I will reiterate this team hasn't accomplished anything yet, and they are still 3 games to go before the season can really be evaluated.
But....4-5 weeks ago, the NY media was murdering him for the Ogletree trade. Goes to show you that you need to wait for a full season to play out before jumping to conclusions. Gettleman has been silent and waiting in the wings...which I'm sure isn't easy to do. Ogletree clearly needed to get more confortable with Betcher's system and I would expect his play to be very solid and even better next year as he and alot of the guys will be a full year under the new system.
Some other moves appear to be playing out as well. Kareem Martin and Josh Mauro are providing solid depth. Antonio Hamilton is playing well on specials. B.W. Webb was a solid signing and so was Michael Thomas. Even Spencer Pulley has seemed to settle in , although his future is a backup. Russel Shepard has had a nice few weeks also. Guys like Elijah Penny, Tony Lippett, Grant Haley, may prove to be valuable players going forwrad. And most importantly the 2018 draft class appears to be a really good 1st draft class for Gettleman.
This is not to say he hasn't made mistakes, obviously. Omameh was a mistake, but he let him go. Connor Barwin and Jonathan Stewart weren't the right moves in hindsight, but my guess is Gettleman will admit is follies....as no GM has a perfect track record.
Hmmmm...When I read a quote like this I wonder if they ever watch other teams?
For instance Darnold, who is only 21 years old, his team put up 27 points yesterday, and he had a game winning 4th quarter drive.
You do realize he is doing this with a bottom 5 wr core, and a terrible running game right? In five years from now he will be twice the QB he is right now, with another ten years of solid QB play.
This is not a knock on Barkley, cuz I do like him, but If Darnold was on the Giants right now, our future would have been set for quite sometime...So no we aren't wrong
But the Redskins were ready to tank this game. They were down to quarterbacks they just signed off the street and with on their 5th or 6th guards. The first quarter looked like a contest between two bad football teams until the floodgates opened with the Sanchez pick. Then the air went out of the Skins.
The good news is that the Giants are playing hard and finally looking like an improving football team. But our defense still concerns the (blank) out of me. We have had issues with a string of second- and third-string quarterbacks during this winning streak. Can you imagine if we had to play Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes?
He has the 2nd most picks by a LB over the last 3 seasons so clearly he regularly makes plays. More than anything though the guy is an out and out leader which we've lacked for a long time. It just works so much better when your MLB is the emotional and analytical leader of the team.
I think he is someone we can build around. Folks used to complain about Pierce for some of the same things (exploited in coverage, not physical enough at POA etc).
Nice to see a Brit saying "we."
But the Redskins were ready to tank this game. They were down to quarterbacks they just signed off the street and with on their 5th or 6th guards. The first quarter looked like a contest between two bad football teams until the floodgates opened with the Sanchez pick. Then the air went out of the Skins.
The good news is that the Giants are playing hard and finally looking like an improving football team. But our defense still concerns the (blank) out of me. We have had issues with a string of second- and third-string quarterbacks during this winning streak. Can you imagine if we had to play Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes?
yeah, we need pass rushers no doubt. And a FS who can cover the field. And another run stuffing DT to spell Tomlinson and BJ Hill. For the 1st time in the 3 years though, I like the direction we're going....and I've always been a huge Gettleman fan...so I'm rooting for him hard.
We've got a LONG way to go to become a championship caliber team, and we certainly need to land our QB of the future in order to some day get there. Whether one of Darnold, Rosen, Allen or Jackson could have been a savior remains to be seen.
But the rest of the roster needs significant improvement as well. And I do see a way forward; and that includes making the hard decisions DG did recently.
Andy in Boston : 9:54 am : link : reply
every team is banged up.
We had no Odell, No Colins, No Snacks, missing our starting center. Vernon, JackRabbit, Engram have been banged up all year.
