Eli is the best option for 2019?

Jackson has literally played 3 defenses in the bottom 5 of the league. You don't think that might factor into it?? He's averaging 12 completions a game!

And yes - the giants moves have been more productive in past years. They actually have contributing draftees and Barkley looks like a shoo-in for ROTY.

We rid teh team of locker room distractions and the team is playing competitively. They have more games within 7 points than any other team.

If talking about other teams, this would be used as a sign of an arrow pointing up, but in your biased view, Gettleman is an "embarrassment" and the team is complete dogshit.

But a Ravens team with two more wins and a mobile QB is going places.

LOL.

they have beaten Cincy, Tampa, Atlanta and the Raiders with Jackson and lost to Pittsburgh

Quote:

Haven't they won 4 of 5 with Jackson?

They beat Pittsburgh and Tennessee with Flacco.

and they are the same team. I am sorry if you dont see it. But Rivers cant move either, and would be a sitting target.

In comment 14224951 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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the Browns or Ravens or Jacksonville last year isn't what the debate is. It isn't about who looks to be best, it is about proving it. The Giants haven't done it in several years, but the moves they have made look like they are having an impact far more than the moves in years prior. Mayfield and Barkley make their teams better, which is what top draft picks should do. Now, we just need to build around Barkley and strengthen the lines. Doing that and having Eli as a placeholder is fine. Having a rookie QB is fine. The point being, strengthen the lines and we'll be a lot better, no matter who the QB is.

This is true. Give Eli an oline that protects him and lets Barkley make more plays and Eli can still win. He will still make stupid, unacceptable plays every week because for 15 years he has done the same. But when he gets in a rhythm and doesn't have to carry the load, he can still win.

In comment 14224923 Go Terps said:

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Will...a big reason Baltimore's defense is good is because Jackson is leading a run game that is averaging 230 yards per game. The Ravens are a better rushing team than we are by a lot...and we're the team that just spent the #2 pick on a RB. dep...I've never said to only draft QBs late. I'm fine drafting them in the first round. The issue I have is with paying the crazy franchise QB contract. I've said that a million times.

If the goal is to win championships the Ravens have zero shot with Jackson right now. He’s a liability in the passing game.

that Eli and the Giants will still want each other next year.

I agree that it's likely, and far more likely in Eli's case that he wants to be here, but I don't think it's a given.

When the evaluation is complete, I'm not convinced Gettleman and Shurmur endorse Eli again. Not with this past season, and especially not Shurmur with his current W/L record. Shurmur needs to start consistently winning, his resume so far is the opposite of that.

I'm sure wherever Mara is, he's in a little better shape after playing a little better football lately but there are still 2 games to go that we very likely don't win, and I'm sure 1-7 had to totally sting after what he went through last year.

As for Eli, the Giants may say, as suggested here, please be our placeholder, if they like a guy like Herbert, Haskins or Jones or whoever and perhaps Eli says thanks but no thanks and either retires or Coughlin calls.

I say it's 60/40 right now her returns but could still trend the other direction with two more lifeless performances.

In comment 14225006 WillVAB said:

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If the goal is to win championships the Ravens have zero shot with Jackson right now. He’s a liability in the passing game.

Operative word being now. What Jackson is getting now - and this is crucial for the long run - is experience. Valuable experience. You can't beat that.

He's bringing a dimension to the game the NFL hasn't seen since Michael Vick. That's what makes him and the Ravens an interesting threat if they get in. Good D and they have this unorthodox running game.

But, I agree, that will be their downfall because he will be forced to make plays with his arm to win. It's just the nature of the game. And maybe in cold or inclement weather.

I'll add this as well. If things get ugly with Jackson, they could turn to Flacco. I have never been a fan, but he's certainly been prolific at times in the playoffs. So that makes him a very interesting X factor.

In comment 14224995 dep026 said:

Quote:

and they are the same team. I am sorry if you dont see it. But Rivers cant move either, and would be a sitting target.

