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Since people harp on QB contracts and their relative value

Britt in VA : 12/12/2018 7:20 am
Thought this was an interesting tweet:

Quote:
NFL Research
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Of the 6 highest paid QBs (based on average annual salary) in 2018, Kirk Cousins is the only one whose team is currently in playoff position



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There is no "Then you add the QB"  
Go Terps : 12/13/2018 11:34 am : link
You add the QB when the opportunity arises. You can't conjure him up out of thin air. If I were running a team I'd never stop searching for a QB no matter what my QB depth chart looked like.

It sounds quite a bit like you're trying to say that this is what the Giants are doing. It isn't.
And you're trying just as hard to say there is no other way  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 11:36 am : link
to build a team.

You can take either approach. Doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong.

They didn't like the QB value at 2, so they passed.

That's really all there is too it.

So yeah, when they feel like a. they need to and b. the value is there... "then they'll get a QB.
People are acting like there will never be another opportunity  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 11:37 am : link
to get a QB... It's irrational.
This is getting absurd.  
Ash_3 : 12/13/2018 11:44 am : link
One of our SB seasons was direct evidence of what an elite QB can do--elevate the play of everyone around him.

Now, since Eli has declined, the story is "balance", "excellence throughout the roster", "team game". Obviously the "nuanced" point combines both, but we have seen how much a great QB can consistently elevate the teams they're on. That we can't put too much blame on a QB.
RE: This is getting absurd.  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 11:45 am : link
In comment 14217231 Ash_3 said:
Quote:
One of our SB seasons was direct evidence of what an elite QB can do--elevate the play of everyone around him.

Now, since Eli has declined, the story is "balance", "excellence throughout the roster", "team game". Obviously the "nuanced" point combines both, but we have seen how much a great QB can consistently elevate the teams they're on. That we can't put too much blame on a QB.


It's not about Eli. He is the past. It's about the future and how the game is evolving, IMO.
RE: RE: This is getting absurd.  
Ash_3 : 12/13/2018 11:46 am : link
In comment 14217234 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14217231 Ash_3 said:


Quote:


One of our SB seasons was direct evidence of what an elite QB can do--elevate the play of everyone around him.

Now, since Eli has declined, the story is "balance", "excellence throughout the roster", "team game". Obviously the "nuanced" point combines both, but we have seen how much a great QB can consistently elevate the teams they're on. That we can't put too much blame on a QB.



It's not about Eli. He is the past. It's about the future and how the game is evolving, IMO.


It's hard to take anything you have to say about Eli or QBs in good faith.
Well then I guess don't respond.  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 11:47 am : link
Because it's hard to have a conversation with people that want to focus on Eli when I haven't mentioned Eli once in this entire thread, yet have given examples and explanations about building a team moving forward and drafting a replacement for Eli.

I can understand if I'm sitting here talking about building around Eli for one more run, but I'm not.
Go ahead and search this thread  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 11:49 am : link
for the word "Eli" and see how many times I mention it.

Secondly, when I do, it's a response to other people and it's about finding his replacement.
RE: Go ahead and search this thread  
Ash_3 : 12/13/2018 11:56 am : link
In comment 14217242 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
for the word "Eli" and see how many times I mention it.

Secondly, when I do, it's a response to other people and it's about finding his replacement.


Like with your statistical presentation in this case, you cherrypick and selectively frame things so you can obscure your broader history of posting. You're right I shouldn't respond and I won't in the future. I've avoided posting largely because it's the board is clustered into thoughtless critique and older posters who harp on the worst arguments so as to drown out carefully considered criticism of what has been, for the better part of a decade, a losing franchise.

Now your next move will be to say, "Oh go find me an Eli thread that I started or where I was holding a shadow debate about Eli." I'm not going to do that. If that means you win, sure, that's fine. I think there's ample evidence out there that my characterization is fair and honestly I don't care enough to comb BBI archives to support it. Enjoy the "win".
You don't have to comb the archives, just comb this thread.  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 12:00 pm : link
It's not my fault that you didn't read the entire thread and just saw my name on it and assumed that I'm advocating for Eli. That's your problem, not mine.

I think if you read the thread in context and it's entirety, you'd see me strictly talking about building the team up moving forward and how the next QB would factor in to that.

