This isnt meant to be a pro-Eli or anti-Eli thread. Its just an honest question with regards to the state of the Giants offense 3/4 through the season.
I listened to The Ringer NFL podcast today where Mike Lombardi said the Giants would be competing for the NFC East if they had better QB play. I see tweets every week of plays where WRs are running free and Eli is not seeing them.
On the other side, he can still make the throws (should have had a game winner in OT last week). He played nearly perfect games in Houston & against TB. We all know the status of the OL from earlier this year.
Where do you fall with regards to Elis impact on the overall success of the 2018 Giants?
This thread is 100% going to turn into what you don't want it to. Pro-Eli vs Anti-Eli with the same cast of characters on each side.
This is exactly my sentiment so I'm going to skip all the bashing that I'm sure is occurring with the other 48 posts. +1.
Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost.
Such a weak, weak argument.
You see its quotes like this, that really bother me. The OP brought up a legitimate question, and someone contributed with a meaningful response. He was then told to, and I quote "Get the F*** out of here"....
You can't even have a civil conversation, without someone being abusive. There are several prominent posters here, who almost every single day, are in violation of BBI conduct and policy. They have contributed to the degradation of this site, and are the main reason why so many good posters have bounced out of this place.
Something I will never, never understand, is how someone can verbally abuse another fellow Giants fan who has a different opinion, that I will never support.
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In comment 14206596 giants#1 said:
Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost.
Such a weak, weak argument.
You see its quotes like this, that really bother me. The OP brought up a legitimate question, and someone contributed with a meaningful response. He was then told to, and I quote "Get the F*** out of here"....
You can't even have a civil conversation, without someone being abusive. There are several prominent posters here, who almost every single day, are in violation of BBI conduct and policy. They have contributed to the degradation of this site, and are the main reason why so many good posters have bounced out of this place.
Something I will never, never understand, is how someone can verbally abuse another fellow Giants fan who has a different opinion, that I will never support.
1, First off assmunch.... my reply wasnt even to the OP or his question that he brought up - so there's lie NUMBER 1 and 2.
2. Do some more RESEARCH.
You fill BBi with lies and BS research to pass off agendas. You are a troll at this point. Only reason you are bringing this up is because I prove your "research" wrong every time you bring something up.
Get lost.
When protection is good, and even when he's on a designed roll-out, he's solid. Unfortunately for Eli, it may prove simpler for the team to replace him with a QB that can move a little than to wait (and hope) that the OL can improve enough to suit Eli.
I doubt any QB in the league wouldve carried the Giants to a few wins early in the season. How did Brees look vs Dallas last week with pressure in his face all night? How many points did the prolific Saints offense score? Thats what Eli was seeing every week until they made a few moves along the OL.
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It's not necessarily his fault, but the offense does not align with what he does well.
Eli's best throws have always been intermediate to deep, outside the numbers. Outs, comebacks, fades, back shoulder fades (have completely disappeared)...
His strength was never as a distributor trying to maximize YAC. He's not an accurate enough thrower short for that.
It's one of many ways that the front office and coaches have failed to align scheme with available talent. /////
I couldn't agree more.
I doubt any QB in the league wouldve carried the Giants to a few wins early in the season. How did Brees look vs Dallas last week with pressure in his face all night? How many points did the prolific Saints offense score? Thats what Eli was seeing every week until they made a few moves along the OL.
As you can see in the post below yours.... it doesnt matter other circumstances. Its ALWAYS Eli's fault.
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In comment 14206587 dep026 said:
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This notion is absolutely ridiculous. Blaming one guy for an entire offense's failures is lame (Lombardi sucks by the way. The worst QB evaluator of all time).
In the last 5 games we are averaging nearly 30 PPG and have won 3 of 4, so the offense is getting better. People are forgetting that the first half of the year outside the Eagles game, we were WRETCHED running the ball, the defnese never got a stop when needed. And Shurmur made mistakes constantly.
These notions are silly cause you have to think back which games did Eli cost us. Not the ones where he played poorly. But games where he single handily missed throws to lose games. People can argue that Jacksonville game, and that may be the only one.
Philly game 2. That INT to end the half took points off the board (Rosas is nearly automatic) and was a momentum swinger.
Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost.
Such a weak, weak argument.