Rivers manipulates the pocket exceedingly better than Eli. He's just bigger and stronger. And he'll hang in there - and hang and hang and hang - allowing for plays to unfold more. He doesn't fold like a blanket when the pocket collapses, and that creates more opportunities. Indeed, he lumbers around at times like he has a piano on his back, but he somehow buys time and space and can make chicken salad. He's truly one of the oddest players I've seen at QB since Bernie Kosar. In fact, they are very much alike, but Rivers has a better arm and is bigger...

Anyway, this is getting into subjective territory. So probably not going to convince you if you can't see the obvious... ;)

In comment 14224784 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

Manning is making 23 million next year, but only counts 17.5 against the cap, in the FINAL year (big money year) of his contract. The way QB contracts have evolved since that deal was written, 23 million is not even first year money (Dak is seeking 28 million per year, just as a reference point). Now that that's out of the way, you want to draft his replacement, right? That's where this is going. So you have five years of cost controlled QB play before the above mentioned second contract of ridiculous money. Now, here's why you trot Eli out there next year: 1. You need a veteran QB on the roster if you are drafting a rookie. 2. Even signing journeymen QB's costs a good amount of money. Eli would leave 6 million or so in dead money, so you have to add that to whatever said journeyman costs, let's say we can sign one for 10 million just to throw a cheap option out there. 3. Let's go back to having a cost controlled rookie QB for five years. You need a succession plan. That would be a logical and reasonable one for the reasons I've outlined.

Britt - I don't agree with keeping Manning on the team past January but I want to compliment you on stating a rational case for having him start in 2019. It's not exactly a sunny one but it ain't a stupid one. Well done.

The thing missing from this is "Upside." I'm at a loss as to why I should follow the Giants in 2019 if they do this. Even going with three unheralded, cheap QBs that have been plucked from backup duties with other teams has the potential to eventually reap some benefits if any of them develop and show growth. The Eli option has none. It reeks of the despair of old age.

while improving the rest of the roster does not mean we are building around Eli. We are building for the future, whether Eli is here or not.

but this statement from Sy is about the most damning indictment of the selection I've read:

"NYG is in a very tough spot, no denying that. But I want to go in to 2019 with the best man available for the job while Barkley and Beckham are in the prime. Right now, other than a trade, I think that is going to be Manning."

We just had the #2 pick in the draft and, after selecting a great player, we are in a "very tough spot."

Because I like fucking around in Excel, and because there's no one in the office, I compared the Ravens' offense this year with Flacco and with Jackson. Note their W-L is 4-5 Flacco, and 4-1 with Jackson. Here's a comp:

With Flacco:

23.67 PPG, 69 plays per game, 5.30 yards/play 30:40 Avg. TOP

With Jackson:

25.6 PPG, 70.6 plays per game, 5.31 yards/play 36:12 Avg. TOP

Pointing to Jackson's number of completions per game (he's actually averaging 14 since he became the starter) doesn't accurately paint the picture of what's going on. The Ravens have shifted their pass/run ratio dramatically because Jackson can run the ball.

The threat of Jackson running the football has improved all their runners enormously. A rushing comp:

With Flacco: 3.61 yards/rush
With Jackson: 4.92 yards/rush

It's important to keep in mind that this improvement is despite opponents knowing Baltimore is going to be a heavy run-first team.

Now you would think the Ravens have lost a lot of their passing efficiency going from Flacco to Jackson. Think again:

With Flacco: 6.3 yards/pass
With Jackson: 6.1 yards/pass

Jackson has improved the run game tremendously but cost them almost nothing in the passing game.

And by the way, these are the first 5 starts of Jackson's career. This improvement is taking into consideration the learning curve you'd associate with being a rookie QB.

This isn't just to credit Jackson. It's also a credit to Harbaugh and his coaching staff for playing to their strengths.

