This isn’t meant to be a pro-Eli or anti-Eli thread. It’s just an honest question with regards to the state of the Giants offense 3/4 through the season.
I listened to The Ringer NFL podcast today where Mike Lombardi said the Giants would be competing for the NFC East if they had better QB play. I see tweets every week of plays where WR’s are running free and Eli is not seeing them.
On the other side, he can still make the throws (should have had a game winner in OT last week). He played nearly perfect games in Houston & against TB. We all know the status of the OL from earlier this year.
Where do you fall with regards to Eli’s impact on the overall success of the 2018 Giants?
Big Ben
Mahomes
Matt Ryan
Jared Goff
Arod
Cousins
Rivers
Luck
Brady
Brees
Carr
Stafford
Watson
Cam
Keenum
Wentz
Wilson
Prescott
Mayfield
Bortles
Dalton
Trubisky
Flacco
Fitzpatrick/Winston
Alex Smith
Mariota
Darnold
Rosen
Tennehill
Garoppolo
Josh Allen
Big Ben
Mahomes
Matt Ryan
Jared Goff
Arod
Cousins
Rivers
Luck
Brady
Brees
Carr
Stafford
Watson
Cam
Keenum
Wentz
Wilson
Prescott
Mayfield
Bortles
Dalton
Trubisky
Flacco
Fitzpatrick/Winston
Alex Smith
Mariota
Darnold
Rosen
Tennehill
Garoppolo
Josh Allen
He is most definitely better than...
Darnold/Allen/Rosen/Mayfield - but they are rookies, so I wont say Id take Eli over them. But he is certainly better than them.
Flacco
TB QB situation
Mariotta
Garoppolo
Smith
Dak
Dalton
Bortles
Keenum
Cam
Carr
Tannehill
So thats 16 who I think Eli is easily better than. And there are a few more who I would take Eli over based off their past performances (I am looking at you Matt Ryan and Kirk Cousins specifically.)
No, we think not paying $23M (2019) for a game manager-level QB is an obvious way to help improve a roster with subpar talent.
And thats fine. I was a proponent for darnold last year. But are you going to invest so much in a first round pick who may/may not be the goods? Just to replace them?
or are you going to continue the rebuilding process by concentrating on the OL/DL?
No, we think not paying $23M (2019) for a game manager-level QB is an obvious way to help improve a roster with subpar talent.
Dont rebuild by FA. Do it by the draft.
Does it? Ok. I dont think Cam is nearly as good as people crack him out to be. But if you think he is better than Eli, thats fine.
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in order to find the next guy, they actually have to look for him. He's not going to fall out of the sky and into the Giants' lap. The mindset that the first year (or, gulp, more) of the next QB's career isn't going to be great and therefore we should just keep Eli forever and ever is weird. The Giants were 5-4 before Warner got benched and then Eli went 1-6 to close the season. Guess that means Warner shouldn't have been benched since Eli wasn't as good as Warner in 2004.
And thats fine. I was a proponent for darnold last year. But are you going to invest so much in a first round pick who may/may not be the goods? Just to replace them?
or are you going to continue the rebuilding process by concentrating on the OL/DL?
"May or may not be the goods." We can literally say this about every draft pick ever at the time of the draft. No one knows for sure how any player is going to turn out until they play for a few years. Under the 'may or may not be the goods' mindset, since we can say that about anyone, what you're pretty much saying is keep Eli until we know for a fact we have the next guy. There is no knowing for a fact, though.
And thats fine. But I just dont think we can say he is one of the worst QBs in the league. Are there Qbs you rather have? Sure. I can see why people may want Cam... I am not going to debate that. Matter of preference.
But when people put guys like Cousins, Ryan, and some others on a pedestal over Eli... I just cant agree with that. Even a guy like rivers. He is having a wonderful year. But I think he would struggle much more on this Giants team because much like Eli - he isnt that mobile. His OL has done pretty well for him this year.
using this theory.... there are 20 other teams that need QBs.
I must watching a different team.
