I will reiterate this team hasn't accomplished anything yet, and they are still 3 games to go before the season can really be evaluated.
But....4-5 weeks ago, the NY media was murdering him for the Ogletree trade. Goes to show you that you need to wait for a full season to play out before jumping to conclusions. Gettleman has been silent and waiting in the wings...which I'm sure isn't easy to do. Ogletree clearly needed to get more confortable with Betcher's system and I would expect his play to be very solid and even better next year as he and alot of the guys will be a full year under the new system.
Some other moves appear to be playing out as well. Kareem Martin and Josh Mauro are providing solid depth. Antonio Hamilton is playing well on specials. B.W. Webb was a solid signing and so was Michael Thomas. Even Spencer Pulley has seemed to settle in , although his future is a backup. Russel Shepard has had a nice few weeks also. Guys like Elijah Penny, Tony Lippett, Grant Haley, may prove to be valuable players going forwrad. And most importantly the 2018 draft class appears to be a really good 1st draft class for Gettleman.
This is not to say he hasn't made mistakes, obviously. Omameh was a mistake, but he let him go. Connor Barwin and Jonathan Stewart weren't the right moves in hindsight, but my guess is Gettleman will admit is follies....as no GM has a perfect track record.
Quote:
"While he might be "our best LB in a decade", he's certainly not worth $11.75M per season. His per season average over 2019-2021 seasons would have him as the 2nd highest paid ILB behind Kuechly and just ahead of Bobby Wagner."
NYG locker room needed leadership on top of talent upgrades, no dispute there. But, I don't see him as a long term solution for a contender in a season or two. Put the dollars at pass rusher, and Collins.
Better off just moving him to ILB than paying Ogletree that! :-)
I know many want to move him to LB, but he's not a LB.
Quote:
In comment 14213146 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Is it going to affect our roster moving forward? No. Is it going to reduce our chances to pick up new FAs? No.
Our problems with the roster has more to do with poor decisions on talent, than it does the money paid to these guys. Now if we’re talking foolish QB contracts or extensions, that’s something else.
How can you say that with certainty?
Despite some people's beliefs, the cap does limit what teams can or can't do in free agency.
Giants have major holes at CB, major holes at S (depending on LC at least 1 maybe 2), need pass rushers, need OL help and more.
Some of that it's expected has to be fixed in FA, Ogletree is one of many, but the lower his cap commitment doesn't it stand to reason the better (or more expensive at least to remove subjectivity) free agent the Giants can add?
I haven’t seen evidence where our spending has hamstrung us to any degree. For example, if we wanted to re-sign Linval Joseph, we could have, imo. We didn’t think he was worth it, especially with Hankins here. That proved wrong, imo. Error in talent evaluation, more than money costs, imv. No one lnows for sure. We can only go by capologists like overthecap and from what I’ve seen poor choices have screwed us more than the cap
How about losing out on Norwell to the Jags?
and then shifting to Solder.
I have no idea how Norwell has played or who would have been the Giants LT or if it would have made the Giants better, but you only need to look back to this past off-season to see how less cap room than another team led to the Giants missing out on a targeted FA.
I am sure there are tons of examples, many we don't (and shouldn't) hear about.
Yea, I was being facetious.
Unfortunately I think we're going to end up giving him something like 5 yrs/$60M (with $20-30M gtd) and will quickly have buyers remorse like the Rams did with Ogletree. He's a very good SS, but I think he's closer to Tashaun Gipson ($7.2M) than Harrison Smith ($10.25M).
Personally, if the money is the same, I'd rather have Mathieu than Collins (I know their styles are completely different).
Baltimore might be a better team with Jackson running the offense, but at a crucial juncture in OT, he was injured and RGIII came in and failed. Jackson's inability to stay on the field contributed to the loss. And you might not even get a chance to watch Baltimore in the playoffs as they still have to get in them.
He's been a disappointment as well.
He's been mocked for his UFA period but in reality, I think it's very good with the exception of Omameh who he QUICKLY cut bait on and then got it right with Jamon Brown.
Solder is a very good 2-way LT for a balanced offense. Kareem Martin was signed to be a jack-knife backup OLB/rusher/special teams guy and is strong in that role. Ogletree is a good field general and valuable 3-down MLB they really needed. Michael Thomas was a GREAT pickup in the Deon Grant mold. I love what I'm seeing from Antonio Hamilton too. Penny is a great pickup. Even Pulley -while not great and not paid to be great - has quietly settled things down inside. How bout B.W. Webb and quiet role players like Bennie Fowler? Anybody noticed this Eligwe guy?