Eli is a placeholder at this point. To what degree is up for debate (not for me to debate because I don't care to, anymore), but a placeholder nonetheless.
RE: RE: QB salaries are pretty consistent with the cap...  
Dodge : 12/13/2018 12:05 pm : link
In comment 14216992 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14216938 Dodge said:


Quote:


Since 1994, max cap hit for a QB that year vs. the salary cap of that year.





Looking at your graph, I would say that starting around 2008 QB salaries have not become proportionate to the salary cap. What percentage of the cap should QB salaries on the second contract account for? 20% should be fair, but the top end of the market exceeds that. Next year, the cap is estimated to be $190M. So with next year's cap, a second contract should be in the $19M/yr range, but we know they exceed that already.


That's the max cap number for each year. It's not the average of the top 5 which would probably be a better number but I don't have that data at my finger tips.
RE: People are acting like there will never be another opportunity  
Go Terps : 12/13/2018 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14217217 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
to get a QB... It's irrational.


What's irrational is the way the narrative has flipped since we picked a RB over a QB. In March 2018 the consensus view was that it was harder to find a QB than a RB. That view was universal.

And before you tell me how life changing Barkley has been, note that he has 160 yards more and a lower YPA than Phillip Lindsay, an undrafted free agent out of Colorado State.

As ever, if the Giants drafted an inanimate carbon rod there would be people defending the move.
Lindsay is a nice story.  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 12:15 pm : link
Using Lindsay as an example of how easy it is to find a great RB without using a high pick on him would be like me using Russell Wilson or Kirk Cousins as an example of how easy it is to find a QB in later rounds.
I can understand if Darnold, Allen, or Rosen....  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 12:17 pm : link
were lighting the world on fire right now, but they're not. They haven't given any of their respective franchises anything other than hope that they're good.

And hope only lasts so long. Whether they give them something more tangible remains to be seen.
OK...  
Go Terps : 12/13/2018 12:23 pm : link
Alvin Kamara
Nick Chubb
James Conner
Kareem Hunt
David Johnson
Chris Carson
Matt Breida
Aaron Jones
Kerryon Johnson
Austin Ekeler

That's guys this year alone that have played well at running back...most of them on teams that have rushed for more yards than we have. None of them is even a first round pick.

And then you can look a RBs in our own recent history:

Ahmad Bradshaw
Brandon Jacobs
Derek Ward
Tiki Barber

BBI gets amnesia when the Giants do something that is stupid. It gets amnesia, and then it bends the narrative to fit what the Giants are doing.

What the Giants did, and are doing, is fucking stupid.
Britt  
Go Terps : 12/13/2018 12:24 pm : link
The Giants aren't lighting the world on fire with Barkley. To the contrary, they have been garbage.
RE: Lindsay is a nice story.  
ajr2456 : 12/13/2018 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14217306 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Using Lindsay as an example of how easy it is to find a great RB without using a high pick on him would be like me using Russell Wilson or Kirk Cousins as an example of how easy it is to find a QB in later rounds.


Kamara
Hunt
Conner
Lindsay
Carson
Johnson
Chubb

All in the top 15 in rushing and aren’t first round picks. Right outside the top 15:

Breida, Jones, Howard
But increasingly it doesn't seem to matter that the team is garbage  
Go Terps : 12/13/2018 12:26 pm : link
What seems to be growing in importance is having a "generational" this or that.
They've scored 30 points in 3 of their last 4....  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 12:29 pm : link
and 40 points in one of those.

Something we haven't had in 3 years.

Secondly, the Giants haven't had a 1000 yard rusher since 2012.

Finally, Saquon is also going to be pushing 1000 yards as a RECEIVER!

So Phillip Lindsay being a 1000 yard rusher as a rookie and going undrafted is nice.

Saquon is breaking all kinds of records and is going to have over 2000 yards from scrimmage.

The Giants are trending up. And it's largely on the back of Saquon Barkley.

If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.
Trending up my ass  
Go Terps : 12/13/2018 12:30 pm : link
Every year it's the same bullshit.
The Giants can only trend up  
Go Terps : 12/13/2018 12:33 pm : link
When you've sucked for 6 years that's the only direction to go.

How is it that people not only aren't angry, but continue to be willing to give this team such a large benefit of the doubt?
Because there is improvement.....  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 12:34 pm : link
The new regime has done something in one year that Jerry Reese couldn't do since 2012....

Given us a running game. And it's opening everything else up.
Are you telling me that a player....  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 12:40 pm : link
that has the potential to give your team 2000 yards from scrimmage as a dual threat every year is not something good to have?

