So the Mets invite him to spring training. Still a fast guy. Approaching 40.
What do we know? Seems relatively durable. Good vet presence? Pinch-runner? Spot CF? Cant be for but a few bucks. Good move?
As long as hes been around, I know next to nothing about the guy.
How does this move affect any other possible OF moves?
Happy Tuesday, BBI!
Jay Jaffe on Ramos
"Now that they have Ramos, the key for the Mets is finding another catcher with whom to pair him. Between Kevin Plawecki, Devin Mesoraco, Tomas Nido, Jose Lobaton and Travis dArnaud, the team got just an 82 wRC+ offensive showing (.208/.297/.355) from its catchers in 2018, and a total of 0.7 WAR by our measures (0.8 via Baseball-Reference, and 1.5 WARP via Baseball Prospectus). Mesoraco and Lobaton are both free agents, while the going-on-30-year-old dArnaud, the best defender of the bunch (41.8 FRAA career, 11.4 FRAA in 2017) is coming off April 2018 Tommy John surgery and has a track record for health that would make Ramos blanch.
All told, our Depth Charts projections suggest that the signing of Ramos eyeballs as about a one-win upgrade over a Plawecki/dArnaud pairing. Given that the Mets now project as an 86-win team, this is exactly the type of move they should be making, one that significantly increases their odds of securing a playoff spot without compromising their longer-term resources. When was the last time anybody could say that about a move that the Mets made?"
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That guy was brutal and was ultimately responsible for bring back Bobby Bonilla the 2nd time. They dumped his bad contract and took back Bobby Bo's and are still paying it.
Lol Mets
Jay Jaffe on Ramos
"Now that they have Ramos, the key for the Mets is finding another catcher with whom to pair him. Between Kevin Plawecki, Devin Mesoraco, Tomas Nido, Jose Lobaton and Travis dArnaud, the team got just an 82 wRC+ offensive showing (.208/.297/.355) from its catchers in 2018, and a total of 0.7 WAR by our measures (0.8 via Baseball-Reference, and 1.5 WARP via Baseball Prospectus). Mesoraco and Lobaton are both free agents, while the going-on-30-year-old dArnaud, the best defender of the bunch (41.8 FRAA career, 11.4 FRAA in 2017) is coming off April 2018 Tommy John surgery and has a track record for health that would make Ramos blanch.
All told, our Depth Charts projections suggest that the signing of Ramos eyeballs as about a one-win upgrade over a Plawecki/dArnaud pairing. Given that the Mets now project as an 86-win team, this is exactly the type of move they should be making, one that significantly increases their odds of securing a playoff spot without compromising their longer-term resources. When was the last time anybody could say that about a move that the Mets made?" Link - ( New Window )
LOL:
Remember when people on here tried to argue that TDA was not injury prone. He just had continual, unrelated, fluke injuries.
That guy was brutal and was ultimately responsible for bring back Bobby Bonilla the 2nd time. They dumped his bad contract and took back Bobby Bo's and are still paying it.
Lol Mets
Yup that's the one. Switch hitter/Was a middling prospect with the Braves. Went to Korea and this season slugged 43 homers with a .980 OPS, 18 steals 71 walks. He's viewed a potential 4th OF type, not some big time hidden gem.
How about we send a minor league invite to Jordany Valdespin too while we are at it. We need a back up middle infielder and he just won back to back MVPs Indy League and Dominican summer league.
Why dump Lagares? Money? Injury prone? He's a gold glover who was hitting .340 before going down last year. I get that its a small sample and he's never been a 300 hitter and he's always been streaky... BUT he's a no risk let's see what we have in this guy as an every day CF.
79 games
94 games
30 games
and I feel like he was plan A going into those seasons and left the team scrambling trying to find a legit CFer or putting a player who is not a CFer in CF.
And for that he has a $9M salary.
I like him as a player, but he can't stay healthy, so for that $$$ I'd look to trade him and either live with Nimmo in CF or bring in a more reliable one.
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finished. He can still run and play the OF but arguably the worst hitter in baseball over the past 2 seasons. If they add a big OF and dump Lagares, Davis would be okay as a 5th OF/Pinch runner otherwise he shouldn't make the team.
Why dump Lagares? Money? Injury prone? He's a gold glover who was hitting .340 before going down last year. I get that its a small sample and he's never been a 300 hitter and he's always been streaky... BUT he's a no risk let's see what we have in this guy as an every day CF.
Lagares is owed 9 million and yes is beyond injury prone. If you add say.. Pollock in CF at his projected salary it would be a very high rate to pay a Lagares a 4th OF given the payroll. The mets themselves have said Lagares will not play every day as hes proven he can hit RHP
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In comment 14224268 DanMetroMan said:
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finished. He can still run and play the OF but arguably the worst hitter in baseball over the past 2 seasons. If they add a big OF and dump Lagares, Davis would be okay as a 5th OF/Pinch runner otherwise he shouldn't make the team.
Why dump Lagares? Money? Injury prone? He's a gold glover who was hitting .340 before going down last year. I get that its a small sample and he's never been a 300 hitter and he's always been streaky... BUT he's a no risk let's see what we have in this guy as an every day CF.
Lagares is owed 9 million and yes is beyond injury prone. If you add say.. Pollock in CF at his projected salary it would be a very high rate to pay a Lagares a 4th OF given the payroll. The mets themselves have said Lagares will not play every day as hes proven he can hit RHP
Does replacing Lagares with Pollock really move the needle? Similar durability concerns...and even when he has been healthy Pollock hasn't really produced over the last 3 years..
Has eclipsed 500 plate appearances only once, so durability is a question. That one season was pretty great, though. Makes sense for team that would benefit from high-ceiling, shorter-term investment. A huge AAV on a two-year deal is possible, but a bigger guarantee is hard to pass up.
Player Notes
Pollock became a true five-tool player in 2014, when a swing change unlocked previously dormant in-game power. Peak Pollock was on display the following season when he was healthy and generated a whopping 6.8 WAR. But the outfielder has been plagued by injuries during four of the last five seasons and has missed about 50 games during each of the last two. The Diamondbacks have extended him a qualifying offer ($17.9 million), which sets a high bar to clear for teams that to offer Pollock an upcharged, short-term deal, as is often the case for injury-prone players. Healthy Pollock is a well-rounded All Star, not only an impact bat but also a plus defensive center fielder.
But losing a second and intl $$ weighs more against a ST signing than a longer bigger deal.
OK..still don't see it as a significant upgrade, but maybe because I'm bullish on Lagares talent level...
Plus.. I'm super opposed to giving any offensive player more than $10M a year when Harper and Machado are out there...
It's been 14 years since we signed the best free agent.
But losing a second and intl $$ weighs more against a ST signing than a longer bigger deal.
Great point.. Pollock for 3 years or less is ideal.
Quick question.. Did we lose a pick by signing Ramos?
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if you throw out everything Pollock has done before the past 2 seasons... 103 wRC+ in 2017, 110 in 2018... Juan Lagares career wRC+... 85. Pollock wOBA the past 2 .340 and .338, Lagares career .290. So yeah, Pollock and his 110-ish games played is 100% a significant upgrade over Lagares or at least the Lagares we saw 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018.
OK..still don't see it as a significant upgrade, but maybe because I'm bullish on Lagares talent level...
Plus.. I'm super opposed to giving any offensive player more than $10M a year when Harper and Machado are out there...
It's been 14 years since we signed the best free agent.
1. Brodie has made clear they aren't going to be in on Harper so if that's your reasoning prepare to be very disappointed
2. 10 million a year is NOTHING in today's game. Brantley just got 16 million, McCutchen got 17.
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Is he is a GREAT fit if its a short term signing.
But losing a second and intl $$ weighs more against a ST signing than a longer bigger deal.
Great point.. Pollock for 3 years or less is ideal.
Quick question.. Did we lose a pick by signing Ramos?
We did not lose a pick
Primarily a RF, wouldn't that be fine, since you can play Nimmo, Corforto and Legares in center? No idea what McNeil's role will be but he could get spot starts in left, maybe, if needed? 10-15 a season? Keeps his bat in the order.
Yanks fans can say what kind of a clubhouse vet Cabrera would be (I don't know). He's 34, can still hit, appears pretty durable (played 150-plus games in 2017), hits for average.
Thoughts?
I wonder if they've considered Mcneil in CF. He seemed to have more speed than Nimmo + Conforto, Lagares could obviously spell him once in a while too.
Ultimately I think the best route is via trade to add a young guy who has a chance to develop into something similar to Pollock. Hamilton would have made some sense but I get that he probably wanted a situation that guaranteed playing time.
That would really be the cherry on top.
Nimmo
Pollock
Cano
Conforto
Ramos
Mcneil
Frazier/Alonso
(pitcher)
Rosario
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In comment 14224380 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
if you throw out everything Pollock has done before the past 2 seasons... 103 wRC+ in 2017, 110 in 2018... Juan Lagares career wRC+... 85. Pollock wOBA the past 2 .340 and .338, Lagares career .290. So yeah, Pollock and his 110-ish games played is 100% a significant upgrade over Lagares or at least the Lagares we saw 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018.
OK..still don't see it as a significant upgrade, but maybe because I'm bullish on Lagares talent level...
Plus.. I'm super opposed to giving any offensive player more than $10M a year when Harper and Machado are out there...
It's been 14 years since we signed the best free agent.
1. Brodie has made clear they aren't going to be in on Harper so if that's your reasoning prepare to be very disappointed
2. 10 million a year is NOTHING in today's game. Brantley just got 16 million, McCutchen got 17.
Agreed that $10M a year is nothing! That's why I think they should throw 3 "nothings" together and go get Harper or Machado...
I think they are idiots if they don't.
I am very prepared to be disappointed...
"well, they would cost money"
Sounds like a freaking US manufacturing company employee thinking more about cost cutting than about growth and excellence!
Freaking terrible that the NEW YORK Mets continue to operate this way. They have $45M to spend before they get to luxury tax threshold... none of that should be left unspent..
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Pollock 2 years with a 3rd year monster team option and buyout. Works for both parties.
That would really be the cherry on top.
Nimmo
Pollock
Cano
Conforto
Ramos
Mcneil
Frazier/Alonso
(pitcher)
Rosario
I know it's been said Cano will be in the 3 hole, but with Mcneil's knack for hitting for average, I think I'd rather Mcneil at the 2 and then slide Pollock, Cano, Conforto & Ramos down one
Davis?
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Angels apparently offered the same deal we did but he wanted to be on the East Coast.
Davis?
Ramos.
Brodie apparently downplaying the need for another bat so sounds like they are out on Pollock. Ugh.
Well it's been suggested Brodie implied Ramos was the RH bat they needed and when asked about it mentioned Cespedes vs. looking for someone else.
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When RH bat for OF is broached again, Van Wagenen brought up Cespedes.
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Van Wagenen: We are going to be using our resources efficiently, but we also have to look at where our priorities are. Before this signing, RH middle of the order bat was real important to give us balance. Now that we have it, that may not be the No. 1 priority.
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In comment 14224410 moze1021 said:
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In comment 14224380 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
if you throw out everything Pollock has done before the past 2 seasons... 103 wRC+ in 2017, 110 in 2018... Juan Lagares career wRC+... 85. Pollock wOBA the past 2 .340 and .338, Lagares career .290. So yeah, Pollock and his 110-ish games played is 100% a significant upgrade over Lagares or at least the Lagares we saw 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018.
OK..still don't see it as a significant upgrade, but maybe because I'm bullish on Lagares talent level...
Plus.. I'm super opposed to giving any offensive player more than $10M a year when Harper and Machado are out there...
It's been 14 years since we signed the best free agent.
1. Brodie has made clear they aren't going to be in on Harper so if that's your reasoning prepare to be very disappointed
2. 10 million a year is NOTHING in today's game. Brantley just got 16 million, McCutchen got 17.
Agreed that $10M a year is nothing! That's why I think they should throw 3 "nothings" together and go get Harper or Machado...
I think they are idiots if they don't.
I am very prepared to be disappointed...
The Mets are all about disappointments.
There really is nobody of note. Neither FG or MLBTR has a single CF outside of Pollock in their top 50 FA's.
Why arent we in on Marwin?
Ramos.
Brodie apparently downplaying the need for another bat so sounds like they are out on Pollock. Ugh.
Honestly I don't think it's a terribly bad decision. I know you don't like Pillar and I admit he's a very very low upside option so he's not my top choice, but let's use him as a low end comparison from the marco standpoint since we know he's on the block:
Pillar (29 years old)
- costs $3m for 1 year
- steamer projects 2.0 fwar, 90 wRC (in 141 games)
- he probably only returns a non-top 10 prospect
- averaged 148 games last 2 years
Pollock (31 years old)
- costs $40-60m for 2-4 years
- steamer projects 3.1 fwar, 108 wRC (in 146 games)
- costs a 2nd round pick (our last 3 second rd picks are all in our top 8 prospects right now)
- averaged 112.5 games last 2 years
Pollock costs a lot more and the injury prone-ness is scary, even though I would agree the difference with the bat is bigger than the numbers make it appear. For that reason my preference would be to find a higher upside option like the guys we discussed yesterday - Margot, JBJ, etc - but on the financial side I actually do think there could be better uses of $40-60m in FA than Pollock.
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Ramos.
Brodie apparently downplaying the need for another bat so sounds like they are out on Pollock. Ugh.
Honestly I don't think it's a terribly bad decision. I know you don't like Pillar and I admit he's a very very low upside option so he's not my top choice, but let's use him as a low end comparison from the marco standpoint since we know he's on the block:
Pillar (29 years old)
- costs $3m for 1 year
- steamer projects 2.0 fwar, 90 wRC (in 141 games)
- he probably only returns a non-top 10 prospect
- averaged 148 games last 2 years
Pollock (31 years old)
- costs $40-60m for 2-4 years
- steamer projects 3.1 fwar, 108 wRC (in 146 games)
- costs a 2nd round pick (our last 3 second rd picks are all in our top 8 prospects right now)
- averaged 112.5 games last 2 years
Pollock costs a lot more and the injury prone-ness is scary, even though I would agree the difference with the bat is bigger than the numbers make it appear. For that reason my preference would be to find a higher upside option like the guys we discussed yesterday - Margot, JBJ, etc - but on the financial side I actually do think there could be better uses of $40-60m in FA than Pollock.
Pillar is projected at 5.3 million by MLBTR.
Among MLB OF's Pillar posted the WORST OBP in baseball and 4th worst wRC+. He's a black hole who will be paid Hamilton money, without his speed AND cost prospects. We have Lagares.
Hitting from the right side is not the priority. Preference now, but not priority. MoreO added behind the plate than expected,means a more defensive CFbecomes more likely. Or a RF...
That only goes so far: Depressingly and inexplicably, the Mets seem to be out on both Bryce Harper and Manny Machado despite both representing a quantum leap in talent; theres also no news connecting them to other high-end free agents who could help. This is still a big-market team playing coy with its checks for no reason other than not wanting to cut them. And while Ramos is a good choice, fellow free agent Grandal mightve been the better movebut as the more expensive one, he was never going to fly.
