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Sad Takeaways

Rafflee : 12/17/2018 10:05 am
The Right Side of the OL looked especially Horrible--- Maybe the Game film will show differently, but Wheeler was a disaster

The Giants got pushed around on the defensive interior---the "Missed tackles" harping is mostly a results of being driven backwards---it's a tough position to make to make a tackle.

They did not force Marcus to be a Pocket Passer---his least preference. Edge Rushers pinched and allowed him to play in his comfy zone. Basic Defense..Art of War.... Guerrilla Tactics...Don't Confront Your Enemy at his position of Comfort and Strength.

The defense couldn't get off the field--the offense couldn't stay on the field.... the 7-0 deficit was a gift unopened.

Just depressing all around...they owed themselves a better effort, and the outcome was there to achieve.

The way they were getting blown off the ball....  
Britt in VA : 12/17/2018 10:06 am : link
7-0 felt insurmountable even late in the game.
RE: The way they were getting blown off the ball....  
Jints in Carolina : 12/17/2018 10:09 am : link
In comment 14222953 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
7-0 felt insurmountable even late in the game.


agreed....i said the same thing to my friends at the bar.

Wheeler was blown the fuck up on numerous plays.
Biggest take aways:  
The_Boss : 12/17/2018 10:11 am : link
OL stinks from Center to the right
Front 7 cannot stop the run. At what point does that fall on Tomlinson and Hill?
The QB is cooked.
Takeaways...  
Dan in the Springs : 12/17/2018 10:17 am : link
the run game was a disaster on both sides of the ball.

The OL was overwhelmed by a hungrier team. The weather didn't help them sustain drives - lots of dropped passes early on.

The defensive front did a decent job at times of getting to the runner in the backfield. Our smaller secondary was in position to make several tackles which could have helped get the ball back to the offense. Landon Collins was sorely missed. Yesterday was exactly the kind of game that he would have excelled in, imo.

In short (and I haven't watched the coaches tape yet) the defensive scheme seemed sound but the players weren't up to the task of stopping a very strong run game featuring a very strong and determined runner.

We aren't as bad a team as we appeared to be yesterday, just like we weren't as good a team as we had appeared to be the week before.
RE: Biggest take aways:  
superspynyg : 12/17/2018 10:17 am : link
In comment 14222973 The_Boss said:
Quote:
OL stinks from Center to the right
Front 7 cannot stop the run. At what point does that fall on Tomlinson and Hill?
The QB is cooked.


Really only the Center and RT were bad. Brown was fine but cannot protect the whole right side himself. We knew this

What do you expect with the run game when you trade away one of the top run stuffers in the NFL.

The qb is not cooked but when half the line collapses and your star wr is out against a team with a tough front 7 what do you expect to happen?

Giants got punched in the mouth early  
Paulie Walnuts : 12/17/2018 10:46 am : link
And didnt want any of it.. big, punishing RB, and poor weather.. these games used to be our bread and butter.."Giants Weather", cold, rainy, boring, physically beat the other team into quitting and score 17 points...i miss those days.
Curtis Riley  
larryinnewhaven : 12/17/2018 11:19 am : link
couldn't tackle Bea Arthur at this point
He couldn't  
PaulN : 12/17/2018 11:26 am : link
He couldn't tackle Hazel, he sucks. They need a real free safety more then cornerback even.
RE: Curtis Riley  
Eli Wilson : 12/17/2018 11:31 am : link
In comment 14223164 larryinnewhaven said:
Quote:
couldn't tackle Bea Arthur at this point


Riley (and many others) kept trying to tackle Henry up around the shoulders. Probably the worst possible way to tackle a RB going about 240+ pounds. I learned early on to hit those guys down around the knee area and hold on for dear life when necessary.
Eli Wilson  
beatrixkiddo : 12/17/2018 11:46 am : link
I kept thinking the same thing all game, I was disappointed with how ill prepared they were to not know how to take out a big RB like Henry. Do what defenses did to Jacobs and take out the legs, they kept trying to pull him down and he repeatedly got 5 yards or more a carry. Not sure who that falls on the HC, DC, or players, but I couldn't believe they didn't even make an adjustment.
Gettleman strategy  
mdc1 : 12/17/2018 11:53 am : link
Was to build a team for this type of game.

FAIL
RE: Gettleman strategy  
Racer : 12/17/2018 11:58 am : link
In comment 14223254 mdc1 said:
Quote:
Was to build a team for this type of game.

FAIL


In one offseason? Fatman is orbiting the battlefield looking to drop a verbal MOAB on guys like you. Stay alert.
blown off the line?  
bc4life : 12/17/2018 12:02 pm : link
there were several instances of them getting to Henry in the backfield or meeting him at the line of scrimmage and failing to make a tackle
RE: Biggest take aways:  
WillVAB : 12/17/2018 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14222973 The_Boss said:
Quote:
OL stinks from Center to the right
Front 7 cannot stop the run. At what point does that fall on Tomlinson and Hill?
The QB is cooked.


The LBs are terrible. I wouldn’t put that all on Hill and Tomlinson.
Dan in theSprings  
bc4life : 12/17/2018 12:03 pm : link
Yep, was thinking about Collins all game long.
Shutout at home against the Titans.  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/17/2018 12:04 pm : link
.
That is true.....  
Doomster : 12/17/2018 12:54 pm : link
Curtis Riley
larryinnewhaven : 11:19 am : link : reply
couldn't tackle Bea Arthur at this point

Maybe 9 years ago, he could....
I watched  
mrvax : 12/17/2018 1:25 pm : link
Janoris Jenkins make several so called business decisions allowing extra yards for the Titans.

Cutting him next year would cost $7M in dead money but save $7.75M at the same time.

I can see DG making that move along with saying goodbye to Vernon.


RE: RE: Gettleman strategy  
NoGainDayne : 12/17/2018 1:35 pm : link
In comment 14223262 Racer said:
Quote:
In comment 14223254 mdc1 said:


Quote:


Was to build a team for this type of game.

FAIL



In one offseason? Fatman is orbiting the battlefield looking to drop a verbal MOAB on guys like you. Stay alert.


Oh god anyone critical of the team should be quaking in their boots. Give me a break. Gettleman has done a shit job. None shittier than not having cohesive strategy. Oh great, you are going to give away a player that changes a phase of the game for nothing and still try to make a playoff push. That's stupid in addition to the many bad decisions he made in the past off-season. This has been a painful season to watch from a coaching and management perspective alone.
Wheeler  
skifaster : 12/17/2018 10:26 pm : link
I sure looked like Wheeler is playing through an injury
RE: RE: RE: Gettleman strategy  
Racer : 12/18/2018 10:29 am : link
In comment 14223469 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 14223262 Racer said:


Quote:


In comment 14223254 mdc1 said:


Quote:


Was to build a team for this type of game.

