| “It’s about winning and I’ve seen someone told one of the reporters I’m in the teardown,’’ Gettleman said recently. “We’re not spending $62.5 million on Nate Solder, spending the money on [28-year-old guard] Patrick Omameh, we’re not trading for Alec Ogletree. If it’s a teardown, we’re not doing that. We evaluated the roster, we’ve developed a plan moving forward. It’s about winning now. Who wants to lose? I don’t.’’ |
I saw this on twitter today - link to article below. A lot of people say this wasn’t a “win now” year or philosophy. I keep seeing the point of “60 percent roster turnover”. This quote says a lot & they are staring down 5-11.
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He had Richardson's backing when he cut Norman and didn't bring back DeAngelo Williams or Steve Smith.
But he started putting out feelers to trade Olsen and Davis and Richardson put his foot down. Gettleman was told that those two were not to be traded, released or restructured. The reported exchange had richardson tellin Gettleman "Just do your damn job", to which Gettleman reportedly replied, "I can't under those circumstances". He was terminated the next day.
This is why it is completely unbelievable to me that he was given a mandate to build around Eli. I have a historical context to point to. Those insinuating he has a mandate are pointing to a steaming pile of horseshit.
Thanks FMiC.
But because of ONE single draft pick/player, you've gone the polar opposite extreme and unleashed hell on them.
Does that seem rational?
I absolutely would not give them a pass on everything. Drafting Darnold wouldn't solve or excuse Shurmur's ineptitude. It wouldn't excuse the sham GM "search" that saw Gettleman get here in the first place. It wouldn't excuse Gettleman's misses in FA, or his proud "old school" mentality. It wouldn't excuse this awful coaching staff assembled under Shurmur.
This isn't just about the Barkley pick. I keep telling you that.
They don't need to follow my plan to be successful...there are many ways to skin a cat. They just need to have A plan. To this point their actions, and Gettleman's words noted in the thread starter, tell me their plan was to try to win now and they completely misevaluated their roster. Not only that, they misevaluated their coach, who can only be described as an abject failure in year one. The only defense that has been mounted for him is a shabby one: "They're still playing hard for him." Did that look like a team playing hard on Sunday? Didn't to me...they looked like they couldn't wait to get out of the rain.
I'm sorry that criticism of the Giants is tough for you to take. I really am.
But it might be time to wake the fuck up already.
It's hard for me to take because of your fucking stubborness. They have A plan; you just don't happen to like it so it doesn't count.
Practically EVERY team in the NFL is in a win-now mode (except perhaps OAK, I haven't a clue of what Gruden is trying to do over there). I said this in another thread - but the turn arounds in the NFL from year to year happen a lot; most recently the Rams. Fans - and other "experts"- were all set to run Goff out of town. Then they went from 4-12 to 11-5.
Not saying the NYG have a similar roster to what the Rams had and can have that kind of improvement. Clearly they don't, and can't.
We are all painfully aware of the last 7 seasons,and are all pissed. But there is a new guy running things; a guy who has had a ton of success. So I'm willing to give him more than 9 months to try and fix things before killing him.
Guess I'm crazy like that.
It wouldn't excuse Gettleman's misses in FA,
And yet, you don't give him credit for any successes. Or the barkley pick
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would give them a pass on everything if they had drafted Darnold. You admitted you would preach patience with the roster and to give them a chance.
But because of ONE single draft pick/player, you've gone the polar opposite extreme and unleashed hell on them.
Does that seem rational?
I absolutely would not give them a pass on everything. Drafting Darnold wouldn't solve or excuse Shurmur's ineptitude. It wouldn't excuse the sham GM "search" that saw Gettleman get here in the first place. It wouldn't excuse Gettleman's misses in FA, or his proud "old school" mentality. It wouldn't excuse this awful coaching staff assembled under Shurmur.
Tired of your sham search diatribes.
2. Give Eli a dynamic weapon in the backfield who can run the ball & catch the ball & sign Beckham long term.
3. Secure a LT & RG via FA. Draft a LG - rebuild the OL.
4. Trade for a potential defensive leader in Ogletree
5. Spend a 2019 3rd round pick on Sam Beal who can help the roster this year.
6. All this while hiring a HC who has some prior experience & is a safe choice off of McAdoo who was very rough around the edges with regard to the media.