Not just that will we win another SB with Eli, but on top of that, how many other teams have soon to be 38 year old QBs that have made the playoffs once in the past 6 seasons?
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Does anyone believe we are winning another SB with Eli Manning?
using this theory.... there are 20 other teams that need QBs.
I'm not sure who said it above - maybe Keith? - but we have some of the best weapons in the league. While the oline has not been the Dallas Wall of the '90s, a QB with more mobile skills could help offset some of that.
So, indeed, Eli is holding the offense back. Significantly. And beyond his physical limitations, some via age and some just via DNA, Eli just doesn't look to be consistently reliable in making the best decisions where to go with the ball. And that was one of his key attributes in his prime.
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but lets just talk about Cam. You think Eli in his current state is better than Cam newton??? Do you realize how insane that sounds?
Does it? Ok. I dont think Cam is nearly as good as people crack him out to be. But if you think he is better than Eli, thats fine.
It's such a load of crap to say Eli is the one thing holding this offense from being stellar.
The absolute fact is that nobody knows whether poor performances are because Eli is limiting the offense of the OLine is limiting Eli. Nobody would know that until Eli is behind a quality (decent, average, something more than what we have now) and his performance was measured over several games. (We do know that as people subjectively see OLine improvements (i.e.; since the bye week), his performance seems to have improved).
All we really have (on both sides) are the subjective opinions of individuals which they treat as fact around which they build a structure to achieve their pre-formed conclusion. There is no control. Honestly surprised anyone here passed a freshman science class.
"May or may not be the goods." We can literally say this about every draft pick ever at the time of the draft. No one knows for sure how any player is going to turn out until they play for a few years. Under the 'may or may not be the goods' mindset, since we can say that about anyone, what you're pretty much saying is keep Eli until we know for a fact we have the next guy. There is no knowing for a fact, though.
See IMO, we have a shit ton of holes. RT, C, Edge, MLB, FS, and QB. You go QB in round 1. No pick in the 3rd round. You are really putting all your eggs in a basket. Now if you're picking where the Giants are next spring, and you truly believe in the Qb who is available. Then, yes - you absolutely take him.
I just think there are too many fans are in the mindset to change the QB to change him. That is not how you rebuild.
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In comment 14207544 Keith said:
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but lets just talk about Cam. You think Eli in his current state is better than Cam newton??? Do you realize how insane that sounds?
Does it? Ok. I dont think Cam is nearly as good as people crack him out to be. But if you think he is better than Eli, thats fine.
It's such a load of crap to say Eli is the one thing holding this offense from being stellar.
The absolute fact is that nobody knows whether poor performances are because Eli is limiting the offense of the OLine is limiting Eli. Nobody would know that until Eli is behind a quality (decent, average, something more than what we have now) and his performance was measured over several games. (We do know that as people subjectively see OLine improvements (i.e.; since the bye week), his performance seems to have improved).
7 seasons without a playoff win.
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"May or may not be the goods." We can literally say this about every draft pick ever at the time of the draft. No one knows for sure how any player is going to turn out until they play for a few years. Under the 'may or may not be the goods' mindset, since we can say that about anyone, what you're pretty much saying is keep Eli until we know for a fact we have the next guy. There is no knowing for a fact, though.
See IMO, we have a shit ton of holes. RT, C, Edge, MLB, FS, and QB. You go QB in round 1. No pick in the 3rd round. You are really putting all your eggs in a basket. Now if you're picking where the Giants are next spring, and you truly believe in the Qb who is available. Then, yes - you absolutely take him.
I just think there are too many fans are in the mindset to change the QB to change him. That is not how you rebuild.
Obviously it has to be a QB they believe in. Not just some guy that they're lukewarm on.
That being said, you can fix some of the other holes you mentioned with your other picks. We don't have a 3rd round pick this upcoming draft. Okay. But we still have the rest of our picks. And we still have all of our picks in the all of the drafts after that; and since we all agree this isn't a one year fix, that works out just fine. Also, we can fix these other holes you mentioned one at a time, but until you find that next guy and he has some NFL experience under his belt, the team is still going to struggle without a QB.
