Eli had bad games 10 years ago. Big deal. People are totally overreacting. The guy can still play. The O-line is a patchwork mess, fix that, or at least make it competent and we'll compete. Our defense sucks too but that's not flashy headlining material for the papers and these Madden type 'fans" but into it hook line and sinker....
Eli had bad games 10 years ago. Big deal. People are totally overreacting. The guy can still play. The O-line is a patchwork mess, fix that, or at least make it competent and we'll compete. Our defense sucks too but that's not flashy headlining material for the papers and these Madden type 'fans" but into it hook line and sinker....
the "flashy headlining material" is 0 points scored, yes.
think he was as bad as most will knee-jerk to like usual, but the real reason they lost was the lack of running game. He put a surprising amount of passes right on the money in shitty weather. But you cant rely on the passing game in those kind of conditions because drops are going to happen and the ball isnt going to release normally. Marriota didnt have to do much at all.
They sorely missed OBJ, just having him as a decoy wouldve helped the run game a lot. But really the team isnt there yet, not really upset or surprised by the loss. The defense being noncompetitive was more frustrating.
That said, I wouldnt be surprised that next year is Elis last, but I also think they need to get the next guy up soon as possible to get back to playoff competition, whomever or however that is.
because he said Eli was "wild," like a pitcher being wild -- not always in control of his throws. There's always been some of that with Eli. He's not always precise and sometimes his throws are WAYYYY off target. But when he's on, he's really on. Yesterday I think we saw "wild" Eli. Recently we've seen more of good Eli.
Both are real. He is who he is. You take the good with the bad. We all know what's good and what's bad about the guy at this point. If the GM and HC feel the bad outweighs the good, and there's a better alternative, Eli will be gone.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
+1
Too many holes to fill to grab a QB in round one, unless it is ridiculous value. OL, ER, S, LB all are much bigger problem areas than QB. And we need a lot of them.
Hopefully some of those areas we can cover in FA, but if not, QB may need to wait another year at least.
is whether there's a viable replacement that's going to be coming available this offseason. Any free agents or draft picks who are clearly better options (or have a chance to become so)?
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
are the gift that keep on giving. So many hilarious mistakes on the field and off. NFC East is laughing their ass off at the losers this franchise become.
What he says in December is meaningless. Actions in the spring will speak volumes.
That said, Eli is probably under center week 1 in September 2019.
And well beyond. Going to be next to impossible to replace him on that no other qbs out there are any better, he wants to be a ny giant for his entire career, and the emotional attachment this org has for him, and the reprecussions they face (as we've seen) and uproar Mara and co. if they try to replace him. Mara may fear the last one
Eli doesn't owe the Giants a damn thing. If I was him, I wait for my $5M roster bonus to be paid. Then he can mull whether to retire. If no QB is drafted a month later, then he should announce his retirement and leave the Giants with Noodle Arm and Tanney and a cap hit of $11.2M sitting on the books. But at least the Giants wouldn't have to worry about mortgaging the future drafts to pick Tua/Fromm in 2020. They most certainly would have the #1 pick.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Sounds crazy, but so is the certainty that he won't be traded. Since paying him, he has been called out by the owner through the media. OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to. And once again, we have another season where he doesn't suit up for 16 games.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We have too many holes to just go
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Sounds crazy, but so is the certainty that he won't be traded. Since paying him, he has been called out by the owner through the media. OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to. And once again, we have another season where he doesn't suit up for 16 games.
Please provide a source for thi:
Quote:
OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to
He's a WR by the way, they get nicked up from time to time. I would never doubt his want to play and even practice as he loves it.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Sounds crazy, but so is the certainty that he won't be traded. Since paying him, he has been called out by the owner through the media. OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to. And once again, we have another season where he doesn't suit up for 16 games.
Please provide a source for thi:
Quote:
OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to
He's a WR by the way, they get nicked up from time to time. I would never doubt his want to play and even practice as he loves it.
I'm not going to track down beat reporters links and pressers just to prove my point. Pat stated in his PC last week that Odell shouldn't be providing injury updates to the media. He was downplaying OBJ's status all week. OBJ goes ahead and makes the comment on social media (I don't know what platform. I don't follow him.) that "it ain't right". Saying he was getting scans and now he stated it was a hematoma. If you are interested, you can google "OBJ hematoma" and be entertained.
Draft someone better and this becomes a mute point
The problem is the team needs to draft someone who is capable of taking his job.
Spend the first round pick and let them come in and compete.
It will become self-evident.
Teams will try to jump over you in the draft, plus there might not be any studs this year. Do you want to force it and draft the next Brady Quinn? We have 11 picks, maybe 12. Strengthen the OL and DL and go fro there.
@RVacchianoSNY
Following Following @RVacchianoSNY
More
Deal with it, Giants fans: Eli Manning is their best and most likely option to be the starting QB in 2019
Here's why, and why all the other options don't come close:
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Sounds crazy, but so is the certainty that he won't be traded. Since paying him, he has been called out by the owner through the media. OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to. And once again, we have another season where he doesn't suit up for 16 games.
Please provide a source for thi:
Quote:
OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to
He's a WR by the way, they get nicked up from time to time. I would never doubt his want to play and even practice as he loves it.
I'm not going to track down beat reporters links and pressers just to prove my point. Pat stated in his PC last week that Odell shouldn't be providing injury updates to the media. He was downplaying OBJ's status all week. OBJ goes ahead and makes the comment on social media (I don't know what platform. I don't follow him.) that "it ain't right". Saying he was getting scans and now he stated it was a hematoma. If you are interested, you can google "OBJ hematoma" and be entertained.
This is all so out of whack. You have things way out of order and are misquoting PS. I would correct you but whats the point.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We have too many holes to just go
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Sounds crazy, but so is the certainty that he won't be traded. Since paying him, he has been called out by the owner through the media. OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to. And once again, we have another season where he doesn't suit up for 16 games.
Please provide a source for thi:
Quote:
OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to
He's a WR by the way, they get nicked up from time to time. I would never doubt his want to play and even practice as he loves it.
I'm not going to track down beat reporters links and pressers just to prove my point. Pat stated in his PC last week that Odell shouldn't be providing injury updates to the media. He was downplaying OBJ's status all week. OBJ goes ahead and makes the comment on social media (I don't know what platform. I don't follow him.) that "it ain't right". Saying he was getting scans and now he stated it was a hematoma. If you are interested, you can google "OBJ hematoma" and be entertained.
This is all so out of whack. You have things way out of order and are misquoting PS. I would correct you but whats the point.
The week leading up to Skins, Pat downplays OBJ's status. That Friday, OBJ had an interview in front of his locker talking about scans and "it ain't right". Obviously, OBJ is out for the skins. Mid-week presser for Pat during Titans week, Pat opens the presser with an an injury update. In that presser, he mentions that his update is all the media will get.