But Ramos at least represents a safer and smarter choice than splurging on Realmuto (especially if, given the rumors floating around during the Winter Meetings, it was going to cost Noah Syndergaard, which wouldve been senseless). And adding him shows that Van Wagenen is committed to aiming for contention by proactively making moves instead of hoping for it if everything breaks right. In what promises to be a rough-and-tumble NL East, that should be a sign of relief for long-suffering Mets fans.
Grade: B+
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Brodie Van Wagenen hinted that A.J. Pollock may not be realistic for the Mets anymore. He responded to a Pollock question by saying Wilson Ramos fills the team's need for a middle-of-the-order right-handed bat, and that the club is still hopeful Yoenis Cespedes can help as well.
I'm not saying they shouldn't spend money or look to upgrade further, but there are probably better uses of money than Pollock (who I like).
I also don't think it's totally illegitimate to not want to give out a big multi-year deal to an OF'er until seeing what happens with Cespedes. Chalking up 20% of the payroll the next couple years as a sunk cost isn't ideal unless there's insurance money coming back.
I'm not saying they shouldn't spend money or look to upgrade further, but there are probably better uses of money than Pollock (who I like).
I also don't think it's totally illegitimate to not want to give out a big multi-year deal to an OF'er until seeing what happens with Cespedes. Chalking up 20% of the payroll the next couple years as a sunk cost isn't ideal unless there's insurance money coming back.
Well insurance IS picking up 75% of his salary between the 60 day mark in the season and when he plays. So they ARE getting back 75% of at least 2 months of salary so to cry pauper is silly. Remember, they have already "said" they likely aren't adding another high end RP which means it's a money issue. You don't think the Mets would want a Robertson or Miller at 5 million? That's what's sad.
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he stays healthy. And that's kind of important.
I'm not saying they shouldn't spend money or look to upgrade further, but there are probably better uses of money than Pollock (who I like).
I also don't think it's totally illegitimate to not want to give out a big multi-year deal to an OF'er until seeing what happens with Cespedes. Chalking up 20% of the payroll the next couple years as a sunk cost isn't ideal unless there's insurance money coming back.
Well insurance IS picking up 75% of his salary between the 60 day mark in the season and when he plays. So they ARE getting back 75% of at least 2 months of salary so to cry pauper is silly. Remember, they have already "said" they likely aren't adding another high end RP which means it's a money issue. You don't think the Mets would want a Robertson or Miller at 5 million? That's what's sad.
No argument from me on the sad state of their finances. I'll be as outraged as anyone if they don't at least increase spending over last year a little bit.
Re: reliever spending 2 things - first BVW gave himself some wiggle room saying they "probably wouldn't" get another one and unless I missed a quote about that today, his previous one was when they were still thinking about Grandal + Pollock, so conceivably he hand't yet realized how little he'd spend at C.
But even if they are out on a high end reliever - I think it's conceivable that signing a middle reliever like Adam Warren as well as a starter like Gio Gonzalez to 1 or 2 year deals is a better use of money than Pollock. Or a more versatile player like Marwin. And no pick surrendered.
I agree - the only knock (or rather question?) is if he can play CF competently. If so I think he's by far the best hitting fit/value out there. The only drawback I could see is just on his end if he'd prefer to go somewhere he can start every day.
If the Mets can deal Lagares, the money would be very close and the Red Sox may not ask for much more than Plawecki or Dom Smith since they're paying the luxury tax and need to unload salary.
I'd also be in on Porcello ad Bogaerts, who would both obviously cost significantly more.
ML offers to vets
M Reynolds, G Parra, A Romine, H Pence, CarGo, N Aoki, J Parker, B MILLER, D Valencia, C Villanueva,
FAs Id go after
N Cruz, D Dietrich, J Harrison, N Walker and M Gonzalez (SIGN ONEOF THEM!!!), TULO,
FAs idkeep apulse on/make a lowball offer on
D Span if super cheap one year deal, Y Solarte, A Garcia, DJ LeMahieu (3b), Moose, D Pomeranz, F Liriano, M PEREZ!!
Find out if Twins are really sick of Buxton!! Tons of trades to be made, but Id fill the holes first build the foundation before you lay bricks.
yeah sadly the end of an era for some of these guys. CarGo, Carlos Gomez, Adam Jones, Pence etc. It's getting near the end of the line. CarGo is slightly younger.
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Brodie Van Wagenen hinted that A.J. Pollock may not be realistic for the Mets anymore. He responded to a Pollock question by saying Wilson Ramos fills the team's need for a middle-of-the-order right-handed bat, and that the club is still hopeful Yoenis Cespedes can help as well.
Cespedes is a lost cause. Dont expect him to make any contributions as a Met.
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Brodie Van Wagenen hinted that A.J. Pollock may not be realistic for the Mets anymore. He responded to a Pollock question by saying Wilson Ramos fills the team's need for a middle-of-the-order right-handed bat, and that the club is still hopeful Yoenis Cespedes can help as well.
I'm happy with the signing but its pretty sad they view this as filling the middle of the order with a big bat.
This team still needs more. Why not sign Gonzalez who makes a ton of sense and another big reliever- Miller/ Robertson?
Someone will sign him, hopefully not the Mets.
If the Mets can trade Lagares they should get a legit CFer and leave Nimmo and Conforto @ the corners and if Cespedes comes back, Nimmo becomes a super sub.
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Source: Mets have signed RHP Zach Lee to a minor league deal.
The Dodgers former first round pick had a 3.65 ERA in 145.2 innings between AA and AAA last season in Rays organization.
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When RH bat for OF is broached again, Van Wagenen brought up Cespedes.
What a fucking joke, relying on Cespedes do to ANYTHING this year. Just another justification for not going after Harper, Machado, etc.
The more things change, the more they stay the same...
Sigh...
As much as I hate that they will probably end up with lesser players than the guys mentioned above even if they don't break the bank, I do understand not wanting to impact the payroll down the line. Cano's $ was put on the credit card bill that's coming due in 2021-2023 and it's not going to be as easy to work around as many think - even if he's still playing halfway decent. Him and JDG alone those years are probably going to account for 1/3 of the total of this year's payroll. Plus Conforto, Thor, Nimmo, Diaz, Rosario, Matz arb years (and Familia). So the "nothing committed after 2021" is more than a little misleading.
I agree that he'd be a better option than spending more and giving up a prospect for Pillar.
No they don't.
They need another SP (not a shit bag like Vargas, but a legit #4 starter - not asking for an ace here and a good BP arm (preferably lefty) and some defensive role players.
I have said repeatedly I'd model the Mets after the SF Giants. They won 3 WS in 5 years without a "big bat".
I don't know they had a 30 HR hitter on any of those teams and no more than 2 players on any of the 3 WS teams had an OPS over .850.
They won with starting pitching, bullpen, and defense sprinkled in with clutch hitting.
The Mets need health, not a miracle to compete.
this Mets team is already better than 2015 if deGrom, Thor and Wheeler pitch like last year.
but they can't be done building.
I don't need $$$ FA acquisitions (though clearly I think both Machado and Harper would be good fits and one of them should absolutely be a Met, but we know that's not happening). Just continue to add smartly and don't force anything via trade.
Or Maybe Frazier is on the way out?
Sign him, and then trade him at the deadline for another Kilome.
Can be the Mets own version of Kelly Johnson.
Seriously, I think Droobs is fine, as a deep bench guy, but if he's starting significant games the Mets are likely picking top 10 in 2020.
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are in on Asdrubal Cabrera. Maybe Brodie really does want to trade McNeil.
Sign him, and then trade him at the deadline for another Kilome.
Can be the Mets own version of Kelly Johnson.
Seriously, I think Droobs is fine, as a deep bench guy, but if he's starting significant games the Mets are likely picking top 10 in 2020.
He actually had a nice year at the plate last year.
I just don't really see him being a fit here given the personnel we have on hand unless his market is completely non-existent.
Even as a bench player though, do you think he'll be happy sitting on the bench if McNeil and Rosario go into slumps? He played well enough last year that I'd imagine he thinks of himself as worthy of starting. We've already seen him complain and grumble in prior seasons when he doesn't get his way.
Of course, that's bolstered by a strong first half and a poor performance after being traded to Philly.
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are in on Asdrubal Cabrera. Maybe Brodie really does want to trade McNeil.
Or Maybe Frazier is on the way out?
Maybe. Would Cabrera command a similar salary to Frazier?
IMO, they are comparable players for next year, so if we can get an asset back for Frazier, and maybe even same a little money by bringing back Cabrera, I'd be ok with it.
A little extra money for a better OF or BP option would be welcomed.
As much as I hate that they will probably end up with lesser players than the guys mentioned above even if they don't break the bank, I do understand not wanting to impact the payroll down the line. Cano's $ was put on the credit card bill that's coming due in 2021-2023 and it's not going to be as easy to work around as many think - even if he's still playing halfway decent. Him and JDG alone those years are probably going to account for 1/3 of the total of this year's payroll. Plus Conforto, Thor, Nimmo, Diaz, Rosario, Matz arb years (and Familia). So the "nothing committed after 2021" is more than a little misleading.
Pathetic. James Dolan gets ripped to shreds but the Knicks are going to have a higher or comparable payroll to the Mets in the coming seasons. And they have a 12 man roster with a salary cap. The Knicks just cut Ron Baker and his guaranteed 5 million salary because he was the worst player on the team. Finances played zero part in the decision. The Mets would never make a similar move in a million years....
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not a shock but I'd hope they are open to a Gio Gonzalez or Miller/Robertson/Soria if they end up under 3 years.
As much as I hate that they will probably end up with lesser players than the guys mentioned above even if they don't break the bank, I do understand not wanting to impact the payroll down the line. Cano's $ was put on the credit card bill that's coming due in 2021-2023 and it's not going to be as easy to work around as many think - even if he's still playing halfway decent. Him and JDG alone those years are probably going to account for 1/3 of the total of this year's payroll. Plus Conforto, Thor, Nimmo, Diaz, Rosario, Matz arb years (and Familia). So the "nothing committed after 2021" is more than a little misleading.
Pathetic. James Dolan gets ripped to shreds but the Knicks are going to have a higher or comparable payroll to the Mets in the coming seasons. And they have a 12 man roster with a salary cap. The Knicks just cut Ron Baker and his guaranteed 5 million salary because he was the worst player on the team. Finances played zero part in the decision. The Mets would never make a similar move in a million years....
As NY sports fans, let's not let Dolan be the bar we set. He's a dirtbag and a terrible owner. The Wilpon's are just as bad owners, but at least they stay off Page 6....
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In comment 14225175 Eric on Li said:
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not a shock but I'd hope they are open to a Gio Gonzalez or Miller/Robertson/Soria if they end up under 3 years.
As much as I hate that they will probably end up with lesser players than the guys mentioned above even if they don't break the bank, I do understand not wanting to impact the payroll down the line. Cano's $ was put on the credit card bill that's coming due in 2021-2023 and it's not going to be as easy to work around as many think - even if he's still playing halfway decent. Him and JDG alone those years are probably going to account for 1/3 of the total of this year's payroll. Plus Conforto, Thor, Nimmo, Diaz, Rosario, Matz arb years (and Familia). So the "nothing committed after 2021" is more than a little misleading.
Pathetic. James Dolan gets ripped to shreds but the Knicks are going to have a higher or comparable payroll to the Mets in the coming seasons. And they have a 12 man roster with a salary cap. The Knicks just cut Ron Baker and his guaranteed 5 million salary because he was the worst player on the team. Finances played zero part in the decision. The Mets would never make a similar move in a million years....
As NY sports fans, let's not let Dolan be the bar we set. He's a dirtbag and a terrible owner. The Wilpon's are just as bad owners, but at least they stay off Page 6....
I want my owners to spend to win and hire the right people. Dolan does one of those things. The Wilpons do neither. I'd take Dolan over the Wilpons as Mets owner 10/10.
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not a shock but I'd hope they are open to a Gio Gonzalez or Miller/Robertson/Soria if they end up under 3 years.
As much as I hate that they will probably end up with lesser players than the guys mentioned above even if they don't break the bank, I do understand not wanting to impact the payroll down the line. Cano's $ was put on the credit card bill that's coming due in 2021-2023 and it's not going to be as easy to work around as many think - even if he's still playing halfway decent. Him and JDG alone those years are probably going to account for 1/3 of the total of this year's payroll. Plus Conforto, Thor, Nimmo, Diaz, Rosario, Matz arb years (and Familia). So the "nothing committed after 2021" is more than a little misleading.
Pathetic. James Dolan gets ripped to shreds but the Knicks are going to have a higher or comparable payroll to the Mets in the coming seasons. And they have a 12 man roster with a salary cap. The Knicks just cut Ron Baker and his guaranteed 5 million salary because he was the worst player on the team. Finances played zero part in the decision. The Mets would never make a similar move in a million years....
On that I totally agree - the Wilpons are a farce. MLB should have taken the team away from them years ago when they had the chance. My post was more analyzing from the bvw point of view where he has to make good decisions within his budget.
The Mets need health, not a miracle to compete.
this Mets team is already better than 2015 if deGrom, Thor and Wheeler pitch like last year.
but they can't be done building.
I don't need $$$ FA acquisitions (though clearly I think both Machado and Harper would be good fits and one of them should absolutely be a Met, but we know that's not happening). Just continue to add smartly and don't force anything via trade.
I agree with this. Right now I don't think it's unfair to say they are on par with the Nats, both ahead of the rest of the division. But they need to keep making moves because everyone else is going to do keep trying to improve too.
I also agree that this is already the best team they're entering a season with since 2016, and I actually think the construction is a little bit better (more athletic, more polished hitting approach, better on D) if they can avoid major injuries - which that team couldn't do. That's where continuing to add players can only help though. Especially on the pitching staff since you can never have too much depth.
I understand the Mets are too cheap and shortsighted to sign them...
But I completely disagree that they wouldnt want to be Mets... That's such a cop out to say that..
For one it's NY, two money talks.. and 3... They have Noah and Jake..who the heck wouldnt want to play on this team with those badasses....
For one glorious off-season 04-05 the Mets weren't the younger brothers of NY..they were the big boys...
It's time for that to happen again! Legit makes me depressed that ownership can't do it..
I want my owners to spend to win and hire the right people. Dolan does one of those things. The Wilpons do neither. I'd take Dolan over the Wilpons as Mets owner 10/10.
Switching team would be PERFECT for them...
Dolan would spend over his mistakes with no real cap...if you give a smart GM the flexibility to make big moves winning in MLB is easy...
The Wilpons would LOVE the excuse of a cap and would have decade long patience for a rebuild..
How fast things can change in the sports world....
Just curious because that dude, if this is indeed him, probably took 10 years off my brother in law's life.
Just curious because that dude, if this is indeed him, probably took 10 years off my brother in law's life.
Yep - same guy.
And given that JDG, Thor and Wheeler are all in their prime, it makes sense
I think
BVW realizes he has to win right away if he wants the Wilsons to spend. The only time Sandy got a big budget was after 2015 and his downfall was that he made s series of horrendous moves with that big budget
I think BVG is looking to prod the Wilpons to spend with some instant success
I so agree with this. I feel like the most crucial holes have been filled that we had to be aggressive with. I still want an OF but if Cespedes comes back for the second half how big of a need is it really? I'd let the market come to us now. Don't box yourself out and see if you can come away with a few steals. Also, you never know what could happen with Harper... things change daily.