Wait, what? No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game? What are you talking about? Rhonde Barber pick 6 to close down the Vet? Corey Webster in January 2008? I mean obviously there are many many others and even if INTs don't come in the 4th quarter they take points off the board and give the opposing team a new possession. Turnovers are huge plays in football games. In football and in particular the NFL the QB is more responsible than any other single player for a team winning and losing, period.
Not trying to pick on you here, Dep, but shouting down and insulting everybody with a different point of view than you is doing nothing to help your argument.
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How people continue to cast aside the OL play despite the fact that theyve seen a noticeable difference in OL play since the Giants acquired Brown. The team is a second half meltdown away from being undefeated since his acquisition.
I doubt any QB in the league wouldve carried the Giants to a few wins early in the season. How did Brees look vs Dallas last week with pressure in his face all night? How many points did the prolific Saints offense score? Thats what Eli was seeing every week until they made a few moves along the OL.
As you can see in the post below yours.... it doesnt matter other circumstances. Its ALWAYS Eli's fault.
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But there are about 24-27 teams in the league that can say that. So it is a pointless, limited, elementary discussion.
The OL would limit ANY quarterback. You can't get beyond that.
And before anyone wants to kick Manning to the curb, please tell me what your plan is for the 2019 QB in this offense. Specific please.
This is exactly right.
What do you mean what your plan is? You can easily get either a Top level Guard, Tackle or OC for the savings you get from Eli.. Use the draft to find BPA at QB, OC, G or RT and improve our OL.. Once the OL is good with our talent, any run of the mill QB that we draft following year can lead the team to victories.. Just look at Dak.. If Eli needs studs OL, Stud RB, Stud WR and a pretty good Slow WR to win.. I can get that from fourth rounder like Dak.. It may mean another bad year for Giants.. but its not like we aren't use to those by now.. at least we will have long term stability on Offense with a bright future with our stud WR and RB to help any average QB look good..
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all he does is creates lies.
Not trying to pick on you here, Dep, but shouting down and insulting everybody with a different point of view than you is doing nothing to help your argument.
In all honesty... I try not to personally attack a poster. Nor do I lie. Yes I do go after peoples opinions a lot.
But when you need to lie, its as sad as it gets.
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In comment 14206715 WillVAB said:
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How people continue to cast aside the OL play despite the fact that theyve seen a noticeable difference in OL play since the Giants acquired Brown. The team is a second half meltdown away from being undefeated since his acquisition.
I doubt any QB in the league wouldve carried the Giants to a few wins early in the season. How did Brees look vs Dallas last week with pressure in his face all night? How many points did the prolific Saints offense score? Thats what Eli was seeing every week until they made a few moves along the OL.
As you can see in the post below yours.... it doesnt matter other circumstances. Its ALWAYS Eli's fault.
It isn't always Eli's fault. No one contends that the rosters Eli has been supported with have been poor. Everyone agrees. We believe his play has also declined. There are many advanced metrics, analysts, current players and former players that say Eli has declined. The people that think he is still an above average QB are the ones that think it is never his fault. Everything can be explained away with circumstantial evidence and outlier games are proof that he is still above average. Bluntly, we think people with that opinion are stupid. I totally get you think we are stupid for not seeing what you think you see. It is what is. No one will change anyone mind. Statistics are ignored out of hand. This is no different than conservative vs liberal arguments. We are a country that loves to argue. BBI is just a microcosm of it.
Many of you do. There are posters here who have been shitting on him since 2007.
I agree he is in decline too. Ive said it all year.
Watch out for certain Canadiens. He likes Raptors.
O-line completely failed - he still got the job done.
now....?
vs SF - ( New Window )
The OL would limit ANY quarterback. You can't get beyond that.
And before anyone wants to kick Manning to the curb, please tell me what your plan is for the 2019 QB in this offense. Specific please.
👍👍 Is this specific enough?
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In comment 14206596 giants#1 said:
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In comment 14206587 dep026 said:
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This notion is absolutely ridiculous. Blaming one guy for an entire offense's failures is lame (Lombardi sucks by the way. The worst QB evaluator of all time).
In the last 5 games we are averaging nearly 30 PPG and have won 3 of 4, so the offense is getting better. People are forgetting that the first half of the year outside the Eagles game, we were WRETCHED running the ball, the defnese never got a stop when needed. And Shurmur made mistakes constantly.
