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Whatís the plan with Landon Collins?

Doubledeuce22 : 12/7/2018 11:14 am
Iíll start off by saying I am against giving this guy a huge deal even before the injury. It looks like there are a bunch of good FS on the market this coming offseason and this could be a good way to reallocate money to the DL and OL.

Upcoming FS free agents:

Lamarcus Joyner
Earl Thomas
Tyrann Mathieu
HaHa Clinton-Dix
Adrian Phillips (big fan)
Adrian Amos (big fan as well for the price tag compared to Collins)

The money that we can potentially save by letting Collins walk and going out and using the money on someone like a Matt Paradis, the C from Denver, or making a play for Demarcus Lawrence (pipe dream as Iím sure heíll stay in Dallas), or Clowney or Dee Ford.

Thoughts?
I think  
mrvax : 12/7/2018 11:19 am : link
if the Giants can upgrade their linebackers, a true FS will be more important than SS. I'm thinking the Giants will make Collins an offer that he will scoff at and be lost to free agency.
They will try to work out a long term deal. Heís young  
Big Blue '56 : 12/7/2018 11:22 am : link
and when allowed to do what he does best, heís a terrific player. A solid complementary S would help a lot.

If they canít work out a deal, then theyíll most likely tag him, imo. Not sure whether theyíd prefer the franchise or transitional tag
I think itís a huge waste of money  
Doubledeuce22 : 12/7/2018 11:25 am : link
The guy is talented but his coverage skills are extremely sub par and the difference of having a pass rush against having a talented safety is much more important in my eyes. Hill and Tomlinson look to be good up the middle. If we can get that pass rush going itíll cover up some of the coverage warts in the secondary. Plus if we can use some of the money to sign a legit Center like Paradis that would be nice. I think we can all agree how big of a positive it is to have a top 10 Center.
Collins to Dix seems like a lateral move at best  
giants#1 : 12/7/2018 11:29 am : link
Philips or Amos would be interesting if you can get them in the $6-8M per range.

Mathieu would be awesome, but he's likely going to get close to whatever Collins gets, if not more. Also sounds like the Texans plan to keep him.

Love Earl Thomas, but he's getting up their in age and hasn't played a full 16 games since 2015.

C Matt Paradis might be my top FA target this offseason. Add him, re-sign Brown and they might finally have a solid interior OL. Draft an OT to compete with Wheeler and the arrow might finally be pointing up for the OL.

Lawrence/Clowney are likely franchise tag candidates, though I'd happily grab either if they hit the open market.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/7/2018 11:33 am : link
If Collins stays, I think Bettcher is going to have to use him more similarly to the way he was using Deone Bucannon in Arizona. Collins needs to play downhill and do what he's good at. I don't want to see him trying to cover scatbacks 20 yards down the field without help or struggling to keep up with more athletic TE's.

RE: Collins to Dix seems like a lateral move at best  
Bruner4329 : 12/7/2018 11:33 am : link
In comment 14208365 giants#1 said:
Quote:
Philips or Amos would be interesting if you can get them in the $6-8M per range.

Mathieu would be awesome, but he's likely going to get close to whatever Collins gets, if not more. Also sounds like the Texans plan to keep him.

Love Earl Thomas, but he's getting up their in age and hasn't played a full 16 games since 2015.

C Matt Paradis might be my top FA target this offseason. Add him, re-sign Brown and they might finally have a solid interior OL. Draft an OT to compete with Wheeler and the arrow might finally be pointing up for the OL.

Lawrence/Clowney are likely franchise tag candidates, though I'd happily grab either if they hit the open market.


We don't need someone to compete with Wheeler. WE need a replacement. He is not good.
I wouldn't break the bank  
gmenatlarge : 12/7/2018 11:33 am : link
but would try to keep him at a reasonable cost, I feel he is a very good free SS.
The franchise number  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 12/7/2018 11:40 am : link
for his position shouldn't be astronomical.

That said, Gettleman has a reputation for not paying defensive backs fwiw.
Will Collins be another in a long list of Giants who never sign a  
Ivan15 : 12/7/2018 11:41 am : link
second contract?

