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Landon Collins...Where do you Stand?

mittenedman : 12/13/2018 4:28 pm
A) Re-sign him to big extension
B) Let him Walk
C) Only a 1-year Prove it Deal

After seeing the D last week does anyone think we should devote big cap $$$ to Collins? I would personally just let Michael Thomas play there and look for a speedy FS.

Yes - he's the defensive captain. But I also have a sneaking suspicion Gettleman will let him walk and use the $$$ to beef up the OL and front 7.

Where do you stand?
C  
Anakim : 12/13/2018 4:29 pm : link
.
C  
gmen9892 : 12/13/2018 4:31 pm : link
and we preferably move him to LB or put a legit FS next to him.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/13/2018 4:31 pm : link
I wouldn't give him a long-term deal.
How about D  
jeff57 : 12/13/2018 4:32 pm : link
Franchise him.
...  
26.2 : 12/13/2018 4:33 pm : link
Franchise him or "C"
Like him back  
David B. : 12/13/2018 4:34 pm : link
at a reasonable price.

No way you can pay him like an all-star ball-hawking free safety.
D  
Trainmaster : 12/13/2018 4:34 pm : link
Only real choice.
B  
JonnyR : 12/13/2018 4:34 pm : link
Why a one year, prove it deal? We've seen him play his entire career here and we know what we have (and don't have) in him already.
B  
King Quis : 12/13/2018 4:35 pm : link
I don’t think he’s worth a meaty contract.should’ve traded him before now like the Pats typically do but don’t compound the problem and give the guy a big deal.
Franchise Tag  
mac attack : 12/13/2018 4:36 pm : link
which is essentially a 1 year prove it deal
B.  
jogo1 : 12/13/2018 4:36 pm : link
Assuming the 1 year contract would be in the ~$10M franchise tag range, that money is better spent along the OL or DL.
Let him walk  
Go Terps : 12/13/2018 4:36 pm : link
Take the comp pick and the cap space.
Need to see how  
section125 : 12/13/2018 4:38 pm : link
they do this week against a true starting QB.
I would rather sign him to a 1yr prove it deal  
Diver_Down : 12/13/2018 4:39 pm : link
to ensure he is healthy. Shoulder surgery on a shoulder tackler is sketchy. The FT will be $12M so a big no for me. If he is able to pass a physical before the start of FA and he wants to remain a Giants than I would consider a 4yr/$36M contract. He likely thinks he is worth more. FYI, Spotrac has a Market Value estimation for some players and they peg him at $9.3M/yr.
Collins Market Value per Spotrac - ( New Window )
Have him keep the number 21  
McNally's_Nuts : 12/13/2018 4:39 pm : link
and shift him to OLB.

Mark Barron did it. Deone Bucannon did it.

It would only serve to benefit his career.
If it's true  
mittenedman : 12/13/2018 4:39 pm : link
he was on the block, and the Chiefs were interested, and the Giants wanted their 2 which they knew would be a low...

That doesn't tell me he's seen as a future building block.
He's a tough player  
mrvax : 12/13/2018 4:43 pm : link
very good in run support but a coverage liability. Pretty sure we used 2 draft picks on him. Let's see Michael Thomas some more. Hate to have to go out and get a FS and an SS.

I'll opine after the final game.
He's not an OLB, the lack of size gets him injured  
JonC : 12/13/2018 4:45 pm : link
I'd look to keep him if it's in the $10M per range. He's a damned good SS but needs talent around him so he focuses on his assignments, see : 2016.

Michael Thomas is not a starting quality SS in the NFL.
Does anyone  
joeinpa : 12/13/2018 4:45 pm : link
Believe he is a difference maker.

Seems like the kind of player coaches love. Hard nosed, team oriented, leader, but I have no idea what they will or should do.