These notions are silly cause you have to think back which games did Eli cost us. Not the ones where he played poorly. But games where he single handily missed throws to lose games. People can argue that Jacksonville game, and that may be the only one.
Philly game 2. That INT to end the half took points off the board (Rosas is nearly automatic) and was a momentum swinger.
Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost.
Such a weak, weak argument.
Wait, what? No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game? What are you talking about? Rhonde Barber pick 6 to close down the Vet? Corey Webster in January 2008? I mean obviously there are many many others and even if INTs don't come in the 4th quarter they take points off the board and give the opposing team a new possession. Turnovers are huge plays in football games. In football and in particular the NFL the QB is more responsible than any other single player for a team winning and losing, period.
For some reason I didnt include first half INT. I meant to say there has never been a time when a first half INT has cost a team a win. And there will never be one either.
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In comment 14206596 giants#1 said:
Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost.
Such a weak, weak argument.
You see its quotes like this, that really bother me. The OP brought up a legitimate question, and someone contributed with a meaningful response. He was then told to, and I quote "Get the F*** out of here"....
You can't even have a civil conversation, without someone being abusive. There are several prominent posters here, who almost every single day, are in violation of BBI conduct and policy. They have contributed to the degradation of this site, and are the main reason why so many good posters have bounced out of this place.
Something I will never, never understand, is how someone can verbally abuse another fellow Giants fan who has a different opinion, that I will never support.
+1.
The offensive line for the majority of the season has been downright dreadful. It has gotten better since Jamon Brown came along and since Solder started playing better, but it still needs a lot of work.
Eli was never a scrambling QB. So, yes, a more mobile QB would make things easier. But that's on the franchise for not having an offensive line for the last decade around their franchise QB, not on the QB.
Of course Eli could play better. And of course there are QBs in the league that would do better behind this line.
But I would say, with conviction, that this offensive line (which is 45% of the starters) is holding back this offense far, FAR more than Eli is.
Eli's "Aggressiveness" percentage (% of attempts into tight windows where defender is w/1 yard) is at 19%, 4th highest in the league. For comparison, Brady is at 15% and Brees is at 16.9%
Eli is among the top in the league in how fast he gets rid of the ball (2.61 seconds, Ben fastest at 2.56) while being T-2nd in the league in sacks.
For the talk that all Eli does is check down, his "completed air yardage" (yards ball travels in air on completions) is 5.2, higher than Ben, Stafford, and tied with Cam, and just behind Brady (5.4) and his intended air yardage (distance ball travels on all attempts) is tied with Brees at 7.2 (Luck and Brady are 7.3 and 7.4, respectively).
What all that tells me is that Eli's offensive line has been terrible such that he's constantly under duress when teams use anything more than 4 rushers, he gets rid of the ball quickly, is still sacked all the time, and by the time Eli has to get rid of the ball, our receivers haven't had much separation.
He would save roughly $17M if cut for 2019 & if it is deemed hes holding the team back, he will likely be cut.
If it is deemed he can still play, he may be signed to a 2-3 year deal.
Pretty significant Id say.
He would save roughly $17M if cut for 2019 & if it is deemed hes holding the team back, he will likely be cut.
If it is deemed he can still play, he may be signed to a 2-3 year deal.
Pretty significant Id say.
And the line has been drawn. And we will find out when Gettleman and Shurmur announce it after the draft.
And no matter how many times and ways you tell me he should be cut, and no matter how many times and ways I tell you why he won't be/shouldn't, it won't change a thing.
It's very clear who here feels what about Eli. It's been screamed definitively from every mountain top. Nobody's opinion has or will change.
I guess my question would be, what makes this particular discussion different from the 10,000 previous discussions on the topic so far this season?
And if DG can fix the OL, I still think Eli is a better bet than Herbert or Jones.
The OL would limit ANY quarterback. You can't get beyond that.
And before anyone wants to kick Manning to the curb, please tell me what your plan is for the 2019 QB in this offense. Specific please.
There are 27 teams that are held back by their QB? I don't know about that. I guess it depends what your definition of holding them back are.