Now, I'm not going to belabor the point. As I already wasted more time on that dumpster fire of a website that Nilay strung together than I care too. You can listen for yourself. Pat gives the injury update and only Pat. - ( New Window )
So let's roll out the 38 year old QB, going on 39, with an average arm, more indecisive than ever, more immobile than ever, and needs more help than ever on both sides of the ball to be average.
The big physical 50/50 receiver, he will be fine, it's even more important than a good oline. If not we have move on to a mobile QB for our crap wco offense and coach and Monsoon Stadium.
Unfortunately I don't see a good prospect out there.
are the gift that keep on giving. So many hilarious mistakes on the field and off. NFC East is laughing their ass off at the losers this franchise become.
The week leading up to Skins, Pat downplays OBJ's status. That Friday, OBJ had an interview in front of his locker talking about scans and "it ain't right". Obviously, OBJ is out for the skins. Mid-week presser for Pat during Titans week, Pat opens the presser with an an injury update. In that presser, he mentions that his update is all the media will get.
Now, I'm not going to belabor the point. As I already wasted more time on that dumpster fire of a website that Nilay strung together than I care too. You can listen for yourself. Pat gives the injury update and only Pat. - ( New Window )
Your timeline is off
The "it aint right" interview was well after he was ruled out for washington. he gave vague answers and clearly wasn't breaking any news.
in fact I hated the pick when it was made. However, judging him on last week is beyond stupid. Eli sucked ass for 3 and a half years.
Yes, I would still take Darnold in a heart beat. 21 year kid who looks to be a good one in a few years. I'll bet the Jets wouldn't trade him for Barkley straight up. If they keep kicking the can down the road on Eli, the team will be mediocre at best for the next 4-5 years - by then Barkley's best days will be long gone.
IF the OL and run game is top notch A1 dang near perfect .... otherwise no it will not work. Oh and his WRs needs (at least 1) to be a top 7 talent (league wise).
So let's roll out the 38 year old QB, going on 39, with an average arm, more indecisive than ever, more immobile than ever, and needs more help than ever on both sides of the ball to be average.
then that will just be adding to the mess. Barkley was the right choice last April. Eli has always needed and O Line and a defense to help win games. Have you ben watching the team for the last 15 years?
The strength of the draft is Defense and there will be a great Edge or DL when we pick.
It's identifying that the organization is broken, how it's broken, and what is going to be needed to fix it. It's often assumed the people in charge are extremely competent and are more qualified to do the job they're doing. I don't think that's true. I think incompetence is all over the NFL, and the only advantage the people in those front offices have is a list of contacts in Outlook (or in Gettleman's case, a Rolodex).
I'm not a season ticket holder so I don't have much power, but if I were I'd sell my tickets to fans of the opposing team. I'm hoping the last game of the season is a Cowboy home game. That's the kind of shit that gets Mara's attention.
Or just speaking to the media. I think I believe less than 1% of what coaches tell the media. Especially our best reporters who may be the worst in the business.
My friend, we agree that much is broken. More importantly, there are many doubts and risks.
But, imho, most importantly, there is a lot of vital information we do not know that prevents the scope of the analysis many posters try to assert.
So venting yes. When it comes to asserting we are analyzing, I think we are more limited than we would like to believe. That's true of all human endeavor since it is so easy to torture data into confessing that our feelings are valid. Nor are we likely to correct for the bias we attach to information and context we do not know
Here is what I think we do know:
1) To me the signs of a decline trend were evident in 2009 ( I consider 2011 an anomaly). I think the key to success or failure in the Eli era was abundantly available in the 2008 games against Cleveland.
2) There is a cap.
3) Interpretation of where you stand on the scale of NFl dominance is so skewed by a few plays and injuries that its a hard assessment to make
4) Replacing an often uninjured franchise QB oft asked to be a difference maker in a poor system is fraught with few success stories in NFL history. This era was always going to happen.
5) There are few known paths to sustained ( as in 3 years)NFl success without a franchise QB and better than average lines.
6) I cannot go overboard on a FO who is not yet in place 10 months and who inherited a mess so great I think that even 3 wins last year masks how bad they were.
7) Lastly, some analysis that is oft claimed as "clear" and Simple" is simply unknowable conjecture.
For example, I personally think the Maras where living in an updraft of factoid claims in an echo chamber from their Gm. For far too long. But thats my opinion based on finding no other good explanation for the last several years. I submit this year and next are properly considered a tax on the past.
But what no one knows is what Mara did about it. Once the mess was clear and the veil oof misinformation penetrated..We do not know if he asked permission to talk to BB or Harbaugh. We do not know what non media named expertise he asked or talked to. We do not know what GM or coaching offers were attempted and not won for factors beyond reasonable control. We do not know how may more outsiders and or other analytics now enter the decision matrix that were not there before last year.
Now, before you slam back that i am fishing in speculation for the purpose of praising Mara...I will not tell you...but I am telling you...you dont know. Period. Full Stop.
For venting to be analysis it has to have reasonable context, reasonable benchmarks to set reasonable expectations.
More importantly...in a Game rigged to the mean with the second most important variable being human motivation on the 53...interpretation requires time.
Most of all for analysis to be as sweeping as some of our venters claim...it has to have information we do not have.
Personally, I fear we will repeat the unending muck between Tittle and LT. But thats a fear. Its not even close to an analysis or even reasoned reasonable argumentation.
Take care Go Terps. Happy Holidays. I enjoy your perspectives and expect to next year as well.
are about to move on from Joe Flacco. This is a guy whose won a super bowl for them in 2012 the year after Eli. Hes 33 years old. Younger then Eli. Has made the playoffs 6 times the last 10 years Eli has made it 3 times in that span. And the ravens Drafted Lamar Jackson this year a QB whose is playing now and playing well and was the 4th quarterback taken. So with that said why cant the giants draft a QB like Dwayne Haskins who can take Elis job at some point next year? And yet I have to hear how this QB class sucks and how Eli is the best option its hot garbage
You're right that we don't know everything that went on behind the scenes. For example, I would hope and expect that Mara is contacting Belichick every offseason about coming to the Giants. Rejection is fine, but IMO he has to ask every offseason. That's obviously not the kind of thing that is going to come out in public, and I haven't criticized Mara for not having publicly approached Belichick. That's not something we know.
But there are things we do know:
1. The Giants had a 42-54 record entering this season since they won the Super Bowl in 2011. We know the 2011 team was deeply flawed, got hot at the right time, and was by no means a model for future team development.
