This isn’t meant to be a pro-Eli or anti-Eli thread. It’s just an honest question with regards to the state of the Giants offense 3/4 through the season.
I listened to The Ringer NFL podcast today where Mike Lombardi said the Giants would be competing for the NFC East if they had better QB play. I see tweets every week of plays where WR’s are running free and Eli is not seeing them.
On the other side, he can still make the throws (should have had a game winner in OT last week). He played nearly perfect games in Houston & against TB. We all know the status of the OL from earlier this year.
Where do you fall with regards to Eli’s impact on the overall success of the 2018 Giants?
The only "Elite" season I think Eli had was 2011. Ironically when he was asked if he thinks he's Elite.
I don't think Eli is holding the team back but he's no longer the spark that can push them forward. Honestly, that's fine with me. Barkley is the spark now. A solid run game and pass rush is truly what the team needs. The team is a run first offense now but Shurmur hasn't appeared to have accepted that yet.
Unless there is a great QB prospect that they can go after in the draft, I feel the team is better off drafting OL. Often times it's a choice between a good run blocking OLmen or a pass blocking one. If that's the case, go after a great run blocking one. I don't care if it's a passing league. The run sets up the pass far better then it does the other way around. That hasn't changed. After that, pass rushers are a big need.
Gurley, Elliot, and Barkley are the top 3 rushers right now. Cowboys and Rams are top 10 rushing offenses. Giants are a bottom 10 rushing offense. What's that tell you? Most of the teams leading their division having great rushers.
Again, the Giants' do better rushing the ball. They have improved (to include Eli) when the OL plays better. Eli's stats are still top 10 (barely) according to NFL.com with what is still a sub-standard OL. I'd say he's still at least middle of the league because like most say, stats can be misleading. However, he's still a solid starter in this league.
RUN THE DAMN BALL! Improve the OL in the off-season as the priority. Pass rushers being as a solid 1B in priority. Get a new QB ONLY if they are enamored with one.
The only "Elite" season I think Eli had was 2011. Ironically when he was asked if he thinks he's Elite.
I don't think Eli is holding the team back but he's no longer the spark that can push them forward. Honestly, that's fine with me. Barkley is the spark now. A solid run game and pass rush is truly what the team needs. The team is a run first offense now but Shurmur hasn't appeared to have accepted that yet.
Unless there is a great QB prospect that they can go after in the draft, I feel the team is better off drafting OL. Often times it's a choice between a good run blocking OLmen or a pass blocking one. If that's the case, go after a great run blocking one. I don't care if it's a passing league. The run sets up the pass far better then it does the other way around. That hasn't changed. After that, pass rushers are a big need.
Gurley, Elliot, and Barkley are the top 3 rushers right now. Cowboys and Rams are top 10 rushing offenses. Giants are a bottom 10 rushing offense. What's that tell you? Most of the teams leading their division having great rushers.
Again, the Giants' do better rushing the ball. They have improved (to include Eli) when the OL plays better. Eli's stats are still top 10 (barely) according to NFL.com with what is still a sub-standard OL. I'd say he's still at least middle of the league because like most say, stats can be misleading. However, he's still a solid starter in this league.
RUN THE DAMN BALL! Improve the OL in the off-season as the priority. Pass rushers being as a solid 1B in priority. Get a new QB ONLY if they are enamored with one.
Except run first offenses don’t win in today’s NFL.
Sure Eli has improved as the oline has played better but those weren’t elite QB performances that can carry a team. How much better can the rest of the roster be built up to make up for not having a QB who can carry you to a win.
It also has to be kept in context that those “better” performances were against a bad 49ers team, a Bucs defense that is worse than ours, a Philly defense missing everyone. He wasn’t great against the Bears.
When the Giants commit to the run game early and stay with it, Eli will be ok. Unless they go hurry up (seems to help his processing) you can't ask Eli to throw the ball 35 + times.
9 of the top 10 rush offenses have winning records.
The poor play by the Oline was holding the offense back more than Eli was and it was not even close. At least recently (since Brown) he has a better than even chance to make his reads.
I really enjoy the rollout passes they have installed for him.
No matter what, Eli is Eli. He is going to make headscratchers every game - always has, always will.
And as far as I am concerned, his arm strength does not look diminished. Perhaps his deep accuracy is a bit off, but I see nothing with his arm that would prevent them from winning. The pass to Shepard in OT that should have ended the game was spot on. SS said he lost it momentarily in the lights and adjusted a touch late.