Chiefs - Mahomes
Seahawks - Wilson
Saints - Brees
Rams - Goff
Houston - Watson
Colts - Luck
Chargers - Rivers
Pats- Brady
Big Ben is on the teetering point. Thats not counting the rookies like Mayfield and Jackson.
The plan for 2019 should be to take a shot on a guy like Bridgewater or Lauletta - if you end up bad again so be it. Use the cap savings from Eli to fill whatever holes you can and build enough chemistry to insert a QB in 2020.
At some point we have to move on, and this is the perfect out.
Mara is the reason that the incompetent Reese and Ross lasted so long as team executives tasked with player personnel acquisition, evaluation, and retention decisions. Mara hired Reese as his GM, getting a guy with a fatally flawed concept of NFL team construction. He then watched Reese hire the incompetent Ross to run his draft process. He then waited five or six years too long to fire both them after it became apparent that they weren't getting the job done. And we are now only one year, almost to the day, into the tenure of the guys hired to fix the problems that were created over much of a decade.
Reese and Ross are the reason that the GIANTS OL has shit the bed for years and is still pretty bad, turning Eli from one of the best in the league into a shell of his former self. DG is fixing it as fast as he can, but it is a long process especially with all the other crying needs this team has. This mess can't be fixed over one season, there's just too much to be done.
I can't give Pat Shurmur and Mike Shula a total pass on this either, but anything negative they have contributed pales in comparison to the still-lingering major damage done by Reese and Ross, not only to the offense but also to the defense. And the defense's inability to get off the field at times just makes the work of the offense even more difficult, so that's another area that is holding back the GIANTS offense.
Man, your tugging at the strings of my heart.
I'm done. I'm done losing. The NYG have played in one playoff game since 2012.
The NYG have shipped everyone out thus holding everyone accountable for this string of ineptitude - they have released former 1st round picks, cut high priced FA, declined to resign aging vets and Giants legends, benched former stars.
They have fired head coaches, coordinators, scouts and front office people.
No one gets a pass and/or excused from this brutal string of play except for one guy.
Zak Diossi.
He would save roughly $17M if cut for 2019 & if it is deemed hes holding the team back, he will likely be cut.
If it is deemed he can still play, he may be signed to a 2-3 year deal.
Pretty significant Id say.
Maybe, Im totally wrong about this but I thought Eli was set to make $22-23 million next year and cutting him would save $17 million in cap space but John Mara would still have to pay him $6million. Assuming Elis cut then you got to do out and sign a journeyman QB for next year which is gonna cost you probably at least $10 million a year. Josh McCown of the Jets signed a 1 year contract for that amount. So you are still looking at at least a $16-17 million replacement cost. If Im John Mara, from a business perspective Im not sure I dont just let Eli play out that contract. At least I know what Im getting for my money. If you dont go the journeyman route than you are locking yourself in to taking a QB who might not be there or worth it.
Its kind of a dumb thesis. With the exception of Barkley and arguably Beckham, you could pick any player on the offense and upgraded and we would have won a game or two more. Could we then say that that incumbent was holding the team back?
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This will likely be the biggest decision the Giants make this offseason. Shurmur did not commit to Eli for 2019 with Francesa next year which is interesting since he is under contract.
He would save roughly $17M if cut for 2019 & if it is deemed hes holding the team back, he will likely be cut.
If it is deemed he can still play, he may be signed to a 2-3 year deal.
Pretty significant Id say.
Maybe, Im totally wrong about this but I thought Eli was set to make $22-23 million next year and cutting him would save $17 million in cap space but John Mara would still have to pay him $6million. Assuming Elis cut then you got to do out and sign a journeyman QB for next year which is gonna cost you probably at least $10 million a year. Josh McCown of the Jets signed a 1 year contract for that amount. So you are still looking at at least a $16-17 million replacement cost. If Im John Mara, from a business perspective Im not sure I dont just let Eli play out that contract. At least I know what Im getting for my money. If you dont go the journeyman route than you are locking yourself in to taking a QB who might not be there or worth it.
That is part of why getting a look at Lauletta is so important. He could be serviceable enough to act as the one year stop gap
Even if you re right and he s better than those two guys for next season, you missed the point. How many years do you think Eli has left as a starter?
The offensive line for the majority of the season has been downright dreadful. It has gotten better since Jamon Brown came along and since Solder started playing better, but it still needs a lot of work.