FAIL



In one offseason? Fatman is orbiting the battlefield looking to drop a verbal MOAB on guys like you. Stay alert.



Oh god anyone critical of the team should be quaking in their boots. Give me a break. Gettleman has done a shit job. None shittier than not having cohesive strategy. Oh great, you are going to give away a player that changes a phase of the game for nothing and still try to make a playoff push. That's stupid in addition to the many bad decisions he made in the past off-season. This has been a painful season to watch from a coaching and management perspective alone.


Go read every post by JonC and the other level-headed, football-knowledge heavy posters around here for the last several months and tell me if you still think you're on the right side of this.

Nobody turns over this many roster spots and looks good. Particularly with a 38y old mid-line throwing QB.
Jesus..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/18/2018 10:44 am : link
how can so many people follow this team and still not have a fucking clue??

Quote:
Gettleman has done a shit job. None shittier than not having cohesive strategy. Oh great, you are going to give away a player that changes a phase of the game for nothing and still try to make a playoff push.


Apple and Snacks were moved as much for their attitudes as for anything else, and what is the bullshit line about "making a playoff push"??

Those guys were traded when we were 1-7. There is a strategy:
- Rid the team of malcontents
- Build the lines
- Establish the run

you can argue with the plan, but for fuck's sake, Gettleman turned over the roster by 70%, the starters by over half and people expected this year to be filled with hardware? The rest of the board shouldn't have to suffer because some people can't fucking grasp what has happened.
Pulley got abused by Jurrell Casey.  
mittenedman : 12/18/2018 11:03 am : link
Casey's probably the most underrated DT in football. An Aaron Donald-lite. Incredibly disruptive player who ruined the game for the Giants.
RE: Jesus..  
NoGainDayne : 12/18/2018 4:09 pm : link
In comment 14224604 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
how can so many people follow this team and still not have a fucking clue??



Quote:


Gettleman has done a shit job. None shittier than not having cohesive strategy. Oh great, you are going to give away a player that changes a phase of the game for nothing and still try to make a playoff push.



Apple and Snacks were moved as much for their attitudes as for anything else, and what is the bullshit line about "making a playoff push"??

Those guys were traded when we were 1-7. There is a strategy:
- Rid the team of malcontents
- Build the lines
- Establish the run

you can argue with the plan, but for fuck's sake, Gettleman turned over the roster by 70%, the starters by over half and people expected this year to be filled with hardware? The rest of the board shouldn't have to suffer because some people can't fucking grasp what has happened.


Lol i'm the one with no clue. I'll engage with more of your shitty points later but for now here is one.

"Rid the team of the malcontents"

Ok let's see.

JPP, DRC, Pugh, Flowers, Apple, Snacks, Jackrabbit i've all seen labeled malcontents.

Apple looked pretty f'in good last night btw.

Can you name another team with so many "malcontents" ?That's 4 first round picks in there two of them top 10. People hand picked by the scouting department and leadership still largely in place. Even if you are suggesting there is something wrong with all these players attitudes for some reason this team decided to invest heavy resources in all of them. So we either have a serious talent development or evaluation problem or both and you don't just switch out one or two guys and solve a problem that severe.

Do you know what confuses me the most? How people can still talk with this superior tone for questioning an organization that very clearly has problems. Why is it me that doesn't have a clue when you are the one defending a leadership group with such poor results in the last 7 years?

This is why i'm addressing this singular part until I have time to dissect the rest of your BS. If the number of "malcontents" in your organization numbers many, your organization is the problem. You know what breeds malcontents? Poor leadership. Story as old as time.





RE: RE: RE: RE: Gettleman strategy  
NoGainDayne : 12/18/2018 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14224570 Racer said:
Quote:
In comment 14223469 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


In comment 14223262 Racer said:


Quote:


In comment 14223254 mdc1 said:


Quote:


Was to build a team for this type of game.

FAIL



In one offseason? Fatman is orbiting the battlefield looking to drop a verbal MOAB on guys like you. Stay alert.



Oh god anyone critical of the team should be quaking in their boots. Give me a break. Gettleman has done a shit job. None shittier than not having cohesive strategy. Oh great, you are going to give away a player that changes a phase of the game for nothing and still try to make a playoff push. That's stupid in addition to the many bad decisions he made in the past off-season. This has been a painful season to watch from a coaching and management perspective alone.



Go read every post by JonC and the other level-headed, football-knowledge heavy posters around here for the last several months and tell me if you still think you're on the right side of this.

Nobody turns over this many roster spots and looks good. Particularly with a 38y old mid-line throwing QB.


Oh good you can't even fight your own battles. Lean on other people's supposed support of your side, great debating. I respect JonC and would be happy to discuss my points with him should he so choose.

In the mean time you or FMiC can still feel free to debate the merits of his hiring on this thread, where last he was seen I responded to every one of his points on why the move to hire Gettleman was suspect at best.
Gettleman and Ownership thread - ( New Window )
You really lost me here..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/18/2018 4:29 pm : link
Quote:
Ok let's see.

JPP, DRC, Pugh, Flowers, Apple, Snacks, Jackrabbit i've all seen labeled malcontents.

Apple looked pretty f'in good last night btw.


Yes - all those players have been labeled as malcontents, and JonC has inferred a number of times that the FO was not happy with the attitudes of those players.

Also, Apple plays decently one game and it is used as evidence of a bad move??

you do realize he is the worst DB in the NFL for QBR against and penalties, right?
RE: You really lost me here..  
NoGainDayne : 12/18/2018 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14225187 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


Ok let's see.

JPP, DRC, Pugh, Flowers, Apple, Snacks, Jackrabbit i've all seen labeled malcontents.

Apple looked pretty f'in good last night btw.



Yes - all those players have been labeled as malcontents, and JonC has inferred a number of times that the FO was not happy with the attitudes of those players.

Also, Apple plays decently one game and it is used as evidence of a bad move??

you do realize he is the worst DB in the NFL for QBR against and penalties, right?


Ok yes, they weren't happy with the attitudes of all these players. Maybe some foresight should be expected from these professionals at talent evaluation? Again, if there were more turnover it would be a different story but the people that scouted these players and signed off on these moves at the top are still in that building. Why do they get a pass for drafting these malcontents in the first round and signing them to major free agent deals?

We don't need to get into a big Apple debate, i'm just saying the talent is there and that is undeniably a shitty ROI we got on him. The above point is much more relevant.
Turning over the roster isn't a plan  
Go Terps : 12/18/2018 4:33 pm : link
.
RE: Turning over the roster isn't a plan  
NoGainDayne : 12/18/2018 4:57 pm : link
In comment 14225191 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.