Just like the 1st time DG here, everybody he brings in is doing their job and meeting or exceeding expectations. Great job cycling through players and cutting the dead wood and the team has righted the ship. And he'd found pieces that are not only good on their own but appear to fit well together. He's a good GM and he's showing that here. Can't wait to see what the team looks like after another offseason. I appreciate how diligent and relentless he's been rebuilding this putrid roster quickly while also enduring chemotherpy. Much respect!
But, handing A money to B/B+ talent is hard to watch. Eventually, it will limit us under a finite salary cap.
Quote:
I switched off the Giants game yesterday around the second quarter to watch Baltimore and Kansas City, and I was glad I did. It still shows that Jackson only has a few start under his belt, but Baltimore is a better team with him running the offense instead of Flacco. With a running QB (or QBs) and a coach committed to running the ball creatively, you can do a lot of damage in this league. Watch Baltimore in these playoffs. They can go anywhere and beat anyone.
Baltimore might be a better team with Jackson running the offense, but at a crucial juncture in OT, he was injured and RGIII came in and failed. Jackson's inability to stay on the field contributed to the loss. And you might not even get a chance to watch Baltimore in the playoffs as they still have to get in them.
Keep up FMIC. That's why teams have to draft multiple very good mobile QBs and really commit to it. Lamar Jackson was just Phase I of Baltimore's brilliant strategy!
His FA signings in Carolina were very reasonable contracts and he cut bait on overpriced vets.
That's why judging him on what has happened in 2018 in quite unfair.
He's been a disappointment as well.
So a serendipitous lack of cap room prevented the Giants from making one mistake and forced a potential different mistake.
My point was less about results, more about process.
It was clear the Giants wanted Norwell, and it was clear the Jags deeper pockets forced the Giants to pivot to Solder. If we believe all we read on this topic.
It may have worked out to the Giants benefit. Especially if Norwell is awful next year too and Solder improves, but it doesn't change the facts.
You can see what's happened this year there. And I expect the new owner, Tepper will clean house in the offseason. Rivera will be fired, Hurney will once again be let go as GM and he'll start putting his stamp on the team.
We talk about Mara being loyal, but Richardson brought a guy who was failing for a few years as GM, Hurney, back. And the results have been predictable.
tepper won't stand for that.
He's been mocked for his UFA period but in reality, I think it's very good with the exception of Omameh who he QUICKLY cut bait on and then got it right with Jamon Brown.
Solder is a very good 2-way LT for a balanced offense. Kareem Martin was signed to be a jack-knife backup OLB/rusher/special teams guy and is strong in that role. Ogletree is a good field general and valuable 3-down MLB they really needed. Michael Thomas was a GREAT pickup in the Deon Grant mold. I love what I'm seeing from Antonio Hamilton too. Penny is a great pickup. Even Pulley -while not great and not paid to be great - has quietly settled things down inside. How bout B.W. Webb and quiet role players like Bennie Fowler? Anybody noticed this Eligwe guy?
Just like the 1st time DG here, everybody he brings in is doing their job and meeting or exceeding expectations. Great job cycling through players and cutting the dead wood and the team has righted the ship. And he'd found pieces that are not only good on their own but appear to fit well together. He's a good GM and he's showing that here. Can't wait to see what the team looks like after another offseason. I appreciate how diligent and relentless he's been rebuilding this putrid roster quickly while also enduring chemotherpy. Much respect!
Solder is a B signing if he maintains his solid play. Still paid elite money for a very good player.
Kareem Martin is a great example of why 4 guys at $4M per season are not equal to one elite player (Mack, Von Miller, etc). Solid, much needed depth for this team, but ideally a team can get comparable production from mid-late round picks (Carter looks on his way to being at least that good).
Stewart was an awful signing, right up there with Omameh.
I think DG did well with all his trades (JPP, Ogletree, Snacks, Apple) and would probably give him a B+ overall on them. I'd still rather see Ogletree a 1 year stop gap than the ILB next year at $11.75M.
Webb is an A+ and Thomas was a solid pickup.
Some of these other guys (Penny, Pulley, Eligwe, etc) are bottom of the roster depth and while important to the teams overall success (especially the younger ones with some upside like Haley, Penny), they contribute less to a GMs overall "grade" than the big $ players (IMO).
His FA signings in Carolina were very reasonable contracts and he cut bait on overpriced vets.
That's why judging him on what has happened in 2018 in quite unfair.
I agree with that. The Giants basically had to sign either Norwell or Solder and then still had to draft an OL in the top 2 rounds just to have a mediocre OL. They basically had to build an entire OL from scratch in one offseason.
And let me say this right now:
If given the chance to reverse the Solder deal right now, I wouldn't. Maybe I'm in the minority but I've been impressed with his play - he was new to the team and injured early in the year AND the rest of the line was incompetent.
The last few weeks he's been outstanding. I'm fine with the deal in the context of the entire OL.
