This is not meant to be a criticism of the trade.
I don't think that he is an elite DE.
The trade worked out for both sides.
This is just for fans who are wishing the best for an old hero.
Buccaneers' Jason Pierre-Paul: Another full line despite loss
by RotoWire Staff | RotoWire
Pierre-Paul tallied eight tackles (seven solo), including one for loss, a pass defensed and a fumble recovery in the Buccaneers' 28-14 loss to the Saints on Sunday.
Pierre-Paul came into the contest sporting a questionable tag due to a knee injury, but he was able to turn in another one of his trademark performances. The veteran defensive end was second only to Lavonte David in tackles on the afternoon for the Bucs, and about the only blemish on his performance was that he saw a three-game sack streak snapped.
Buc's Defensive Coordinator: Jason Pierre Paul most worthy of Pro Bowl selection. - (
New Window )
This is a waste of time.
Again, I'm not trying to make him out to be more than he was. He definitely had some attitude and maturity issues. And as much praise as he should get for rehabbing back from the hand, he cost the team that year.
But his productivity is really hard to argue. I mean he's like right behind Jason Sehorn on passes defended and Justin Tuck on sacks.
There are plenty of people more than willing to mount a spirited and aggressive defense for certain players. Some of them just take it overboard. On the opposite end of the spectrum, guys who have helped put trophies in the case, and who's only misstep was getting hurt and playing on teams that were poorly constructed, eh who cares. Not that great anyway.
It's weird.
This is a waste of time.
My comments are not directed at any one person, because you are certainly not the only poster who exhibits this behavior.
And I'm not familiar with your line of work in this area, so don't take this as some kind of personal attack. I just don't know you. But for what reason would someone take your word for it that you know for a fact any of why he was traded.
It was the right move to trade him when they did.
Again, I'm not trying to make him out to be more than he was. He definitely had some attitude and maturity issues. And as much praise as he should get for rehabbing back from the hand, he cost the team that year.
But his productivity is really hard to argue. I mean he's like right behind Jason Sehorn on passes defended and Justin Tuck on sacks.
For me, it's a tale of two careers and two personalities. He was everything you want from a player in 2011, and then that player rarely surfaced again for whatever reason(s). It doesn't make sense to me to overlook it ... I can appreciate all he did for NYG and at the same time recognize his shortcomings, and why it was time to move. I would've moved on the offseason before he blew off his fingers, but Reese et al were desperate.
I've always liked JPP, we likely don't win the SB in 2011 without him, so I wish him the best of luck. If he gets the pro bowl nod, good for him.
We could have kept him and still had the 4th rounder without Ogletree, Barwin (useless) and Omameh (less than useless).
How much was JPP getting paid again?
Olgetree has 5 INTs this year. When was the last time a Giants 'backer was this active in pass defense, Armstead?
Sure whatever u say.. the facts speak for themselves if you know what you’re watching
Trading him was the right move though as he's no a $13M/year player and has played a lot of snaps over the years. I don't know if he was a + or - in the locker room, just going by his on field performance.
The trade itself turned into a HR for the Giants though. While JPP is outperforming Hill this year and is (arguably) likely to do so in 2019 as well, he's not worth >10x the cap hit and I'd wager Hill in 2020+ will be a more productive player (and still dirt cheap thru 2021).
But he didn't fit here in our new 3-4, and we needed to begin to clear cap space.
We got Hill with the third round pick we got for JPP. We also flipped fourth round picks with the Bucs.
This is a rare trade where both teams got very fair value.
Second, he never had another season like that, but he was a big contributor to the really good 2016 defense. Before a leg injury ended his season, in 12 games he had 7 sacks, 3 forced fumbles and 7 passes batted down. And in the 3rd quarter of the season he and Vernon were coming on with 4 sacks each but when JPP missed the last five games Vernon had only 0.5 sacks in the last five games.