No offense to Phillip Lindsay, but Saquon Barkley is a lot more like having Ladanian Tomlinson, Marshall Faulk, or Emmitt Smith at your disposal.
.  
Go Terps : 12/13/2018 12:45 pm : link
I'm telling you his great season hasn't made a difference. The team is 5-8 and the offense was putrid for most of the year. We're 16th in points scored despite our "generational players", and despite being in a dogshit division we are going nowhere.

I don't care if Barkley has 10000 all purpose yards for the season.
Well we'll agree to disagree that things are changing.  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 12:47 pm : link
I never saw an offensive performance like what I've seen out of the past month or so from Ben McAdoo's Giants.
This season has been a failure  
Go Terps : 12/13/2018 12:48 pm : link
If you want to put a shine on that by looking at Barkley's yardage totals that's up to you.

I'm tired of shining shit. This team doesn't deserve our benefit of the doubt. I think it's earned our intense criticism and skepticism until proven otherwise. I can't believe I'm in the minority there but I guess I've underestimated the fans' willingness to eat shit.
And what are going to do about it in the meantime?  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 12:49 pm : link
You can either focus on the positives and improvement or wallow in misery.

There is not other option because you have zero control over it.
It's entertainment, not life or death.  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 12:50 pm : link
I'm going to let them entertain me and hope they get better.
RE: QB salaries are pretty consistent with the cap...  
AcesUp : 12/13/2018 12:55 pm : link
In comment 14216938 Dodge said:
Quote:
Since 1994, max cap hit for a QB that year vs. the salary cap of that year.



Look at 2017 and 2018 though...there is a noticeably sharp trend upwards in that graph. We're only at the start too. Those numbers aren't being pushed up by the Aaron Rodgers of the league, it's Kirk Cousins and Matt Stafford. Where teams screw up is that they don't cut bait when faced with a mediocre QB entering a contract extension. Instead they pay them elite money hamstringing their ability to build the dominant roster that these QBs need to succeed.

That said, this is precisely why the ultimate goal should be to find an elite talent at QB and the only shot you have at that is through the draft. If we're talking about helping Barkley, having a cost controlled starter at QB will provide you the resources to build a dominant OL within the structure of your cap. So there are duel benefits to taking this approach at QB. The downside risk of a bust? Sure, but unless they're a Sanchez like bust, they're not killing you because their salaries are so depressed. Winston and Marriotta are busts - but they're the 28th and 29th highest paid players at their position (20m/yr cheaper than Stafford). They're actually bargains in respect to the cap.
When Dak Prescott is demanding 28 million per....  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 12:59 pm : link
and some team, likely Dallas, is going to give it to him.... Your structure is fundamentally broken.
Unfortunately, we didn't get Eli's successor from the top of the draft  
JonC : 12/13/2018 1:00 pm : link
but we got an electrifying talent to plug into the offense and really be the motor of it.

Fact is, it's going to take more than one offseason to really see if they're pointed in the right direction. The OL needs potentially three starters, we lack a #2 WR, OL depth. The defense needs LBs, CBs, and potentially two starting safeties.

That's easily another offseason and potentially two, if they don't retain Collins, OV, Ogletree, to name a few that will be under scrutiny for their contract values.
saying you shouldn't draft Player A in the 1st  
giants#1 : 12/13/2018 1:03 pm : link
because Position XYZ is "easy" to find and listing good players at that position is such a lazy argument. You can literally do that with every position. Players in the top 15 (or 30 if 2 start) at their position taken outside the 1st:

QB
Brady
Wilson
Brees
Cousins

WR - looking at the top 30 WR in yards for this season, though 6 of the top 8 were taken in the 2nd or later
Brown
Hill
Thielen
Smith-Schuster
Thomas
Adams
K Allen
Diggs
Hilton
Sanders
Woods
Boyd
Lockett
Landry
Tate
Gordon
Shepard

Pass Rushers - the elite guys are almost exclusively top 10 picks, but these players are all in the top 30 in sacks
Hunter
Lawrence
Clark
Chris Jones
Dunlap
Autry
Fackrell
Bennett
Addison
Ioannidis
Leonard
Campbell
Casey
Judon

LB - drafted in 2nd or later and top 30 in tackles:
Leonard
Smith
Alonso
Martinez
David
Littleton
Whitehead
Davis
Warner
Foster
Williamson
Hitchens
Davis
Smith
Trevathtan
Wagner
Walker
Cunningham
Kendricks
Hicks
Collins
Jack
McMillan
Brown

So clearly the only positions that should ever be drafted in the 1st are QBs and pass rushers. Can find great players at every other position in any round...
In this day and age, it is about coaching more than the QB  
BH28 : 12/13/2018 1:11 pm : link
QBs, schemes, etc work for a few years and get figured out. If the coaches aren't constantly evolving to stay ahead of the game. they are going to be exploited.