In comment 14225037 cosmicj said:

Quote:

In comment 14224784 Britt in VA said: Quote: Manning is making 23 million next year, but only counts 17.5 against the cap, in the FINAL year (big money year) of his contract. The way QB contracts have evolved since that deal was written, 23 million is not even first year money (Dak is seeking 28 million per year, just as a reference point). Now that that's out of the way, you want to draft his replacement, right? That's where this is going. So you have five years of cost controlled QB play before the above mentioned second contract of ridiculous money. Now, here's why you trot Eli out there next year: 1. You need a veteran QB on the roster if you are drafting a rookie. 2. Even signing journeymen QB's costs a good amount of money. Eli would leave 6 million or so in dead money, so you have to add that to whatever said journeyman costs, let's say we can sign one for 10 million just to throw a cheap option out there. 3. Let's go back to having a cost controlled rookie QB for five years. You need a succession plan. That would be a logical and reasonable one for the reasons I've outlined. Britt - I don't agree with keeping Manning on the team past January but I want to compliment you on stating a rational case for having him start in 2019. It's not exactly a sunny one but it ain't a stupid one. Well done. The thing missing from this is "Upside." I'm at a loss as to why I should follow the Giants in 2019 if they do this. Even going with three unheralded, cheap QBs that have been plucked from backup duties with other teams has the potential to eventually reap some benefits if any of them develop and show growth. The Eli option has none. It reeks of the despair of old age.

There is no upside. It's between keeping Eli and a lateral move at the position, at best, for similar cap hit.

There are other options besides a vet or Eli.

Our QB play will be a liability next year whether that is Eli, a rookie or a QB that everybody on this board will say is a bum. But I would make a change. We have a bottom third roster while being in the bottom third in cap health. That is something you can actually start to fix. People keep throwing out the obvious names like Foles and Bridgewater, and others are right in that it makes no sense cap wise, but I think the Giants are better served aiming at the 2nd tier. You're only looking for a stopgap.

See who is available at the 3-6m/yr range, whether that is Tyrod, Fitzpatrick or a trade for Beathard (depending on comp). Personally, I'd be looking at Trevor Siemian in the 3m/yr range. People will wince but Eli with another year of regression isn't a significant upgrade over any experienced backup, he's a low end starter. I'd take Siemann and 14m in net savings over Eli. That money covers Matt Paradis and another depth player, or it covers Daryl Williams. If there isn't a player worth spending on, roll that over for when we need it. In what is a transition year, Siemann's perfectly capable of running a Shurmur dink and dunk offense with a fortified OL (aided by cap savings) that runs through Barkley. 23m/yr is overkill on a stopgap unless you think we have a legitimate chance of making a run...I don't.

Basically, we won't have good QB play next year, both Eli supporters and haters need to accept that. I'd prefer they focused on getting their cap situation right.

In comment 14225057 cosmicj said:

Quote:

There are other options besides a vet or Eli.

Upside is a relative term. Competitively, I think Eli gives us a more competitive advantage than a Josh McCown, Sam Bradford type.

Eli will put more butts in the seats. It will give the fans that like him something to root for in the meantime.

For people that don't like Eli, or are sick of seeing him and just want to turn the page so to say... Well there is no upside.

Quote:

There is no upside. It's between keeping Eli and a lateral move at the position, at best, for similar cap hit.

There are numerous low cost options at QB that are out there if the Giants are willing to make a trade or just stand pat with Lauletta.

2019 cap hit

Lauletta - $570K
Jacoby Brissett - $900K
Kyle Sloter - $645K

And why not contact teams about any of the following:

DeShone Kizer
Mason Rudolph
Josh Dobbs
Jeff Driskel
Taysom Hill
Nick Mullens

Every single one of these guys is making peanuts. They all either exhibit promise or did at some point. Any would be a better option than paying a 38 year old non-elite QB $23M in cap space to go 5-11 again.