Lastly, I don’t want to disillusion anyone but I think that there are lots and lots of veterans on lousy teams already out of contention that don’t go all out in practices and games.
But not criticizing the trade. We had a really good first three draft rounds and if BJ Hill develops then even better.
Antonio Pierce will even be and he was only here a few years.
But I don't think anyone thinks that the team made a mistake when all of those players departed here.
JPP's playing well this year. And we made the right move by trading him.
Lastly, I don’t want to disillusion anyone but I think that there are lots and lots of veterans on lousy teams already out of contention that don’t go all out in practices and games.
Absolutely, he just happened to be one of the highest paid, longest tenured, most visible, etc. It was time to move on, probably for both sides.
If JPP is just one of the guys on a team with otherwise great leadership (like 2011) hes great to have. But the Bucs suck and that has to be mentioned even with his big year.
Thats all Im going to say because I really do feel he wouldve been excellent in the Chandler Jones role in Bettchers D. Very similar players.
Thats all Im going to say because I really do feel he wouldve been excellent in the Chandler Jones role in Bettchers D. Very similar players.
I don't think we can say this team is fixed by any means.
Let's get a win against a quality opponent with their starting QB playing before we say all is good.
In a base 3-4, that doesn't suit JPP as well. He wouldn't be useless here, but at his price tag and that we were able to get something in return for him, it was smart to move a player who isn't a great fit for scheme and making a lot of money.
It's a good dump by the Giants.
They still have Plax threads on BBI...a decade later!
There was another one the other day, LOL.
I was a bit surprised by the trade but understood why.
After his 2011 season I figured he'd eventually have a 20+ sacks year but he never did.
Lost by two and three points to Carolina and Atlanta.
They would probably have beaten the Eagles if the officials hadn't missed blatant OBJ PI call, but those officials were so bad that you'd have to go back and see how many bad calls favored the Giants.
Overall he played hard. I know what I see and the guy played hard. He was a strong 2 way player. He chased plays. He played his side in the run game at a very high level which is what the OTs who faced him said about him. It wasn’t just a pass rushing DE. He handled the run.
It also wasn’t just 2011. He was exceptional in 2012 too with a better QB pressure rate than even 2011. He had the back thing. He could have cut a little weight too around 2013. But he played good ball again in 2014.
About playing in this defense? Not a problem. He could have played several positions. He certainly could have played a Chandler Jones role and would have excelled by following what Jones does to cut a little weight and play that position.
JPP was more tradeable, largely due to his friendlier contract even though a healthy Vernon is a better player at this point, but that's why they chose to move him and keep Vernon.
This year, he looks better. In that Saints game he made several plays early getting off blocks on runs to his side. Bucs D played a really good game and he was a big part of it. I only saw the first 3 area but he was a major factor. Saints struggled.
JPP is a top 2 way DE again.
He's 7th all time in team history in sacks behind Justin Tuck. By any measure it was a successful Giants career and he had a brilliant run as the best defensive player on a team that won a super bowl. And despite losing parts of his hand, rehabbing back to playable condition, and tons of video evidence which illustrated that he played the run just as ably as he rushed the passer, you've got couch warriors calling him a lazy low-effort player and happily buying into the not-evidenced idea that he was somehow a locker room problem.
Fact, we don't win in 2011 without JPP.
Fact, he was a physical specimen who was often the best athlete on the field, and made a lot of big plays based on that.
Fact, he was injured virtually every season, and has two major issues (back and hand) which negatively impacted his play and will never go away.
Fact, he was an excellent run defender, among the best in the game at his position.
Fact, he turns 30 in 3 weeks, is in his 9th season, and is playing on a massive contract.
Now for a bit of conjecture. I was always disappointed in the fact that JPP never really developed a repertoire of pass rush moves. He relied heavily on bull rushes and single moves, which for him were/are effective because he was able to physically overpower opponents. Still, my impression is that he never seemed to work at his craft, developing moves, combinations, setups, or any sort of finesse, like the use of hand(s). He had the chance to play with guys like Tuck and Osi who over time became very polished pass rushers, relying on those tactics as their physical skills began to decline on the wrong side of 30.