It’s clear, this was an attempt to retool on the fly with Eli in place. It’s easy to see - look at the Saints, Chargers & Steelers. The issue is Eli hasn’t played well enough.
I will say a positive is the fact that Gettleman hasn’t been shy to cut bait with Flowers & Omameh. Trading Apple & Snacks was also smart.
What annoys me is the amount of people who can’t st admit that the plan has failed. “60% roster turnover” for example, that explanation doesn’t make 5-9 okay. It just means DG has flipped the roster which includes a lot of high priced players which hasn’t worked. Yes, DG flipped the roster, but the results suck.
Will this front office realize that the plan has failed or will they just keep kicking the can down the road with Eli because there is no other option?
Why are we watching a head coach that can't manage his fucking timeouts? Why are we probably entering 2019 with a forked 38 year old QB at a $23M price tag a year after the best QB draft in years? Why don't we have a pass rush? Why are our special teams a joke? Why does our team show no attention to detail whatsoever? Why are we 32nd in the NFL in rushing attempts (and 12th in pass attempts) when we have a 38 year old statue at QB, a terrible pass blocking OL, and just spent a #2 pick on a talented RB?
I've said this before...we know what it looks like when a bad team is well coached and losing simply because they lack talent. That is not what is happening here.
This season has been utterly shambolic. A couple wins after a pathetic 1-7 start don't change that.
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Fat Man
Samiam : 5:22 pm : link : reply
Not a loaded question but how did it go down in Charlotte? I know he was fired but it seemed like he was doing ok before that. Is there a story here?
He had Richardson's backing when he cut Norman and didn't bring back DeAngelo Williams or Steve Smith.
But he started putting out feelers to trade Olsen and Davis and Richardson put his foot down. Gettleman was told that those two were not to be traded, released or restructured. The reported exchange had richardson tellin Gettleman "Just do your damn job", to which Gettleman reportedly replied, "I can't under those circumstances". He was terminated the next day.
This is why it is completely unbelievable to me that he was given a mandate to build around Eli. I have a historical context to point to. Those insinuating he has a mandate are pointing to a steaming pile of horseshit.
I don't think he had a mandate necessarily - but I do think his chances of landing the job would have been significantly lower if his evaluation of Eli pointed toward getting a new QB in 2018.
If the rumors are accurate that the Giants scouting staff had no QB favored in 2018, then Gettleman confirming as much in an interview would mean consensus. Stating he wanted a replacement in the form of any of the top rated QBs, if the scouting rumors are to be believed - would put him at odds with those guys during interview time.
I don't think his firing in Carolina means anything as far as that's concerned. Gettleman was at an age where his viability to land another GM gig likely ranged from slim to none. At that point, even if he wasn't a yes man before, he'd be a lot more likely to toe the line because it was not likely he'd get another opportunity to manage a team.
Will this front office realize that the plan has failed or will they just keep kicking the can down the road with Eli because there is no other option?
You want people to admit that a plan that is in year 1 has "failed" despite it showing improvement? It is utterly short-sighted thinking.
That should annoy you more, but the fact that you think a plan has already failed says a lot.
They're going to finish 5-11 with the last game at MetLife being a de facto Cowboy home game. Are we supposed to feel good about that because they didn't go 2-14?
God damn...you think I'm frustrating...
The reality is that there has been no progress. The team is not moving in the right direction. They're an awful, boring team. They have been that way for years and they will continue to be that way until ownership realizes that it needs to change the way that it does business. The organization, from the top down, is stagnant, wholly disconnected from reality in terms of its evaluation of both the players and the evaluators of the players, and wholly unwilling to change the way it operates. They are rotting from the head down.
They're going to finish 5-11 with the last game at MetLife being a de facto Cowboy home game. Are we supposed to feel good about that because they didn't go 2-14?
God damn...you think I'm frustrating...
I think this is the most frustrating part of all of it. People here really think there's been some breakthrough and the team is pointing up, going solely on the basis of the W-L record, neglecting the fact that the team had more injuries last year and had the benefit of very high draft picks and more FA spending over last year, combined with the division being weaker.
