Do you think Eli Manning is holding back the Giants offense?

I love the guy, but he's done, IMO. He flashes some good plays now and then, but not nearly enough to overcome all the bad ones these days.

This thread is 100% going to turn into what you don't want it to. Pro-Eli vs Anti-Eli with the same cast of characters on each side.

This is why I said if I were Eli, I'd have taken the benching last season if for no other reason than to exonerate myself.

Right now, they've changed a lot of other things, and the results remain the same.

Whether you think so or not you're just going to have to sit back and watch what he does for the rest of this year, probably next year too.

Might as well just root for the guy.

I think the Eli of 2009-2011, or even 2014-2015 could have won another couple games.

I don't think an average QB would have this team doing any better, though.

So yeah, I think Eli not being a top ten QB anymore is holding the team back, but it's not like those are easy to get.

Sure, there are better guys in the league than him, so of course our offense would be better with a better QB. But given how bad the line has been for much of the year, I don't think we'd be much better. The team has lots of flaws, and while obviously Eli's play hasn't been at the top level of NFL QB play, I think it's pretty unrealistic to say we'd be a contending team but for him. And relative to a guy we might've drafted, no, I don't think he's holding us back in 2018 compared to Darnold or one of the other guys.

(That said, competing for the NFC East is a low bar - one more win and we'd reasonably be competing for the division, and sure, better QB play could be worth that).

This notion is absolutely ridiculous. Blaming one guy for an entire offense's failures is lame (Lombardi sucks by the way. The worst QB evaluator of all time).

In the last 5 games we are averaging nearly 30 PPG and have won 3 of 4, so the offense is getting better. People are forgetting that the first half of the year outside the Eagles game, we were WRETCHED running the ball, the defnese never got a stop when needed. And Shurmur made mistakes constantly.

These notions are silly cause you have to think back which games did Eli cost us. Not the ones where he played poorly. But games where he single handily missed throws to lose games. People can argue that Jacksonville game, and that may be the only one.

is averaging 30 ppg?

as the Oline goes, so goes Eli. He's a bit shell shocked and immobile. The fact is he's 37 and costs a big % of the cap. Time to retire him.

In comment 14206590 Keith said:

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is averaging 30 ppg?

I meant to say last 4 games. Not 5 games. We are averaging 30 PPG in the last 4.

you can probably claim Team ABC would have a couple more wins with 'better QB play'.

The real question is where you rank Eli among the current starters league-wide and how easy it would be to get 'better QB play'.

Unfortunately at this point I think Eli is in the bottom 1/3 of QBs and even someone like Alex Smith would've led to a couple more wins. Though I'm certainly glad we didn't trade assets and give him that ridiculous contract (injury aside).

PC is. SB should be rushing much more. Eli�s effectiveness would be much better imo, esp. since the OL SEEMS to be giving him better protection

In comment 14206587 dep026 said:

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This notion is absolutely ridiculous. Blaming one guy for an entire offense's failures is lame (Lombardi sucks by the way. The worst QB evaluator of all time). In the last 5 games we are averaging nearly 30 PPG and have won 3 of 4, so the offense is getting better. People are forgetting that the first half of the year outside the Eagles game, we were WRETCHED running the ball, the defnese never got a stop when needed. And Shurmur made mistakes constantly. These notions are silly cause you have to think back which games did Eli cost us. Not the ones where he played poorly. But games where he single handily missed throws to lose games. People can argue that Jacksonville game, and that may be the only one.

Philly game 2. That INT to end the half took points off the board (Rosas is nearly automatic) and was a momentum swinger.

over the last 4 or 5 games.

In comment 14206594 Big Blue '56 said:

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PC is. SB should be rushing much more. Eli�s effectiveness would be much better imo, esp. since the OL SEEMS to be giving him better protection

Can you be certain that Eli isn't checking out of runs against stacked boxes?

In comment 14206598 Keith said:

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over the last 4 or 5 games.

If you generously round 29.25 to 30, then the team is averaging 30 pts/game!


(of course that includes Ogletree's TD)

In comment 14206599 giants#1 said:

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In comment 14206594 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: PC is. SB should be rushing much more. Eli�s effectiveness would be much better imo, esp. since the OL SEEMS to be giving him better protection Can you be certain that Eli isn't checking out of runs against stacked boxes?

Of course not, but SB should be rushing 20x a game

7 of which came from OBJ's pass. 22 the game before, 31 the game before and 27 the game before. So our offense has broken 30 pts once in the last 4 games and is averaging 25 ppg.

even with a stacked box, you KNOW SB would break some

Plays we see Eli self-sack himself, sometimes prematurely. It also seems He s not seeing the field as well as he once did.

But while it might be time to move on, I don�t think he s holding the team back, until there is someone on the roster who can play better. That guys not there yet, and probably won�t be next season either.

In comment 14206596 giants#1 said:

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In comment 14206587 dep026 said: Quote: This notion is absolutely ridiculous. Blaming one guy for an entire offense's failures is lame (Lombardi sucks by the way. The worst QB evaluator of all time). In the last 5 games we are averaging nearly 30 PPG and have won 3 of 4, so the offense is getting better. People are forgetting that the first half of the year outside the Eagles game, we were WRETCHED running the ball, the defnese never got a stop when needed. And Shurmur made mistakes constantly. These notions are silly cause you have to think back which games did Eli cost us. Not the ones where he played poorly. But games where he single handily missed throws to lose games. People can argue that Jacksonville game, and that may be the only one. Philly game 2. That INT to end the half took points off the board (Rosas is nearly automatic) and was a momentum swinger.

Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost.

Such a weak, weak argument.

If you watch enough football, you see other QBs making, big momentum changing plays, off schedule. Eli has nearly none of this in his game. His deep ball accuracy is also below average. We need those plays. Eli can make all the reads, throw accurately short to intermediate routes. He is durable and is a great teammate. I will root for him for as long as he plays football, even if he goes elsewhere. I suspect he will start for us year even though I would like to go with someone else that has upside. At this point we have seen the best of Eli, he will continue to decline. It is a valid question.

In comment 14206604 Big Blue '56 said:

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even with a stacked box, you KNOW SB would break some

I agree Barkley needs the ball more. Personally, I'd get him it 5-8 times/game in open space.

But throughout his career, Eli's always been one to check out of runs against 8 man fronts and run it (even with a shitty OL) against 6-7 man fronts if we had the blocking numbers (on paper).

how people forget how basically everyone not named SB were failures early in the year.

but we don't need Michael Lombardi to give us a scouting report on Eli and how his inability to extend plays, etc. is limiting this offense.

Sy'56 put it very succinctly in his Bears game review.

In comment 14206615 giants#1 said:

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In comment 14206604 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: even with a stacked box, you KNOW SB would break some I agree Barkley needs the ball more. Personally, I'd get him it 5-8 times/game in open space. But throughout his career, Eli's always been one to check out of runs against 8 man fronts and run it (even with a shitty OL) against 6-7 man fronts if we had the blocking numbers (on paper).

I would tend to agree with that. But I don�t recall him doing that as much with Jacobs and Bradshaw when both were healthy, do you?

In comment 14206587 dep026 said:

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These notions are silly cause you have to think back which games did Eli cost us. Not the ones where he played poorly. But games where he single handily missed throws to lose games. People can argue that Jacksonville game, and that may be the only one.

Why do we have to only count games where he single-handedly lost the game? Is that the only way a quarterback can hold an offense back? I don't think so. You are moving the goalposts and creating an impossible standard of proof that gives you the answer you want. You are free to do that if you want, but don't be so obnoxious about it.

The usual suspects with the usual arguments! Who could have guessed that on an Eli thread?

Maybe we should have a "which religion is correct?" thread next?

In comment 14206623 eugibs said:

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In comment 14206587 dep026 said: Quote: These notions are silly cause you have to think back which games did Eli cost us. Not the ones where he played poorly. But games where he single handily missed throws to lose games. People can argue that Jacksonville game, and that may be the only one. Why do we have to only count games where he single-handedly lost the game? Is that the only way a quarterback can hold an offense back? I don't think so. You are moving the goalposts and creating an impossible standard of proof that gives you the answer you want. You are free to do that if you want, but don't be so obnoxious about it.

Well if he isnt missing throws.

I can make an argument that if the Giants had a better defense or OL, we would be winning the division and I wouldnt be wrong either, would I?

Pinpointing on one person is stupid because you are assuming his replacement would be doing better which is not necessarily the case?

In comment 14206578 Keith said:

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I love the guy, but he's done, IMO. He flashes some good plays now and then, but not nearly enough to overcome all the bad ones these days. This thread is 100% going to turn into what you don't want it to. Pro-Eli vs Anti-Eli with the same cast of characters on each side.

Yup we are moth to flame, include me for sure.

It's not necessarily his fault, but the offense does not align with what he does well.

Eli's best throws have always been intermediate to deep, outside the numbers. Outs, comebacks, fades, back shoulder fades (have completely disappeared)...

His strength was never as a distributor trying to maximize YAC. He's not an accurate enough thrower short for that.

It's one of many ways that the front office and coaches have failed to align scheme with available talent.

you need to see who is replacing him...

If its a guy like Rodgers, Luck, Wilson, etc - well then yes, you can say it is true.

If its the likes of Bortles, Alex Smith, Dak, Tannehhill, any of the rookies, etc... then it may not likely be true.

These arguments are just silly to me. And we arent even considering QBs who have been injured and missed time this year.. the number rises by the week.

I'm more interested in understanding what is happening and why.

I'm also going to say that, with what he has left in the tank, there is no offensive system that you can use to play to his strengths.
Disclaimer - every time I write something negative about Eli, feel the need to say that he is a NYG legend and I still root like crazy for the guy.

Do you stick with him in 2019 or move on? That is what I have been trying to ponder this year. When he makes a nice pass...I feel one way....then an interception or missed receiver and I think another.

I don't know what to think....

The limitations of the offensive line hold the Giants back. While they have improved as a unit, the coaches continue to have to scheme around their inadequacies.

It may be a long time before we find a QB that offers as much as Eli - even the 2018 version. There are more highly regarded college QBs that never pan out in the NFL than succeed.

He's always been a flawed QB - never the most mobile or accurate guy but he used to kill teams in other ways. Namely in presnap reads, end of game situations and with the deep ball. I think he's still got that late game magic and while not at the level of a Brady or Brees, he's still better than most QBs presnap. Beyond mobility, the biggest issue is that he's lost his deep ball. Deep accuracy hasn't been the same for some time and now you're starting to notice more air on these throws as well. You see it in his intermediate and sideline throws as well. I think he's well aware of this regression too, you see him hesitating more.

That's kind of his problem, he doesn't have anything to beat you with any more. He's not deadly accurate and he's not going to beat you over the top or with his legs. Other older QBs continue to play at a high level with quick, decisive and accurate throws but that's never really been Eli's strength.

The reality is that there aren't a lot of great QBs out there so I wouldn't say he's holding us back. However, I don't think he's offering a significant upgrade over a lot of names that would make his biggest supporters furious. He's one of many players on a long list of positions that need an upgrade on an uneven roster. He has a history and plays by far the most important position on the field, so he'll be a lightning rod for discussion.

The td throw to Beckham was a thing of beauty. Complaining to the high heavens over a qb that was handicapped most of the year by the worst OL in the league has taken care of the ball all year at a career setting pace With a defense that can�t get a stop if it�s life depended on it and everyone wants to talk about the quarterback.... recognize what this is... a team that outside of Beckham and barkley is largely devoid of talent all over the field. The hyper focus on the qb is mind blowing. So many people are easily led by the media�s talking points and don�t trust what their own eyes see...

But there are about 24-27 teams in the league that can say that. So it is a pointless, limited, elementary discussion.

The OL would limit ANY quarterback. You can't get beyond that.

And before anyone wants to kick Manning to the curb, please tell me what your plan is for the 2019 QB in this offense. Specific please.

In comment 14206630 Go Terps said:

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It's not necessarily his fault, but the offense does not align with what he does well. Eli's best throws have always been intermediate to deep, outside the numbers. Outs, comebacks, fades, back shoulder fades (have completely disappeared)... His strength was never as a distributor trying to maximize YAC. He's not an accurate enough thrower short for that. It's one of many ways that the front office and coaches have failed to align scheme with available talent.

I couldn't agree more.

In comment 14206657 Sy'56 said:

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But there are about 24-27 teams in the league that can say that. So it is a pointless, limited, elementary discussion. The OL would limit ANY quarterback. You can't get beyond that. And before anyone wants to kick Manning to the curb, please tell me what your plan is for the 2019 QB in this offense. Specific please.

This is exactly right.

stuff in sport is pointless, limited, and elementary in nature...but that's what makes it fun. We are fans - it's what we do.

The guys who are holding back the GIANTS offense are John Mara, Jerry Reese, and Marc Ross.

Mara is the reason that the incompetent Reese and Ross lasted so long as team executives tasked with player personnel acquisition, evaluation, and retention decisions. Mara hired Reese as his GM, getting a guy with a fatally flawed concept of NFL team construction. He then watched Reese hire the incompetent Ross to run his draft process. He then waited five or six years too long to fire both them after it became apparent that they weren't getting the job done. And we are now only one year, almost to the day, into the tenure of the guys hired to fix the problems that were created over much of a decade.

Reese and Ross are the reason that the GIANTS OL has shit the bed for years and is still pretty bad, turning Eli from one of the best in the league into a shell of his former self. DG is fixing it as fast as he can, but it is a long process especially with all the other crying needs this team has. This mess can't be fixed over one season, there's just too much to be done.

