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NFT: Knicks-Suns game thread.

manh george : 12/17/2018 7:33 pm
I didn't see one, so I started this.

Btw, at some point the Knicks are either going to have to find a slot for John Jenkins from the G-League, or lose him elsewhere. Jenkins missed a few games to injury but in the 12 he played, he is second in the league in scoring (27.3), averaging 50.6% in fg, 46.5% in 3-point shots, and 96.2% in ft. The guy is a shooter. And he's 6'4"--not undersized. The Knicks can use 3-point shooting talent.

Maybe if we can trade Courtney Lee we can find a slot for him.

And now onto the game, which I can envision the Knicks losing to awful Phoenix in the third game in 4 days.
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Im good with Fiz  
Carl in CT : 12/17/2018 10:58 pm : link
Making players earn their minutes (esp young guys who will be with us going forward), showcase vets, and yes with the exception of Lance, I see improvement in Noah, Frank, Dotty, THJR (yes him), Knox is better, Mudiay, Kanter (hmmmmm), Lee = incomplete, Burke (not a fav of mine), Robinson (Ill give his improvement to the front office for finding him), so yes I believe in the front office and the coach. Give us time have patience.
Booker  
DanMetroMan : 12/17/2018 11:14 pm : link
trolling Kanter and I don't think it's friends kidding around
Link - ( New Window )
With mudiay emerging  
nygiants16 : 12/17/2018 11:52 pm : link
Do you look to move frank to get rid of hardaways contract?

If knicks want a max slot thry need to clear 10 million at minimum
Much as I'd like to do that  
Greg from LI : 12/17/2018 11:59 pm : link
It depends on whether or not they can re-sign Mudiay
RE: With mudiay emerging  
Vanzetti : 12/18/2018 12:54 am : link
In comment 14224220 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Do you look to move frank to get rid of hardaways contract?

If knicks want a max slot thry need to clear 10 million at minimum


I wouldnt unless you get signals from KD that he is really interested (which I think most of us tend to doubt)

Anthony Davis looming. I think Knicks should just focus on drafting good young players. Big free agents will come when they see a good young core
You think the officials in the NFL are bad  
dep026 : 12/18/2018 9:03 am : link
check out the walk Harden got away with at the end of the Jazz game? Ridiculous. Ref should be suspended immediately.

Plus, Westbrook - by far the fakest tough guy again in the NBA. Harden and Westbrook are a f'n joke anymore and I root for their teams to lose.
RE: With mudiay emerging  
Enzo : 12/18/2018 9:10 am : link
In comment 14224220 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Do you look to move frank to get rid of hardaways contract?

If knicks want a max slot thry need to clear 10 million at minimum

I am not convinced Mudiay has "emerged", nor do I sacrifice Frank unless it's in a trade for a stud.
There's no need to clear a salary now  
Heisenberg : 12/18/2018 9:19 am : link
Unless they get a decent offer for Hardaway, they should keep him until the summer. They can always package assets to move him if there's a big fish they want to sign.

The guy they need to trade is Burke. He's a backup PG and we already have too many guards (at least when they're all healthy). the PG minutes should go to Mudiay and Frank.

And if you can dump Kanter and not take back salary for next year, I'd do that too.
RE: With mudiay emerging  
JustaDiscussion : 12/18/2018 9:22 am : link
In comment 14224220 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Do you look to move frank to get rid of hardaways contract?

If knicks want a max slot thry need to clear 10 million at minimum


More often than not, Frank has not been impressive this year. Last night was tough to watch for Frank. I'm not sure he'd be enough to entice a team to take on THjr. Especially with the trade kicker, I don't think that there is much interest in Hardaway around the league. I'd bet that the Knicks are going to have to suck it up and wait out Timmy's contract. Imo though, hoping that Mudiay continues his current play, he is yet another example of a player who was just awful for over 3 seasons before suddenly showing signs of life. There is still hope for Frank.
again  
Steve in Greenwich : 12/18/2018 9:23 am : link
you can deal Frank to move Hardaways contract during the summer if the cap space is needed. Absolutely no reason to do it now. For once can the Knicks just let the process play out? How many times do we see these superstars in the offseason announce they are going to sign with a team that can't actually afford their contract and then within 2 days that team clears out large chunks of cap space to not only fit the superstar but also bring in whoever else that guy may want to play with.
yeah, trading Frenchy would be a real sacrifice  
Greg from LI : 12/18/2018 9:24 am : link
I cannot possible roll my eyes hard enough
RE: yeah, trading Frenchy would be a real sacrifice  
Enzo : 12/18/2018 9:33 am : link
In comment 14224406 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I cannot possible roll my eyes hard enough

