but he's pretty high all-time among closers, so I can see where he got votes. Baines is ridiculous. There are many many players not in who are as or more deserving than him. No disrespect to him, he was a fine player, but the HOF almost doesn't mean anything if guys like him are in.
tim kurkjian will tweet about how hes got the most doubles adjusted for wind and park size on tuesdays against lefties with the middle name John, so his election was totally warranted.
for players so recent. I can understand the concept that over time we come to understand the game differently, and players whose value may not have been fully appreciated in their day come to be seen as more valuable than conventional wisdom previously gave them credit for. Does that really apply to guys like Smith and Baines (and Hershiser, Clark and Belle who were also on the ballot)? Baines fell off the ballot in 2011. Surely there's been no sea change in understanding the game since then that makes him worthy when he was getting 5% of the vote 7 years ago. It's one thing to reconsider guys when the game is viewed differently from when they were initially evaluated. It's another to simply say, naw, I disagree with the voters, even though they overwhelmingly passed on this guy.
was a guy who's knee problems robbed what maybe should have been a real Hall of Fame career. But he was the textbook example of a compiler of stats. A very good DH, "professional hitter", solid All Star, but I never saw him as a Hall of Famer. It's supposed to be the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good.
Smith is somewhat similar, also a compiler. For years they kept relievers out of the Hall, but once they changed it up (rightfully), now they will put in guys like Smith. Does Lee Smith ever belong in the same sentence as a Mariano Rivera?
As was mentioned above, the Hall is reaching to find guys from the 1990s as steroids took over who they feel didn't have that shadow cast.
I don't even think Smith is deserving. Francisco Rodriguez is now a HOFer if Smith is in. John Franco had a pretty similar career to Smith. Billy Wagner had a better career and was way more dominant than Smith. Joe Nathan was even better than Smith when you look at his numbers. This opens the door for a lot of relievers.
a compiler who didn't even clear some of the career hurdles like 3K hits or .300 avg or 400 HR's that might justify his election to traditional stats folks.
Smith at least was a closer with a ton of saves so there's not a lot of comparable guys out there but Baines opens the door for tons of players. Really could lead to serious dilution of the HOF.
Therd 120 players whose career war is higher than Harold bands and Lee Smith ..None of which are in the Hall of Fame ...
Edgar Martinez career war was 68 versus Harold at 38 his career OPS of 930 versus Harold at 820 ...
Lastly Worth mentioning: Four of the committee members were Jerry Reinsdorf, Baines' owner in Chicago; Tony La Russa, his manager with the White Sox; Roberto Alomar, a teammate with the Orioles; and Pat Gillick, his GM in Baltimore.
a compiler who didn't even clear some of the career hurdles like 3K hits or .300 avg or 400 HR's that might justify his election to traditional stats folks.
Smith at least was a closer with a ton of saves so there's not a lot of comparable guys out there but Baines opens the door for tons of players. Really could lead to serious dilution of the HOF.
Therd 120 players whose career war is higher than Harold bands and Lee Smith ..None of which are in the Hall of Fame ...
Edgar Martinez career war was 68 versus Harold at 38 his career OPS of 930 versus Harold at 820 ...
Lastly Worth mentioning: Four of the committee members were Jerry Reinsdorf, Baines' owner in Chicago; Tony La Russa, his manager with the White Sox; Roberto Alomar, a teammate with the Orioles; and Pat Gillick, his GM in Baltimore.
Yes that’s 120 players whose career war is higher than Lee Smith and Haro Banes combine
than most when it comes to the HOF, but this panel of voters putting Baines in is ridiculous. The bar has now been lowered to the point where dozens of guys now have legit cases for enshrinement.
And Baines makes it on the first ballot? politics man politics...
You're mixing things up. Rice made it on the writers' ballot - yes, it took him a long time, but he eventually made it. Baines fell off the writers' ballot after a few years, getting very little support every year. He's been elected now by the veterans committee, which considers guys who weren't voted in by the writers.
throw out your favorites who were better than Baines and should now get in! I can probably list 10+ Yankees alone: Nettles, Randolph, Bernie, Posada, O'Neill, Mattingly, Mussina, Pettite, Roy White, Cone, Munson, Guidry,
The guy changed the game probably more than any owner in history. But not enough for the HoF voters.