2. This was an enormous offseason where multiple factors lined up serendipitously to allow ownership to redefine the direction of the franchise. Each of these occurred:
- GM fired before end of 2017 season
- Head Coach fired before end of 2017 season
- #2 pick in the draft
- QB rich draft
- Eli had an out in his contract
It's a rare thing to have an opportunity to cleanly start over at GM, head coach, and quarterback at the same time. If the Giants were a tanker to be turned around, Mara had the chance to turn the full 180 degrees in a single offseason.
This was the opportunity to set the course for a new, ambitious future defined by innovative thinking at GM & HC, and inexpensive youth at QB.
Instead, we now have enormous questions at GM, HC, and QB.
The size of the opportunity wasted is, within the context of the NFL, difficult to quantify.
I fully expect the Giants to go hard for a QB in the draft. If there is one they covet Eli will not prevent them from drafting him. I expect Eli to be back next season as the starter but he will be mentoring a QB hopefully Herbert.
I think incompetence is all over the NFL, and the only advantage the people in those front offices have is a list of contacts in Outlook (or in Gettleman's case, a Rolodex).
The Giants like all functional corporations take customer sentiment into account. We're talking about an owner that reads fan mail.
You can vote with your dollars, or on in social media, or BBI. When the tenor of the fan base erupts it's heard. The beats take the temp of the fans, the coaches field the questions. The management hears the coaches.
The fans got McAdoo fired last year. Try on for size if the fan reaction would have been, "well the team is bottomed out, let's see of Geno fairs any better."
You're right that we don't know everything that went on behind the scenes. For example, I would hope and expect that Mara is contacting Belichick every offseason about coming to the Giants. Rejection is fine, but IMO he has to ask every offseason. That's obviously not the kind of thing that is going to come out in public, and I haven't criticized Mara for not having publicly approached Belichick. That's not something we know.
But there are things we do know:
1. The Giants had a 42-54 record entering this season since they won the Super Bowl in 2011. We know the 2011 team was deeply flawed, got hot at the right time, and was by no means a model for future team development.
2. This was an enormous offseason where multiple factors lined up serendipitously to allow ownership to redefine the direction of the franchise. Each of these occurred:
- GM fired before end of 2017 season
- Head Coach fired before end of 2017 season
- #2 pick in the draft
- QB rich draft
- Eli had an out in his contract
It's a rare thing to have an opportunity to cleanly start over at GM, head coach, and quarterback at the same time. If the Giants were a tanker to be turned around, Mara had the chance to turn the full 180 degrees in a single offseason.
This was the opportunity to set the course for a new, ambitious future defined by innovative thinking at GM & HC, and inexpensive youth at QB.
Instead, we now have enormous questions at GM, HC, and QB.
The size of the opportunity wasted is, within the context of the NFL, difficult to quantify.
Not to speak for Bill, but the issue I have with the above is
1. Barkley over Darnold is still a tough, tough question to answer and may well be 2 years from now. I don't think you can say the wrong choice was made at this point. I certainly don't think you can make it as emphatically as you do.
2. Many of us like the GM. You may think he is a dinosaur but I don't think there's a lot of fact to support that and in fact there are facts that refute it both from Carolina and the Giants. Certainly he had an excellent draft and a shaky free agency but that could yet change for either. This season proves nothing...the team improved a bit from last year for sure but it was never likely to be a one year turnaround. The best we could hope for was meaningful December ball...I'm not really sure we got that but we were not far off.
3. I think the coach has been shaky with time management and wider play calling. The team has played hard for him though and he gets another year to improve.
Mara cleaned house. He didn't go too far outside the organisation but Gettleman was enormously well thought of from his time here as PPD. You shouldn't write him off inside of one year.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
Trade one of your best players because you took too long to find a QB, and potentially passed on one twice.
.........
Mara cleaned house. He didn't go too far outside the organisation but Gettleman was enormously well thought of from his time here as PPD. You shouldn't write him off inside of one year.
Agreed.
This team was rotten to the core. While the FO offered hope to the fans, they knew they needed to clean house and did so.
No doubt a replacement QB is needed soon if not now, but the oline is far more decrepit than Eli and a decent oline allows time for the Giants to find a suitable QB while giving Eli a chance to win. This was never a 1 year rebuild and is likely a three year job.
- GM fired before end of 2017 season
- Head Coach fired before end of 2017 season
- #2 pick in the draft
- QB rich draft
- Eli had an out in his contract
He also told Eli he needed to play better to keep his job.
Let the season play out, lets see what they do in the draft.
If they want a QB it just hurts them to say anything other than what PS said.
This. What do you want him to say? It's a presser, who cares, actions will speak for themselves in the off-season. Let morons like Boomer and Gio (he's almost as bad as carton) lose their minds over this!
- GM fired before end of 2017 season
- Head Coach fired before end of 2017 season
- #2 pick in the draft
- QB rich draft
- Eli had an out in his contract
the "out"?
Eli never had the "out". The Giants did with the roster bonus. The final 2 years of Eli's contract were essentially team options. The timing of the RB is such that Eli wouldn't miss out on the initial wave of FA in the event the team didn't pay.
but he gutted away how many losers and horrific players from the Reese era? It took Reese 8 years to ruin this franchise. DG gets at least one more year for me. He is building something on the OL/DL that I am curious to see how it ends.
We dont have one player on the OL that was drafted by Reese on the team. We have one player on the DL that Reese drafted. We have 1 LB and 1 DB on the roster that Reese drafted. It was that bad people.
He won't, but if Mara opted to fired both Gettleman and Shurmur it would be well deserved. They've been an embarrassment in year 1.
This statement is just so far off from reality...surely you can't actually believe DG's 1st draft was an embarrassment...?
The GM has a lot of duties besides the draft. How did these things go:
- He helped hire Shurmur. Remember..."this is an adult"?
- He made Solder the highest paid offensive lineman in the NFL. Great move.
- Signed Stewart. Great move.
- Signed Omameh. Great move.
- Traded for overpaid Ogeltree. Great move.
- Paid Beckham a huge contract (yet the offense still sucks)
- Stuck with Eli
I'm also not as convinced as others that the draft was so great. I still think picking Barkley was foolish. He's a wonderful player, but how much difference has he made? The offense still stinks.
This team is staring down the barrel of 5-11, and people make the argument that the people running the show are doing a good job. It's incredible.
It is year 1. A year where they have turned the roster over by 70% and changed over half the starters. They will end up being more successful than last year - even if it isn't a playoff year.
And Gettleman has not only shown he is willing to make hard decisions on his predecessor's players, he's done the same on his own signings.
For the first time in years, we seem to have a plan. The main issue fans have is that plan didn't work Day 1, which is odd as hell. But then again when some people will call this an embarrassment in year 1, anything is fucking possible.
but the team is 5-9 in a league will teams regularly turn it around fast (Bears, Colts this year). So if you want to defend Gettleman, thats fine but at minimum Shurmur should be criticized for a 5-9 record where the Giants have led the league in one possession games.