I'm not sure who said it above - maybe Keith? - but we have some of the best weapons in the league. While the oline has not been the Dallas Wall of the '90s, a QB with more mobile skills could help offset some of that.
So, indeed, Eli is holding the offense back. Significantly. And beyond his physical limitations, some via age and some just via DNA, Eli just doesn't look to be consistently reliable in making the best decisions where to go with the ball. And that was one of his key attributes in his prime.
Pure nonsense again from you. Why cant we say with a better OL we would be winning the division? With a better defense we would be winning the division? Cause what if we had Dallas' OL or their LBs? Or what if we had Phillys/Washingtons DL?
We have a great RB and WR. That is not the best in the league. Lets face it.... EE has been a total bust this year. SS hasnt been that guy we all thought he would be.
And our Ol hasnt been the Dallas OL of the 90s? Really going there? Our OL has more holes than the the cheerleaders in Debbie Does Dallas.
And yet we are the highest scoring team in the division.... here's my argument. Maybe if we had defenses as good as the other teams in the league - we would be in first place. right?
Of course, there is no control. This is modern life we are talking about.
Obviously it has to be a QB they believe in. Not just some guy that they're lukewarm on.
That being said, you can fix some of the other holes you mentioned with your other picks. We don't have a 3rd round pick this upcoming draft. Okay. But we still have the rest of our picks. And we still have all of our picks in the all of the drafts after that; and since we all agree this isn't a one year fix, that works out just fine. Also, we can fix these other holes you mentioned one at a time, but until you find that next guy and he has some NFL experience under his belt, the team is still going to struggle without a QB.
And if the team believes in the QB in round 1. By all means they should take them. I'm saying it wont be the ned of the world if we get an edge rusher in the first, right tackle in the 2nd, and a center in the 4th. If those 3 picks pan out - we will be a better team not only for next year - but also for the future and whoeever replaces Eli.
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Obviously it has to be a QB they believe in. Not just some guy that they're lukewarm on.
That being said, you can fix some of the other holes you mentioned with your other picks. We don't have a 3rd round pick this upcoming draft. Okay. But we still have the rest of our picks. And we still have all of our picks in the all of the drafts after that; and since we all agree this isn't a one year fix, that works out just fine. Also, we can fix these other holes you mentioned one at a time, but until you find that next guy and he has some NFL experience under his belt, the team is still going to struggle without a QB.
And if the team believes in the QB in round 1. By all means they should take them. I'm saying it wont be the ned of the world if we get an edge rusher in the first, right tackle in the 2nd, and a center in the 4th. If those 3 picks pan out - we will be a better team not only for next year - but also for the future and whoeever replaces Eli.
And if we are much better team next year and our record reflects that, where are we getting that QB from since we won't have a top 5-10 draft pick?
And if we are much better team next year and our record reflects that, where are we getting that QB from since we won't have a top 5-10 draft pick?
Thats the million dollar question. A question that over half the league is figuring out. Look at what Detroit has. A very good QB who they cant win or get rid of. Look at Washington. They made a dumb trade/extension and now have nothing to show for it.
Finding a QB is pretty damn hard.
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And if we are much better team next year and our record reflects that, where are we getting that QB from since we won't have a top 5-10 draft pick?
Thats the million dollar question. A question that over half the league is figuring out. Look at what Detroit has. A very good QB who they cant win or get rid of. Look at Washington. They made a dumb trade/extension and now have nothing to show for it.
Finding a QB is pretty damn hard.
And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief.
All those holes you were referring to a couple of posts ago? Some of that money could go towards filling a hole or two next year..
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I just think there are too many fans are in the mindset to change the QB to change him. That is not how you rebuild.
No one wants to change him just to change him. He is an overpaid, aging and declining QB. The team's record since the end of 2011 is well below .500. You don't know if a QB is going to able play in the NFL until he gets experience(Eli has said this). It might take us a few QBs to get it right. We don't have time to build a good enough team to win with Eli with his limited abilities(We would have to be dominant in many other areas) Let's see what Kyle has for the rest of year. Then next year, cut Eli and draft/trade sign another QB, have a preseason battle and move on. Start the process now.