Lou Pinella was one vote away from getting in! I mean cmon
No Steinbrenner is absurd, I'm guessing because of the suspension. You can skip over Harold Baines in baseball history and not skip a beat.
You can't do that with George.
it wasn't just one suspension with George. In my opinion he should be in the HOF, but it's not hard to see why others may feel differently. That said, Tom Yawkey is in...so the bar for non-players isn't all that high.
Baines was a good player and a good hitter but a compiler.
You guys forget the politics of the HOF. Baines is reputed to be a nice man (so no one is triggered and no domestic violence surprises) and there has been no whispers of PED about him. It's going to be a real challenge for the HOF voters as to what to do with the players of PED era.
Lee Smith was a great reliever and no problem with him getting in the Hall.
7-time all-star, 478 saves career with a 3.03 career ERA. He was an effective and at times dominant reliever for 15 seasons.
Regarding Baines, I don't have a big problem with him getting in. Heard someone on a talk program over the weekend say it this way ... when asked about being a guy who accumulate stats for 22 years. The guy responded, "There are guys who play that long and DON'T accumulate stats." I know, weak argument ... but hell, he's already got a statue outside the ChiSox stadium. The people love Baines. Why not!
Smith was lights out, and the Cubs were able to win the 84 NL East and hold off the up and coming Mets all because of Smith. I have no problem with him being a HOF, Baines, never ever thought I was watching one of the greats of the game, let alone best of his era.
I believe he retired as the all time leader in saves and was dominant for a number of years.
Baines is a joke. He was a good to very good player for a number of years, but never among the very best in the game. With Baines in, I have to believe Mattingly will get in. He was a much better player in his peak and a higher WAR and OPS+. Really, Baines only had a few extra years of compiling numbers over him. Another example is Bernie Williams, who someone mentioned. Again, higher WAR and OPS+ and a much better player in his peak years, plus a key cog on multiple championship teams. I would have to say Munson and Guidry also. Non-Yankees would have to get Edgar Martinez in right away and Posada with serious consideration.
To show how insane it is to vote in Baines, that would at least open the door for a guy like O'Neill, Ken Singleton, Roy White, Nettles, Evans, and a number of others who you would never have suggested were HOF players.
Looking at all the HOF measures on Baseball Reference, Baines' wasn't even close.
In comment 14216636 FatMan in Charlotte said:
[quote] Baines called a stat compiler, but he really isn't.
He didn't even reach 3,000 hits.Put it this way, he averaged only 130 hits a season over a 22-year career!
If I had my tin foil hat on, I'd say the writers are just trying to pave the way for Big Papi to get in! [/quoteThis isn't the writers, though. It is the current version of what used to be the veterans committee.
was that Mattingly should now be in. Higher WAR AND OPS+
and a dominant peak zhortened only by injury. Baines was a solid player l, who simply lazted longer. He was never one of the top players in the game.
Smith, at least, retired with the most career saves and was xominant at one point in his career.
There are now so many players who most would say fall a little short of thd HOF, who, by comparison should also get in based on this. Hell, off the top of my head I can come up with nearly 10 Yankees from my lifetime in Posada, Bernie, O'Neill, Munson, Roy White, Nettles, Guidry, Pettitte,Mussina. Of that bunch, thdrd are really only a few that I felt were HOFers prior to this news. But the bar was significantly lowered with Baines. There are dozens of others from around the league like Singleton, Evans, Edgar (should be in no matter what), Hell maybe even a guy Justice based on Baines.
The problem with this logic is that the deck was stacked in his favor with this group, which would not be the case for most other players in a given year.
I believe 3 of the voters either played with or coached Baines, and the 3rd employed him. None were required to recuse themselves. There is a good article in the Ringer about how ridiculous a choice Baines is.
The Ringer piece also highlights thee worst HOF picks, and almost all of them were veteran's committee (or its antecedents) picks. HOF needs to do something about it.
