so a lot of people will think i'm crazy about this, but let me explain. in 2013, they drafted ryan nassib. i know i thought it was a surprise they drafted him, but they did. that season eli had his worst season when he threw 27 ints to 18tds.
after the season they hired ben mcadoo. i really didn't have a problem with hiring him because they had to try something to help out the offense. the offense improved the next two years, but i believe mcadoo was hired to try and get nassib in the lineup. jerry reese probably figured eli would be bad again, and mcadoo could convince coughlin to start nassib over eli. the big problem was that the offense actually improved with eli at qb and odell at wr while the defense was atrocious.
the two losing seasons in 14 and 15 led them to make a change thinking mcadoo would eventually replace eli, but they started to win because reese spent a bunch of money to fix the defense in an effort to save his job. the spending worked for a season, but the winning didn't last long.
by the time 2017 season rolled around reese felt comfortable drafting another mid round qb in davis webb, and then the eli clock began again bc they figured they built a good team that a young qb could take over. as the season went on the giants sucked and mcadoo decided to bench eli and put geno in, and all hell broke loose.
the point i'm trying to make is that if reese just focused on building a team and not on replacing eli this team would've continued to be in the playoff mix. by now they might have made the playoffs a couple times and had the young qb who could smoothly replace eli. instead reese reached trying to replace eli and failed. also keep in mind the giants were .500 or better every year up until the giants drafted nassib. maybe they weren't a 14-2 team, but they weren't nearly as chaotic as they are now. i really don't think that's a coincidence.
the last thing i want to say is that i want the giants to find the qb of the future, but until we know for sure what the plan is (maybe it could be lauletta) just stick with eli.
If Reese had only continued to add studs like Sinorice Moss, James Brewer, Bryan Kehl, Jerrel Jernigan, Travis Beckum and the likes instead of focusing on a backup for Eli, this franchise would have rocked!!!
If you identify his downfall, see Flowers, Pugh, Apple, Richburg, Wilson, Randle, etc...
No there was talk of him possibly going to NE in round 2. Which was clearly a media fabrication because Belichick passed on him in rounds 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Nearly everyone who hated the Nassib pick wanted either S Shamarko Thomas or LB Khaseem Greene. Neither played worked out either.
Nobody was trying to get Eli out of the lineup. McAdoo was hired to help improve the offense, which he did initially. Nassib and Webb were drafted solely to take a chance in the mid rounds on possibly finding a starting caliber QB who could either fill in for Eli if necessary, potentially succeed Eli, or become a tradeable asset with value. That's it. The misses on many, many other draft picks, and especially the inability to renew our offensive line with quality starters are what caused the Giants' downfall.
They don't line up draft year wise, but Reese missed on a gang of mid round OL who worked out well for the cubs that drafted them - Clint Boling x Georgia comes to mind, as do Rick Wagner and Rob Havenstein, both of Wisconsin. Boling is still with the team that drafted him in the 3rd round. Wagner has a huge FA contract after proving his worth and was a 5th round pick by the Ravens IIRC. Havenstein was a late 2nd round pick, but he's been better than Flowers from day 1.
Reese/Ross was a horrid draft day combo both for talent ID and for draft philosophy...
Exceptions are
JPP
OBJ
Sheppard (maybe)
If you identify his downfall, see Flowers, Pugh, Apple, Richburg, Wilson, Randle, etc...
I’ll nitpick and remove Wilson since that was something nobody could predict. Before the injury he looked like a poor mans saquon.
why do people continually completely miss this really evident point?
Etc. etc. etc. Nassib and Webb, small part of his failure. Belichick is always drafting quarterbacks,
Eli has been given more chances to succeed than any other Giants quarterback. Giants record under his watch since 11 is lousy.
Reese is at fault, Ross, Mara, McAdoo, Coughlin and yes even Eli, share in the blame.
I also supported the Webb pick because of his arm, size, and insane work ethic. Another reason was I didn't think that the Giants would be so bad last year that they would be in a position to draft Rosen, Allen, Mayfield, or Darnold in 2018. There were also rumors suggesting Webb might be a first round pick.
I thought they were both mid round picks. My view now is that it is probably a mistake in most cases to take a QB after round two. A few notable exceptions notwithstanding, most of the franchise QBs are taken in the first or second round.
Nassib and Webb didn't cause the Giants' downfall. That happened because Reese didn't draft or sign enough good OL. He also kept drafting athletes (Austin, Robinson, Petrus, Barden, etc.) with great measurables who couldn't play.
Forgot all about King Ramses, and was I ever all in on that dude. He compiled ridiculous stats in college, for San Luis Obispo right?
That's a list of guys who didn't LIKE to play football.
[quote] Who in heck was Robinson?
Forgot all about King Ramses, and was I ever all in on that dude. He compiled ridiculous stats in college, for San Luis Obispo right?
That's a list of guys who didn't LIKE to play football. [/quot
The JPP of tight ends!!
Nassib was a quarterback who never looked like he could be competent for a full game and was effectively out of the NFL after his rookie contract was up. Literally anyone off the street could draft a quarterback with that kind of career, let alone a professional front office.
No. None I ever saw. But Dave Te had him as a 2nd rounder. I think Lauletta is better than Nassib or Webb. But I'm not a scout.
I’d take a mulligan on The Flowers and Apple picks before I care about the mid round QBs
why do people continually completely miss this really evident point?
Because said point doesn’t leave anyone to blame and is based on logic.
Nassib filled a role that justified the round he was picked in. We still don't know if Webb was a good or bad pick. We only have the judgment of a QB whisperer who evaluated Webb in one preseason.