Especially when you are cutting a guy in the same season you gave a $15M contract to that player. Is there any precedent for that? Can you find me another example of that happening?

My problem with the Gettlemen defenders is it seems like rhetoric that would come straight from the mouth of someone scrambling to justify why they aren't doing a shitty job and grasping at straws. These people that he brought in were all handpicked by him to supposedly change things for the better. I saw someone else write about this an the arrogance in the posters seems to be the same problem with the arrogance of the organization and the Giants way. What looks like the Giants way the last 5 years is apparently bringing in people with attitude problems and then labeling them as the problem despite the fact that you chose them. Choosing different scape goats every year while most of the people responsible for the mess retain their jobs, rinse, repeat. Oh yeah, and don't forget to maintain that arrogance regardless of how bad it gets.

I think I need to link this Gettleman clip again. Because it really sums up the problems with the whole organization perfectly.

Mock analytics. Talk about how your eyes can see that Jonathan Stewart "hasn't lost a step." Jonathan Stewart loses all the steps. Maintain arrogance.

Now I think I need to explain this again for some of our posters that actually don't have a clue. The day of the singular person pretending that they have all the answers is over. You are as good as the team you build under you and in today's world if you are generating numbers that better be an amazing computer science and math team. When you act like Gettleman does in this clip you don't build a good team under you and you fall further and further behind. Even if he was hitting on all these moves this would still be an issue. Our boat is taking on water with a hole in it and we hired the guy that can confidently say he's got one of the best hole plugging thumbs in the world. Other teams are building high tech modern shipyards and you guys just want to talk about how this guy plugging the hole with his thumb who hasn't even shown to be very adept at that needs more time to show he's the best at that.

Whether or not he might be able to do better than this with his old ways of thinking and attitude isn't even the issue. You are missing the point, much like Gettleman and our ownership.

Oh yeah and calling me the stupid one while you are at it LOL. If you want to be a luddite Gettleman apologist you should do it with your luddite friends and family. Quit trying to sway others to a viewpoint that only hurts this team long term with the same arrogance and bravado Gettleman uses to convince people that his leadership and decision making style is even remotely as effective as other more modern ones which favor technology, ubiquity of information, being a resource to the people that work for you instead of the gruff overbearing asshole people describe him as.
Gettleman Arrogance - ( New Window )
Do some..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/18/2018 5:09 pm : link
research. Gettleman upgraded the analytics department in Carolina significantly. It didn't exist prior to him - it was outsourced.

He also helped his protege, Brandon Beane, do the same in Buffalo.

But carry on. Ignorance has no bounds.
RE: Do some..  
Go Terps : 12/18/2018 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14225238 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
research. Gettleman upgraded the analytics department in Carolina significantly. It didn't exist prior to him - it was outsourced.

He also helped his protege, Brandon Beane, do the same in Buffalo.

But carry on. Ignorance has no bounds.


Do you have any details as to what they were doing with Gettleman's department vs. the outsourced service?

Just because it was outsourced doesn't make it worse. For all we know he did it as a cost cutting measure.
RE: Do some..  
NoGainDayne : 12/18/2018 5:41 pm : link
In comment 14225238 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
research. Gettleman upgraded the analytics department in Carolina significantly. It didn't exist prior to him - it was outsourced.

He also helped his protege, Brandon Beane, do the same in Buffalo.

But carry on. Ignorance has no bounds.


Ok first of all someone that respects the value of analytics doesn't talk like that ever, not even jokingly.

Also I already refuted this on the thread I linked above.

Here it is again. Your points were well addressed there. Did you forget?

Just respond there if you have any new information. Because I already addressed this line of defense.
You already tried this argument... - ( New Window )
I struggle to understand...  
Dan in the Springs : 12/18/2018 5:51 pm : link
why the insistence of stating that it's the same people at the top of this org for 7 years now. We just experienced a pretty significant change at the top football decision-making positions in the org. Unless you believe the Mara/Tisch families have become Jerry Jones and are secretly running the show as GM, the new guy has been in place for less than a year. Same with the coach.

Pointing to things like signing and cutting Omameh as a sign of incompetence or a lack of direction is misguided imo. It's a sign of a leader at the top who isn't going to double down on an obvious mistake, and who has the confidence to accept that mistake. Are we to think that:

1. Winning GM's don't make FA signing mistakes?
2. It is better to keep a mistake on your 53-man roster than to drop him and keep looking?

RE: I struggle to understand...  
NoGainDayne : 12/18/2018 6:07 pm : link
In comment 14225283 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
why the insistence of stating that it's the same people at the top of this org for 7 years now. We just experienced a pretty significant change at the top football decision-making positions in the org. Unless you believe the Mara/Tisch families have become Jerry Jones and are secretly running the show as GM, the new guy has been in place for less than a year. Same with the coach.

Pointing to things like signing and cutting Omameh as a sign of incompetence or a lack of direction is misguided imo. It's a sign of a leader at the top who isn't going to double down on an obvious mistake, and who has the confidence to accept that mistake. Are we to think that:

1. Winning GM's don't make FA signing mistakes?
2. It is better to keep a mistake on your 53-man roster than to drop him and keep looking?


I'm not sure if you read the thread I posted but my biggest problems with Gettleman are his dated attitude towards leadership and what that means for attracting talent and the lack of a cohesive strategy. I posted two prime examples of this in a thread yesterday

Quote:
1) Not putting OBJ back for the punt return the first game of the season and then making him a full time punt returner a few games later. Either he should be back there with the game on the line or he is too important to be back there. Pick one. It screamed desperation when they made the move to put him at punt returner later in the season.

2) I was against trading Snacks for a 5th round pick at the time and seeing how the season plays out makes this a vomit inducing move. Really nauseating. If you are going to trade the best player in one of the 4 main phases of the game you should get a return more than a 5th round pick. And IF you are going to trade that guy, especially for a paltry return like that it better be because you are throwing in the season. What were we playing Eli and trying to win games for? If you are going to make that trade be prepared to play Lauletta. Or have someone new you want to try with the offense. I'm sorry to say this but even a sack of shit like Geno Smith, a different kind of QB is a better idea to see if the team can do better than playing a guy that is on the brink of retirement when you are 1-7 and traded away one of your best players, an all-pro player. When your season is looking like that is the time you see if some new blood at QB can make a difference and fine if you want to say they made a mistake on Lauletta, but why do they get a pass on that? That was their guy. And why not Webb instead of Tanney or anyone else you think might be worth a shot. Fine whatever say Apple was a malcontent like Flowers and JPP and whoever fine. All guys by the way that a regime extremely similar to this one chose. Reese was not operating alone. But Snacks was a guy that helps you win games and trading him for nothing and then beating crap teams with a QB that isn't part of your future has to make you ask what the hell is our overall strategy here?


