  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 1:56 pm : link
was....

Jenkins - pro bowler
Apple - first round pick
Collins - all pro
unproven FS/Nickel.

They should have been a lot better than what they became.
RE: RE: Ok,  
Keith : 12/6/2018 1:57 pm : link
In comment 14207659 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14207656 Keith said:


Quote:


so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling?



2 underperforming cancerous players for a legit MLB team leader? To go along with former ALL-PRO members and highly paid players? I thought they would be better than this. You're selling that you thought they would be this bad?


I'm not sure what they really did to improve. I don't think JPP is cancerous either. I never thought Ogletree was going to turn us from a terrible defense to a great defense. I expected maybe marginal improvement. The offense has been way more disappointing to me. We have way too much talent at the skill position players to be this inept.
Ok....  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 2:00 pm : link
lets say all of what you are saying is true?

Did you expect the defense to give up more PPG this year than last year? I am sorry, but thats a really tough sell for me.
RE: RE: Hereís the thing  
christian : 12/6/2018 2:03 pm : link
In comment 14207627 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14207625 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Heís not the same QB. Heís likely not getting any better and isnít good enough to carry this team?

What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster.

It might get worse replacing him but itís not likely to get better with him.

Hereís what will happen:

Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.



What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable?

What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?


The medium-term future of the Giants is completely dependent on whether the management believes they can improve the talent of the team to championship level in the window of good play Manning has left.

Looking at the number of positions that are deeply flawed on this team going into the off-season; RT, RG, C, WR depth, TE, FS, SS, CB depth, DE/Edge -- I don't see those two windows aligning.

The Giants will get better with some better players and build on this year, health permitting. Doesn't need to be "what if." But does that get you into the championship conversation?
RE: It's always something that can't be measured regarding Eli.  
Bill L : 12/6/2018 2:04 pm : link
In comment 14207588 Keith said:
Quote:
IN his prime, was it the WR/TE running wrong routes which caused all the INT's? No way of knowing. The system wasn't suited for Eli which is why he threw so many INT's and didn't have consistency. No way of knowing. Not having a running game was holding Eli back. No way of knowing. Is it the OL or Eli? No way of knowing, yet Eli gets the benefit of the doubt all the time from some people. Eli is the issue, IMO. Nobody is stating anything as a fact, I've written IMO about 100 times. For people like Bill who aren't that bright or are just old and don't understand the lingo, it means...IN MY OPINION. If only everyone was as smart as the legendary Bill L who knows everything.


You see the paradox there, right?
RE: Ok,  
Thegratefulhead : 12/6/2018 2:06 pm : link
In comment 14207656 Keith said:
Quote:
so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling?
What he is selling, is anything that he can say, to make it seem reasonable(only to him) to keep trotting Eli out htere for the rest of this year, next year, and until the next Aaron Rodgers or sure thing is available(will never happen).
RE: RE: Ok,  
ajr2456 : 12/6/2018 2:08 pm : link
In comment 14207677 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14207656 Keith said:


Quote:


so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling?

What he is selling, is anything that he can say, to make it seem reasonable(only to him) to keep trotting Eli out htere for the rest of this year, next year, and until the next Aaron Rodgers or sure thing is available(will never happen).


Pretty much
RE: RE: Ok,  
dep026 : 12/6/2018 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14207677 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14207656 Keith said:


Quote:


so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling?

What he is selling, is anything that he can say, to make it seem reasonable(only to him) to keep trotting Eli out htere for the rest of this year, next year, and until the next Aaron Rodgers or sure thing is available(will never happen).


lol. Wow.
RE: You thought Eli did his job well against hte Bears??  
USAF NYG Fan : 12/6/2018 8:01 pm : link
In comment 14207646 Keith said:
Quote:
He was terrible in the first half. Then we come out in the second half and we score a TD where he's not asked to pass the ball. We come out running and having success running and then OBJ threw a TD. Eli wasn't bad for the remainder of the second half after that, but was he really good? I guess the bar is pretty low right now.


Yes. Yes, I think he did his job well against the Bears. The same Bears that have 2 players in the defensive backfield in the top 5 for interceptions. The interception going to Kyle Fuller who has the 2nd most interceptions. The Bears who have one of the best defenses in the league.

I'm not saying Eli is some great QB but he's not holding the team back either. He's in the middle of the pack and I don't see anyone better available or coming up in the 2019 draft. Don't see it from last year's draft class either.
Elisha Manning...  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/7/2018 2:27 am : link
This board has always been almost schizophrenic in response to discussing Eli, partly because so many here want desperately for him to be seen as great, a HOF player.

He might be, but it sure as heck won't be a shoo in choice like so many other QBs of his generation, like Peyton, Brees, Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, Rodgers... The stats just don't shine bright enough for Eli relative to his peers, and every one who watches football knows that except us Giants fans.

Eli has been great at moments, and he's been incredibly heroic in certain games, like his play in the arctic cold NFC championship over Favre in Green Bay, and in the rain versus Harbaugh's brutal 9ers D in SF. The real Road Warrior.

But he hasn't been a great QB over vast expanses of his career. The team's record with him starting is barely above .500... And it's not all been on his supporting staff.

But give him an OL, with two great future HOF team mates like OBJ and Saquon Barkley, and


Eli will be fine. He hasn't lost that much from who he was when he won Lombardi trophies.

He wasn't great then, and he won't need to be great in 2019. Give him an OL to protect him, and let Saquon and Odell be the superstars.

Let Eli be Eli, "cool as the other side of the pillow" and he will be enough.
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