9 of the top 10 rush offenses have winning records.
You omitted the same old first. You would consider the Saints, Rams and Chiefs as offense’s that are designed around running the ball first? They’re designed around their QBs and the passing game.
You win in the NFL now by passing and stopping the pass. Why did the Bears lose on Sunday? Because Chase Daniels couldn’t execute the easiest passes. Cohen and Howard averaged 4.4 yards per carry but that didn’t matter.
You need a quarterback who can carry an offense and Eli can no longer do that, otherwise you’ll be stuck in mediocrity.
He would save roughly $17M if cut for 2019 & if it is deemed he’s holding the team back, he will likely be cut.
If it is deemed he can still play, he may be signed to a 2-3 year deal.
Pretty significant I’d say.
And this is why people like me dig further in to support Eli. Shurmur is doing the same thing McAdoo did - blaming Eli for his own inepitude. No one was upset last year with benching Eli - they were upset because McAdoo in starting Smith instead of Webb was declaring that Eli was the reason the offense was being held back. This wasn't true then and it isn't true now.
As good as Brown has been, to suggest that the arrival of a waiver wire castoff was the reason that the OLine began to play well in week ten is ludicrous. The fact is, Shurmur just didn't have this OL ready until after the bye week. Which is particularly annoying since he himself was an OLineman and one of the reasons I thought he was hired. And his play calling and game management are disgraceful. To now insinuate that his despicable record is somehow Eli's fault is downright disgusting. Shurmur can't be fired soon enough as far as I'm concerned.
Statistically, Eli is a top ten quarterback this year in every category except TD passes - despite the putrid line play in the first nine games. Yes, there are better quarterbacks - but as Sy said, until someone offers a sensible alternative (and Lauletta is unequivocally NOT), then Eli should and must be our quarterback...now and until that alternative is on this team.
A Russel Wilson type QB in the offense would be very difficult to defend.
Goff is on pace to throw 552 passes, almost 5 more per game than he did last year, and on pace for 36 touchdowns. Todd Gurley was there before Goff, but when did the offense start to take off?
They wouldn’t be as successful running the ball out of mostly 11 personnel if the plays weren’t designed around the QB and the defense didn’t respect the QB.
Because Goff has been great passing the football, the rest of the offense goes. Goff is also 3rd on the team in carries. The offense is based off of RPOs and reads and the threat that Goff can run also helps make the offense go.
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As good as Brown has been, to suggest that the arrival of a waiver wire castoff was the reason that the OLine began to play well in week ten is ludicrous.
This is the reason your post is garbage. You think miraculously Shurmur got the line to improve out of nowhere after the bye and it just happened to coincide with Brown's arrival?
Eli was getting pressured up the middle. Omameh was worthless. Once Brown helped slow pressure up the middle Solder was able to route the outside rush wide as Eli was able to step up. Brown was the starter with the Rams until his suspension earlier this year. He would likely have continued to be the Rams starter had he not been suspended - there was no talk of him being benched prior.
Is Brown a Pro Bowl candidate - no. But he is probably close to a league average RG and that is a significant upgrade.
Big Ben has 26 TD's-3900 yards
Mahomes 41 TD's-3900 yards
Luck 32 TD's-3300 yards
Brady has 20 TD's-3300 yards
More importantly, pts per game:
Steelers:29
Chiefs:37
Colts:27
Pats:27
Giants:22
Listen, people can make stats say whatever they want and clearly some are using them to defend Eli. I get it, he's one of the best all-time Giants and he's been nothing but pure class so people let their emotions get involved. Reality though is that he's close to done and he's nowhere near a top 10 QB and he's not even in the upper half.
Stats didn't tell the whole story when he was in his prime and they certainly don't now either. It is quite convenient though how people are using certain stats to defend Eli when throughout his whole career most of us had to defend the stats against Eli.
And Gurley one of the best RB's in football...
So naturally that opens up the passing game...
But that OL is the key...
Giants OL better than beginning of season but not in same stratosphere...
I don’t think you can question if people watch football and then put Eli in the same sentence regarding play as Luck and Mahomes.
All those teams are in the playoffs or in the hunt. Luck has more than double the TDs Eli has all while doing it with a roster probably nearly as bad and after missing more than a year with a major shoulder injury.
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alrighty then...
