| “It’s about winning and I’ve seen someone told one of the reporters I’m in the teardown,’’ Gettleman said recently. “We’re not spending $62.5 million on Nate Solder, spending the money on [28-year-old guard] Patrick Omameh, we’re not trading for Alec Ogletree. If it’s a teardown, we’re not doing that. We evaluated the roster, we’ve developed a plan moving forward. It’s about winning now. Who wants to lose? I don’t.’’ |
I saw this on twitter today - link to article below. A lot of people say this wasn’t a “win now” year or philosophy. I keep seeing the point of “60 percent roster turnover”. This quote says a lot & they are staring down 5-11.
Link - (
New Window )
Of course I addressed it:
I most definitely think that a guy who has been on the staff of 9 SB teams is good.
You think it is "reasonable" that he isn't good, but for what reasons? Did you not see the roster that he inherited and the trainwreck of drafts in the past decade?
I really wonder - what the fuck did you expect. and that's an honest question - because the expectations are severely out of whack of what you should be expecting with the roster we had.
Ok, I think that's a fair point. I don't agree that 5 wins is much improved, and I think this team is in for a long ride to replace the most important position in the game. I think the minimal improvement are bad signs headed forward.
We aren't a good team, but we aren't the disaster that last year was by any stretch.
Gettleman can't fix it in 1 offseason. Literally impossible to do unless you have a great QB, and our QB sucks.
They were all in on Eli and the plan to execute that has been an epic fail.
The owner wanted Eli to still be the QB. The GM was selected to make that work. The coach was hired because he just demonstrated QB CPR on Keenum. And Eli was provided a new oline, a re-signed top 5 WR, and a prolific, generational RB.
Of course I addressed it:
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I'm suggesting he just might not be that good. I think that's reasonable, don't you?
I most definitely think that a guy who has been on the staff of 9 SB teams is good.
You think it is "reasonable" that he isn't good, but for what reasons? Did you not see the roster that he inherited and the trainwreck of drafts in the past decade?
I really wonder - what the fuck did you expect. and that's an honest question - because the expectations are severely out of whack of what you should be expecting with the roster we had.
What I expected was an honest evaluation of a franchise that's been bad for a long time. What I read in the press was a GM and franchise as a whole insinuating that this team was close to returning as a contender. I saw a GM on draft night laughing at the idea of trading back or selecting the next potential franchise qb. Then I see another iteration of a team heading toward yet another double digit loss season and I get told I'm crazy when I think a lot of poor choices were made in the offseason.
Listen, you seem very knowledgeable, I think if you read my past posts you will see I am as well. I just don't see how you can be happy with the direction of a team that has no qb of the future on the roster and no discernable pass rush (among several other areas). Now, maybe that all gets solved in the next two seasons and I can join the rest of you in optimism land. And trust me, prior to last season I was as optimistic in Giants world as it came. For now, I am not going to be deliriously happy with Barkley putting up some stats and calling it another year of progress.
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i think you are missing my point entirely. My point was, IF we had 0 wins, everyone would blame Gettleman. We currently have 5 and the team is clearly much improved in terms of locker room and players...and everyone blames Gettleman. Do you see now?
Ok, I think that's a fair point. I don't agree that 5 wins is much improved, and I think this team is in for a long ride to replace the most important position in the game. I think the minimal improvement are bad signs headed forward.
Yes because QBs grow on trees and can be easily found and replaced.
Every franchise struggles to find a suitable QB. How many QBs have the Jets and Brown and Bill taken?
It wasn't a miscalculation of the roster. He miscalculated RT and RG and OC. Those three positions killed the season before it got started. Once he worked those out he has achieved much better success. To condemn the entire roster when the blame falls solidly on the right side of the line is a worse assessment than DG made.
I swear it is like nobody even cares how things went down in Carolina. They think that the giants called and he is a yes man to some Mandate handed down by the owner. It flies in the face of his entire career, yet it is repeated here on a near daily basis
I eagerly await your epiphany when it hits you that what you mock indeed happened.
And you always categorize it as if the mandate was a hard, code red.
It was likely softer and more measured.
For example, play along -
"Ernie, I think Eli still exhibits the qualities we need to be successful. With better coaching and more talent, we can get the best out of Eli again. And frankly, I think it's important that he finishes up as a Giant.
So I'd like to find a GM and coach who feel similarly. Create a team with that mission and execute."
Why is that not possible?
That's an entirely separate topic. Of course I'm not happy with the past several years. But that's different than going off the rails about some Mandate from ownership on building around eli, about a sham of a GM search and this whole concept of going "all in" while we've turned the roster over 60% and swapped out half of the starters. It doesn't compute.