And those rankings include Wright. Regardless of whether anyone thinks that's the right or wrong thing to do, at minimum it inflates the rankings since the insurance money came back.
It spurred a deep rebuild that was either successful or not depending on who you ask. It seems to be over now or in the least things seemed to have recovered somewhat. The Wilpons spent big time before the Madoff scandal. Im guessing they spend again in the future. I think our payroll finishes within 30-40 million of the luxury tax, which all teams including the mighty Yankees are now striving to stay under.
He also noted dArnauds ability and eagerness to play other positions, and how it gives credence to the idea of keeping and carrying all three catchers.
I think that Travis versatility to be able to play first, his willingness to explore third base and left field gives us [confidence] that we could carry three catchers given the fact that [dArnaud] could be an offensive-minded player that can fit around the diamond, he said. As were looking to build 25 guys, he can be a really interesting guy for us.
It spurred a deep rebuild that was either successful or not depending on who you ask. It seems to be over now or in the least things seemed to have recovered somewhat. The Wilpons spent big time before the Madoff scandal. Im guessing they spend again in the future. I think our payroll finishes within 30-40 million of the luxury tax, which all teams including the mighty Yankees are now striving to stay under.
I know you said you're being ridiculous, but that's not even an anology. The Mets should never have been relying on funds from Sterling Enterprises to set payroll of the Mets.
Period.
they should have been forced to sell the franchise. period.
Frank McCourt had done far less to embarrass baseball or wane confidence in his ability in LA and Selig forced him to sell after having MLB take over the team.
Only because of Selig's friendship with Wilpon, does Wilpon still own the Mets.
the aftermath or events since is subjective so I won't get into that, but your analogy isn't ridiculous, it's not really an analogy - one a natural disaster resulting in deaths, the other probably (or at least possible) criminal activity leading to gross mismanagement.
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Heard Chris Flexen has lost about 30 pounds after knee surgery last August, hopes to compete for a job with the Mets in spring training.
I read he was great in the winter league and I kind of feel like he owes the Mets.
I'd bring him back on a small-ish $$ deal.
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Heard Chris Flexen has lost about 30 pounds after knee surgery last August, hopes to compete for a job with the Mets in spring training.
Good for him losing the weight, but how does a 24 year old pro athlete even have 30 lbs to lose like that. I mean cmon that is your one job , to stay in shape.
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Heard Chris Flexen has lost about 30 pounds after knee surgery last August, hopes to compete for a job with the Mets in spring training.
Good for him losing the weight, but how does a 24 year old pro athlete even have 30 lbs to lose like that. I mean cmon that is your one job , to stay in shape.
There's a lot of fat-ish pitchers. It's not like they're swimmers or marathon runners.
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and half their front office died in the avalanche, the Dodgers payroll would probably take a hit too for a few years. Im being ridiculous of course but we know the Madoff stuff happened. Everyone knows about it. It sucked.
It spurred a deep rebuild that was either successful or not depending on who you ask. It seems to be over now or in the least things seemed to have recovered somewhat. The Wilpons spent big time before the Madoff scandal. Im guessing they spend again in the future. I think our payroll finishes within 30-40 million of the luxury tax, which all teams including the mighty Yankees are now striving to stay under.
I know you said you're being ridiculous, but that's not even an anology. The Mets should never have been relying on funds from Sterling Enterprises to set payroll of the Mets.
Period.
they should have been forced to sell the franchise. period.
Frank McCourt had done far less to embarrass baseball or wane confidence in his ability in LA and Selig forced him to sell after having MLB take over the team.
Only because of Selig's friendship with Wilpon, does Wilpon still own the Mets.
the aftermath or events since is subjective so I won't get into that, but your analogy isn't ridiculous, it's not really an analogy - one a natural disaster resulting in deaths, the other probably (or at least possible) criminal activity leading to gross mismanagement.
JFC. Its an analogy, because we, as fans dealt with a catastrophe that was unforeseen that effected the franchise for years. It now seems to be recovering. Im not literally comparing earthquakes and deaths to Madoff. Lighten up Suzan.
I read he was great in the winter league and I kind of feel like he owes the Mets.
I'd bring him back on a small-ish $$ deal.
Considering they dropped him before they had to (there was room on the 40) I doubt it.
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In comment 14225603 ZGiants98 said:
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and half their front office died in the avalanche, the Dodgers payroll would probably take a hit too for a few years. Im being ridiculous of course but we know the Madoff stuff happened. Everyone knows about it. It sucked.
It spurred a deep rebuild that was either successful or not depending on who you ask. It seems to be over now or in the least things seemed to have recovered somewhat. The Wilpons spent big time before the Madoff scandal. Im guessing they spend again in the future. I think our payroll finishes within 30-40 million of the luxury tax, which all teams including the mighty Yankees are now striving to stay under.
I know you said you're being ridiculous, but that's not even an anology. The Mets should never have been relying on funds from Sterling Enterprises to set payroll of the Mets.
Period.
they should have been forced to sell the franchise. period.
Frank McCourt had done far less to embarrass baseball or wane confidence in his ability in LA and Selig forced him to sell after having MLB take over the team.
Only because of Selig's friendship with Wilpon, does Wilpon still own the Mets.
the aftermath or events since is subjective so I won't get into that, but your analogy isn't ridiculous, it's not really an analogy - one a natural disaster resulting in deaths, the other probably (or at least possible) criminal activity leading to gross mismanagement.
JFC. Its an analogy, because we, as fans dealt with a catastrophe that was unforeseen that effected the franchise for years. It now seems to be recovering. Im not literally comparing earthquakes and deaths to Madoff. Lighten up Suzan.
Suzan? WTF does that mean? I made a simple comment to your ridiculous statement and you I think try and insult me.
And you wonder why you are always ridiculed and thought to be a massive asshole.
Now you know.
They are better than Drew Gagnon. That being said, with how injury prone the Mets starting pitchers can be I thought they should have been in on someone like Jesse Chavez in Free Agency. Thought Texas got a good deal with him.
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think Flexen has a shot as a middle reliever but extremely flat FB and meh secondaries. He and Oswalt are very, very meh along with Zach Lee.
They are better than Drew Gagnon. That being said, with how injury prone the Mets starting pitchers can be I thought they should have been in on someone like Jesse Chavez in Free Agency. Thought Texas got a good deal with him.
Gagnon sucks too but the difference is probably marginal.
2018
Gagnon AAA 4.46 FIP 9.53 K/9
Oswalt AAA 5.37 FIP 8.94 K/9, MLB 5.70 FIP 6.26 K/9
Flexen AAA 4.62 FIP 7.63 K/9
If there is a difference it's marginal
have a good day. or GFY.
have a good day. or GFY.
Haha. Its an expression used in old movies from the 50s but considering the way your acting, it most certainly should mean that youre a whiny little bitch. Happy holidays to you too fucker. :)
If they previously had 2 huge train station hubs bc it's 1 of the most populous cities in the world (a top 5 payroll), when they rebuilt with the disaster relief insurance money they only rebuilt Penn station (a bottom half payroll) and said they'd only spend more to fix Grand central station only if customers buy enough tickets - while also raising ticket prices. The wilpons are like an insurance company 6 years after hurricane sandy still refusing to make full payment, despite having also received disaster relief funds from the government.
rarely has a 26 year old all-world free agent become available at a time when the team had such an obvious hole that either or both would fill.
But because people say "Machado or Harper were never realistic for the Mets...."
means absolutely things have not changed and the Mets are still operating with the impact of Madoff or even more damning they have a philosophy that they simply don't see value in investing in super star talent. It is enough years later that they have no Madoff excuse to use unless...which was my point...they were counting on investment returns from Madoff that were obviously unrealistic to fund the Mets payroll.
That difference in spending may not seem huge but it's passing on Miller or Robertson ($10m aav) for a mediocre middle reliever like Blevins or Salas ($3-5m). Think about the difference in prospect quality those 2 types of players return at the deadline and which ones are always in extremely high demand for contenders. Why hard cap ourselves right now when those guys are there for the taking? The rest of the moves out there I can understand bypassing due to risks for cheaper alternatives (like Pollock) bc it's a much bigger $ difference.
But moving forward, the !ets are not their focus or moneymaker. But ironic, the franchise is literally the hub that sits in the middle of it allso the Wilpons NEED a winner. The need a proud franchise. Fred would obviously like one last title. Next few years are really, really important to the Wilpon enterprise.
But moving forward, the !ets are not their focus or moneymaker. But ironic, the franchise is literally the hub that sits in the middle of it allso the Wilpons NEED a winner. The need a proud franchise. Fred would obviously like one last title. Next few years are really, really important to the Wilpon enterprise.
So we're in agreement - sign Andrew Miller or David Robertson bc the next few years are very important!
The ranking thing is similar to ranking players by position. You can say a guy is the 20th rated defensive SS, for example, but who cares if every one of the top 20 are positive defenders??
Maybe another bad analogy but Im sure you get my point.
No thanks. Ill take adding 5-7 quality players at position of needs just as easily.
The ranking thing is similar to ranking players by position. You can say a guy is the 20th rated defensive SS, for example, but who cares if every one of the top 20 are positive defenders??
Maybe another bad analogy but Im sure you get my point.
The Mets spent 13 million less than the Astros (#9 in spending) and 23 million less than the Angels (#7) you don't think that's a SIGNIFICANT difference in talent? #16 team in spending spend 10 million less than the Mets (Texas) so the Mets were closer to BELOW average in spending than even top 10. 23 million on top of whatever they still have left is a Pollock AND a Robertson type. That's a huge, huge difference.
Nailed it. Can't toss around "around 170" as if that's the case. Opening day payroll 2018 150 million. 20 million more than that is an all-star or 2 Familia/Ramos's.. a HUGE roster difference.
Beat writers who do this should be called out. It lets the Wilpons off the hook. Fans need to see through this and be relentless on social media calling Mets PR out when they try to inflate payroll.
Not being a dick but I thought you claimed 2 weeks ago the Wright situation was done? If that's the case they would know they had X to spend. Can't have it both ways. Either Wright and the Mets are close to a buyout and have more to spend or that information was false.
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Eric, Im not really a fan of rankings. You could easily have ten teams spending around the luxury tax so does that make a team just under that cheap? When you have a few teams spending as little as 50 million annually, that spectrum is pretty large. Give me a payroll around 170 million and tell me you have flexibility for a deadline deal and Ill be pretty happy.
The ranking thing is similar to ranking players by position. You can say a guy is the 20th rated defensive SS, for example, but who cares if every one of the top 20 are positive defenders??
Maybe another bad analogy but Im sure you get my point.
The Mets spent 13 million less than the Astros (#9 in spending) and 23 million less than the Angels (#7) you don't think that's a SIGNIFICANT difference in talent? #16 team in spending spend 10 million less than the Mets (Texas) so the Mets were closer to BELOW average in spending than even top 10. 23 million on top of whatever they still have left is a Pollock AND a Robertson type. That's a huge, huge difference.
I think last year was a bit of a transition year that was riding on replacing guys like Duda, Walker, and Granderson with younger guys like Rosario, Nimmo, and Smith. I think they brought in some vets to help see that through but almost everything went wrong and the youth, except Nimmo struggled. I dont think last year was a go for it year but if you listen to the Wilpons, Sandy had more money to spend at his disposal. Ive also heard Sandy always worked with a rather large buffer that may have been different than other GMs may have operated.
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The payroll stands at 150 million today and BVW has said unequivocally, we are not done. I expect a few more moves and it to be in the 160-170 range at minimum which is ok by me.
Not being a dick but I thought you claimed 2 weeks ago the Wright situation was done? If that's the case they would know they had X to spend. Can't have it both ways. Either Wright and the Mets are close to a buyout and have more to spend or that information was false.
I never claimed that at all. I said, a poster I couldnt confirm was legit or not, was claiming it was.
Beat writers who do this should be called out. It lets the Wilpons off the hook. Fans need to see through this and be relentless on social media calling Mets PR out when they try to inflate payroll.
Yes and no. They may be preparing to do a buyout now and pay a portion of it which would effect things this year. We dont know yet though.
"Although he has not thrown an MLB pitch in 2018, Zach Lee threw 361 pitches that were tracked by the PITCHf/x system between 2014 and 2017, including pitches thrown in the MLB Regular Season and Spring Training. In 2017, he relied primarily on his Fourseam Fastball (91mph) and Cutter (87mph), also mixing in a Change (83mph). He also rarely threw a Curve (75mph)."
If the 2 leaders are within 5% of each other, or the leader has less than 30% there will be a run-off between the top 2. If a run-off results in a tie the tiebreaker will be vote total in the previous poll, we will continue to "go back" in the polls until there is a clear leader.
*Jeff McNeil is ineligible
*Chris Flexen is ineligible
*Drew Smith is ineligible
*Tyler Bashlor is ineligible
1) Andres Gimenez (SS) AA 19/37 votes- 51%
2) Peter Alonso (1B) AAA 24/36 votes- 67%
3) Ronny Mauricio (SS) Kingsport 12/33-36%
4) Mark Vientos (3b) Kingsport 16/31-52%
5) David Peterson (LHP) A+ 21/31- 68%
6) Franklyn Kilome (RHP) AA 20/33-61%
7) Thomas Szapucki (LHP) A 18/32-56%
8) Shervyen Newton (SS) Kingsport 12/30-40%, Run-off with Anthony Kay 17/33-52%
9) Anthony Kay (LHP) AA 18/26-69%
10) Simeon Woods-Richardson (RHP) Kingsport 12/30-40%
11) Luis Santana (2B) 15/26-58%
12) Will Toffey (3B) 10/29-34%, run-off with Cecchini 15/27-56%
13) Gavin Cecchini (2b) 14/26-46%
14) Francisco Alvarez (C) 9/26-35%
15) Dez Lindsay (OF) 7/18-39%
16) Tony Dibrell (RHP) 9/23-39%
17) Jordan Humphreys (RHP) 7/21-33%, Run-off with Nido 18/24-75%
18) Ross Adolph (OF) 6/25-24%, run-off with Nido 18/25-72%
19) Adam Hill (RHP) 4/26-15%, Run-off with Nido/Crismatt 11/26-58%
20) Junior Santos (RHP) 6/28-21%, Run-off with Nido 11/20-55%
21) Tomas Nido (C) 10/23-43%
22) Luis Guillorme (SS) 9/24-38%
23) Adrian Hernandez 6/26-23%, run-off with Wahl/Cortes 8/15-53%
24) Carlos Cortes (2b) 8/21-38%
25) Steven Villines (RHP) 4/16 25%, Run-off with Thompson/Wahl 9/23-39%
26) David Thompson (3b) 8/23-35%
27) Ali Sanchez (C) 9/17-53%
28) Bobby Wahl (RHP) 11/25-44%
29) Eric Hanhold (RHP) 7/21-33%, run-off 7/20-35%
30) Luis Carpio (IF) 4/18-22%, runoff with Uriarte 9/14-64%
31) Stanley Consuegra (OF) 4/20-20%, runoff with Uriarte/Valdez 6/17-35%, advances due to more votes in previous poll
32) Juan Uriarte (C) 4/19-21%
33) Freddy Valdez (OF) 7/17-41%
34) Daniel Zamora (LHP) 3/17-18%, run-off with Montes De Oca 10/12-83%
35) Jaylen Palmer (??) 3/12-25%, run-off with Montes de Oca/Vilera 9/16-56%
36) Ryley Gilliam (RHP) 5/22-23%, run-off with Manea 8/16-50%, advances due to more votes in previous poll
37) Matt Winaker (OF) 4/22-18
38) Kyle Dowdy (RHP) 6/20-30%, run-off with Vilera 9/12-75%
This should be a no-brainer pursuit.