Where I'll violently disagree is the idea that injuries are no excuse. They most definitely are a valid excuse because I've found no other factor more indicative of success or failure that has been consistent over the past 20 years than overall team health. Here are some points:
- All but 2 SB's since 2000 have featured at least one team in the top 5 of health
- Last year, 10 of the 12 playoff teams finished in the top 15 of the league in overall health. While that looks like an outlier, the two years prior were 10 teams and 9 teams.
- The Giants have been in the bottom quarter of the league in team health every year but one since 2011 - that year was 2016, when they were in the top 5 of good health. 4 seasons they were dead last
- No team who was dead last in health even made the playoffs since 2000. The healthiest team in the league has made the playoffs all but 3 years in that span.
I know the common retort from fans is that injuries don't matter, but they matter. Significantly.
I don’t want to hear about playing backup QBs. This is the new norm with the way teams have shifted towards mobile, athletic QBs. Mobile QBs miss games. Every rookie QB has missed time due to injury this year except Mayfield I believe. Every mobile QB not named Mahomes has dealt with an injury or two.
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Gay Ramone : 9:42 am : link : reply
Will give credit when he figures a way to orchestrate a deal to correct another mistake made this past offseason ...
Nobody could have predicted the impact Barkley has made on this team, but it’s apparent he has made another player expendable and that player could return multiple players and/or picks ...
What's the motivation to continually and intentionally look like a fucking moron?
FM, I'd have to go searching the game thread, but I think he's the one who admitted that he's hated Beckham since day one.
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Injuries are no excuse in this league.
Andy in Boston : 9:54 am : link : reply
every team is banged up.
We had no Odell, No Colins, No Snacks, missing our starting center. Vernon, JackRabbit, Engram have been banged up all year.
Where I'll violently disagree is the idea that injuries are no excuse. They most definitely are a valid excuse because I've found no other factor more indicative of success or failure that has been consistent over the past 20 years than overall team health. Here are some points:
- All but 2 SB's since 2000 have featured at least one team in the top 5 of health
- Last year, 10 of the 12 playoff teams finished in the top 15 of the league in overall health. While that looks like an outlier, the two years prior were 10 teams and 9 teams.
- The Giants have been in the bottom quarter of the league in team health every year but one since 2011 - that year was 2016, when they were in the top 5 of good health. 4 seasons they were dead last
- No team who was dead last in health even made the playoffs since 2000. The healthiest team in the league has made the playoffs all but 3 years in that span.
I know the common retort from fans is that injuries don't matter, but they matter. Significantly.
I agree with this post, which is why I continue to be mystified by the way much of the NFL allocates its cap space and uses its roster.
If injuries are such a significant determinant of results (and I believe they are), why isn't more emphasis being placed on roster depth? With few exceptions, I think a team is better off with 5 $4M players than with 1 $20M player.
Yup.
Ogletree has been a very mixed bag, he's played well of late, and has really struggled at other times.
But always be careful of looking at stats like these and taking them too far to the positive or the negative...remember Stevie Brown and his one-year wonder playing Safety.
Ogletree's play still leaves a lot to be desired in both pass/run support this season...even yesterday at times.
I agree in principal with many of the points, but disagree with the overall radical approach, especially with the QB position. We do see that having a cost-controlled QB on a rookie contract is part of the formula for success, but where that breaks down is that it still has to be the right QB. Cluster drafting a bunch of mobile QB's will likely not lead to anymore success than having a very good pocket QB.
But the health thing cannot be overlooked. The problem is - it is really difficult to team-build around this. In theory, it seems like stockpiling a lot of mid-priced guys is sound, until the team has success and then those guys become either ex-teammates or get a big payday. Or, you stockpile a bunch of middle-priced guys who play like middle-priced guys and the team gets hit with injuries leaving them with an exposed poor depth that nearly every team is forced to field due to the cap.
It's a huge factor in why long-term success eludes 85% of the league.
If injuries are such a significant determinant of results (and I believe they are), why isn't more emphasis being placed on roster depth? With few exceptions, I think a team is better off with 5 $4M players than with 1 $20M player.
