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reese's drafting of nassib and webb caused giant downfall

giants180 : 12/5/2018 5:42 pm
so a lot of people will think i'm crazy about this, but let me explain. in 2013, they drafted ryan nassib. i know i thought it was a surprise they drafted him, but they did. that season eli had his worst season when he threw 27 ints to 18tds.

after the season they hired ben mcadoo. i really didn't have a problem with hiring him because they had to try something to help out the offense. the offense improved the next two years, but i believe mcadoo was hired to try and get nassib in the lineup. jerry reese probably figured eli would be bad again, and mcadoo could convince coughlin to start nassib over eli. the big problem was that the offense actually improved with eli at qb and odell at wr while the defense was atrocious.

the two losing seasons in 14 and 15 led them to make a change thinking mcadoo would eventually replace eli, but they started to win because reese spent a bunch of money to fix the defense in an effort to save his job. the spending worked for a season, but the winning didn't last long.

by the time 2017 season rolled around reese felt comfortable drafting another mid round qb in davis webb, and then the eli clock began again bc they figured they built a good team that a young qb could take over. as the season went on the giants sucked and mcadoo decided to bench eli and put geno in, and all hell broke loose.

the point i'm trying to make is that if reese just focused on building a team and not on replacing eli this team would've continued to be in the playoff mix. by now they might have made the playoffs a couple times and had the young qb who could smoothly replace eli. instead reese reached trying to replace eli and failed. also keep in mind the giants were .500 or better every year up until the giants drafted nassib. maybe they weren't a 14-2 team, but they weren't nearly as chaotic as they are now. i really don't think that's a coincidence.

the last thing i want to say is that i want the giants to find the qb of the future, but until we know for sure what the plan is (maybe it could be lauletta) just stick with eli.

A 3rd and 4th round pick not working out  
Jay on the Island : 12/5/2018 5:45 pm : link
Is far from the reasons why this team has fallen on hard times. Nassib was seen as a great value pick at the time. Prior to the draft there were talks of him going in the 1st round. He was worth the risk IMO.
wasn't there the same  
japanhead : 12/5/2018 5:49 pm : link
bullshit talk of lauletta being a first round talent in this draft, too? nassib was not good, and we are lucky he never had to play. we will see about lauletta. at least its a new regime that drafted him.
LOL, I'll play!  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/5/2018 5:50 pm : link
Yesss!

If Reese had only continued to add studs like Sinorice Moss, James Brewer, Bryan Kehl, Jerrel Jernigan, Travis Beckum and the likes instead of focusing on a backup for Eli, this franchise would have rocked!!!
Like Jay said  
BigBlueHens : 12/5/2018 5:51 pm : link
3rd and 4th round picks for back-up quarterbacks are not too much of a downfall.

If you identify his downfall, see Flowers, Pugh, Apple, Richburg, Wilson, Randle, etc...
name the mid round OL  
V.I.G. : 12/5/2018 5:55 pm : link
that we passed on that would have made the difference. what caused the downfall was missing on almost every pick those years.
RE: wasn't there the same  
Jay on the Island : 12/5/2018 5:55 pm : link
In comment 14206953 japanhead said:
Quote:
bullshit talk of lauletta being a first round talent in this draft, too? nassib was not good, and we are lucky he never had to play. we will see about lauletta. at least its a new regime that drafted him.

No there was talk of him possibly going to NE in round 2. Which was clearly a media fabrication because Belichick passed on him in rounds 1, 2, 3, and 4.
No it didn't.  
Mike from Ohio : 12/5/2018 5:57 pm : link
But thanks?
RE: so a lot of people will think i'm crazy about this  
Trainmaster : 12/5/2018 5:57 pm : link
Yup
RE: name the mid round OL  
Jay on the Island : 12/5/2018 5:58 pm : link
In comment 14206959 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
that we passed on that would have made the difference. what caused the downfall was missing on almost every pick those years.

Nearly everyone who hated the Nassib pick wanted either S Shamarko Thomas or LB Khaseem Greene. Neither played worked out either.
..  
ATL_Giants : 12/5/2018 5:58 pm : link
I think it was gonorrhea..  
Ryan : 12/5/2018 6:03 pm : link
..
Umm no and yes  
Dave on the UWS : 12/5/2018 6:10 pm : link
I think youíre crazy. Stop looking for conspiracies. John Mara loves Eli. Heís not going anywhere until his contract is up. ( then we will see).
What a crock of shit theory!  
FJ : 12/5/2018 6:21 pm : link
Quote:
...i believe mcadoo was hired to try and get nassib in the lineup. jerry reese probably figured eli would be bad again, and mcadoo could convince coughlin to start nassib over eli...