It is year 1. A year where they have turned the roster over by 70% and changed over half the starters. They will end up being more successful than last year - even if it isn't a playoff year.
And Gettleman has not only shown he is willing to make hard decisions on his predecessor's players, he's done the same on his own signings.
For the first time in years, we seem to have a plan. The main issue fans have is that plan didn't work Day 1, which is odd as hell. But then again when some people will call this an embarrassment in year 1, anything is fucking possible.
The biggest one to me is the ability to cut bait. Love it and the vast majority of people in this world are unwilling to say I was wrong and make the moves to rectify their mistake. In the NFL it seems like the Pats and Steelers are the exceptions to this.
RE: And the offense has scored 30 points 3 times this season....
that people who supposedly follow the team think the plan is "make a run with Eli".
Other than not drafting a QB, what evidence even supports that?
We got rid of JPP, turned the roster over, changed half the starters. What part of that, other than Eli being one of the starters that remained indicates "making a run with Eli"?
And unfortunately, a lot of the people saying it should know better.
My main critique of Gettleman is that I do not see a plan. There were a handful of moves that made me think DG thought this team was close to competing, which I thought was asinine. If DG thought (and acted) like he knew this would be a shit team, I'd be much more confident in him.
RE: RE: And the offense has scored 30 points 3 times this season....
That's improvement. They also have a 1000 yard rusher for the first time since 2012. That's also improvement.
That works both ways. They also just got shut out at home for the first time since 2013.
I don't consider that any significant development. If we kicked a garbage time FG would it make any difference? We've had tons of low scoring affairs since 2013.
& Im very glad hes a Giant. But, this is still a QB league & Darnolds skill set impresses me. So, until we secure our next QB - its going to be a debate.
Here is a question:
Is anyone upset we didnt draft Larry Fitzgerald in 2004? He may have been the best player in the draft & a sure HOFer. Could have regrouped with Collins a year removed from 10-6 & 4 years removed from a SB appearance.
My main critique of Gettleman is that I do not see a plan. There were a handful of moves that made me think DG thought this team was close to competing, which I thought was asinine. If DG thought (and acted) like he knew this would be a shit team, I'd be much more confident in him.
The plan is the trenches. OL and DL. You are going to see it more in this draft.
& Im very glad hes a Giant. But, this is still a QB league & Darnolds skill set impresses me. So, until we secure our next QB - its going to be a debate.
Here is a question:
Is anyone upset we didnt draft Larry Fitzgerald in 2004? He may have been the best player in the draft & a sure HOFer. Could have regrouped with Collins a year removed from 10-6 & 4 years removed from a SB appearance.
Yeah, the Chargers might be upset they didn't take Fitzgerald.
If we had drafted Darnold... The team could be in worse shape with a worse record and the same people bashing Gettleman would be preaching patience.
Tell me I'm wrong.
You're not wrong. If we'd drafted Darnold (or Jackson, who by the way has turned his team's fortunes around THIS YEAR) we wouldn't have the huge specter of QB problems (forked Eli or ????) hanging over the entire team.
I know that since we drafted Barkley it became incredibly easy to find a quarterback, but nevertheless there is enormous reason for concern.
My main critique of Gettleman is that I do not see a plan. There were a handful of moves that made me think DG thought this team was close to competing, which I thought was asinine. If DG thought (and acted) like he knew this would be a shit team, I'd be much more confident in him.
The plan is the trenches. OL and DL. You are going to see it more in this draft.
If we had drafted Darnold... The team could be in worse shape with a worse record and the same people bashing Gettleman would be preaching patience.
Tell me I'm wrong.
You're not wrong. If we'd drafted Darnold (or Jackson, who by the way has turned his team's fortunes around THIS YEAR) we wouldn't have the huge specter of QB problems (forked Eli or ????) hanging over the entire team.
I know that since we drafted Barkley it became incredibly easy to find a quarterback, but nevertheless there is enormous reason for concern.
You really don't know that about drafting either of them. Jury is still out on both, imo.
Two takes on QB hell, to me the second can be worse than the first:
1. Have no identifiable present or future QB's on the roster.
2. Have a QB on the roster who you've spent a ton of resources to secure and made a multi-year commitment to, but who hasn't yet shown the return on investment.
I know you're a big fan of Jackson, I think he's an interesting guy. Jury is out imo on whether he can carry a team if he had to (without a playoff-caliber defense). He can certainly make plays with his legs, but is that something you can count on? Very, very few mobile QB's stay healthy consistently enough to expect that to be the norm. A QB needs to prove they can make plays from within the pocket as well, and I don't think Jackson has proven that.
...as long as Eli is still in the team's plans going forward. That is the telltale sign that they are still trying to send Eli out in style.
An good, independent GM would say that it's time to stop chasing Miracle #3 with Eli, because you simply can't win with his eroding skill set, and start finding the next QB with real reps in real game situations.
If Eli is rightfully sent packing after this year, then I'll eat my words. Until then, Gettleman is following the marching order of Ole John.
Accorsis philosophy has always been if you have the opportunity to draft a franchise QB, you do it. The stars aligned last year.
It is strange. Gettleman went on and on about how highly rated Barkley was - one of the top ratings he had given a player since Peyton Manning, and that scouting seems to be right on the money. Instead of praising Gettleman at least for being dead on in his scouting assessment, he's getting killed for not reaching for a QB he may not have felt was going to be a guy to build around.
In essence, it is a double-whammy based on nothing more than the hype of the QB class, and until shown otherwise, it is still just hype. Meanwhile, Barkley has already shown that the scouting assessment wasn't hype.
This whole thing still boils down to people being upset because we didn't pick a QB. Bottom line.
that Solder has been absolutely terrible just won't stop.
He's actually done better than Norwell this year and teh consensus was that we needed to sign one of them in the offseason.
He's average at best, and that's an extremely charitable assessment, yet is the highest paid tackle in the league. Andrew Norwell's failures don't de facto make Solder a good signing.
That or Nelson. But Barkley is really good. And if he drafts people this year to help him, its still a good thing.
I'm no oline expert - I usually defer to Joey in VA - but I've seen a good portion of three Colts games this year on NFLN replay and Nelson is a monster. Guy just moves people from point A to point B with some real dominance. What he did at Notre Dame has definitely translated to the pro level.
He was killing the Dallas interior this past weekend. It was just a thing of beauty...
What he says in December is meaningless. Actions in the spring will speak volumes.
That said, Eli is probably under center week 1 in September 2019.
Why, because Jordan Raaaaaanaaaan and other dopes say so?
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
Quote:
Look what the Ravens are doing. Eli has become a large cloud over the franchise.
Why, because Jordan Raaaaaanaaaan and other dopes say so?