JPP, on the other hand (in my view), seemed to rely on much of the same pass rush tactics throughout his time here. I would argue the Gettleman front office saw this too, becoming concerned at the prospect of an inevitable decline in production once his physical dominance wanes.
I would also argue that this contributed to one of the biggest criticisms of JPP; that he would disappear for stretches only to come back with monster games. A lack of consistency. I attribute this to his style of play, which was somewhat one-dimensional (physically overpower opponents). When JPP could physically dominate a guy he lined up across, whether because the player was simply overmatched, inexperienced, or otherwise, JPP could look like a world-beater. Conversely, when going against a professional, technically-proficient offensive lineman that could redirect JPP's physical attributes against him, JPP's athletic ability was often negated. It's a simplistic analysis but I think the film bears this out.
As a former OL, I can tell you that the bull rush is intimidating and tough to block when properly executed by a powerful player, especially if you're out of position. But, when you know it's coming and play it correctly, I'd take a bull rush over just about any technique. There's not a whole lot to it. JPP is a bull rusher first and foremost.
Now, there were always the questions of heart, hustle and intelligence. Things I saw from JPP, especially early on, cemented that is a high-energy guy, and there was a lot of hustle in his game. I didn't see many loafs from him. What I did see, however, in several seasons, was a lack of conditioning, especially in 2012 when I believe he came to camp out of shape. He then proceeded to hurt his back and was never quite the same. Being out of shape can be confused with a lack of hustle... although I guess they are both symptoms of the same root issue.
I don't want to speak ill of people, but I also believe the objective evidence leaves little doubt that JPP wasn't exactly the brightest bulb on the tree, to use a seasonally-appropriate metaphor. I think you'll find plenty of evidence that his decisionmaking wasn't very good, which also led to his most prominent issue.
There were always questions of maturity, too. As a player moves from a rookie, to a young up-and-comer, to a homegrown, productive veteran on a big contract, for better or worse there are certain leadership expectations and I don't think JPP ever "grabbed the ring" the way the organization wanted him to, in that respect. Just an opinion.
So, while I may fall into the category of those who have this "pervasive habit", as you say, I like to think my views are grounded in some observational evidence.
Vs WAS and DAL, 2 of the best OTs in the game, JPP handled them and more especially Williams. He dominated Williams.
On the field, he played hard (outside of the tendency to give up on the pass rush to knock down passes).
Maybe he had issues in staying in great shape, film work, and overall midweek prep. But on gameday, he showed up and played hard.
I couldn't disagree more with the "JPP was a dog" crew. Thats BS IMO. He played hard and played the run at a high level.
His #s vs the NFC East are great, he just took it to another level against the Skins. And Philly-Dallas-Was had arguably the 3 best LTs not named Joe Thomas in the NFL over that time (Peters-Smith-Williams).
Yes, because the pro-rated money was all paid by the Giants.
So, while I may fall into the category of those who have this "pervasive habit", as you say, I like to think my views are grounded in some observational evidence.
Regulator, thanks for your insightful post. By the way you laid your opinion out, it's not the type of material I'm talking about. It's the difference between an educated opinion delivered in an intelligent way, and what passes for a standard issue hot take.
I don't want anyone to misconstrue that I'm arguing for the idea that players who played here shouldn't be criticized. That isn't what I'm talking about.
To say the trade was the right move is either homerism, ignorance, or both. This was one shouldn't be hard to figure out.
To say the trade was the right move is either homerism, ignorance, or both. This was one shouldn't be hard to figure out.
