| “It’s about winning and I’ve seen someone told one of the reporters I’m in the teardown,’’ Gettleman said recently. “We’re not spending $62.5 million on Nate Solder, spending the money on [28-year-old guard] Patrick Omameh, we’re not trading for Alec Ogletree. If it’s a teardown, we’re not doing that. We evaluated the roster, we’ve developed a plan moving forward. It’s about winning now. Who wants to lose? I don’t.’’ |
I saw this on twitter today - link to article below. A lot of people say this wasn’t a “win now” year or philosophy. I keep seeing the point of “60 percent roster turnover”. This quote says a lot & they are staring down 5-11.
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1. Hire Ernie Accorsi as a consultant
2. Interview Gettleman, Marc Ross (who by most accounts is an incompetent, lazy jerk), Kevin Abrams, and AFTER those guys they spoke to Louis Riddick...the one guy in the entire process without deep ties to the organization.
3. Hire Gettleman with Abrams as his right hand being groomed to replace him.
Where's the outside voice? Where's the self-evaluation after years of poor football? Even if you're going to hire Gettleman, you can learn a lot by interviewing some fresh faces.
Instead, the Giants power structure lives in an echo chamber.
Again, multiple other teams have hired Accorsi to help in their GM search. Why do you continue to ignore this fact?
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Think about what the GM search was in December 2018 on the heels of 5 years of bad football and a completely disastrous 2017:
1. Hire Ernie Accorsi as a consultant
2. Interview Gettleman, Marc Ross (who by most accounts is an incompetent, lazy jerk), Kevin Abrams, and AFTER those guys they spoke to Louis Riddick...the one guy in the entire process without deep ties to the organization.
3. Hire Gettleman with Abrams as his right hand being groomed to replace him.
Where's the outside voice? Where's the self-evaluation after years of poor football? Even if you're going to hire Gettleman, you can learn a lot by interviewing some fresh faces.
Instead, the Giants power structure lives in an echo chamber.
Again, multiple other teams have hired Accorsi to help in their GM search. Why do you continue to ignore this fact?
Accorsi was OUR GM. He drafted our quarterback, whose fate was deeply intertwined with a key draft decision. You don't see the problem there?
1) Military Industrial Complex
2) Politics
3) Law enforcement
4) Automotive
5) Entertainment
Sure Bill, not an unheard of practice, but also industries fraught historically with nepotism, mismanagement, waste, and public/outside intervention and bailouts -- something the New York Giants haven't been immune to in the past = ).
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an easier pill to swallow if we also weren't looking at the Giants analytics staff and seeing that their skill sets are woefully deficient in some important concepts in analytics.
It's the combination that I think forms legitimate gripes here and by conduit legitimate gripes with Gettleman and the people running things.
You can talk about what Gettleman did in Carolina until your blue in the face and we can debate how key it was to success or failure but the other point I've made is how rapidly changing these technologies and the data inputs are and as of now it does not look like we have the staff who is properly keyed in to implement the best technologies in a fast paced and changing environment.
You read articles coming out of Philly or Seattle or Kansas City or New England and there just seems to be a buy in that doesn't exist here. You are quibbling here because we are over emphasizing outright comments against analytics even if they are jokes but this falls way short of leadership talking up the value and how it is already being implemented with success.
Fatman, you are clearly too close to Gettleman to be objective. I don't have some ax to grind with him. I find the data on the front office, their record of success and the way they discuss (or not discuss analytics) to be troubling. You just keep taking the tact of trust me, these guys know what they are doing.
Why should us as fans believe this?
Why should we trust you that you know that they don't know what they are doing when you don't know exactly what they are doing?
I've made a laundry list of reasons to be concerned which I will review quickly, please feel free to make a counter list.
1. Poor results broadly for 7 years
2. Lack of technical expertise on staff
3. Evidence of poor demeanor from prior GM including, unnecessary mocking of analytics, being fired from prior job, clashing with employees
4. Lack of applied game theory on the field including struggling with game management and timeouts
5. Hiring two coaches in a row who appear to be in over their heads, do we have an effective assessment process?
6. Conducting an interview process from GM that appeared to be very closed and didn't seem to evaluate people with new ideas at all
7. Labeling many players (more than I'd say any team in the league) as malcontents, despite the fact that these were 4 first round picks and 3 major free agents scouted by the same scouts we still have in house
8. Despite ridding ourselves of said malcontents having a performance last week that was truely pathetic from an effort standpoint
9. General lack of turnover for a front office that has under performed for years
10. Pursuing inconsistent strategies like not playing OBJ as a punt returner in the first game in a key situation then making him punt returner a few games later when we had a bad record. Making win now free agent signings before backtracking and saying it's more of a complete rebuild to the detriment of our cap. Again, I've never seen an example of a team unloading a pro bowl player mid season and continuing to start a 38 year old QB. This last one I know is unpopular and we get a lot of rhetoric about how you have to say you are going for wins, etc. that's just what you do but it is also "what you do" to have a young QB waiting in the wings so you see what they have if your season reaches a certain point of doom. It's another abject failure of this team that Lauletta was so unprepared to do this and there were no other options.