There are other examples I can think of, one constant is the continued lack of simple applied mathematics in clock management. Our ability to select head coaches in general seems suspect. Pointing out Omameh as unprecedented is extremely relevant to this discussion as it is absolutely a sign of extreme ineptitude. There are many bad free agent signings but few SO bad that a 3 year contract can't survive it's first season.

There wasn't even a glimmer of, hey, maybe this guy can turn it around? We thought he was worth $15 million and 8 games later we'd prefer someone let go by another team.

I'm sorry that's not "gutsy" or courageous like some are making it out to be it's inept to a level that stands out.
Yes..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/18/2018 6:10 pm : link
there are details:

Quote:
Do you have any details as to what they were doing with Gettleman's department vs. the outsourced service?

Just because it was outsourced doesn't make it worse. For all we know he did it as a cost cutting measure.


If you want to look at a guy who didn't use analytics - look to Marty Hurney. When he was in Carolina, they had one analyst. He actually went through PFF's paid service. It was very bare bones. From an article when Gettleman was brought on board:

Quote:
Carolina is older school in their setup—director of team administration Rob Rogers, who manages the cap, oversees analytics, and the club pulls from services like PFF. But the Panthers are now forward-thinking in integrating the information with coaching and scouting, despite being an organization that has two guys with old-school résumés running the show: head coach Ron Rivera (who has bought into fourth-down theory) and GM Dave Gettleman (who dispatches two employees to the Sloan Conference every year). The team has worked to develop its own system in-house with a staff that includes two full-time analysts, three full-time developers and three others with analytics prominent among their duties.


In the context of the question he was asked, I can completely see why Gettleman was flippant. I know it goes against what people want to believe, so they stubbornly hold to the notion that Gettleman uses an abacus and mocks analysts as being nerds, but it is less out of reality and more for the increasingly bizarre use to shit on him.

Honestly, some of the takes people have aren't just illogical - but they are truly knee-jerk and moronic.
RE: Yes..  
NoGainDayne : 12/18/2018 6:20 pm : link
In comment 14225302 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
there are details:



Quote:


Do you have any details as to what they were doing with Gettleman's department vs. the outsourced service?

Just because it was outsourced doesn't make it worse. For all we know he did it as a cost cutting measure.



If you want to look at a guy who didn't use analytics - look to Marty Hurney. When he was in Carolina, they had one analyst. He actually went through PFF's paid service. It was very bare bones. From an article when Gettleman was brought on board:



Quote:


Carolina is older school in their setup—director of team administration Rob Rogers, who manages the cap, oversees analytics, and the club pulls from services like PFF. But the Panthers are now forward-thinking in integrating the information with coaching and scouting, despite being an organization that has two guys with old-school résumés running the show: head coach Ron Rivera (who has bought into fourth-down theory) and GM Dave Gettleman (who dispatches two employees to the Sloan Conference every year). The team has worked to develop its own system in-house with a staff that includes two full-time analysts, three full-time developers and three others with analytics prominent among their duties.



In the context of the question he was asked, I can completely see why Gettleman was flippant. I know it goes against what people want to believe, so they stubbornly hold to the notion that Gettleman uses an abacus and mocks analysts as being nerds, but it is less out of reality and more for the increasingly bizarre use to shit on him.

Honestly, some of the takes people have aren't just illogical - but they are truly knee-jerk and moronic.


Let's try this for a moronic take. Who in the Giants organizations understands databases? Let alone algorithms? Complex analysis pipelines?

A lot of organizations spend millions on software and systems. It doesn't make them good. How many of these places rely on a 68 year old to overhaul this process do you think?

I addressed this all in the linked thread. Stop pretending like you have answers for questions that you don't.
RE: RE: I struggle to understand...  
Dan in the Springs : 12/18/2018 6:35 pm : link
In comment 14225292 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:

There are other examples I can think of, one constant is the continued lack of simple applied mathematics in clock management. Our ability to select head coaches in general seems suspect. Pointing out Omameh as unprecedented is extremely relevant to this discussion as it is absolutely a sign of extreme ineptitude. There are many bad free agent signings but few SO bad that a 3 year contract can't survive it's first season.

There wasn't even a glimmer of, hey, maybe this guy can turn it around? We thought he was worth $15 million and 8 games later we'd prefer someone let go by another team.

I'm sorry that's not "gutsy" or courageous like some are making it out to be it's inept to a level that stands out.


I shortened your quote for readability. I did not read the entire thread you posted - too busy to read right now. Perhaps I'll do that later.

I'm a math major and also have an MBA. I teach math and computer science. I believe in analytics, not opposed to them. But I know enough to know that playing the percentages works better in baseball over 162 games than in football in 16. I know that models and algorithms that haven't been proven are not infallible, and only through iteration can they become close to accurate.

I know some fans buy wholly into using the math models to make all key decisions, but I don't know any team in the NFL that is doing that today.

As far as I can tell, all NFL teams are working on gaining advantages by learning what they can from the data in each scenario. They are then using the model's output to inform each decision. But as far as I can tell, all NFL teams are still allowing each coach to make those calls during the game.

And as far as I can tell, there isn't a single infallible coach in the league.

It kills me when we find mistakes in the coach's game and point that out as evidence of a poor hire, as though there are any coaches out there who would be mistake-free. I'm pretty sure almost any coach in the NFL would admit to making mistakes. I wouldn't evaluate anyone on my staff based on whether they ever made a mistake. There are a set of criteria established for evaluating performance. Over time I'm open to discussing the performance of everyone in the organization, but it seems some were done with this coach and GM after just four games. Some were done with them before their initial press conferences.
That I don't get.

I also don't get blaming the GM for the coach's in-game decisions, which you seem to be doing.

I'm not entirely sold that DG and PS are the solution. I will make that decision when enough data is there for me to evaluate properly.
RE: RE: RE: I struggle to understand...  
NoGainDayne : 12/18/2018 6:40 pm : link
In comment 14225317 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
In comment 14225292 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:



There are other examples I can think of, one constant is the continued lack of simple applied mathematics in clock management. Our ability to select head coaches in general seems suspect. Pointing out Omameh as unprecedented is extremely relevant to this discussion as it is absolutely a sign of extreme ineptitude. There are many bad free agent signings but few SO bad that a 3 year contract can't survive it's first season.

There wasn't even a glimmer of, hey, maybe this guy can turn it around? We thought he was worth $15 million and 8 games later we'd prefer someone let go by another team.

