I will reiterate this team hasn't accomplished anything yet, and they are still 3 games to go before the season can really be evaluated.
But....4-5 weeks ago, the NY media was murdering him for the Ogletree trade. Goes to show you that you need to wait for a full season to play out before jumping to conclusions. Gettleman has been silent and waiting in the wings...which I'm sure isn't easy to do. Ogletree clearly needed to get more confortable with Betcher's system and I would expect his play to be very solid and even better next year as he and alot of the guys will be a full year under the new system.
Some other moves appear to be playing out as well. Kareem Martin and Josh Mauro are providing solid depth. Antonio Hamilton is playing well on specials. B.W. Webb was a solid signing and so was Michael Thomas. Even Spencer Pulley has seemed to settle in , although his future is a backup. Russel Shepard has had a nice few weeks also. Guys like Elijah Penny, Tony Lippett, Grant Haley, may prove to be valuable players going forwrad. And most importantly the 2018 draft class appears to be a really good 1st draft class for Gettleman.
This is not to say he hasn't made mistakes, obviously. Omameh was a mistake, but he let him go. Connor Barwin and Jonathan Stewart weren't the right moves in hindsight, but my guess is Gettleman will admit is follies....as no GM has a perfect track record.
When the roster is in a terrible state, it is a lose-lose scenario.
Nobody would have been satisfied if they didnt try to improve the OL and LBs. There are other approaches to improve the OL besides resetting the high bar for LT salaries because the guy you really wanted signed elsewhere.
It's the same thing people murder Reese for, to the letter. Patching holes with bloated contracts to wring the last 2 years out of Eli Manning because you "have to" when you're almost 20 games under. 500 over the past 5 years.
Meanwhile my understanding is that Lauletta looked like a joke in a zero pressure environment. But hey at least our head coach mocked him for it in the media.
Yeah, we're going in a positive direction... [/quote]
I know you're chomping at the bit to add more fuel to your "Shurmur sucks" fire, but I'd watch the actual press conference video before coming to that conclusion. Shurmur was pretty measured about Lauletta, considering the performance. If he was taking a dig at anyone, it was the media who was treating Lauletta as a potential instant savior. (Watch from 4:12 onwards: https://www.giants.com/video/pat-shurmur-recaps-giants-win-over-washington)
- The offense has sucked for years
- Eli is going to be 38 in a month
- 2019 is the last year of Eli's contract
- With a new GM and coach in place, it makes sense to think about the future at QB
No one thought the Giants would be better this year with Lauletta over Eli. Unfortunately a lot of people (the front office included) thought this team was poised to compete this year and carried that mistaken mindset into their decision making.
They be in trouble, just like everyone else. In the meantime they're competing for a title and scoring points for fun.
And they didn't need to spend huge at RB and WR to do it.
I'm sure you'd be happy with a WR who dropped in the draft because of a domestic abuse arrest, a TE who was suspended for a year in college, and a RB videotaped shoving a woman around. When you're willing to take on people like that, you don't need to "spend huge".
The point is - eventually - NFL QBs need to be able to drop back, read a defense and deliver an accurate throw on time, under pressure. All the ability in the world won't save you from that fact and I made the same point RG3's rookie year. It's all good until there's a book on you and you have to prove you can stay healthy longterm. TBD on Jackson.
Hard to believe a Giants fan would turn off their best performance in years and fail to recognize the team's improving.
2. Will Hernandez has been solid & BJ Hill has been even better. This looks like a very nice draft thus far.
3. Say what you will about Eli, but I’m happy he’s gotten some wins. He was teetering very close to dipping below .500 has a NFL starter. He still may, but he has stabilized it a bit over the last 5 weeks. I don’t want Eli getting mocked to finish his career. I’m happy for him.
4. 5-8 is not good, but it’s also not 2-11. They’ve at least crawled back to towards the middle a bit which I think does have some value.
This offseason will present some very interesting decisions. I’ll admit, I don’t like investing so much money into RB + WR. I value Barkley much more than Beckham. I’d be open to trading Beckham for picks & running the offense through Saquon. Build up the trenches & let the run set up play action where Eli is best. That is what winning looks like with Eli at this stage in my opinion.