The team is still in shambles - despite massive turnover, the OL is still terrible. The offense is completely dysfunctional. The defense would need a promotion to be mediocre. There's nothing here that indicates the arrow is pointing anywhere but sideways/down, and the recommendation seems to be to stick with the status quo all the way around and hope things improve somehow.
I did like the hire at the start. The Accorsi involvement bugged me but yeah I thought Gettleman's hiring improved the chances that. I was completely wrong.
My take is that this has so far not worked out for them.
Not sure what the better alternatives were as the jury is still out on a lot of other, more expensive options.
2. Give Eli a dynamic weapon in the backfield who can run the ball & catch the ball & sign Beckham long term.
My take is that this part of the plan worked wonderfully
3. Secure a LT & RG via FA. Draft a LG - rebuild the OL.
My take is that this part of the plan was mixed - the LG worked out, the LT may eventually do so as well although initially he didn't earn his checks. Part of that may have been due to injury and/or playing alongside a rookie and in a brand new offense
4. Trade for a potential defensive leader in Ogletree
5. Spend a 2019 3rd round pick on Sam Beal who can help the roster this year.
While this clearly didn't work out for 2018, the jury is still out on whether this proves to have been a smart move overall.
6. All this while hiring a HC who has some prior experience & is a safe choice off of McAdoo who was very rough around the edges with regard to the media.
[I would add that the HC choice was highly regarded in many circles, and that his past performance was generally not expected to be entirely predictive of future performance. I'm not ready to evaluate the hire altogether, there are things I like about PS's initial season but many more things I'm concerned about. I do believe he deserves another shot.[/b]
It’s clear, this was an attempt to retool on the fly with Eli in place. It’s easy to see - look at the Saints, Chargers & Steelers. The issue is Eli hasn’t played well enough.
Agree entirely, although I would add that attempting to rebuild on the fly and hoping for more out of Eli represents the best they could do in a single offseason, not necessarily the best they can do given a couple of years.
I will say a positive is the fact that Gettleman hasn’t been shy to cut bait with Flowers & Omameh. Trading Apple & Snacks was also smart.
Agree with this.
What annoys me is the amount of people who can’t st admit that the plan has failed. “60% roster turnover” for example, that explanation doesn’t make 5-9 okay. It just means DG has flipped the roster which includes a lot of high priced players which hasn’t worked. Yes, DG flipped the roster, but the results suck.
Agree that the plan hasn't worked. I don't know anyone who is really happy with how things turned out, even if there are those who see signs of improvement.
Will this front office realize that the plan has failed or will they just keep kicking the can down the road with Eli because there is no other option?
I don't see why this is an either/or situation.
Can't it be both? Recognition that the plan didn't work out and keeping Eli around until a better option can be found? Is it best to force a move to a lesser QB?
Made some comments in bold - figured it was easier to do inline than separate out the comments.
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fuck with the melodrama.
Fat man, tell me what my expectations of this franchise should be? I am will to adjust them. Just tell me, is this a franchise that will be mediocre and occasionally pop into the playoffs (i.e., the Bengals)? Should I expect a win-now mentality? We've now sat since 2013 with mostly awful teams, and a GM that doubled down on that level of play. Should I be patient, have I not been patient enough over the last- 6 years? Should I be happy with mediocre to poor qb play and a team investing the second pick on the most replaceable position in the four major sports? Tell me, I'm very reasonable and can adjust my expectations.
Fat man, how long have you been a season ticket holder? I've been one for over a decade and a half now. I've given a lot of money to this franchise to see a continuously poor product placed on the field. Only to then have a sham GM search, which essentially reinforced the decisions of the past half decade plus. You speak as though everything is right in Giants land, so I can only assume they sign your paychecks. Sp again, please let me know what I should expect going forward and I am happy to adjust.
Gettleman played an integral role in building the good Giants teams in the early 00’s.
Gettleman was involved with building the roster for the Panthers who made a SB.
How about giving him a little longer than 14 games to turn around a shit roster?
You want people to admit that a plan that is in year 1 has "failed" despite it showing improvement? It is utterly short-sighted thinking.
That should annoy you more, but the fact that you think a plan has already failed says a lot.
What season were you watching?
Perhaps this will help.
This year we have been largely healthy - compared to last year, which was a reasonable excuse for the slide - and we are still going to finish with double digit losses.