Because the results suck?
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Yeah with Lamar Jackson....
the "flashy headlining material" is 0 points scored, yes.
Quote:
out and get a QB.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Or move down in round 1 to get future picks. Either way. Get our QB of the future and let him learn behind Eli and hopfully a much improved Oline
They sorely missed OBJ, just having him as a decoy wouldve helped the run game a lot. But really the team isnt there yet, not really upset or surprised by the loss. The defense being noncompetitive was more frustrating.
That said, I wouldnt be surprised that next year is Elis last, but I also think they need to get the next guy up soon as possible to get back to playoff competition, whomever or however that is.
Both are real. He is who he is. You take the good with the bad. We all know what's good and what's bad about the guy at this point. If the GM and HC feel the bad outweighs the good, and there's a better alternative, Eli will be gone.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
+1
Too many holes to fill to grab a QB in round one, unless it is ridiculous value. OL, ER, S, LB all are much bigger problem areas than QB. And we need a lot of them.
Hopefully some of those areas we can cover in FA, but if not, QB may need to wait another year at least.
jorts
ahahahahhahahaha
So that begs the question - is this the latest mandate from Ole John?
Until the answer is yes, we ride with Eli.
The gift that keeps on giving...
Quote:
out and get a QB.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
I am thinking Eli feels those 2 Lombardi Trophies are worth the 16 Million in base salary he is making next year.
What he says in December is meaningless. Actions in the spring will speak volumes.
That said, Eli is probably under center week 1 in September 2019.
And well beyond. Going to be next to impossible to replace him on that no other qbs out there are any better, he wants to be a ny giant for his entire career, and the emotional attachment this org has for him, and the reprecussions they face (as we've seen) and uproar Mara and co. if they try to replace him. Mara may fear the last one
Eli doesn't owe the Giants a damn thing. If I was him, I wait for my $5M roster bonus to be paid. Then he can mull whether to retire. If no QB is drafted a month later, then he should announce his retirement and leave the Giants with Noodle Arm and Tanney and a cap hit of $11.2M sitting on the books. But at least the Giants wouldn't have to worry about mortgaging the future drafts to pick Tua/Fromm in 2020. They most certainly would have the #1 pick.
Quote:
In comment 14223625 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
out and get a QB.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Quote:
In comment 14223633 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14223625 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
out and get a QB.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Sounds crazy, but so is the certainty that he won't be traded. Since paying him, he has been called out by the owner through the media. OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to. And once again, we have another season where he doesn't suit up for 16 games.
Quote:
In comment 14223676 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14223633 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14223625 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
out and get a QB.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Sounds crazy, but so is the certainty that he won't be traded. Since paying him, he has been called out by the owner through the media. OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to. And once again, we have another season where he doesn't suit up for 16 games.
Please provide a source for thi:
He's a WR by the way, they get nicked up from time to time. I would never doubt his want to play and even practice as he loves it.
Quote:
In comment 14223689 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 14223676 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14223633 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14223625 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
out and get a QB.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Sounds crazy, but so is the certainty that he won't be traded. Since paying him, he has been called out by the owner through the media. OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to. And once again, we have another season where he doesn't suit up for 16 games.
Please provide a source for thi:
Quote:
OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to
He's a WR by the way, they get nicked up from time to time. I would never doubt his want to play and even practice as he loves it.
I'm not going to track down beat reporters links and pressers just to prove my point. Pat stated in his PC last week that Odell shouldn't be providing injury updates to the media. He was downplaying OBJ's status all week. OBJ goes ahead and makes the comment on social media (I don't know what platform. I don't follow him.) that "it ain't right". Saying he was getting scans and now he stated it was a hematoma. If you are interested, you can google "OBJ hematoma" and be entertained.
Spend the first round pick and let them come in and compete.
It will become self-evident.
I'm sure its news to others as well.
I'm sure its news to others as well.
It was discussed. OBJ writes a letter to himself on a Facebook Watch episode referencing him being called out.
I hope you are entertained. - ( New Window )
Lauletta? He'll be joining Webb on someone's practice squad. maybe. We saw what he can do- suck. More likely he gets the axe and is OOF soon.
Tanney? Be serious.
Manning is the only viable starting caliber qb on the roster the last two seasons.
Did you want to draft Darnold, Rosen, Allen etc. instead of Barkley? Didn't think so.
Verified account
@RVacchianoSNY
Following Following @RVacchianoSNY
More
Deal with it, Giants fans: Eli Manning is their best and most likely option to be the starting QB in 2019
Here's why, and why all the other options don't come close:
Why Eli Manning is the best option the Giants have at QB next year - ( New Window )
Neither says that Shurmur was upset.
Was it inferred? Yes. Is it reasonable to think that way? Yes.
At the end of the day though, there is no credible source saying that Shurmur directly spoke to OBJ, and that he was reprimanded for it.
Quote:
In comment 14223693 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14223689 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 14223676 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14223633 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14223625 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
out and get a QB.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Sounds crazy, but so is the certainty that he won't be traded. Since paying him, he has been called out by the owner through the media. OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to. And once again, we have another season where he doesn't suit up for 16 games.
Please provide a source for thi:
Quote:
OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to
He's a WR by the way, they get nicked up from time to time. I would never doubt his want to play and even practice as he loves it.
I'm not going to track down beat reporters links and pressers just to prove my point. Pat stated in his PC last week that Odell shouldn't be providing injury updates to the media. He was downplaying OBJ's status all week. OBJ goes ahead and makes the comment on social media (I don't know what platform. I don't follow him.) that "it ain't right". Saying he was getting scans and now he stated it was a hematoma. If you are interested, you can google "OBJ hematoma" and be entertained.
This is all so out of whack. You have things way out of order and are misquoting PS. I would correct you but whats the point.
Quote:
In comment 14223699 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 14223693 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14223689 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 14223676 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14223633 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14223625 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
out and get a QB.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
OBJ is not getting traded. Your not going to draft a QB, and leave him without that kind of a weapon.
Sounds crazy, but so is the certainty that he won't be traded. Since paying him, he has been called out by the owner through the media. OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to. And once again, we have another season where he doesn't suit up for 16 games.
Please provide a source for thi:
Quote:
OBJ continues to give injury updates through social media despite the HC telling him not to
He's a WR by the way, they get nicked up from time to time. I would never doubt his want to play and even practice as he loves it.
I'm not going to track down beat reporters links and pressers just to prove my point. Pat stated in his PC last week that Odell shouldn't be providing injury updates to the media. He was downplaying OBJ's status all week. OBJ goes ahead and makes the comment on social media (I don't know what platform. I don't follow him.) that "it ain't right". Saying he was getting scans and now he stated it was a hematoma. If you are interested, you can google "OBJ hematoma" and be entertained.