I can say this - the GM seems to have hit on his evaluation of Barkley. We are seeing a team competing in nearly every game and who has the most games within 7 points in the league. That is improvement.
I don't know if Shurmur is the guy, but the GM certainly seems to have the self awareness to cut bait when a player isn't working out.
It seems to me too that many posters blur the lines here. Gettleman has done a massive overhaul in one season, yet he's lumped in with Reese on these rants, like he's staying pat. Then there are the ridiculous comments that he's forced to keep Eli - which goes against his entire body of work as an executive.
I can both be unhappy with the last several seasons and also think that posters who are just bitching aimlessly are pretty moronic. One can be disappointed and still not come off like a lunatic detached from reality.
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But clearly there was a gross miscalculation of this roster.
It wasn't a miscalculation of the roster. He miscalculated RT and RG and OC. Those three positions killed the season before it got started. Once he worked those out he has achieved much better success. To condemn the entire roster when the blame falls solidly on the right side of the line is a worse assessment than DG made.
What about FS, OLB and slot corner. We still can't cover the middle of the field. Basically we had all these holes. Did he fill any of them other than drafting the biggest slam dunk of a player to come along in a while with the #2 pick?
Can you tell me any weakness we had last year that he did improve on?
Oh yeah and what about a backup QB. You know we have this 38 year old QB at the most important position and apparently not even anyone promising enough brought in to merit junk time.
Is it possible this could get better? Absolutely. But to anyone acting like we have evidence to believe that is the case, that's insanity. This year was not a good job, plain and simple.
No, it's more like:
"Boo hoo, we passed up several QB prospects to draft a RB that was touched by the hand of God, but he hasn't made our team any better."
It's not going to happen overnight.
Round and round we go.
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No, it's more like:
"Boo hoo, we passed up several QB prospects to draft a RB that was touched by the hand of God, but he hasn't made our team any better."
The offense is significantly better. Defense still sucks balls. Though last time I checked, he's not a two way player...
Please help explain what the plan should have been if they weren't all wrong about Eli? Draft a QB no matter who? Does anyone really believe that is the right course of action?
Again, why is this something being used to defend management with?
Instead of just saying "i'm concerned about Shurmur but i have faith in Gettleman" or things of the like.
Shouldn't we be very concerned that that last two coaches we have hired look completely over-matched for the position they were put in?
And the 2nd one we hired was a re-tread who looked like he couldn't handle the role the first time. What exactly should make us confident in the leadership of this organization when that happens? Why can't they seem to get something as basic as hiring a head coach correctly?
In the first 8 games we scored fewer than 20 points 5 times. Are we supposed to be impressed because we scored some points against teams with backup QBs that had to chase games after gifting us first quarter pick sixes? By the time that even happened the season was over.
I'm supposed to give a shit about scoring 40 points against a dead Redskins team when the Titans just shut us out at home and pushed us around like we were the JV?
I am bewildered by the sentiments of the people here saying that "the arrow is pointing up" and/or "let's give these guys X years to turn it around". Truly bewildered.
I feel like Chrissy in the Sopranos when Tony is hemming and hawing on killing Vito because he has no proof he's actually gay.
I don't know how much more proof people need to see the situation for what it is.
"So what do we gotta do, Ton? Actually see him take it in the ass?" - ( New Window )
40 points? Pfffff, didn't draft a QB.
30 points 3 times which we couldn't do in over two years? pffff, didn't draft a QB
2000 yards from scrimmage and 15 plus TD's, rookie of the year? pffffff, didn't draft a QB.
God damn man, we f-cking get it already.
The offense is not a finished product by any means, but simply dismissing facts that don't fit your narrative is disingenuous. By any measure, this offense is better now that it was last year, by a pretty wide margin.
40 points? Pfffff, didn't draft a QB.
30 points 3 times which we couldn't do in over two years? pffff, didn't draft a QB
2000 yards from scrimmage and 15 plus TD's, rookie of the year? pffffff, didn't draft a QB.
God damn man, we f-cking get it already.
You clearly don't get it, and you haven't for a while.
You've more or less had your finger on the pulse of what the Giants are going to do, yes. And what they do continues to be wrong.
You are unhinged over one player, and the early returns on any of the QB's we passed on aren't exactly setting the world on fire.
Success on offense and defense within the first half the season, no time for any growing pains, and...
Answers to all the holes on the roster, without any mistakes made in FA or the draft, and...
The 15-year solution to the most difficult position to solve (QB) is in place, and...
Only saying things to the press which sound amazing to certain fans, and...
Not having anything to do with anyone in this organization over the last 30 years or so, certainly not since the Giants began winning SB's.