Goff is on pace to throw 552 passes, almost 5 more per game than he did last year, and on pace for 36 touchdowns. Todd Gurley was there before Goff, but when did the offense start to take off?
When jeff Fisher was fired?
The rams would take Gurley over Goff everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Lets be realistic.
Mahomes 41 TD's-3900 yards
Luck 32 TD's-3300 yards
Brady has 20 TD's-3300 yardsi
More importantly, pts per game:
Steelers:29
Chiefs:37
Colts:27
Pats:27
Giants:22
Listen, people can make stats say whatever they want and clearly some are using them to defend Eli. I get it, he's one of the best all-time Giants and he's been nothing but pure class so people let their emotions get involved. Reality though is that he's close to done and he's nowhere near a top 10 QB and he's not even in the upper half.
Stats didn't tell the whole story when he was in his prime and they certainly don't now either. It is quite convenient though how people are using certain stats to defend Eli when throughout his whole career most of us had to defend the stats against Eli.
Uh you forgot Eli's numbers Keith:
Eli- 15 TD's 3300 yards...despite a catastrophic failure of an OL at beginning of the season...
And they are averaging 29.25 pts/game since the bye...
Notice a pattern here...???
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In comment 14206810 Sean said:
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As good as Brown has been, to suggest that the arrival of a waiver wire castoff was the reason that the OLine began to play well in week ten is ludicrous.
This is the reason your post is garbage. You think miraculously Shurmur got the line to improve out of nowhere after the bye and it just happened to coincide with Brown's arrival?
Eli was getting pressured up the middle. Omameh was worthless. Once Brown helped slow pressure up the middle Solder was able to route the outside rush wide as Eli was able to step up. Brown was the starter with the Rams until his suspension earlier this year. He would likely have continued to be the Rams starter had he not been suspended - there was no talk of him being benched prior.
Is Brown a Pro Bowl candidate - no. But he is probably close to a league average RG and that is a significant upgrade.
Let's be clear. This line still stinks and remains ill prepared by their vaunted Coach and former Olineman. They had good games against the Bucs and Niners - two of the worst defenses in the NFL. They had a good first half against the Eagles and a good second half against the Bears. The only reason this team beat the Bears was due to Barkley who, at two critical moments of the game, made something out of nothing created by this feeble Oline. Brown is extremely mediocre - yes he is better than Omameh but so is my five year old nephew...
Let's be clear. This line still stinks and remains ill prepared by their vaunted Coach and former Olineman. They had good games against the Bucs and Niners - two of the worst defenses in the NFL. They had a good first half against the Eagles and a good second half against the Bears. The only reason this team beat the Bears was due to Barkley who, at two critical moments of the game, made something out of nothing created by this feeble Oline. Brown is extremely mediocre - yes he is better than Omameh but so is my five year old nephew...
You are wrong on so many levels it is not worth arguing. Bucs defense sucks yes and they scored 38 points, 49ers are 12th? Bears 4th? 394 yards vs Eagles in the 1st half until play calling fell apart (they forgot that Barkley was there - think Payton forgets Brees is there?)
Only reason they won was because of Barkley? - well only reason New Orleans wins is because of Brees. Foolish statement.
You can have the best line coach in football, but if 2/5 of the line is horrendous you are doomed.(Omameh & Flowers)
Ok, if Brown is extremely mediocre, that makes him league average. Mediocre means average.
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Sometimes I wonder if some of you guys watch football games other than the Giants. All QBs throw ints, miss open receivers and make stupid decisions.. Big Ben has 14 Ints so far this year...Luck has 12...Mahomes 10....Eli has 8...Brady has 8. Put a better line in front of him and his play improves, just like any other QB. He is far from the reason why they are 4-8
I don’t think you can question if people watch football and then put Eli in the same sentence regarding play as Luck and Mahomes.
All those teams are in the playoffs or in the hunt. Luck has more than double the TDs Eli has all while doing it with a roster probably nearly as bad and after missing more than a year with a major shoulder injury.
Yeah and Luck has one of the best O-Lines in the league...
Spearheaded by one of my former students.
I totally understand why this is a tough choice for fans/the coaches/the front office. This kind of stuff makes sports fun and gives me something to flip back and forth on while I type these damn reports for work - thanks BBI!