- The offense has sucked for years
- Eli is going to be 38 in a month
- 2019 is the last year of Eli's contract
- With a new GM and coach in place, it makes sense to think about the future at QB
No one thought the Giants would be better this year with Lauletta over Eli. Unfortunately a lot of people (the front office included) thought this team was poised to compete this year and carried that mistaken mindset into their decision making.
Under your model shouldn't it be fairly easy to replace the QB? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't your solution be to take a QB along the lines of Jackson and back him up with someone cheap who has similar skill sets? In other words, keep the QB position low under the cap and then use that cap savings to build up the supporting cast?
Not sure I've remembered correctly, so that's why I'm asking.
If so, then why aren't the Giants in good position to do exactly that next year? Why can't they let Eli go and use the cap savings to get a couple of cheap mobile QB's and fill in other holes through FA?
The Chiefs are doing the right things with guys like Hill and Kelce (and Hunt), but the Giants are a joke for not trading their piece of shit WR who showboats!
What were people's actual expectations for this team this year?
Shouldn't realistic expectation be improvement? Arrow pointing up? Better than last year? Reason to believe we can be better going forward?
If the Giants finish 7-9 or somehow win out and get to 8-8 after a 1-7 start, isn't that a positive? That they continued to play hard for this coach and believe in his messages to them and buy into what he's putting out there for them?
The Giants were literally unwatchable last year for basically the entire season. They looked similarly unwatchable through the first half of this year at several points.
Now the offense is finally starting to figure it out. We've won 4 of 5 and if you think there are easy wins in the NFL, go ask the Steelers what they think about that or talk to the Chargers about how they barely beat Jeff Driskol and the AJ Green-less Bengals.
The Giants were never going to flip their W/L record in a single year. But if we go from 3-13 to 7-9 in one year, I'd say that's something to build on.
Or we could just find reasons to keep complaining on a daily basis and be miserable and not enjoy anything. To each their own, I guess.
The Chicago win matters, but we've seen wins like that before. Last year's unwatchable team upset the broncos on the road in primetime.
The Redskins didn't look like they had anything to play for yesterday, but they did. And their defense has been decent this year. We had 40 points on the board with ease... and without our best WR AND our backup QB playing most of the 4th quarter. If we kept our foot on the gas, we might have dropped 50+
I just think if people had expectations beyond this for the 2018-19 season, they were certain to be let down. It's hard to imagine a series of roster moves in the one offseason that passed that would have had this team winning 10+ games. And yet, we've been right there in the majority of the games we've lost and have a good chance to close out this campaign on a high note.
I think most people understand that there's still work to be done - a lot of it. But you don't go from point A to point B in one step. This was always going to be a process that required a little time. This roster was a fucking mess and there's still a long way to go. But we've got to start somewhere and I think there's a different feeling around the Giants now than there was a month ago.
The Chicago win matters, but we've seen wins like that before. Last year's unwatchable team upset the broncos on the road in primetime.
You're discounting wins against "bad" opponents saying it isn't a sign of improvement.
Have you forgotten the SF game last year?
And then they win a few games & its “well, they are just beating lousy QB’s”
I know each season is different, but I'll be feeling somewhat upbeat if finish strong, which it looks like we're doing. Hopefully we'll build on it next year.
This draft class appears to be good. Barkley, Hernandez, & Hill have all been good.
3. Say what you will about Eli, but I’m happy he’s gotten some wins. He was teetering very close to dipping below .500 has a NFL starter. He still may, but he has stabilized it a bit over the last 5 weeks. I don’t want Eli getting mocked to finish his career. I’m happy for him.
Once we stop worrying about Eli’s feelings and his stats and his freaks, we’ll finally be able to build a contender.
Quote:
3. Say what you will about Eli, but I’m happy he’s gotten some wins. He was teetering very close to dipping below .500 has a NFL starter. He still may, but he has stabilized it a bit over the last 5 weeks. I don’t want Eli getting mocked to finish his career. I’m happy for him.
Once we stop worrying about Eli’s feelings and his stats and his freaks, we’ll finally be able to build a contender.
His freaks? What are you insinuating?