Didn't all that happen? Then it's a failure and the sooner we can FIRE the current staff and find the guys who can execute the above the better.
Names? I'm not sure who, but we need someone better, that's for damn sure.
Speaking of Mahomes, where did he go in the draft? Any QB's go before him? What spot?
There will be other chances to get a QB.
Please help explain what the plan should have been if they weren't all wrong about Eli? Draft a QB no matter who? Does anyone really believe that is the right course of action?
It's exhausting going into why I think keeping Eli was a mistake. Essentially it was Mara being embarrassed how the organization dealt with GenoGate. And then not recognizing that he's on the wrong side of the production curve.
So, as stated scores of times, and it would have been an easy decision. I would have gone the QB route - I'm not sure it matters who anymore - and either (a) start the rookie right away or (b) keep Eli and slowly work the new QB in. B gets tricky because of timing, but I could have tolerated it.
In other words, I would have been less concerned about the record this year, and more interested in developing the next QB. That experience is invaluable. And that would have set us up better for the future - and at a quicker pace.
Furthermore, I prescribe to the notion that RBs are very easy to find. The examples are endless in the league. So I think there were other solutions besides Barkley. Not of Barkley's total skill set, but at least 85-90%. And that is more than good enough in today's NFL.
You just hate to admit being wrong about anything. And G-d forbid you ever move off your narratives...
You could look at that as should we be excited about Barkley. Absolutely i'm excited about Barkley!
But shouldn't we also be concerned about managements ability to surround him with talent?
You are a big Eli guy right? Maybe i'm confusing you with someone else.
Aren't you pissed off that our leadership squandered some prime years of one of the great clutch QBs? Aren't you concerned about us doing the same thing with Saquon?
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You realize he was the only viable NFL QB on the roster when they took over, right? So if they didn't draft a QB in the first round, you know they thought he was the solution...how? Did it occur to you that maybe they didn't like any of the QBs coming out in the draft? Or maybe they liked them, but just liked Barkley more? But maybe they should have forced the pick because then they wouldn't be "all in" on Eli?
Please help explain what the plan should have been if they weren't all wrong about Eli? Draft a QB no matter who? Does anyone really believe that is the right course of action?
It's exhausting going into why I think keeping Eli was a mistake. Essentially it was Mara being embarrassed how the organization dealt with GenoGate. And then not recognizing that he's on the wrong side of the production curve.
So, as stated scores of times, and it would have been an easy decision. I would have gone the QB route - I'm not sure it matters who anymore - and either (a) start the rookie right away or (b) keep Eli and slowly work the new QB in. B gets tricky because of timing, but I could have tolerated it.
In other words, I would have been less concerned about the record this year, and more interested in developing the next QB. That experience is invaluable. And that would have set us up better for the future - and at a quicker pace.
Furthermore, I prescribe to the notion that RBs are very easy to find. The examples are endless in the league. So I think there were other solutions besides Barkley. Not of Barkley's total skill set, but at least 85-90%. And that is more than good enough in today's NFL.
How many guys have 85-90% of what Barkley has?
I know you think I'm miserable, but I'm really not. It's the team that's miserable. I don't kid myself about it like so many here choose to. And that's their right...like you said the other day this isn't life and death.
You're 100% correct. It isn't life and death. That's why I'm OK accepting the truth that the Giants are currently a badly run, badly constructed, directionless mess of an organization.
I'm OK accepting that because it isn't the end of the world. Lots of you guys though are living in a fantasy world because you can't handle criticizing the organization, criticizing Mara, criticizing the front office, criticizing Shurmur, criticizing Eli, and on and on.
You guys kid yourselves, all the while the losses keep piling up.
Secondly, yes, I'm mad at the front office for squandering Eli's prime, which started back in 2011.
But squandering Saquon's prime? Geez man, he hasn't even played a season yet and we're already squandering his prime?
The GM and Head Coach haven't even completed ONE YEAR yet. They replaced 2/3 of the roster in ONE OFFSEASON. Can't we give them a little more time to build a new roster? Basically from scratch save for like a handful of players?
Samiam : 5:22 pm : link : reply
Not a loaded question but how did it go down in Charlotte? I know he was fired but it seemed like he was doing ok before that. Is there a story here?
He had Richardson's backing when he cut Norman and didn't bring back DeAngelo Williams or Steve Smith.
But he started putting out feelers to trade Olsen and Davis and Richardson put his foot down. Gettleman was told that those two were not to be traded, released or restructured. The reported exchange had richardson tellin Gettleman "Just do your damn job", to which Gettleman reportedly replied, "I can't under those circumstances". He was terminated the next day.