I would set a limit on the value, I don't suggest becoming Tom Hicks and the 2001 Rangers being absurd with Arod, but the pursuit should absolutely happen.
So of course there are other ways to win, but settling for Cano (or 5 - 7 bodies) instead of Machado (and others) is settling and half-assing things as a franchise. It's Jason Bay over Matt Holliday times 5.
accept it since we have no choice as fans (unless you're arc and want to jump ship) but at least acknowledge it and don't sugar coat it.
Since they werent. I begged for Machado AND Harper. Two players ;)
Just bodies.
Got it.
Give me:
~10m for another multi-year back end reliever (I'd prefer Miller but Robertson or Soria work)
~$8-12m for a 1 year SP (I'd prefer Gio but Sanchez or Milley could work)
~$3m+ incentives for Jon Jay (what he made last year, Gomez is a cheaper option I'd be ok with too)
~Trade Dom Smith for a similar aged "early bust" P or CF, with options, who can provide depth at a position of need
That's under the $170m before even counting the $15m-20m in insurance money they are likely to receive. This team, with those players added, can compete with the Nats even if Harper comes back.
Since they werent. I begged for Machado AND Harper. Two players ;)
I know the Mets aren't the Yankees and I don't envy the Yankees (or hate them) but my father is a diehard Yankees fan and before the 2008/2009 off-season my father and I were talking hot stove and he said the Yankees will sign both CC Sabathia and Mark Teixeira. I said BS. they'll sign one, but not both.
He said they have a need for both, it's just $$, so that's what they'll do.
What did they do? Not just CC and Tex, but they added in AJ Burnett for good measure.
and then won a World Series.
I agree with you the Mets SHOULD have been in on both.
I'd have been fine with one.
Neither is 100% because of $$$.
Which would you rather have?
A: Machado, Kimbrel, Familia (and keep Kelenic and Dunn)
B: Cano, Diaz, Familia (and lose Kelenic and Dunn)
If you answer A you are a massive homer idiot.
that's the difference between not spending and "adding bodies".
Even if you still prefer Diaz to Kimbrel because you think based on one season he's better than Kimbrel and he's obviously younger. Then you still HAVE to prefer to add Machado and then can also trade Kelenic and Dunn for Diaz.
Some people cannot separate the Diaz and Cano transactions and they are absolutely separate transactions (or should be thought of that way by fans).
is obviously sarcasm....calling out one person.
"Luis Carpio, 2B/SS, Mets' No. 17
Carpio's .219 average was the fifth worst among qualified hitters in the Class A Advanced Florida State League last season. He did, however, hit a career-high 12 homers and 21 doubles in the pitcher-friendly league, and there are quite a few signs that the 21-year-old is in store for more success moving forward. Specifically, Carpio had a surprisingly low .242 batting average on balls in play last season even though 52.2 percent of his contact was either a fly ball or line drive. He also struck out a reasonable 18.4 percent clip, had an equally reasonable 9.4 percent swinging-strike rate and walked 9.3 percent of the time."
This the stuff that drives me nuts. What does that have to do with what I said at all. At worst, its one of the top setup men but looking at 2018, he was better than Miller and Robertson based on fWAR. You could certainly make a case.
Which would you rather have?
A: Machado, Kimbrel, Familia (and keep Kelenic and Dunn)
B: Cano, Diaz, Familia (and lose Kelenic and Dunn)
If you answer A you are a massive homer idiot.
that's the difference between not spending and "adding bodies".
Even if you still prefer Diaz to Kimbrel because you think based on one season he's better than Kimbrel and he's obviously younger. Then you still HAVE to prefer to add Machado and then can also trade Kelenic and Dunn for Diaz.
Some people cannot separate the Diaz and Cano transactions and they are absolutely separate transactions (or should be thought of that way by fans).
What kind of garbage hypothetical is that? So we are going to spend 300 million on Machado, 100 million on Kimbel and still sign Familia? Are you not factoring the Ramos signing and future moves in liu of those big signing? Also you said if I answer A I am an idiot and Im prerty sure thats the opposite of what you meant? Are you off and drinking today? Cheers buddy!
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had Familia 3rd best RP, FG's has him 4th, SB nation had him 5th, MLB.com 3rd
This the stuff that drives me nuts. What does that have to do with what I said at all. At worst, its one of the top setup men but looking at 2018, he was better than Miller and Robertson based on fWAR. You could certainly make a case.
Because this is a routine pattern with you so you get called out. Instead of just saying one of the better RP's available you insist on going to
" arguably the best setup man on the market who can also close, " when really nobody I can see has made that argument and barring a shocker the salaries will represent that. If Familia gets the most money outside of Kimbrel I will say "ZGiants had a point". I'd be beyond shocked.
It's a loser mentality to not pursue Machado.
Add Ramos to the list.
Who would you prefer (and I'll simplify):
A: Machado, Familia, Ramos
B: Cano, Familia, Ramos
Cute Mr. fWAR... why was Ottavino omitted? And yeah the contracts generally represent the value of the player. You believe Familia will get more than the other names? Wanna place a wager Familia doesn't get the second best deal (Kimbrel obviously #1).
Pj was claiming Familia was just a body. Thats a bunch of bullshit.
It's a loser mentality to not pursue Machado.
Add Ramos to the list.
Who would you prefer (and I'll simplify):
A: Machado, Familia, Ramos
B: Cano, Familia, Ramos
The bold is the only reason I commented. Anyone else I would have ignored it.
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And me saying arguably the best and pointing out he might have been better than Robertson and Miller somehow makes you feel the need to jump in and tear apart the whole point and argument. Got it.
Cute Mr. fWAR... why was Ottavino omitted? And yeah the contracts generally represent the value of the player. You believe Familia will get more than the other names? Wanna place a wager Familia doesn't get the second best deal (Kimbrel obviously #1).
Wait werrent we talking about arguably setup men. Didnt Ottavino take over closing duties last year? Also, he had less of a track record at that level than Familia so again.... arguably... And why do you keep bringing up Kimbrell?? We were talking about setup men. Is Kimbrell a setup man?
McNeil, Plawecki, TDA, Rajai Davis, Dom Smith... horrendous. Gotta add some depth
That is what is bullshit. That is spin to say the Mets don't want to pay for the value of the better free agents.
There is ZERO reason the Mets shouldn't have Machado and Familia and Ramos.
As soon as you start spinning it to say you prefer what they did (so far) to what they should do, is when you move from objective fan to blind homer.
Uh... not really. Im saying they all count but you can certainly make a case for Familia so what is the point of railroading the discussion?
The hilarious thing is you do the same thing the opposite way. You routinely use words like 100% not happening, ect. when you could say not likely .
Whatever.
Which would you rather have?
A: Machado, Kimbrel, Familia (and keep Kelenic and Dunn)
B: Cano, Diaz, Familia (and lose Kelenic and Dunn)
If you answer A you are a massive homer idiot.
that's the difference between not spending and "adding bodies".
Even if you still prefer Diaz to Kimbrel because you think based on one season he's better than Kimbrel and he's obviously younger. Then you still HAVE to prefer to add Machado and then can also trade Kelenic and Dunn for Diaz.
Some people cannot separate the Diaz and Cano transactions and they are absolutely separate transactions (or should be thought of that way by fans).
Its literally Kimbrel for all those years or familia and Ramos. Dollar wise. Without the LT commit. And keeping a 2nd and intl slot money. If Im answering honestly, I take b in that scenario.
Well I guess I misunderstood then. Why bring him up or his potential contract at all then?
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man, I brought up Kimbrel to say obviously he's not part of the discussion. I've made that clear.
Well I guess I misunderstood then. Why bring him up or his potential contract at all then?
Because he's the consensus #1 RP and will 100% be closing so the rankings all have HIM #1 but that's not relevant to Familia...
False. I wanted JD Martinez last year and didnt think we were a playoff team unless everything went perfectly. If we signed Harper or Machado of course I would like it. No chance Id have us at 100 wins or anything close to it, especially in liu of other moves it could potentially be a net neutral.
Lol. When was this? 5 years ago? Please. Lets not play this game Mr. Nimmo will NEVER be more than a 4th OF for years guy.
I assume none of the above is argued. Bottom line is Mets needed to fix a terrible pen. Can anyone say they have a problem with the 8th and 9th inning answers in the Mets pen for this upcoming season? I assume we can all agree on this answer - and how often can allof us here agree on anything?
HAAAAAAA
I cant think if anyone on here who had the over on 12/19 being the first Z v D argument
Honest question. Are there five teams in mLB who have a better 1/2 combination for the next three years? Our problem has always been question marks at 1/2 and counting on too many question marks to fill slots 2-4 as of today, Gis 4th in the pen. And can easily be surpassed by several arms. Easily.
Lefty, yeah we need one. But if I am being honest, I would absolutely have zero problem if we add another arm and ride out a cheap Blevins arm for the year.
7th inning, Freeman coming up with tying run on 2nd with two out. I personally prefer Familia being called in to get him out than 95% of lefties just because hes a lefty. Im def old school there.
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pen is still mediocre. The only lefty throws 85 and is full unproven and Gsellman is really oddly overrated by Mets fans given his 2016. EVERYONE said they needed to essentially overhaul the pen. 2 arms help but it's still below average.. as of last week everyone was still all about Andrew Miller, Mets bail and "meh the pen is fixed?" and as I said the bench is truly awful and that's with Juan Lagares currently the starting CF...
Honest question. Are there five teams in mLB who have a better 1/2 combination for the next three years? Our problem has always been question marks at 1/2 and counting on too many question marks to fill slots 2-4 as of today, Gis 4th in the pen. And can easily be surpassed by several arms. Easily.
Lefty, yeah we need one. But if I am being honest, I would absolutely have zero problem if we add another arm and ride out a cheap Blevins arm for the year.
7th inning, Freeman coming up with tying run on 2nd with two out. I personally prefer Familia being called in to get him out than 95% of lefties just because hes a lefty. Im def old school there.
Shecky.. Blevins is done. So no that's not an acceptable option. He 35 years old and posted a 4.96 FIP. He didn't even get lefties out this year (.786 OPS against) no contender goes into 2019 with Zamora/Blevins.
This season,he is AT BESt 4 in the pen. Could easily fall to 5 or 6. Thats how Id measure the progress.
It's probably because you are intentionally obtuse in an effort to be a unrepentant fanboy.
I never claimed Familia is "just a body" I have said repeatedly I love the signing. It's your approach I took issue with. You are justifing a shitty approach by the Mets.
Compare him to the typical bottom of the pen, loogy. If thats the biggest hole on the roster, yeah Im ok with it. I know Im in the minority, not arguing its a good option. But Id focus everywhere else first
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Rather than join me in agreement that PJs comment about the players we acquired as being just bodies ( the far more ridiculous statement) Dan wants to call join him on the attack because I said Familia is arguably the best setup man which isnt ridiculous at all. I dont mind being called out, but at least be fair otherwise it just seems like its trying to pick on somebody.
It's probably because you are intentionally obtuse in an effort to be a unrepentant fanboy.
I never claimed Familia is "just a body" I have said repeatedly I love the signing. It's your approach I took issue with. You are justifing a shitty approach by the Mets.
Ive suggested many different approaches to this offseason including going after Harper and Machado fuck you very much.
LOL
Love ya Dan, but Id prefer some full disclosure from you on his steamer projection
Team can actually follow through on their talk and use their high ,everage arms in high leverage situations, regardless of inning lol
Neither do I. But I trust Familia. Dont you?
Lefty linky - ( New Window )
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projects Blevins to post a 4.59 FIP. Even Zamora who looked decent.. that's 9 innings with a mid 80's FB. Maybe he's successful but no Blevins/Zamora would likely mean 2 months into the season dealing prospects for some old LOOGY.
LOL
Love ya Dan, but Id prefer some full disclosure from you on his steamer projection
What do you mean? Here is Blevins.. if you prefer "depth charts" they project a 4.59 FIP. Based on what would anyone but optimistic about Jerry Blevins in 2019? Did you see 2018 as a fluke? Quite the opposite.. .263 BABIP. He was even worse than his ERA
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In comment 14226336 ZGiants98 said:
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Rather than join me in agreement that PJs comment about the players we acquired as being just bodies ( the far more ridiculous statement) Dan wants to call join him on the attack because I said Familia is arguably the best setup man which isnt ridiculous at all. I dont mind being called out, but at least be fair otherwise it just seems like its trying to pick on somebody.
It's probably because you are intentionally obtuse in an effort to be a unrepentant fanboy.
I never claimed Familia is "just a body" I have said repeatedly I love the signing. It's your approach I took issue with. You are justifing a shitty approach by the Mets.
Ive suggested many different approaches to this offseason including going after Harper and Machado fuck you very much.
Sure you did, it's right here in this thread. This is what I responded to.
Point is you think like a loser and then feel obligated to defend your loser position.
And then you add in shit no one else suggested.
No one said Machado should be signed to "make a point to fans" Where did anyone even suggest that? Nowhere, you made it up.
Second, the Mets should be thinking Machado and Familia and Ramos and Gio, but the key is Machado. 26 years old all-world superstar, available just for $$$ and the Mets opted instead to add a 36 year old, PED punished, already making 2/3 or more of what Machado will make. FOR MONEY, that's why, they did it for money.
ZGiants98 : 11:10 am : link : reply
Hypotheticals as much as anyone but really that should never have been the only avenue to produce a winner or even show they are serious about winning. We had a lot of holes to fill and those players are going to get huge coin and have many suitors. We should set the bar and spend 400 million on one player just to make a point to fans?
No thanks. Ill take adding 5-7 quality players at position of needs just as easily.
Im glad for you the only solution to improving the team was Machado/Harper or bust. Enjoy your miserable existence.
Again. If we ignore the pen the rest of the offseason. And Blevins wins the loogy job in spring training. As the last arm out of the pen. No. Iwould not be concerned with him as the 25th man on the roster. As the THIRD option at best to get a lefty out.
FYI, his steamer is based on him pitching 10 innings in 2019. So his FIp projection would literally tumble if he pitches a good two more innings lol
Im glad for you the only solution to improving the team was Machado/Harper or bust. Enjoy your miserable existence.
So it's confirmed. The English language and your lack of comprehending it, is the root of most of your issues here.
that and the fact you have the online personality of an asshole.
Justin Wilson .188/.301/.342
Xavier Cedeno .207/.281/.293
These 3 are FA that doesn't include Miller and surely other FA + trade targets.
Again. If we ignore the pen the rest of the offseason. And Blevins wins the loogy job in spring training. As the last arm out of the pen. No. Iwould not be concerned with him as the 25th man on the roster. As the THIRD option at best to get a lefty out.
FYI, his steamer is based on him pitching 10 innings in 2019. So his FIp projection would literally tumble if he pitches a good two more innings lol
Lol didn't even catch that but his projection remains the same, trust me lol
Justin Wilson .188/.301/.342
Xavier Cedeno .207/.281/.293
These 3 are FA that doesn't include Miller and surely other FA + trade targets.