That's when the decision has to get made. Two shots to fix it. FA and the draft.
Yep the number one thing Guy 1 should be evaluated on was how much he spent to partially fix the problem in FA (when the market sets the price on FA)
Decisions get made with:
- imperfect timing
- imperfect information
- no way to tell what other teams may offer
- no ability to tell the future
- no way to tell who would be even available in the draft ( draft board was likely not even finished at the time).
- few options available in FA
- might have to protect the blind side of a brand new franchise QB (who knew weeks before the draft?)
But he surely he sucks because how much he spent of money that is not ours compared to how much we claim he could have paid. What else was he supposed to do? Risk the next years to save a few bucks?
Thats just one example of torturing the data into confessing DG sucks and the team is badly led (which might be true...but i doubt we could tell until 2021).
I mean do we praise Jerry Reese for saving money by not being able to spell linebacker or 3rd round?
I thought the goal was to take chances to field a winning team. Is there a Lombardi for most cost effective OL? Was there a sure thing starting LT in the last draft? This one?
I submit that "cost effective FA deal for a LT" is close to an oxymoron.
fans feelings on a player and worrying about his stats impact the decisions made?
What fucking pipe dream do some of you subscribe to?
What would have made it a success? Did you think we were going to go from 3 wins to NFCE Champs and the Playoffs in one offseason?
If you did, that's your fault - not the Giants'
But the fact so many ripped him for taking Barkley, even well after we have seen the initial returns on him being as good as advertised, he really should be given a pat on the back just for that selection.
But it went against so many people's wishes that they have dug their heels in.
This wasn't going to be a quick turnaround, yet, amazingly, it actually is quickly turning around. Still not good enough.
I know the majority of the time we've been at or near the very bottom, but it isn't like we're a model of health.
Is the team improving or not? What were your expectations coming in? Playoffs? Super Bowl champs?
I do however like how he's not afraid to change up what isn't working. Sending under performing guys packing. No more draft status scholarship.
Too early to make an assessment IMHO. Will review in about 3 years. The draftees looks promising though.
I do however like how he's not afraid to change up what isn't working. Sending under performing guys packing. No more draft status scholarship.
Too early to make an assessment IMHO. Will review in about 3 years. The draftees looks promising though.
I guess it isn't too early to make an assessment - he sucks until he finds a duplicate of Victor Cruz.
For a franchise that has NEVER had back-to-back winning seasons, Gettleman compiled a record of 40-23-1 during his time as GM of the Panthers
17 games over .500.
But he needs a Victor Cruz on his resume??
What kind of bullshit comment is that?
For a franchise that has NEVER had back-to-back winning seasons, Gettleman compiled a record of 40-23-1 during his time as GM of the Panthers
People do talk about it. There were plenty of debates at the time he was hired that people pinned all the Panthers success on Gettleman, when in fact he inherited a franchise QB who already had two years of development, a defense that had been in the top 10 in 2012, and had a roster sprinkled with pro bowl players.
Sounds fair.
They've been absolutely stellar without him, too.
Some of the narratives here are strange as fucking hell.
They're just the Panthers. Alternating good years and bad years is what they are.
Interesting you didn't post their record the 4 years preceding Gettleman:
8-8, 2-14, 6-10, 7-9
Yep. Clearly just alternating good and bad seasons....
Interesting you didn't post their record the 4 years preceding Gettleman:
8-8, 2-14, 6-10, 7-9
Yep. Clearly just alternating good and bad seasons....
If you're in Charlotte, then you know why the team was bad . Why pretend as if it's relevant to this topic? Did Dave Gettleman lift them up out of incompetence, or was the franchise transitioning from the end of Jake Delhomme's career, to finding the next QB?
The real question to ask is why do people try to diminish what he had done? It is almost like some have made up their mind about him and any credit given has to be discredited.
I really don't understand this type of thinking.
His time here is still under evaluation, but he did a very good job in Carolina.
if we had beaten the top teams in the league these last few weeks it would have been used as evidence of how much we have improved.so the fact that we've only beaten backup quarterbacks and reeling teams also should be considered. I see no reason to make any clean memes about the season 3 weeks to go. Let's look at the last three games and then judge the season as a whole.