This is all so out of whack. You have things way out of order and are misquoting PS. I would correct you but whats the point.
Exactly Mr. Mexico!
The definition of insanity is repeating what will not work as if repeating the habit will produce a different result
That's why I have to keep posting. About Them. The insane ones.
Now, I'm not going to belabor the point. As I already wasted more time on that dumpster fire of a website that Nilay strung together than I care too. You can listen for yourself.
Pat gives the injury update and only Pat. - ( New Window )
Anyone want to bet we don't break six wins again?
The definition of insanity is repeating what will not work as if repeating the habit will produce a different result
That's why I have to keep posting. About Them. The insane ones.
You OK Bill? You do realize that people post to vent, not because they think the team is going to take action?
Plus, nobody thinks the Giants are insane. Incompetent is more like it, and the results are exhibit A.
Venting is fun and necessary. I'm not sure what getting stuck in the vent does for health or results?
Anyway, separate from all this stuff...Happy Holidays to you jcn
The definition of insanity is repeating what will not work as if repeating the habit will produce a different result
That's why I have to keep posting. About Them. The insane ones.
LOL - one of your best Bill2, and that's saying a lot!
Unfortunately I don't see a good prospect out there.
Yeah, the NFC is real dominant...
Venting is fun and necessary. I'm not sure what getting stuck in the vent does for health or results?
Anyway, separate from all this stuff...Happy Holidays to you jcn
That's a different story altogether - I think people use BBI as a heat sink, and sometimes there's a bit more heat to dump than it can handle.
Hope you and yours have a happy holiday season as well.
Was this to me?
If so, I'd say you have it backwards.
I have strong facts, but lose credibility with subjective thinking people. ;)
Now, I'm not going to belabor the point. As I already wasted more time on that dumpster fire of a website that Nilay strung together than I care too. You can listen for yourself. Pat gives the injury update and only Pat. - ( New Window )
Your timeline is off
The "it aint right" interview was well after he was ruled out for washington. he gave vague answers and clearly wasn't breaking any news.
It's obvious to all you've been getting a hold of it every day! 😂
Yes, I would still take Darnold in a heart beat. 21 year kid who looks to be a good one in a few years. I'll bet the Jets wouldn't trade him for Barkley straight up. If they keep kicking the can down the road on Eli, the team will be mediocre at best for the next 4-5 years - by then Barkley's best days will be long gone.
Anyone want to bet we don't break six wins again?
SPOT ON POST
The strength of the draft is Defense and there will be a great Edge or DL when we pick.
I'm not a season ticket holder so I don't have much power, but if I were I'd sell my tickets to fans of the opposing team. I'm hoping the last game of the season is a Cowboy home game. That's the kind of shit that gets Mara's attention.
Let the season play out, lets see what they do in the draft.
If they want a QB it just hurts them to say anything other than what PS said.
Or just speaking to the media. I think I believe less than 1% of what coaches tell the media. Especially our best reporters who may be the worst in the business.
But, imho, most importantly, there is a lot of vital information we do not know that prevents the scope of the analysis many posters try to assert.
So venting yes. When it comes to asserting we are analyzing, I think we are more limited than we would like to believe. That's true of all human endeavor since it is so easy to torture data into confessing that our feelings are valid. Nor are we likely to correct for the bias we attach to information and context we do not know
Here is what I think we do know:
1) To me the signs of a decline trend were evident in 2009 ( I consider 2011 an anomaly). I think the key to success or failure in the Eli era was abundantly available in the 2008 games against Cleveland.
2) There is a cap.
3) Interpretation of where you stand on the scale of NFl dominance is so skewed by a few plays and injuries that its a hard assessment to make
4) Replacing an often uninjured franchise QB oft asked to be a difference maker in a poor system is fraught with few success stories in NFL history. This era was always going to happen.
5) There are few known paths to sustained ( as in 3 years)NFl success without a franchise QB and better than average lines.
6) I cannot go overboard on a FO who is not yet in place 10 months and who inherited a mess so great I think that even 3 wins last year masks how bad they were.
7) Lastly, some analysis that is oft claimed as "clear" and Simple" is simply unknowable conjecture.
For example, I personally think the Maras where living in an updraft of factoid claims in an echo chamber from their Gm. For far too long. But thats my opinion based on finding no other good explanation for the last several years. I submit this year and next are properly considered a tax on the past.
But what no one knows is what Mara did about it. Once the mess was clear and the veil oof misinformation penetrated..We do not know if he asked permission to talk to BB or Harbaugh. We do not know what non media named expertise he asked or talked to. We do not know what GM or coaching offers were attempted and not won for factors beyond reasonable control. We do not know how may more outsiders and or other analytics now enter the decision matrix that were not there before last year.
Now, before you slam back that i am fishing in speculation for the purpose of praising Mara...I will not tell you...but I am telling you...you dont know. Period. Full Stop.
For venting to be analysis it has to have reasonable context, reasonable benchmarks to set reasonable expectations.
More importantly...in a Game rigged to the mean with the second most important variable being human motivation on the 53...interpretation requires time.
Most of all for analysis to be as sweeping as some of our venters claim...it has to have information we do not have.
Personally, I fear we will repeat the unending muck between Tittle and LT. But thats a fear. Its not even close to an analysis or even reasoned reasonable argumentation.
Take care Go Terps. Happy Holidays. I enjoy your perspectives and expect to next year as well.
Lauletta? He'll be joining Webb on someone's practice squad. maybe. We saw what he can do- suck. More likely he gets the axe and is OOF soon.
Tanney? Be serious.
Manning is the only viable starting caliber qb on the roster the last two seasons.
Did you want to draft Darnold, Rosen, Allen etc. instead of Barkley? Didn't think so.
Webb isn't even on the team. Super knowledgeable fan
He never said theyd be good years.
If he thinks it deep down as a football man and coach, that a 38 yr old Eli Manning is a good QB going forward, he should be summarily fired.
Eli is a declining and diminished QB who cant raise his play anymore.
But there are things we do know:
1. The Giants had a 42-54 record entering this season since they won the Super Bowl in 2011. We know the 2011 team was deeply flawed, got hot at the right time, and was by no means a model for future team development.
2. This was an enormous offseason where multiple factors lined up serendipitously to allow ownership to redefine the direction of the franchise. Each of these occurred:
- GM fired before end of 2017 season
- Head Coach fired before end of 2017 season
- #2 pick in the draft
- QB rich draft
- Eli had an out in his contract
It's a rare thing to have an opportunity to cleanly start over at GM, head coach, and quarterback at the same time. If the Giants were a tanker to be turned around, Mara had the chance to turn the full 180 degrees in a single offseason.
This was the opportunity to set the course for a new, ambitious future defined by innovative thinking at GM & HC, and inexpensive youth at QB.
