I came across this article regarding Joakim Noah's tenure with the Knicks.
| What exactly does Noah mean when he says he was too lit to play in New York? He means he was partying too much. Noah told Vernon he had roughly 60 people at his house after his first game with the Knicks. He also admitted the city was not good for his lifestyle. |
This got me thinking that there have been some terrible free agent signings in NY sports history. Wade Redden with the Rangers; Bobby Bo or Jason Bay with the Mets; Lavar Arrington with the Giants...
What say you BBI, who are some of the worst free agent signings?
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Right right.
I think Pavano was the one I was trying to come up with. 100%
Yankees-Pavano or maybe Ellsbury.
Rangers-So many in the early 2000's, but I think Redden might take the cake.
Giants-NFL contracts aren't gtd, so none are devastating, but Geoff Scwartz was pretty useless. Lavar Arrington has to take the cake though.
Eh, if there's not much cost to a signing then it can't be all bad, it's simple enough to cut the guy and get someone else.
The problem with bad signings are when the player is terrible AND expensive. And I'll always refer to that as the Pavano Rule.
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based on price of the contract, obscure signings like Trey Junkin and Herman Moore work too.
Eh, if there's not much cost to a signing then it can't be all bad, it's simple enough to cut the guy and get someone else.
The problem with bad signings are when the player is terrible AND expensive. And I'll always refer to that as the Pavano Rule.
Even though he was cheap, Trey Junkin's bad snap in the SF playoff game cost a lot.
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Tore his knee ligaments first year, and only played one more year.
He was a Free Agent, since he had signed with the WFL in 1974. But Wellington GAVE AWAY two third round draft choices to Miami when he signed him. Here's the link:
Giants Beau Geste: Give 2 Draft Picks for Csonka
From the article:
Confucius say: Honorable man get taken in end, said one member of the team's staff. But I tell you, it's nice working for a guy like that, and I just hope nice guys don't always finish last.
At Phoenix, Mara said he made a commitment to Don Shula, the Dolphins general manager and coach, to give Miami compensation. After many discussions with Shula and Joe Robbie, the Dolphins president, Mara's first offer of the Giants 1978 and 1979 third‐round draft picks was accepted.
Mara does not expect anyone else to follow his example. I talked to Tex Schramm (the Dallas Cowboys president) about compensating us for Ron Johnson, said Mara, and he said he would as soon as the Redskins gave him something for his players. I was just being facetious. Ron didn't make their team and I didn't expect anything for him.
So, even when things look bad at times now, they are never as bad as when Wellington was running the team. Love him as an individual, but imagine a team as lacking in talent as the mid 70's Giants were giving away draft choices!!!
Oh, as a side note, Czonka was the fullback on the field that was supposed to take the handoff from Pisarcik that was fumbled (1st "Miracle at the Meadowlands"). McVey's dad was the Head Coach, and the guy who called the play, OC Bob Gibson, never coached in the NFL again. Here's an article from the NYT on him:
How One Bad Giants Call Ended an N.F.L. Career
Some others
Jason Bay - Id classify as colossally bad
Vince Coleman to the Mets
Kaz Matsui (minus his first at bat of every season)
Geoff Schwartz
Carlos Emmons
Barrett Green
Igawa is definitely up there, though it's not as painful because we didn't have to see much of him in the majors.
Igawa got $46m/5-years. Total of 71.2 MLB innings, at a 6.66 ERA.
Bonilla didn't work out, but it wasn't a bad decision to sign him. He finished top 3 in the MVP voting his previous 2 years and was still in his late 20s.
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but he was a Japanese pitcher who was signed by the Yankees. The Yanks payed a large posting fee as well as a pretty hefty long term contract. And he never really pitched in the majors.
Igawa is definitely up there, though it's not as painful because we didn't have to see much of him in the majors.
Igawa got $46m/5-years. Total of 71.2 MLB innings, at a 6.66 ERA.