Collins has been totally exposed as a safety, unless there was a chronic injury no one is talking about. His shoulder may become chronic but that doesn't justify his inability to cover TEs.

If the Giants offer a "Prove it" deal, I doubt he takes it, and his performance the last couple of years under 2 different DCs doesn't justify tagging him.

It would suck to lose him for no return on investment, but it probably will be better that he learns to play LB somewhere else.

RE: I wouldn't break the bank  
arcarsenal : 12/7/2018 11:42 am : link
In comment 14208382 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
but would try to keep him at a reasonable cost, I feel he is a very good free SS.


A free SS?
Let him walk  
GeorgeAdams33 : 12/7/2018 12:01 pm : link
Collins has been freelancing and improvising all year by his own admission. He said back in camp that this D is like what he played at Alabama and that he has the freedom to move around a lot and bait the QB because his speed allowed him to get back in to break up passes after the QB thinks the receiver is open.

In other words, the guy thinks he is already a lot better than he will ever really be and that is his weakness. He thinks that he can just show up on the scene and the runners are going to go down trembling in fear. This season has been one of missed tackles and many failed half assed attempts to bring ballcarriers down or put them out of bounds. I would love to see a breakdown of YAC (yards after Collins) that ballcarriers exploited this guys inability or unwillingness to wrap up. That is why I loved safeties like Terry Kinard and Greg Jackson; their arms were so long they just attached themselves and spun people down if they couldn't get the big hit.

I am anxious to see if this defense is somewhat improved with Collins out. I have a hunch that we might be more sound. We might see people in position better; spaced out better so that there are no gaping holes for a QB to find a wide open receiver. Collins thinks he's like Lawrence Taylor and everybody else is forced to be Harry Carson & Co. covering his ass when he's out of position. LT made plays and that is why they let him continue doing whatever he was doing. He was in the front seven and in the backfield. Collins is out in the open and he gets exposed every week.

He is a self righteous prick about it too. I have never seen him point to himself and own it. Too proud. With his style of play, always looking to land the big hit, I worry about that shoulder. For now the silver lining is the fact that we get to see the defense without him for four games.
RE: RE: I wouldn't break the bank  
gmenatlarge : 12/7/2018 12:05 pm : link
In comment 14208394 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14208382 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


but would try to keep him at a reasonable cost, I feel he is a very good free SS.



A free SS?


whoops good SS
why wont those guys  
ron mexico : 12/7/2018 12:20 pm : link
cost more or the same as Collins?

Side note, why did the honey badger only get a 1 year deal at moderate money? Thought he was a pretty well regarded player during his time with AZ.
they'll make him a good offier  
Paulie Walnuts : 12/7/2018 12:41 pm : link
and hopefully get him a competent FS to play next to
Collins finished that game  
joeinpa : 12/7/2018 12:51 pm : link
With a busted shoulder.

Hard not to want that guy on your team
A solid FS and better LB's  
larryflower37 : 12/7/2018 12:57 pm : link
Will lessen his responsibility and improve his game. He is young and still can improve.
I think you bring him back 5 yrs 50 million 25 guaranteed.
If he plays out the deal he will be 29 yrs old.
RE: RE: Collins to Dix seems like a lateral move at best  
giants#1 : 12/7/2018 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14208381 Bruner4329 said:
Quote:
In comment 14208365 giants#1 said:


Quote:


Philips or Amos would be interesting if you can get them in the $6-8M per range.

Mathieu would be awesome, but he's likely going to get close to whatever Collins gets, if not more. Also sounds like the Texans plan to keep him.

Love Earl Thomas, but he's getting up their in age and hasn't played a full 16 games since 2015.

C Matt Paradis might be my top FA target this offseason. Add him, re-sign Brown and they might finally have a solid interior OL. Draft an OT to compete with Wheeler and the arrow might finally be pointing up for the OL.

Lawrence/Clowney are likely franchise tag candidates, though I'd happily grab either if they hit the open market.



We don't need someone to compete with Wheeler. WE need a replacement. He is not good.


I mean "compete" in the way Hernandez had to "compete" with Omameh for the starting LG spot (IIRC, WH was 2nd string for minicamp).