I can't give Pat Shurmur and Mike Shula a total pass on this either, but anything negative they have contributed pales in comparison to the still-lingering major damage done by Reese and Ross, not only to the offense but also to the defense. And the defense's inability to get off the field at times just makes the work of the offense even more difficult, so that's another area that is holding back the GIANTS offense.

.

In comment 14206668 Dnew15 said:

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stuff in sport is pointless, limited, and elementary in nature...but that's what makes it fun. We are fans - it's what we do.

But this particular topic has been beaten to death and there is no new information to present. And I've been guilty of getting roped in as well.

He seems to have to labor more on the long throws and they are not as accurate. He can still put one on the receiver, but not as consistent. Does anyone think he could make that throw down the sideline in the Super Bowl to Mannigham?

He can still get some W's and be productive but he can't carry the team anymore. Shurmur's playbook is restricted with him. I am not opposed to bringing him back for next year. However, I would want them to draft a QB next draft if they see a clear upgrade and poetential franchise type.

What I hate is that he is going through all the negativity from the press, players, etc. My hesitation in bringing him back would be he deserves better. I hope he just retires at years end. I do not think the Giants can build the type of defense and OL he would need to compete next year.

He is giving his best and is a class act and HOF'er imv.

And they're unlikely to have his replacement on the roster next year as well. However, that doesn't preclude the Giants from moving on from him. I see no reason why Eli shouldn't be in the same discussions we have regarding OV and Jenkins this offseason. Or the same discussions we had about Snacks and these vets at the trade deadline in fall.

2019 QB play should be a concern but not the focus of the FO roster decisions.

Other times no. I think Eli is still an above average qb. But with all the losing and his age it seems we�d be better off losing with a younger qb with upside. If you told me this team would be ready to win in 2019 I�d say it�s not the worst idea to go with Eli for one more season, his walk year I might add. Not the worst timing.

Ask yourself this: would the giants be a better team this season if every move they made was the same but back in May you swapped out Eli for Jared Goff or Matt Ryan ? Really think that one through. It�s a tough one.

To me, truly evaluating the QB within the context of whether one guy helps a team win more than another guy is still a mystery at times. No matter how hard you try, its impossible to know for sure. We all want to think we know, but we don�t, with only the most obvious exceptions. Who�s to say the giants would be 4 games better if Drew Brees or Watson or mahomes was the qb here? Do you really know for sure? Nope.

In comment 14206657 Sy'56 said:

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But there are about 24-27 teams in the league that can say that. So it is a pointless, limited, elementary discussion. The OL would limit ANY quarterback. You can't get beyond that. And before anyone wants to kick Manning to the curb, please tell me what your plan is for the 2019 QB in this offense. Specific please.

Eli can still play, but he's not worth $17M. He is so immobile, he basically needs a perfect pocket each time. The OL is never going to be as good as he needs it to be in order to succeed. He has no ability to extend plays. He's also so shellshocked from all the beatings that he isn't seeing the whole field, and is missing too many open receivers.

I also hate the idea of keeping Manning at that salary simply because we don't have his replacement yet. I've said before I don't think KL is the answer. Maybe trade for Kyle Sloter and let the two of them compete. I vaguely remember that the Giants were supposedly interested in trading for Sloter before the draft.

is not the problem!

In comment 14206578 Keith said:

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I love the guy, but he's done, IMO. He flashes some good plays now and then, but not nearly enough to overcome all the bad ones these days. This thread is 100% going to turn into what you don't want it to. Pro-Eli vs Anti-Eli with the same cast of characters on each side.

This is exactly my sentiment so I'm going to skip all the bashing that I'm sure is occurring with the other 48 posts. +1.

In comment 14206610 dep026 said:

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In comment 14206596 giants#1 said: Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost. Such a weak, weak argument.

You see its quotes like this, that really bother me. The OP brought up a legitimate question, and someone contributed with a meaningful response. He was then told to, and I quote "Get the F*** out of here"....

You can't even have a civil conversation, without someone being abusive. There are several prominent posters here, who almost every single day, are in violation of BBI conduct and policy. They have contributed to the degradation of this site, and are the main reason why so many good posters have bounced out of this place.

Something I will never, never understand, is how someone can verbally abuse another fellow Giants fan who has a different opinion, that I will never support.

In comment 14206698 sxdxca said:

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In comment 14206610 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 14206596 giants#1 said: Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost. Such a weak, weak argument. You see its quotes like this, that really bother me. The OP brought up a legitimate question, and someone contributed with a meaningful response. He was then told to, and I quote "Get the F*** out of here".... You can't even have a civil conversation, without someone being abusive. There are several prominent posters here, who almost every single day, are in violation of BBI conduct and policy. They have contributed to the degradation of this site, and are the main reason why so many good posters have bounced out of this place. Something I will never, never understand, is how someone can verbally abuse another fellow Giants fan who has a different opinion, that I will never support.

1, First off assmunch.... my reply wasnt even to the OP or his question that he brought up - so there's lie NUMBER 1 and 2.
2. Do some more RESEARCH.

You fill BBi with lies and BS research to pass off agendas. You are a troll at this point. Only reason you are bringing this up is because I prove your "research" wrong every time you bring something up.

Get lost.

has degraded to the point where it's become a liability, especially given that he's playing behind an OL that is, on its better days, suspect. If he's in the pocket and protection breaks down, he just doesn't have enough quicks to buy himself the time to get a quality pass off.

When protection is good, and even when he's on a designed roll-out, he's solid. Unfortunately for Eli, it may prove simpler for the team to replace him with a QB that can move a little than to wait (and hope) that the OL can improve enough to suit Eli.

all he does is creates lies.

How people continue to cast aside the OL play despite the fact that they�ve seen a noticeable difference in OL play since the Giants acquired Brown. The team is a second half meltdown away from being undefeated since his acquisition.

I doubt any QB in the league would�ve carried the Giants to a few wins early in the season. How did Brees look vs Dallas last week with pressure in his face all night? How many points did the prolific Saints offense score? That�s what Eli was seeing every week until they made a few moves along the OL.

And he has for years but Mara manages in the rear view mirror

In comment 14206658 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 14206630 Go Terps said: Quote: It's not necessarily his fault, but the offense does not align with what he does well. Eli's best throws have always been intermediate to deep, outside the numbers. Outs, comebacks, fades, back shoulder fades (have completely disappeared)... His strength was never as a distributor trying to maximize YAC. He's not an accurate enough thrower short for that. It's one of many ways that the front office and coaches have failed to align scheme with available talent. ///// I couldn't agree more.

Except it's far from clear he can make those 'best throws' any more because, in any order you like, his quick recognition doesn't seem to be there, those patterns require time and timing that our OL will struggle with, and it's not clear he still has the arm to make them. It's a conundrum.

In comment 14206715 WillVAB said:

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How people continue to cast aside the OL play despite the fact that they�ve seen a noticeable difference in OL play since the Giants acquired Brown. The team is a second half meltdown away from being undefeated since his acquisition. I doubt any QB in the league would�ve carried the Giants to a few wins early in the season. How did Brees look vs Dallas last week with pressure in his face all night? How many points did the prolific Saints offense score? That�s what Eli was seeing every week until they made a few moves along the OL.

As you can see in the post below yours.... it doesnt matter other circumstances. Its ALWAYS Eli's fault.

In comment 14206610 dep026 said:

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In comment 14206596 giants#1 said: Quote: In comment 14206587 dep026 said: Quote: This notion is absolutely ridiculous. Blaming one guy for an entire offense's failures is lame (Lombardi sucks by the way. The worst QB evaluator of all time). In the last 5 games we are averaging nearly 30 PPG and have won 3 of 4, so the offense is getting better. People are forgetting that the first half of the year outside the Eagles game, we were WRETCHED running the ball, the defnese never got a stop when needed. And Shurmur made mistakes constantly. These notions are silly cause you have to think back which games did Eli cost us. Not the ones where he played poorly. But games where he single handily missed throws to lose games. People can argue that Jacksonville game, and that may be the only one. Philly game 2. That INT to end the half took points off the board (Rosas is nearly automatic) and was a momentum swinger. Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost. Such a weak, weak argument.

Wait, what? No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game? What are you talking about? Rhonde Barber pick 6 to close down the Vet? Corey Webster in January 2008? I mean obviously there are many many others and even if INTs don't come in the 4th quarter they take points off the board and give the opposing team a new possession. Turnovers are huge plays in football games. In football and in particular the NFL the QB is more responsible than any other single player for a team winning and losing, period.

his immobility is a major problem. He doesn't have to be Lamar Jackson, but he can't avoid virtually any pressure. Makes it impossible to play teams with average or better D lines and pass rush. And yes, I know they beat Chi but that game featured a Defensive TD and a TD pass on a trick play.

In comment 14206713 dep026 said:

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all he does is creates lies.

Not trying to pick on you here, Dep, but shouting down and insulting everybody with a different point of view than you is doing nothing to help your argument.

In comment 14206722 dep026 said:

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In comment 14206715 WillVAB said: Quote: How people continue to cast aside the OL play despite the fact that they�ve seen a noticeable difference in OL play since the Giants acquired Brown. The team is a second half meltdown away from being undefeated since his acquisition. I doubt any QB in the league would�ve carried the Giants to a few wins early in the season. How did Brees look vs Dallas last week with pressure in his face all night? How many points did the prolific Saints offense score? That�s what Eli was seeing every week until they made a few moves along the OL. As you can see in the post below yours.... it doesnt matter other circumstances. Its ALWAYS Eli's fault.

It isn't always Eli's fault. No one contends that the rosters Eli has been supported with have been poor. Everyone agrees. We believe his play has also declined. There are many advanced metrics, analysts, current players and former players that say Eli has declined. The people that think he is still an above average QB are the ones that think it is never his fault. Everything can be explained away with circumstantial evidence and outlier games are proof that he is still above average. Bluntly, we think people with that opinion are stupid. I totally get you think we are stupid for not seeing what you think you see. It is what is. No one will change anyone mind. Statistics are ignored out of hand. This is no different than conservative vs liberal arguments. We are a country that loves to argue. BBI is just a microcosm of it.

In comment 14206660 dep026 said:

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In comment 14206657 Sy'56 said: Quote: But there are about 24-27 teams in the league that can say that. So it is a pointless, limited, elementary discussion. The OL would limit ANY quarterback. You can't get beyond that. And before anyone wants to kick Manning to the curb, please tell me what your plan is for the 2019 QB in this offense. Specific please. This is exactly right.

What do you mean what your plan is? You can easily get either a Top level Guard, Tackle or OC for the savings you get from Eli.. Use the draft to find BPA at QB, OC, G or RT and improve our OL.. Once the OL is good with our talent, any run of the mill QB that we draft following year can lead the team to victories.. Just look at Dak.. If Eli needs studs OL, Stud RB, Stud WR and a pretty good Slow WR to win.. I can get that from fourth rounder like Dak.. It may mean another bad year for Giants.. but its not like we aren't use to those by now.. at least we will have long term stability on Offense with a bright future with our stud WR and RB to help any average QB look good..

In comment 14206734 Mike from Ohio said:

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In comment 14206713 dep026 said: Quote: all he does is creates lies. Not trying to pick on you here, Dep, but shouting down and insulting everybody with a different point of view than you is doing nothing to help your argument.

In all honesty... I try not to personally attack a poster. Nor do I lie. Yes I do go after people�s opinions a lot.

But when you need to lie, it�s as sad as it gets.

In comment 14206739 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 14206722 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 14206715 WillVAB said: Quote: How people continue to cast aside the OL play despite the fact that they�ve seen a noticeable difference in OL play since the Giants acquired Brown. The team is a second half meltdown away from being undefeated since his acquisition. I doubt any QB in the league would�ve carried the Giants to a few wins early in the season. How did Brees look vs Dallas last week with pressure in his face all night? How many points did the prolific Saints offense score? That�s what Eli was seeing every week until they made a few moves along the OL. As you can see in the post below yours.... it doesnt matter other circumstances. Its ALWAYS Eli's fault. It isn't always Eli's fault. No one contends that the rosters Eli has been supported with have been poor. Everyone agrees. We believe his play has also declined. There are many advanced metrics, analysts, current players and former players that say Eli has declined. The people that think he is still an above average QB are the ones that think it is never his fault. Everything can be explained away with circumstantial evidence and outlier games are proof that he is still above average. Bluntly, we think people with that opinion are stupid. I totally get you think we are stupid for not seeing what you think you see. It is what is. No one will change anyone mind. Statistics are ignored out of hand. This is no different than conservative vs liberal arguments. We are a country that loves to argue. BBI is just a microcosm of it.

Many of you do. There are posters here who have been shitting on him since 2007.

I agree he is in decline too. I�ve said it all year.

I mean argue reasonably about Eli. Sorry for the confusion.

not Slow WR.. although I am sure Shepard is not fast..

Anyone here want to raise their hand and admit they think Eli has been bad since 2007 or nothing more than a lucky QB his during his career? I would like to know who these people are. I am not saying they are unicorns. I would just like to be able to identify them.

In comment 14206755 Thegratefulhead said:

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Anyone here want to raise their hand and admit they think Eli has been bad since 2007 or nothing more than a lucky QB his during his career? I would like to know who these people are. I am not saying they are unicorns. I would just like to be able to identify them.

Watch out for certain Canadiens. He likes Raptors.