Saying the defense was good last week without him isn t really fair. That was a decimated team who has quit on the season emotionally.
let him walk  
jtfuoco : 12/13/2018 4:48 pm : link
he is not the type of player to build around on defense but it will be interesting to see how much he asks for.
RE: He's not an OLB, the lack of size gets him injured  
McNally's_Nuts : 12/13/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 14217762 JonC said:
Quote:
I'd look to keep him if it's in the $10M per range. He's a damned good SS but needs talent around him so he focuses on his assignments, see : 2016.

Michael Thomas is not a starting quality SS in the NFL.


Mark Barron is 1 inch taller and 6 pounds lighter.

Collins in a Hybrid position would be the best for him and the Giants.

But JonC is smarter than me.
C  
bigbb : 12/13/2018 4:49 pm : link
Not worth top money. A good player not great
Franchise Tag  
JohnB : 12/13/2018 4:49 pm : link
.
Keep your talented  
ryanmkeane : 12/13/2018 4:51 pm : link
young players, he's one of them
Re-signing Collins would be a significant investment  
j_rud : 12/13/2018 4:54 pm : link
as you would (hopefully) look to upgrade the FS position as well so he can be free to play to his strengths. Which kind of begs the question if he's a 10 mil per kind of guy. The body of work the past 2 seasons has not made it an easy decision. I'd lean towards letting him go, because it's likely going to take double digits per year to sign him. Even with the injury someone is likely to invest in him.
RE: RE: He's not an OLB, the lack of size gets him injured  
JonC : 12/13/2018 4:55 pm : link
In comment 14217769 McNally's_Nuts said:
Quote:
In comment 14217762 JonC said:


Quote:


I'd look to keep him if it's in the $10M per range. He's a damned good SS but needs talent around him so he focuses on his assignments, see : 2016.

Michael Thomas is not a starting quality SS in the NFL.



Mark Barron is 1 inch taller and 6 pounds lighter.

Collins in a Hybrid position would be the best for him and the Giants.

But JonC is smarter than me.


Look at their body types and how the weight is distributed over their frames. Those making the transition are built differently than LC, and you should want to preserve his health too. In a hybrid role, he could get some LB looks as he has this season in certain packages. But, a full time move does not compute.
Prove what?  
XBRONX : 12/13/2018 4:59 pm : link
We know he cant cover.
RE: Prove what?  
EricJ : 12/13/2018 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14217795 XBRONX said:
Quote:
We know he cant cover.


That is not why he is here
Franchise Tag...  
.McL. : 12/13/2018 5:00 pm : link
This may not work out well for him...
If he can't pass a physical by whatever the appropriate date is, I can see the Giants removing the tag, and offering a 1yr deal for less. Most teams will have issues getting him in under that cap. We saw what happened this year to safeties...
B  
RobCarpenter : 12/13/2018 5:01 pm : link
Time to move on. Let someone else overpay for him.
the Spotrac evaluation is very interesting, wonder if it accounts for  
JonC : 12/13/2018 5:01 pm : link
open market inflation.

Figure his camp pushes for $12M per as a floor, and they settle between 10-12, is my guesstimation.
RE: B  
mrvax : 12/13/2018 5:08 pm : link
In comment 14217805 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
Time to move on. Let someone else overpay for him.


You may be right. But...can the Giants get a decent FS and SS with all the other needs?
RE: Prove what?  
ron mexico : 12/13/2018 5:08 pm : link
In comment 14217795 XBRONX said:
Quote:
We know he cant cover.


given the amount of passing yards that teams regularly put up, I'm not sure where all these other shut down safeties are throughout the league.
RE: the Spotrac evaluation is very interesting, wonder if it accounts for  
Diver_Down : 12/13/2018 5:10 pm : link
In comment 14217806 JonC said:
Quote:
open market inflation.

Figure his camp pushes for $12M per as a floor, and they settle between 10-12, is my guesstimation.