Eli Manning is not the main reason we have stunk for years. You can say he is in decline, but there are many more factors that have led to our downfall.
It might take a few QBs to get it right? Wait, what? That makes no sense. You have to get it right and just putting people in there doesnt make sense nor should it be done.
And why does building a team have to be for Eli? Wouldnt getting a better OL do wonders for Barkley? I mean, if he is producing with this shit OL - imagine what he would do with just an average one or believe it or not - a GOOD OL?
And you want to play a player just to play him even if he isnt ready? Wow.
And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief.
All those holes you were referring to a couple of posts ago? Some of that money could go towards filling a hole or two next year..
Didnt we spend over 200 million on a defense that collapsed after just one year? Didnt we just sign a LT to the most expensive contract in lineman history for average results? Didnt we just give over 5 million a year to a guy who was cut midyear? Eli's contract hasnt restricted us from getting some very expensive players.
Again, you dont rebuild through FA. You rebuild from the draft.
Pure nonsense again from you. Why cant we say with a better OL we would be winning the division? With a better defense we would be winning the division? Cause what if we had Dallas' OL or their LBs? Or what if we had Phillys/Washingtons DL?
We have a great RB and WR. That is not the best in the league. Lets face it.... EE has been a total bust this year. SS hasnt been that guy we all thought he would be.
And our Ol hasnt been the Dallas OL of the 90s? Really going there? Our OL has more holes than the the cheerleaders in Debbie Does Dallas.
And yet we are the highest scoring team in the division.... here's my argument. Maybe if we had defenses as good as the other teams in the league - we would be in first place. right?
Well, we knew coming into the season the defense wasn't a strength. So the expectation was, at least how I was interpreting the off-season, that we'd be competitive by being a prolific offense. That's why we invested so many cap dollars into the offense during the off-season.
Rebuilt oline (free agency & draft), re-invested in OBJ, high draft pick in RB, hired offensive guru.
Right?
The question was if Eli was holding the offense back. If you think Eli has been in prime form was his decision making, then I underestimated your understanding of the game.
I agree this 100%. And that's why I think the Giants need to release Eli in February no matter what. Eli's past and achievements are clouding everyone's judgement, judgement about his on-the-field-performance, what is his true market price, how the elite NCAA QBs project into the NFL and what kind of team to build. This has to stop.
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And that is why going with a 38 year old QB who has a $23 million cap hit, along with a subpar OLine next year is complete and utter insanity and stupid beyond belief.
All those holes you were referring to a couple of posts ago? Some of that money could go towards filling a hole or two next year..
Didnt we spend over 200 million on a defense that collapsed after just one year? Didnt we just sign a LT to the most expensive contract in lineman history for average results? Didnt we just give over 5 million a year to a guy who was cut midyear? Eli's contract hasnt restricted us from getting some very expensive players.
Again, you dont rebuild through FA. You rebuild from the draft.
I didn't say you rebuild towards FA. I said you can fill a hole or two in FA and the draft is obviously the driving force in the rebuild.
But that doesn't mean the team shouldn't use money available to them to try to fill a hole or two. It's all about signing the right guys. Look at Antonio Piece, Kareem McKenzie, and Plax all signed in 2005 and all were huge factors in winning SB 42.
Haha. Reading BBI the last year or so has left me speculating about certain posters experiencing a sort of midlife-crisis-by-proxy. You wonder whether there is some sort of neurotic struggle going on.
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of the giants.
the offense, i mean yeah sure he can't move well and that holds back a lot of things- but the team stinks so who really cares.
him being here still at 37 with some prime skill level guys delays them having the chance to be great by like 2 more yrs every year he stays.
So you're assuming the guy who replaces him is going to have a better impact. Pretty bold statement.