He started a decline in 2016 and it's been steady since, IMO. He's a below average QB in the NFL in our offense and in the right offense, he'd be average at best, IMO.

When was the last time you saw Eli's feet like this?

O-line completely failed - he still got the job done.

now....?
vs SF - ( New Window )

In comment 14206657 Sy'56 said:

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But there are about 24-27 teams in the league that can say that. So it is a pointless, limited, elementary discussion. The OL would limit ANY quarterback. You can't get beyond that. And before anyone wants to kick Manning to the curb, please tell me what your plan is for the 2019 QB in this offense. Specific please.

👍👍 Is this specific enough?

In comment 14206725 Leg of Theismann said:

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In comment 14206610 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 14206596 giants#1 said: Quote: In comment 14206587 dep026 said: Quote: This notion is absolutely ridiculous. Blaming one guy for an entire offense's failures is lame (Lombardi sucks by the way. The worst QB evaluator of all time). In the last 5 games we are averaging nearly 30 PPG and have won 3 of 4, so the offense is getting better. People are forgetting that the first half of the year outside the Eagles game, we were WRETCHED running the ball, the defnese never got a stop when needed. And Shurmur made mistakes constantly. These notions are silly cause you have to think back which games did Eli cost us. Not the ones where he played poorly. But games where he single handily missed throws to lose games. People can argue that Jacksonville game, and that may be the only one. Philly game 2. That INT to end the half took points off the board (Rosas is nearly automatic) and was a momentum swinger. Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost. Such a weak, weak argument. Wait, what? No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game? What are you talking about? Rhonde Barber pick 6 to close down the Vet? Corey Webster in January 2008? I mean obviously there are many many others and even if INTs don't come in the 4th quarter they take points off the board and give the opposing team a new possession. Turnovers are huge plays in football games. In football and in particular the NFL the QB is more responsible than any other single player for a team winning and losing, period.

For some reason I didn�t include first half INT. I meant to say there has never been a time when a first half INT has cost a team a win. And there will never be one either.

yes.

In comment 14206698 sxdxca said:

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In comment 14206610 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 14206596 giants#1 said: Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost. Such a weak, weak argument. You see its quotes like this, that really bother me. The OP brought up a legitimate question, and someone contributed with a meaningful response. He was then told to, and I quote "Get the F*** out of here".... You can't even have a civil conversation, without someone being abusive. There are several prominent posters here, who almost every single day, are in violation of BBI conduct and policy. They have contributed to the degradation of this site, and are the main reason why so many good posters have bounced out of this place. Something I will never, never understand, is how someone can verbally abuse another fellow Giants fan who has a different opinion, that I will never support.

+1.

Eli suddenly forgot how to read defenses or prepare in studying film?

The offensive line for the majority of the season has been downright dreadful. It has gotten better since Jamon Brown came along and since Solder started playing better, but it still needs a lot of work.

Eli was never a scrambling QB. So, yes, a more mobile QB would make things easier. But that's on the franchise for not having an offensive line for the last decade around their franchise QB, not on the QB.

Of course Eli could play better. And of course there are QBs in the league that would do better behind this line.

But I would say, with conviction, that this offensive line (which is 45% of the starters) is holding back this offense far, FAR more than Eli is.


Eli's "Aggressiveness" percentage (% of attempts into tight windows where defender is w/1 yard) is at 19%, 4th highest in the league. For comparison, Brady is at 15% and Brees is at 16.9%

Eli is among the top in the league in how fast he gets rid of the ball (2.61 seconds, Ben fastest at 2.56) while being T-2nd in the league in sacks.

For the talk that all Eli does is check down, his "completed air yardage" (yards ball travels in air on completions) is 5.2, higher than Ben, Stafford, and tied with Cam, and just behind Brady (5.4) and his intended air yardage (distance ball travels on all attempts) is tied with Brees at 7.2 (Luck and Brady are 7.3 and 7.4, respectively).

What all that tells me is that Eli's offensive line has been terrible such that he's constantly under duress when teams use anything more than 4 rushers, he gets rid of the ball quickly, is still sacked all the time, and by the time Eli has to get rid of the ball, our receivers haven't had much separation.

This will likely be the biggest decision the Giants make this offseason. Shurmur did not commit to Eli for 2019 with Francesa next year which is interesting since he is under contract.

He would save roughly $17M if cut for 2019 & if it is deemed he�s holding the team back, he will likely be cut.

If it is deemed he can still play, he may be signed to a 2-3 year deal.

Pretty significant I�d say.

In comment 14206810 Sean said:

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This will likely be the biggest decision the Giants make this offseason. Shurmur did not commit to Eli for 2019 with Francesa next year which is interesting since he is under contract. He would save roughly $17M if cut for 2019 & if it is deemed he�s holding the team back, he will likely be cut. If it is deemed he can still play, he may be signed to a 2-3 year deal. Pretty significant I�d say.

And the line has been drawn. And we will find out when Gettleman and Shurmur announce it after the draft.

And no matter how many times and ways you tell me he should be cut, and no matter how many times and ways I tell you why he won't be/shouldn't, it won't change a thing.

It's very clear who here feels what about Eli. It's been screamed definitively from every mountain top. Nobody's opinion has or will change.

I guess my question would be, what makes this particular discussion different from the 10,000 previous discussions on the topic so far this season?

moving forward. But at this point, Eli Manning is a waste of time discussion.

But you can't win with a crap line, so, yes, Giants might be 5-7 or even 6-6 with a mobile QB but they still would not be a good team.

And if DG can fix the OL, I still think Eli is a better bet than Herbert or Jones.

In comment 14206657 Sy'56 said:

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But there are about 24-27 teams in the league that can say that. So it is a pointless, limited, elementary discussion. The OL would limit ANY quarterback. You can't get beyond that. And before anyone wants to kick Manning to the curb, please tell me what your plan is for the 2019 QB in this offense. Specific please.

There are 27 teams that are held back by their QB? I don't know about that. I guess it depends what your definition of holding them back are.

Chiefs - Mahomes
Seahawks - Wilson
Saints - Brees
Rams - Goff
Houston - Watson
Colts - Luck
Chargers - Rivers
Pats- Brady

Big Ben is on the teetering point. Thats not counting the rookies like Mayfield and Jackson.

The plan for 2019 should be to take a shot on a guy like Bridgewater or Lauletta - if you end up bad again so be it. Use the cap savings from Eli to fill whatever holes you can and build enough chemistry to insert a QB in 2020.

At some point we have to move on, and this is the perfect out.

In comment 14206669 Red Dog said:

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The guys who are holding back the GIANTS offense are John Mara, Jerry Reese, and Marc Ross. Mara is the reason that the incompetent Reese and Ross lasted so long as team executives tasked with player personnel acquisition, evaluation, and retention decisions. Mara hired Reese as his GM, getting a guy with a fatally flawed concept of NFL team construction. He then watched Reese hire the incompetent Ross to run his draft process. He then waited five or six years too long to fire both them after it became apparent that they weren't getting the job done. And we are now only one year, almost to the day, into the tenure of the guys hired to fix the problems that were created over much of a decade. Reese and Ross are the reason that the GIANTS OL has shit the bed for years and is still pretty bad, turning Eli from one of the best in the league into a shell of his former self. DG is fixing it as fast as he can, but it is a long process especially with all the other crying needs this team has. This mess can't be fixed over one season, there's just too much to be done. I can't give Pat Shurmur and Mike Shula a total pass on this either, but anything negative they have contributed pales in comparison to the still-lingering major damage done by Reese and Ross, not only to the offense but also to the defense. And the defense's inability to get off the field at times just makes the work of the offense even more difficult, so that's another area that is holding back the GIANTS offense.

Man, your tugging at the strings of my heart.

and the offense moving forward is pretty simple.
I'm done. I'm done losing. The NYG have played in one playoff game since 2012.
The NYG have shipped everyone out thus holding everyone accountable for this string of ineptitude - they have released former 1st round picks, cut high priced FA, declined to resign aging vets and Giants legends, benched former stars.
They have fired head coaches, coordinators, scouts and front office people.
No one gets a pass and/or excused from this brutal string of play except for one guy.
Zak Diossi.

In comment 14206810 Sean said:

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This will likely be the biggest decision the Giants make this offseason. Shurmur did not commit to Eli for 2019 with Francesa next year which is interesting since he is under contract. He would save roughly $17M if cut for 2019 & if it is deemed he�s holding the team back, he will likely be cut. If it is deemed he can still play, he may be signed to a 2-3 year deal. Pretty significant I�d say.

Maybe, I�m totally wrong about this but I thought Eli was set to make $22-23 million next year and cutting him would save $17 million in cap space but John Mara would still have to pay him $6million. Assuming Eli�s cut then you got to do out and sign a journeyman QB for next year which is gonna cost you probably at least $10 million a year. Josh McCown of the Jets signed a 1 year contract for that amount. So you are still looking at at least a $16-17 million replacement cost. If I�m John Mara, from a business perspective I�m not sure I don�t just let Eli play out that contract. At least I know what I�m getting for my money. If you don�t go the journeyman route than you are locking yourself in to taking a QB who might not be there or worth it.

DeOssie :)

In comment 14206817 Britt in VA said:

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moving forward. But at this point, Eli Manning is a waste of time discussion.

It�s kind of a dumb thesis. With the exception of Barkley and arguably Beckham, you could pick any player on the offense and upgraded and we would have won a game or two more. Could we then say that that incumbent was holding the team back?

In comment 14206846 Reb8thVA said:

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In comment 14206810 Sean said: Quote: This will likely be the biggest decision the Giants make this offseason. Shurmur did not commit to Eli for 2019 with Francesa next year which is interesting since he is under contract. He would save roughly $17M if cut for 2019 & if it is deemed he�s holding the team back, he will likely be cut. If it is deemed he can still play, he may be signed to a 2-3 year deal. Pretty significant I�d say. Maybe, I�m totally wrong about this but I thought Eli was set to make $22-23 million next year and cutting him would save $17 million in cap space but John Mara would still have to pay him $6million. Assuming Eli�s cut then you got to do out and sign a journeyman QB for next year which is gonna cost you probably at least $10 million a year. Josh McCown of the Jets signed a 1 year contract for that amount. So you are still looking at at least a $16-17 million replacement cost. If I�m John Mara, from a business perspective I�m not sure I don�t just let Eli play out that contract. At least I know what I�m getting for my money. If you don�t go the journeyman route than you are locking yourself in to taking a QB who might not be there or worth it.

That is part of why getting a look at Lauletta is so important. He could be serviceable enough to act as the one year stop gap

Why I was hoping we didn't win anymore so we could see what Lauletta"s got. Of course we all root for a win, but...

Better than Herbert or Jones? In 2014 Warner was better than Eli and Giants mivedoon, because Eli was the future

Even if you re right and he s better than those two guys for next season, you missed the point. How many years do you think Eli has left as a starter?

In comment 14206807 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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Eli suddenly forgot how to read defenses or prepare in studying film? The offensive line for the majority of the season has been downright dreadful. It has gotten better since Jamon Brown came along and since Solder started playing better, but it still needs a lot of work. Eli was never a scrambling QB. So, yes, a more mobile QB would make things easier. But that's on the franchise for not having an offensive line for the last decade around their franchise QB, not on the QB. Of course Eli could play better. And of course there are QBs in the league that would do better behind this line. But I would say, with conviction, that this offensive line (which is 45% of the starters) is holding back this offense far, FAR more than Eli is. Eli's "Aggressiveness" percentage (% of attempts into tight windows where defender is w/1 yard) is at 19%, 4th highest in the league. For comparison, Brady is at 15% and Brees is at 16.9% Eli is among the top in the league in how fast he gets rid of the ball (2.61 seconds, Ben fastest at 2.56) while being T-2nd in the league in sacks. For the talk that all Eli does is check down, his "completed air yardage" (yards ball travels in air on completions) is 5.2, higher than Ben, Stafford, and tied with Cam, and just behind Brady (5.4) and his intended air yardage (distance ball travels on all attempts) is tied with Brees at 7.2 (Luck and Brady are 7.3 and 7.4, respectively). What all that tells me is that Eli's offensive line has been terrible such that he's constantly under duress when teams use anything more than 4 rushers, he gets rid of the ball quickly, is still sacked all the time, and by the time Eli has to get rid of the ball, our receivers haven't had much separation.

Those analytics don�t count.

Blame some of these Refs for holding the offense back, as well as the defense.. horrible officiating and way to many bullshit calls that are effecting the outcome of games..

He was a top 10 QB from about 2008-2015 (most of those years, at least) and is a HOF or borderline HOF QB IMO but he is basically an old game manager at this point. And he is good for a few WTF throws/missed plays a game.

If he would agree to a MAJOR pay cut next year he could be a 2019 bridge to the next QB. But Eli has never taken one for the team ala Brady. We�ll have to pay him $23M or cut him and save $17.

I�ll take the $17 and start looking to the future. Whether that�s a 2019 1st round QB or a cheap stopgap ($5-8M) to bridge to a 2020 1st round QB, with the cap savings going to young FA talent or rolled over to 2020. We�re not winning a championship with Eli in 2019 - might as well stock up the war chest.

they would be in the mix for the division if the OL hadn't started the season as such a catastrophe...

Eli is a top third QB even at this age...and kudos to Paul Blake for researching the data above...

In comment 14207032 JCin332 said:

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they would be in the mix for the division if the OL hadn't started the season as such a catastrophe... Eli is a top third QB even at this age...and kudos to Paul Blake for researching the data above...

He is not a top 10 QB In the league.

