#Eagles QB Carson Wentz, dealing with a back issue, is not expected to play this week, sources say. Depending on the result, given the time of year, Wentz may not play again in 2018.
Yes, he literally got hurt running with the football - I don't think he was even touched. The same thing could have happened any time he was running. QB's are going to have to move sometimes - they aren't going to just stand in place. This stuff can happen to anyone and has nothing to do with mobility.
Eli has created all sorts of unrealistic expectations regarding QB durability. He is the anomaly. Not everyone else.
It'll take an apocalypse to get people to move off the idea
that 'mobile' qbs always get hurt but pocket qbs don't.
And people are going to point to Eli Manning's improbable health as if that is the standard by which all future QBs should be measured by, when it's patently ridiculous and unfair.
Yes, he literally got hurt running with the football - I don't think he was even touched. The same thing could have happened any time he was running. QB's are going to have to move sometimes - they aren't going to just stand in place. This stuff can happen to anyone and has nothing to do with mobility.
Eli has created all sorts of unrealistic expectations regarding QB durability. He is the anomaly. Not everyone else.
But isnt that the point? The more you run and the more extend plays - the greater the chance of injury occurs. I am not saying you should avoid these guys.... but its something that you have to prepare for.
There is nothing other than flimsy, anecdotal evidence that mobile QBs get injured and miss time significantly more than non-mobile QBs. Because that is your perception does not mean it has any basis in fact.
There is a contingent on this site that wants to avoid mobile QBs because they believe they miss time because of their mobility. It is a perceptional bias based on the Giants having an immobile QB who was always healthy. Eli's health history is an outlier, not proof.
Two players running into each other running 20 mph is more likely to be an injury than a someone tackling a QB standing in the pocket while being impeded by a 300 lb monster and all sorts of rules designed to protect pocket passers.
And there's definitely a pattern of tall limber QBs pocket passers who don't get injured often, like Mannings, Brady, Rivers, Ryan, to just name a few recent QBs with long relatively injury free qbs.
Two players running into each other running 20 mph is more likely to be an injury than a someone tackling a QB standing in the pocket while being impeded by a 300 lb monster and all sorts of rules designed to protect pocket passers.
And there's definitely a pattern of tall limber QBs pocket passers who don't get injured often, like Mannings, Brady, Rivers, Ryan, to just name a few recent QBs with long relatively injury free qbs.
You see a lot of these mobile QBs going full speed, head-on into defenders often do you? We must watch different NFL games.
the issue isn't mobility. It's QB's that rely TOO MUCH on their mobility. A QB that can scramble is fine. When he makes it a main stay every set of downs, then you have a problem.
in the pocket..twice. Big Ben hurt his ACL in the pocket. Brady in the pocket. Carson Palmer in the pocket. This list can go on forever. Give me a mobile QB that doesn't take hits for 1000 Alex.
Where are these great pocket passers coming out of college?
and the centerpiece of that team. The difference is now he has some help whereas the last few years he's had nothing. He never has good pass catchers and probably only the Jets are worse and the last few years the running game hasn't been good. The only difference is the running game is working now, but Russel Wilson is no different than he's always been, he jsut has some help. Guy has 29 TD's through 13 games, he's on pace for 35 TD's and 7 INT's.
There is no way Wentz was ready to play. He's limping on camera one day and playing a week later. When you have instability in your knee, it throws everything else off. I understand Foles isn't very good, despite a small stretch last year in the playoffs, but they really hurt themselves rushing him back about 2-3 weeks before he should have.
have encouraged running QBs, which in turn leads to more hits on the QB and, paradoxically, more QB injuries.
In the pocket, and more generally behind the line of scrimmage, the QB is protected by unique rules that don't apply to a running back. Furthermore, I can't remember a single time when a RB slid to give himself up. That's another protection QBs have that doesn't seem to be an option for other positions. (Yes, I can remember Victor Cruz and some wide receivers giving themselves up occasionally, but not sliding.)
Those protections encourage QBs to pull the ball down and run. And why not? The rules favor the QB who can run the ball. But the more they run, the more they expose themselves to hits -- not to mention non-contact injuries like Jimmy Garoppolo's knee blowout. So the rules meant to protect QBs are having the unintended consequence of causing QB injuries.