1. Hire Ernie Accorsi as a consultant
2. Interview Gettleman, Marc Ross (who by most accounts is an incompetent, lazy jerk), Kevin Abrams, and AFTER those guys they spoke to Louis Riddick...the one guy in the entire process without deep ties to the organization.
3. Hire Gettleman with Abrams as his right hand being groomed to replace him.
Where's the outside voice? Where's the self-evaluation after years of poor football? Even if you're going to hire Gettleman, you can learn a lot by interviewing some fresh faces.
Instead, the Giants power structure lives in an echo chamber.
Why do you assume there's no self evaluation? How can you possibly come to that conclusion just because we didn't bring in "an outsider'?
You are just guessing.
No I don't. Not everything new is good, not everything old sucks. I'm willing to give this time and see what happens.
I'm of the opinion that this isn't a simple thing to get right. We are dealing with one of the oldest franchises in the sport who's trying to figure out exactly how to let the best QB in franchise history ride into the sunset while also moving the franchise forward. Easy to say "just rip the bandaid off" but unfortunately, there's many factors to consider. Fans tend to take the mindset of "win at all costs" but in reality, there's a fuckton more to running an NFL team than just hoisting a Lombardi.
I think whoever our GM is would be caught between a rock and a hardplace. "Blowing it up" isn't on the table so people need to get over it. We have a GM who's admitted to mistakes and made roster decisions that his predecessor would have taken 3 years to make. He had a very good draft. The culture is improving (IMO, i'm guessing you will disagree since players you don't like are still here).
In sum, I'm not exactly sure what you want that's both reasonable and realistic.
I think one of the things the Giants have historically done well is think long-term - something they got away from in 2012/2013.
I don't think that highly of Mara right now (I don't think poorly of him, either), but I don't think he's a short-term thinker. At least I hope he's not.
And continues to suck.
Also, the fans didn’t help last year with their outrage.
it's the nature of many of these beasts.
I mean sports teams
dolans and wilpons and at one time Steinbrenners
Sean : 3:44 pm : link : reply
The play of Eli was greatly miscalculated.
Also, the fans didn’t help last year with their outrage.
I'm not going to even get into if the play of Eli was miscalculated or not. I'd rather ask if we would reasonably expect to have a better record if Eli wasn't the QB.
If not, then why is this evaluation of Eli looked at as critical to how the season has gone??
I can't reasonably make an argument that shows we would be better if we had Alex Smith, Kirk Cousins, a drafted rookie or Eli.
And continues to suck.
If you want to think that, go right ahead. I don't think "blowing it up" was ever on the table. They were never cutting Eli heading into this year, not with that cap hit and not with his legacy. You can disagree with that all you want, but here we are. We will never know who's decision that way (probably Mara) but its a decision that was made and now we have to move forward. If you are basing everything off of that decision than you aren't being fair to DG because he came into a pretty shitty scenario.
I don't really know what else to tell you.
Eli + Barkley, Chubb or Nelson
OR
Sam Darnold
It was never going to be draft Eli & have Darnold sit behind him. Eli would not want that & frankly, it wouldn’t be fair for the Giants to make Eli a placeholder. So, once Eli was staying I think the focus became Barkley or Chubb.
The question now will be if the hold off another year on addressing QB. I don’t think we will complete again until we address the massive elephant in the room.
We did that.
And he still acts as if nothing tangible has happened.
If the team was going to be crap anyway, just draft Darnold and start the process of developing him as the Jets are. He has shown some flashes as well.
Maybe because I'm a business owner I can sympathize with them a bit. I know I'd look at it like this:
We're a proud organization with 5 SB's over 25 years including 4 championships and the only organization who has won a SB in each of the decades (80's, 90's, 00's, 10's).
We've had our ups and downs but we have some contacts who did very well for us and helped us win in the past. One of them is a GM who retired just before the past two championships, but who was critical in acquiring the key pieces needed for both championships. He's done consulting before for franchises. We like him and trust him to help us make a good decision.
We really like the guy he had on the Pro Personnel side, who did great work for us and has really had success everywhere he's gone. He knows football, is passionate, understands our core philosophies, and can get us back on the right track. His previous departure happened to loosely coincide with the recent downturn in org performance. The biggest failures over the past half-dozen or so years are not tied in any way to him. We're canning Ross and leave it up to the new guy what to do with the scouts, etc.