I think that has been one of the things that BB has been so good at, exploiting match-ups. Eventually everybody catches up and you need to find the next thing.

The teams that are going to be consistently successful will be because of coaching. Obviously you need to hit on your roster as well, but coaching is a big factor.
RE: .  
mrvax : 12/13/2018 1:18 pm : link
In comment 14217380 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm telling you his great season hasn't made a difference. The team is 5-8 and the offense was putrid for most of the year. We're 16th in points scored despite our "generational players", and despite being in a dogshit division we are going nowhere.

I don't care if Barkley has 10000 all purpose yards for the season.


Barkley is one of the few reasons to watch this losing team. Relax Terps. Things will get better.
RE: It's entertainment, not life or death.  
mrvax : 12/13/2018 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14217400 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I'm going to let them entertain me and hope they get better.


So true Britt. IMO, Terps should take some time away from watching the Giants and come back when things are going better. It will be better for his health.
RE: They've scored 30 points in 3 of their last 4....  
Thegratefulhead : 12/13/2018 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14217342 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and 40 points in one of those.

Something we haven't had in 3 years.

Secondly, the Giants haven't had a 1000 yard rusher since 2012.

Finally, Saquon is also going to be pushing 1000 yards as a RECEIVER!

So Phillip Lindsay being a 1000 yard rusher as a rookie and going undrafted is nice.

Saquon is breaking all kinds of records and is going to have over 2000 yards from scrimmage.

The Giants are trending up. And it's largely on the back of Saquon Barkley.

If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.
The trend will only be up if they finish well. If they get their asses kicked in the last 3 games, the recent uptrend can be explained away with circumstantial evidence, bad teams and or back up QBS. FWIW I think they win 2 of the last 3 and it is an arrow pointing up situation. I am just not ready to make that claim yet. Might as well get the rest of picture filled out before we make proclamations about the season. Barkley is great, that much is settled.
The Giants offense has lacked a real run threat since 2010....  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 1:29 pm : link
I don't care what the record says at the end of this year, the fact that we now have a run game is a massive improvement.
And that is something to build on.  
Britt in VA : 12/13/2018 1:30 pm : link
.
Until they replace 3 starters this Winter  
JonC : 12/13/2018 1:30 pm : link
and have to get it going again grin.
RE: Until they replace 3 starters this Winter  
mrvax : 12/13/2018 1:35 pm : link
In comment 14217482 JonC said:
Quote:
and have to get it going again grin.


I dunno. They need a center hopefully from the draft and a RT hopefully a free agent. Worry about upgrading Brown after that. The terrible Oline that could not run or pass block was responsible for the 1-7 start, IMO.
Figure they'll try to keep Brown on a fair deal  
JonC : 12/13/2018 1:45 pm : link
but TBD.
RE: The Giants offense has lacked a real run threat since 2010....  
Thegratefulhead : 12/13/2018 2:16 pm : link
In comment 14217478 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't care what the record says at the end of this year, the fact that we now have a run game is a massive improvement.
How was the running game after McAdoo was canned as yards/game compared to this year? 112/game vs 106/game this year. No doubt Barkley is the man, and I am only using 4 games from last year but it is still true. I hope they build the team around Barkley, the recent wins have given me hope. I do not want be a prisoner of the moment though, right after Barkley's best game as a pro. I want to let the season play out, then look at it in its entirety after a few weeks of reflection. I love Barkley, I don't want that to get confused. He was the correct pick.
I think the Giants are looking  
dep026 : 12/13/2018 2:18 pm : link
Round 1 - Edge
Round 2 - RT
Round 4 picks can be used as trading chips to find a center.
RE: I think the Giants are looking  
mrvax : 12/13/2018 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14217547 dep026 said:
Quote:
Round 1 - Edge
Round 2 - RT
Round 4 picks can be used as trading chips to find a center.