how many Knick games would you say you've watched this season?
Frank has shown glimpses of offensive competence  
Heisenberg : 12/18/2018 9:36 am : link
He's still really young. There's no reason to give up on him now or use him to move a contract.
I think it is important for kp to play  
nygiants16 : 12/18/2018 9:51 am : link
not to attract free agents but to see how he meshes with some of the young guys..

I dont think a max is coming, i think they will resign mudiay and vonleh as of right now and go with full youth movement and let the team grow..

now that changes if they trade tim and lee...
RE: RE: yeah, trading Frenchy would be a real sacrifice  
Greg from LI : 12/18/2018 9:52 am : link
In comment 14224424 Enzo said:
Quote:
how many Knick games would you say you've watched this season?


8 or 9, I think. Now yell about how Frenchy's brilliance doesn't show up in box scores. Guy fucking sucks regardless of how good his defense is (which is good, but not the otherworldly HOF level defense his fan club pretends it is).
wow  
Heisenberg : 12/18/2018 10:03 am : link
RE: RE: RE: yeah, trading Frenchy would be a real sacrifice  
Enzo : 12/18/2018 10:04 am : link
In comment 14224471 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14224424 Enzo said:


Quote:


how many Knick games would you say you've watched this season?



8 or 9, I think. Now yell about how Frenchy's brilliance doesn't show up in box scores. Guy fucking sucks regardless of how good his defense is (which is good, but not the otherworldly HOF level defense his fan club pretends it is).

in other words, maybe 2 or 3. Keep those hot takes coming!
No, 8 or 9  
Greg from LI : 12/18/2018 10:06 am : link
What good is watching more games than me doing you, since you can't admit that Frank sucks?
Frank  
Jon in NYC : 12/18/2018 10:09 am : link
doesn't suck. Especially if he keeps up his play post benching.
Frank was awful in November  
Heisenberg : 12/18/2018 10:10 am : link
Got benched and then showed flashes when he came back.

He has a long way to go to be a decent offensive player. But I'm not in a rush to get rid of him. I think there's a 3 and D guy with a little bit of playmaking in there somewhere.
indeed, if he can keep giving them scintillating 3-11 performances  
Greg from LI : 12/18/2018 10:12 am : link
he'll really be showing something.

He's one of the very worst offensive guards in league. You all can huff and puff about that all you want, there is no rational case you can rebut that with, which is why I hear so much about "But he's got such a pure stroke!"
Not only is he bad, but he's actually been WORSE than he was last year  
Greg from LI : 12/18/2018 10:12 am : link
It would be one thing if he still sucked but at least showed some progress, but nope, not the case.
Greg isn't totally wrong  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 12/18/2018 10:19 am : link
I'm rooting for Frank. He's far from polished offensively. He will have a couple good games where we get excited if he makes a few shots. It's the same way when people get excited when the Giants beat a few teams led by backup QBs.

But Frank IS only 20. I'm hoping he could turn into a Chauncey Billups by the time he is 22-23. I'm not selling him, yet. He's responded to his benching. Fizdale fixed Mudiay and made him consistent this past month. I'm hoping to see the same with Frank.
I never understood  
dep026 : 12/18/2018 10:21 am : link
the fact people were hoping he turned out to be George Hill. I mean Hill is a decent player, not anything people made him out to be (some pegged him an all-star here a few years ago... LOL).