.210/.270/.316
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(Where I was clearly referrring to the 4 of which we already added + potentially more) is vastly different than you countering with just bodies.
Im glad for you the only solution to improving the team was Machado/Harper or bust. Enjoy your miserable existence.
So it's confirmed. The English language and your lack of comprehending it, is the root of most of your issues here.
that and the fact you have the online personality of an asshole.
No... more like the lack of you following a discussion for more than a few posts compounded with you being the whiny little twat that you are, makes things difficult sometimes.
I've been on this site for almost 12 years and I have been pretty active and have literally had an issue with one poster. Yes, you. the only one - whether it was politics when those threads were allowed, sports, entertainment, you name it. I've had disagreements, but people state their cases and move on. You get personal and drag it on.
When people disagree with you, you respond by insulting them.
In this case, the situation occurred because I responded, totally politely, to your asinine earthquake post and you felt the need to lash out and insult me.
I don't have a professional degree in psychology, but based on your interactions here my assessment is you have a lack of self-esteem. You take everything personally and cannot engage in adult conversation and exchange of ideas without insults and juvenile barbs.
It's a fundamental process of growing up you may want to work on.
I apologize the other posters on this thread and Mets fans in general. I hate to think that you carry on this way on other threads on other sites, giving Mets fans a bad name.
In the future when I see ZG post I'll try and ignore his posts best I can or if he attacks me I'll let it slide and chalk it up to a medical/mental issue (no offense).
figgy was right, these threads should be about fans getting to exchange ideas and discuss what so far has been and eventful and exciting (not all good, but some good) off-season.
Again, my apologies to the other Mets fans on here. I'm embarrassed by this thread and my contribution to it.
Yankees have Giancarlo Stanton, Aaron Judge, Gleyber Torres, Miguel Andujar (all RH, let's be generous and leave switch hitter Aaron Hicks out of it)
Mets signed Wilson Ramos, have a gimpy Yoenis Cespedes, and Peter Alonso
Yesterday: One of these teams made a statement saying they are set with right handed middle of the order bats and the other hired a former Mets icon to work in their front office who is friends with/shares an agent with Manny Machado in advance of a meeting with Machado today.
So when we talk about Mets payroll.. this is what pisses me off: Give them the benefit, say Madoff had everything to do with it and say they aren't at fault for what happened there (which is arguable). Then WHY LIE!?
For years they insisted it wasn't impacting baseball operations, for years they said they weren't rebuilding and Sandy spewed BS about how they were trying their best to put a competitive team on the field every year to win a WS, and NOW we have BVW following suit and saying that "they are set with RH middle of the order bats"...when the team across town had 4 4+ fWAR players vs the Mets 1 last year and are STILL looking to add Harper or Machado...
New year, New GM, same shitty budget constraints.
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New year, New GM, same shitty budget constraints.
I mean.. when he comes out and starts talking about them being arguably the best team in the division.. that sounds like contentment, not a guy who is still trying to drastically improve the team...
Hoping with all hope that I'm just conditioned to Sandy's BS and that BVW is actually just being coy, and he's going to be aggressive behind the scenes and shock the sports world.... but I doubt it.
Sounds like Wilpon approved Sandy-speak to me...
What a joke.
I like the drawn in arrow, as if we didn't know what to look at in the picture
well they're also trolling Machado. this is pretty funny.
SNY
Verified account @SNYtv
17m17 minutes ago
Manny Machado's meeting with the Yankees lasted 90 minutes, which is roughly how long it takes him to run from home to first. https://on.sny.tv/LRibDiC
Davis too Dan. There's no way he makes it out of camp. He was one of the worst hitters in baseball lat year.
He's 38 years old. I can't see him in the minors.
He's 38 years old. I can't see him in the minors.
+1
But I 100% agree with Dan that the BP needs more. Back end is as good as anyone, front end is empty. Adding Miller or Robertson would rival the Yankees BP the past few years. And I see no excuse to not do it with where they are payroll wise. No other major needs, tons of good options available, market price is reasonable so far.
For the bench, I think they 100% need a borderline starter caliber CF to compete with Lagares. At minimum someone like Jon Jay who can play a lot if necessary. For the rest of it, it's harder to say. They have backup catching options now, Guillorme could be a good backup defensive SS at minimum and deserves a chance, if Rivera is healthy we know he can hit. Once Alonso comes up either Frazier or McNeil will be on the bench.
Josh Harrison, Dietrich, Neil walker, Brad Miller. See what span would sign for? See what Moose would cost to start at third.
Not saying we dont need a guy or two in the mix but that's before I even get to guys like Dom Smith, Cecchini, ect.
Not saying we dont need a guy or two in the mix but that's before I even get to guys like Dom Smith, Cecchini, ect.
Who is this CF who is moving Lagares to the bench? You make it sound like that's a given. Does Jon Jay make the bench better? Maybe marginally. McNeil is good, Rivera is 30 and unproven and those are your 2 best players. That's a bad bench sorry.
Spike... he was one of the worst players in all of baseball.
.247/.290/.348, wRC+ of 79... he had 198 ab's as a Met and struck out 74 times. I suspect he retires.
Wilmer was never given a chance to star full time
Me too. Bat Nimmo and Dietrich in the 1 and 2 spot and well have automatic baserunners via HBP.
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He wasnt half bad last season
Spike... he was one of the worst players in all of baseball.
.247/.290/.348, wRC+ of 79... he had 198 ab's as a Met and struck out 74 times. I suspect he retires.
Like spike said, he wasnt half bad.
He was FULL Bad
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One of Frazier or McNeil is already on it. I assume TJ Rivera is going to get a pretty good crack at it. Assuming we sign an OF, you also have Lagares on it. Right now there is Plawecki and TDA is being touted for his willingness to be versatile.
Not saying we dont need a guy or two in the mix but that's before I even get to guys like Dom Smith, Cecchini, ect.
Who is this CF who is moving Lagares to the bench? You make it sound like that's a given. Does Jon Jay make the bench better? Maybe marginally. McNeil is good, Rivera is 30 and unproven and those are your 2 best players. That's a bad bench sorry.
Easily could be Nimmo but I said "assuming we sign a OF, which Brody has said he would like to add a bazillion times sp thats where I got that from.
Still.... too fun not to share...
" So I'm not too sure how much the Metsmerized group here would
appreciate this bit of rumor news so take it with a grain of salt. But
for someone like myself who knows a few individuals who participated at
the winter meetings in various facets, let's just make a few things very
clear:
1. Brodie is a very committed and hard working
person and he has impressed quite a few front office personnel and
players throughout the game thus far.
2. He is bold and brash in
his approach and takes pride in his abilities. Ownership is fully
invested in his strategy to build a winner NOW. They are entirely
flexible on payroll to the point where parameters could potentially
shift forward to approximately the 175 million mark with his
recommendation.
3. DO NOT believe any rumor the media shares.
They are seeded false misdirects almost daily from the front office. As
you can see every move the team has made thus far has gone almost
entirely over their head. And that will continue.....
Which leads me to the final and potentially greatest misdirect Brodie and Co. has up their sleeves...
At approximately 11:30 EST on December 7, David Wright received a call
from a certain former general manager and current front office assistant
Omar Minaya. At the request of Mr. Brodie Van Wagenen and the Ownership
group, he was asked to join the team for a private meeting with Agent
Scott Boras and his Client Mr. Bryce Harper at the Four Seasons hotel
inside the Mandalay Bay resort. To avoid media exposure, this meeting
took place away from the winter meetings conference area within the main
hotel unbeknownst to any party outside of the Mets front office and
Scott Boras agency.
During this meeting, Brodie, David, Jeff and
the rest of the Mets team presented a scenario from multiple
perspectives to introduce the possibility of Bryce becoming the new face
of the New York Mets. This would include the title of captain and
leader, highest paid player in New York City. As some of you may know,
Mr. Harper recently purchased a very lucrative and conveniently located
penthouse in the city where various Mets players currently reside. He
has the utmost desire to play in New York.
Anyways to recap:
1.
Bryce Harper has requested his agent Scott Boras to inquire on both New
York teams' interest as he has a very strong desire to play for either
the Mets or Yankees. A meeting did indeed take place in secret within
the Four Seasons hotel on Tuesday December 11 with Mets brass. Scott
Boras was told to keep this meeting completely confidential. The only
bit of information seeded to the media was that a mystery owner arrived
to meet with them and David Wright was present as a consultant for the
team. As for David...
2. David Wright has begun a role as
ambassador for the front office to offer his support as a persuasive
agent for top tier free agents that could potentially assume his
leadership and status role with the organization. Bryce Harper being the
perfect example. If Harper is not obtained, Nolan Arenando would be the
next opportunity next season. The team is indeed searching for a new
franchise player.
3. Jeff Wilpon and the Ownership group are
motivated to win now and are willing to shift the parameters of their
financial limitations to accomplish this goal. Let's just say Fred
Wilpon is not getting any younger and he wants a championship real bad.
They are seeking a franchise player to replace David Wright who can
ultimately lead them to a title.
4. Brodie has begun a full on
sales pitch to recruit Bryce Harper and clear as much salary as possible
in the meantime. Signing Wilson Ramos who has a positive relationship
from their time in Washington a good first example. Part of the reason
he is looking to deal Noah Syndergaard is to potentially avoid any
negative confrontations and chemistry disruption due to their previous
issues on the field and through social media. Most likely Noah would
stay at this point in time.
5. I was also told the Mets potential
contract offer could get extremely creative by offering deferment with
highly lucrative incentives. This deal would not have ANY opt outs as
the team wants him to maintain loyalty as the franchise superstar and
captain for years to come. Expect extreme length and less annual value.
My estimation and I know you won't hear this until at least until after
the holidays but the Mets are the favorites for Bryce Harper.
Significantly in fact. I would not be surprised if the Mets offered him a
14 year deal until his age 40 season. Annual value 27 million per year
bringing the contract to around 14 years and 380 million dollars.
Of course the last piece is entire speculation at this point. Regardless,
fact of the matter is the Mets and Boras/Harper have indeed met and
expressed sincere interest. The team is currently moving as many chess
pieces as possible to go forward in January with his acquisition. And I
really look forward to seeing how this plays out. Good luck Mets fans
5
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In comment 14226984 ZGiants98 said:
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One of Frazier or McNeil is already on it. I assume TJ Rivera is going to get a pretty good crack at it. Assuming we sign an OF, you also have Lagares on it. Right now there is Plawecki and TDA is being touted for his willingness to be versatile.
Not saying we dont need a guy or two in the mix but that's before I even get to guys like Dom Smith, Cecchini, ect.
Who is this CF who is moving Lagares to the bench? You make it sound like that's a given. Does Jon Jay make the bench better? Maybe marginally. McNeil is good, Rivera is 30 and unproven and those are your 2 best players. That's a bad bench sorry.
Easily could be Nimmo but I said "assuming we sign a OF, which Brody has said he would like to add a bazillion times sp thats where I got that from.
Sounds great in theory... until you look at the available OF's the top available OF outside of Harper is probably Adam Jones who very likely is a DOWNGRADE over Lagares at this point. The market is unbelievably bad at this point.
2. But Brodie knows he has to sell Jeff before he can sell anyone else. Mentioned that when he was first hired. Hence his big splash at low $$ cost approach up front. Jeff is giddy like a four year old on Xmas right now. Brodie knows how to tickle his balls and make him feel important. He knows how to be liked
3. Brodie is a straight shooter. I wouldnt necessarily agree with the idea here yes, shit is fed, but Brodie is an honest straight forward guy. Believes in respect. The opposite of a shady car salesman.
4. I dont know anything, I just speculate. And Id speculate they are hunting for a big fish, and really big one. I just dont think youd find one in Area 51 or the grassy Knoll lol
The Mets franchise will end up paying Bryce's great grandchildren every year...
Even if there is the slightest bit of truth to putting a package together for Bryce, I will hold out hope. What gives me pause is you have not heard any rumors out there about a Mets/Harper meeting. Shit, every second of Machado's free agency tour is documented.
Arenado is a decent option too, but his road splits not so great, but he plays solid D. He is also two years older than Harper and Machado (when he hits FA) and a lot can happen over the course of a season making him no longer an option.
And how does anyone first respond to a post other than the one with the giant rumor this morning.
3. DO NOT believe any rumor the media shares.
They are seeded false misdirects almost daily from the front office. As
you can see every move the team has made thus far has gone almost
entirely over their head. And that will continue.....
ReplyShare "
I don't know enough to know if this rumor is legit - but I'd say the media sniffed out the Cano deal from the beginning and gave pretty credible intel.
Probably is nothing but its hot stove...
I also read the Mets are out on Marwin Gonzalez. "Not in a position to afford a super utility player". Ignoring the fact that he would be a starter for the Mets, why are they out on a player like this? There is a very slim chance Gonzalez signing turns out to be bad due to the length, age, versatility and cost... He actually fits there needs very well.
These budgetary restraints are pathetic.
2. But Brodie knows he has to sell Jeff before he can sell anyone else. Mentioned that when he was first hired. Hence his big splash at low $$ cost approach up front. Jeff is giddy like a four year old on Xmas right now. Brodie knows how to tickle his balls and make him feel important. He knows how to be liked
3. Brodie is a straight shooter. I wouldnt necessarily agree with the idea here yes, shit is fed, but Brodie is an honest straight forward guy. Believes in respect. The opposite of a shady car salesman.
4. I dont know anything, I just speculate. And Id speculate they are hunting for a big fish, and really big one. I just dont think youd find one in Area 51 or the grassy Knoll lol
First I'll say...The rumor posted by Z is either the best or cruelest thing I'll read all winter...my logical mind says it's BS (Boras doesn't work like that, sounds too good to be true, don't think the Mets really want to spend), but my heart and the optimist in me is praying it's legit...
Now, in response to your post shecky..I think this is why it's very important for Mets fans to not accept the status quo. Social media outrage and consistent pressure to make a big move can only help BVW's case. Apathy won't help, acceptance won't help.
IMO, that site needs tougher moderation.
And how does anyone first respond to a post other than the one with the giant rumor this morning.
1. Proof will be in the pudding right? Or will the Mets meeting with and making Harper a monster offer just be a hidden secret a random poster on a board knows about?
2. I spoke to 1 person with ties to the team and one who is a writer and has Boras connections so yeah both "would know"
3. Boras is known for keeping suitors under the radar? Even for negotiation purposes it makes absolutely no sense on his end
But again proof will be in the pudding right? Either this previous meeting will be substantiated or nobody will ever mention it again correct? Or does throwing shit at the wall now become fact regardless? I stand by my sources. The Mets have not met with Bryce Harper. Could they? Who knows? But this story is a fake.
Wait.. so your stance is even if we never hear about this again it might be true? So how can anyone ever suggest otherwise?
And why would Harper agree to this again? Why would Boras? He's so eager to be a Met? THAT defies logic. He's keeping this really quiet but might sign somewhere else? Again the idea "well it's secret so we may never hear about it" is absurd I'm sorry. Shecky has proven time and time again to have inside information and yet he's consistently said they aren't pursuing him but they should. What would prove the rumor false? Nothing?