I'm sorry that's not "gutsy" or courageous like some are making it out to be it's inept to a level that stands out.



I shortened your quote for readability. I did not read the entire thread you posted - too busy to read right now. Perhaps I'll do that later.

I'm a math major and also have an MBA. I teach math and computer science. I believe in analytics, not opposed to them. But I know enough to know that playing the percentages works better in baseball over 162 games than in football in 16. I know that models and algorithms that haven't been proven are not infallible, and only through iteration can they become close to accurate.

I know some fans buy wholly into using the math models to make all key decisions, but I don't know any team in the NFL that is doing that today.

As far as I can tell, all NFL teams are working on gaining advantages by learning what they can from the data in each scenario. They are then using the model's output to inform each decision. But as far as I can tell, all NFL teams are still allowing each coach to make those calls during the game.

And as far as I can tell, there isn't a single infallible coach in the league.

It kills me when we find mistakes in the coach's game and point that out as evidence of a poor hire, as though there are any coaches out there who would be mistake-free. I'm pretty sure almost any coach in the NFL would admit to making mistakes. I wouldn't evaluate anyone on my staff based on whether they ever made a mistake. There are a set of criteria established for evaluating performance. Over time I'm open to discussing the performance of everyone in the organization, but it seems some were done with this coach and GM after just four games. Some were done with them before their initial press conferences.
That I don't get.

I also don't get blaming the GM for the coach's in-game decisions, which you seem to be doing.

I'm not entirely sold that DG and PS are the solution. I will make that decision when enough data is there for me to evaluate properly.


Ok well I look forward to your take on the thread. There is a section of it where I go into specifically what the Patriots are doing as well as an impressive autoencoding algorithm they seem to have. And I do believe that having the right data is the start, we don't seem to have anyone with expertise in data engineering. I highlight how the Steelers made a hire like that a few years ago. Algorithms aren't a magic bullet by any means but well thought out analysis pipelines help in any decision making process and we haven't demonstrated any commitment to bringing someone in that understands how they are built.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/18/2018 6:41 pm : link
The moronic take is being shown evidence of what has been done and then saying it probably isn't any good because it was entrusted to a 68-year old guy.

Quote:
Let's try this for a moronic take. Who in the Giants organizations understands databases? Let alone algorithms? Complex analysis pipelines?

A lot of organizations spend millions on software and systems. It doesn't make them good. How many of these places rely on a 68 year old to overhaul this process do you think?

I addressed this all in the linked thread. Stop pretending like you have answers for questions that you don't.


I'm not pretending that I have answers - I'm showing you what I have seen from his time in Carolina. You just have a lot of ridiculous accusations. I'm still not sure what answers you are looking for and why you keep referring to that thread as an example of negligence.

RE: RE: Yes..  
Dan in the Springs : 12/18/2018 6:44 pm : link
In comment 14225309 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:

Let's try this for a moronic take. Who in the Giants organizations understands databases? Let alone algorithms? Complex analysis pipelines?

A lot of organizations spend millions on software and systems. It doesn't make them good. How many of these places rely on a 68 year old to overhaul this process do you think?

I addressed this all in the linked thread. Stop pretending like you have answers for questions that you don't.


Any good org chart will have chiefs with experience at the head of every division. The CEO then orchestrates the strategy based on the input from division chiefs. It isn't a requirement that a CEO understand all the analytics, as you suggest. What's important for the CEO is to find the best, most competent minds for each division, to learn all they can from them, and to build a strategy for the organization that takes in that input but is based on their industry experience.

DG has an accomplished track record in the industry. If you disagree with that I wish you'd just say it, then we'd have little to discuss. If you accept his track record then we can talk about the issues you have with his use of analytics in particular, but I think a proper evaluation of that requires far more insight to what's happening within the org than anyone on this site knows or is able to discuss freely. It's certainly beyond my pay scale as a fan.
And in full transparency..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/18/2018 6:47 pm : link
I have no visibility as to what the Giants do, or even if Gettleman is controlling the analytics team.

But to say he craps on analytics because of a flippant comment and ignoring what he did in Carolina is simply being obtuse.
I also go talk about in that thread who  
NoGainDayne : 12/18/2018 7:02 pm : link
they talk about as a rising star in their analytics department and who they have on staff. Nobody in the organization has an understanding of even databases to anyone's knowledge.

I also think the league is changing and you read about what the Eagles or Pats are doing and nothing about the Giants. I talk about all of this in that thread.

I point to that thread because I put a lot of work into it to show that there is ample evidence that the Giants approach seems to be behind other teams. Part of the concern comes from the idea that these ideas should be beyond us as fans. If we had an analytics program that was respected, the public would know about it because you have to talk about it openly to attract the best talent now, again, the Patriots are a great example of this. And until we employ anyone internally that has the kinds of skills I point out in that thread we all as fans have a right to be and should be very concerned.

I started my first company, an AI company 7 years ago even the difference in best practices for what technology to employ in the last 3 years has changed drastically. I do not believe Gettleman's track record reflects he is the right person to leverage technology for success, especially because of that clip I shared.

I also mention this in the thread but if that is what he says publicly and the way he acts, he is not the kind of person that the best minds today want to work for. Also just the fact that the league is really modernizing and we were not really making hires to keep up with that trend and when we have a chance to take a look at how we can improve our processes we bring in a 77 year old to hire a 68 year old. I'm sorry but that without the rest of these facts should be concerning.
You are also..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/18/2018 8:22 pm : link
pointing to the status largely before Gettleman arrived and making a lot of assumptions on what the Giants are doing.

And for some reason, you reference a few teams and then completely ignore what Gettleman did in Carolina or what his protege, Brandon Beane is doing in Buffalo.I'm sure there are teams doing more with analytics than the Giants, but trying to project that Gettleman isn't going to do anything (with continued insulting comments about his age), takes a lot away from the information.
RE: You are also..  
NoGainDayne : 12/18/2018 11:43 pm : link
In comment 14225416 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
pointing to the status largely before Gettleman arrived and making a lot of assumptions on what the Giants are doing.

And for some reason, you reference a few teams and then completely ignore what Gettleman did in Carolina or what his protege, Brandon Beane is doing in Buffalo.I'm sure there are teams doing more with analytics than the Giants, but trying to project that Gettleman isn't going to do anything (with continued insulting comments about his age), takes a lot away from the information.


Again, we debated this on the old thread. There isn't anything to suggest what he put together in Carolina was any good. And again, just because his protege got hired in Buffalo doesn't mean that guy knows anything about building software systems or creating valuable data either.