IMO, there are two issues:
1) The QB should be treated as a ball carrier, same as a RB. No special protections. Offenses should adjust their plays accordingly, and
2) Pocket passers (like Eli) have longer careers for a good reason. Running QBs are a huge advantage in the short term but their propensity for injury puts the team in the position of having to find new starting QBs more often.
mobile or immobile, Wentz is injury prone. In 2015 in College he missed half the season because of a broken wrist. In 2016, missesd basically the entire summer because of cracked ribs, 2017, Tore his ACL/LCL, and now in 2018 his back.
This is no fault of Wentz, but some guys are built durable and some guys are not. He does not appear to be one of the guys who can take much punishment without his bones giving in. Unfortunately for him, that stuff is not whether your a tough guy or not, it is just the luck of the draw. Eli was built durable, Romo and Wentz were not. Just random stuff (and I agree while the number of hits you take is obviously a factor there is going to be injuries to both types of qbs-pocket passers and mobility guys).
in the pocket..twice. Big Ben hurt his ACL in the pocket. Brady in the pocket. Carson Palmer in the pocket. This list can go on forever. Give me a mobile QB that doesn't take hits for 1000 Alex.
Didnt Romo get hurt in a preseason game scrambling and get crunched? Its been a few years and my memory isnt good... haha
There is no way Wentz was ready to play. He's limping on camera one day and playing a week later. When you have instability in your knee, it throws everything else off. I understand Foles isn't very good, despite a small stretch last year in the playoffs, but they really hurt themselves rushing him back about 2-3 weeks before he should have.
This I agree with 100%. His stats dont say it... but I dont think hes even 50% of the player he was last year.
in the pocket..twice. Big Ben hurt his ACL in the pocket. Brady in the pocket. Carson Palmer in the pocket. This list can go on forever. Give me a mobile QB that doesn't take hits for 1000 Alex.
Didnt Romo get hurt in a preseason game scrambling and get crunched? Its been a few years and my memory isnt good... haha
He had 3 major injuries, 2 of which happened in the pocket(one against the giants). He broke his collerbone on hits in the pocket twice. The back injury which put him out of his misery was out of the pocket.
RE: RE: The Eagles made a huge mistake by the way.
There is no way Wentz was ready to play. He's limping on camera one day and playing a week later. When you have instability in your knee, it throws everything else off. I understand Foles isn't very good, despite a small stretch last year in the playoffs, but they really hurt themselves rushing him back about 2-3 weeks before he should have.
This I agree with 100%. His stats dont say it... but I dont think hes even 50% of the player he was last year.
Yeah, it's been highlighted a bunch of times. He isn't planting on the injured leg and he's not able to cut in that direction. He's a shell of himself and like RGMe, it will have longterm ramifications.
in the pocket..twice. Big Ben hurt his ACL in the pocket. Brady in the pocket. Carson Palmer in the pocket. This list can go on forever. Give me a mobile QB that doesn't take hits for 1000 Alex.
Didnt Romo get hurt in a preseason game scrambling and get crunched? Its been a few years and my memory isnt good... haha
He had 3 major injuries, 2 of which happened in the pocket(one against the giants). He broke his collerbone on hits in the pocket twice. The back injury which put him out of his misery was out of the pocket.
Ok that makes sense now. I know Boley was one of the players that got him in the pocket. But I remember seeing the one with his back and said to myself... Tony Romos career just ended.
I believe he never missed a game but one. And that one was with the Giants when he was benched which ended his consecutive start streak when he was on his way out from the Giants.
The Eagles were the other team that ended Romo's season
and as mentioned above it was a normal pass play in the pocket.
Re: Tannehill (and Deshaun Watson and Jimmy G) - i think i heard the other day that Brady wears a knee brace just because... more QBs should think about doing so. Rodgers did for 8 games or so this year and then ditched it... even though we haven't seen any improvement in his passing or scrambling game since that time. Seems like one of those things more should be doing and they'd likely eventually get used to throwing with.
Mariota isnt an example of anything - in his case, he simply holds onto the ball far too long.
Bradford - an example of a stationary QB who couldnt stay healthy anyway.
Conversely... Chad Pennington's arm and career were never the same after he slid too late on a scramble in Buffalo a few years into his career.