This sounds about right for NEED. However, you should use the draft, especially the first 2 rounds to go BPA.
RE: I think the Giants are looking  
giants#1 : 12/13/2018 2:48 pm : link
In comment 14217547 dep026 said:
Quote:
Round 1 - Edge
Round 2 - RT
Round 4 picks can be used as trading chips to find a center.


Rd 1 - agreed
Rd 2 - I'd say C or RT, whichever they don't get in FA
Rd 4+ - OL depth, S, LB
RE: RE: The more I watch....  
santacruzom : 12/13/2018 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14216068 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14216058 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


the more I realize a good QB can't carry a poor roster, however, a good roster can carry a poor QB.





Give me some examples were a "good roster can carry a poor QB" materialized into something big - which I'm assuming you mean a SB.

Beyond Dilfer and Eli... ;)


Come on man. Now you're just trying to activate the Flip Out Primary Directive of the Designated Eli Protectobot Mk 026.
RE: It's entertainment, not life or death.  
santacruzom : 12/13/2018 4:35 pm : link
In comment 14217400 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I'm going to let them entertain me and hope they get better.


Amen.

Not that I have any valid reason to hope that they'll share the same fate, but the Warriors come to mind a bit.

It would largely be forgotten now, but when the Warriors drafted Stephen Curry it wasn't universally regarded as a great pick. Many criticized them for adding another "undersized guard who can't defend" when they already had Monta Ellis. Even when it became apparent he could play, his personal future was clouded by injuries and the Warriors' collective future was clouded by being the Warriors. They continued to make shitty personnel mistakes even after they drafted him -- what reason was there to ever think they'd turn it around.

But then, they turned it around.

Unfortunately, it took a change in ownership and management to precipitate it. Maybe the Giants can pull a transformation off without such a change, but I'm not overly optimistic.

In the meantime I'll at least hope they'll be entertaining, just as I hoped the Warriors would be entertaining when I felt there was no hope in them being elite.
This thread seems to be started  
hassan : 12/14/2018 3:23 pm : link
in order to combat the notion that eli is a poor value or more accurately that he is uniquely being singled out for being a poor value.

But the justification for paying some of those players on the list is there. Others are just stupid contracts. The bay area teams in general outclass the Giants in dumb fairly regularly in recent years, as bad as NYG have been.

I would agree that a 'good' qb is more accessible than in the past. Paying a premium for a 'good' qb will go away at some point. Prescott is an example. How Garropolo signed such a ludicrous deal shows the 9ers incompetence.

Very good to elite qb play however, consistently done is hard to find, still seems to require investment in an early pick. Not always, not absolutely but generally speaking yes.

Some of the other discussion around perfectly timing player acquisition, I do have to agree whole heartedly with Terps. The Giants are deficient in several areas, long term qb play being one. They chose to invest in Barkley last offseason. They dont need to wait until everything else is in place to draft another qb. At their pick, if a qb has relative value that makes sense in the first round, they should most likely select that player. they may even pass again this year knowing they can get a game manager performance out of Eli this upcoming year, relative to the talent of available qbs vs what they can draft elsewhere and wait until 2020 but it has to be done soon and it has to be done irrespective of the overall state of the franchise.

The existence of other bad contracts should not change the Giants stance of getting better value from qb IMO. We will see- I doubt they touch Eli's contract.



RE: They've scored 30 points in 3 of their last 4....  
Jimmy Googs : 12/14/2018 7:40 pm : link
In comment 14217342 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and 40 points in one of those.

Something we haven't had in 3 years.

Secondly, the Giants haven't had a 1000 yard rusher since 2012.

Finally, Saquon is also going to be pushing 1000 yards as a RECEIVER!

So Phillip Lindsay being a 1000 yard rusher as a rookie and going undrafted is nice.

Saquon is breaking all kinds of records and is going to have over 2000 yards from scrimmage.

The Giants are trending up. And it's largely on the back of Saquon Barkley.

If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.


Trending up huh? While it’s finally nice to see some points on the board you might want to temper your enthusiasm as to what occurred in those games. We are flawed in so many key positions it’s comical how many different ways we could use our top couple picks in the draft.



RE: This season has been a failure  
widmerseyebrow : 12/15/2018 1:25 am : link
Year 1 of a new GM and coach inheriting a 3 win team, what was success in your view?
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