Is this Eli manning that is so frequently discussed in these parts?

In comment 14206610 dep026 said:

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In comment 14206596 giants#1 said: Quote: In comment 14206587 dep026 said: Quote: Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost. Such a weak, weak argument.

Perhaps the interception at the end of SB #49? Troll

In comment 14206975 WillVAB said:

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In comment 14206807 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: Eli suddenly forgot how to read defenses or prepare in studying film? The offensive line for the majority of the season has been downright dreadful. It has gotten better since Jamon Brown came along and since Solder started playing better, but it still needs a lot of work. Eli was never a scrambling QB. So, yes, a more mobile QB would make things easier. But that's on the franchise for not having an offensive line for the last decade around their franchise QB, not on the QB. Of course Eli could play better. And of course there are QBs in the league that would do better behind this line. But I would say, with conviction, that this offensive line (which is 45% of the starters) is holding back this offense far, FAR more than Eli is. Eli's "Aggressiveness" percentage (% of attempts into tight windows where defender is w/1 yard) is at 19%, 4th highest in the league. For comparison, Brady is at 15% and Brees is at 16.9% Eli is among the top in the league in how fast he gets rid of the ball (2.61 seconds, Ben fastest at 2.56) while being T-2nd in the league in sacks. For the talk that all Eli does is check down, his "completed air yardage" (yards ball travels in air on completions) is 5.2, higher than Ben, Stafford, and tied with Cam, and just behind Brady (5.4) and his intended air yardage (distance ball travels on all attempts) is tied with Brees at 7.2 (Luck and Brady are 7.3 and 7.4, respectively). What all that tells me is that Eli's offensive line has been terrible such that he's constantly under duress when teams use anything more than 4 rushers, he gets rid of the ball quickly, is still sacked all the time, and by the time Eli has to get rid of the ball, our receivers haven't had much separation. Those analytics don�t count.

They were cherry picked. What was left out was his intended Air Yards ranks 24th in the league. And what�s the completion percentage on agressive throws?

In comment 14207052 uther99 said:

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In comment 14206610 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 14206596 giants#1 said: Quote: In comment 14206587 dep026 said: Quote: Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost. Such a weak, weak argument. Perhaps the interception at the end of SB #49? Troll

Lol. I corrected my initial stance. Dupe. Troll. Get lost.

it seems to me that Eli has missed seeing open receivers much more this year. It seems to happen several times a game. I'm guessing that it's because of the need to unload the ball quickly these past couple for years that he is not taking the time to span the field as readily. He also seems tick late with what he sees. That and his general lack of ability to extend plays points to needing a change for next year. If he is their starting QB next year, this team will not have a winning record.

posting on BBI

I also see decline in Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, etc. The only one of their era I don't see in decline is Brees. However, he is still a top half of the league QB. As the OL improves, so does Eli. I don't think that's a coincidence.

The only "Elite" season I think Eli had was 2011. Ironically when he was asked if he thinks he's Elite.

I don't think Eli is holding the team back but he's no longer the spark that can push them forward. Honestly, that's fine with me. Barkley is the spark now. A solid run game and pass rush is truly what the team needs. The team is a run first offense now but Shurmur hasn't appeared to have accepted that yet.

Unless there is a great QB prospect that they can go after in the draft, I feel the team is better off drafting OL. Often times it's a choice between a good run blocking OLmen or a pass blocking one. If that's the case, go after a great run blocking one. I don't care if it's a passing league. The run sets up the pass far better then it does the other way around. That hasn't changed. After that, pass rushers are a big need.

Gurley, Elliot, and Barkley are the top 3 rushers right now. Cowboys and Rams are top 10 rushing offenses. Giants are a bottom 10 rushing offense. What's that tell you? Most of the teams leading their division having great rushers.

Again, the Giants' do better rushing the ball. They have improved (to include Eli) when the OL plays better. Eli's stats are still top 10 (barely) according to NFL.com with what is still a sub-standard OL. I'd say he's still at least middle of the league because like most say, stats can be misleading. However, he's still a solid starter in this league.

RUN THE DAMN BALL! Improve the OL in the off-season as the priority. Pass rushers being as a solid 1B in priority. Get a new QB ONLY if they are enamored with one.

Nah

In comment 14207176 USAF NYG Fan said:

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I also see decline in Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, etc. The only one of their era I don't see in decline is Brees. However, he is still a top half of the league QB. As the OL improves, so does Eli. I don't think that's a coincidence. The only "Elite" season I think Eli had was 2011. Ironically when he was asked if he thinks he's Elite. I don't think Eli is holding the team back but he's no longer the spark that can push them forward. Honestly, that's fine with me. Barkley is the spark now. A solid run game and pass rush is truly what the team needs. The team is a run first offense now but Shurmur hasn't appeared to have accepted that yet. Unless there is a great QB prospect that they can go after in the draft, I feel the team is better off drafting OL. Often times it's a choice between a good run blocking OLmen or a pass blocking one. If that's the case, go after a great run blocking one. I don't care if it's a passing league. The run sets up the pass far better then it does the other way around. That hasn't changed. After that, pass rushers are a big need. Gurley, Elliot, and Barkley are the top 3 rushers right now. Cowboys and Rams are top 10 rushing offenses. Giants are a bottom 10 rushing offense. What's that tell you? Most of the teams leading their division having great rushers. Again, the Giants' do better rushing the ball. They have improved (to include Eli) when the OL plays better. Eli's stats are still top 10 (barely) according to NFL.com with what is still a sub-standard OL. I'd say he's still at least middle of the league because like most say, stats can be misleading. However, he's still a solid starter in this league. RUN THE DAMN BALL! Improve the OL in the off-season as the priority. Pass rushers being as a solid 1B in priority. Get a new QB ONLY if they are enamored with one.

Except run first offenses don�t win in today�s NFL.

Sure Eli has improved as the oline has played better but those weren�t elite QB performances that can carry a team. How much better can the rest of the roster be built up to make up for not having a QB who can carry you to a win.

It also has to be kept in context that those �better� performances were against a bad 49ers team, a Bucs defense that is worse than ours, a Philly defense missing everyone. He wasn�t great against the Bears.

For whatever reason, this organizations identity is running the ball and playing nasty defense. I feel like a higher power has determined this is the only way for us to win lol.

When the Giants commit to the run game early and stay with it, Eli will be ok. Unless they go hurry up (seems to help his processing) you can't ask Eli to throw the ball 35 + times.

In the NFL?

9 of the top 10 rush offenses have winning records.

unless Lauletta proves to be it. I wouldn't be surprised if they rework his deal at a better price and bring him back next year and give Lauletta another year to develop. But to say he's holding the team back I see no proof of that yet. I do hope at some point we get to see Lauletta in a game or two this year.

holding it back. BUT, it is not devastatingly so. Sunday was one of his worst games, yet they won.

The poor play by the Oline was holding the offense back more than Eli was and it was not even close. At least recently (since Brown) he has a better than even chance to make his reads.

I really enjoy the rollout passes they have installed for him.

No matter what, Eli is Eli. He is going to make headscratchers every game - always has, always will.

And as far as I am concerned, his arm strength does not look diminished. Perhaps his deep accuracy is a bit off, but I see nothing with his arm that would prevent them from winning. The pass to Shepard in OT that should have ended the game was spot on. SS said he lost it momentarily in the lights and adjusted a touch late.

In comment 14207192 dep026 said:

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In the NFL? 9 of the top 10 rush offenses have winning records.

You omitted the same old first. You would consider the Saints, Rams and Chiefs as offense�s that are designed around running the ball first? They�re designed around their QBs and the passing game.

You win in the NFL now by passing and stopping the pass. Why did the Bears lose on Sunday? Because Chase Daniels couldn�t execute the easiest passes. Cohen and Howard averaged 4.4 yards per carry but that didn�t matter.

You need a quarterback who can carry an offense and Eli can no longer do that, otherwise you�ll be stuck in mediocrity.

alrighty then...

In comment 14206810 Sean said:

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This will likely be the biggest decision the Giants make this offseason. Shurmur did not commit to Eli for 2019 with Francesa next year which is interesting since he is under contract. He would save roughly $17M if cut for 2019 & if it is deemed he�s holding the team back, he will likely be cut. If it is deemed he can still play, he may be signed to a 2-3 year deal. Pretty significant I�d say.

And this is why people like me dig further in to support Eli. Shurmur is doing the same thing McAdoo did - blaming Eli for his own inepitude. No one was upset last year with benching Eli - they were upset because McAdoo in starting Smith instead of Webb was declaring that Eli was the reason the offense was being held back. This wasn't true then and it isn't true now.

As good as Brown has been, to suggest that the arrival of a waiver wire castoff was the reason that the OLine began to play well in week ten is ludicrous. The fact is, Shurmur just didn't have this OL ready until after the bye week. Which is particularly annoying since he himself was an OLineman and one of the reasons I thought he was hired. And his play calling and game management are disgraceful. To now insinuate that his despicable record is somehow Eli's fault is downright disgusting. Shurmur can't be fired soon enough as far as I'm concerned.

Statistically, Eli is a top ten quarterback this year in every category except TD passes - despite the putrid line play in the first nine games. Yes, there are better quarterbacks - but as Sy said, until someone offers a sensible alternative (and Lauletta is unequivocally NOT), then Eli should and must be our quarterback...now and until that alternative is on this team.

who could run the read option?

A Russel Wilson type QB in the offense would be very difficult to defend.

Sometimes I wonder if some of you guys watch football games other than the Giants. All QBs throw ints, miss open receivers and make stupid decisions.. Big Ben has 14 Ints so far this year...Luck has 12...Mahomes 10....Eli has 8...Brady has 8. Put a better line in front of him and his play improves, just like any other QB. He is far from the reason why they are 4-8

In comment 14207204 dep026 said:

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alrighty then...

Goff is on pace to throw 552 passes, almost 5 more per game than he did last year, and on pace for 36 touchdowns. Todd Gurley was there before Goff, but when did the offense start to take off?

They wouldn�t be as successful running the ball out of mostly 11 personnel if the plays weren�t designed around the QB and the defense didn�t respect the QB.

Because Goff has been great passing the football, the rest of the offense goes. Goff is also 3rd on the team in carries. The offense is based off of RPOs and reads and the threat that Goff can run also helps make the offense go.

In comment 14207209 the mike said:

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In comment 14206810 Sean said: Quote: As good as Brown has been, to suggest that the arrival of a waiver wire castoff was the reason that the OLine began to play well in week ten is ludicrous.

This is the reason your post is garbage. You think miraculously Shurmur got the line to improve out of nowhere after the bye and it just happened to coincide with Brown's arrival?
Eli was getting pressured up the middle. Omameh was worthless. Once Brown helped slow pressure up the middle Solder was able to route the outside rush wide as Eli was able to step up. Brown was the starter with the Rams until his suspension earlier this year. He would likely have continued to be the Rams starter had he not been suspended - there was no talk of him being benched prior.

Is Brown a Pro Bowl candidate - no. But he is probably close to a league average RG and that is a significant upgrade.

In comment 14207219 BigK said:

Quote:

Sometimes I wonder if some of you guys watch football games other than the Giants. All QBs throw ints, miss open receivers and make stupid decisions.. Big Ben has 14 Ints so far this year...Luck has 12...Mahomes 10....Eli has 8...Brady has 8. Put a better line in front of him and his play improves, just like any other QB. He is far from the reason why they are 4-8

Big Ben has 26 TD's-3900 yards
Mahomes 41 TD's-3900 yards
Luck 32 TD's-3300 yards
Brady has 20 TD's-3300 yards

More importantly, pts per game:
Steelers:29
Chiefs:37
Colts:27
Pats:27
Giants:22

Listen, people can make stats say whatever they want and clearly some are using them to defend Eli. I get it, he's one of the best all-time Giants and he's been nothing but pure class so people let their emotions get involved. Reality though is that he's close to done and he's nowhere near a top 10 QB and he's not even in the upper half.

Stats didn't tell the whole story when he was in his prime and they certainly don't now either. It is quite convenient though how people are using certain stats to defend Eli when throughout his whole career most of us had to defend the stats against Eli.

and run blocking...

And Gurley one of the best RB's in football...

So naturally that opens up the passing game...

But that OL is the key...

Giants OL better than beginning of season but not in same stratosphere...

In comment 14207219 BigK said:

Quote:

Sometimes I wonder if some of you guys watch football games other than the Giants. All QBs throw ints, miss open receivers and make stupid decisions.. Big Ben has 14 Ints so far this year...Luck has 12...Mahomes 10....Eli has 8...Brady has 8. Put a better line in front of him and his play improves, just like any other QB. He is far from the reason why they are 4-8

I don�t think you can question if people watch football and then put Eli in the same sentence regarding play as Luck and Mahomes.

All those teams are in the playoffs or in the hunt. Luck has more than double the TDs Eli has all while doing it with a roster probably nearly as bad and after missing more than a year with a major shoulder injury.

In comment 14207221 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

In comment 14207204 dep026 said: Quote: alrighty then... Goff is on pace to throw 552 passes, almost 5 more per game than he did last year, and on pace for 36 touchdowns. Todd Gurley was there before Goff, but when did the offense start to take off?

When jeff Fisher was fired?

The rams would take Gurley over Goff everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Lets be realistic.