Eli was never a scrambling QB. So, yes, a more mobile QB would make things easier. But that's on the franchise for not having an offensive line for the last decade around their franchise QB, not on the QB.
Of course Eli could play better. And of course there are QBs in the league that would do better behind this line.
But I would say, with conviction, that this offensive line (which is 45% of the starters) is holding back this offense far, FAR more than Eli is.
Eli's "Aggressiveness" percentage (% of attempts into tight windows where defender is w/1 yard) is at 19%, 4th highest in the league. For comparison, Brady is at 15% and Brees is at 16.9%
Eli is among the top in the league in how fast he gets rid of the ball (2.61 seconds, Ben fastest at 2.56) while being T-2nd in the league in sacks.
For the talk that all Eli does is check down, his "completed air yardage" (yards ball travels in air on completions) is 5.2, higher than Ben, Stafford, and tied with Cam, and just behind Brady (5.4) and his intended air yardage (distance ball travels on all attempts) is tied with Brees at 7.2 (Luck and Brady are 7.3 and 7.4, respectively).
What all that tells me is that Eli's offensive line has been terrible such that he's constantly under duress when teams use anything more than 4 rushers, he gets rid of the ball quickly, is still sacked all the time, and by the time Eli has to get rid of the ball, our receivers haven't had much separation.
Those analytics dont count.
If he would agree to a MAJOR pay cut next year he could be a 2019 bridge to the next QB. But Eli has never taken one for the team ala Brady. Well have to pay him $23M or cut him and save $17.
Ill take the $17 and start looking to the future. Whether thats a 2019 1st round QB or a cheap stopgap ($5-8M) to bridge to a 2020 1st round QB, with the cap savings going to young FA talent or rolled over to 2020. Were not winning a championship with Eli in 2019 - might as well stock up the war chest.
Eli is a top third QB even at this age...and kudos to Paul Blake for researching the data above...
Eli is a top third QB even at this age...and kudos to Paul Blake for researching the data above...
He is not a top 10 QB In the league.
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In comment 14206587 dep026 said:
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Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost.
Such a weak, weak argument.
Perhaps the interception at the end of SB #49? Troll
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Eli suddenly forgot how to read defenses or prepare in studying film?
The offensive line for the majority of the season has been downright dreadful. It has gotten better since Jamon Brown came along and since Solder started playing better, but it still needs a lot of work.
Eli was never a scrambling QB. So, yes, a more mobile QB would make things easier. But that's on the franchise for not having an offensive line for the last decade around their franchise QB, not on the QB.
Of course Eli could play better. And of course there are QBs in the league that would do better behind this line.
But I would say, with conviction, that this offensive line (which is 45% of the starters) is holding back this offense far, FAR more than Eli is.
Eli's "Aggressiveness" percentage (% of attempts into tight windows where defender is w/1 yard) is at 19%, 4th highest in the league. For comparison, Brady is at 15% and Brees is at 16.9%
Eli is among the top in the league in how fast he gets rid of the ball (2.61 seconds, Ben fastest at 2.56) while being T-2nd in the league in sacks.
For the talk that all Eli does is check down, his "completed air yardage" (yards ball travels in air on completions) is 5.2, higher than Ben, Stafford, and tied with Cam, and just behind Brady (5.4) and his intended air yardage (distance ball travels on all attempts) is tied with Brees at 7.2 (Luck and Brady are 7.3 and 7.4, respectively).
What all that tells me is that Eli's offensive line has been terrible such that he's constantly under duress when teams use anything more than 4 rushers, he gets rid of the ball quickly, is still sacked all the time, and by the time Eli has to get rid of the ball, our receivers haven't had much separation.
Those analytics dont count.
They were cherry picked. What was left out was his intended Air Yards ranks 24th in the league. And whats the completion percentage on agressive throws?
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In comment 14206596 giants#1 said:
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In comment 14206587 dep026 said:
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Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. No INT in the history of the sport has cost a team the game. It didnt change the momentum of shit. The Eagles didnt even take the lead until the 4th quarter. Yes it did take 3 points off the board. But it was by no means the reason why we lost.
Such a weak, weak argument.
Perhaps the interception at the end of SB #49? Troll
Lol. I corrected my initial stance. Dupe. Troll. Get lost.