That's some improvement.
Gettleman played an integral role in building the good Giants teams in the early 00’s.
Gettleman was involved with building the roster for the Panthers who made a SB.
How about giving him a little longer than 14 games to turn around a shit roster?
This is what I'm thinking. Once DG has Eli's clear replacement onboard, folks will relax, I'm certain.
I don't think he had a mandate necessarily - but I do think his chances of landing the job would have been significantly lower if his evaluation of Eli pointed toward getting a new QB in 2018.
If the rumors are accurate that the Giants scouting staff had no QB favored in 2018, then Gettleman confirming as much in an interview would mean consensus. Stating he wanted a replacement in the form of any of the top rated QBs, if the scouting rumors are to be believed - would put him at odds with those guys during interview time.
I don't think his firing in Carolina means anything as far as that's concerned. Gettleman was at an age where his viability to land another GM gig likely ranged from slim to none. At that point, even if he wasn't a yes man before, he'd be a lot more likely to toe the line because it was not likely he'd get another opportunity to manage a team.
I think DG got the job because they really respected him as a football man and they saw him as accomplished. I think they liked what he brought to work every day when he was with the Giants. I think they liked what Accorsi had to say about him.
If the rumor posted today about ownership preferring a QB be picked in the draft (I have no idea if that's true), but allowing DG to make his own choice, the preference for finding an Eli-friendly GM/HC should be put to rest. Even if it isn't, the track record of DG and his history with the franchise should indicate there was a lot more to the decision than simply what his take on Eli was, imo.
Jackrabbit looks like an all-pro that same season
Vernon we signed for a bunch of money and have gotten almost nothing out of him
Solder seemed to need to reach an embarrassing level of play before reaching mediocre as the highest paid LT
OBJ looked better in his first few years.
Shepard looks worse this year.
Engram is a WR that we drafted as a TE that can't block and hasn't been taught to block one lick
Apple had his best game as a pro a few games after leaving our team
We traded away the best run defender in the league for peanuts and people tried to tell us this was a good move
They seemed to think Wheeler and Curtis Riley could be starters
Has anyone that has been on this team for years improved? How about with this new staff? Can anyone name a player that improved from last year to this year?
They realized they screwed up the Omameh thing and moved on - what more do you want?
Solder is a solid LT - he's not elite but the money is what it is, starting LTs get crazy money and he's pretty good.
well-reasoned post.
Jackrabbit looks like an all-pro that same season
Vernon we signed for a bunch of money and have gotten almost nothing out of him
Solder seemed to need to reach an embarrassing level of play before reaching mediocre as the highest paid LT
OBJ looked better in his first few years.
Shepard looks worse this year.
Engram is a WR that we drafted as a TE that can't block and hasn't been taught to block one lick
Apple had his best game as a pro a few games after leaving our team
We traded away the best run defender in the league for peanuts and people tried to tell us this was a good move
They seemed to think Wheeler and Curtis Riley could be starters
Has anyone that has been on this team for years improved? How about with this new staff? Can anyone name a player that improved from last year to this year?
I don't agree with all of this, but you can also add that players who have left the Giants in free agency have gone on to have good seasons elsewhere.
Kennard, Pierre-Paul, and Okwara are all having good seasons.
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Landon Collins looks like an all-pro one season
Jackrabbit looks like an all-pro that same season
Vernon we signed for a bunch of money and have gotten almost nothing out of him
Solder seemed to need to reach an embarrassing level of play before reaching mediocre as the highest paid LT
OBJ looked better in his first few years.
Shepard looks worse this year.
Engram is a WR that we drafted as a TE that can't block and hasn't been taught to block one lick
Apple had his best game as a pro a few games after leaving our team
We traded away the best run defender in the league for peanuts and people tried to tell us this was a good move
They seemed to think Wheeler and Curtis Riley could be starters
Has anyone that has been on this team for years improved? How about with this new staff? Can anyone name a player that improved from last year to this year?
I don't agree with all of this, but you can also add that players who have left the Giants in free agency have gone on to have good seasons elsewhere.
Kennard, Pierre-Paul, and Okwara are all having good seasons.
Lol I know we will never agree on Engram ;) but regardless of what we think of his position I think we both agree that they should be getting more out of him.