Instead, we now have enormous questions at GM, HC, and QB.
The size of the opportunity wasted is, within the context of the NFL, difficult to quantify.
That was well played. ;)
You can vote with your dollars, or on in social media, or BBI. When the tenor of the fan base erupts it's heard. The beats take the temp of the fans, the coaches field the questions. The management hears the coaches.
The fans got McAdoo fired last year. Try on for size if the fan reaction would have been, "well the team is bottomed out, let's see of Geno fairs any better."
But there are things we do know:
1. The Giants had a 42-54 record entering this season since they won the Super Bowl in 2011. We know the 2011 team was deeply flawed, got hot at the right time, and was by no means a model for future team development.
2. This was an enormous offseason where multiple factors lined up serendipitously to allow ownership to redefine the direction of the franchise. Each of these occurred:
- GM fired before end of 2017 season
- Head Coach fired before end of 2017 season
- #2 pick in the draft
- QB rich draft
- Eli had an out in his contract
It's a rare thing to have an opportunity to cleanly start over at GM, head coach, and quarterback at the same time. If the Giants were a tanker to be turned around, Mara had the chance to turn the full 180 degrees in a single offseason.
This was the opportunity to set the course for a new, ambitious future defined by innovative thinking at GM & HC, and inexpensive youth at QB.
Instead, we now have enormous questions at GM, HC, and QB.
The size of the opportunity wasted is, within the context of the NFL, difficult to quantify.
Not to speak for Bill, but the issue I have with the above is
1. Barkley over Darnold is still a tough, tough question to answer and may well be 2 years from now. I don't think you can say the wrong choice was made at this point. I certainly don't think you can make it as emphatically as you do.
2. Many of us like the GM. You may think he is a dinosaur but I don't think there's a lot of fact to support that and in fact there are facts that refute it both from Carolina and the Giants. Certainly he had an excellent draft and a shaky free agency but that could yet change for either. This season proves nothing...the team improved a bit from last year for sure but it was never likely to be a one year turnaround. The best we could hope for was meaningful December ball...I'm not really sure we got that but we were not far off.
3. I think the coach has been shaky with time management and wider play calling. The team has played hard for him though and he gets another year to improve.
Mara cleaned house. He didn't go too far outside the organisation but Gettleman was enormously well thought of from his time here as PPD. You shouldn't write him off inside of one year.
Quote:
In comment 14223625 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
out and get a QB.
If the value is there when we pick sure grab him, but it's not we have so many other spots we can fill it's not a big deal.
I don't like this crop of QBs as much as last years. 2020 is a year where if we suck again we trade the farm for someone like Tua or Fromm.
If I had to guess, Im thinking were selling multiple premium picks over a couple of drafts for Tua or Fromm in 2020 as well.
Don't discount players. OBJ would have a dead cap hit of $12M if traded during the 2020 draft. The $2.75M portion of his salary that is guaranteed for that year would be the responsibility of trading team. Our #1 and OBJ should vault us to the top.
Trade one of your best players because you took too long to find a QB, and potentially passed on one twice.
Great strategy for building a winner.
.........
Mara cleaned house. He didn't go too far outside the organisation but Gettleman was enormously well thought of from his time here as PPD. You shouldn't write him off inside of one year.
Agreed.
This team was rotten to the core. While the FO offered hope to the fans, they knew they needed to clean house and did so.
No doubt a replacement QB is needed soon if not now, but the oline is far more decrepit than Eli and a decent oline allows time for the Giants to find a suitable QB while giving Eli a chance to win. This was never a 1 year rebuild and is likely a three year job.
- Head Coach fired before end of 2017 season
- #2 pick in the draft
- QB rich draft
- Eli had an out in his contract
the "out"?
Let the season play out, lets see what they do in the draft.
If they want a QB it just hurts them to say anything other than what PS said.
This. What do you want him to say? It's a presser, who cares, actions will speak for themselves in the off-season. Let morons like Boomer and Gio (he's almost as bad as carton) lose their minds over this!
- Head Coach fired before end of 2017 season
- #2 pick in the draft
- QB rich draft
- Eli had an out in his contract
the "out"?
Eli never had the "out". The Giants did with the roster bonus. The final 2 years of Eli's contract were essentially team options. The timing of the RB is such that Eli wouldn't miss out on the initial wave of FA in the event the team didn't pay.
This statement is just so far off from reality...surely you can't actually believe DG's 1st draft was an embarrassment...?
We dont have one player on the OL that was drafted by Reese on the team. We have one player on the DL that Reese drafted. We have 1 LB and 1 DB on the roster that Reese drafted. It was that bad people.
Quote:
He won't, but if Mara opted to fired both Gettleman and Shurmur it would be well deserved. They've been an embarrassment in year 1.
This statement is just so far off from reality...surely you can't actually believe DG's 1st draft was an embarrassment...?
The GM has a lot of duties besides the draft. How did these things go:
- He helped hire Shurmur. Remember..."this is an adult"?
- He made Solder the highest paid offensive lineman in the NFL. Great move.
- Signed Stewart. Great move.
- Signed Omameh. Great move.
- Traded for overpaid Ogeltree. Great move.
- Paid Beckham a huge contract (yet the offense still sucks)
- Stuck with Eli
I'm also not as convinced as others that the draft was so great. I still think picking Barkley was foolish. He's a wonderful player, but how much difference has he made? The offense still stinks.
This team is staring down the barrel of 5-11, and people make the argument that the people running the show are doing a good job. It's incredible.
What's sad is that we have to endure another dog shit team, and yet there are still so many fans insisting things are going well.
It is year 1. A year where they have turned the roster over by 70% and changed over half the starters. They will end up being more successful than last year - even if it isn't a playoff year.
And Gettleman has not only shown he is willing to make hard decisions on his predecessor's players, he's done the same on his own signings.
For the first time in years, we seem to have a plan. The main issue fans have is that plan didn't work Day 1, which is odd as hell. But then again when some people will call this an embarrassment in year 1, anything is fucking possible.
It is completely a strawman that's been created.
People have been excited that we have Barkley. That's about it.
It's a work in progress.
That's improvement. They also have a 1000 yard rusher for the first time since 2012. That's also improvement.
It is year 1. A year where they have turned the roster over by 70% and changed over half the starters. They will end up being more successful than last year - even if it isn't a playoff year.
And Gettleman has not only shown he is willing to make hard decisions on his predecessor's players, he's done the same on his own signings.
For the first time in years, we seem to have a plan. The main issue fans have is that plan didn't work Day 1, which is odd as hell. But then again when some people will call this an embarrassment in year 1, anything is fucking possible.