And by the way.... OBJ and Barkley are having pretty good years. Lets not act like they arent getting theirs.
im assuming its a waste of time holding out hope that a immobile 37yr old will find a fountain of youth, and because of that the organization ins unable to move on.
that is all--- not assuming anything-- thus i said judging if he is holding back the offense... its hard to say, but the organization, yes its obvious they cant move on until he is gone
Well, we knew coming into the season the defense wasn't a strength. So the expectation was, at least how I was interpreting the off-season, that we'd be competitive by being a prolific offense. That's why we invested so many cap dollars into the offense during the off-season.
Rebuilt oline (free agency & draft), re-invested in OBJ, high draft pick in RB, hired offensive guru.
Right?
The question was if Eli was holding the offense back. If you think Eli has been in prime form was his decision making, then I underestimated your understanding of the game.
We didnt think the defense was going to be a strength? So all of the offseason praise Vernon got? Trading for Ogletree? Snacks? Collins? Jackrabbit? Tomlinson in his 2nd year? I think many people had high hopes for the defense...
And the investments in OL failed. Shurmur hasnt been that great. And EE/SS have failed to get better. Barkley has been great. OBJ has been good. Hernandez has been solid. The rest of the players havent. I dont see how this is arguable.
Then whats false?
Oh yeah. I am sorry I forgot it is Eli's fault that Engram has done next to nothing this year. I am sorry I forgot that SS dropped key passes against Jax and Chicago with the game on the line. And the QB cant get them the ball? Odell is on pace for a career high in receptions.
And we pumped a lot of money on the defense. High draft picks and high investments dollar wise on these players. You expected them to play poorly? Ok.
What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster.
It might get worse replacing him but it’s not likely to get better with him.
Here’s what will happen:
Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.
What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster.
It might get worse replacing him but it’s not likely to get better with him.
Here’s what will happen:
Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.
What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable?
What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?
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He’s not the same QB. He’s likely not getting any better and isn’t good enough to carry this team?
What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster.
It might get worse replacing him but it’s not likely to get better with him.
Here’s what will happen:
Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.
What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable?
What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?
You literally can't worry about 'what if?' You could play the what if game for the next 10 years. So, keep Eli for the next decade?
People really, really overthink this. I've never seen anything like this before ever.
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He’s not the same QB. He’s likely not getting any better and isn’t good enough to carry this team?
What if he is completely unplayable next year? Another wasted year without a successor on the roster.
It might get worse replacing him but it’s not likely to get better with him.
Here’s what will happen:
Well keep Eli and improve the oline. Continue to struggle. And Shurmur will get the blame for holding Eli back.
What if we improve the OL and he plays better? What if we improve the OL and Barkley becomes virtually unstoppable?
What if we draft the next Lockear, Mariota, or Blaine Gabbert?
What if we draft the next Luck or Rodgers?
What if having an average QB improves the offense enough to become a contender?
For years, the roster has been barren with a few highlight-grabbing skill players but on a foundation of crap.
1. The Giants had historic levels of games lost due to injuries over a several year period of time
Here is where the Giants ranked in Football Outsiders's Adjusted Games Lost to Injury* (1 is least games lost, 32 is most games lost)
2017: 25
2016: 7
2015: 32
2014: 32
2013: 32
2012: 25
2011: 26
2010: 22
2008-2010 average: 14
It is astounding. Think of all the Giants players with potential/production whose careers were completely cut short and needed to be replaced? Steve Smith, Terrell Thomas, Kenny Phillips, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Ahmad Bradshaw, and David Wilson. Throw in Chad Jones's car accident and the two Sintim ACL tears before the start of his third season
Teams have limited draft/FA capital and when it has to be used to constantly replace high-producing guys, other parts of the team are going to suffer.
Look at how many "skill position" players the Giants thought they were set with had their careers shortened dramatically. That caused Reese/Ross to keep trying to refill those skill positions with key draft picks and there was a residual effect.
2. Jerry Reese and Mark Ross ignored signs that the offensive line from pre 2010 was deteriorating, and instead of putting a lot of draft resources into making sure it was strong enough to protect their franchise non-running QB, they invested in athletes whose measurables wowed them.