Check that - Igawa only got $20m (only.) The figure above included a $26m posting fee!
This is very true.
2 things:
1) The July 1st until 2035 had/has absolutely nothing to do with Bonilla's free agency signing in 1991. The annuity payments made to Bonilla were negotiated after the Mets acquired him from the Dodgers in winter '98 and he had a terrible '99 season. Instead of pay him $5.9M then, the Mets (banking on their Madoff returns) negotiated a deferred payment schedule using a discount rate that gave them a positive NPV. Problem was their discount rate was bogus and it ended up being a good deal for Bonilla
2) The 1991 Free agency signing - Bonilla was 28 at time of signing... 4 year tenure OPS+ was over 130, he was a 10 WAR player, 2 time allstar over 3.5 seasons and then netted them legit MLB prospects in Alex Ochoa and Damon Buford at the '95 trade deadline.
Bonilla was in no way, shape, or form the worst signing in Mets history. That's a fallacy driven by the disaster that was the collective '92-93 Mets. Could not have second guessed the Mets when they signed him, and although it didn't turn out the way they expected, the guy actually produced and had some value.
For my money the worst signings? Maybe Vince Coleman, maybe Luis Castillo... Kaz Matsui was terrible.
At the time I couldn't understand how a major league scout could look at Kaz Matsui and think he could be a MLB SS. He threw a baseball like 60 MPH.... and we displaced superstar prospect Jose Reyes for the dude!
It was the Islanders. No one noticed/cared.
Did not play terrible for the Isles the first few years, but did not perform anywhere near what he was being paid.
A little different though, he was drafted by the team and his buddy Garth Snow gave him that deal. Not really a free agent.
Also, Arrington was coming on and playing great when he got hurt if I remember correctly.
We ended up with Amare and his glass knees.
Then we ended up with Melo without a second star.
I mean... we're still recovering.
Not only that, the buyout while misunderstood by many, wasn't even horrible all things considered.
The Bonilla contract is like an IQ test, that most fail
Yup... see my post up above...
And also consider that the numbers you reference include the '99 season of 60 games with a .579 OPS and 49 OPS+... so his free agency signing stint from 92-95 was actually better than the .851/128+
I'd put David Wright as a far worse Mets signing.
Jason Bay
Cespedes
Kaz Matsui
Even Michael Cuddyer would be worse than Bonilla for me - especially when you consider the Mets lost the 14th pick in the draft in addition to signing Cuddyer - and I believe the Braves took Kolby Allard in this spot, no way of knowing who the mets would have taken, but either way, awful signing.
and this is just off the top of my head.
It's not the initial contract, it's the buyout that gets the jokes...
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being some sort of weird punchline Bobby Bonilla was nowhere near the worst signing. He posted an .851 OPS with the Mets, OPS+ of 128
It's not the initial contract, it's the buyout that gets the jokes...
I'll just say it again... the buyout has nothing to do with the Mets signing Bobby Bonilla as a free agent in 1991. That contract was traded to the Orioles in 1995 and the Orioles finished paying it in 1996.
The buyout was from his Florida Marlins contract which the Mets acquired from the Dodgers in 1998.
Carl Pavano was dogshit from the minute he signed his Yankee contract. He was AWFUL. The only saving grace was that it was only a 4 year deal.
Stephane Quintal I had (thankfully) erased from my memory, but yeah, that was pretty bad.
And this quote doesn't not take into account the Mets used this money for Mike Hampton who won the NLCS MVP with 16 (?) shutout innings leading the Mets to the World Series.
Then, Hampton signed an awful free deal with Colorado and b/c they signed Hampton the Mets got a comp pick and with it they selected David Wright. A lot of that is probably serendepitous dot connecting, but none of it happens with Bonilla on the Mets and that's a fact. The Mets most likely agreed to the Bonilla deferment with Madoff returns on their investments in mind, but knowing the outcome I'd do it again today as would the Mets and as outlined below with (for the time) standard returns on their investment it still made financial sense for the Mets.