My preference would be start day 1 at RT and potentially play LT in 2-3 years.
Let him walk  
RobCarpenter : 12/7/2018 1:40 pm : link
The team needs to invest its resources into the front 7.
RE: The franchise number  
Carson53 : 12/7/2018 1:58 pm : link
In comment 14208391 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
for his position shouldn't be astronomical.

That said, Gettleman has a reputation for not paying defensive backs fwiw.
.

It's projected to be at 12 mill., for the FT.
Should have traded him.  
Default : 12/7/2018 2:16 pm : link
They'll overpay and immediately regret it.
Coming off injury  
PEEJ : 12/7/2018 2:23 pm : link
I doubt he'll get the long-term contract he's looking for
They should make a reasonable offer...  
Dan in the Springs : 12/7/2018 2:28 pm : link
probably around $32MM for a 4 year contract, maybe a little higher.

It's good for other players to see someone rewarded when they do things the right way. No one is questioning his effort from what I can tell. He's still young and his most important years are ahead of him. He can do what Bettcher wants at the position. I wouldn't be upset if they paid him as high as $45MM for four years either.

I think people underestimate how valuable he is in his role on this defense.
What's the franchise number look like for safeties?  
figgy2989 : 12/7/2018 2:32 pm : link
I agree to not giving him a long term deal, but there is a team out there that will give him a decent one year "prove it" deal.
UH,  
Doomster : 12/7/2018 2:44 pm : link
They will try to work out a long term deal. Heís young
Big Blue '56 : 11:22 am : link : reply
and when allowed to do what he does best, heís a terrific player.

Exactly what is it that he does best? Besides missing tackles, lack of coverage skills, and the ability to take himself out of the play....
RE: Coming off injury  
ron mexico : 12/7/2018 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14208602 PEEJ said:
Quote:
I doubt he'll get the long-term contract he's looking for


this shouldn't impact his career. I know all injuries are different but Earl Thomas had a torn shoulder labrum after the 2014 season and had no further issues with the shoulder (he has had subsequent leg injuries but those are unrelated)
RE: .  
adamg : 12/7/2018 2:59 pm : link
In comment 14208378 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
If Collins stays, I think Bettcher is going to have to use him more similarly to the way he was using Deone Bucannon in Arizona. Collins needs to play downhill and do what he's good at. I don't want to see him trying to cover scatbacks 20 yards down the field without help or struggling to keep up with more athletic TE's.


I think this is the right point. Bettcher hasn't used Collins as well as Spags did. That would seem to be on the coaches and not the player. Collins is awesome in the box. Top 5 at that. I keep him and go after a FS in the first couple of rounds in the draft.
Collins market value came down dramatically this year...  
Damon : 12/7/2018 3:10 pm : link
The injury doesnít help him either... Free agency can be humbling.
He's  
AcidTest : 12/7/2018 3:17 pm : link
a tough and talented player, but his coverage skills are a problem. He and Ogletree have been targeted all year. Our lack of pass rush also exacerbates that problem. I don't know if we can improve the pass rush enough in one season to compensate for his coverage skills, especially if we let Vernon go.

His shoulder injury might reduce his market value to the point where we could afford to bring him back on a one year 'prove it" deal. But I wouldn't be surprised if a team with a lot of cap space overpays for him to the point where we have to let him leave.
RE: What's the franchise number look like for safeties?  
bw in dc : 12/7/2018 4:28 pm : link
In comment 14208616 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
I agree to not giving him a long term deal, but there is a team out there that will give him a decent one year "prove it" deal.


I'm guessing $12M+. It's not a crazy number, especially with the cap expanding faster and faster every year, but Collins has such a glaring hole in his game. And the league exploits it.

Roy Williams was very similar, albeit a FS. Could lay the wood but could be exploited in the passing game - big time.
bw, I thought about Roy Williams too...  
trueblueinpw : 12/7/2018 4:49 pm : link
As far as I remember Williams, theyíre the exact same type of player. I might add though that ol Roy could really lay the thump on runners and receivers alike and I canít remember Collins doing so much of that big hitting the past two years. I think Collins has been getting by on his rookie season play for a while now. Heís not a plus player at the position and I would let him go on to new opportunities.