Someone mentioned Don Mattingly, I'm not even a Yankees fan, but Mattingly is 100x better than Baines. Hell, I'd put Keith Hernandez in before Baines, and I don't think Keith should get in without a ticket! The Case Against Baines - ( New Window )
Neither should be in the hall of fame based on my perception at least.
nothing is sacred.
But Coopertown? NFW. Especially Baines. Good player but nowhere near HoF status. This is embarrassing...
Smith is somewhat similar, also a compiler. For years they kept relievers out of the Hall, but once they changed it up (rightfully), now they will put in guys like Smith. Does Lee Smith ever belong in the same sentence as a Mariano Rivera?
As was mentioned above, the Hall is reaching to find guys from the 1990s as steroids took over who they feel didn't have that shadow cast.
I don't even think Smith is deserving. Francisco Rodriguez is now a HOFer if Smith is in. John Franco had a pretty similar career to Smith. Billy Wagner had a better career and was way more dominant than Smith. Joe Nathan was even better than Smith when you look at his numbers. This opens the door for a lot of relievers.
But Coopertown? NFW. Especially Baines. Good player but nowhere near HoF status. This is embarrassing...
With you on that.
How is he in but Edgar Martinez isn't?
What Horse shit.
What Horse shit.
Absolutely. This sets an incredible precedent and brings a lot of players back into the picture. Players considerably better than Baines.
Smith at least was a closer with a ton of saves so there's not a lot of comparable guys out there but Baines opens the door for tons of players. Really could lead to serious dilution of the HOF.
Edgar Martinez career war was 68 versus Harold at 38 his career OPS of 930 versus Harold at 820 ...
Lastly Worth mentioning: Four of the committee members were Jerry Reinsdorf, Baines' owner in Chicago; Tony La Russa, his manager with the White Sox; Roberto Alomar, a teammate with the Orioles; and Pat Gillick, his GM in Baltimore.
Smith at least was a closer with a ton of saves so there's not a lot of comparable guys out there but Baines opens the door for tons of players. Really could lead to serious dilution of the HOF.
David Wright now has a chance..
Edgar Martinez career war was 68 versus Harold at 38 his career OPS of 930 versus Harold at 820 ...
Lastly Worth mentioning: Four of the committee members were Jerry Reinsdorf, Baines' owner in Chicago; Tony La Russa, his manager with the White Sox; Roberto Alomar, a teammate with the Orioles; and Pat Gillick, his GM in Baltimore.
Yes that’s 120 players whose career war is higher than Lee Smith and Haro Banes combine
I agree with this. Evans was a much more dangerous hitter and one of the best fielders of his generation.
Jim Edmonds, Bobby Abreu, Larry Walker, etc.... all these guys were far far better than Baines.
You're mixing things up. Rice made it on the writers' ballot - yes, it took him a long time, but he eventually made it. Baines fell off the writers' ballot after a few years, getting very little support every year. He's been elected now by the veterans committee, which considers guys who weren't voted in by the writers.
Lou Pinella was one vote away from getting in! I mean cmon
No Steinbrenner is absurd, I'm guessing because of the suspension. You can skip over Harold Baines in baseball history and not skip a beat.
You can't do that with George.
Quote:
The guy changed the game probably more than any owner in history. But not enough for the HoF voters.
Lou Pinella was one vote away from getting in! I mean cmon
No Steinbrenner is absurd, I'm guessing because of the suspension. You can skip over Harold Baines in baseball history and not skip a beat.
You can't do that with George.
it wasn't just one suspension with George. In my opinion he should be in the HOF, but it's not hard to see why others may feel differently. That said, Tom Yawkey is in...so the bar for non-players isn't all that high.
You guys forget the politics of the HOF. Baines is reputed to be a nice man (so no one is triggered and no domestic violence surprises) and there has been no whispers of PED about him. It's going to be a real challenge for the HOF voters as to what to do with the players of PED era.
Lee Smith was a great reliever and no problem with him getting in the Hall.