Quote:

Big Ben has 26 TD's-3900 yards Mahomes 41 TD's-3900 yards Luck 32 TD's-3300 yards Brady has 20 TD's-3300 yardsi More importantly, pts per game: Steelers:29 Chiefs:37 Colts:27 Pats:27 Giants:22 Listen, people can make stats say whatever they want and clearly some are using them to defend Eli. I get it, he's one of the best all-time Giants and he's been nothing but pure class so people let their emotions get involved. Reality though is that he's close to done and he's nowhere near a top 10 QB and he's not even in the upper half. Stats didn't tell the whole story when he was in his prime and they certainly don't now either. It is quite convenient though how people are using certain stats to defend Eli when throughout his whole career most of us had to defend the stats against Eli.

Uh you forgot Eli's numbers Keith:

Eli- 15 TD's 3300 yards...despite a catastrophic failure of an OL at beginning of the season...

And they are averaging 29.25 pts/game since the bye...

Notice a pattern here...???

In comment 14207223 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 14207209 the mike said: Quote: In comment 14206810 Sean said: Quote: As good as Brown has been, to suggest that the arrival of a waiver wire castoff was the reason that the OLine began to play well in week ten is ludicrous. This is the reason your post is garbage. You think miraculously Shurmur got the line to improve out of nowhere after the bye and it just happened to coincide with Brown's arrival? Eli was getting pressured up the middle. Omameh was worthless. Once Brown helped slow pressure up the middle Solder was able to route the outside rush wide as Eli was able to step up. Brown was the starter with the Rams until his suspension earlier this year. He would likely have continued to be the Rams starter had he not been suspended - there was no talk of him being benched prior. Is Brown a Pro Bowl candidate - no. But he is probably close to a league average RG and that is a significant upgrade.

Let's be clear. This line still stinks and remains ill prepared by their vaunted Coach and former Olineman. They had good games against the Bucs and Niners - two of the worst defenses in the NFL. They had a good first half against the Eagles and a good second half against the Bears. The only reason this team beat the Bears was due to Barkley who, at two critical moments of the game, made something out of nothing created by this feeble Oline. Brown is extremely mediocre - yes he is better than Omameh but so is my five year old nephew...

In comment 14207233 the mike said:

Quote:

Let's be clear. This line still stinks and remains ill prepared by their vaunted Coach and former Olineman. They had good games against the Bucs and Niners - two of the worst defenses in the NFL. They had a good first half against the Eagles and a good second half against the Bears. The only reason this team beat the Bears was due to Barkley who, at two critical moments of the game, made something out of nothing created by this feeble Oline. Brown is extremely mediocre - yes he is better than Omameh but so is my five year old nephew...

You are wrong on so many levels it is not worth arguing. Bucs defense sucks yes and they scored 38 points, 49ers are 12th? Bears 4th? 394 yards vs Eagles in the 1st half until play calling fell apart (they forgot that Barkley was there - think Payton forgets Brees is there?)

Only reason they won was because of Barkley? - well only reason New Orleans wins is because of Brees. Foolish statement.

You can have the best line coach in football, but if 2/5 of the line is horrendous you are doomed.(Omameh & Flowers)

Ok, if Brown is extremely mediocre, that makes him league average. Mediocre means average.

In comment 14207226 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

In comment 14207219 BigK said: Quote: Sometimes I wonder if some of you guys watch football games other than the Giants. All QBs throw ints, miss open receivers and make stupid decisions.. Big Ben has 14 Ints so far this year...Luck has 12...Mahomes 10....Eli has 8...Brady has 8. Put a better line in front of him and his play improves, just like any other QB. He is far from the reason why they are 4-8 I don�t think you can question if people watch football and then put Eli in the same sentence regarding play as Luck and Mahomes. All those teams are in the playoffs or in the hunt. Luck has more than double the TDs Eli has all while doing it with a roster probably nearly as bad and after missing more than a year with a major shoulder injury.

Yeah and Luck has one of the best O-Lines in the league...

This year. It has been very very good.

Spearheaded by one of my former students.

the ad nauseum discussion about Eli and moving on and new QBs and what not - but I love it.
I totally understand why this is a tough choice for fans/the coaches/the front office. This kind of stuff makes sports fun and gives me something to flip back and forth on while I type these damn reports for work - thanks BBI!

In comment 14207228 JCin332 said:

Quote:

Quote: Big Ben has 26 TD's-3900 yards Mahomes 41 TD's-3900 yards Luck 32 TD's-3300 yards Brady has 20 TD's-3300 yardsi More importantly, pts per game: Steelers:29 Chiefs:37 Colts:27 Pats:27 Giants:22 Listen, people can make stats say whatever they want and clearly some are using them to defend Eli. I get it, he's one of the best all-time Giants and he's been nothing but pure class so people let their emotions get involved. Reality though is that he's close to done and he's nowhere near a top 10 QB and he's not even in the upper half. Stats didn't tell the whole story when he was in his prime and they certainly don't now either. It is quite convenient though how people are using certain stats to defend Eli when throughout his whole career most of us had to defend the stats against Eli. Uh you forgot Eli's numbers Keith: Eli- 15 TD's 3300 yards...despite a catastrophic failure of an OL at beginning of the season... And they are averaging 29.25 pts/game since the bye... Notice a pattern here...???

2 defensive TD's, they are averaging 25 ppg and yes, I do notice a difference.

did you subtract defensive TDs from the other teams averages you listed...???

I was responding to your post that they are averaging just shy of 30 ppg. The offense is not averaging close to 30 ppg. I didn't take out OBJ's TD pass and I didn't adjust for defensive TD's in my first post that you responded to.

because these people say he is done. That's essentially their argument.

Big Ben and Rivers same age- not "done"
Brees older than Manning- not "done"
Brady older than Manning- not "done"

So basically, Manning is the only one of this group that is "done" in their minds. The only differences between these guys and Manning is they have multiple targets to throw to and they aren't flat on their backs half the time trying to throw to them. Put these guys with the Shepards, Fowler and Ellison with Stonewall Pulley and Shaky Wheeler in front of them and you would be pronouncing them as "done" too.

I have seen Unitas, Jurgensen, Tarkenton, Staubach, Bradshaw, Griese, Marino all finish their careers. There are two reasons that qb's are "done"- they start missing games for injury or their arms completely go. It's one or the other but most of the time, it's injury. Manning has never missed a game for injury and he can still throw the ball. He's not "done"- not by a long shot.

Is he "done" because he's "old"? Not really, although age effects everyone differently. He's "done" because he no longer has any pocket presence, his decision making is poor and he watches the rush a little too much. Now that "latter" has gotten better of late, but it's still not good enough. He's "done" because of what we've witnessed for hte past 2-3 years.

It's always everyone elses fault. The OC. The OL. The WR's. The TE's. The running game. The HC. Bad luck. It's always everyone and everything but eli. People have stopped using logic and only use emotion with Eli. Again, I understand it, we all have a huge emotional attachment to Eli , but it's not reality. We've won 7 games in the past 2 seasons.

The Giants have the best skill position players of all those teams, yet we can't maximize that because of our QB.

To make the comparison relevant you need to use the same methadology...

what?

...

you can't be better lately. You're either done or you're not.

In comment 14207364 Keith said:

Quote:

Is he "done" because he's "old"? Not really, although age effects everyone differently. He's "done" because he no longer has any pocket presence, his decision making is poor and he watches the rush a little too much. Now that "latter" has gotten better of late, but it's still not good enough. He's "done" because of what we've witnessed for hte past 2-3 years. It's always everyone elses fault. The OC. The OL. The WR's. The TE's. The running game. The HC. Bad luck. It's always everyone and everything but eli. People have stopped using logic and only use emotion with Eli. Again, I understand it, we all have a huge emotional attachment to Eli , but it's not reality. We've won 7 games in the past 2 seasons. The Giants have the best skill position players of all those teams, yet we can't maximize that because of our QB.

The "emotion" part is 100% right back atya

players than the Steelers and the Chiefs. Yes, very objective debate.

I love how people say Eli has had a bad OLine for years is somehow an "excuse". Sorry its not an excuse. Its fuckign reality. With the addition of Brown the last few weeks, who is medicore at best, Eli's play has improved. Its not coincidence.

Eli doesnt need all-world people to block for him. How about we get to "average" first.

let me clarify.

I first posted this:

More importantly, pts per game:
Steelers:29
Chiefs:37
Colts:27
Pats:27
Giants:22

In the above, defensive TD's are included for ALL teams.

You responded with:

Uh you forgot Eli's numbers Keith:

Eli- 15 TD's 3300 yards...despite a catastrophic failure of an OL at beginning of the season...

And they are averaging 29.25 pts/game since the bye...

Notice a pattern here...???

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you aren't talking team stats here, you are talking about the offensive success. To that, I responded with the offensive success minus the defensive TD's.

In comment 14207400 dep026 said:

Quote:

players than the Steelers and the Chiefs. Yes, very objective debate. I love how people say Eli has had a bad OLine for years is somehow an "excuse". Sorry its not an excuse. Its fuckign reality. With the addition of Brown the last few weeks, who is medicore at best, Eli's play has improved. Its not coincidence. Eli doesnt need all-world people to block for him. How about we get to "average" first.

In the Barkley threads people go out of their way to say how impacted he is by OL suckitude. Different agenda there though.

of the giants.
the offense, i mean yeah sure he can't move well and that holds back a lot of things- but the team stinks so who really cares.
him being here still at 37 with some prime skill level guys delays them having the chance to be great by like 2 more yrs every year he stays.

In comment 14207419 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

of the giants. the offense, i mean yeah sure he can't move well and that holds back a lot of things- but the team stinks so who really cares. him being here still at 37 with some prime skill level guys delays them having the chance to be great by like 2 more yrs every year he stays.

So you're assuming the guy who replaces him is going to have a better impact. Pretty bold statement.

And by the way.... OBJ and Barkley are having pretty good years. Lets not act like they arent getting theirs.

and QBs being compared with the Giants have significantly better offensive lines.

Is Eli a Top-5 QB right now? Of course not. But when the unit that comprises 5/11 of the starters is terrible, I think that is where the focus needs to be.

I have no idea where Eli's ceiling is behind a line as good as the Chiefs, or Colts, or Patriots, or Steelers, or Saints. But I do maintain that his performances are more a symptom of the offensive line holding the offense hostage, rather than the cause of the offense's problems.

In comment 14207469 PaulBlakeTSU said:

Quote:

and QBs being compared with the Giants have significantly better offensive lines. Is Eli a Top-5 QB right now? Of course not. But when the unit that comprises 5/11 of the starters is terrible, I think that is where the focus needs to be. I have no idea where Eli's ceiling is behind a line as good as the Chiefs, or Colts, or Patriots, or Steelers, or Saints. But I do maintain that his performances are more a symptom of the offensive line holding the offense hostage, rather than the cause of the offense's problems.

But that takes Eli out of the Crucible. And nobody wants that. So...maintain all you want, but you're wrong.

Eli is definitively not done in my opinion. Eli is also definitively holding the potential of this offense back. Imagine a world where our QB eludes the rush or just holds onto to the ball until the last possible second and absorbs the hit, takes a play that would have been a drive killing sack or turn over and turns it into a long momentum changing touchdown. Yes, Eli used to be able to do that, now he folds sometimes in anticipation of the rush. I would be willing to accept lesser QB play for an entire season(IE Goff Wentz) if we had a QB with upside behind center. Eli has zero upside, he is what he is and will get worse. I want to move forward and have something to look forward to rather than honor the past by letting Eli play as long as wants in a Giants uniform.

In comment 14207430 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14207419 hitdog42 said: Quote: of the giants. the offense, i mean yeah sure he can't move well and that holds back a lot of things- but the team stinks so who really cares. him being here still at 37 with some prime skill level guys delays them having the chance to be great by like 2 more yrs every year he stays. So you're assuming the guy who replaces him is going to have a better impact. Pretty bold statement. And by the way.... OBJ and Barkley are having pretty good years. Lets not act like they arent getting theirs.

He's going to be replaced eventually. They haven't won the past few years with him, wouldn't he be smart to maximize your opportunity finding the next guy?

In comment 14207485 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

He's going to be replaced eventually. They haven't won the past few years with him, wouldn't he be smart to maximize your opportunity finding the next guy?

Ok.... with who?

In comment 14207355 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

because these people say he is done. That's essentially their argument. Big Ben and Rivers same age- not "done" Brees older than Manning- not "done" Brady older than Manning- not "done" So basically, Manning is the only one of this group that is "done" in their minds. The only differences between these guys and Manning is they have multiple targets to throw to and they aren't flat on their backs half the time trying to throw to them. Put these guys with the Shepards, Fowler and Ellison with Stonewall Pulley and Shaky Wheeler in front of them and you would be pronouncing them as "done" too. I have seen Unitas, Jurgensen, Tarkenton, Staubach, Bradshaw, Griese, Marino all finish their careers. There are two reasons that qb's are "done"- they start missing games for injury or their arms completely go. It's one or the other but most of the time, it's injury. Manning has never missed a game for injury and he can still throw the ball. He's not "done"- not by a long shot.

I don�t understand their stances either

In comment 14207496 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14207485 ajr2456 said: Quote: He's going to be replaced eventually. They haven't won the past few years with him, wouldn't he be smart to maximize your opportunity finding the next guy? Ok.... with who?

There were players last year, there are players this year.

The line of thinking "we probably won't find someone better than Eli" is dumb and pointless.

We don't need someone someone better than prime Eli, we need someone better than current day Eli - and thats a little easier of a task.

Just because improvement is guaranteed doesn't mean there can't be improvement.

thats the problem with the mindset.