I disagree that going after Harper and not signing him but ruin the offseason. I think most Mets fan would rather than atleast try then be completely out. They currently aren't even open to pursuing him currently. That is more frustrating as a fan then losing out on him in a bidding war or having him choose another team.
Dan gets annoyed at bullshit and calls it out when he sees it. IMO, that's a good thing and why he's the MVP of Mets threads.
Because I find it ridiculous when people say "well it's secret so we won't hear about it". Couldn't I say that about anything? "The Mets made the Angels a MONSTER offer for Trout yesterday, the Angels are considering it". Now prove me wrong?
""They are probably looking away a little bit away from the A.J. Pollock's," Martino explained. "You might put Marwin Gonzalez in that level too. Away from the Adam Jones' and more toward depth pieces like the Rajai Davis signing you saw the other day where they feel that they got the middle-of-the-order bats [Robinson] Cano, [Wilson] Ramos. And with Ramos, they really were able to get the bat and the catcher. That took care of those two needs."
As Martino points out, Cano and Ramos will be the power bats in the middle of the order to go around players like Brandon Nimmo and Michael Conforto. And Pollock's asking price at around $15 million isn't attractive for someone who has been an average outfielder over his career.
"The market and the ask for A.J. Pollock is really high right now," Martino said. "My sense on the way they're headed on this is that they feel like they did a lot of their heavy lifting and now we're doing pieces around the fringes."
Although I do take issue with Rajai Davis being mentioned at all. He's 38 and has been bad for 2 years. Really hope he's not part of their actual "plans".
It's not arrogant to interject that this is 100% bullshit. You feel otherwise. That is your right. It's utter BS and even ZGiants (I don't even go to the site he frequents) usually prefaces his stuff with "this guy has posted good information before" and did not with whomever this is.
Because every off-season it's suggested the Mets will run after the top guys and it hasn't happened since... Carlos Beltran. Dems just the facts. So rumors that are utter BS deserve to be called as much. A Mets meeting and pending monster offer for Bryce Harper at the meetings would be known by more than one random poster on a site. Other teams would know this, players etc.
"There is always the slimmest of possibilities the Mets are playing possum and could jump in on Bryce Harper, but Van Wagenens actions and statements in recent weeks suggest otherwise, and this organization has hardly shown a stomach for giving mega-contracts to free agents, who in this case would be seeking north of $300 million.
Why even the slimmest possibility the Mets could pursue Harper? Simply the honeymoon period, as one industry source described it this week, as Van Wagenen continues to put a sparkle in the eye of team COO Jeff Wilpon and could potentially convince his boss to rock the baseball world by signing the 26-year-old slugger."
"While Van Wagenen is downplaying a big right-handed bat who could help in the outfield a description that fits A.J. Pollock the industry still views the Mets as in the hunt for smaller pieces such as Adam Jones and Melky Cabrera.
The fact Jones is represented by CAA, the firm that until recently employed Van Wagenen as the co-head of the baseball division, indicates the lines of communication have remained open between the two sides. But there are questions whether the 33-year-old Jones can still handle center field, where the Mets ideally could use another set of legs. Cabrera is a switch hitter whose center-field days are behind him."
Jones and Cabrera are both terrible options. Jones is shot.
IMO, that site needs tougher moderation.
Seriously? What does the site have to do with what a random commenter posted in the comments section? The people that run that site have more credible sources than anyone here outside of maybe Shecky and Capone. One particular poster there has the biggest source you could possibly ever have in the front office and talks to him weekly. The site also puts out 5-10 articles a day that spurs thousands of comments. No need to shit on the site. Almost all of the best posters from AA defected over to MMO years ago.
""They are probably looking away a little bit away from the A.J. Pollock's," Martino explained. "You might put Marwin Gonzalez in that level too. Away from the Adam Jones' and more toward depth pieces like the Rajai Davis signing you saw the other day where they feel that they got the middle-of-the-order bats [Robinson] Cano, [Wilson] Ramos. And with Ramos, they really were able to get the bat and the catcher. That took care of those two needs."
As Martino points out, Cano and Ramos will be the power bats in the middle of the order to go around players like Brandon Nimmo and Michael Conforto. And Pollock's asking price at around $15 million isn't attractive for someone who has been an average outfielder over his career.
"The market and the ask for A.J. Pollock is really high right now," Martino said. "My sense on the way they're headed on this is that they feel like they did a lot of their heavy lifting and now we're doing pieces around the fringes."
Although I do take issue with Rajai Davis being mentioned at all. He's 38 and has been bad for 2 years. Really hope he's not part of their actual "plans".
The classification of Ramos as a power bat, middle of the order bat...is laughable... he should be hitting 7th on a great team.
The Mets meeting with Cano (Jay-Z) was not in secret.
"Jay Z, a new sports agent whose company now reps Cano, was present along with Mets chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon, general manager Sandy Alderson, assistant GM John Ricco and CAA agent Brodie Van Wagenen at the NoMad Hotel, according to multiple reports. Cano reportedly is looking for a monster deal in the $300 million range, which means that the Mets arent likely bidders."
who's writing this stuff you are posting?
why not (even coyly) acknowledge that they are exploring every option? Ex. we knew 5 years ago the Wilpons weren't spending on cano, but they didn't rule it out.
what benefit does secrecy have?
I guess Fred could wake up any morning and decide to backload a massive contract and go for it to try to win 1 while he's still around. But it seems extremely odd that the mets are hunting a big fish while also saying they can't afford any smaller fish. It could be a negotiating tactic for the smaller fish I guess, but 9999 times out of 10000 when the Mets have said they're done spending, they're done spending.
Cespedes was quietly headed to Houston for slightly less money until the Mets kicked in the no-trade clause.
who's writing this stuff you are posting?
subject got cut off... this was referring to Pollock...
To be clear, I wasn't knocking you or knocking posting it. We argue all the time but you preface this stuff with information regarding the posters background when you buy it.
I hope no one is taking personal shots at Z or he takes it as such. Hes posting with a preface that its just rumor. Anyone here can take them or leave them, but no reason not to pay rumors. Its fun.
Jose Bautista
Nomar Mazara
Trey Mancini
Alex Gordon
Carlos Gonzalez
Adam Duvall
Kole Calhoun
That's it.
2018-
Trey Mancini
Kole Calhoun
Dee Gordon
Teoscar Hernandez
That's it.
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I will 100% preface a legit rumor if it comes from one of the 3-5 guys there that I know are legit. This came from somebody totally random but it seemed fun enough to share.
To be clear, I wasn't knocking you or knocking posting it. We argue all the time but you preface this stuff with information regarding the posters background when you buy it.
Yup.
The Braves asked last week. The DBacks were not interested.
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should call Arizona about Peralta. Arizona likely doesn't move him but no harm asking.
The Braves asked last week. The DBacks were not interested.
Always worth asking. He's quite a story. Former pitcher converted "on the fly".
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In comment 14227396 DanMetroMan said:
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should call Arizona about Peralta. Arizona likely doesn't move him but no harm asking.
The Braves asked last week. The DBacks were not interested.
Always worth asking. He's quite a story. Former pitcher converted "on the fly".
Agreed, he is one of the few OF options left that I find intriguing.
He's exactly what the Mets need.
If I could pull off a JBJ trade without losing Wheeler, Matz, Gimenez, Mauricio, Peterson, Szapucki, Vientos, Nimmo, Conforto, or any other top 10 prospects I'd 100% or players from the roster I'd absolutely do it.
Dom and Plawecki for JBJ. Even throw in TJ Rivera.
Inciarte
Buxton
Broxton
M. Smith
Brinson
Barves?
They have received a lot of calls this offseason for Inciarte, Albies, and Camargo. Albies is not available but they are open to moving Inciarte but it would have to be for a corner OF with some control. They would love to move Acuna to his more natural position in CF but they already have one hole in the OF so trading Inciarte now doesn't make sense unless they get an MLB ready corner OF in return. My dream scenario would be to somehow get Kyle Tucker from the Astros but that is a pipedream.
That said Im very pleased with how the offseason has gone so far. Weve plugged 4 pretty large holes. Im weirdly confident in Brody. Hes going to bring in another OF and another reliever... maybe even a backend starter like Gio.
With the Giants sucking again, Im already ready to get the season started.
He's exactly what the Mets need.
If I could pull off a JBJ trade without losing Wheeler, Matz, Gimenez, Mauricio, Peterson, Szapucki, Vientos, Nimmo, Conforto, or any other top 10 prospects I'd 100% or players from the roster I'd absolutely do it.
Dom and Plawecki for JBJ. Even throw in TJ Rivera.
I like JBJ, but I think he'd be a bit more expensive than Dom and Plawecki (which is basically crap). He had a 2.8 fWar season last year, and Steamer projects him to be even better next year and worth 3.0 fWar. I believe he is still not a free agent until 2021.
I'd love to add him, but it would probably cost something like Vientos or Szapucki or someone else that would hurt a bit. I think I'd still really consider it.
they're at least in the 30% penalty now.
They are dumping salary.
Rumored to being on the block are Porcello, JBJ, and even Bogearts.
I'd be interested in all 3, but JBJ makes the most sense and should cost the least.
His fWAR prediction is almost all defense, which is not a player I'd pony up big prospects for.
Aaron Gleeman doesn't think the Twins would move Buxton unless blown away. Blown away is subjective and as Shecky noted there is some weirdness between how the Twins have handled him that I don't think we as fans really understand. I don't think they view Cave as an every day guy (the k-rate is absurd) but I think Buxton's worst case is still likely Juan Lagares with more speed and it's not impossible he figures it out with the bat. He really struggles with balls in the dirt. pitchers know changing eye levels is killer to him but it's not as if he's NEVER hit before.
they're at least in the 30% penalty now.
They are dumping salary.
Rumored to being on the block are Porcello, JBJ, and even Bogearts.
I'd be interested in all 3, but JBJ makes the most sense and should cost the least.
His fWAR prediction is almost all defense, which is not a player I'd pony up big prospects for.
I'm not particularly interested in Bogaerts unless the Mets are extending him immediately. He's going to cost big talent AND a FA after the year. Not emptying out the farm to see the Dodgers or Yankees give him 200 million after the year.
they're at least in the 30% penalty now.
They are dumping salary.
Rumored to being on the block are Porcello, JBJ, and even Bogearts.
I'd be interested in all 3, but JBJ makes the most sense and should cost the least.
His fWAR prediction is almost all defense, which is not a player I'd pony up big prospects for.
If the market for him falls out and we can get him for practically nothing, then sure let's pounce. I'd be happy to be wrong, but given the prevalence of analytic GMs, I'd have to imagine that if BOS made it known that they needed to cut salary and that he was available, at least one team would put a real bid in for him.
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are paying the luxury tax for the second year (after this season).
they're at least in the 30% penalty now.
They are dumping salary.
Rumored to being on the block are Porcello, JBJ, and even Bogearts.
I'd be interested in all 3, but JBJ makes the most sense and should cost the least.
His fWAR prediction is almost all defense, which is not a player I'd pony up big prospects for.
I'm not particularly interested in Bogaerts unless the Mets are extending him immediately. He's going to cost big talent AND a FA after the year. Not emptying out the farm to see the Dodgers or Yankees give him 200 million after the year.
Right, I'd be interested mainly because he's a good player, so I'd do my due diligence.
JBJ would be my main target and I wouldn't want to deal a core player or highly regarded prospect for him.
But, I'd listen on Porcello too, similar to Bogaerts.
What would you be willing to give up for Inciarte? Keep in mind the Braves will want a corner OF so that would mean either Nimmo or Conforto. Now obviously Inciarte alone will not get them Conforto but the Braves will not want Lagares because of his injury concerns and the fact that Acuna Jr. is in CF plus top prospect CF Christian Pache will be ready at some point in 2020.
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are paying the luxury tax for the second year (after this season).
they're at least in the 30% penalty now.
They are dumping salary.
Rumored to being on the block are Porcello, JBJ, and even Bogearts.
I'd be interested in all 3, but JBJ makes the most sense and should cost the least.
His fWAR prediction is almost all defense, which is not a player I'd pony up big prospects for.
If the market for him falls out and we can get him for practically nothing, then sure let's pounce. I'd be happy to be wrong, but given the prevalence of analytic GMs, I'd have to imagine that if BOS made it known that they needed to cut salary and that he was available, at least one team would put a real bid in for him.
Dom Smith and Plawecki isn't nothing. Just because the Mets may not value them. Smith is 1 year away from being a top 100 prospect and leading the PCL in hits and Plawecki had a higher fWAR than any Red Sox catcher last year.
I'd even throw in a someone like TJ Rivera, like I said, who might thrive as a DH/utility infielders at Fenway.
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is there a desire to add a corner and move Acuna to center or is Inciarte locked in? I doubt Atlanta wants to help the mets but he'd be a very nice fit in CF on a very nice contract.
What would you be willing to give up for Inciarte? Keep in mind the Braves will want a corner OF so that would mean either Nimmo or Conforto. Now obviously Inciarte alone will not get them Conforto but the Braves will not want Lagares because of his injury concerns and the fact that Acuna Jr. is in CF plus top prospect CF Christian Pache will be ready at some point in 2020.
Trying to anticipate someone that would interest Atlanta, I'd say Matz or Wheeler. From the Atlanta side that would allow them to sign a COF (like Jones or Markakis) who could arguably even upgrade them offensively from Inciarte, and they'd add a pitcher. Wheeler obviously could be a front of the rotation option though he only has 1 year of control. From the met side they get inciarte and can use $ to sign a SP.
I'd almost definitely do Matz, Wheeler I'd be much more hesitant to trade in division. The fact that Mallex Smith (who i'd value over Inciarte) only returned Zunino would probably lead me to going for a name on the list I posted above that doesn't cost Wheeler but rather some combo of Matz/Plawecki/Dom Smith/Lugo/non top 10 prospects.
I think Cahill would've been a nice add to the Mets at that price. Anything to avoid penciling in Vargas for 25+ starts.
On the cheap I like Jay best and Gomez 2nd best. Jay has played 140 games the last 2 years, last year with positive defense, he doesn't strike out, and while ideally he's just a 4th OF'er, he wouldn't kill you for a month or two playing every day while you either wait for a trade or Cespedes. Gomez brings similar D but is more of a boom or bust option.
While my preference is 1 of the higher upside young guys mentioned above, in a worst case scenario I think you have some flexibility with the OF to think of it as "who can get us through the first half" because even if Cespedes gets delayed it's easy to pickup an OF at the deadline - and at that point you know who is playing well and who isn't among trade targets.
Sprinting speed-
Jones 2015 42/60 28.1 f/s
Jones 2016 41/61 28 f/s
Jones 2017 68/72 27.1 f/s
Jones 2018 62/63 26.7 f/s
The proverbial.. "lost a step" could not be more true
Thats a stretch no? They just spent $20-$25mm for two name pitchers. Who may be anywhere from halfway decent to DFAd by the all star break. I look at what theyre doing and the only thing I see is plugging the holes in the dam hoping it doesnt burst.
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Gio, Holland, Pomeranz remain
Thats a stretch no? They just spent $20-$25mm for two name pitchers. Who may be anywhere from halfway decent to DFAd by the all star break. I look at what theyre doing and the only thing I see is plugging the holes in the dam hoping it doesnt burst.
But these are SP. This would move Vargas to the BP. Holland and Gio are both clearly better than Vargas and Pomeranz would be a CAA special/buy low.