Regarding Baines, I don't have a big problem with him getting in. Heard someone on a talk program over the weekend say it this way ... when asked about being a guy who accumulate stats for 22 years. The guy responded, "There are guys who play that long and DON'T accumulate stats." I know, weak argument ... but hell, he's already got a statue outside the ChiSox stadium. The people love Baines. Why not!
Baines is a joke. He was a good to very good player for a number of years, but never among the very best in the game. With Baines in, I have to believe Mattingly will get in. He was a much better player in his peak and a higher WAR and OPS+. Really, Baines only had a few extra years of compiling numbers over him. Another example is Bernie Williams, who someone mentioned. Again, higher WAR and OPS+ and a much better player in his peak years, plus a key cog on multiple championship teams. I would have to say Munson and Guidry also. Non-Yankees would have to get Edgar Martinez in right away and Posada with serious consideration.
To show how insane it is to vote in Baines, that would at least open the door for a guy like O'Neill, Ken Singleton, Roy White, Nettles, Evans, and a number of others who you would never have suggested were HOF players.
Looking at all the HOF measures on Baseball Reference, Baines' wasn't even close.
Because, per committee member and his former managerTony La Russia, Baines had a lot of game winning RBIs.
Watch his contentious interview today with Chris Russo on YouTube today.
You can’t make it up.
He didn't even reach 3,000 hits.Put it this way, he averaged only 130 hits a season over a 22-year career!
If I had my tin foil hat on, I'd say the writers are just trying to pave the way for Big Papi to get in!
Never even higher than 9th in MVP voting.
A complete farce by almost any metric
He didn't even reach 3,000 hits.Put it this way, he averaged only 130 hits a season over a 22-year career!
If I had my tin foil hat on, I'd say the writers are just trying to pave the way for Big Papi to get in!
Re: 3K hits. I heard the committee thought Baines was deprived of 3K because of the the two strike shortened seasons he endured...
[quote] Baines called a stat compiler, but he really isn't.
He didn't even reach 3,000 hits.Put it this way, he averaged only 130 hits a season over a 22-year career!
If I had my tin foil hat on, I'd say the writers are just trying to pave the way for Big Papi to get in! [/quoteThis isn't the writers, though. It is the current version of what used to be the veterans committee.
Quote:
I don’t understand why?
Because, per committee member and his former managerTony La Russia, Baines had a lot of game winning RBIs.
Watch his contentious interview today with Chris Russo on YouTube today.
You can’t make it up.
I'm sure that didn't factor in, right?
Baines was a fine player. But a Hall of Famer? One of the BEST PLAYERS IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL? That's complete bullshit.
and a dominant peak zhortened only by injury. Baines was a solid player l, who simply lazted longer. He was never one of the top players in the game.
Smith, at least, retired with the most career saves and was xominant at one point in his career.
There are now so many players who most would say fall a little short of thd HOF, who, by comparison should also get in based on this. Hell, off the top of my head I can come up with nearly 10 Yankees from my lifetime in Posada, Bernie, O'Neill, Munson, Roy White, Nettles, Guidry, Pettitte,Mussina. Of that bunch, thdrd are really only a few that I felt were HOFers prior to this news. But the bar was significantly lowered with Baines. There are dozens of others from around the league like Singleton, Evans, Edgar (should be in no matter what), Hell maybe even a guy Justice based on Baines.
The problem with this logic is that the deck was stacked in his favor with this group, which would not be the case for most other players in a given year.
The Ringer piece also highlights thee worst HOF picks, and almost all of them were veteran's committee (or its antecedents) picks. HOF needs to do something about it.
Someone mentioned Don Mattingly, I'm not even a Yankees fan, but Mattingly is 100x better than Baines. Hell, I'd put Keith Hernandez in before Baines, and I don't think Keith should get in without a ticket!
The Case Against Baines - ( New Window )
Both Mattingly and Hernandez were MVP's and finished in the top 5 of the voting at least 3 years.
Baines was never even in the top 5 of MVP voting in any of his 22 years.
That's survival, not thriving.
Baines never had 200 hits and only had 2 seasons above 180 hits.
There really aren't any comparative metrics to place Baines above peers except for playing 22 years.