Nobody was trying to get Eli out of the lineup. McAdoo was hired to help improve the offense, which he did initially. Nassib and Webb were drafted solely to take a chance in the mid rounds on possibly finding a starting caliber QB who could either fill in for Eli if necessary, potentially succeed Eli, or become a tradeable asset with value. That's it. The misses on many, many other draft picks, and especially the inability to renew our offensive line with quality starters are what caused the Giants' downfall.
RE: name the mid round OL  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/5/2018 6:23 pm : link
In comment 14206959 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
that we passed on that would have made the difference. what caused the downfall was missing on almost every pick those years.


They don't line up draft year wise, but Reese missed on a gang of mid round OL who worked out well for the cubs that drafted them - Clint Boling x Georgia comes to mind, as do Rick Wagner and Rob Havenstein, both of Wisconsin. Boling is still with the team that drafted him in the 3rd round. Wagner has a huge FA contract after proving his worth and was a 5th round pick by the Ravens IIRC. Havenstein was a late 2nd round pick, but he's been better than Flowers from day 1.

Reese/Ross was a horrid draft day combo both for talent ID and for draft philosophy...

To be a consistently good football team  
superspynyg : 12/5/2018 6:23 pm : link
You must hit on your first and second rounders. Then you get lucky with a few late round picks. Reese did not do that. He and Marc Ross missed on most of theirs.

Exceptions are
JPP
OBJ
Sheppard (maybe)
RE: Like Jay said  
Tuckrule : 12/5/2018 6:29 pm : link
In comment 14206955 BigBlueHens said:
Quote:
3rd and 4th round picks for back-up quarterbacks are not too much of a downfall.

If you identify his downfall, see Flowers, Pugh, Apple, Richburg, Wilson, Randle, etc...


Iíll nitpick and remove Wilson since that was something nobody could predict. Before the injury he looked like a poor mans saquon.
I'll say it..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/5/2018 6:34 pm : link
until the cows come home, but the Nassib pick certainly panned out. The guy was a cost-controlled backup who was never needed to participate. And let's face it - if you had a seasoned backup, he'd cost 3X the cost and still wouldn't have contributed.

why do people continually completely miss this really evident point?
Pugh, Flowers, Apple  
joeinpa : 12/5/2018 6:40 pm : link
Richburg, theJPP of tight ends.

Etc. etc. etc. Nassib and Webb, small part of his failure. Belichick is always drafting quarterbacks,

Eli has been given more chances to succeed than any other Giants quarterback. Giants record under his watch since 11 is lousy.

Reese is at fault, Ross, Mara, McAdoo, Coughlin and yes even Eli, share in the blame.
I  
AcidTest : 12/5/2018 6:45 pm : link
supported the Nassib pick. He was the "hot" day three QB that year. There were rumors he might go in the first round. The Steelers wanted him, and had to settle for Landry Jones. We also hadn't yet signed Eli to his last contract IIRC, and he was in his mid 30s.

I also supported the Webb pick because of his arm, size, and insane work ethic. Another reason was I didn't think that the Giants would be so bad last year that they would be in a position to draft Rosen, Allen, Mayfield, or Darnold in 2018. There were also rumors suggesting Webb might be a first round pick.

I thought they were both mid round picks. My view now is that it is probably a mistake in most cases to take a QB after round two. A few notable exceptions notwithstanding, most of the franchise QBs are taken in the first or second round.

Nassib and Webb didn't cause the Giants' downfall. That happened because Reese didn't draft or sign enough good OL. He also kept drafting athletes (Austin, Robinson, Petrus, Barden, etc.) with great measurables who couldn't play.
Coughlin Was Still HC  
clatterbuck : 12/5/2018 7:01 pm : link
when McAdoo was hired. Nassib might have been considered a potentional successor but Coughlin likely had no intention of a preemptive switch. And, yes, there was a lot of chatter about Nassib going in the first round, and some surprise when Bills and Doug Morrone drafted E.J. Manuel ahead of him.
He also kept drafting athletes (Austin, Robinson, Petrus, Barden, etc.  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/5/2018 7:01 pm : link
Who in heck was Robinson?

Forgot all about King Ramses, and was I ever all in on that dude. He compiled ridiculous stats in college, for San Luis Obispo right?