Sprinting speed-
Jones 2015 42/60 28.1 f/s
Jones 2016 41/61 28 f/s
Jones 2017 68/72 27.1 f/s
Jones 2018 62/63 26.7 f/s
The proverbial.. "lost a step" could not be more true
This got me curious about the other guys we are talking about and surprisingly Rajai Davis is still pretty high up on the leaderboard at 29.3. 2nd fastest current met behind Rosario. Obviously his bat sucks but maybe he will be an option as a pinch runner and late game defensive sub if injuries hit. Gomez also at 28 mph.
Really want to snag 1 of:
Buxton - 30.5mph
Mallex - 29.8mph
Broxton - 29.7mph
Margot - 29.4mph
Mallex only cost Zunino. Some combo of Matz/Plawecki/Dom/Lugo should be enough to get 1 of these guys.
I agree on your trio as Mets targets though.
Trying to anticipate someone that would interest Atlanta, I'd say Matz or Wheeler. From the Atlanta side that would allow them to sign a COF (like Jones or Markakis) who could arguably even upgrade them offensively from Inciarte, and they'd add a pitcher. Wheeler obviously could be a front of the rotation option though he only has 1 year of control. From the met side they get inciarte and can use $ to sign a SP.
I'd almost definitely do Matz, Wheeler I'd be much more hesitant to trade in division. The fact that Mallex Smith (who i'd value over Inciarte) only returned Zunino would probably lead me to going for a name on the list I posted above that doesn't cost Wheeler but rather some combo of Matz/Plawecki/Dom Smith/Lugo/non top 10 prospects.
I wish Atlanta was able to hang onto Mallex Smith but I would have made that Luiz Gohara trade 10 times out of 10. Smith was a fan favorite in Atlanta but unfortunately they couldn't start him in a corner OF spot with Inciarte in CF because Smith's bat doesn't profile there. Inciarte is a better defender out of the two. Smith is a very good leadoff man and would be a perfect fit for the Mets.
Link - ( New Window )
those two answers tell you a lot about a guy
that was amazing.
It's a little frustrating that they didn't go hard for him. He's young and they have several good young players locked up for years on cheap deals (Acuna Jr., Albies, Camargo, Swanson, Inciarte) Adding Harper to that lineup would make them the favorites in the NL East. I am actually happy that they didn't do anything big to the rotation but they need to add a reliever to the pen. They will have 5 top 100 prospects in their AAA rotation this year. As of now the likely rotation features Foltynewicz, Newcomb, Gausman, Soroka, Fried/Toussaint. Then there is Luiz Gohara, Kyle Wright, Bryse Wilson, Fried/Toussaint, and Kolby Allard in AAA. Then there is Ian Anderson and Kyle Muller in AA.
I used to be against starting the service time clock with moving SP prospects to the bullpen early on but after seeing the performance of Lugo with the Mets I would love to see the Braves move Gohara, Wilson, and Patrick Weigel to the bullpen this year to strengthen the pen instead of spending huge money that could be used on an OF.
That statement is true for 4 of the 5 teams in the division.
How many times do 26 year old free agents come around that you can say that about??
No love for Ervin Santana?
2 years $24M.
Andrew Miller - ( New Window )
I should say close to signing with Cardinals
Prediction: Angels idea of a rotation made up entirely of third and fourth starters won't work out well for them,
He's got a NTC, and is entering the last year of his deal, so no idea if he'd do it or if they would, but he's been an unmitigated disaster the past few years - to the point he could be DFA'd. Velocity loss doesn't lie.
but...I think if he were a 5th starter he'd maybe pitch with less pressure and would fit in well and who knows, maybe he gets semi-healthy over the winter. Hard to believe without injury he became such a horse shit pitcher at 30.
only 33 years old on a 2 year deal
Diaz
Leclerc
Familia
Minor
Gsellman
D Smith
Vargas
Noice.
He's got a NTC, and is entering the last year of his deal, so no idea if he'd do it or if they would, but he's been an unmitigated disaster the past few years - to the point he could be DFA'd. Velocity loss doesn't lie.
but...I think if he were a 5th starter he'd maybe pitch with less pressure and would fit in well and who knows, maybe he gets semi-healthy over the winter. Hard to believe without injury he became such a horse shit pitcher at 30.
Please tell that to Brady ..we could work on that over Christmas if need be .
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I'm still surprised nobody is ever willing to just put him at 1B or DH vs. 2B. If we could have traded Alonso to Seattle for Diaz instead of Kelenic, Murphy on a cheap deal to play 1B would have made every bit as big of an impact as Cano hitting 3rd. And Mcneil could have kept his position.
only 33 years old on a 2 year deal
Mariners would not of excepted Allonzo as one of the two pieces....They dont value him as high as Dunn Not close to JK
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wanted to dump Felix Hernandez for nothing (and eat some cash - like half of the $27M he's owed).
He's got a NTC, and is entering the last year of his deal, so no idea if he'd do it or if they would, but he's been an unmitigated disaster the past few years - to the point he could be DFA'd. Velocity loss doesn't lie.
but...I think if he were a 5th starter he'd maybe pitch with less pressure and would fit in well and who knows, maybe he gets semi-healthy over the winter. Hard to believe without injury he became such a horse shit pitcher at 30.
Please tell that to Brady ..we could work on that over Christmas if need be .
Is he injured? How did his velocity did so much as 31 years old?
Are they going to ride it out with him or DFA him?
I'd take a chance if it was just money, and it's just one year.
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In comment 14228158 Eric on Li said:
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I'm still surprised nobody is ever willing to just put him at 1B or DH vs. 2B. If we could have traded Alonso to Seattle for Diaz instead of Kelenic, Murphy on a cheap deal to play 1B would have made every bit as big of an impact as Cano hitting 3rd. And Mcneil could have kept his position.
only 33 years old on a 2 year deal
Mariners would not of excepted Allonzo as one of the two pieces....They dont value him as high as Dunn Not close to JK
No one values Alonso that highly, especially for an NL team, except some Mets fans.
Is anyone from BBI on here?
he's from CA so I assume he and Dodgers will just reunite at the end of the offseason but I agree, he'd be a good type to add as a middle reliever.
Each of the last 3 seasons they entered ST with just 2 backend relievers who had been very good the year prior. Only in 2016 did both of those guys stay healthy all year and the wheels of the BP not fall off. The Yankees have had the best BP in baseball for years running now and the formula isn't complicated - 3 proven end of game relievers (Betances, Robertson, Chapman).
Verified account
@JeffPassan
15m15 minutes ago
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The trade that sent Jurickson Profar to the Oakland As is part of a three-way deal that also includes the Texas Rangers and Tampa Bay Rays, league sources tell Yahoo Sports. There are multiple major leaguers and minor leaguers involved, plus a draft pick and international $.
Link - ( New Window )
great signing - I admit there's a lot of risk in his injuries/age, but hopefully they can get Robertson or Ottavino for a similar contract. Would imagine both will end up without a guaranteed 3rd year.
Good interview. Law is pretty balanced about the system and I completely agree with him about not getting good value for Kelenic. If they'd have just traded him and Dunn alone you could have probably gotten someone more valuable than Diaz, and we obviously know Cano had negative value. For example, you trade Kelenic/Dunn for Realmuto and then you go out and sign 2 relievers instead of 1, keep Swarzak/Bruce and hope they contribute. Payroll isn't much different right now and in the future you don't have $60m less on the books 2020-2022. I'd have preferred signing Ramos to just about any Realmuto trade, so if it were me I'd have just signed Ramos/Familia/Miller and kept the prospects to get something I couldn't have gotten through FA - like Kluber.
1 thing I do take issue with is the overhyping of Kelenic and undervaluing of Gimenez. They are separated by 10 months in age and both are so young it is anybody's guess how they physically age/develop. I guess you can love Kelenic's swing and makeup that much, but Gimenez' is 3 full levels ahead of him, performing well against older players, and winning "best tools" across multiple categories within those leagues. Players can have upside without being projected to hit a lot of home runs. Kelenic seems to be in that category to some degree too.
Texas receive: prospects Brock Burke, Eli White, Kyle Bird, Yoel Espinal and international bonus pool money
Rays receive: reliever Emilio Pagan, prospect Rollie Lacy and a competitive balance pick.
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Sit down with Law. Some decent tidbits. Link - ( New Window )
Good interview. Law is pretty balanced about the system and I completely agree with him about not getting good value for Kelenic. If they'd have just traded him and Dunn alone you could have probably gotten someone more valuable than Diaz, and we obviously know Cano had negative value. For example, you trade Kelenic/Dunn for Realmuto and then you go out and sign 2 relievers instead of 1, keep Swarzak/Bruce and hope they contribute. Payroll isn't much different right now and in the future you don't have $60m less on the books 2020-2022. I'd have preferred signing Ramos to just about any Realmuto trade, so if it were me I'd have just signed Ramos/Familia/Miller and kept the prospects to get something I couldn't have gotten through FA - like Kluber.
1 thing I do take issue with is the overhyping of Kelenic and undervaluing of Gimenez. They are separated by 10 months in age and both are so young it is anybody's guess how they physically age/develop. I guess you can love Kelenic's swing and makeup that much, but Gimenez' is 3 full levels ahead of him, performing well against older players, and winning "best tools" across multiple categories within those leagues. Players can have upside without being projected to hit a lot of home runs. Kelenic seems to be in that category to some degree too.
Law has always been about upside. As of now Gimenez is good at everything but not elite. That doesn't mean that he won't become a great player eventually and surprise at the plate. Nobody and I mean nobody besides Chipper Jones thought that Johan Camargo was going to hit enough at the plate to be more than a utilityman. His power was a major concern also. Only 15 home runs in his entire minor league career (in 548 games). Last season for Atlanta 19 homeruns in just 134 games. Gimenez is a much better prospect than Camargo was. As Gimenez adds to his frame the power might improve.
I hear many people compare Gimenez to Ruben Tejada.
Look at Tejada's 19 year old season in AA, it's eerily similar to Gimenez'
In fact, in many regards Tejada had a better 19 year old season in AA at 19.
Kelenic I have heard Mark Kotsay (as a floor).
Of course it's a lot projection, but sometimes the projection isn't guessing, it's predictable.
Ruben Tejada debuted in Queens as a 20 year, to very little fanfare because he wasn't expected to be a star.
Flores was more well regarded than Tejada.
Just saying I'd have parted ways with Gimenez in a heartbeat before Kelenic and it could work out to be 100% wrong, but based on what I have read (which is really all us fans have to go on) the gap is large between Kelenic and Gimenez from a prospect ceiling standpoint. I hope it works out opposite.
-Peterson, Plawecki, + for Leclerc and Minor
-Dietrich and Jones to fill out the bench
117 wins
:)
Mets probably throw in some minor (no pun intended) prospects like Rhame and Hanhold
I dont see why Minor would want to stay in Texas with a team that has just signaled rebuild
I think this one actually could happen
I hear many people compare Gimenez to Ruben Tejada.
Look at Tejada's 19 year old season in AA, it's eerily similar to Gimenez'
In fact, in many regards Tejada had a better 19 year old season in AA at 19.
Kelenic I have heard Mark Kotsay (as a floor).
Of course it's a lot projection, but sometimes the projection isn't guessing, it's predictable.
Ruben Tejada debuted in Queens as a 20 year, to very little fanfare because he wasn't expected to be a star.
Flores was more well regarded than Tejada.
Just saying I'd have parted ways with Gimenez in a heartbeat before Kelenic and it could work out to be 100% wrong, but based on what I have read (which is really all us fans have to go on) the gap is large between Kelenic and Gimenez from a prospect ceiling standpoint. I hope it works out opposite.
I'm a very big fan of comparisons - here are 3 relevant points re: Tejada:
1. Gimenez is by all accounts a hard worker. Had Tejada simply been that, he might have turned out to be a good player.
2. As limited as Tejada's talent was, his age 21 and 22 MLB seasons were each indisputably better than Rosario's first 2 years, and we all know how limited Tejada was compared to Rosario. Instead of developing as he aged he regressed (see point #1) but it's easy to forget that he was a promising piece at one point.
3. All Gimenez' tools have been graded out better by scouts and played out better than Tejada's on the field. Tejada was never a highly ranked prospect. BA only had him as the 9th best prospect in the Mets system after his very comparable to Gimenez age 19 season because it appeared very fluky based on his previous track record whereas Gimenez has hit at every level. Athletically speaking Gimenez almost stole 40 bases last year, Tejada never stole 20.
Now add back in the fact that Gimenez' age 19 season was the best we've seen in our system since Reyes. Better than both Rosario and Tejada. I can certainly accept that he may not have the ceiling Rosario or Reyes, but if the floor is a harder working, more athletic version of Ruben Tejada that's already a higher ceiling that people realize. That's better than what Rosario has shown to date. There were only 9 shortstops in all baseball this year who hit league average or better with positive impact D (according to FG overall D metric). Seems like a much much safer bet that Gimenez will be able to do that than pegging Kelenic to any outcome good or bad since he has just barely gotten his feet wet in pro ball.
For one, Gimenez spent the bulk of it in a lower level tha Tejada (A+: STL vs AA BIN) here are their age 19 seasons:
Gimenez: .281/.349/.409 OPS: .756, an even .100 wRC+ in AA
Tejada: .289/.351/.381 OPS: .732, an .106 wRC+ in AA
Stolen bases is the only area Gimenez has a marked advantage, but Tejada was no slouch with 19 SB's vs 3 CS's. Gimenez also had a higher BABIP, so maybe you could expect some regression with a larger sample size.
I don't think anyone claimed Tejada had Gimenez' speed though, no idea about athleticism, but most projected Tejada as a light hitting defensive SS as I recall.
I just don't see anyone going gaga over Gimenez' age 19 season. Which is good, not great and not markedly better than Tejada who spent a shitload more time in AA than Gimenez as a 19 year old.
Anyway, my point isn't to compare stat by stat Gimenez and Tejada, it's my opinion about why people view Kelenic differently.
I didn't make this up, I've read multiple scouts comp Gimenez to Tejada and Kelenic to much higher end players.
That's it. Many (most?) scouts view Kelenic as having a much higher ceiling. Scouts aren't always right and I hope this is one they get wrong.
Mike Puma
Verified account @NYPost_Mets
Mets are receiving "significant" interest in Travis d'Arnaud and Kevin Plawecki. Hearing it's possible one will be dealt for a backup infielder or outfielder. Also, A.J. Pollock and Mike Minor not so likely right now.
3:57 PM - 21 Dec 2018
Possibly true, but in a rebuild, many times teams value the ceiling, not the floor. If the floor (and ceiling are close and the floor is Tejada)
this what you were referring to?
Mike Puma
Verified account @NYPost_Mets
Also heard today: The Mets arent completely sold on Jeff McNeil yet, but fear trading him and watching him become Daniel Murphy or Justin Turner.
4:25 PM - 21 Dec 2018
For one, Gimenez spent the bulk of it in a lower level tha Tejada (A+: STL vs AA BIN) here are their age 19 seasons:
Gimenez: .281/.349/.409 OPS: .756, an even .100 wRC+ in AA
Tejada: .289/.351/.381 OPS: .732, an .106 wRC+ in AA
Stolen bases is the only area Gimenez has a marked advantage, but Tejada was no slouch with 19 SB's vs 3 CS's. Gimenez also had a higher BABIP, so maybe you could expect some regression with a larger sample size.