And let me say this right now:
If given the chance to reverse the Solder deal right now, I wouldn't. Maybe I'm in the minority but I've been impressed with his play - he was new to the team and injured early in the year AND the rest of the line was incompetent.
The last few weeks he's been outstanding. I'm fine with the deal in the context of the entire OL.
I was agreeing for the most part. Though I'd grade him as more "solid" (your 2nd post) than "very good" (your 1st). Two of his 3 biggest signings (Omameh and Stewart) were enormous flops, the latter of which even the worst posters on BBI predicted!
Exactly. And if this doesn't lead to a Championship (which it obviously will not), it will have been a failure.
Have you been enjoying Barkley's all-pro performance thus far Dave?
And we're still 5-8 and going nowhere.
When the roster is in a terrible state, it is a lose-lose scenario.
Have you been enjoying Barkley's all-pro performance thus far Dave?
5-8? It's not doom and gloom if it's true, stalker.
What's my load taste like?
That's very yucky.
Anyway, flip a coin and the Giants are 7-6 and playing for the division in a few weeks.
Also, lost on me how we are "going nowhere". I see improvement, especially along the OL.
it's just narrow-minded and lazy bullshit from people who like to talk themselves into believing things aren't as bad as they actually are.
That's very yucky.
Anyway, flip a coin and the Giants are 7-6 and playing for the division in a few weeks.
Also, lost on me how we are "going nowhere". I see improvement, especially along the OL.
We didn't lose on coin flips...we lost on incompetence.
You see improvement against teams in disarray with backup quarterbacks. You also see that it's about as difficult to go 2-14 as it is 14-2.
I don't think we're learning anything particularly relevant with regards to next year. And even if we are, enormous QB questions loom that will likely extend into contract time for Barkley, as well as a new GM and possibly new head coach.
When I look at the Giants I see a sailboat on a windless ocean. Just passing the time.
It's razor thin.
Also, Terps. Were you watching KC-Baltimore late yesterday afternoon. What are your thoughts on Lamar Jackson being unable to finish the game and RGIII not able to step in without a drop off. Not sarcastic but isn't this your model for success?
And I love the way he lays the leather. He could have played with LT, Harry C and the boyz.
So he'd be useless in a Super Bowl?
Weird take.
Should say, "I don't agree"
I guess I misjudged last year. Our miserable record was just poor coaching and players not performing. So I really should have ignored the infinite number of key injuries we had. Outstanding.
I don't know how to evaluate this team lately.
--We beat a 49ers team who started an undrafted, practice
roster QB and has no running game.
--We held on to beat a Tampa team that started
FitzTragic, a QB who hits just as many DBs in stride as
WRs. Who was then replaced by another turnover machine.
And the Bucs are a historically bad defense.
--Then yesterday we beat a Skins team, crushed by
injuries everywhere, who started Mark Sanchez, one of
the worst QBs ever drafted in the first round since
Ryan Leaf.
--The win over the Bears was decent, but even that is a
distorted because Chase Daniels started.
So the season has sort of evened-out. And we're likely where we should be - a team 4 games under .500 and on the verge of another double digit loss season.
As for Gettleman, I openly admit I disliked the hire and still think he was the wrong man for the job. He was just fortunate to be Accorsi's friend, and that carried immense weight.
I give him a TBD. Barkley is a great talent, has a huge entertainment factor like OBJ and that provides some consolation prize to some fans, but I just don't like investing high picks in that position. I do like Carter. Hernandez is a good one trick pony, but needs more refining in the pass game.
It's razor thin.
Also, Terps. Were you watching KC-Baltimore late yesterday afternoon. What are your thoughts on Lamar Jackson being unable to finish the game and RGIII not able to step in without a drop off. Not sarcastic but isn't this your model for success?
I did. I turned off our farce of a game around the second quarter to watch that one.
Jackson (and his ability to extend plays) was a huge reason they were even in the game. Yeah he missed the last play, but so what? If not for him that play never happens. If Flacco starts that game the Chiefs win by 20.
You're also being a little disingenuous. Jackson missed one play...and that play was 3rd and a mile. And Griffin actually made a great throw on what could have been PI on the Chiefs.
That was big boy football being played in Kansas City yesterday by both teams in large part because of their mobile quarterbacks. Playoff football...not the irrelevance we saw at FedEx.
I guess I misjudged last year. Our miserable record was just poor coaching and players not performing. So I really should have ignored the infinite number of key injuries we had. Outstanding.
I don't know how to evaluate this team lately.
--We beat a 49ers team who started an undrafted, practice
roster QB and has no running game.
--We held on to beat a Tampa team that started
FitzTragic, a QB who hits just as many DBs in stride as
WRs. Who was then replaced by another turnover machine.
And the Bucs are a historically bad defense.
--Then yesterday we beat a Skins team, crushed by
injuries everywhere, who started Mark Sanchez, one of
the worst QBs ever drafted in the first round since
Ryan Leaf.