The biggest one to me is the ability to cut bait. Love it and the vast majority of people in this world are unwilling to say I was wrong and make the moves to rectify their mistake. In the NFL it seems like the Pats and Steelers are the exceptions to this.
That's improvement. They also have a 1000 yard rusher for the first time since 2012. That's also improvement.
That works both ways. They also just got shut out at home for the first time since 2013.
Other than not drafting a QB, what evidence even supports that?
We got rid of JPP, turned the roster over, changed half the starters. What part of that, other than Eli being one of the starters that remained indicates "making a run with Eli"?
And unfortunately, a lot of the people saying it should know better.
Tell me I'm wrong.
Quote:
including 40 points, once.
That's improvement. They also have a 1000 yard rusher for the first time since 2012. That's also improvement.
That works both ways. They also just got shut out at home for the first time since 2013.
I don't consider that any significant development. If we kicked a garbage time FG would it make any difference? We've had tons of low scoring affairs since 2013.
Here is a question:
Is anyone upset we didnt draft Larry Fitzgerald in 2004? He may have been the best player in the draft & a sure HOFer. Could have regrouped with Collins a year removed from 10-6 & 4 years removed from a SB appearance.
The plan is the trenches. OL and DL. You are going to see it more in this draft.
Here is a question:
Is anyone upset we didnt draft Larry Fitzgerald in 2004? He may have been the best player in the draft & a sure HOFer. Could have regrouped with Collins a year removed from 10-6 & 4 years removed from a SB appearance.
Yeah, the Chargers might be upset they didn't take Fitzgerald.
I can't wait to see the same exquisite football mind who signed the likes of Solder and Omameh working his magic again.
What you don';t realize is that right now, Darnold only has potential. The debate goes on if he can get some hardware.
A better question is will people be upset we drafted Barkley if 5 years from now, the Jets aren't resigning Darnold and they've been mediocre?
He's actually done better than Norwell this year and teh consensus was that we needed to sign one of them in the offseason.
What you don';t realize is that right now, Darnold only has potential. The debate goes on if he can get some hardware.
A better question is will people be upset we drafted Barkley if 5 years from now, the Jets aren't resigning Darnold and they've been mediocre?
This is all true. 2004 worked fantastic which is why some of us were surprised the Giants didnt take a similar approach in 2018.
Accorsis philosophy has always been if you have the opportunity to draft a franchise QB, you do it. The stars aligned last year.
Quote:
be upset that we didn't draft Fitz when we ended up with two SB's with Eli at QB?
What you don';t realize is that right now, Darnold only has potential. The debate goes on if he can get some hardware.
A better question is will people be upset we drafted Barkley if 5 years from now, the Jets aren't resigning Darnold and they've been mediocre?
This is all true. 2004 worked fantastic which is why some of us were surprised the Giants didnt take a similar approach in 2018.
Accorsis philosophy has always been if you have the opportunity to draft a franchise QB, you do it. The stars aligned last year.
That is Dave Gettleman's philosophy as well.
He said that if you have the opportunity to get one of those guys, you move heaven and earth to go up and get them.
The disconnect is that some people can't reconcile the fact that he did not see one of those guys in the draft.
He's actually done better than Norwell this year and teh consensus was that we needed to sign one of them in the offseason.
I was wrong on Solder. His first 8 games were terrible. But he has turned it aorund.
Tell me I'm wrong.
You're not wrong. If we'd drafted Darnold (or Jackson, who by the way has turned his team's fortunes around THIS YEAR) we wouldn't have the huge specter of QB problems (forked Eli or ????) hanging over the entire team.
I know that since we drafted Barkley it became incredibly easy to find a quarterback, but nevertheless there is enormous reason for concern.
Quote:
My main critique of Gettleman is that I do not see a plan. There were a handful of moves that made me think DG thought this team was close to competing, which I thought was asinine. If DG thought (and acted) like he knew this would be a shit team, I'd be much more confident in him.
The plan is the trenches. OL and DL. You are going to see it more in this draft.
Then we should have drafted Chubb.
Then we should have drafted Chubb.
That or Nelson. But Barkley is really good. And if he drafts people this year to help him, its still a good thing.
Quote:
If we had drafted Darnold... The team could be in worse shape with a worse record and the same people bashing Gettleman would be preaching patience.
Tell me I'm wrong.
You're not wrong. If we'd drafted Darnold (or Jackson, who by the way has turned his team's fortunes around THIS YEAR) we wouldn't have the huge specter of QB problems (forked Eli or ????) hanging over the entire team.
I know that since we drafted Barkley it became incredibly easy to find a quarterback, but nevertheless there is enormous reason for concern.
You really don't know that about drafting either of them. Jury is still out on both, imo.
Two takes on QB hell, to me the second can be worse than the first:
1. Have no identifiable present or future QB's on the roster.
2. Have a QB on the roster who you've spent a ton of resources to secure and made a multi-year commitment to, but who hasn't yet shown the return on investment.
I know you're a big fan of Jackson, I think he's an interesting guy. Jury is out imo on whether he can carry a team if he had to (without a playoff-caliber defense). He can certainly make plays with his legs, but is that something you can count on? Very, very few mobile QB's stay healthy consistently enough to expect that to be the norm. A QB needs to prove they can make plays from within the pocket as well, and I don't think Jackson has proven that.
An good, independent GM would say that it's time to stop chasing Miracle #3 with Eli, because you simply can't win with his eroding skill set, and start finding the next QB with real reps in real game situations.
If Eli is rightfully sent packing after this year, then I'll eat my words. Until then, Gettleman is following the marching order of Ole John.
It is strange. Gettleman went on and on about how highly rated Barkley was - one of the top ratings he had given a player since Peyton Manning, and that scouting seems to be right on the money. Instead of praising Gettleman at least for being dead on in his scouting assessment, he's getting killed for not reaching for a QB he may not have felt was going to be a guy to build around.
In essence, it is a double-whammy based on nothing more than the hype of the QB class, and until shown otherwise, it is still just hype. Meanwhile, Barkley has already shown that the scouting assessment wasn't hype.
This whole thing still boils down to people being upset because we didn't pick a QB. Bottom line.
He's actually done better than Norwell this year and teh consensus was that we needed to sign one of them in the offseason.
He's average at best, and that's an extremely charitable assessment, yet is the highest paid tackle in the league. Andrew Norwell's failures don't de facto make Solder a good signing.
Quote:
Then we should have drafted Chubb.
That or Nelson. But Barkley is really good. And if he drafts people this year to help him, its still a good thing.
I'm no oline expert - I usually defer to Joey in VA - but I've seen a good portion of three Colts games this year on NFLN replay and Nelson is a monster. Guy just moves people from point A to point B with some real dominance. What he did at Notre Dame has definitely translated to the pro level.
He was killing the Dallas interior this past weekend. It was just a thing of beauty...