You tried to diminish the benefit of mobility in a quarterback during the game thread Sunday Night, after Wilson threw a ridiculous interception right before half.
I meant to ask you then, but I ll do it now. Were you trying to make the point that Wilson s mobility is not an asset for him, or that it doesnt allow him to make plays Eli cant
Inask because if I remember correctly I think the implied meaning of the post was a response to the criticism Eli received at the end of the first half against the Eagles for a very untimely interception.
All quarterbacks make bad plays, mobile and immobile. But your attempt to paint mobility as a non asset, because Eli has little, is silly.
You tried to diminish the benefit of mobility in a quarterback during the game thread Sunday Night, after Wilson threw a ridiculous interception right before half.
I meant to ask you then, but I ll do it now. Were you trying to make the point that Wilson s mobility is not an asset for him, or that it doesnt allow him to make plays Eli cant
Inask because if I remember correctly I think the implied meaning of the post was a response to the criticism Eli received at the end of the first half against the Eagles for a very untimely interception.
All quarterbacks make bad plays, mobile and immobile. But your attempt to paint mobility as a non asset, because Eli has little, is silly.
I dont know if I was making fun of his mobility. It was a horrid play by him. Much like Elis throw was horrid.
My comment was to mock posters who said Elis INT was a game changer when it simply isnt or wasnt. Because Wilsons was just as bad of a play if not worse and it didnt affect Seattle one iota.
else, the nuance is important as captured by bradshaw44:
Quote:
People need to realize
bradshaw44 : 3:05 pm : link : reply
the issue isn't mobility. It's QB's that rely TOO MUCH on their mobility. A QB that can scramble is fine. When he makes it a main stay every set of downs, then you have a problem.
This is the key. As absurd as it is to say that all mobile QB's get injured is the flip side that injuries to mobile QB's are overstated. We've seen seasons derailed because the QB gets hurt, often while trying to make a play.
Mobility is an asset. Being a rushing QB is often a liability in the long-term.
I believe he never missed a game but one. And that one was with the Giants when he was benched which ended his consecutive start streak when he was on his way out from the Giants.
He was a smart QB. As opposed to a running QB he was known as a scrambler. He scrambled to find a passing lane, NOT to run. He was an expert at protecting his body as best as humanly possible
Is not a running QB but hes mobile, rushing for 135 first downs and 19 TDs in his career vs 56 first downs and 6 TDs for Eli, not to mention all the extra time he bought on other plays by avoiding the rush. Montana Young Rodgers Wilson Elway were all super bowl winners who were not afraid to pull the ball down and run.
Whether or not QBs get hurt outside the pocket is irrelevant. The issue is its in their nature to hold onto the ball as long as possible and extend plays. Sometimes that wows Joe Public with nice plays, other times it results in injury. These guys have missed time just in the last two seasons:
Wentz
Watson
Luck
Cam
Lamar Jackson
Josh Allen
Alex Smith
Tennehill
Rodgers
Trubisky
Marriotta
Darnold
Garapolo
Blake Bortles
Ben Roethlisberger
Tyrod Taylor
Thats what, half the leagues starting QBs? If youre one of the people who subscribe to the health above all theory, why would you want a mobile QB who is substantially more likely to get hurt? How would the Giants gain an edge with a mobile QB when just about everyone else in the league has one? For the guys worried about the cap, how smart is it to give insane franchise QB money to a guy who is all but guaranteed to miss games and potentially derail seasons?
Is not a running QB but hes mobile, rushing for 135 first downs and 19 TDs in his career vs 56 first downs and 6 TDs for Eli, not to mention all the extra time he bought on other plays by avoiding the rush. Montana Young Rodgers Wilson Elway were all super bowl winners who were not afraid to pull the ball down and run.
Good list. Favre, too. Underrated mover.
Notables as well - Gannon, Hoss, Garcia, Brunnell...
the issue isn't mobility. It's QB's that rely TOO MUCH on their mobility. A QB that can scramble is fine. When he makes it a main stay every set of downs, then you have a problem.
Is not a running QB but hes mobile, rushing for 135 first downs and 19 TDs in his career vs 56 first downs and 6 TDs for Eli, not to mention all the extra time he bought on other plays by avoiding the rush. Montana Young Rodgers Wilson Elway were all super bowl winners who were not afraid to pull the ball down and run.