I don't think anyone claimed Tejada had Gimenez' speed though, no idea about athleticism, but most projected Tejada as a light hitting defensive SS as I recall.
I just don't see anyone going gaga over Gimenez' age 19 season. Which is good, not great and not markedly better than Tejada who spent a shitload more time in AA than Gimenez as a 19 year old.
Anyway, my point isn't to compare stat by stat Gimenez and Tejada, it's my opinion about why people view Kelenic differently.
I didn't make this up, I've read multiple scouts comp Gimenez to Tejada and Kelenic to much higher end players.
That's it. Many (most?) scouts view Kelenic as having a much higher ceiling. Scouts aren't always right and I hope this is one they get wrong.
Yea I don't disagree with what you've seen - I've seen it too. My point outside of your post was that I think that conventional wisdom is missing context and underselling Gimenez. Tejada's numbers were a major outlier for him whereas that's not the case with Gimenez. I don't know if Kelenic is being oversold or not, just haven't seen enough of him to know.
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Mets don't believe in McNeil, nice. Typical.
this what you were referring to?
Mike Puma
Verified account @NYPost_Mets
Also heard today: The Mets arent completely sold on Jeff McNeil yet, but fear trading him and watching him become Daniel Murphy or Justin Turner.
4:25 PM - 21 Dec 2018
Their track record with believing in their own is absolutely awful.
Again.. PRE-Cano deal
Jarrett Seidler
@jaseidler
Nov 7
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I cant see any way Cabrera is signing without being promised the second base job and BVW heavily hedged when asked about McNeil at second so well there you go
How many teams don't pencil in Jeff McNeil at 2b given what he did? Now Cano is a big player but they were ready to go with other inferior options as well
Jarrett Seidler
@jaseidler
Nov 26
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McNeil for a partially subsidized Cano would be extremely Mets
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Jarrett Seidler
@jaseidler
Aug 4
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I am starting to think they I shouldve just given into my impulse to write McNeil as a 6
Jarrett Seidler
@jaseidler
Jun 1
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The Mets buried Nimmo as the fifth outfielder all April after signing Bruce to permanently block him, and even sent him down even though he was good last year there was obvious huge changes to his swing in spring. Lets not give them too much process credit here.
Jarrett Seidler
@jaseidler
May 30
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The idea that the Mets are benching Conforto again to get Bautista in against a righty and creating a Bautista/Nimmo/Bruce outfield in front of a bad extreme flyballer in a must win game is just something
Lets not pretend the Mets track record is strong here
Jeff McNeil wasn't just great for 67 games.. he was a MONSTER all season.
AA... 182 wRC+ (would have led the league if eligible), AAA 165 (also would have led the league). He was wire to wire awesome, with people who previously had doubts (Paternostro, Seidler etc) acknowledging the change, how he was hitting ROCKETS in the minors etc. Normal teams believe in guys like that until they have reason not to
100% agree. Mcneil showed very high end contact skills and pretty good athleticism. Those are 2 things that should be exciting going forward. His babip was high, but not crazily so. Nimmo's babip was similar. We are excited about Nimmo because he also showed a very high end skill with his ability to draw walks, he hustles, and he has some athleticism you can believe in beyond just drawing walks. Those are guys you give time to let fail. Selling them for better players, sure maybe that would make sense, benching either for Todd Frazier doesn't make any sense.
I know Flores' career didn't wind up how many of us hoped or anticipated, but the Mets did him no favors.
Same so far with the aforementioned Nimmo.
They've almost already blocked Alonso because where does 37, 38, 39 and 40 year old Cano go?
Pretty sure those legs aren't play second base everyday.
I know Flores' career didn't wind up how many of us hoped or anticipated, but the Mets did him no favors.
Same so far with the aforementioned Nimmo.
They've almost already blocked Alonso because where does 37, 38, 39 and 40 year old Cano go?
Pretty sure those legs aren't play second base everyday.
Agreed all around. Just let the best guys play and let everyone compete. It's not that complicated. honestly I wouldn't even have an issue letting Mcneil try out CF. Who knows. Just don't make decisions around a mediocre vet like Frazier. That only makes everyone look bad when he's hitting .185 on May 1st. I actually think he will have a bounce back year but why make the decision on who to start right now?
Who knows how many games that might cost the Mets. 1, 2, 3? Could be the difference between wild card or not, or shit it's December, could be the difference between the division or not.
1 game in April is just as valuable as 1 game in September.
I'd do what you said, start the best players and ideally it works out that Frazier is your backup, not the other way around, and not a situation that when Frazier fails you then put McNeil in when you're 5 games out of the wild card and clinging to meaningful baseball by the all-star break.
I think all fans obviously want the team to win first and foremost, but I also think most fans would accept losing with youth (though that's relative with McNeil) more than losing with mediocre veterans like Frazier.
- Keith Law, December 2019
PAY UP DAN lol
- Keith Law, December 2019
PAY UP DAN lol
I saw that and immediately thought of you. Where do you fall in the kelenic/dunn ranking discussion? I think Law is still overly high on Dunn, as has been his MO with high draft picks he likes. I like Kelenic a lot, but I still fail to see where he's on some other level from Vientos or Gimenez.
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They were clearly a top 10 system for me before the trade
- Keith Law, December 2019
PAY UP DAN lol
I saw that and immediately thought of you. Where do you fall in the kelenic/dunn ranking discussion? I think Law is still overly high on Dunn, as has been his MO with high draft picks he likes. I like Kelenic a lot, but I still fail to see where he's on some other level from Vientos or Gimenez.
I called Kelenic Harper-lite,the good with the bad, draft time. I love that old school scrappy player. One of his first pro games he was caught looking for a K. He was PISSED, cursing up a storm on way to dugout. Within 30 seconds he came out to talk to the coaches about what his approach was, etc and seeing what he did wrong and what to improve I LOVE THAT!!!!!
Dunn is good, in my opinion is boom or bust. Something clicks and hes filthy. It doesnt click hes quadA or good setup arm
Kelenic has a chance to be special. My personal low end on him is an8-10 year career that people undervalue him. His upside is just special, unique.
Quote:
They were clearly a top 10 system for me before the trade
- Keith Law, December 2019
PAY UP DAN lol
I saw that and immediately thought of you. Where do you fall in the kelenic/dunn ranking discussion? I think Law is still overly high on Dunn, as has been his MO with high draft picks he likes. I like Kelenic a lot, but I still fail to see where he's on some other level from Vientos or Gimenez.
I know draft picks don't always pan out, but why do you think Kelenic was #6 overall draft pick, Vientos went in the 2nd round, and Gimenez was the #15 ranked IFA in his class?
Most people feel like Kelenic has a higher upside than the others.
May not pan out that way, but think think that's pretty clear.
That opinion has appeared to shift upwards (like Law stating that he's a top 20-30 prospect in all of baseball) but some of the more localized prospect writers (like the guys from baseball prospectus who follow the mets system a little more closely) have been a little more muted relative to the rest of the met system. His debut in pro ball last year was perfectly acceptable and it definitely appears his make up has won scouts over in a big way (as shecky's thoughts indicate). Here's what BP said about Kelenic in his updated Mets top 10 a couple weeks ago:
So my question with Kelenic is specifically in comparison with other similarly aged guys in the system like Vientos (half a year younger) and Gimenez (half a year older) who also have blue chip pedigrees and have flashed impressive tools at premium positions. In Gimenez' case his makeup has also been similarly praised. I wish we still had all 3 I just personally am curious as to what specifically separates Kelenic from those 2.
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In comment 14229175 Shecky said:
Quote:
They were clearly a top 10 system for me before the trade
- Keith Law, December 2019
PAY UP DAN lol
I saw that and immediately thought of you. Where do you fall in the kelenic/dunn ranking discussion? I think Law is still overly high on Dunn, as has been his MO with high draft picks he likes. I like Kelenic a lot, but I still fail to see where he's on some other level from Vientos or Gimenez.
I called Kelenic Harper-lite,the good with the bad, draft time. I love that old school scrappy player. One of his first pro games he was caught looking for a K. He was PISSED, cursing up a storm on way to dugout. Within 30 seconds he came out to talk to the coaches about what his approach was, etc and seeing what he did wrong and what to improve I LOVE THAT!!!!!
Dunn is good, in my opinion is boom or bust. Something clicks and hes filthy. It doesnt click hes quadA or good setup arm
Kelenic has a chance to be special. My personal low end on him is an8-10 year career that people undervalue him. His upside is just special, unique.
Thanks Shecky. Knowing that's how you feel about him, would you have given him up for Diaz?
2008 - Kyle Skipworth
2009 - Zach Wheeler
2010 - Barrett Loux
2011 - Anthony Rendon
2012 - Albert Almora
If the 2 leaders are within 5% of each other, or the leader has less than 30% there will be a run-off between the top 2. If a run-off results in a tie the tiebreaker will be vote total in the previous poll, we will continue to "go back" in the polls until there is a clear leader.
*Jeff McNeil is ineligible
*Chris Flexen is ineligible
*Drew Smith is ineligible
*Tyler Bashlor is ineligible
1) Andres Gimenez (SS) AA 19/37 votes- 51%
2) Peter Alonso (1B) AAA 24/36 votes- 67%
3) Ronny Mauricio (SS) Kingsport 12/33-36%
4) Mark Vientos (3b) Kingsport 16/31-52%
5) David Peterson (LHP) A+ 21/31- 68%
6) Franklyn Kilome (RHP) AA 20/33-61%
7) Thomas Szapucki (LHP) A 18/32-56%
8) Shervyen Newton (SS) Kingsport 12/30-40%, Run-off with Anthony Kay 17/33-52%
9) Anthony Kay (LHP) AA 18/26-69%
10) Simeon Woods-Richardson (RHP) Kingsport 12/30-40%
11) Luis Santana (2B) 15/26-58%
12) Will Toffey (3B) 10/29-34%, run-off with Cecchini 15/27-56%
13) Gavin Cecchini (2b) 14/26-46%
14) Francisco Alvarez (C) 9/26-35%
15) Dez Lindsay (OF) 7/18-39%
16) Tony Dibrell (RHP) 9/23-39%
17) Jordan Humphreys (RHP) 7/21-33%, Run-off with Nido 18/24-75%
18) Ross Adolph (OF) 6/25-24%, run-off with Nido 18/25-72%
19) Adam Hill (RHP) 4/26-15%, Run-off with Nido/Crismatt 11/26-58%
20) Junior Santos (RHP) 6/28-21%, Run-off with Nido 11/20-55%
21) Tomas Nido (C) 10/23-43%
22) Luis Guillorme (SS) 9/24-38%
23) Adrian Hernandez 6/26-23%, run-off with Wahl/Cortes 8/15-53%
24) Carlos Cortes (2b) 8/21-38%
25) Steven Villines (RHP) 4/16 25%, Run-off with Thompson/Wahl 9/23-39%
26) David Thompson (3b) 8/23-35%
27) Ali Sanchez (C) 9/17-53%
28) Bobby Wahl (RHP) 11/25-44%
29) Eric Hanhold (RHP) 7/21-33%, run-off 7/20-35%
30) Luis Carpio (IF) 4/18-22%, runoff with Uriarte 9/14-64%
31) Stanley Consuegra (OF) 4/20-20%, runoff with Uriarte/Valdez 6/17-35%, advances due to more votes in previous poll
32) Juan Uriarte (C) 4/19-21%
33) Freddy Valdez (OF) 7/17-41%
34) Daniel Zamora (LHP) 3/17-18%, run-off with Montes De Oca 10/12-83%
35) Jaylen Palmer (??) 3/12-25%, run-off with Montes de Oca/Vilera 9/16-56%
36) Ryley Gilliam (RHP) 5/22-23%, run-off with Manea 8/16-50%, advances due to more votes in previous poll
37) Matt Winaker (OF) 4/22-18
38) Kyle Dowdy (RHP) 6/20-30%, run-off with Vilera 9/12-75%
39) Jaison Vilera (RHP) 6/17-35%
But...
Im a huge fan of a dominant pen, but not a dominant reliever. Just my opinion, and I know its a minority opinion. Diaz has a chance to be in that rarified air of consistent, dominant end of game shut down guy hes young, controllable (in my opinion, closer is the least valuable controlable Asset since their arb pay is grosslyinflataaed compared to any other position)
Anyway, Im rambling. This is one of the toughest trades to say you like or dont like. Too many pieces. Cano. His contract. The $20mm. Bruce/Swarz. Their contracts. Diaz. The prospects Dunn/Kelenic. Theres simply too much to say if you liked the trade or not. But Brodie wanted/needed to make a statement. Knew the first deal he made he needed to have other orgs scratch their heads wondering if he knows what hes doing. Excite the fan base. EXCITE JEFF. He had to make this trade, and Seattle was NOT making this trade without Kelenic... lol, damn I rambled...
But...
Im a huge fan of a dominant pen, but not a dominant reliever. Just my opinion, and I know its a minority opinion. Diaz has a chance to be in that rarified air of consistent, dominant end of game shut down guy hes young, controllable (in my opinion, closer is the least valuable controlable Asset since their arb pay is grosslyinflataaed compared to any other position)
Anyway, Im rambling. This is one of the toughest trades to say you like or dont like. Too many pieces. Cano. His contract. The $20mm. Bruce/Swarz. Their contracts. Diaz. The prospects Dunn/Kelenic. Theres simply too much to say if you liked the trade or not. But Brodie wanted/needed to make a statement. Knew the first deal he made he needed to have other orgs scratch their heads wondering if he knows what hes doing. Excite the fan base. EXCITE JEFF. He had to make this trade, and Seattle was NOT making this trade without Kelenic... lol, damn I rambled...
It was a good ramble though. I agree with just about all of it. Every piece in the deal was high variance so I guess we just wait and see.
That's a very fair point. I guess my argument isn't so much that I'm opposed to not being high on the other guys, but rather curious about why (especially when his own opinion seems to have evolved a lot in a short period of time).
Generally speaking the scouting industry does not "buy" RH 1b and for the most part they are right. The list isn't long. The list doens't have to be long for Alonso to be good but it's betting on the side of recent history which seems "Safe"
Exactly - the law of averages rewards skepticism more than optimism.
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To not be high on alonso and say hats off to the kid he proved me wrong than to go out on a limb first and say you think hes legit
Generally speaking the scouting industry does not "buy" RH 1b and for the most part they are right. The list isn't long. The list doens't have to be long for Alonso to be good but it's betting on the side of recent history which seems "Safe"
You said it much better than I sir, well put
Law is known for his stubbornness in refusing to admit he was wrong. It took him several years into his career before he admitted that he was wrong on Chris Sale.
Whatever happened to Rob Neyer -- was he forced to retire in shame over his "Jose Reyes is the worst everyday player in baseball" hot take from early 2006????
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say this... Seidler takes hits for being negative and trolls attack him because of his intertwining his political views on twitter BUT he and Jeff P do attend a LOT of games. So there is some added value to them.
Whatever happened to Rob Neyer -- was he forced to retire in shame over his "Jose Reyes is the worst everyday player in baseball" hot take from early 2006????
It looks like he's just an author now
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