Look what ONE guy like Saquon or Rodgers or Brady or Russel Wilson brings to a team.
On defense, Aaron Donald or Earl Thomas...
Ogletree has been a very mixed bag, he's played well of late, and has really struggled at other times.
sigh.....some of guys need to realize that just because a LB gives up some big plays against RB's and TE's who are quicker andfaster, doesn't mean he's not playing well. Good have bad games...and Ogletree had a few. And some of you guys need to realize its not a video game, where you are going to just jump into a new system and starting making impact plays right off the bat. Things do take time.
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some of you guys need to learn how to watch the game and figure out for yourselves how a player is performing. The coach is typically going to be supportive and positive especially via the media.
Ogletree has been a very mixed bag, he's played well of late, and has really struggled at other times.
sigh.....some of guys need to realize that just because a LB gives up some big plays against RB's and TE's who are quicker andfaster, doesn't mean he's not playing well. Good have bad games...and Ogletree had a few. And some of you guys need to realize its not a video game, where you are going to just jump into a new system and starting making impact plays right off the bat. Things do take time.
good players have bad games.
They're also not as good as they've looked beating up on TB, the Redskins and San Francisco.
Welcome to the NFL where you're never quite as bad (or as good) as you look on your best/worst day.
In any given year you have the Pats (usually) and a few other teams at the top (this year Nola, KC and LAR). At the bottom you (usually) have Cleveland and a few others (this year San Fran, Arizona, Oakland).
Other than that, what is separating these teams other than penalties/officiating, health, and dumb luck (guys hitting 63 yard FGs one week and missing EPs the next)? The answer is very little.
To the OP, yes, do give DG credit! Give him credit for being tireless in turning over this roster, credit for his draft, and credit for being willing to let go of mistakes as soon as they become mistakes.
As a matter of fact, credit both DG and Shurmur for making something out of a 1-7 season and providing some level of hope for next year and beyond when it had been lost according to so many.
I don't expect perfection, I don't dispute he's performing better of late on a poor defense. The reality is he's not the player he's being paid to be. It's got nothing to do with a video game. It's called being a solid professional.
I Keep going back to the same shit i was saying prior to the 2017 season. Make this defense evil good and none of the other shit will matter. Shaky OL that can be overwhelmed at times? Defense will cover that up. Eli takes too many sacks? Defense wins championships.
Fix the D above all else and we will be just fine.
I don't expect perfection, I don't dispute he's performing better of late on a poor defense. The reality is he's not the player he's being paid to be. It's got nothing to do with a video game. It's called being a solid professional.
Interesting.
I heard Banks on with Evan and Joe this morning and he singled Ogletree out as someone who is playing well, and has really gotten comfortable with the scheme.
He also said he credits a lot of that to AO now just concentrating on doing his job, and not worrying about getting others in place or trying to cover for them. He said he's now just doing his job and doing it well.
It's a bit reminiscent of that safety a few years back who managed to reel in a ton of INTs despite being a below average player and overall liability.
His name is escaping me at the moment.
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Watch his repeatedly not read his keys and guess wrongly on gap assignments, allowing backs to run free in the secondary. Basic LB, basic defense, and he stinks at it.
I don't expect perfection, I don't dispute he's performing better of late on a poor defense. The reality is he's not the player he's being paid to be. It's got nothing to do with a video game. It's called being a solid professional.
Interesting.
I heard Banks on with Evan and Joe this morning and he singled Ogletree out as someone who is playing well, and has really gotten comfortable with the scheme.
He also said he credits a lot of that to AO now just concentrating on doing his job, and not worrying about getting others in place or trying to cover for them. He said he's now just doing his job and doing it well.
There's been an uptick in his play, but plenty of room for improvement, and no room for a slide back either.
I don't expect perfection, I don't dispute he's performing better of late on a poor defense. The reality is he's not the player he's being paid to be. It's got nothing to do with a video game. It's called being a solid professional.