If Bonilla had accepted the $5.9 million in 2000 and invested the entire amount at 8% interest, the original investment would have grown to $104.1 million by 2035*. If instead, Bonilla takes his annual payment and invests that with an 8% annual return, he would have $95.2 million by 2035.
But more importantly to the Mets, if they invested the $5.9 million at 8% interest in 2000. That money would have grown to more than $14 million before they had to make a single payment. And that money would continue to draw interest even while they are making payments....
And this quote doesn't not take into account the Mets used this money for Mike Hampton who won the NLCS MVP with 16 (?) shutout innings leading the Mets to the World Series.
Then, Hampton signed an awful free deal with Colorado and b/c they signed Hampton the Mets got a comp pick and with it they selected David Wright. A lot of that is probably serendepitous dot connecting, but none of it happens with Bonilla on the Mets and that's a fact. The Mets most likely agreed to the Bonilla deferment with Madoff returns on their investments in mind, but knowing the outcome I'd do it again today as would the Mets and as outlined below with (for the time) standard returns on their investment it still made financial sense for the Mets.
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To criticize the deal is to not understand that Bonilla gained nothing and the Mets actually came out ahead in the deal.
If Bonilla had accepted the $5.9 million in 2000 and invested the entire amount at 8% interest, the original investment would have grown to $104.1 million by 2035*. If instead, Bonilla takes his annual payment and invests that with an 8% annual return, he would have $95.2 million by 2035.
But more importantly to the Mets, if they invested the $5.9 million at 8% interest in 2000. That money would have grown to more than $14 million before they had to make a single payment. And that money would continue to draw interest even while they are making payments....
I can kinda forgive the average person for not understanding the concept of "time value of money"...which is why the stupid articles come out every year...
But I can't forgive people for confusing the Mets trade for Bonilla with the Mets free agency signing of Bonilla the better part of a decade prior...
Lavar Arrington as a possible for the giants.
Noah is different category. People dont just think it was a bad deal in hindsight given how bad it worked out, it was universally panned as a bad deal the day it was inked.
To get the $7 million-per-year, Arrington and the Giants agreed to load the deal with incentives, ESPN.com's John Clayton reported. Arrington, who will get a $5.25 million signing bonus, will receive a base salary worth around $3.7 million a year. With reachable incentives, Arrington can make $5 million a year and with maximum performance, he can take the deal to $49 million if he completes the seven years of his contract.
Definitely on the list of worst signings, made worse by dropping an easy game-ending pop-up.
Stoudemire
McDyess
Noah is different category. People dont just think it was a bad deal in hindsight given how bad it worked out, it was universally panned as a bad deal the day it was inked.
Not sure I agree. Most Mets fans hated the Bay signing from the day it was announced.
The Mets didn't want to pony up the cash for Matt Holliday, so they settled for Bay and they tried that whole PR campaign with the spray chart HR bullshit.
but regardless, I think the outcome in most cases makes the signings good or bad, it's all second guessing for a thread like this.
I also think blaming his entire Mets rapid decline on one concussion in his first Mets season is unproven speculation by Terry Collins (and others).
they didn't win a bidding war for Irabu. They had to trade for him. He pitched ok for them at times (two time pitcher of the month) and then they were able to get a solid return for him when they traded him (Lilly and Westbrook).
My impression was that was a total waste of $250 million
Stoudemire
McDyess
Mcdyess doesnt count. That was a terrible injury
Not sure I agree. Most Mets fans hated the Bay signing from the day it was announced.
The Mets didn't want to pony up the cash for Matt Holliday, so they settled for Bay and they tried that whole PR campaign with the spray chart HR bullshit.
but regardless, I think the outcome in most cases makes the signings good or bad, it's all second guessing for a thread like this.
I also think blaming his entire Mets rapid decline on one concussion in his first Mets season is unproven speculation by Terry Collins (and others).