Or it could be looking beyond 2018. The trade netted us BJ Hill and ~$10M+ in extra cap space in both 2019-2020. If Hill plays stout run D with a consistent 6-8 sacks from the 34DE spot, basically what he's doing as a rookie without further development, and they spend the cap space wisely the Giants easily win the trade.
And if Hill continues to improve throughout the life of his rookie deal and JPP starts slowing down over the next 2 seasons, then the Giants can flush the cap space down the drain on another Omameh and still break even on the trade.
If you could be sued for libel, you would have to prove that it were true. And for that you would produce statements by owners, coaches, teammates, players on other teams? No but it was your opinion.
The guy was very immature when he came to the Giants. He's been out there, he's taken his lumps, and now he's a man.
Why do you have to come here and badmouth a player? Does that give you pleasure? Or a feeling that you know more about football than everyone else?
Since the Bucs actually have him on their team, maybe the opinion of their coaches and players is worth more than yours:
He also has been giving advice to Will Gholston and Will Clarke about how they can use their body length to their advantage. And when the Special Olympics came to the facility recently, he was enthusiastic, leading foot-races and obstacle courses and celebrating with the participants.
He leads quietly behind the scenes," defensive tackle Gerald McCoy said. "Guys love him. All the experience he has -- [he's] a great leader. And sometimes guys have experience but don't lead well, but he's a great leader -- pulling guys aside, holding private meetings with players, doing extra out at practice. A lot of it is not just what he's doing with them, it's him playing well as well.
JPP Leadership - ( New Window )
If you could be sued for libel, you would have to prove that it were true. And for that you would produce statements by owners, coaches, teammates, players on other teams? No but it was your opinion.
The guy was very immature when he came to the Giants. He's been out there, he's taken his lumps, and now he's a man.
Why do you have to come here and badmouth a player? Does that give you pleasure? Or a feeling that you know more about football than everyone else?
Since the Bucs actually have him on their team, maybe the opinion of their coaches and players is worth more than yours:
He also has been giving advice to Will Gholston and Will Clarke about how they can use their body length to their advantage. And when the Special Olympics came to the facility recently, he was enthusiastic, leading foot-races and obstacle courses and celebrating with the participants.
He leads quietly behind the scenes," defensive tackle Gerald McCoy said. "Guys love him. All the experience he has -- [he's] a great leader. And sometimes guys have experience but don't lead well, but he's a great leader -- pulling guys aside, holding private meetings with players, doing extra out at practice. A lot of it is not just what he's doing with them, it's him playing well as well. JPP Leadership - ( New Window )
Glad you posted that... I suppose it must be the first time a player turned a corner after a humbling experience at another stop along the way...
I wish JPP the best, I have no reason not to, and I am glad to see he's doing well in Tampa. Like I said, we don't win in 2011 without him and for that reason he will always occupy a special place in my mind, as a fan. Still, it's silly that you took my post as an axe-grinding session. I was critical of things I saw in his game that disappointed me, purely on the basis of what I thought he could have been. I didn't disagree with the trade at the time and I still don't now. I laid out my reasons why, and quite explicitly called it conjecture.
You'll further note I never said he wasn't a 'team' guy. By all accounts he was a well-liked, and likable player. Still, I think it's fair to say that if he were such an irreplaceable piece of this locker room, and we had reason to believe he would be as productive in this scheme as he has been in Tampa, that it would have made sense to keep him, contract and all.
I get that you're sore over it, but what difference does it make? You're literally trolling for posts like mine with this thread.
Those things can actually all be true - but in the world of BBI, it often needs to be one or the other - otherwise people can't be right about the opinions they spend so much time dug in on, unwavering.
JPP did a lot of good things here and was a major cog in this teams last Super Bowl run. Dealing him made sense for a few reasons. No need to trash him now that he's gone.
Not a lot a brainpower in play here.
No call for the poster to run JPP down. Are we supposed to be impressed by poster’s individual opinion, as compared to the opinion of the coaches and players he sees every day with Tampa Bay.