Donít see why we couldnít sign the Honey Badger or Early T. Thomas isnít a kid but either could be veteran leaders at a position that tends to allow for experience.
RE: UH,  
section125 : 12/7/2018 7:03 pm : link
In comment 14208628 Doomster said:
Quote:
They will try to work out a long term deal. Heís young
Big Blue '56 : 11:22 am : link : reply
and when allowed to do what he does best, heís a terrific player.

Exactly what is it that he does best? Besides missing tackles, lack of coverage skills, and the ability to take himself out of the play....


Missing tackles? One lie, all lies. There is nobody that tackles better than Collins on that defense.

Try again.
Section125  
Doomster : 12/7/2018 8:00 pm : link
you must get up to get a lot of beers.....
My expectations with Collins  
Big_Pete : 12/7/2018 9:16 pm : link
I do think we will franchise Collins. I don't think he will resign before hand. Much like what we did with Beckham with his 5th year option, I expect we will want to make sure Collins is healthy (and performs) for he gets his long term deal.

If do we franchise Collins, I expect we will get trade offers for him. We did listen to several trade offers for Landon Collins before the trade deadline. If we got a first round offer, Collins would have been traded; he is someone we are willing to move if the price is right.

If we get a good enough deal, Collins will get traded.
We were reportedly looking for a 1st round pick before the trade deadline, with Collins' injury.

I could see us pulling the trigger on trade deal something along the lines of a second and fourth/fifth round picks similar to what we got for Shockey (we wanted a 2nd + 4th; got 2nd and fifth).
There is no freakin'  
Doomster : 12/7/2018 11:33 pm : link
way you would get a first round pick for a SS that can't cover....
I'm always surprised by BBI's general take on Collins  
wigs in nyc : 12/7/2018 11:43 pm : link
I take that guy as my SS every day of the week.
You still need to be able to cover as a strong safety  
widmerseyebrow : 12/8/2018 2:53 am : link
Iím not sure why everyone thinks his weaknesses go away with that switch. Heís having trouble with tight ends and runnng backs. Thatís an issue even if youíre playing down in the box.
Even on a ďgood dealĒ  
widmerseyebrow : 12/8/2018 2:55 am : link
Youíre still left with a guy in your back seven that has trouble covering anyone decent.
Opening these Landon Collins threads  
eclipz928 : 12/8/2018 6:37 am : link
feels like walking in to the a twilight zone - it's strange that so many people don't understand how good of a safety he is. I'm wondering about who are all of these other great safeties out there better than Collins that people think that the Giants are just going to be able to shake from a tree.
The plan to me is easy. Collins is a player you want on your team  
Jimmy Googs : 12/8/2018 7:34 am : link
The fact that he has not had a plus-season this year for us only helps us with the economics...



RE: There is no freakin'  
Toth029 : 12/8/2018 11:10 am : link
In comment 14208948 Doomster said:
Quote:
way you would get a first round pick for a SS that can't cover....

Dude, Dallas traded a 1st for WR who had 600ish receiving yards the season before.
Transition Tag  
WillVAB : 12/8/2018 11:14 am : link
Seems like the best option. Cheaper than franchise tag and I doubt a team will offer him top safety money.
Collins is not a Free Safety ..  
Bluesbreaker : 12/8/2018 12:16 pm : link
He is a great downhill player and a solid tackler .
Transition tag might be the way to go .
Getting a Free agent RT and a Free safety but not sure
who on the market for a FS . He also has a nose for the football very good hands and can run like a HB.
We need all the help we can get on defense .
RE: The franchise number  
santacruzom : 12/8/2018 3:31 pm : link
In comment 14208391 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
for his position shouldn't be astronomical.

That said, Gettleman has a reputation for not paying defensive backs fwiw.


Yeah but he's got a recent history of overpaying the shit out of players.

Let's see what tendency wins!
...  
christian : 12/8/2018 3:54 pm : link
I'd be very concerned about a defensive program that can't find a place for Collins to really succeed.

If the Giants had a free safety or any depth to speak of at corner Collins wouldn't be in as much coverage.

Moving forward he's one of the better players in league. He can be a really disruptive player and worth good money just doing that.
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