And I will again link to the hire the Steelers made in 2015. Why don't we have someone like that working for the Giants? Why isn't this a top priority for Gettleman? I'm sorry that you think i'm making a mountain out of a molehill. If someone makes a racist comment is it shrugged off? If someone makes a sexist comment is it shrugged off?

Why do we disregard someone acting like a luddite. This speaks to his thinking. And I bring up his age because I will tell you unequivocally as someone who knows many talented engineers and mathematical thinkers that they wouldn't even go for an interview with the Giants after seeing that on Google. When the Patriots hire people like Sean Harrington. Or this article on what the Eagles were doing in 2013

There is a clear difference between throwing some money at software developers and really buying into the value of technology and integrating it into your decision making process. If you don't see how that clip is problematic in terms of someones buy in to analytics then you are blind. And his age is relevant as older people tend not to buy into analytics and are actually much more likely to just make a token investment in them so they can say they are doing something when they don't really take it that seriously. It's not just that clip that's evidence it's the fact that you can't tell me who on the team is responsible for running analytics other than Jon Berger is problematic.


This is who runs them for the Cowboys


He at least has a masters in predictive analytics.

How about the Seahawks looking pretty advanced

Oh how about your Buffalo Bills. Well they hired Luis Guilamo to run their analytics. Not only does he not have a linkedin page but he worked in IT consulting. An IT consultant isn't qualified to run an analytics department. This is Gettleman's shining protege, a younger guy that might have his finger more on the pulse of technology. He brings in an IT consultant??? Shows how clueless you and him are.




Steelers make advanced analytics hire - ( New Window )
Just6..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/19/2018 8:27 am : link
fucking stop it already:

Quote:
Oh how about your Buffalo Bills. Well they hired Luis Guilamo to run their analytics. Not only does he not have a linkedin page but he worked in IT consulting. An IT consultant isn't qualified to run an analytics department. This is Gettleman's shining protege, a younger guy that might have his finger more on the pulse of technology. He brings in an IT consultant??? Shows how clueless you and him are.


Me and the Buffalo Bills are clueless because they hired a guy without a LinkedIn page? Are you fucking serious? And I don't say that tongue-in-cheek because I think you are serious!!

So, without knowing anything about a guy other than a brief scan of his background, you know his capabilities.

Let's see - in this thread and the other one, you have shown a bias against age and profess to know who and who isn't capable of running an analytics department by name only? And even though it is shown that Gettleman revamped the analytics in Carolina, it musn't be any good. Not because of evidence, but because YOU don't think a 68 year old guy can do it.

Fucking ponderous.
NGD  
dep026 : 12/19/2018 8:34 am : link
bringing the LULZ last night. It seems like he keeps saying... "I DONT WANT FACTS! I WANT EVIDENCE!"

LinkedIn....lol. Cant make this shit up.
RE: Just6..  
NoGainDayne : 12/19/2018 11:26 am : link
In comment 14225683 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
fucking stop it already:



Quote:


Oh how about your Buffalo Bills. Well they hired Luis Guilamo to run their analytics. Not only does he not have a linkedin page but he worked in IT consulting. An IT consultant isn't qualified to run an analytics department. This is Gettleman's shining protege, a younger guy that might have his finger more on the pulse of technology. He brings in an IT consultant??? Shows how clueless you and him are.



Me and the Buffalo Bills are clueless because they hired a guy without a LinkedIn page? Are you fucking serious? And I don't say that tongue-in-cheek because I think you are serious!!

So, without knowing anything about a guy other than a brief scan of his background, you know his capabilities.

Let's see - in this thread and the other one, you have shown a bias against age and profess to know who and who isn't capable of running an analytics department by name only? And even though it is shown that Gettleman revamped the analytics in Carolina, it musn't be any good. Not because of evidence, but because YOU don't think a 68 year old guy can do it.

Fucking ponderous.


Google Guilamo. He is a joke professionally, he has websites of himself up that are sloppy and dated. But this or the linkedin isn't even the point.

Like I said it is you who very clearly doesn't get it. If you have any programming chops or knowledge of predictive analytics you don't work as an IT consultant, you just don't. I'm not saying he can't learn but the fact that he got that job with the Bills without any previous experience in predictive analytics speaks volumes to their organizations understanding of the problem and the systems they need to build. Beane getting a job supports my point not yours. Some organizations are clueless and are getting outclassed in their systems architecture by others. The Giants being one of them.

Again, I make a very eloquent point that thread I keep linking about how valuable systems can't be kept secret. Building a talented tech team can't be kept secret. This isn't the 80's. You are out of your element here. You don't get it and I can't teach you. Many data science jobs require a PhD these days, again, the only guy the Giants have on their staff is someone with a basic understanding of statistics and then a guy that used stata prior to getting the job.

Watch this video on the Yankees

Look at the director of quantitative analysis for the Yankees

I don't know how you can't see that this is a moneyball situation. Yes it came earlier for baseball but with ZEBRA data, camera data. Football analytics are here, the data that can be leveraged for insights are here. We don't have anyone within the organization that has knowledge of how to leverage this information. And we will fall further behind, we are behind right now.

Again, people like you are a problem. You make organizations feel like they don't need to innovate because there are plenty of people that will support their lack of innovation. But that in now way should be the case.

Have you read anything about innovation? Are you familiar with agile? The Chiefs seem to have a few people with product management skills. I bet their software is much better than the Giants.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/19/2018 11:40 am : link
I'm the problem. People like me on a message board.

You are a delusional whackjob.

Think about what the fuck you are saying.

You keep saying that you are making eloquent points, but they sure aren't coming across that way. It looks like you are judging people by age, background and Google searches to figure out how good they are at analytics.

Eloquence? LOL.
RE: LOL..  
NoGainDayne : 12/19/2018 11:47 am : link
In comment 14226193 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I'm the problem. People like me on a message board.

You are a delusional whackjob.

Think about what the fuck you are saying.

You keep saying that you are making eloquent points, but they sure aren't coming across that way. It looks like you are judging people by age, background and Google searches to figure out how good they are at analytics.

Eloquence? LOL.


The other thread I linked was eloquent people noticed. Now i'm just frustrated because you are out of your element and think you are making points. And while i'd like to have the time to sit down for a few days and write a post like I did last time I don't.

I can see why people leave this place. I come in with an informed view on analytics and you dismiss it for frivolous reasons lacking any real evidence.
Honestly..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/19/2018 12:24 pm : link
how the fuck am I out of my element??

I've made two points - that Gettleman upgraded the analytic team in Carolina and that his right-hand man in Carolina upgraded the team ion Buffalo.

And from that, your rebuttal has been that Gettleman didn't do crap, and that his words in a press conference are much more compelling than his actions.