In comment 14225037 cosmicj said:

Quote:

In comment 14224784 Britt in VA said: Quote: Manning is making 23 million next year, but only counts 17.5 against the cap, in the FINAL year (big money year) of his contract. The way QB contracts have evolved since that deal was written, 23 million is not even first year money (Dak is seeking 28 million per year, just as a reference point). Now that that's out of the way, you want to draft his replacement, right? That's where this is going. So you have five years of cost controlled QB play before the above mentioned second contract of ridiculous money. Now, here's why you trot Eli out there next year: 1. You need a veteran QB on the roster if you are drafting a rookie. 2. Even signing journeymen QB's costs a good amount of money. Eli would leave 6 million or so in dead money, so you have to add that to whatever said journeyman costs, let's say we can sign one for 10 million just to throw a cheap option out there. 3. Let's go back to having a cost controlled rookie QB for five years. You need a succession plan. That would be a logical and reasonable one for the reasons I've outlined. Britt - I don't agree with keeping Manning on the team past January but I want to compliment you on stating a rational case for having him start in 2019. It's not exactly a sunny one but it ain't a stupid one. Well done. The thing missing from this is "Upside." I'm at a loss as to why I should follow the Giants in 2019 if they do this. Even going with three unheralded, cheap QBs that have been plucked from backup duties with other teams has the potential to eventually reap some benefits if any of them develop and show growth. The Eli option has none. It reeks of the despair of old age.

Upside is the key for me.

and a good presence in the huddle, lockerroom, and film room.

In comment 14225063 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Quote: There is no upside. It's between keeping Eli and a lateral move at the position, at best, for similar cap hit. There are numerous low cost options at QB that are out there if the Giants are willing to make a trade or just stand pat with Lauletta. 2019 cap hit Lauletta - $570K Jacoby Brissett - $900K Kyle Sloter - $645K And why not contact teams about any of the following: DeShone Kizer Mason Rudolph Josh Dobbs Jeff Driskel Taysom Hill Nick Mullens Every single one of these guys is making peanuts. They all either exhibit promise or did at some point. Any would be a better option than paying a 38 year old non-elite QB $23M in cap space to go 5-11 again.

Yup. Plenty more options than just Foles or Bridgewater.

In comment 14225063 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Quote: There is no upside. It's between keeping Eli and a lateral move at the position, at best, for similar cap hit. There are numerous low cost options at QB that are out there if the Giants are willing to make a trade or just stand pat with Lauletta. 2019 cap hit Lauletta - $570K Jacoby Brissett - $900K Kyle Sloter - $645K And why not contact teams about any of the following: DeShone Kizer Mason Rudolph Josh Dobbs Jeff Driskel Taysom Hill Nick Mullens Every single one of these guys is making peanuts. They all either exhibit promise or did at some point. Any would be a better option than paying a 38 year old non-elite QB $23M in cap space to go 5-11 again.

Brisset is an UFA after 2019. Sloter an RFA after 2019. So your brilliant plan is to trade assets for one of these lottery tickets, hope they are the real deal, and then sign them to a big money deal?

I think he got absolutely shafted in Cleveland. I would be way more optimistic about a Giants team that took a flyer on him than abandoning all hope and going with Eli. Maybe it wouldn't work, but there is a chance that he would develop into a quality starter.

Great Post
dep026 : 12:14 pm : link : reply

A new thread was definitely needed

And then develops into an interesting debate with both sides making good points.

In comment 14225076 cosmicj said:

Quote:

Great Post dep026 : 12:14 pm : link : reply A new thread was definitely needed And then develops into an interesting debate with both sides making good points.

All of this could have been said and already has been said in other threads.

In comment 14225066 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

and a good presence in the huddle, lockerroom, and film room.

Kinda like Jonathan Stewart.

Why post? Why even debate issues facing our favorite team? Eeyore time.

It says something when even the Eli advocates seem to be depressed at the road they propose.

In comment 14225079 mrvax said:

Quote:

In comment 14225066 Britt in VA said: Quote: and a good presence in the huddle, lockerroom, and film room. Kinda like Jonathan Stewart.