With a top 10 pick, you gotta do better than George Hill.
We would all take George Hill now  
Heisenberg : 12/18/2018 10:36 am : link
.
The situation with Frank seems fairly obvious to me.  
JustaDiscussion : 12/18/2018 10:43 am : link
He's young, has a minimal contract, and has shown (although limited) flashes of ability that many in today's nba lack. The Knicks are in rebuilding mode. The idea is to try to find as many young players with growth potential as possible and see if they can tap into it. With Frank they just need to keep trying. If it doesn't work out so be it, but for those who see no potential, I just completely disagree. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll say it again, human beings don't often progress along a linear curve.
I don't see how you could watch Frank's first two games back from  
Heisenberg : 12/18/2018 10:48 am : link
being benched and be ready to give up on him.
There are more busts than not  
Jon in NYC : 12/18/2018 11:04 am : link
in the NBA. 3 of the top 10 picks that year I would classify as good NBA players. Then another 3 or 4 of the next 20.

Frank has one all world skillset, which is his off ball defense. He is a very good but not great on ball defender, and a very good passer. At 20, you can work with that.

He's also had enough very strong games (including 2 of his last 5) that you just can't write him off yet.
Very good passing is an overstatement, I think  
Greg from LI : 12/18/2018 11:09 am : link
.
RE: We would all take George Hill now  
dep026 : 12/18/2018 11:14 am : link
In comment 14224587 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
.


George Hill of today? He sucks
George Hill of his prime? Middle of the pack at best PG.

Thats not a top 10 investment.
If you say very good passing  
Carl in CT : 12/18/2018 11:19 am : link
Then you have to say very poor handle.
RE: If you say very good passing  
Jon in NYC : 12/18/2018 11:20 am : link
In comment 14224660 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
Then you have to say very poor handle.


Terrible handle.
if you want a  
Steve in Greenwich : 12/18/2018 11:29 am : link
sobering reality of the NBA draft, this was a really good article I saw a couple years ago where they spit out what the "average" player selected in each spot of the first round is. It basically takes every player ever drafted in each slot and averages out their win shares / win shares per 48 / wins above replacement / etc. and spits out a player that best matches those averages. Hint - George Hill out of the 8th pick would be way above what the Knicks could realistically hope for.
Heres what you can realistically expect from every first-round NBA Draft pick - ( New Window )
RE: I never understood  
Enzo : 12/18/2018 11:31 am : link
In comment 14224555 dep026 said:
Quote:
the fact people were hoping he turned out to be George Hill. I mean Hill is a decent player, not anything people made him out to be (some pegged him an all-star here a few years ago... LOL).

With a top 10 pick, you gotta do better than George Hill.

players taken with #8 pick this century:
Frank, Marquse Chriss, Stanley Johnson, Stauskas, KCP, Terrence Ross, Brandon Knight, Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Rudy Gay, Channing Frye, Rafael Araujo, TJ Ford, Chris Wilcox, Diop, Jamal Crawford.

Is there a single all-star appearance in that group? Yes you can find good players all through the draft, but outside the top 5 the talent typically drops off in a big way and it gets harder and harder to find good players.
RE: No, 8 or 9  
Enzo : 12/18/2018 11:32 am : link
In comment 14224517 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
What good is watching more games than me doing you, since you can't admit that Frank sucks?

your takes are worthless.
Oh man....if someone I respected told me that, I'd be devastated  
Greg from LI : 12/18/2018 11:33 am : link
But since it's a blithering idiot.....
RE: Oh man....if someone I respected told me that, I'd be devastated  
Enzo : 12/18/2018 11:36 am : link
In comment 14224676 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But since it's a blithering idiot.....

Your reaction to my comment is irrelevant...and you can make all the personal attacks you want. But the bottom line is you don't watch the games. So why should anyone care what you have to say?
I don't watch every single game, no  
Greg from LI : 12/18/2018 11:40 am : link
Because I don't live in NY and most of their games aren't televised here. I watch when they're on.

I don't need to watch every game to know that Frenchy is 155th out of 159 guards who have played at least 20 games in TS%, for example. Why don't you regale me with paeans to Frenchy's glorious shooting form, honed from your extensive viewing of his offensive ineptitude?
RE: RE: We would all take George Hill now  
Heisenberg : 12/18/2018 11:42 am : link
In comment 14224652 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14224587 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


.