That's a list of guys who didn't LIKE to play football.
Reese (and co) could have had double the picks rounds 3-7  
widmerseyebrow : 12/5/2018 7:54 pm : link
All those years and might not have drafted a quality starting lineman. The problem was that front office couldn't identify good lineman no matter where they were picked or in FA.
RE: He also kept drafting athletes (Austin, Robinson, Petrus, Barden, etc.  
Fred-in-Florida : 12/5/2018 7:55 pm : link
In comment 14207005 BlueLou'sBack said:
[quote] Who in heck was Robinson?

Forgot all about King Ramses, and was I ever all in on that dude. He compiled ridiculous stats in college, for San Luis Obispo right?

That's a list of guys who didn't LIKE to play football. [/quot

The JPP of tight ends!!
Nassib was a poor pick  
widmerseyebrow : 12/5/2018 8:02 pm : link
Mainly because an equivalent player could have been picked in a later round without trading up.

Nassib was a quarterback who never looked like he could be competent for a full game and was effectively out of the NFL after his rookie contract was up. Literally anyone off the street could draft a quarterback with that kind of career, let alone a professional front office.
RE: wasn't there the same  
mrvax : 12/5/2018 8:21 pm : link
In comment 14206953 japanhead said:
Quote:
bullshit talk of lauletta being a first round talent in this draft, too? nassib was not good, and we are lucky he never had to play. we will see about lauletta. at least its a new regime that drafted him.


No. None I ever saw. But Dave Te had him as a 2nd rounder. I think Lauletta is better than Nassib or Webb. But I'm not a scout.
Of all the blown picks,  
DonQuixote : 12/5/2018 8:24 pm : link
those two led to the downfall?

Iíd take a mulligan on The Flowers and Apple picks before I care about the mid round QBs
Didnít ready past thread title, but 100% wrong  
mfsd : 12/5/2018 8:56 pm : link
Trying to hang on to the Snee/Diehl/Seubert line too long, then whiffing on Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, and every 3 rd round pick for a decade led to downfall.
RE: I'll say it..  
Hsilwek92 : 12/5/2018 9:05 pm : link
In comment 14206990 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
until the cows come home, but the Nassib pick certainly panned out. The guy was a cost-controlled backup who was never needed to participate. And let's face it - if you had a seasoned backup, he'd cost 3X the cost and still wouldn't have contributed.

why do people continually completely miss this really evident point?


Because said point doesnít leave anyone to blame and is based on logic.
You are right. You are crazy!  
Ivan15 : 12/5/2018 9:09 pm : link
Two draft picks, drafted 4 years apart, did not cause the downfall of the Giants.

Nassib filled a role that justified the round he was picked in. We still don't know if Webb was a good or bad pick. We only have the judgment of a QB whisperer who evaluated Webb in one preseason.
Teams draft developmental QBs in the mid rounds all the time  
Deejboy : 12/5/2018 9:15 pm : link
Almost all of them don't work out. I have no idea how you got drafting Nassib and Webb caused the Giants downfal.
I forgot to point out the reason teams draft mid round QBs  
Deejboy : 12/5/2018 9:21 pm : link
Because decent backup veteran QBs cost more money than backups at other positions. So if you can draft a young QB and have him be your backup it saves money. If he can develop into your starter or be traded then you hit the jackpot.
Didn't Reese say  
Gman11 : 12/5/2018 9:28 pm : link
something like they were glad Nassib was available and now they hope he never has to play?

If I remember that correctly then that blows your whole conspiracy out of the water from the get-go.
RE: Nassib was a poor pick  
Deejboy : 12/5/2018 9:33 pm : link
In comment 14207046 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
Mainly because an equivalent player could have been picked in a later round without trading up.

Nassib was a quarterback who never looked like he could be competent for a full game and was effectively out of the NFL after his rookie contract was up. Literally anyone off the street could draft a quarterback with that kind of career, let alone a professional front office.

This is what you call 20/20 hindsight folks. Russ Lande who is a respected scout and former draft guru for the Sporting News had Nassib as his top QB for 2014 and ranked him higher than Teddy Bridgewater, Johnny Manziel, Blake Bortles, Derek Carr, and Jimmy Garappolo. It wasn't like they drafted some bum off the street. He didn't develop. It happens all the time to QBs.
The Patriots draft QBs all the time, some bad ones, too...  
SHO'NUFF : 12/5/2018 10:06 pm : link
I'm still waiting for their downfall.
How does this stupid thread  
Dodge : 12/5/2018 10:32 pm : link
have so many replies. The fuck is wrong with you people.
John Mara/ Reese/ Ross/ Chris Mara  
Paulie Walnuts : 12/5/2018 10:42 pm : link
screwed this team for a decade
RE: How does this stupid thread  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/5/2018 10:53 pm : link
In comment 14207130 Dodge said:
Quote:
have so many replies. The fuck is wrong with you people.