Good list. Favre, too. Underrated mover.
Notables as well - Gannon, Hoss, Garcia, Brunnell...
Montana ... a scrambler? Everything is relative I guess ... did Staubach win a super bowl? He was a bit of a scrambler - "Rodger the Dodger" .... If Montana was a scrambler than Thiesman belongs on that list.
Is not a running QB but hes mobile, rushing for 135 first downs and 19 TDs in his career vs 56 first downs and 6 TDs for Eli, not to mention all the extra time he bought on other plays by avoiding the rush. Montana Young Rodgers Wilson Elway were all super bowl winners who were not afraid to pull the ball down and run.
Good list. Favre, too. Underrated mover.
Notables as well - Gannon, Hoss, Garcia, Brunnell...
Montana ... a scrambler? Everything is relative I guess ... did Staubach win a super bowl? He was a bit of a scrambler - "Rodger the Dodger" .... If Montana was a scrambler than Thiesman belongs on that list.
Montana has similar rushing yards to Big Ben 1676 yards and 20 TDs. Walsh always praised Montanas ability to scramble and throw on the run
Notables as well - Gannon, Hoss, Garcia, Brunnell...
Montana ... a scrambler? Everything is relative I guess ... did Staubach win a super bowl? He was a bit of a scrambler - "Rodger the Dodger" .... If Montana was a scrambler than Thiesman belongs on that list.
Per Rapoport - Sources: A battery of tests revealed that #Eagles QB Carson Wentz has a fracture in his back. The team did CT scans throughout the season, but none revealed the fracture until now. The team is still determining if there is any risk of continuing to play. No surgery necessary.
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These things can sometimes be tough to detect. Had the #Eagles believed the injury was this significant weeks ago, they wouldve pulled him back then.
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Theres two angles on this Wentz thing. One, they missed the injury. Criticize them all you want there. Be my guest. The other one angle is they hid the injury from Wentz. There is zero evidence that occurred here. None.
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And to be clear, when I say they missed the injury, I dont know if that part is accurate either. Im told theres no indication there was a fracture prior to this last series of tests. So it may or may not have been there in the first place.
that would be the most ridiculous thing ever. There is no way that happened and I am going to wait on some evidence before I even remotely consider it.
Quote:
In comment 14216133 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Bridgewater got hurt in practice.
So did tanneheill. But it was a play where it was a designed run and his knee blew out.
So he could have been injured running in general. It had nothing to do with the way he was playing QB.
No Tannehill got hurt during team drills. HE was running a play and was running down the sideline. I watched it a few times.
Here's the link.
Tanneheill hurt at practice. - ( New Window )
Eli has created all sorts of unrealistic expectations regarding QB durability. He is the anomaly. Not everyone else.
And people are going to point to Eli Manning's improbable health as if that is the standard by which all future QBs should be measured by, when it's patently ridiculous and unfair.
Eli has created all sorts of unrealistic expectations regarding QB durability. He is the anomaly. Not everyone else.
But isnt that the point? The more you run and the more extend plays - the greater the chance of injury occurs. I am not saying you should avoid these guys.... but its something that you have to prepare for.
There is a contingent on this site that wants to avoid mobile QBs because they believe they miss time because of their mobility. It is a perceptional bias based on the Giants having an immobile QB who was always healthy. Eli's health history is an outlier, not proof.
And there's definitely a pattern of tall limber QBs pocket passers who don't get injured often, like Mannings, Brady, Rivers, Ryan, to just name a few recent QBs with long relatively injury free qbs.
And there's definitely a pattern of tall limber QBs pocket passers who don't get injured often, like Mannings, Brady, Rivers, Ryan, to just name a few recent QBs with long relatively injury free qbs.
You see a lot of these mobile QBs going full speed, head-on into defenders often do you? We must watch different NFL games.
In the pocket, and more generally behind the line of scrimmage, the QB is protected by unique rules that don't apply to a running back. Furthermore, I can't remember a single time when a RB slid to give himself up. That's another protection QBs have that doesn't seem to be an option for other positions. (Yes, I can remember Victor Cruz and some wide receivers giving themselves up occasionally, but not sliding.)