They don't do it for every player, but it seems to be quite specific. With the FT being about $12M, he will want to start there. My question regarding the rehab is will he be healthy enough to pass a physical when FA opens? No GM will sign Collins without a physical. If he misses out on the initial wave of FA, he might have to settle for our best offer even on a short term basis to reestablish his market value. We saw last off-season the market fall for safeties that languished on the market past the initial wave of FA.
Have some patience  
JonC : 12/13/2018 5:12 pm : link
Giants do not have the talent around LC on the edges or on the backend. Look at what he was capable of in 2016, that was not a mistake. He's not a great cover SS but does the rest of it really well, a more complete safety than most.
RE: RE: the Spotrac evaluation is very interesting, wonder if it accounts for  
JonC : 12/13/2018 5:14 pm : link
In comment 14217825 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14217806 JonC said:


Quote:


open market inflation.

Figure his camp pushes for $12M per as a floor, and they settle between 10-12, is my guesstimation.



They don't do it for every player, but it seems to be quite specific. With the FT being about $12M, he will want to start there. My question regarding the rehab is will he be healthy enough to pass a physical when FA opens? No GM will sign Collins without a physical. If he misses out on the initial wave of FA, he might have to settle for our best offer even on a short term basis to reestablish his market value. We saw last off-season the market fall for safeties that languished on the market past the initial wave of FA.


Labrum repair can range 3-6 months, probably why they chose to get it done now and watch out for his future. Agree on the open market for safeties falling off, and SS are typically "easier" to find in the college ranks, plug them in and play downhill.
Maybe the rookie  
mrvax : 12/13/2018 5:16 pm : link
Beal can take away some of the coverage responsibilities.
He's supposed to be very good.
Not worth the cash.  
Boy Cord : 12/13/2018 5:17 pm : link
.
Transition Tag  
WillVAB : 12/13/2018 5:59 pm : link
.
Love to see him on the team  
JerseyCityJoe : 12/13/2018 5:59 pm : link
But no way we should break the bank for him. Pay him like the gamer he is, however if he wants elite money I wish him well somewhere else.
I don't want to give him  
TommyWiseau : 12/13/2018 6:04 pm : link
A long term deal, franchise him and see if he is healthy and can improve with better talent at FS
RE: I don't want to give him  
Fred-in-Florida : 12/13/2018 6:20 pm : link
In comment 14217875 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
A long term deal, franchise him and see if he is healthy and can improve with better talent at FS


That’s what I was thinking. Riley hasn’t exactly lit the world on fire!
A...  
Dan in the Springs : 12/13/2018 6:26 pm : link
I think the team has been learning how to best use him and the arrow is pointing up within Bettcher's scheme.

Watching closely it seems Bettcher's scheme is most effective with guys who have multiple assignments. BBI has soured on his coverage abilities but imo there are many coverage assignments he can succeed in, and of course there are other contain/run assignments that he succeeds in as well. With his talent there are many, many things he can do. I think the NYG know this and will make him a nice long-term offer. Looking at what quality safeties make in the league I think JonC is right on the money wrt the offer and ultimate take.
I would like  
Beer Man : 12/13/2018 6:29 pm : link
him as part of the Core. If they can afford to sign him, then I am all for it
Not to mention  
Beer Man : 12/13/2018 6:31 pm : link
If he leaves, we are back where we were when we signed him (i.e., a bunch of rejects manning both safety positions)
I'm glad that I don't have to make that decision.  
yatqb : 12/13/2018 6:32 pm : link
He's awful in coverage, but great near the LOS. With a great FS he'd be an asset in the nickel and dime packages, but is that enough to pay $10-12M on a long term deal. I'm leaning against it.
RE: Not to mention  
mrvax : 12/13/2018 6:49 pm : link
In comment 14217905 Beer Man said:
Quote:
If he leaves, we are back where we were when we signed him (i.e., a bunch of rejects manning both safety positions)


That's my fear. I think with the guys we now have at CB, we're OK there with Beal. But missing 2 decent safeties is hard to fill. Don't want 2 JAGs there.
Transition tag  
Big_Pete : 12/13/2018 6:54 pm : link
My bet is a transition tag.

I know this doesn't give any picks should Collins leave but it has some interesting options.

First of all, we can match any deal he signs elsewhere letting us see what the market it like.