We’ll agree to disagree- he’s a former 1st rounder, has had a productive career and is better than the dozens of linebackers we’ve had here for the last 10 years .... and there’s a reason he was given the contract he has.
I agree in principal with many of the points, but disagree with the overall radical approach, especially with the QB position. We do see that having a cost-controlled QB on a rookie contract is part of the formula for success, but where that breaks down is that it still has to be the right QB. Cluster drafting a bunch of mobile QB's will likely not lead to anymore success than having a very good pocket QB.
But the health thing cannot be overlooked. The problem is - it is really difficult to team-build around this. In theory, it seems like stockpiling a lot of mid-priced guys is sound, until the team has success and then those guys become either ex-teammates or get a big payday. Or, you stockpile a bunch of middle-priced guys who play like middle-priced guys and the team gets hit with injuries leaving them with an exposed poor depth that nearly every team is forced to field due to the cap.
It's a huge factor in why long-term success eludes 85% of the league.
The very good pocket QBs are rare, though, and may even be a dying breed due to changes in college football. If Drew Brees falls on your lap you hold on and pay whatever it takes to keep him...but as we've seen paying Stafford or Cousins that kind of money doesn't make them Brees.
Here's a fun fact - the Giants have conceded fewer points than the Chiefs have...yet the Chiefs are 11-2 and we're 5-8.
This game is about offense, and it's increasingly about the mobile QB. I switched off the Giants game yesterday around the second quarter to watch Baltimore and Kansas City, and I was glad I did. It still shows that Jackson only has a few start under his belt, but Baltimore is a better team with him running the offense instead of Flacco. With a running QB (or QBs) and a coach committed to running the ball creatively, you can do a lot of damage in this league. Watch Baltimore in these playoffs. They can go anywhere and beat anyone.
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I sometimes think your roster building methods are a bit Kevorkian.
I agree in principal with many of the points, but disagree with the overall radical approach, especially with the QB position. We do see that having a cost-controlled QB on a rookie contract is part of the formula for success, but where that breaks down is that it still has to be the right QB. Cluster drafting a bunch of mobile QB's will likely not lead to anymore success than having a very good pocket QB.
But the health thing cannot be overlooked. The problem is - it is really difficult to team-build around this. In theory, it seems like stockpiling a lot of mid-priced guys is sound, until the team has success and then those guys become either ex-teammates or get a big payday. Or, you stockpile a bunch of middle-priced guys who play like middle-priced guys and the team gets hit with injuries leaving them with an exposed poor depth that nearly every team is forced to field due to the cap.
It's a huge factor in why long-term success eludes 85% of the league.
The very good pocket QBs are rare, though, and may even be a dying breed due to changes in college football. If Drew Brees falls on your lap you hold on and pay whatever it takes to keep him...but as we've seen paying Stafford or Cousins that kind of money doesn't make them Brees.
Here's a fun fact - the Giants have conceded fewer points than the Chiefs have...yet the Chiefs are 11-2 and we're 5-8.
This game is about offense, and it's increasingly about the mobile QB. I switched off the Giants game yesterday around the second quarter to watch Baltimore and Kansas City, and I was glad I did. It still shows that Jackson only has a few start under his belt, but Baltimore is a better team with him running the offense instead of Flacco. With a running QB (or QBs) and a coach committed to running the ball creatively, you can do a lot of damage in this league. Watch Baltimore in these playoffs. They can go anywhere and beat anyone.
Another fun fact: Giants lead NFC East in scoring, but are in last place.
Go figure.
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Watch his repeatedly not read his keys and guess wrongly on gap assignments, allowing backs to run free in the secondary. Basic LB, basic defense, and he stinks at it.
I don't expect perfection, I don't dispute he's performing better of late on a poor defense. The reality is he's not the player he's being paid to be. It's got nothing to do with a video game. It's called being a solid professional.
We’ll agree to disagree- he’s a former 1st rounder, has had a productive career and is better than the dozens of linebackers we’ve had here for the last 10 years .... and there’s a reason he was given the contract he has.