George Hill of today? He sucks
George Hill of his prime? Middle of the pack at best PG.

Thats not a top 10 investment.


It absolutely is a top ten investment. As was noted, picks outside the top 5 are still pretty hit or miss. George Hill has had a very solid career and most teams would sign up for that career with a #8 pick. Your expectations for a #8 pick are pretty unreasonable.

all that said, it's pretty unlikely that Frank approaches George Hill's career at this point. It's more likely that he's out of the league then has a 10 year run like Hill has.
Frank  
TyreeHelmet : 12/18/2018 11:54 am : link
The guy still needs to improve big time on offense but if you think he sucks you clearly haven't been watching or understand basketball. I think he can develop into a very good starting guard in this league. He's smart, a very good on ball and team defender, and plays unselfishly ( to a fault at times).
kp has to be doing some sort of contact drills right?  
nygiants16 : 12/18/2018 5:03 pm : link
If not that has to be a concern
RE: kp has to be doing some sort of contact drills right?  
TyreeHelmet : 12/18/2018 5:49 pm : link
In comment 14225230 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
If not that has to be a concern


Would you come back this season if you were him? A lot to risk with a max contract on the line.
RE: RE: kp has to be doing some sort of contact drills right?  
nygiants16 : 12/18/2018 6:04 pm : link
In comment 14225282 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 14225230 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


If not that has to be a concern



Would you come back this season if you were him? A lot to risk with a max contract on the line.


i am not talking about playimg, i am just talking about prscticing...

but i do think it is very important for him to play to get the rust off and go into a nirmal iffseason
That would be something if Frank entered the Jared Jeffries, Lance  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/18/2018 7:12 pm : link
Thomas space of "the good things he does don't show up on a statsheet".

Maybe Frank can develop into a Trevor Ariza type player down the road, but I believe in the NBA if you're lottery special, you see something worth hanging on to right away.
There's more to the Frank situation than just his development.  
bceagle05 : 12/18/2018 7:18 pm : link
Mudiay is a free agent, Trier and Dotson are restricted free agents after next season, and the Knicks have a high draft pick and money to spend this summer. Big roster decisions have to be made in the next year - can't play or pay everyone. If the Knicks don't believe in Frank, they'd be foolish not to gauge his trade value.
RE: Just keep our fingers crossed for Zion  
djm : 12/18/2018 9:45 pm : link
In comment 14224128 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
.


Man if they were ever going to catch the lotto break this would be the year. Knicks could go from zero to 60 in no time if they hit the lotto...
Hawks and Cavs win tonight, too.  
bceagle05 : 12/18/2018 10:14 pm : link
When the smoke clears on the Knicks brutal January schedule, they may have the worst record in basketball. KP may provide a spark down the stretch, but he won't be a miracle worker in limited action.
Almost certainly bullshit, but good discussion either way:  
Jon in NYC : 12/18/2018 10:21 pm : link
@Donahew_KUVN_TX
Follow Follow @Donahew_KUVN_TX
More
I have a reliable set of ears in the front office and Im hearing the #Mavs are ready to move on from Matthews. Both sides are motivated to move him and a second rounder for Tim Hardaway Jr...More to come #MFFL⁠ ⁠ #Mavericks #Knicks
RE: Almost certainly bullshit, but good discussion either way:  
nygiants16 : 12/18/2018 10:22 pm : link
In comment 14225543 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
@Donahew_KUVN_TX
Follow Follow @Donahew_KUVN_TX
More
I have a reliable set of ears in the front office and Im hearing the #Mavs are ready to move on from Matthews. Both sides are motivated to move him and a second rounder for Tim Hardaway Jr...More to come #MFFL⁠ ⁠ #Mavericks #Knicks


where do i sign?
I didn't even want to post that tweet  
bceagle05 : 12/18/2018 10:25 pm : link
but it's fun to think about. Supposedly that was the first tweet from that account - strange way to pop your Twitter cherry if it's some idiot looking for attention. Here's hoping and praying...
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