If the deal is likely to be more than we are comfortable paying, it will be a fairly substantial contract which increases the value for the compensationary pick formula.
As a fan i want him back  
rasbutant : 12/13/2018 6:56 pm : link
He not just a good player, but also a leader, and plays the game with heart. He's the type of player you want on your team.

Team building wise though, its hard to pay a SS that kind of money. If it comes down to him or Sterling Sheppard, I think Shepard has a bigger impact. But also, would take him over olgetree, another player i like but don't like spending big money on.
C  
Jay on the Island : 12/13/2018 7:01 pm : link
but I wish the Giants could go back to the deadline and accept the 3rd round pick that the Chiefs offered for Collins.
One of the benefits of being a 5-8 team  
Jay on the Island : 12/13/2018 7:06 pm : link
is that the Giants can play the young kids that would normally not get much playing time in the Giants were in the hunt for a playoff spot. Sean Chandler was an intriguing UDFA pickup and he flashed against Washington. If he can show enough then he could be the favorite to start at one safety spot next season. I would like to re-sign Michael Thomas to a backup role. The Giants will need to draft one safety to compete for a starting job next season.

Curtis Riley should only be brought back in a backup/ST role. He has been absolutely awful for most of the season with the exception of a few plays. He is dreadful versus the run and often takes terrible angles that lead to big gains. The safety position is in need for another overhaul.
C.  
AcidTest : 12/13/2018 7:07 pm : link
As someone said, he's a shoulder tackler who has now had shoulder surgery. He's also a SS with limited coverage skills. He and Ogletree have been attacked all year.
Let him go  
ChicagoMarty : 12/13/2018 7:14 pm : link
He can't cover

Two out of three NFL plays are pass plays.

The back seven has to be able to pass cover.

Even if you moved him to lb he still would have to cover and pass coverage is simply not within his skill set
Re-sign him to a reasonable deal.  
Red Dog : 12/13/2018 7:20 pm : link
This team needs a ton of help at many other positions, and if he is allowed to walk, that will be just one more position to fill. AGAIN. There is nobody on the roster that is anywhere near as good a strong safety as Collins.

If the Reese / Ross years proved anything, it is that you cannot build a winning team by continually letting your better players walk away instead of giving them a second contract. You can't grossly overpay a guy, but you can't let decent players walk for average money either.

OK, he's not a great cover guy. They need to get a center fielder who is one - and another one for the bench, need to continue to beef up the corners, and let Collins do what he does best which is run support. The run game is still important, especially to cold weather teams in cold weather divisions like the NFC East minus Dallass.
Tag him  
Rick in Dallas : 12/13/2018 7:22 pm : link
Look we knew when he was drafted that he was limited in pass coverage.
Let’s see him one more year under Betcher(sp) system
B  
Percy : 12/13/2018 7:39 pm : link
His play against the pass is unconscionably bad -- and has been since college. Can't have that back there.
Referring to last week’s game  
gmenatlarge : 12/13/2018 7:43 pm : link
means nothing. Keep him at the right price.
He can't cover  
uther99 : 12/13/2018 7:47 pm : link
and the league knows he can't cover. That's a problem at safety
I'd try to resign  
AcesUp : 12/13/2018 8:06 pm : link
As JonC mentioned, I'd set a number and stick to that or franchise. The "C" option isn't realistic unless you're referring to the tag, guys sign prove-it deals when they lack leverage to get a longterm deal on the open market. That won't be a problem for Collins.

He has his weaknesses but he's a playmaker. In today's NFL, it's okay to give up yardage, the rules favor that, but you need guys that come up with big plays that create turnovers or stall drives. Collins does that at a high rate. When the players around him do their job he can be the best player on a top defense, which was the case in 16. You don't just let a guy like that walk.
A  
Jesse B : 12/13/2018 8:15 pm : link
Dude can ball. Get a pass rush and hell make a ton of plays
Exactly  
Doomster : 12/13/2018 8:30 pm : link
what is your definition of a playmaker? and care to elaborate on all these plays he's made?
RE: Exactly  
AcesUp : 12/13/2018 9:39 pm : link
In comment 14218020 Doomster said:
Quote:
what is your definition of a playmaker? and care to elaborate on all these plays he's made?