Those protections encourage QBs to pull the ball down and run. And why not? The rules favor the QB who can run the ball. But the more they run, the more they expose themselves to hits -- not to mention non-contact injuries like Jimmy Garoppolo's knee blowout. So the rules meant to protect QBs are having the unintended consequence of causing QB injuries.
IMO, there are two issues:
1) The QB should be treated as a ball carrier, same as a RB. No special protections. Offenses should adjust their plays accordingly, and
2) Pocket passers (like Eli) have longer careers for a good reason. Running QBs are a huge advantage in the short term but their propensity for injury puts the team in the position of having to find new starting QBs more often.
This is no fault of Wentz, but some guys are built durable and some guys are not. He does not appear to be one of the guys who can take much punishment without his bones giving in. Unfortunately for him, that stuff is not whether your a tough guy or not, it is just the luck of the draw. Eli was built durable, Romo and Wentz were not. Just random stuff (and I agree while the number of hits you take is obviously a factor there is going to be injuries to both types of qbs-pocket passers and mobility guys).
That is often the case when a team moves on from a borderline HOF level QB with historic durability.
Didnt Romo get hurt in a preseason game scrambling and get crunched? Its been a few years and my memory isnt good... haha
This I agree with 100%. His stats dont say it... but I dont think hes even 50% of the player he was last year.
Quote:
in the pocket..twice. Big Ben hurt his ACL in the pocket. Brady in the pocket. Carson Palmer in the pocket. This list can go on forever. Give me a mobile QB that doesn't take hits for 1000 Alex.
Didnt Romo get hurt in a preseason game scrambling and get crunched? Its been a few years and my memory isnt good... haha
He had 3 major injuries, 2 of which happened in the pocket(one against the giants). He broke his collerbone on hits in the pocket twice. The back injury which put him out of his misery was out of the pocket.
Quote:
There is no way Wentz was ready to play. He's limping on camera one day and playing a week later. When you have instability in your knee, it throws everything else off. I understand Foles isn't very good, despite a small stretch last year in the playoffs, but they really hurt themselves rushing him back about 2-3 weeks before he should have.
This I agree with 100%. His stats dont say it... but I dont think hes even 50% of the player he was last year.
Yeah, it's been highlighted a bunch of times. He isn't planting on the injured leg and he's not able to cut in that direction. He's a shell of himself and like RGMe, it will have longterm ramifications.
Quote:
In comment 14216224 Keith said:
Quote:
in the pocket..twice. Big Ben hurt his ACL in the pocket. Brady in the pocket. Carson Palmer in the pocket. This list can go on forever. Give me a mobile QB that doesn't take hits for 1000 Alex.
Didnt Romo get hurt in a preseason game scrambling and get crunched? Its been a few years and my memory isnt good... haha
He had 3 major injuries, 2 of which happened in the pocket(one against the giants). He broke his collerbone on hits in the pocket twice. The back injury which put him out of his misery was out of the pocket.
Ok that makes sense now. I know Boley was one of the players that got him in the pocket. But I remember seeing the one with his back and said to myself... Tony Romos career just ended.
Re: Tannehill (and Deshaun Watson and Jimmy G) - i think i heard the other day that Brady wears a knee brace just because... more QBs should think about doing so. Rodgers did for 8 games or so this year and then ditched it... even though we haven't seen any improvement in his passing or scrambling game since that time. Seems like one of those things more should be doing and they'd likely eventually get used to throwing with.
Mariota isnt an example of anything - in his case, he simply holds onto the ball far too long.
Bradford - an example of a stationary QB who couldnt stay healthy anyway.
Conversely... Chad Pennington's arm and career were never the same after he slid too late on a scramble in Buffalo a few years into his career.
I meant to ask you then, but I ll do it now. Were you trying to make the point that Wilson s mobility is not an asset for him, or that it doesnt allow him to make plays Eli cant
Inask because if I remember correctly I think the implied meaning of the post was a response to the criticism Eli received at the end of the first half against the Eagles for a very untimely interception.
All quarterbacks make bad plays, mobile and immobile. But your attempt to paint mobility as a non asset, because Eli has little, is silly.
I meant to ask you then, but I ll do it now. Were you trying to make the point that Wilson s mobility is not an asset for him, or that it doesnt allow him to make plays Eli cant
Inask because if I remember correctly I think the implied meaning of the post was a response to the criticism Eli received at the end of the first half against the Eagles for a very untimely interception.