We think just replacing Eli with a new QB who is either a rookie or a FA is going to magically going to make the team better.

You do realize it can get worse, right? There have been many teams who have failed for years because they thought replacing the QB was the answer. The reality is you probabyl wont see his replacement until 2020. Especially if this QB rookie class is as weak as every one thinks it is.

What amazes me is that there are fans that are so adament of getting a new QB, that the rest of the roster should take a backseat to it. Just strange.

In comment 14207507 dep026 said:

Quote:

thats the problem with the mindset. We think just replacing Eli with a new QB who is either a rookie or a FA is going to magically going to make the team better. You do realize it can get worse, right? There have been many teams who have failed for years because they thought replacing the QB was the answer. The reality is you probabyl wont see his replacement until 2020. Especially if this QB rookie class is as weak as every one thinks it is. What amazes me is that there are fans that are so adament of getting a new QB, that the rest of the roster should take a backseat to it. Just strange.

It can get worse, but how much worse? He's currently a bottom third QB in the league, who goes to the ground because he can't extend plays.

In comment 14207513 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

In comment 14207507 dep026 said: Quote: thats the problem with the mindset. We think just replacing Eli with a new QB who is either a rookie or a FA is going to magically going to make the team better. You do realize it can get worse, right? There have been many teams who have failed for years because they thought replacing the QB was the answer. The reality is you probabyl wont see his replacement until 2020. Especially if this QB rookie class is as weak as every one thinks it is. What amazes me is that there are fans that are so adament of getting a new QB, that the rest of the roster should take a backseat to it. Just strange. It can get worse, but how much worse? He's currently a bottom third QB in the league, who goes to the ground because he can't extend plays.

Bottom 3rd? Ok....

Please look at the list below and tell me who you believe Eli is better than:

Big Ben
Mahomes
Matt Ryan
Jared Goff
Arod
Cousins
Rivers
Luck
Brady
Brees
Carr
Stafford
Watson
Cam
Keenum
Wentz
Wilson
Prescott
Mayfield
Bortles
Dalton
Trubisky
Flacco
Fitzpatrick/Winston
Alex Smith
Mariota
Darnold
Rosen
Tennehill
Garoppolo
Josh Allen

in order to find the next guy, they actually have to look for him. He's not going to fall out of the sky and into the Giants' lap. The mindset that the first year (or, gulp, more) of the next QB's career isn't going to be great and therefore we should just keep Eli forever and ever is weird. The Giants were 5-4 before Warner got benched and then Eli went 1-6 to close the season. Guess that means Warner shouldn't have been benched since Eli wasn't as good as Warner in 2004.

In comment 14207522 Keith said:

Quote:

Please look at the list below and tell me who you believe Eli is better than: Big Ben Mahomes Matt Ryan Jared Goff Arod Cousins Rivers Luck Brady Brees Carr Stafford Watson Cam Keenum Wentz Wilson Prescott Mayfield Bortles Dalton Trubisky Flacco Fitzpatrick/Winston Alex Smith Mariota Darnold Rosen Tennehill Garoppolo Josh Allen

He is most definitely better than...

Darnold/Allen/Rosen/Mayfield - but they are rookies, so I wont say Id take Eli over them. But he is certainly better than them.

Flacco
TB QB situation
Mariotta
Garoppolo
Smith
Dak
Dalton
Bortles
Keenum
Cam
Carr
Tannehill

So thats 16 who I think Eli is easily better than. And there are a few more who I would take Eli over based off their past performances (I am looking at you Matt Ryan and Kirk Cousins specifically.)

"We think just replacing Eli with a new QB who is either a rookie or a FA is going to magically going to make the team better."

No, we think not paying $23M (2019) for a game manager-level QB is an obvious way to help improve a roster with subpar talent.

In comment 14207535 Dave in Hoboken said:

Quote:

in order to find the next guy, they actually have to look for him. He's not going to fall out of the sky and into the Giants' lap. The mindset that the first year (or, gulp, more) of the next QB's career isn't going to be great and therefore we should just keep Eli forever and ever is weird. The Giants were 5-4 before Warner got benched and then Eli went 1-6 to close the season. Guess that means Warner shouldn't have been benched since Eli wasn't as good as Warner in 2004.

And thats fine. I was a proponent for darnold last year. But are you going to invest so much in a first round pick who may/may not be the goods? Just to replace them?

or are you going to continue the rebuilding process by concentrating on the OL/DL?

but lets just talk about Cam. You think Eli in his current state is better than Cam newton??? Do you realize how insane that sounds?

In comment 14207542 cosmicj said:

Quote:

"We think just replacing Eli with a new QB who is either a rookie or a FA is going to magically going to make the team better." No, we think not paying $23M (2019) for a game manager-level QB is an obvious way to help improve a roster with subpar talent.

Dont rebuild by FA. Do it by the draft.

In comment 14207544 Keith said:

Quote:

but lets just talk about Cam. You think Eli in his current state is better than Cam newton??? Do you realize how insane that sounds?

Does it? Ok. I dont think Cam is nearly as good as people crack him out to be. But if you think he is better than Eli, thats fine.

In comment 14207543 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14207535 Dave in Hoboken said: Quote: in order to find the next guy, they actually have to look for him. He's not going to fall out of the sky and into the Giants' lap. The mindset that the first year (or, gulp, more) of the next QB's career isn't going to be great and therefore we should just keep Eli forever and ever is weird. The Giants were 5-4 before Warner got benched and then Eli went 1-6 to close the season. Guess that means Warner shouldn't have been benched since Eli wasn't as good as Warner in 2004. And thats fine. I was a proponent for darnold last year. But are you going to invest so much in a first round pick who may/may not be the goods? Just to replace them? or are you going to continue the rebuilding process by concentrating on the OL/DL?

"May or may not be the goods." We can literally say this about every draft pick ever at the time of the draft. No one knows for sure how any player is going to turn out until they play for a few years. Under the 'may or may not be the goods' mindset, since we can say that about anyone, what you're pretty much saying is keep Eli until we know for a fact we have the next guy. There is no knowing for a fact, though.

and I think a few are on par with Eli and I think Cam is clearly much better than Eli.

I would be enthusiastic to see a rookie play, that almost certainly be worse than Eli in the short term because of the long term potential upside. We probably not find our future QB with the first shot, that is why I want to start now. The roster as whole has been very poor the last year and this year. These would have been great years to look at someone else. I am tired of kicking the can down the road. Does anyone believe we are winning another SB with Eli Manning? If the answer is no, based on all of the evidence and circumstance(performance since 2012, recent team records, draft position, salary, roster, age, new coach ect), the time to start looking for our new QB was last year, yesterday or today. We wasted some good years for Eli, lets not waste Barkley and Beckham Jr. too. in effort to do right someone the Giants have already paid 235 million dollars(second most NFL all time) to.

In comment 14207559 Keith said:

Quote:

and I think a few are on par with Eli and I think Cam is clearly much better than Eli.

And thats fine. But I just dont think we can say he is one of the worst QBs in the league. Are there Qbs you rather have? Sure. I can see why people may want Cam... I am not going to debate that. Matter of preference.

But when people put guys like Cousins, Ryan, and some others on a pedestal over Eli... I just cant agree with that. Even a guy like rivers. He is having a wonderful year. But I think he would struggle much more on this Giants team because much like Eli - he isnt that mobile. His OL has done pretty well for him this year.

In comment 14207562 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

Does anyone believe we are winning another SB with Eli Manning?

using this theory.... there are 20 other teams that need QBs.

As if all he needs to do is maintain a lead and not turn it over and the defense will win the game for us.

I must watching a different team.

In comment 14207562 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

I would be enthusiastic to see a rookie play, that almost certainly be worse than Eli in the short term because of the long term potential upside. We probably not find our future QB with the first shot, that is why I want to start now. The roster as whole has been very poor the last year and this year. These would have been great years to look at someone else. I am tired of kicking the can down the road. Does anyone believe we are winning another SB with Eli Manning? If the answer is no, based on all of the evidence and circumstance(performance since 2012, recent team records, draft position, salary, roster, age, new coach ect), the time to start looking for our new QB was last year, yesterday or today. We wasted some good years for Eli, lets not waste Barkley and Beckham Jr. too. in effort to do right someone the Giants have already paid 235 million dollars(second most NFL all time) to.

Not just that will we win another SB with Eli, but on top of that, how many other teams have soon to be 38 year old QBs that have made the playoffs once in the past 6 seasons?

In comment 14207567 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14207562 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: Does anyone believe we are winning another SB with Eli Manning? using this theory.... there are 20 other teams that need QBs.

They do, 20 might be a stretch but if don't think the guy on your roster can win a SB, you should be looking for a new QB as long as your goal is to win the SB. If there is some other agenda, then sure, roll with whoever you want.

So keeping that perspective, I think Lombardi is pretty spot on. If the QB was able to make more plays, we'd likely have 2 more wins - easily - and right in the thick of it.

I'm not sure who said it above - maybe Keith? - but we have some of the best weapons in the league. While the oline has not been the Dallas Wall of the '90s, a QB with more mobile skills could help offset some of that.

So, indeed, Eli is holding the offense back. Significantly. And beyond his physical limitations, some via age and some just via DNA, Eli just doesn't look to be consistently reliable in making the best decisions where to go with the ball. And that was one of his key attributes in his prime.

In comment 14207551 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14207544 Keith said: Quote: but lets just talk about Cam. You think Eli in his current state is better than Cam newton??? Do you realize how insane that sounds? Does it? Ok. I dont think Cam is nearly as good as people crack him out to be. But if you think he is better than Eli, thats fine.

It's such a load of crap to say Eli is the one thing holding this offense from being stellar.

The absolute fact is that nobody knows whether poor performances are because Eli is limiting the offense of the OLine is limiting Eli. Nobody would know that until Eli is behind a quality (decent, average, something more than what we have now) and his performance was measured over several games. (We do know that as people subjectively see OLine improvements (i.e.; since the bye week), his performance seems to have improved).

All we really have (on both sides) are the subjective opinions of individuals which they treat as fact around which they build a structure to achieve their pre-formed conclusion. There is no control. Honestly surprised anyone here passed a freshman science class.

In comment 14207556 Dave in Hoboken said:

Quote:

"May or may not be the goods." We can literally say this about every draft pick ever at the time of the draft. No one knows for sure how any player is going to turn out until they play for a few years. Under the 'may or may not be the goods' mindset, since we can say that about anyone, what you're pretty much saying is keep Eli until we know for a fact we have the next guy. There is no knowing for a fact, though.

See IMO, we have a shit ton of holes. RT, C, Edge, MLB, FS, and QB. You go QB in round 1. No pick in the 3rd round. You are really putting all your eggs in a basket. Now if you're picking where the Giants are next spring, and you truly believe in the Qb who is available. Then, yes - you absolutely take him.

I just think there are too many fans are in the mindset to change the QB to change him. That is not how you rebuild.

In comment 14207574 Bill L said:

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In comment 14207551 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 14207544 Keith said: Quote: but lets just talk about Cam. You think Eli in his current state is better than Cam newton??? Do you realize how insane that sounds? Does it? Ok. I dont think Cam is nearly as good as people crack him out to be. But if you think he is better than Eli, thats fine. It's such a load of crap to say Eli is the one thing holding this offense from being stellar. The absolute fact is that nobody knows whether poor performances are because Eli is limiting the offense of the OLine is limiting Eli. Nobody would know that until Eli is behind a quality (decent, average, something more than what we have now) and his performance was measured over several games. (We do know that as people subjectively see OLine improvements (i.e.; since the bye week), his performance seems to have improved).

7 seasons without a playoff win.

In comment 14207576 dep026 said:

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In comment 14207556 Dave in Hoboken said: Quote: "May or may not be the goods." We can literally say this about every draft pick ever at the time of the draft. No one knows for sure how any player is going to turn out until they play for a few years. Under the 'may or may not be the goods' mindset, since we can say that about anyone, what you're pretty much saying is keep Eli until we know for a fact we have the next guy. There is no knowing for a fact, though. See IMO, we have a shit ton of holes. RT, C, Edge, MLB, FS, and QB. You go QB in round 1. No pick in the 3rd round. You are really putting all your eggs in a basket. Now if you're picking where the Giants are next spring, and you truly believe in the Qb who is available. Then, yes - you absolutely take him. I just think there are too many fans are in the mindset to change the QB to change him. That is not how you rebuild.

Obviously it has to be a QB they believe in. Not just some guy that they're lukewarm on.

That being said, you can fix some of the other holes you mentioned with your other picks. We don't have a 3rd round pick this upcoming draft. Okay. But we still have the rest of our picks. And we still have all of our picks in the all of the drafts after that; and since we all agree this isn't a one year fix, that works out just fine. Also, we can fix these other holes you mentioned one at a time, but until you find that next guy and he has some NFL experience under his belt, the team is still going to struggle without a QB.

In comment 14207572 bw in dc said:

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So keeping that perspective, I think Lombardi is pretty spot on. If the QB was able to make more plays, we'd likely have 2 more wins - easily - and right in the thick of it. I'm not sure who said it above - maybe Keith? - but we have some of the best weapons in the league. While the oline has not been the Dallas Wall of the '90s, a QB with more mobile skills could help offset some of that. So, indeed, Eli is holding the offense back. Significantly. And beyond his physical limitations, some via age and some just via DNA, Eli just doesn't look to be consistently reliable in making the best decisions where to go with the ball. And that was one of his key attributes in his prime.