I'll post it again what he did in Carolina:
Quote:
arolina is older school in their setup—director of team administration Rob Rogers, who manages the cap, oversees analytics, and the club pulls from services like PFF. But the Panthers are now forward-thinking in integrating the information with coaching and scouting, despite being an organization that has two guys with old-school résumés running the show: head coach Ron Rivera (who has bought into fourth-down theory) and GM Dave Gettleman (who dispatches two employees to the Sloan Conference every year). The team has worked to develop its own system in-house with a staff that includes two full-time analysts, three full-time developers and three others with analytics prominent among their duties.


Your response to that was that you can pump a bunch of resources into upgrading something and have it fail (even though there's no evidence it is failing). Your response is that you don't leave analytics in the hands of a 68 year old guy. And your response to Buffalo is that a guy without a LinkedIn page and who worked in IT is unfit to run analytics.

You keep saying you are making good points. And that you are being eloquent. And I actually think you believe that.

It is fucking laughable.
RE: Honestly..  
NoGainDayne : 12/19/2018 4:34 pm : link
In comment 14226330 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
how the fuck am I out of my element??

I've made two points - that Gettleman upgraded the analytic team in Carolina and that his right-hand man in Carolina upgraded the team ion Buffalo.

And from that, your rebuttal has been that Gettleman didn't do crap, and that his words in a press conference are much more compelling than his actions.

I'll post it again what he did in Carolina:


Quote:


arolina is older school in their setup—director of team administration Rob Rogers, who manages the cap, oversees analytics, and the club pulls from services like PFF. But the Panthers are now forward-thinking in integrating the information with coaching and scouting, despite being an organization that has two guys with old-school résumés running the show: head coach Ron Rivera (who has bought into fourth-down theory) and GM Dave Gettleman (who dispatches two employees to the Sloan Conference every year). The team has worked to develop its own system in-house with a staff that includes two full-time analysts, three full-time developers and three others with analytics prominent among their duties.



Your response to that was that you can pump a bunch of resources into upgrading something and have it fail (even though there's no evidence it is failing). Your response is that you don't leave analytics in the hands of a 68 year old guy. And your response to Buffalo is that a guy without a LinkedIn page and who worked in IT is unfit to run analytics.

You keep saying you are making good points. And that you are being eloquent. And I actually think you believe that.

It is fucking laughable.


I am calling you dumb because we already had this debate and you slinked away after I rebutted all of your points. Now you want to pretend like that didn't happen when anyone who reads that thread can clearly see that. But I will respond again individually.

1. Just because someone hires developers doesn't mean they have done a good job putting together a good analytical framework and the fact that he makes fun of analytics publicly is a much bigger sign that he does not take it seriously despite investing resources in it which is even worse than ignoring it in my opinion. The fact that there have been no announcements of new analytics based hires for the Giants lends to this point, that he doesn't have a real commitment to it. Do you know how many "developers" there are in the world right now. Millions. Most people, yourself included don't seem to understand the concept that there is a huge gap between a skilled developer and someone that can just write code.

2. To this point. You don't seem to understand that by saying I don't know enough about this Buffalo hire to make the statements i'm making only supports my point? That you and the people in Buffalo that hired him don't even know the right kind of person to look for. You are saying I don't know he has these skills but that's why people have resumes. Hired an IT consultant to run analytics and then telling me I don't know if he has the right skills to run an analytics department is insane. IT is about infrastructure, networking, security. Analytics requires knowledge of mathmatics, algorithms, pipeline architecture (including data structuring and output organization) including but not limited to ensembling methodologies, model verification, I could go on. You want to see someone with applied job experience in these run an analytics department. Not someone who has set up network security on a few computers. Do you realize some IT people just troubleshoot logins or HDMI cables? It's like taking a waiter and telling me how do I know he's not the best chef, maybe he should be head chef? How I know he isn't better than the head chef? He may very well be. But you don't make a waiter the head chef, you want the person you make head chef to have experience cooking first. We are talking about the NFL that makes billions of dollars. If you are going to be head chef at Le Bernedin you don't go from waiter to that. You have to show you can cook at a lesser restaurant first, then maybe even be a head chef at a lesser restaurant. I honestly can't believe this is the point you are making that I don't know. This is what I do know.

It is a way higher chance of someone being qualified if they have applied programming experience in the job world, some kind of mathematical degree and/or actually success engineering systems before.

It is a way lower chance that someone really believes in analytics as opposed to just putting resources to appear more forward thinking if they mock it openly.

It is extremely unlikely that you are even remotely as qualified as me to weigh in on this topic and you are proving yourself to be uneducated in how you are talking about it. In the other thread I did lay out very clearly how these types of systems are built, I know because I am a data architect and I think I demonstrated this sufficiently in the other thread which is why I keep referring to it. You on the other hand haven't demonstrated any knowledge of the field of analytics whatsoever. Oh you know what the word developer means? Congratulations!

I'd be happy to debate with you the merits of different cloud architectures. Model validation techniques. Dealing with the infinite dimensionality problem in time series feature engineering. Dealing with out of sample data and overfitting. Reinforcement learning techniques. You don't know, Buffalo doesn't know, the Giants don't know.

But ok, i'm the laughable one when i've actually put in time an effort in that last thread to help people understand the merits of more open minded organizational thinking and you are just spouting Giants propoganda and evasive vague bullshit about systems that clearly pale in comparison to what the Eagles, Patriots, Seahawks, Steelers, Chiefs, Jaguars and I don't even care how many other teams.

And before you jump in with the Eagles / Jaguars whoever aren't perfect i'll catch you in that these systems aren't perfect but you gradually improve them and you need the top people in their fields to do that. People that you can't and won't be able to hire when you act as arrogant as Gettleman. Again, as I posted in the other thread that you seem to mock despite the fact that it possesses more quality information on analytics than any of the drivel you spout there is a reason why Goldman has an area where the dress code is lax, there is a reason that many tech companies have unlimited vacation. It's because talented people don't want to deal with assholes like you or Gettleman. And me and any others wouldn't treat people that way unless they are assholes like you trying to get in the way of progress or pretend it isn't needed.

Now go crawl back under whatever troll rock you live in or answer my questions on analytics. Maybe tell me why we might want someone within the Giants with power that understands agile development. Why we might want that got a mathematics or data science education in the last few years.

I laugh at you, I pity you. My way of thinking is on the rise and your way of thinking is dying. The fact that you are even trying to debate me on this shows exactly how much of an arrogant asshole you are. Because if you really read that thread you'd know that what i'm advocating if pulled off effectively CULTURALLY and based in technology makes total sense to raise the probability that you have the right information to make the best decisions categorically.