All quarterbacks make bad plays, mobile and immobile. But your attempt to paint mobility as a non asset, because Eli has little, is silly.
I dont know if I was making fun of his mobility. It was a horrid play by him. Much like Elis throw was horrid.
My comment was to mock posters who said Elis INT was a game changer when it simply isnt or wasnt. Because Wilsons was just as bad of a play if not worse and it didnt affect Seattle one iota.
Yes..and its been a failing grade for the majority
bradshaw44 : 3:05 pm : link : reply
the issue isn't mobility. It's QB's that rely TOO MUCH on their mobility. A QB that can scramble is fine. When he makes it a main stay every set of downs, then you have a problem.
This is the key. As absurd as it is to say that all mobile QB's get injured is the flip side that injuries to mobile QB's are overstated. We've seen seasons derailed because the QB gets hurt, often while trying to make a play.
Mobility is an asset. Being a rushing QB is often a liability in the long-term.
He was a smart QB. As opposed to a running QB he was known as a scrambler. He scrambled to find a passing lane, NOT to run. He was an expert at protecting his body as best as humanly possible
I think as somebody said, Eli is a freak. QBs get hurt in the pocket and scrambling/running.
Wentz
Watson
Luck
Cam
Lamar Jackson
Josh Allen
Alex Smith
Tennehill
Rodgers
Trubisky
Marriotta
Darnold
Garapolo
Blake Bortles
Ben Roethlisberger
Tyrod Taylor
Thats what, half the leagues starting QBs? If youre one of the people who subscribe to the health above all theory, why would you want a mobile QB who is substantially more likely to get hurt? How would the Giants gain an edge with a mobile QB when just about everyone else in the league has one? For the guys worried about the cap, how smart is it to give insane franchise QB money to a guy who is all but guaranteed to miss games and potentially derail seasons?
Good list. Favre, too. Underrated mover.
Notables as well - Gannon, Hoss, Garcia, Brunnell...
Yup
Quote:
Is not a running QB but hes mobile, rushing for 135 first downs and 19 TDs in his career vs 56 first downs and 6 TDs for Eli, not to mention all the extra time he bought on other plays by avoiding the rush. Montana Young Rodgers Wilson Elway were all super bowl winners who were not afraid to pull the ball down and run.
Good list. Favre, too. Underrated mover.
Notables as well - Gannon, Hoss, Garcia, Brunnell...
Montana ... a scrambler? Everything is relative I guess ... did Staubach win a super bowl? He was a bit of a scrambler - "Rodger the Dodger" .... If Montana was a scrambler than Thiesman belongs on that list.
Quote:
In comment 14216540 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Is not a running QB but hes mobile, rushing for 135 first downs and 19 TDs in his career vs 56 first downs and 6 TDs for Eli, not to mention all the extra time he bought on other plays by avoiding the rush. Montana Young Rodgers Wilson Elway were all super bowl winners who were not afraid to pull the ball down and run.
Good list. Favre, too. Underrated mover.
Notables as well - Gannon, Hoss, Garcia, Brunnell...
Montana ... a scrambler? Everything is relative I guess ... did Staubach win a super bowl? He was a bit of a scrambler - "Rodger the Dodger" .... If Montana was a scrambler than Thiesman belongs on that list.
Good list. Favre, too. Underrated mover.
Notables as well - Gannon, Hoss, Garcia, Brunnell...
Montana ... a scrambler? Everything is relative I guess ... did Staubach win a super bowl? He was a bit of a scrambler - "Rodger the Dodger" .... If Montana was a scrambler than Thiesman belongs on that list.
Two words on Montana - The Catch
Doesn't make him a scrambler.
dynasty...
Wentz - ( New Window )
Brian Westbrook and Steve Smith give two thumbs up!!!
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These things can sometimes be tough to detect. Had the #Eagles believed the injury was this significant weeks ago, they wouldve pulled him back then.
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Theres two angles on this Wentz thing. One, they missed the injury. Criticize them all you want there. Be my guest. The other one angle is they hid the injury from Wentz. There is zero evidence that occurred here. None.
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And to be clear, when I say they missed the injury, I dont know if that part is accurate either. Im told theres no indication there was a fracture prior to this last series of tests. So it may or may not have been there in the first place.