They don’t have the full corral of horses to run a 3-4 effectively and with depth.
They need to move on from an overpaid and diminished QB. If he’s still the QB next season it shows they don’t have a plan or vision on what they are going to really build here. Sadly I think he’s here and I don’t think they’re even going to make him take a paycut.
The team has played reasonably hard for the most part but sans Barkley they are a dull and drab product to watch and they don’t exhibit winning football traits in any capacity.
Through the first 8 games, we were actually 13th in health last year vs. 16th this year.
Right now, we are 17th in health vs. finishing the year 18th in health last year.
People forget that we were winless the first part of last year with a healthier squad than this year, but carry on
Miscalculation..it happens
So Next year 500 should be realistic - not a stretch. If they do well, then hey who knows.
FMIC,
You are spot on. This team has improved. We still suck but if you look at just the draft alone I have faith in DG to improve the team even more next year.
Again - Eli Apple is currently the worst CB in the league in terms of QBR against him and he has committed the most penalties.
But because he played well against Carolina - it was a poor decision to let him go??
For a guy who is posting about analytics, you seem to give little fucks about statistics.
Through the first 8 games, we were actually 13th in health last year vs. 16th this year.
Right now, we are 17th in health vs. finishing the year 18th in health last year.
People forget that we were winless the first part of last year with a healthier squad than this year, but carry on
Do we really want to compare the health of Eli's weapons last year versus this year?
But nice try moving the goalposts to refer just to Eli's weapons.
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if the win total increases every year.
by at least + 2.
So Next year 500 should be realistic - not a stretch. If they do well, then hey who knows.
The NFL doesn't work that way. You don't just assume two more wins because we got two more this year.
seems to be not a coincidence those claiming the improvement are often the ardent Eli fans.
no one should be scorched yet but shurmur and gettleman get one more year. i prefer eli retired or rolls out and the team moves on as he is a bottom tier starter in my mind but we will see. problem is a bad eli may extend an incompetent coach as an alibi. dg is old already so not sure what his shelf life is.
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fuck with the melodrama.
Fat man, tell me what my expectations of this franchise should be? I am will to adjust them. Just tell me, is this a franchise that will be mediocre and occasionally pop into the playoffs (i.e., the Bengals)? Should I expect a win-now mentality? We've now sat since 2013 with mostly awful teams, and a GM that doubled down on that level of play. Should I be patient, have I not been patient enough over the last- 6 years? Should I be happy with mediocre to poor qb play and a team investing the second pick on the most replaceable position in the four major sports? Tell me, I'm very reasonable and can adjust my expectations.
Fat man, how long have you been a season ticket holder? I've been one for over a decade and a half now. I've given a lot of money to this franchise to see a continuously poor product placed on the field. Only to then have a sham GM search, which essentially reinforced the decisions of the past half decade plus. You speak as though everything is right in Giants land, so I can only assume they sign your paychecks. Sp again, please let me know what I should expect going forward and I am happy to adjust.
Most qualified candidate out there, worked with multiple teams building his stock around the league before the Giants hired him.
If you're gonna cry about how you willingly pay for season tickets, don't pay for season tickets.
The team has sucked since 2011. Everyone here has grown frustrated at the shitty product. Even though we drafted the best running back in the league, a guard who will have borderline all-pro potential, two d-linemen who will be contributors, signed UDFA Grant Haley who looks like a keeper, kept Rosas, and locked up LT for the next years.
He missed on Patrick Omameh and Jonathan Stewart. The reality is neither move is going to kill us moving forward.
What a lot of you are saying is basically this
"We've been such a mess for 7 years !!! Reese sucked at drafting! Our FA's signings didn't work out! The culture sucks!"
THEN, less than 1 year after these guys got hired to fix this mess, a lot of you are already saying they need to go. How can you not see that is foolish?
Again, i will drop Dave Gettleman's resume here:
As executive
2× Super Bowl champion (XLII, XLVI)
4× NFC Champion (2000, 2007, 2011, 2015)
As administrator
5× AFC Champion (1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1997)
Super Bowl champion (XXXII)
If you want to debate some of moves, by all means! I already admitted some have not worked out. But if you're gonna post comments like "Gettleman is so clueless" fully recognize you are an idiot.