Is it?

Did he already know the offense this year?

Jonathan Stewart in calling the plays in the huddle, reading the defense, and trying to get the offense in the right plays?

Is Jonathan Stewart a well regarded Film Room guy who helps the other players on offense see what's happening on film?

I guess I'll give you lockerroom presence?

In comment 14225021 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14225006 WillVAB said: Quote: If the goal is to win championships the Ravens have zero shot with Jackson right now. He’s a liability in the passing game. Operative word being now. What Jackson is getting now - and this is crucial for the long run - is experience. Valuable experience. You can't beat that. He's bringing a dimension to the game the NFL hasn't seen since Michael Vick. That's what makes him and the Ravens an interesting threat if they get in. Good D and they have this unorthodox running game. But, I agree, that will be their downfall because he will be forced to make plays with his arm to win. It's just the nature of the game. And maybe in cold or inclement weather. I'll add this as well. If things get ugly with Jackson, they could turn to Flacco. I have never been a fan, but he's certainly been prolific at times in the playoffs. So that makes him a very interesting X factor.

QBs like Jackson are a dime a dozen now. Look around the league.

Looking to the future, the edge is finding an elite passer who can stay healthy.

Blah.

Why not?

Let's say we trade for Brissett. What will it cost? A second rounder? Maybe a third considering we're picking high? Don't we have two or three fourth round picks?

Trade for Brissett and play him in 2019. We have the inside track to re-sign him if we want, and unless he has a crazy year it could be a show-me type contract. And if he plays well enough to get the stupid Garoppolo type contract on the open market, fine. We get a comp pick in return.

And in the meantime we got the $17M in cap space for releasing Eli.

?

In comment 14225063 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Quote: There is no upside. It's between keeping Eli and a lateral move at the position, at best, for similar cap hit. There are numerous low cost options at QB that are out there if the Giants are willing to make a trade or just stand pat with Lauletta. 2019 cap hit Lauletta - $570K Jacoby Brissett - $900K Kyle Sloter - $645K And why not contact teams about any of the following: DeShone Kizer Mason Rudolph Josh Dobbs Jeff Driskel Taysom Hill Nick Mullens Every single one of these guys is making peanuts. They all either exhibit promise or did at some point. Any would be a better option than paying a 38 year old non-elite QB $23M in cap space to go 5-11 again.

Agree 100%

In comment 14225088 Go Terps said:

Quote:

?

Look around the league. There’s zero edge w a guy like Jackson as your franchise QB. There’s carbon copies like Marriotta and better versions like Wilson.

The “keeping up with the Jones’s” strategy is not innovative or forward thinking.

I posted the QBs who have been hurt over the last two years and it’s over half the league’s starting QBs. The overwhelming majority of those QBs were mobile ones, including Jackson.

If you want to be innovative or separate yourself from the herd, find an elite passer who knows how to protect himself. Find a QB who doesn’t have to hold onto the ball forever to find receivers and make plays.

You talk about wanting an innovative GM and HC but then you advocate getting a QB who’s just like 25 other starting QBs around the league. Yawn.

if you are looking for a franchise QB, they aren't the answer:

Quote:

If QBs like Jackson are a dime a dozen, then why don't we have one Go Terps : 3:18 pm : link : reply ?

I don't even know why you are arguing this. Isn't your preferred model to stock up on mobile QB's that are cheap and interchangeable? Doesn't that by definition indicate they are a dime a dozen?

with an antiquated quarterback, and people here are advocating for the status quo.

as you put it has had just as much representation in Championship games in the past decade than the other model.

Granted, Brady represents a big chunk of it, but still.

Vick was a much better passer than Jackson and he struggled to both stay on the field and win in the playoffs

If I read the numbers right (please correct me if I'm wrong), Eli's contract + roster bonus comes to $16.5 m. If we cut him, we get hit with $6.2 m of the prorated signing bonus. Which means we'll dave $10.3 m. Does anyone think we can sign a decent vet for less than that? There are some lesser qb's who will want a lot more. Are there any draftable qb's who you think can step in as a rookie and do better?