Well never know for sure if the concussion was the cause or not. But one concussion or not, it was clearly a very serious one as he missed half a season due to it.
But regardless of the cause, no one was projecting Bays fast decline. Yes, many Met fans were sour on the signing, but not because they thought Bay would be a disaster. It was because they wanted the Mets to spend more to get Holliday instead. And I think that frames fans feeling about the Bay signing.
at the time of the signing Kaz Matsui was the next Derek Jeter, Hideki Irabu was the next Roger Clemens, all these free agents (for the most part) were good signings when they were made.
Injuries, poor play, and other factors led to their demise.
at the time of the signing Kaz Matsui was the next Derek Jeter, Hideki Irabu was the next Roger Clemens, all these free agents (for the most part) were good signings when they were made.
Injuries, poor play, and other factors led to their demise.
I guess, but Noah was the frame of reference and that certainly was not a case where no one thought it would go bad, Basically everyone other than Phil Jackson thought it was a stupid signing before the ink was dry.
The re-signing of A-Rod I think is another good example of a contract that most thought was bad when it was made. Re-signing Carmelo with the no trade clause was also widely panned.
at the time of the signing Kaz Matsui was the next Derek Jeter, Hideki Irabu was the next Roger Clemens, all these free agents (for the most part) were good signings when they were made.
Injuries, poor play, and other factors led to their demise.
Kaz Matsui was hyped to be that and the stats were impressive, but this was before the days of YouTube. Took one time seeing him throw a baseball to realize he wasn't a major league caliber athlete..took more than 1 AB to realize he wasnt a hitter either ..debut was pretty impressive, then all down hill from there ;)
In 2000 the interest rate on a 10-yar CD was almost 7% - but if you invested over $5M I think it's reasonable to think you could get 8%.
He made the big club during the 197475 season, and despite suffering injuries that restricted him to 47 games, scored 22 goals in that limited time. The following season was not as spectacular, as he scored 24 goals in 77 games while showing defensive deficiencies.
Middleton was traded to the Boston Bruins for Ken Hodge on May 26, 1976. Rangers head coach and general manager John Ferguson Sr. was confident that his team had enough young talent to justify making Middleton expendable. What the Bruins got was a player who was ten years younger and a swifter skater than Hodge.[1] The transaction became even more one-sided in favor of the Bruins when head coach Don Cherry developed Middleton's defensive skills to make him a solid two-way player.[2] Hodge played only a single season more before his career ended, while Middleton became a great star in Boston, scoring a hat trick in his first game as a Bruin and nearly nine hundred points in a Bruins uniform over the next twelve years. Generally paired with centre Barry Pederson, Middleton had five straight seasons of at least forty goals and ninety points and led the Bruins to perennial glittering records. His leadership was apparent in being named co-captain (with Ray Bourque) to succeed Terry O'Reilly in 1985, a position he held until he retired, wearing the "C" during home games. Regarded as one of the best one on one players of all time and currently ranks #2 all time in career shooting percentage (19.7) among players with 400+ goals.
His best season was the 198182 season, during which Middleton scored a career high 51 goals, won the Lady Byng Trophy for excellence and sportsmanship, and was named to the NHL's Second All-Star Team. The following season he led the Bruins to the league's best regular season record, and set unbroken records that year for the most points scored in the playoffs by a player not advancing to the finals (33) and for a single playoff series (19, in the quarterfinals against Buffalo). His 105 points in the 198384 season tied Ken Hodge's team record for most points scored in a season by a right winger, and remains unbroken.
Middleton also starred in international play, being named to play for Team Canada in the Canada Cup in 1981 and 1984. Teamed on a line with Wayne Gretzky and Michel Goulet in the 1984 series, he scored four goals and four assists in seven games. Further, Middleton played in the NHL All-Star Game in 1981, 1982 and 1984.
On November 29, 2018 the Boston Bruins retired Middleton's #16 before a game against the New York Islanders at TD Garden.