Who cares about pundits? Not sure why that should have anything to do with having reasonable expectations. 8-8 isn't even totally out of the question right now.
Favorable schedule? Well, you can call it that - doesn't make it factual. Show me actual proof of that otherwise it's a useless comment to add.
The Giants have injuries just like everyone else does and they also traded away 2 defensive starters for picks.
If the Giants manage a 7-8 win season after a 1-7 start, then yes, I think it's fair to say this was a step in the right direction.
Not sure why anyone would think this was a playoff team coming off a 3 win season when we had such significant roster turnover.
We hired a new coach, have new coordinators, several new starters, new systems on both sides of the football... and you thought this should be a playoff team?
Not really sure what would have led anyone to believe that outside of wishful thinking.
Shurmur still concerns be greatly with regards to in game management, but he has weathered a storm of adversity this year. I’d rather have a coach do this early in his career as opposed to a few years in as we saw with McAdoo. McAdoo had early success & I really believe he felt it could be easily replicated in 2017, but never was able to weather the storm of adversity which led to 2-10. We never saw the adversity present itself in 2016.
At the bye, I said I wanted to see improvements & wins in the 2nd half for Shurmur. I always made the point *IF* you want to believe in this regime & see it be successful, this team needs to rattle off some wins in the 2nd half. So far so good, but it is far from over. If this team can knock the Titans & Colts out of the playoffs on the way to 7-9 / 8-8, I don’t see how this isn’t viewed as a positive off a 1-7 start.
The past two weeks we have eclipsed 30 points.
BTW, as for your new coach and so forth argument,how are the Bears doing? They were 5-11 last year and I don't recall the last winning season that they had.
IMO,Gettelman's grade as a GM is incomplete,
Which one is it and why is it too early to call it a success, but not too late to call it a failure? Your logic has just a few holes in it here...
You also didn't show how our schedule was in any way more favorable than most other teams in the league. So, I'd be interested in seeing whether or not thats actually true or just a BS anecdote you tossed into that post to try and enhance a weak stance.
Like FMiC pointed out, the injury comment was hyperbole as well. One of the "healthiest teams in Giants history" ?? Based on what? I'm not sure this team is even healthier than the 2016 team.
You're sorry my expectations are so low and seem to think they should be higher, so what should I have expected from a 3-13 football team with a 37 year old QB that underwent significant roster turnover and had a significant amount of holes that needed to be patched?
As for the Bears - well, If we'd given up a haul for a borderline generational defensive player like they did instead of trading away our starting NT and CB, I'm sure that would make a slight difference. The Bears won 2 more games than we did last year and right now, they have 3 more wins than us... and we just beat them. If you want to keep focusing on Chase Daniel and ignore that our offense fared quite a bit better against that defense than the Rams did in an effort to minimize anything remotely positive here, be my guest...
Like I said - if NYG manage to spin a 1-7 start into a 7-8 win season, I fail to see how that's not a solid step forward for this team. It doesn't mean we're there or are now a contender, but again, this is a multi-step process. This doesn't just go from bad to fixed overnight. We had far too many issues for that to be possible. You either understood that or didn't going into this season. Clearly you did not.
That's exactly what it is. Here's the order of priority:
1. Being right.
2. The Giants winning.
When the two conflict, you see what you're seeing here.
The 2014 team ended up 6-10.
The disturbing signs that we all identified with Gettleman and Shurmur haven't just gone away in the last 5 weeks. It was only 2 weeks ago that Shurmur pissed away a division game in Philly through, frankly, abject stupidity.
And go back to Gettleman's proud Luddism in the offseason...I suppose it's possible he's done a 180 and embraced best practices since then, but it seems unlikely.
I haven't seen any reason to believe that Gettleman and Shurmur are better at their jobs than we thought they were at 1-7. "They're still playing hard" is a damn low bar when we're trying to compete with what we're seeing from the elite teams in the NFL.
I think there's a fundamental cultural problem with the way the Giants operate. I've thought that for some time, and that belief isn't going to change because we've beaten 4 backup QBs on 3 bad teams in 5 weeks.