Pure nonsense again from you. Why cant we say with a better OL we would be winning the division? With a better defense we would be winning the division? Cause what if we had Dallas' OL or their LBs? Or what if we had Phillys/Washingtons DL?

We have a great RB and WR. That is not the best in the league. Lets face it.... EE has been a total bust this year. SS hasnt been that guy we all thought he would be.

And our Ol hasnt been the Dallas OL of the 90s? Really going there? Our OL has more holes than the the cheerleaders in Debbie Does Dallas.

And yet we are the highest scoring team in the division.... here's my argument. Maybe if we had defenses as good as the other teams in the league - we would be in first place. right?

In comment 14207574 Bill L said:

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There is no control. Honestly surprised anyone here passed a freshman science class.

Of course, there is no control. This is modern life we are talking about.

IN his prime, was it the WR/TE running wrong routes which caused all the INT's? No way of knowing. The system wasn't suited for Eli which is why he threw so many INT's and didn't have consistency. No way of knowing. Not having a running game was holding Eli back. No way of knowing. Is it the OL or Eli? No way of knowing, yet Eli gets the benefit of the doubt all the time from some people. Eli is the issue, IMO. Nobody is stating anything as a fact, I've written IMO about 100 times. For people like Bill who aren't that bright or are just old and don't understand the lingo, it means...IN MY OPINION. If only everyone was as smart as the legendary Bill L who knows everything.

In comment 14207582 Dave in Hoboken said:

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Obviously it has to be a QB they believe in. Not just some guy that they're lukewarm on. That being said, you can fix some of the other holes you mentioned with your other picks. We don't have a 3rd round pick this upcoming draft. Okay. But we still have the rest of our picks. And we still have all of our picks in the all of the drafts after that; and since we all agree this isn't a one year fix, that works out just fine. Also, we can fix these other holes you mentioned one at a time, but until you find that next guy and he has some NFL experience under his belt, the team is still going to struggle without a QB.

And if the team believes in the QB in round 1. By all means they should take them. I'm saying it wont be the ned of the world if we get an edge rusher in the first, right tackle in the 2nd, and a center in the 4th. If those 3 picks pan out - we will be a better team not only for next year - but also for the future and whoeever replaces Eli.

In comment 14207589 dep026 said:

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In comment 14207582 Dave in Hoboken said: Quote: Obviously it has to be a QB they believe in. Not just some guy that they're lukewarm on. That being said, you can fix some of the other holes you mentioned with your other picks. We don't have a 3rd round pick this upcoming draft. Okay. But we still have the rest of our picks. And we still have all of our picks in the all of the drafts after that; and since we all agree this isn't a one year fix, that works out just fine. Also, we can fix these other holes you mentioned one at a time, but until you find that next guy and he has some NFL experience under his belt, the team is still going to struggle without a QB. And if the team believes in the QB in round 1. By all means they should take them. I'm saying it wont be the ned of the world if we get an edge rusher in the first, right tackle in the 2nd, and a center in the 4th. If those 3 picks pan out - we will be a better team not only for next year - but also for the future and whoeever replaces Eli.

And if we are much better team next year and our record reflects that, where are we getting that QB from since we won't have a top 5-10 draft pick?

In comment 14207590 Dave in Hoboken said:

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And if we are much better team next year and our record reflects that, where are we getting that QB from since we won't have a top 5-10 draft pick?

Thats the million dollar question. A question that over half the league is figuring out. Look at what Detroit has. A very good QB who they cant win or get rid of. Look at Washington. They made a dumb trade/extension and now have nothing to show for it.

Finding a QB is pretty damn hard.

In comment 14207576 dep026 said:

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I just think there are too many fans are in the mindset to change the QB to change him. That is not how you rebuild.

No one wants to change him just to change him. He is an overpaid, aging and declining QB. The team's record since the end of 2011 is well below .500. You don't know if a QB is going to able play in the NFL until he gets experience(Eli has said this). It might take us a few QBs to get it right. We don't have time to build a good enough team to win with Eli with his limited abilities(We would have to be dominant in many other areas) Let's see what Kyle has for the rest of year. Then next year, cut Eli and draft/trade sign another QB, have a preseason battle and move on. Start the process now.

In comment 14207593 dep026 said:

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In comment 14207590 Dave in Hoboken said: Quote: And if we are much better team next year and our record reflects that, where are we getting that QB from since we won't have a top 5-10 draft pick? Thats the million dollar question. A question that over half the league is figuring out. Look at what Detroit has. A very good QB who they cant win or get rid of. Look at Washington. They made a dumb trade/extension and now have nothing to show for it. Finding a QB is pretty damn hard.

And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief.

All those holes you were referring to a couple of posts ago? Some of that money could go towards filling a hole or two next year..

In comment 14207595 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 14207576 dep026 said: Quote: I just think there are too many fans are in the mindset to change the QB to change him. That is not how you rebuild. No one wants to change him just to change him. He is an overpaid, aging and declining QB. The team's record since the end of 2011 is well below .500. You don't know if a QB is going to able play in the NFL until he gets experience(Eli has said this). It might take us a few QBs to get it right. We don't have time to build a good enough team to win with Eli with his limited abilities(We would have to be dominant in many other areas) Let's see what Kyle has for the rest of year. Then next year, cut Eli and draft/trade sign another QB, have a preseason battle and move on. Start the process now.

Eli Manning is not the main reason we have stunk for years. You can say he is in decline, but there are many more factors that have led to our downfall.

It might take a few QBs to get it right? Wait, what? That makes no sense. You have to get it right and just putting people in there doesnt make sense nor should it be done.

And why does building a team have to be for Eli? Wouldnt getting a better OL do wonders for Barkley? I mean, if he is producing with this shit OL - imagine what he would do with just an average one or believe it or not - a GOOD OL?

And you want to play a player just to play him even if he isnt ready? Wow.

I've never seen such insanity in re: to one player before in any sport in my life. It's actually hilarious at this point.

In comment 14207597 Dave in Hoboken said:

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And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief. All those holes you were referring to a couple of posts ago? Some of that money could go towards filling a hole or two next year..

Didnt we spend over 200 million on a defense that collapsed after just one year? Didnt we just sign a LT to the most expensive contract in lineman history for average results? Didnt we just give over 5 million a year to a guy who was cut midyear? Eli's contract hasnt restricted us from getting some very expensive players.

Again, you dont rebuild through FA. You rebuild from the draft.

In comment 14207583 dep026 said:

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Pure nonsense again from you. Why cant we say with a better OL we would be winning the division? With a better defense we would be winning the division? Cause what if we had Dallas' OL or their LBs? Or what if we had Phillys/Washingtons DL? We have a great RB and WR. That is not the best in the league. Lets face it.... EE has been a total bust this year. SS hasnt been that guy we all thought he would be. And our Ol hasnt been the Dallas OL of the 90s? Really going there? Our OL has more holes than the the cheerleaders in Debbie Does Dallas. And yet we are the highest scoring team in the division.... here's my argument. Maybe if we had defenses as good as the other teams in the league - we would be in first place. right?

Well, we knew coming into the season the defense wasn't a strength. So the expectation was, at least how I was interpreting the off-season, that we'd be competitive by being a prolific offense. That's why we invested so many cap dollars into the offense during the off-season.

Rebuilt oline (free agency & draft), re-invested in OBJ, high draft pick in RB, hired offensive guru.

Right?

The question was if Eli was holding the offense back. If you think Eli has been in prime form was his decision making, then I underestimated your understanding of the game.

"And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief."

I agree this 100%. And that's why I think the Giants need to release Eli in February no matter what. Eli's past and achievements are clouding everyone's judgement, judgement about his on-the-field-performance, what is his true market price, how the elite NCAA QBs project into the NFL and what kind of team to build. This has to stop.

In comment 14207601 dep026 said:

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In comment 14207597 Dave in Hoboken said: Quote: And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief. All those holes you were referring to a couple of posts ago? Some of that money could go towards filling a hole or two next year.. Didnt we spend over 200 million on a defense that collapsed after just one year? Didnt we just sign a LT to the most expensive contract in lineman history for average results? Didnt we just give over 5 million a year to a guy who was cut midyear? Eli's contract hasnt restricted us from getting some very expensive players. Again, you dont rebuild through FA. You rebuild from the draft.

I didn't say you rebuild towards FA. I said you can fill a hole or two in FA and the draft is obviously the driving force in the rebuild.

But that doesn't mean the team shouldn't use money available to them to try to fill a hole or two. It's all about signing the right guys. Look at Antonio Piece, Kareem McKenzie, and Plax all signed in 2005 and all were huge factors in winning SB 42.

In comment 14207599 Dave in Hoboken said:

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I've never seen such insanity in re: to one player before in any sport in my life. It's actually hilarious at this point.

Haha. Reading BBI the last year or so has left me speculating about certain posters experiencing a sort of midlife-crisis-by-proxy. You wonder whether there is some sort of neurotic struggle going on.

In comment 14207430 dep026 said:

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In comment 14207419 hitdog42 said: Quote: of the giants. the offense, i mean yeah sure he can't move well and that holds back a lot of things- but the team stinks so who really cares. him being here still at 37 with some prime skill level guys delays them having the chance to be great by like 2 more yrs every year he stays. So you're assuming the guy who replaces him is going to have a better impact. Pretty bold statement. And by the way.... OBJ and Barkley are having pretty good years. Lets not act like they arent getting theirs.

im assuming its a waste of time holding out hope that a immobile 37yr old will find a fountain of youth, and because of that the organization ins unable to move on.

that is all--- not assuming anything-- thus i said judging if he is holding back the offense... its hard to say, but the organization, yes its obvious they cant move on until he is gone

In comment 14207603 bw in dc said:

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Well, we knew coming into the season the defense wasn't a strength. So the expectation was, at least how I was interpreting the off-season, that we'd be competitive by being a prolific offense. That's why we invested so many cap dollars into the offense during the off-season. Rebuilt oline (free agency & draft), re-invested in OBJ, high draft pick in RB, hired offensive guru. Right? The question was if Eli was holding the offense back. If you think Eli has been in prime form was his decision making, then I underestimated your understanding of the game.

We didnt think the defense was going to be a strength? So all of the offseason praise Vernon got? Trading for Ogletree? Snacks? Collins? Jackrabbit? Tomlinson in his 2nd year? I think many people had high hopes for the defense...

And the investments in OL failed. Shurmur hasnt been that great. And EE/SS have failed to get better. Barkley has been great. OBJ has been good. Hernandez has been solid. The rest of the players havent. I dont see how this is arguable.

yeah none of that is even arguable. Why is anyone wasting their time?

In comment 14207616 Keith said:

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yeah none of that is even arguable. Why is anyone wasting their time?

Then whats false?

lets start with the skill players. OBJ is good and none of them have gotten better. How the hell do we know that when ou QB can't get them the ball? High expectations for the defense??? what a load of crap that is. Nobody had high expectations of this defense after last year and then not adding much talent.

In comment 14207619 Keith said:

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lets start with the skill players. OBJ is good and none of them have gotten better. How the hell do we know that when ou QB can't get them the ball? High expectations for the defense??? what a load of crap that is. Nobody had high expectations of this defense after last year and then not adding much talent.

Oh yeah. I am sorry I forgot it is Eli's fault that Engram has done next to nothing this year. I am sorry I forgot that SS dropped key passes against Jax and Chicago with the game on the line. And the QB cant get them the ball? Odell is on pace for a career high in receptions.

And we pumped a lot of money on the defense. High draft picks and high investments dollar wise on these players. You expected them to play poorly? Ok.

He�s not the same QB. He�s likely not getting any better and isn�t good enough to carry this team?

What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster.

It might get worse replacing him but it�s not likely to get better with him.

Here�s what will happen:

Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.

In comment 14207625 ajr2456 said:

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He�s not the same QB. He�s likely not getting any better and isn�t good enough to carry this team? What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster. It might get worse replacing him but it�s not likely to get better with him. Here�s what will happen: Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.

What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable?

What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?

In comment 14207627 dep026 said:

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In comment 14207625 ajr2456 said: Quote: He�s not the same QB. He�s likely not getting any better and isn�t good enough to carry this team? What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster. It might get worse replacing him but it�s not likely to get better with him. Here�s what will happen: Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back. What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable? What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?

You literally can't worry about 'what if?' You could play the what if game for the next 10 years. So, keep Eli for the next decade?

People really, really overthink this. I've never seen anything like this before ever.

In comment 14207627 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14207625 ajr2456 said: Quote: He�s not the same QB. He�s likely not getting any better and isn�t good enough to carry this team? What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster. It might get worse replacing him but it�s not likely to get better with him. Here�s what will happen: Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back. What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable? What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?

What if we draft the next Luck or Rodgers?

What if having an average QB improves the offense enough to become a contender?

what's holding back the team is that there is a serious lack of talent on the team, specifically on the offensive line.

For years, the roster has been barren with a few highlight-grabbing skill players but on a foundation of crap.


1. The Giants had historic levels of games lost due to injuries over a several year period of time

Here is where the Giants ranked in Football Outsiders's Adjusted Games Lost to Injury* (1 is least games lost, 32 is most games lost)

2017: 25
2016: 7
2015: 32
2014: 32
2013: 32
2012: 25
2011: 26
2010: 22
2008-2010 average: 14

It is astounding. Think of all the Giants players with potential/production whose careers were completely cut short and needed to be replaced? Steve Smith, Terrell Thomas, Kenny Phillips, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Ahmad Bradshaw, and David Wilson. Throw in Chad Jones's car accident and the two Sintim ACL tears before the start of his third season

Teams have limited draft/FA capital and when it has to be used to constantly replace high-producing guys, other parts of the team are going to suffer.