--The win over the Bears was decent, but even that is a
distorted because Chase Daniels started.
So the season has sort of evened-out. And we're likely where we should be - a team 4 games under .500 and on the verge of another double digit loss season.
As for Gettleman, I openly admit I disliked the hire and still think he was the wrong man for the job. He was just fortunate to be Accorsi's friend, and that carried immense weight.
I give him a TBD. Barkley is a great talent, has a huge entertainment factor like OBJ and that provides some consolation prize to some fans, but I just don't like investing high picks in that position. I do like Carter. Hernandez is a good one trick pony, but needs more refining in the pass game.
Injuries aren't an excuse when we win, but are an excuse for Eli when we're 3-13. You should know this BW.
He didn't reenter for the final two plays.
So in effect, at the game's most important juncture, he was on the sideline injured.
Awesome
Missed two plays that were 3rd and 22 and 4th and 22. Hardly the reason they lost the game, as the odds were already fairly low of conversion.
He was a big part of the reason they were even in a position to win.
Lots and lots of pride in having the "best so-and-so in the league" or calling a guy "generational" for the millionth time.
Who cares? The team sucks!
Quote:
You're also being a little disingenuous. Jackson missed one play...and that play was 3rd and a mile. And Griffin actually made a great throw on what could have been PI on the Chiefs.
He didn't reenter for the final two plays.
So in effect, at the game's most important juncture, he was on the sideline injured.
Awesome
Again, disingenuous.
And if you watched the game, he was a handful. And bear in mind it was only his fourth start...on the road against possibly the best team in the NFL with a big home field advantage. It was a fantastic showing.
Meanwhile my understanding is that Lauletta looked like a joke in a zero pressure environment. But hey at least our head coach mocked him for it in the media.
Yeah, we're going in a positive direction...
Ogletree has 5 ints....mainly off deflections, but he was in position to make those plays....
Mauro just had one of those games.....probably the highlight of the season for him.....
Playing against Sanchez definitely helped.....they put a qb in the game that could move in the pocket, and all of a sudden this defense went to shit....
The Giants play who are in front of them.....whether it's Sanchez, Mullins, Prescott or Brees....the offense couldn't do crap until a couple of turnovers gave them momentum....and then it looked like the Skins just gave up....
Have to give Shurm a back slap....this team has not given up.....
We play a good Titans defense next week.....Mariotta is not the best qb, but he is mobile which gives this defense fits....Andrew Luck is slinging the ball good this season......and if the Cowboys have something to play for, like a bye or home field, these will be three tough games, and give us a clearer assessment of this team....but, another victory this season and we could be picking closer to 20 than to 10.....
But at least, it's enjoyable to watch Giants football again.....a winning attitude is healthy for a team.....we will not get one of the top qb's next year, unless we sell the farm and trade up.....
Question is, if we stay with Eli, do we go all in on the OL in the draft/FAcy? After next year, I don't see the Giants signing Eli unless he has "one of those years".....
The point I'm making isn't what do mobile QB's bring to the table, it is that they have a higher propensity of getting injured, which has as much of a negative impact as the positive impact of them being on the field.
DG has his blind spots, a couple of them are very concerning to me too, however, none of that matters if the team continues to draft well and succeed at identifying bottom of the roster role players like they have with Webb, Penny and Haley. Easier said than done, we're not picking 2nd with the highest waiver priority through 2/3 of the season every year. Hopefully he cleans up some things.
Ogletree was an overpaid but reliable commodity.
IMO well worth a 4th and a 6th, just think of the players that come in those rounds. Giants got a starter.
However, just with the eyeball test, Ogletree is not close to the upper tier of LBs in this league.
Watching the Seattle LBs, Kuechly, Lee (and Vender Esch) when healthy, those players are a tier above Ogletree.
Is he paid too much? Yes, but I get why he's here.
and the Giants have thrown for under 250 yards 25 times in the last 3 seasons.
Quote:
That it's easier than ever to pass the ball in this league, so with that said, shouldn't it be easier to find a qb that can get the job done?
and the Giants have thrown for under 250 yards 25 times in the last 3 seasons.
Great, that doesn't answer my question
Let's see who the next QB is for the Giants. I hope for a mobile (enough) QB as well, a good mobile QB really does tilt the field for the offense.
We can't call them rudderless until we see what they do this year. I envision fortifying the OL and Edge pressure this year, which will be a boon for any QB.
The point I'm making isn't what do mobile QB's bring to the table, it is that they have a higher propensity of getting injured, which has as much of a negative impact as the positive impact of them being on the field.
They be in trouble, just like everyone else. In the meantime they're competing for a title and scoring points for fun.
And they didn't need to spend huge at RB and WR to do it.