Can we MAYBE, just MAYBE, give them another year? Can we see how the 10 draft picks work out? Can Shurmur have a competent quarterback and offensive line before we run the guy out of town?
Can anyone answer these two questions for me?
- Did they really have an option to move the declining quarterback who makes too much money and has a no trade clause?
- Does anyone have a good counter as to why we cut half the team on September 1 right before the season started? Does your counter argument involve a quote from a media day in April? Which do you think holds more importance?
If they fuck up the draft and the offseason goes poorly, tee off on me and tell me how wrong i am. Then we should be worried. I still like both hires.
What I don't know is if DG really picked Shurmur or if it was ownership I hated the hire from day one and nothing he has done here changed my mind. I will never forget the day after he was hired my cousin a huge browns fan called me up laughing saying how the Giants blew it with his hire that the guy is a clown and just wait how he will just blow games. Well he was right. So if DG is this hard nose no nonsense GM he will move on from Shurmur but I doubt it and so we can look forward to 3-5 years of 7-9 football.
How do you know this? How do you make this statement without knowing what's going to transpire over the course of the next couple years?
Have a little faith.
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Gettleman played an integral role in building the good Giants teams in the early 00’s.
Gettleman was involved with building the roster for the Panthers who made a SB.
How about giving him a little longer than 14 games to turn around a shit roster?
This is what I'm thinking. Once DG has Eli's clear replacement onboard, folks will relax, I'm certain.
I wouldn't count on it. We've got a lot of posters who'll bash Gettleman or Shurmur for any little misstep on or off the field. If we do get Eli's clear replacement, someone will bitch that we overpaid, or we reached or some other asinine thing.
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Apple had his best game as a pro a few games after leaving our team
Again - Eli Apple is currently the worst CB in the league in terms of QBR against him and he has committed the most penalties.
But because he played well against Carolina - it was a poor decision to let him go??
For a guy who is posting about analytics, you seem to give little fucks about statistics.
I'm posting random anecdotes about players and yes it bothers me to see the #9 pick in the draft traded away for nothing and then play well for another team. He had a great game. When your team is in the toilet anyway I don't understand giving up on a player like that. But again sure pick out a small part of my post. Perhaps you'd like to respond to the most important part. Has anyone improved from last year to this year?
And honestly you can break it down to one simple pivotal point: if this o-line could have been DECENT all year long (as it has been at times in the 2nd half of the season) this team certainly had the talent to go 10-6 or 11-5. The defense was pretty solid and would often fall apart in the 4th quarter due to our offensive woes and lack of ball control. Manning and the skills players on offense have been pretty good (especially Barkley) when the o-line has been decent. Rosas is going to the damn pro bowl. This could have been a well balanced talented team and Gettleman was correct in assessing that this team was just a decent o-line away from being playoff contenders, I truly believe that. But the o-line was so so so bad for the first half of the season. He could not have expected his 2 big free agent OL, a #34 overall guard, an experienced starting center, and a former #9 overall pick at OT would be SO bad. I mean it was inexplicable. Solder and Omameh were starters on successful o-lines before coming to the Giants. I can’t daily Gettleman for the o-line being THAT INEXPLICABLY TERRIBLE. But- they were. And we fell deep into a hole we just couldn’t dig ourself out of. I do give him and Shurmur and the team credit for righting the ship somewhat and getting a few wins.
It was a failed season, but I do not consider it a gross miscalculation on DG’s part by any means. This team was a decent OL away from competing (that was true), so he addressed the o-line with th FAs and draft picks available to him, and it turns out it didn’t work. I can’t sit here and say he could have done better, and I don’t blame him for rolling the dice when all we needed was one goddamn unit (OL) to be improved in order for us to be contending for the playoffs.
THEN, less than 1 year after these guys got hired to fix this mess, a lot of you are already saying they need to go. How can you not see that is foolish?
Nice post. I would add to the quote above that more than a few on here were against the hiring of DG before his first press conference was over.
It's been tough discussing anything with people whose minds were made up about our chances back in February.
Give them a chance, at least.
I can imagine Gettleman proving to be a good GM. I don't anticipate it, I sure as hell wouldn't bet on it, but I can imagine it.
I cannot fathom Shurmur becoming a coach who will help navigate t by e team through the playoffs.