I literally elaborated in the very next sentence and he almost won defensive MVP a couple years ago based on exactly what I described.
don't break the bank  
fkap : 12/13/2018 10:06 pm : link
the per year isn't as important as the structure and guarantee.
Allow yourself an easy exit after a year or two if he doesn't turn out to be a difference maker once we surround him with the talent JonC wants.

Set your value, and stick to it, only exceeding it slightly. I don't pretend to be a savvy evaluator, but I get the gut feeling that he isn't worth a kick ass contract. He's worth bringing back, but you can't go crazy. There's only so many huge contracts you can afford, and I don't think it's a slam dunk he should be one of them

Obviously, we need to see what happens the rest of the year, and what other options are available at what price. If we barely miss a beat with him out, close the doors of that money wagon.
He can't cover, lacks assignment discipline, and has a big mouth  
Optimus-NY : 12/13/2018 10:17 pm : link
He can be back for a reasonable price, bu if he wants buku bucks, then fuck him. He can sign elsewhere and take up some other team's cap space needlessly before he's out of the league after his second contract. I've seen this show before.
Outside of the tag  
mattyblue : 12/14/2018 12:18 am : link
I don’t see a way he will be back on a 1 year deal. Someone will pay him if we don’t. Personally I’d like to see him back. He’s still very young and definitely is talented. When he is out in the position to play to his strengths he is very good.

He isn’t the greatest cover guy, but a safety on a TE is often a mismatch simply due to size. I don’t know what kind of money it would take to sign him but I’d do it as long as it isn’t crazy money.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/14/2018 9:25 am : link
I think I can cover better three sheets to the wind than Collins. He's a complete liability there. I wouldn't give him big $ at all.
B  
Harvest Blend : 12/14/2018 9:25 am : link
.
You people are smoking crack  
Dnew15 : 12/14/2018 9:38 am : link
if you think C is even an option.
Options are tag him or extend him and it's going to be expensive.
Collins IS a top 5 safety in the NFL - and I'm not just talking about SS.
Dude had a NFL type season in 2016. How quickly we forget.
NFL defensive MVP  
Dnew15 : 12/14/2018 9:41 am : link
type season in 2016
RE: Option C  
mittenedman : 12/14/2018 10:57 am : link
I think it's more likely than getting credit for here.

It's not that he won't receive a longterm offer elsewhere: it's that his market value (may be) down. If it is, he can sign a 1-year prove it deal in NY, attempt to re-establish his market value and then become a FA in 2020.

Of course, if someone backs up the BRINKS truck he's gone, but short of that, the 1-year deal could be a smart move on his part.
keep him  
Alex_Webster : 12/14/2018 11:06 am : link
Reasonable contract. Remembering we need Free Safety....which he is not.
Tag him...  
Milton : 12/14/2018 11:11 am : link
...and trade him.
I say we offer him  
JoeyBigBlue : 12/14/2018 11:24 am : link
Something along the lines of 4 years 40 million with 20 guaranteed. If he takes it great, if not let him walk.
4 yrs/40 mil  
Dnew15 : 12/14/2018 11:34 am : link
sounds about right if he's willing to take a hometown discount, realistically, he will be little north of that.
It wouldn't shock me if someone in the NFL was willing to make him the highest paid safety in the league.
RE: Keep your talented  
RinR : 12/14/2018 11:38 am : link
In comment 14217775 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
young players, he's one of them


This.

This team needs talented players. Letting him walk just creates another hole that needs to be filled. We could do alot worse than Collins back there.
^^^^  
Dnew15 : 12/14/2018 11:39 am : link
so - so true
Letting LC go  
George : 12/14/2018 12:08 pm : link
= yet another enormous hole in our roster to fill.

Despite our recent winning ways, I still feel like we need a near total overhaul in our LB and DB corps, not to mention our OL and potentially a Franchise QB.