This is what I actually said to an email to Brett earlier

Quote:
The funny thing is the truth is that I do think Gettleman is a good drafter in the old ways, I just also think you are undercutting yourself when a guy whose strength it is to build for the future while not embracing innovation. He could actually be a great guy to lead a modernization effort if he was open minded. He is a great football mind IMO just has the wrong attitude


I completely understand your position, you just don't understand mine because you are too much of a luddite yourself. And I will reiterate that what I wrote in the thread does demonstrate a better understanding than you or Gettleman can ever have. Not because I think I have all the answers because I know what the right processes are to build the best teams and systems to build the best informational advantage IE the Yankees. You need what is in Gettleman's brain and the information in the head of someone like me to build the best systems. Both, you need both. Get that through your thick skull. Do I think I could do a better job than Gettleman? Absolutely not. Do I think someone with Gettleman's knowledge base and a friendly, open minded attitude and me could beat Gettleman. Game theory would absolutely suggest this, oh but wait, you shun game theory like the fool that you are. This is why I shared the article on Chess Centaurs in the other thread. Again I laid all this out for you and I will link to the thread again, and again I encourage you to respond there because I did take a lot of time to work on that.

Go away already. You are wrong. More information and people that embrace technology and knowledge expertise always win against arrogant know it all people. One more time just to be very clear what my thesis is. I get that you think Gettleman embraces it but his attitude completely suggests he and you don't understand the cultural aspect development that is completely necessary to be a technology leader. And yes, one clip is enough to know he doesn't get it. All this writing you've done is enough to show that you don't get it.

I don't think you understand..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/20/2018 8:57 am : link
jackshit about my position:

Quote:
I completely understand your position, you just don't understand mine because you are too much of a luddite yourself. And I will reiterate that what I wrote in the thread does demonstrate a better understanding than you or Gettleman can ever have. Not because I think I have all the answers because I know what the right processes are to build the best teams and systems to build the best informational advantage IE the Yankees. You need what is in Gettleman's brain and the information in the head of someone like me to build the best systems. Both, you need both. Get that through your thick skull. Do I think I could do a better job than Gettleman? Absolutely not. Do I think someone with Gettleman's knowledge base and a friendly, open minded attitude and me could beat Gettleman. Game theory would absolutely suggest this, oh but wait, you shun game theory like the fool that you are.


Call me a luddite. Call me dumb. I posted what Gettleman has done and what was done in Buffalo and I've made no claims about what is going on in the NFL. This was to rebut the ridiculous idea that Gettleman shuns analytics.

What you've done is basically set your own expectations of what somebody's competence is based on age, LinkedIn resumes and what you can cobble together on how involved they are in analytics.

I didn't slink away from anything - I find it frustrating to keep arguing with somebody who claims eloquence and superiority in this area when they are literally saying a 68 year old guy can't do a good job and that a guy with an IT background can't lead analytics.

Fuck, in the rambling manifesto above, you even try to "educate" people what a developer is, with the main intent to try and say that hiring developers means jackshit because there "are millions of them".

I'll give you this - you are damn proficient at Google and LinkedIn. Kudos.
Again, here you go pulling out small parts of what I said  
NoGainDayne : 12/20/2018 9:25 am : link
and refuting them poorly in a bad attempt to save face.

I gave a very clear example with the kinds of skills people build in IT vs. what you want to lead an analytics department and why you want people to have those applied skills in the job world and academia before you have them start leading a business with billions of dollars in revenue. There is a difference between someone not being able to do something and people that are ill informed about what the proper skillsets are for a job making hires that show a like of understanding of how to solve a problem or what the proper commitment to solving that problem is. McL came in support of these facts on the other thread as someone with the proper background to solve this problems and yet you persist to try to refute all of this while not at all stating why you are at all qualified to speak on this topic.

I repeat

Quote:
I'd be happy to debate with you the merits of different cloud architectures. Model validation techniques. Dealing with the infinite dimensionality problem in time series feature engineering. Dealing with out of sample data and overfitting. Reinforcement learning techniques. You don't know, Buffalo doesn't know, the Giants don't know.


Also you have failed to address my point that I label as my thesis. The fact that Gettleman's demeanor does not reflect the kind of culture that breeds successful innovation especially as it relates to technology. McL also backed this up in the telling Gettleman quote thread.

It isn't the fact that he is 68. As I also said in the other thread friendly, open minded people do better with innovation. The fact that he is 68 makes him unlikely to change his attitude that age doesn't make someone incapable of implementing technology but the words that have come out of his mouth in interviews combined with his age makes it highly, highly unlikely that he could attract a team capable of solving what we both agree is a tough problem.

Now clearly I have upset you by insulting your intelligence but as someone who is constantly surly and disrespectful to those who they feel are ill informed perhaps you can understand that you have demonstrated to be far less informed on the topic of technology implementation than I and it's far past time for you to shut up and go away like I keep saying.
This quote..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/20/2018 9:39 am : link
in a nutshell encapsulates the discussion perfectly, but in a far different angle than you think:

Quote:
I'd be happy to debate with you the merits of different cloud architectures. Model validation techniques. Dealing with the infinite dimensionality problem in time series feature engineering. Dealing with out of sample data and overfitting. Reinforcement learning techniques. You don't know, Buffalo doesn't know, the Giants don't know.


Your stance is that your understanding of cloud architecture and model validation techniques makes you qualified to ascertain who is qualified to do a good job in analytics. You repeated this above as if it should give validation.

It doesn't. You keep saying - "You don't know. Buffalo doesn't know. Giants don't know", but the flip side of that is that, despite a continual listing of your qualifications, YOU DON'T KNOW!

You are making assumptions on what the team is doing. You've minimized what the Panthers and Buffalo are doing. You've looked at backgrounds of people to say that they aren't qualified.

And yet, with all of that nonsense and misdirection, the points in the above quote are still pertinent. You don't know the competence of the teams above. So debate away on cloud architecture, but it would seem more like arguing up at the clouds than actually having any tangible impact to this discussion.

You keep saying I have no place in this discussion, yet you lack the self-awareness to realize you have no place determining the expertise of people running analytics, when you can't even tell us what the teams are doing.

But like I said above - your mining of LinkedIn information is top notch.
I am stating that what I do know is to solve these tough  
NoGainDayne : 12/20/2018 9:42 am : link
problems you need people with applied knowledge of math and systems architecture. Qualifications not seemingly possessed by the people I am naming.

If you want to get into an argument about relative truth, no, nobody really knows anything.

But we make arguments based on the facts we have in front of them and the facts in Buffalo and New York are that these people do not seem to have the qualifications needed to build systems advanced enough to add value for a predictive challenge as difficult signal processing for football data which can include ZEBRA and camera data.
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