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Big Ben has 26 TD's-3900 yards
Mahomes 41 TD's-3900 yards
Luck 32 TD's-3300 yards
Brady has 20 TD's-3300 yardsi
More importantly, pts per game:
Steelers:29
Chiefs:37
Colts:27
Pats:27
Giants:22
Listen, people can make stats say whatever they want and clearly some are using them to defend Eli. I get it, he's one of the best all-time Giants and he's been nothing but pure class so people let their emotions get involved. Reality though is that he's close to done and he's nowhere near a top 10 QB and he's not even in the upper half.
Stats didn't tell the whole story when he was in his prime and they certainly don't now either. It is quite convenient though how people are using certain stats to defend Eli when throughout his whole career most of us had to defend the stats against Eli.
Uh you forgot Eli's numbers Keith:
Eli- 15 TD's 3300 yards...despite a catastrophic failure of an OL at beginning of the season...
And they are averaging 29.25 pts/game since the bye...
Notice a pattern here...???
2 defensive TD's, they are averaging 25 ppg and yes, I do notice a difference.
Big Ben and Rivers same age- not "done"
Brees older than Manning- not "done"
Brady older than Manning- not "done"
So basically, Manning is the only one of this group that is "done" in their minds. The only differences between these guys and Manning is they have multiple targets to throw to and they aren't flat on their backs half the time trying to throw to them. Put these guys with the Shepards, Fowler and Ellison with Stonewall Pulley and Shaky Wheeler in front of them and you would be pronouncing them as "done" too.
I have seen Unitas, Jurgensen, Tarkenton, Staubach, Bradshaw, Griese, Marino all finish their careers. There are two reasons that qb's are "done"- they start missing games for injury or their arms completely go. It's one or the other but most of the time, it's injury. Manning has never missed a game for injury and he can still throw the ball. He's not "done"- not by a long shot.
It's always everyone elses fault. The OC. The OL. The WR's. The TE's. The running game. The HC. Bad luck. It's always everyone and everything but eli. People have stopped using logic and only use emotion with Eli. Again, I understand it, we all have a huge emotional attachment to Eli , but it's not reality. We've won 7 games in the past 2 seasons.
The Giants have the best skill position players of all those teams, yet we can't maximize that because of our QB.
It's always everyone elses fault. The OC. The OL. The WR's. The TE's. The running game. The HC. Bad luck. It's always everyone and everything but eli. People have stopped using logic and only use emotion with Eli. Again, I understand it, we all have a huge emotional attachment to Eli , but it's not reality. We've won 7 games in the past 2 seasons.
The Giants have the best skill position players of all those teams, yet we can't maximize that because of our QB.
The "emotion" part is 100% right back atya
I love how people say Eli has had a bad OLine for years is somehow an "excuse". Sorry its not an excuse. Its fuckign reality. With the addition of Brown the last few weeks, who is medicore at best, Eli's play has improved. Its not coincidence.
Eli doesnt need all-world people to block for him. How about we get to "average" first.
I first posted this:
More importantly, pts per game:
Steelers:29
Chiefs:37
Colts:27
Pats:27
Giants:22
In the above, defensive TD's are included for ALL teams.
You responded with:
Uh you forgot Eli's numbers Keith:
Eli- 15 TD's 3300 yards...despite a catastrophic failure of an OL at beginning of the season...
And they are averaging 29.25 pts/game since the bye...
Notice a pattern here...???
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you aren't talking team stats here, you are talking about the offensive success. To that, I responded with the offensive success minus the defensive TD's.
I love how people say Eli has had a bad OLine for years is somehow an "excuse". Sorry its not an excuse. Its fuckign reality. With the addition of Brown the last few weeks, who is medicore at best, Eli's play has improved. Its not coincidence.
Eli doesnt need all-world people to block for him. How about we get to "average" first.
In the Barkley threads people go out of their way to say how impacted he is by OL suckitude. Different agenda there though.
the offense, i mean yeah sure he can't move well and that holds back a lot of things- but the team stinks so who really cares.
him being here still at 37 with some prime skill level guys delays them having the chance to be great by like 2 more yrs every year he stays.
the offense, i mean yeah sure he can't move well and that holds back a lot of things- but the team stinks so who really cares.
him being here still at 37 with some prime skill level guys delays them having the chance to be great by like 2 more yrs every year he stays.
So you're assuming the guy who replaces him is going to have a better impact. Pretty bold statement.
And by the way.... OBJ and Barkley are having pretty good years. Lets not act like they arent getting theirs.