In comment 14225084 WillVAB said:

Quote:

QBs like Jackson are a dime a dozen now. Look around the league. Looking to the future, the edge is finding an elite passer who can stay healthy.

Dime a dozen? Who else playing QB in the NFL has Jackson's track-type speed and quickness? Again, I agree that he needs to greatly improve his passing but Jackson's running skills are not ordinary and it's odd to suggest so. You can't teach that. He's a real threat.

Uh, okay - I guess re: the edge is finding an elite passer who can stay healthy. That's been a need for 50+ years in the NFL.

I guess you are saying Jackson can't get better and will only be a running threat. So we should suspend any idea of him getting better...

are mostly what CFB is churning out. So either A)adapt or B)die metaphorically as a franchise.

For a Tua or Fromm in 2020, Eli is probably your best option.

In comment 14224816 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

For those that want him gone...who is the replacement? Bridgewater? Taylor? Brissett? Flacco? Do you really think its worth bringing in one of them to learn a new system playing behind this OL? A rookie? Who? Where is NYG drafting? How do you ensure he will be available when NYG is on the clock? The only thing I would consider strongly right now is trading for Carr (OAK). And I wouldn't give more than a 2nd round pick for him.

Sy - Would you really trade for Carr with his contract? Spotrac has his cap hit at $22.5, $21.5, $22.1 and $19.9 the next 4 years. I live near Oakland and it’s been a terrible last 2 seasons for him. Granted this year has been impacted a lack of quality receivers and the turmoil of trading Mack. But he appears to have regressed a lot.

+1.

I mean, c'mon people. You need all your chits for D and OL.

Think 2020.

.

.. equals 4-6 wins tops.

In comment 14225126 Go Terps said:

Quote:

with an antiquated quarterback, and people here are advocating for the status quo.

The “antiquated model” is what wins championships.

Look at the hottest teams entering the playoffs and the talking head favorites to represent the NFC and AFC this year.

Look at the Saints right now. They aren’t winning with Brees scrambling and rushing for 100 yards a game. They’re winning with defense, solid QB play, and a traditional running game.

He's nothing close to just a game manager.

And even then, Payton is incorporating Taysom Hill as a mobile QB into the offense.

Eli Manning is not playing near Brees's level. If you know who the next Brees is in this upcoming draft class, please by all means identify him so we can move accordingly.

It's a good thing college football is producing all these Brees-level pocket QBs.

In comment 14225387 Go Terps said:

Quote:

And even then, Payton is incorporating Taysom Hill as a mobile QB into the offense. Eli Manning is not playing near Brees's level. If you know who the next Brees is in this upcoming draft class, please by all means identify him so we can move accordingly. It's a good thing college football is producing all these Brees-level pocket QBs.

Brees has been pedestrian for the last 3-4 weeks.

Their D has been elite for the last 6-7 weeks.

There’s no discernible difference between Jackson and the other 20 starting QBs who play a similar game. If you asked 100 NFL people to rank Cam, Marriotta, Wentz, Jackson, Allen, Watson, Darnold, Trubisky, on and on you’d get 100 different rankings. It’s a watered down position and there’s no edge to following suit. These QBs come out every year. Add Herbert and Haskins to the indistinguishable Mobile oft injured QB club next year.

The time will come to move on from Eli, but it doesn’t make sense to force it.

The edge is finding elite pass rushers.

The edge is building a quality OL, since the college game isn’t producing as many quality players and teams are over paying to keep quality OL.

The edge is finding an accurate, clutch, passer who can stay healthy.

Marriotta’s and Jackson’s are coming out every year now. Following suit just ensures mediocrity for another 10 years.

In comment 14225369 silverfox said:

Quote:

.. equals 4-6 wins tops.

Sign me up. I want Fromm in 2020.