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A right winger, Middleton was drafted in the first round, 14th overall, by the Rangers in the 1973 NHL Amateur Draft after a glittering junior career with the Oshawa Generals in which he led his league in scoring his final year and was named to the league's Second All-Star Team. He spent the 197374 season with the Rangers' farm team, the AHL Providence Reds, earning rookie of the year honors and being named to the AHL's First All-Star Team.
He made the big club during the 197475 season, and despite suffering injuries that restricted him to 47 games, scored 22 goals in that limited time. The following season was not as spectacular, as he scored 24 goals in 77 games while showing defensive deficiencies.
Middleton was traded to the Boston Bruins for Ken Hodge on May 26, 1976. Rangers head coach and general manager John Ferguson Sr. was confident that his team had enough young talent to justify making Middleton expendable. What the Bruins got was a player who was ten years younger and a swifter skater than Hodge.[1] The transaction became even more one-sided in favor of the Bruins when head coach Don Cherry developed Middleton's defensive skills to make him a solid two-way player.[2] Hodge played only a single season more before his career ended, while Middleton became a great star in Boston, scoring a hat trick in his first game as a Bruin and nearly nine hundred points in a Bruins uniform over the next twelve years. Generally paired with centre Barry Pederson, Middleton had five straight seasons of at least forty goals and ninety points and led the Bruins to perennial glittering records. His leadership was apparent in being named co-captain (with Ray Bourque) to succeed Terry O'Reilly in 1985, a position he held until he retired, wearing the "C" during home games. Regarded as one of the best one on one players of all time and currently ranks #2 all time in career shooting percentage (19.7) among players with 400+ goals.
His best season was the 198182 season, during which Middleton scored a career high 51 goals, won the Lady Byng Trophy for excellence and sportsmanship, and was named to the NHL's Second All-Star Team. The following season he led the Bruins to the league's best regular season record, and set unbroken records that year for the most points scored in the playoffs by a player not advancing to the finals (33) and for a single playoff series (19, in the quarterfinals against Buffalo). His 105 points in the 198384 season tied Ken Hodge's team record for most points scored in a season by a right winger, and remains unbroken.
Middleton also starred in international play, being named to play for Team Canada in the Canada Cup in 1981 and 1984. Teamed on a line with Wayne Gretzky and Michel Goulet in the 1984 series, he scored four goals and four assists in seven games. Further, Middleton played in the NHL All-Star Game in 1981, 1982 and 1984.
On November 29, 2018 the Boston Bruins retired Middleton's #16 before a game against the New York Islanders at TD Garden.
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Couldnt agree more.
I think Espo put the pressure on Ferguson to make that trade for his ex wing Hodge. He wanted Bucyk too lol
The Mets were getting ridiculous returns at the time from their trusted advisor Bernard L. Madoff
Still..I've said it like 5 times in this thread...the Bonilla deferall deal has NOTHING to do with the Bonilla free agent signing. The contract the Mets signed Bonilla to was fully paid off in 1996.. the deferal payments are for his Marlins deal..
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But I don't know too many people making 8-11% annual returns since 2001... my portfolio sure as fuck hasn't done that well unfortunately
The Mets were getting ridiculous returns at the time from their trusted advisor Bernard L. Madoff
Still..I've said it like 5 times in this thread...the Bonilla deferall deal has NOTHING to do with the Bonilla free agent signing. The contract the Mets signed Bonilla to was fully paid off in 1996.. the deferal payments are for his Marlins deal..
You can say it 20x for all I care. The reality is they signed a bust... then re-traded for that same player years later despite initial mistake ... then basically took out a loan on current payroll which is just stupid business.
Bonilla also owes his agent a nice bottle of wine and a vacation every time that check comes in. Unbelievable business deal for him.
he wasn't
The Giants protected themselves with that contract. It was a large deal but it had an option after year 1 IIRC.