There's also a reason why the Rams cut him loose only one year into that contract.
He's an improvement for NYG, but that's not saying much. At a cost of $10M per, when we badly need a talent infusion and capital investment in pass rushers, I'd rather move on.
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While I don't think you were necessarily saying injuries don't matter, they play a significant part in team performance:
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Injuries are no excuse in this league.
Andy in Boston : 9:54 am : link : reply
every team is banged up.
We had no Odell, No Colins, No Snacks, missing our starting center. Vernon, JackRabbit, Engram have been banged up all year.
Where I'll violently disagree is the idea that injuries are no excuse. They most definitely are a valid excuse because I've found no other factor more indicative of success or failure that has been consistent over the past 20 years than overall team health. Here are some points:
- All but 2 SB's since 2000 have featured at least one team in the top 5 of health
- Last year, 10 of the 12 playoff teams finished in the top 15 of the league in overall health. While that looks like an outlier, the two years prior were 10 teams and 9 teams.
- The Giants have been in the bottom quarter of the league in team health every year but one since 2011 - that year was 2016, when they were in the top 5 of good health. 4 seasons they were dead last
- No team who was dead last in health even made the playoffs since 2000. The healthiest team in the league has made the playoffs all but 3 years in that span.
I know the common retort from fans is that injuries don't matter, but they matter. Significantly.
I agree with this post, which is why I continue to be mystified by the way much of the NFL allocates its cap space and uses its roster.
If injuries are such a significant determinant of results (and I believe they are), why isn't more emphasis being placed on roster depth? With few exceptions, I think a team is better off with 5 $4M players than with 1 $20M player.
1. Only QBs + Mack + Donald make >$20M
2. You overestimate the ability of $4M players. Replacing Beckham, with 5 players averaging $3.6M ($18/5) would not make this a better team, unless you catch lightening in a bottle with an Adam Thielen ($4.8M per). More likely you'd end up with Terrance Williams ($4.25M), Kevin White ($4.1M), Chris Hogan ($4.0M), Ted Ginn ($3.66M), and Willie Snead ($3.5M) which would be one of the worst WR corps in the game (see Dallas pre Cooper trade)
Now, if you advocated trading down in the draft and building depth that way, then I'd agree with you. But low level FA "depth" acquisitions are how you get guys like John Jerry and Patrick Omameh. (this is not an endorsement of overpaying for Solder)
The very good pocket QBs are rare, though, and may even be a dying breed due to changes in college football. If Drew Brees falls on your lap you hold on and pay whatever it takes to keep him...but as we've seen paying Stafford or Cousins that kind of money doesn't make them Brees.
Here's a fun fact - the Giants have conceded fewer points than the Chiefs have...yet the Chiefs are 11-2 and we're 5-8.
This game is about offense, and it's increasingly about the mobile QB. I switched off the Giants game yesterday around the second quarter to watch Baltimore and Kansas City, and I was glad I did. It still shows that Jackson only has a few start under his belt, but Baltimore is a better team with him running the offense instead of Flacco. With a running QB (or QBs) and a coach committed to running the ball creatively, you can do a lot of damage in this league. Watch Baltimore in these playoffs. They can go anywhere and beat anyone.
And the very good mobile QBs aren't rare? How about the very good mobile QBs that actually stay healthy for 10+ years?
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Sorry, but you seem to forget all of those plays where teams were targeting Ogletree in coverage and he simply couldn't cover anyone. Just a few weeks ago, EVERYONE was railing against Ogletree. Then the ball started bouncing his way. (Like yesterday, the ball bounced into his arms).
It's a bit reminiscent of that safety a few years back who managed to reel in a ton of INTs despite being a below average player and overall liability.
His name is escaping me at the moment.
Landon Collins! :-)
I assume you're really thinking about Stevie Brown and his 8 INTs!
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In comment 14213009 JonC said:
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Watch his repeatedly not read his keys and guess wrongly on gap assignments, allowing backs to run free in the secondary. Basic LB, basic defense, and he stinks at it.