In Reese's (and Ross's) entire tenure, 12 drafts, the Giants took 11 Offensive linemen compared with 9 RBs, 9 WRs, and 5 receiving TEs.
By comparison, the Patriots took 21 offensive linemen and 5 RBs in that span.
SS is so underrated. He's not being used the right way because we barely get him the ball. Every WR has drops, can we acknowledge that? Or is it ok only to acknowledge that every QB has INT's so we shouldn't hold Eli accountable?
Engram has been disappointing, but again, we are not using him to the best of his abilities. He's a guy that will do damage in space, but we just can't get him the ball. Our QB looks for a read and then starts hearing footsteps, makes it kind of hard. Also makes it hard for receivers when they don't get consistent looks.
So on one hand you say OBJ is set for some career highs, but on the other hand he's only been good. Can you explain?
You literally can't worry about 'what if?' You could play the what if game for the next 10 years. So, keep Eli for the next decade?
People really, really overthink this. I've never seen anything like this before ever.
My what "ifs" were in response to the prior odd stance.
This isnt hard. You replace Eli when you find the right person to do so. If its through the draft, FA, trade, or whatever. You jsut dont replace him to replace him though. That makes absolutely no sense.
So if it means you replace him in 2020, then thats when it will be. We arent a QB away from contending. So if there is an edge rusher or OL that grade out higher than a QB, you take them.
You're right. I've never seen anything like this before either.
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I also see decline in Brady, Big Ben, Rivers, etc. The only one of their era I don't see in decline is Brees. However, he is still a top half of the league QB. As the OL improves, so does Eli. I don't think that's a coincidence.
The only "Elite" season I think Eli had was 2011. Ironically when he was asked if he thinks he's Elite.
I don't think Eli is holding the team back but he's no longer the spark that can push them forward. Honestly, that's fine with me. Barkley is the spark now. A solid run game and pass rush is truly what the team needs. The team is a run first offense now but Shurmur hasn't appeared to have accepted that yet.
Unless there is a great QB prospect that they can go after in the draft, I feel the team is better off drafting OL. Often times it's a choice between a good run blocking OLmen or a pass blocking one. If that's the case, go after a great run blocking one. I don't care if it's a passing league. The run sets up the pass far better then it does the other way around. That hasn't changed. After that, pass rushers are a big need.
Gurley, Elliot, and Barkley are the top 3 rushers right now. Cowboys and Rams are top 10 rushing offenses. Giants are a bottom 10 rushing offense. What's that tell you? Most of the teams leading their division having great rushers.
Again, the Giants' do better rushing the ball. They have improved (to include Eli) when the OL plays better. Eli's stats are still top 10 (barely) according to NFL.com with what is still a sub-standard OL. I'd say he's still at least middle of the league because like most say, stats can be misleading. However, he's still a solid starter in this league.
RUN THE DAMN BALL! Improve the OL in the off-season as the priority. Pass rushers being as a solid 1B in priority. Get a new QB ONLY if they are enamored with one.
Except run first offenses don’t win in today’s NFL.
Sure Eli has improved as the oline has played better but those weren’t elite QB performances that can carry a team. How much better can the rest of the roster be built up to make up for not having a QB who can carry you to a win.
It also has to be kept in context that those “better” performances were against a bad 49ers team, a Bucs defense that is worse than ours, a Philly defense missing everyone. He wasn’t great against the Bears.
A little late getting back to you but ....
The league passes the ball more than it runs the ball, I'm not disputing this. I'm saying you still need to run the ball. You still need to effectively run the ball to setup the pass and that works far more effectively than the other way around.
6 of the 8 division leaders are top 10 in the league for rushing vs passing plays; Patriots, Texans, Cowboys, Bears, Saints, and Rams. Giants, they are in the bottom 5.
Eli had nearly a perfect game against the Bucs and regardless of how bad they are, his performance was better than every other QB that faced them. The Eagles pass rush was still good and that's what you look at when determining OL play. I thought Eli did his job well during the Bears game.