If I remember that correctly then that blows your whole conspiracy out of the water from the get-go.
Nassib was a quarterback who never looked like he could be competent for a full game and was effectively out of the NFL after his rookie contract was up. Literally anyone off the street could draft a quarterback with that kind of career, let alone a professional front office.
This is what you call 20/20 hindsight folks. Russ Lande who is a respected scout and former draft guru for the Sporting News had Nassib as his top QB for 2014 and ranked him higher than Teddy Bridgewater, Johnny Manziel, Blake Bortles, Derek Carr, and Jimmy Garappolo. It wasn't like they drafted some bum off the street. He didn't develop. It happens all the time to QBs.
Another good question is this:
Does anyone beside me read the OP as tongue in cheek?
Back in the day a thread like this usually earned the "r u serious" moniker
Quote:
Mainly because an equivalent player could have been picked in a later round without trading up.
Nassib was a quarterback who never looked like he could be competent for a full game and was effectively out of the NFL after his rookie contract was up. Literally anyone off the street could draft a quarterback with that kind of career, let alone a professional front office.
This is what you call 20/20 hindsight folks. Russ Lande who is a respected scout and former draft guru for the Sporting News had Nassib as his top QB for 2014 and ranked him higher than Teddy Bridgewater, Johnny Manziel, Blake Bortles, Derek Carr, and Jimmy Garappolo. It wasn't like they drafted some bum off the street. He didn't develop. It happens all the time to QBs.
Yes, it is also 20/20 hindsight that Reese's front office was poor at drafting for many years. But then again I'm not paid to project like they were. This is case in point: a guy they traded up to get had nearly the worst possible career outcome for a draft pick (aside from being cut before his rookie contract was up). He's still unemployed.
I remember the spin when he was drafted: "practically a first (or second) rounder!" Except no one else actually thought so in a quarterback starved league. Wasting multiple picks on a guy who will be out of the league is a one of many examples why the front office was a failure.
widmerseyebrow : 12/5/2018 8:02 pm : link : reply
Mainly because an equivalent player could have been picked in a later round without trading up.
He was a 4th rounder that played out his rookie contract. Count how many of those players exist in the NFL, let alone in Reese's tenure.
Not everything is about the performance of the player. It's like complaining that DeOssie was a waste of a pick at the LB position.
no...
Quote:
Nassib was a poor pick
widmerseyebrow : 12/5/2018 8:02 pm : link : reply
Mainly because an equivalent player could have been picked in a later round without trading up.
He was a 4th rounder that played out his rookie contract. Count how many of those players exist in the NFL, let alone in Reese's tenure.
Not everything is about the performance of the player. It's like complaining that DeOssie was a waste of a pick at the LB position.
We'll just have to disagree.
First off, I'm not sure how DeOssie is a comp. He's played a vital position well beyond his rookie contract. Actually played. If we for some reason cut him earlier in his career he would have made another team as a long snapper and gunner. Tremendous pick.
When you trade multiple assets to draft one player (Nassib), that player shouldn't be out of the NFL after 3 years or you're not doing a good job. I'm not saying he needed to develop into a starter. I'm saying I had zero confidence that he would be able to do his other job (play competently if Eli went down) had it come to that. Apparently no one else did either.
If all a backup quarteback needs to do is be cheap and hold a clipboard as you say (and not actually be able to play in an emergency), then you can throw a dart in round 5-7. Couldn't have done much worse.
We tend to focus too much on what he did with our #1 and #2 picks. Those arguments are valid. My problem is with his inability to identify talent at ALL levels. So many poor decisions that go unnoticed because those decisions were not high profile ones.
Then, we get to a game two years later and a guy who is filling in for our injured starter is a complete fail.
From that perspective, I think DG has done a much better job. We see some role players that he brought in starting to contribute. I started a thread on Fowler and I know that I mentioned these guys that are playing for us now in the secondary. Picking up our new right guard.
I know DG has taken some heat for a couple of moves like Solder but for the most part I am happy with the job he is doing. Especially when you compare him to Reese.
this is true, when he was drafted I believe the comment from the FO was, "I hope he never plays". He was drafted to be a back up and fulfilled that role.
Here is where the Giants ranked in Football Outsiders's Adjusted Games Lost to Injury* (1 is least games lost, 32 is most games lost)
2017: 25
2016: 7
2015: 32
2014: 32
2013: 32
2012: 25
2011: 26
2010: 22
2008-2010 average: 14
It is astounding. Think of all the Giants players with potential/production whose careers were completely cut short and needed to be replaced? Steve Smith, Terrell Thomas, Kenny Phillips, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Ahmad Bradshaw, and David Wilson. Throw in Chad Jones's car accident and the two Sintim ACL tears before the start of his third season
Teams have limited draft/FA capital and when it has to be used to constantly replace high-producing guys, other parts of the team are going to suffer.
2. Jerry Reese and Mark Ross ignored signs that the offensive line from pre 2010 was deteriorating, and instead of putting a lot of draft resources into making sure it was strong enough to protect their franchise non-running QB, they invested in athletes whose measurables wowed them.
In Reese's (and Ross's) entire tenure, 12 drafts, the Giants took 11 Offensive linemen compared with 9 RBs, 9 WRs, and 5 receiving TEs.
By comparison, the Patriots took 21 offensive linemen and 5 RBs in that span.
*
Just a terrible allocation of valuable resources. Those picks could’ve been traded for players, traded to move up in earlier rounds, or used on guys who had a potential to impact on the field.