I don't expect perfection, I don't dispute he's performing better of late on a poor defense. The reality is he's not the player he's being paid to be. It's got nothing to do with a video game. It's called being a solid professional.
We’ll agree to disagree- he’s a former 1st rounder, has had a productive career and is better than the dozens of linebackers we’ve had here for the last 10 years .... and there’s a reason he was given the contract he has.
There's also a reason why the Rams cut him loose only one year into that contract.
He's an improvement for NYG, but that's not saying much. At a cost of $10M per, when we badly need a talent infusion and capital investment in pass rushers, I'd rather move on.
But the Rams didn’t “cut him loose”.... they received 2 draft picks for him.
And maybe the reason was financial ..and they felt like they could get by without him.... whatever the case , I think we need him.
Our problems with the roster has more to do with poor decisions on talent, than it does the money paid to these guys. Now if we’re talking foolish QB contracts or extensions, that’s something else.
And I love the way he lays the leather. He could have played with LT, Harry C and the boyz.
Our problems with the roster has more to do with poor decisions on talent, than it does the money paid to these guys. Now if we’re talking foolish QB contracts or extensions, that’s something else.
It's a symptom of poor decisions regarding veterans (pro personnel) which is where DG was previously employed by NYG. He needs to do better, especially with UFAs.
Our problems with the roster has more to do with poor decisions on talent, than it does the money paid to these guys. Now if we’re talking foolish QB contracts or extensions, that’s something else.
How can you say that with certainty?
Despite some people's beliefs, the cap does limit what teams can or can't do in free agency.
Giants have major holes at CB, major holes at S (depending on LC at least 1 maybe 2), need pass rushers, need OL help and more.
Some of that it's expected has to be fixed in FA, Ogletree is one of many, but the lower his cap commitment doesn't it stand to reason the better (or more expensive at least to remove subjectivity) free agent the Giants can add?
Hopefully the Giants can use his large, upcoming roster bonus (and game tape from the first half of this season) to squeeze some concessions from him.
While he might be "our best LB in a decade", he's certainly not worth $11.75M per season. His per season average over 2019-2021 seasons would have him as the 2nd highest paid ILB behind Kuechly and just ahead of Bobby Wagner.
I think he'd be lucky to get $8M per on the open market, though some of the deals given out always surprise me. That said, still better off cutting him and making CJ Mosley the highest paid ILB (~$12.5-13M per season)!
NYG locker room needed leadership on top of talent upgrades, no dispute there. But, I don't see him as a long term solution for a contender in a season or two. Put the dollars at pass rusher, and Collins.
NYG locker room needed leadership on top of talent upgrades, no dispute there. But, I don't see him as a long term solution for a contender in a season or two. Put the dollars at pass rusher, and Collins.
Better off just moving him to ILB than paying Ogletree that! :-)
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Is it going to affect our roster moving forward? No. Is it going to reduce our chances to pick up new FAs? No.
Our problems with the roster has more to do with poor decisions on talent, than it does the money paid to these guys. Now if we’re talking foolish QB contracts or extensions, that’s something else.
How can you say that with certainty?
Despite some people's beliefs, the cap does limit what teams can or can't do in free agency.
Giants have major holes at CB, major holes at S (depending on LC at least 1 maybe 2), need pass rushers, need OL help and more.
Some of that it's expected has to be fixed in FA, Ogletree is one of many, but the lower his cap commitment doesn't it stand to reason the better (or more expensive at least to remove subjectivity) free agent the Giants can add?
I haven’t seen evidence where our spending has hamstrung us to any degree. For example, if we wanted to re-sign Linval Joseph, we could have, imo. We didn’t think he was worth it, especially with Hankins here. That proved wrong, imo. Error in talent evaluation, more than money costs, imv. No one lnows for sure. We can only go by capologists like overthecap and from what I’ve seen poor choices have screwed us more than the cap