Re-signing LC means one less desperate need for us to address in March/April.
it's pretty much unanimous  
fkap : 12/14/2018 1:41 pm : link
that coverage isn't his strong suit. If there's a FA out there who is decent at all areas, even if not as good as LC in some areas, maybe it would make more sense to throw the big money at him instead of LC. Dunno if that person is available this year.

Or it may be a different position that should get the bucks. Would a good center and an ok SS make more sense, for example.

In a vacuum, it's easy to say give him the money and retain him, but it's not a vacuum.
Copout. Depends on the money.  
wigs in nyc : 12/14/2018 1:51 pm : link
But I'd look to bring him back. Anyone want to guess what a replacement would look like back there?
I can't  
capegman : 12/14/2018 7:23 pm : link
figure out if his play has dropped or if he is not being used well in this defense.
The Giants, cut a player 1st team All Pro two years ago  
Reese's Pieces : 12/14/2018 7:33 pm : link
and chosen to the Pro Bowl two years in a row?

The Giants should keep Collins because he runs and hits and blitzes and tackles better than other player on the defense.

But Collins, as he has revealed himself to be an imperfect safety who doesn't cover too well, has to realize that he is not going to get a monster salary from another team now that he will be returning from surgery.

I hope that he won't make the same mistake that nearly every other free agent who chose to leave the Giants has made, which is overvaluing himself. Starting with Steve Smith and Kevin Bossy and Plax, what these guys wound up with was a short stay with the teams that took them in.

The smart thing for him to do is to stay home with the Giants and keep his career moving along.

As for the Giants, do they really want to add a safety to the shopping list that includes already the very expensive positions of QB and pass rusher?


Giants should be very interested in keeping Collins  
Jimmy Googs : 12/14/2018 7:47 pm : link
he is simply a football player and we need more of those guys. The fact he struggles in pass coverage isn’t great for us but hopefully it keeps his salary desires within reason.

But we want him...
I was a big fan but he played really poorly when the team was 1-7  
sb from NYT Forum : 12/15/2018 10:25 am : link
...and it wasn't even his coverage that was the biggest problem. His tackling was really bad.

In his 4 years here he's had one great season and three average seasons. IMO a one year prove-it deal is fine.
He's a terrific football player  
Rafflee : 12/16/2018 12:06 pm : link
Focus on the things he does and let him do those things---Call his position "Impact Football Player"....he's a good tackler...he has ball skills....he's a blitzer.

He's a better coverage guy than he's being portrayed--not great, but liveable. Frankly, it's bad scheming to place and measure him in coverage versus "the George Kittles" of the NFL, especially given the non-pass rush in the first 7-10 games.

I love Landon---I'm wearing his Shirt today.
Landon has  
XBRONX : 12/16/2018 12:16 pm : link
balls skills? Two interceptions in the last 33 games.
I would not pay him big money  
Matt M. : 12/16/2018 3:08 pm : link
That includes franchise tag. His play has not lived up to his second season the last 2 years. He is still a good player, but nowhere near an All-Pro/DPOY candidate. Now, he is coming off shoulder surgery, which is what really makes me pause. The shoulder is probably the most delicate and most re-injured joint. That is a big deal for a player whose game is dominated by being aggressive and physical.
Well  
jtfuoco : 12/16/2018 10:11 pm : link
After seeing the disaster of attempted tackling today I might have to change my opinion lets see how much he is asking for.
Watching the Giants get mauled trying to defend the running game  
baadbill : 12/16/2018 11:34 pm : link
today, it certainly crossed my mind that Collins would have made a significant impact had he been playing.
If he goes somehwere witha coach that plays to  
arniefez : 12/24/2018 2:03 pm : link
his strengths and hides his weaknesses the Giants will look stupid for letting him go. He does some things really well. He should not be asked to do the things he does poorly as often as he is.
Franchise tag him...  
Milton : 12/24/2018 2:11 pm : link
...and hope that someone offers a day two pick in trade. If not, let him play on the tag for one year and re-evaluate later.
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