Another good question is this:

Does anyone beside me read the OP as tongue in cheek?

Back in the day a thread like this usually earned the "r u serious" moniker
RE: RE: Nassib was a poor pick  
widmerseyebrow : 12/6/2018 12:07 am : link
In comment 14207107 Deejboy said:
Quote:
In comment 14207046 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


Mainly because an equivalent player could have been picked in a later round without trading up.

Nassib was a quarterback who never looked like he could be competent for a full game and was effectively out of the NFL after his rookie contract was up. Literally anyone off the street could draft a quarterback with that kind of career, let alone a professional front office.


This is what you call 20/20 hindsight folks. Russ Lande who is a respected scout and former draft guru for the Sporting News had Nassib as his top QB for 2014 and ranked him higher than Teddy Bridgewater, Johnny Manziel, Blake Bortles, Derek Carr, and Jimmy Garappolo. It wasn't like they drafted some bum off the street. He didn't develop. It happens all the time to QBs.


Yes, it is also 20/20 hindsight that Reese's front office was poor at drafting for many years. But then again I'm not paid to project like they were. This is case in point: a guy they traded up to get had nearly the worst possible career outcome for a draft pick (aside from being cut before his rookie contract was up). He's still unemployed.

I remember the spin when he was drafted: "practically a first (or second) rounder!" Except no one else actually thought so in a quarterback starved league. Wasting multiple picks on a guy who will be out of the league is a one of many examples why the front office was a failure.
This..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/6/2018 4:10 am : link
really shouldn't be a factor in determining if Nassib was a good pick:

Quote:
Nassib was a poor pick
widmerseyebrow : 12/5/2018 8:02 pm : link : reply
Mainly because an equivalent player could have been picked in a later round without trading up.


He was a 4th rounder that played out his rookie contract. Count how many of those players exist in the NFL, let alone in Reese's tenure.

Not everything is about the performance of the player. It's like complaining that DeOssie was a waste of a pick at the LB position.
A few middle-to-late draft picks used over the years  
Jimmy Googs : 12/6/2018 5:07 am : link
to pick two bad backup QBs caused the Giant's fall from grace?

no...
RE: This..  
widmerseyebrow : 12/6/2018 5:35 am : link
In comment 14207170 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
really shouldn't be a factor in determining if Nassib was a good pick:



Quote:


Nassib was a poor pick
widmerseyebrow : 12/5/2018 8:02 pm : link : reply
Mainly because an equivalent player could have been picked in a later round without trading up.



He was a 4th rounder that played out his rookie contract. Count how many of those players exist in the NFL, let alone in Reese's tenure.

Not everything is about the performance of the player. It's like complaining that DeOssie was a waste of a pick at the LB position.


We'll just have to disagree.

First off, I'm not sure how DeOssie is a comp. He's played a vital position well beyond his rookie contract. Actually played. If we for some reason cut him earlier in his career he would have made another team as a long snapper and gunner. Tremendous pick.

When you trade multiple assets to draft one player (Nassib), that player shouldn't be out of the NFL after 3 years or you're not doing a good job. I'm not saying he needed to develop into a starter. I'm saying I had zero confidence that he would be able to do his other job (play competently if Eli went down) had it come to that. Apparently no one else did either.

If all a backup quarteback needs to do is be cheap and hold a clipboard as you say (and not actually be able to play in an emergency), then you can throw a dart in round 5-7. Couldn't have done much worse.
Those wouldnít be the ones I would cite  
jeff57 : 12/6/2018 5:44 am : link
Passing on Bobby Wagner, Todd Gurley, Ryan Ramcyzk and Taylor Decker for David Wilson, Flowers, Engram and Apple had a lot more to do with it. Not to mention his dreadful mid round picks.
Think about this. If Reese was still GM, Webb, Flowers and Apple would  
Ivan15 : 12/6/2018 7:53 am : link
still be on the roster because he couldnít give up on high draft picks until their rookie contracts ended.
Nassib was never drafted to replace a 32 year-old Eli, 2 years  
Big Blue '56 : 12/6/2018 9:14 am : link
removed from a SB win and MVP. He was considered, iirc, a decent steal given where he was drafted. TC got pretty good returns on his backups (during their solid preseason performances), Matthews and Rob Johnson in trades while at Jax. I would have not taken a QB at that time, but was ok with me.