Look at how many "skill position" players the Giants thought they were set with had their careers shortened dramatically. That caused Reese/Ross to keep trying to refill those skill positions with key draft picks and there was a residual effect.

2. Jerry Reese and Mark Ross ignored signs that the offensive line from pre 2010 was deteriorating, and instead of putting a lot of draft resources into making sure it was strong enough to protect their franchise non-running QB, they invested in athletes whose measurables wowed them.

In Reese's (and Ross's) entire tenure, 12 drafts, the Giants took 11 Offensive linemen compared with 9 RBs, 9 WRs, and 5 receiving TEs.

By comparison, the Patriots took 21 offensive linemen and 5 RBs in that span.

What money did we pump into the defense from last year to make them better??

SS is so underrated. He's not being used the right way because we barely get him the ball. Every WR has drops, can we acknowledge that? Or is it ok only to acknowledge that every QB has INT's so we shouldn't hold Eli accountable?

Engram has been disappointing, but again, we are not using him to the best of his abilities. He's a guy that will do damage in space, but we just can't get him the ball. Our QB looks for a read and then starts hearing footsteps, makes it kind of hard. Also makes it hard for receivers when they don't get consistent looks.

So on one hand you say OBJ is set for some career highs, but on the other hand he's only been good. Can you explain?

In comment 14207629 Dave in Hoboken said:

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You literally can't worry about 'what if?' You could play the what if game for the next 10 years. So, keep Eli for the next decade? People really, really overthink this. I've never seen anything like this before ever.

My what "ifs" were in response to the prior odd stance.

This isnt hard. You replace Eli when you find the right person to do so. If its through the draft, FA, trade, or whatever. You jsut dont replace him to replace him though. That makes absolutely no sense.

So if it means you replace him in 2020, then thats when it will be. We arent a QB away from contending. So if there is an edge rusher or OL that grade out higher than a QB, you take them.

You're right. I've never seen anything like this before either.

In comment 14207186 ajr2456 said:

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In comment 14207176 USAF NYG Fan said: Quote: I also see decline in Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, etc. The only one of their era I don't see in decline is Brees. However, he is still a top half of the league QB. As the OL improves, so does Eli. I don't think that's a coincidence. The only "Elite" season I think Eli had was 2011. Ironically when he was asked if he thinks he's Elite. I don't think Eli is holding the team back but he's no longer the spark that can push them forward. Honestly, that's fine with me. Barkley is the spark now. A solid run game and pass rush is truly what the team needs. The team is a run first offense now but Shurmur hasn't appeared to have accepted that yet. Unless there is a great QB prospect that they can go after in the draft, I feel the team is better off drafting OL. Often times it's a choice between a good run blocking OLmen or a pass blocking one. If that's the case, go after a great run blocking one. I don't care if it's a passing league. The run sets up the pass far better then it does the other way around. That hasn't changed. After that, pass rushers are a big need. Gurley, Elliot, and Barkley are the top 3 rushers right now. Cowboys and Rams are top 10 rushing offenses. Giants are a bottom 10 rushing offense. What's that tell you? Most of the teams leading their division having great rushers. Again, the Giants' do better rushing the ball. They have improved (to include Eli) when the OL plays better. Eli's stats are still top 10 (barely) according to NFL.com with what is still a sub-standard OL. I'd say he's still at least middle of the league because like most say, stats can be misleading. However, he's still a solid starter in this league. RUN THE DAMN BALL! Improve the OL in the off-season as the priority. Pass rushers being as a solid 1B in priority. Get a new QB ONLY if they are enamored with one. Except run first offenses don�t win in today�s NFL. Sure Eli has improved as the oline has played better but those weren�t elite QB performances that can carry a team. How much better can the rest of the roster be built up to make up for not having a QB who can carry you to a win. It also has to be kept in context that those �better� performances were against a bad 49ers team, a Bucs defense that is worse than ours, a Philly defense missing everyone. He wasn�t great against the Bears.

A little late getting back to you but ....

The league passes the ball more than it runs the ball, I'm not disputing this. I'm saying you still need to run the ball. You still need to effectively run the ball to setup the pass and that works far more effectively than the other way around.

6 of the 8 division leaders are top 10 in the league for rushing vs passing plays; Patriots, Texans, Cowboys, Bears, Saints, and Rams. Giants, they are in the bottom 5.

Eli had nearly a perfect game against the Bucs and regardless of how bad they are, his performance was better than every other QB that faced them. The Eagles pass rush was still good and that's what you look at when determining OL play. I thought Eli did his job well during the Bears game.

In comment 14207619 Keith said:

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lets start with the skill players. OBJ is good and none of them have gotten better. How the hell do we know that when ou QB can't get them the ball? High expectations for the defense??? what a load of crap that is. Nobody had high expectations of this defense after last year and then not adding much talent.

He can't get them the ball? So who is he completing passes to 68% of the time he manages to throw one then? Are those imaginary receivers?

He was terrible in the first half. Then we come out in the second half and we score a TD where he's not asked to pass the ball. We come out running and having success running and then OBJ threw a TD. Eli wasn't bad for the remainder of the second half after that, but was he really good? I guess the bar is pretty low right now.

In comment 14207636 Keith said:

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What money did we pump into the defense from last year to make them better?? SS is so underrated. He's not being used the right way because we barely get him the ball. Every WR has drops, can we acknowledge that? Or is it ok only to acknowledge that every QB has INT's so we shouldn't hold Eli accountable? Engram has been disappointing, but again, we are not using him to the best of his abilities. He's a guy that will do damage in space, but we just can't get him the ball. Our QB looks for a read and then starts hearing footsteps, makes it kind of hard. Also makes it hard for receivers when they don't get consistent looks. So on one hand you say OBJ is set for some career highs, but on the other hand he's only been good. Can you explain?

1. Well we brought in a MLB that everyone seemed pretty stoked about. We had some quality guys returning. I think many peoiple thought the defense would be at least better than 2017. Maybe not 2016, but definitely not this bad.
2. SS is a solid player. EE has been bad. But if they are being used wrong - thats coaching.

As far as OBJ. He's been good. Great? In some games he has been. I dont think he has been bad. I dont think he has hurt the Giants whatsoever. I understand teams are taking him away with bracket coverages and double teams. I dont think he has had the impact like Barkley. I know many of the posters here will blame Eli not getting him or missing him a few times. Thats fine.

But he has been our 2nd best player. I see nothing wrong with that.

In comment 14207638 dep026 said:

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In comment 14207629 Dave in Hoboken said: Quote: You literally can't worry about 'what if?' You could play the what if game for the next 10 years. So, keep Eli for the next decade? People really, really overthink this. I've never seen anything like this before ever. My what "ifs" were in response to the prior odd stance. This isnt hard. You replace Eli when you find the right person to do so. If its through the draft, FA, trade, or whatever. You jsut dont replace him to replace him though. That makes absolutely no sense. So if it means you replace him in 2020, then thats when it will be. We arent a QB away from contending. So if there is an edge rusher or OL that grade out higher than a QB, you take them. You're right. I've never seen anything like this before either.

"When the right person is there to do so."

But as you said, you never know for sure. Any QB can be the next Gabbert. So, maybe since they'll never know for sure and any player can bust at anytime, they should just trade the picks for proven NFL players. The mindset makes no sense.

The one fact is that only constant on this team/offense for the past 6-7 years now is Eli. The head coach has been changed multiple times. New coaching staff. New GM. The OL has been turned over again. New WRs. New RB. New TE. Literally everything is new except the one constant.

doesnt mean they are better, right?

so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling?

In comment 14207655 dep026 said:

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doesnt mean they are better, right?

No. But by that mindset, no QB ever should lose his job, or retire, or get traded ever.

In comment 14207656 Keith said:

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so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling?

2 underperforming cancerous players for a legit MLB team leader? To go along with former ALL-PRO members and highly paid players? I thought they would be better than this. You're selling that you thought they would be this bad?

In comment 14207658 Dave in Hoboken said:

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In comment 14207655 dep026 said: Quote: doesnt mean they are better, right? No. But by that mindset, no QB ever should lose his job, or retire, or get traded ever.

No, he is going too. It could be this offseason. It could be in 2020.

In comment 14207659 dep026 said:

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In comment 14207656 Keith said: Quote: so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling? This defense had one good corner back, a bunch of unproven players in the secondary and unproven pass rushers, and you thought they�d be better? 2 underperforming cancerous players for a legit MLB team leader? To go along with former ALL-PRO members and highly paid players? I thought they would be better than this. You're selling that you thought they would be this bad?

was....

Jenkins - pro bowler
Apple - first round pick
Collins - all pro
unproven FS/Nickel.

They should have been a lot better than what they became.

In comment 14207659 dep026 said:

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In comment 14207656 Keith said: Quote: so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling? 2 underperforming cancerous players for a legit MLB team leader? To go along with former ALL-PRO members and highly paid players? I thought they would be better than this. You're selling that you thought they would be this bad?

I'm not sure what they really did to improve. I don't think JPP is cancerous either. I never thought Ogletree was going to turn us from a terrible defense to a great defense. I expected maybe marginal improvement. The offense has been way more disappointing to me. We have way too much talent at the skill position players to be this inept.

lets say all of what you are saying is true?

Did you expect the defense to give up more PPG this year than last year? I am sorry, but thats a really tough sell for me.

In comment 14207627 dep026 said:

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In comment 14207625 ajr2456 said: Quote: He�s not the same QB. He�s likely not getting any better and isn�t good enough to carry this team? What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster. It might get worse replacing him but it�s not likely to get better with him. Here�s what will happen: Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back. What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable? What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?

The medium-term future of the Giants is completely dependent on whether the management believes they can improve the talent of the team to championship level in the window of good play Manning has left.

Looking at the number of positions that are deeply flawed on this team going into the off-season; RT, RG, C, WR depth, TE, FS, SS, CB depth, DE/Edge -- I don't see those two windows aligning.

The Giants will get better with some better players and build on this year, health permitting. Doesn't need to be "what if." But does that get you into the championship conversation?

In comment 14207588 Keith said:

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IN his prime, was it the WR/TE running wrong routes which caused all the INT's? No way of knowing. The system wasn't suited for Eli which is why he threw so many INT's and didn't have consistency. No way of knowing. Not having a running game was holding Eli back. No way of knowing. Is it the OL or Eli? No way of knowing, yet Eli gets the benefit of the doubt all the time from some people. Eli is the issue, IMO. Nobody is stating anything as a fact, I've written IMO about 100 times. For people like Bill who aren't that bright or are just old and don't understand the lingo, it means...IN MY OPINION. If only everyone was as smart as the legendary Bill L who knows everything.

You see the paradox there, right?

In comment 14207656 Keith said:

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so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling?

What he is selling, is anything that he can say, to make it seem reasonable(only to him) to keep trotting Eli out htere for the rest of this year, next year, and until the next Aaron Rodgers or sure thing is available(will never happen).

In comment 14207677 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 14207656 Keith said: Quote: so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling? What he is selling, is anything that he can say, to make it seem reasonable(only to him) to keep trotting Eli out htere for the rest of this year, next year, and until the next Aaron Rodgers or sure thing is available(will never happen).

Pretty much

In comment 14207677 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 14207656 Keith said: Quote: so last year we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL. We got rid of JPP and DRC and brought in Ogletree and everyone thought we'd have a good defnese? Is that what you are selling? What he is selling, is anything that he can say, to make it seem reasonable(only to him) to keep trotting Eli out htere for the rest of this year, next year, and until the next Aaron Rodgers or sure thing is available(will never happen).

lol. Wow.

In comment 14207646 Keith said:

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He was terrible in the first half. Then we come out in the second half and we score a TD where he's not asked to pass the ball. We come out running and having success running and then OBJ threw a TD. Eli wasn't bad for the remainder of the second half after that, but was he really good? I guess the bar is pretty low right now.

Yes. Yes, I think he did his job well against the Bears. The same Bears that have 2 players in the defensive backfield in the top 5 for interceptions. The interception going to Kyle Fuller who has the 2nd most interceptions. The Bears who have one of the best defenses in the league.

I'm not saying Eli is some great QB but he's not holding the team back either. He's in the middle of the pack and I don't see anyone better available or coming up in the 2019 draft. Don't see it from last year's draft class either.

This board has always been almost schizophrenic in response to discussing Eli, partly because so many here want desperately for him to be seen as great, a HOF player.

He might be, but it sure as heck won't be a shoo in choice like so many other QBs of his generation, like Peyton, Brees, Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, Rodgers... The stats just don't shine bright enough for Eli relative to his peers, and every one who watches football knows that except us Giants fans.

Eli has been great at moments, and he's been incredibly heroic in certain games, like his play in the arctic cold NFC championship over Favre in Green Bay, and in the rain versus Harbaugh's brutal 9ers D in SF. The real Road Warrior.

But he hasn't been a great QB over vast expanses of his career. The team's record with him starting is barely above .500... And it's not all been on his supporting staff.

But give him an OL, with two great future HOF team mates like OBJ and Saquon Barkley, and


Eli will be fine. He hasn't lost that much from who he was when he won Lombardi trophies.

He wasn't great then, and he won't need to be great in 2019. Give him an OL to protect him, and let Saquon and Odell be the superstars.

Let Eli be Eli, "cool as the other side of the pillow" and he will be enough.