This is why it is completely unbelievable to me that he was given a mandate to build around Eli. I have a historical context to point to. Those insinuating he has a mandate are pointing to a steaming pile of horseshit.
I know you think I'm miserable, but I'm really not. It's the team that's miserable. I don't kid myself about it like so many here choose to. And that's their right...like you said the other day this isn't life and death.
You're 100% correct. It isn't life and death. That's why I'm OK accepting the truth that the Giants are currently a badly run, badly constructed, directionless mess of an organization.
I'm OK accepting that because it isn't the end of the world. Lots of you guys though are living in a fantasy world because you can't handle criticizing the organization, criticizing Mara, criticizing the front office, criticizing Shurmur, criticizing Eli, and on and on.
You guys kid yourselves, all the while the losses keep piling up.
Not many people will (or have) argue the results haven't been poor. Practically everyone agrees there is plenty of blame to go around.
But to sit there and say there have not been any improvements over last year is simply dumb.
DG isn't going to overturn this thing in one season. He's made more good moves than bad - and even when he's made bad moves, he tries to correct them sooner rather than later (Omaneh).
But you sit there and continue to berate the Giants for not doing the things the way YOU want them to do. And you don't give them credit for anything positive that's happened.
DG has a plan. It might work, or it could be JR part 2. But just because it's not what you would do, it's not automatically doomed to fail.
DG has slightly more experience at this then you do.
I agree the Giants are a poorly run franchise, and there is plenty to criticize about Mara. But not picking a QB is not a symptom of that problem at all.
We are seeing a team competing in nearly every game and who has the most games within 7 points in the league. That is improvement.
Is that not precisely the same stat that they used to justify firing Coughlin? Most games in the league that could be called 'close losses'.
Secondly, yes, I'm mad at the front office for squandering Eli's prime, which started back in 2011.
But squandering Saquon's prime? Geez man, he hasn't even played a season yet and we're already squandering his prime?
The GM and Head Coach haven't even completed ONE YEAR yet. They replaced 2/3 of the roster in ONE OFFSEASON. Can't we give them a little more time to build a new roster? Basically from scratch save for like a handful of players?
The problem I have as I talked about on the other Gettlemen thread we have going is that the staff and scouting is largely the same people. There was a reason we needed to turn over so much of the roster and it was because we did not have good talent evaluation. There have been some serious blunders with Stewart and Omameh. Solder was more concerning from a self analysis perspective, if they really understood how far away we were from winning you don't bring in a player like Solder and certainly not at that price.
And the problem isn't just that it's the fact that while other teams are modernizing we don't seem to care about that or hire anyone internal that has any kind of modern technical knowledge or data architecture experience.
I don't know if you've read this thread yet but I took a lot of time to elaborate on these concepts and I think it is important that fans of this team are at least aware that we don't have any valid evidence that this isn't a mounting problem.
Ownership and analytics debate - ( New Window )
They don't need to follow my plan to be successful...there are many ways to skin a cat. They just need to have A plan. To this point their actions, and Gettleman's words noted in the thread starter, tell me their plan was to try to win now and they completely misevaluated their roster. Not only that, they misevaluated their coach, who can only be described as an abject failure in year one. The only defense that has been mounted for him is a shabby one: "They're still playing hard for him." Did that look like a team playing hard on Sunday? Didn't to me...they looked like they couldn't wait to get out of the rain.
I'm sorry that criticism of the Giants is tough for you to take. I really am.
But it might be time to wake the fuck up already.
Give them a chance, at least.
Speaking of Mahomes, where did he go in the draft? Any QB's go before him? What spot?
There will be other chances to get a QB.
Using Mahomes as the argument is loaded.
A) He's with a fine coach that's proven to get the most from his QBs. Yes, significantly more so than Pat Shurmur.
B) He needed a year on the bench
C) He's playing at a league MVP conversation level. The whole league underestimated his talent.
D) You're asking a GM who has never had the responsibility to draft a potential QB1 to go find one. We don't actually have any idea if even can. Most GMs in the NFL never do.
I agree the Giants are a poorly run franchise, and there is plenty to criticize about Mara. But not picking a QB is not a symptom of that problem at all.
I’m aware of the risks. Further, unlike other posters, I accept that there is no sure thing in that selection of a QB. But this past year was worth the stretch because of the quality and quantity. And under the circumstances with Eli, the timing to draft a QB was perfect.
So we were on a collision course for another double digit loss season with Eli. Or we could played a rookie, got valuable experience, and likely have a similar record. Which outcome honestly would have been more beneficial for this team?
But because of ONE single draft pick/player, you've gone the polar opposite extreme and unleashed hell on them.
Does that seem rational?