Is Eli a Top-5 QB right now? Of course not. But when the unit that comprises 5/11 of the starters is terrible, I think that is where the focus needs to be.
I have no idea where Eli's ceiling is behind a line as good as the Chiefs, or Colts, or Patriots, or Steelers, or Saints. But I do maintain that his performances are more a symptom of the offensive line holding the offense hostage, rather than the cause of the offense's problems.
Is Eli a Top-5 QB right now? Of course not. But when the unit that comprises 5/11 of the starters is terrible, I think that is where the focus needs to be.
I have no idea where Eli's ceiling is behind a line as good as the Chiefs, or Colts, or Patriots, or Steelers, or Saints. But I do maintain that his performances are more a symptom of the offensive line holding the offense hostage, rather than the cause of the offense's problems.
But that takes Eli out of the Crucible. And nobody wants that. So...maintain all you want, but you're wrong.
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of the giants.
the offense, i mean yeah sure he can't move well and that holds back a lot of things- but the team stinks so who really cares.
him being here still at 37 with some prime skill level guys delays them having the chance to be great by like 2 more yrs every year he stays.
So you're assuming the guy who replaces him is going to have a better impact. Pretty bold statement.
And by the way.... OBJ and Barkley are having pretty good years. Lets not act like they arent getting theirs.
He's going to be replaced eventually. They haven't won the past few years with him, wouldn't he be smart to maximize your opportunity finding the next guy?
He's going to be replaced eventually. They haven't won the past few years with him, wouldn't he be smart to maximize your opportunity finding the next guy?
Ok.... with who?
Big Ben and Rivers same age- not "done"
Brees older than Manning- not "done"
Brady older than Manning- not "done"
So basically, Manning is the only one of this group that is "done" in their minds. The only differences between these guys and Manning is they have multiple targets to throw to and they aren't flat on their backs half the time trying to throw to them. Put these guys with the Shepards, Fowler and Ellison with Stonewall Pulley and Shaky Wheeler in front of them and you would be pronouncing them as "done" too.
I have seen Unitas, Jurgensen, Tarkenton, Staubach, Bradshaw, Griese, Marino all finish their careers. There are two reasons that qb's are "done"- they start missing games for injury or their arms completely go. It's one or the other but most of the time, it's injury. Manning has never missed a game for injury and he can still throw the ball. He's not "done"- not by a long shot.
I don’t understand their stances either
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He's going to be replaced eventually. They haven't won the past few years with him, wouldn't he be smart to maximize your opportunity finding the next guy?
Ok.... with who?
There were players last year, there are players this year.
The line of thinking "we probably won't find someone better than Eli" is dumb and pointless.
We don't need someone someone better than prime Eli, we need someone better than current day Eli - and thats a little easier of a task.
Just because improvement is guaranteed doesn't mean there can't be improvement.
We think just replacing Eli with a new QB who is either a rookie or a FA is going to magically going to make the team better.
You do realize it can get worse, right? There have been many teams who have failed for years because they thought replacing the QB was the answer. The reality is you probabyl wont see his replacement until 2020. Especially if this QB rookie class is as weak as every one thinks it is.
What amazes me is that there are fans that are so adament of getting a new QB, that the rest of the roster should take a backseat to it. Just strange.
We think just replacing Eli with a new QB who is either a rookie or a FA is going to magically going to make the team better.
You do realize it can get worse, right? There have been many teams who have failed for years because they thought replacing the QB was the answer. The reality is you probabyl wont see his replacement until 2020. Especially if this QB rookie class is as weak as every one thinks it is.
What amazes me is that there are fans that are so adament of getting a new QB, that the rest of the roster should take a backseat to it. Just strange.
It can get worse, but how much worse? He's currently a bottom third QB in the league, who goes to the ground because he can't extend plays.
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thats the problem with the mindset.
We think just replacing Eli with a new QB who is either a rookie or a FA is going to magically going to make the team better.
You do realize it can get worse, right? There have been many teams who have failed for years because they thought replacing the QB was the answer. The reality is you probabyl wont see his replacement until 2020. Especially if this QB rookie class is as weak as every one thinks it is.
What amazes me is that there are fans that are so adament of getting a new QB, that the rest of the roster should take a backseat to it. Just strange.
It can get worse, but how much worse? He's currently a bottom third QB in the league, who goes to the ground because he can't extend plays.
Bottom 3rd? Ok....