Reese missed too often..  
EricJ : 12/6/2018 9:57 am : link
at all levels of his talent evaluation and selection. You cannot hang your hat on a handful of great picks like OBJ. All of the misses especially when it comes to players who add depth to the team are really what killed us.

We tend to focus too much on what he did with our #1 and #2 picks. Those arguments are valid. My problem is with his inability to identify talent at ALL levels. So many poor decisions that go unnoticed because those decisions were not high profile ones.

Then, we get to a game two years later and a guy who is filling in for our injured starter is a complete fail.

From that perspective, I think DG has done a much better job. We see some role players that he brought in starting to contribute. I started a thread on Fowler and I know that I mentioned these guys that are playing for us now in the secondary. Picking up our new right guard.

I know DG has taken some heat for a couple of moves like Solder but for the most part I am happy with the job he is doing. Especially when you compare him to Reese.
RE: Nassib was never drafted to replace a 32 year-old Eli, 2 years  
ron mexico : 12/6/2018 10:07 am : link
In comment 14207240 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
removed from a SB win and MVP. He was considered, iirc, a decent steal given where he was drafted. TC got pretty good returns on his backups (during their solid preseason performances), Matthews and Rob Johnson in trades while at Jax. I would have not taken a QB at that time, but was ok with me.


this is true, when he was drafted I believe the comment from the FO was, "I hope he never plays". He was drafted to be a back up and fulfilled that role.
this thread pretty much qualifies as trolling  
gidiefor : Mod : 12/6/2018 10:40 am : link
...
think of them more as insurance policies  
PaulBlakeTSU : 12/6/2018 12:03 pm : link
that weren't needed.
The Giants downfall was caused by two intertwining factors  
PaulBlakeTSU : 12/6/2018 12:19 pm : link
1. The Giants had historic levels of games lost due to injuries over a several year period of time

Here is where the Giants ranked in Football Outsiders's Adjusted Games Lost to Injury* (1 is least games lost, 32 is most games lost)

2017: 25
2016: 7
2015: 32
2014: 32
2013: 32
2012: 25
2011: 26
2010: 22
2008-2010 average: 14


It is astounding. Think of all the Giants players with potential/production whose careers were completely cut short and needed to be replaced? Steve Smith, Terrell Thomas, Kenny Phillips, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Ahmad Bradshaw, and David Wilson. Throw in Chad Jones's car accident and the two Sintim ACL tears before the start of his third season

Teams have limited draft/FA capital and when it has to be used to constantly replace high-producing guys, other parts of the team are going to suffer.


2. Jerry Reese and Mark Ross ignored signs that the offensive line from pre 2010 was deteriorating, and instead of putting a lot of draft resources into making sure it was strong enough to protect their franchise non-running QB, they invested in athletes whose measurables wowed them.

In Reese's (and Ross's) entire tenure, 12 drafts, the Giants took 11 Offensive linemen compared with 9 RBs, 9 WRs, and 5 receiving TEs.

By comparison, the Patriots took 21 offensive linemen and 5 RBs in that span.





*
Quote:
With Football Outsiders' Adjusted Games Lost (AGL) metric, we are able to quantify how much teams were affected by injuries based on two principles: (1) Injuries to starters, injury replacements and important situational reserves matter more than injuries to bench warmers; and (2) Injured players who do take the field are usually playing with reduced ability, which is why Adjusted Games Lost is based not strictly on whether the player is active for the game or not, but instead is based on the player's listed status that week (IR/PUP, out, doubtful, questionable or probable).
OP isnít wrong  
WillVAB : 12/6/2018 3:46 pm : link
But it isnít just Webb and Nassib. Reese wasted picks on guys like Rhett Bomar too among other QBs.

Just a terrible allocation of valuable resources. Those picks couldíve been traded for players, traded to move up in earlier rounds, or used on guys who had a potential to impact on the field.
Nassib didn't work out for several reasons  
GeofromNJ : 12/6/2018 10:01 pm : link
Mediocre arm and an inability to read pro defenses for example. However, the jury is still out on Webb. His arm is NFL caliber. Observers question his accuracy, and his ability to read defenses is as yet unknown. But it's way too soon to call him a bust. He was a wasted pick from the Giants standpoint because DG released him, but he could prove to be a successful NFL quarterback.
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