There are other guys we like and admire around the league, but none are currently available.
Time is of the essence - we have FA starting in weeks, a draft in about 120 days, and we don't even have a head coach yet. We don't have time for a long drawn-out search.
The guy we like best is available now, but if we postpone our search to include SB contenders may not be. We know he is well respected around the league and do not expect him to be off the market long.
Even IF we waited or prolonged our search, while there may be people with good ideas we could consider, we're not going to find someone available with the pedigree of the guy we want, know, and already trust.
Why wait? Let's hire him now.
I totally see it this way, and I don't have a problem with it.
I'm sorry, what exactly has he done that should inspire such regard from Giants fans? He had a mediocre tenure in Carolina, was hired by the Giants after a sham interview process led by Ernie goddamned Accorsi of all people, and the team is an absolute disaster. He's mighty short on reasons to believe in him.
I don't even think an argument can be put forth that says we'd be better off with Darnold, dead cap money and no Barkley. Maybe not even in Year 2. Same place we are in now, with even more roster holes.
I'm guessing it was a little of both, just my gut. Probably went inter interviews asking each candidate how they can make it work with Eli. In part because of the legacy, part due to his large dead cap hit, part due to being pissed that Reese failed in building the line and didn't want Eli to go out like that.
But i think year 2 is completely different. OL has been playing better and Eli's been very up and down. His cap hit isn't that bad. BUT, the QB's coming out don't wow and if you don't love one, might as well just keep Eli and let his contract expire.
I think you'll see a new Mara when Eli is gone.
We did that.
And he still acts as if nothing tangible has happened.
I'll give Gettleman for getting rid of some (but not all) of the idiots.
C'mon Man. He was part of a dysfunctional Carolina organization that went to a Super Bowl. Gettleman compiled a record of 40-23-1 during his time as GM of the Panthers. That's mediocre??
I've already addressed how it is bullshit to hold a hiring process against him. How in any aspect does that detract from respect he should have??
And for Christ's Sake, he's been here one year. "The team is an absolute disaster"?? That's pinned on him and not the preceding years of terrible drafts?
It is like you guys aren't even being rational.
I doubt that, at 67 years old, Gettleman would have landed a GM job anywhere else in the league.
Due to the draft and timing DG had little choice but to keep the guys who had been scouting all year. I don't have the exact quotes, but remember vividly him describing that he was planning to keep them on "for now". In the interim, I recall him describing how he was giving them very specific set of instructions on how to evaluate/grade the players they were scouting all year.
With the scouts knowing their job was on the line he gets a chance to see them do their best with the new directions for evaluation/grading.
The results? We had what has pretty much been accepted as a good to very good draft.
In other words, maybe the scouts were part of the problem before because of a culture change that was needed. Rumors of Ross being lazy might hold some truth. Who knows, but the GM can fix that right away without having to build an entirely new scouting department. Maybe the scouts were not lazy, but were directed to evaluate players in a way that was ineffective.
Just like with any data - the quality of the data is important, but just as important is the interpretation of the data. DG may have done a good job of addressing both of those things at the same time.
I'm willing to give the amateur scouts another year to see if they've properly addressed the previous failings.
He's walked back his mistakes. He's got another chance this offseason to cut bait on more.
Two major decisions; is Shurmur a championship level coach and can Gettleman improve the talent quickly enough to coincide with the tread Manning has left?
Having said all that, I concede that there were several bad choices made. I don't blow this up immediately because I know that nobody bats 1.000 at GM. I'm going to do my personnel evaluation by looking beyond the hit/miss rate of such a small sample size. That's extreme short-term thinking.
ok.
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We know he is well respected around the league and do not expect him to be off the market long.
I doubt that, at 67 years old, Gettleman would have landed a GM job anywhere else in the league.
I'll amend to "We believe he is well respected around the league and do not expect him to be off the market long."
It's okay to disagree - I'm definitely not right, just sharing what I think the viewpoint may have been, or at least how I would have looked at it if I were in Mara's shoes.
I do think that DG is highly regarded. I'm not sure what would have happened, especially after the cancer diagnosis. Maybe he just settles into retirement at that point had he not accepted the job. Who knows?
Having said all that, I concede that there were several bad choices made. I don't blow this up immediately because I know that nobody bats 1.000 at GM. I'm going to do my personnel evaluation by looking beyond the hit/miss rate of such a small sample size. That's extreme short-term thinking.
None of the misses are going to have any long term impacts on the success of the team. It's not like he signed Albert Haynesworth to a 100 million contract that will hurt our cap for years to come. It's also not like he missed signing a bunch of talented players that he could/should have.
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It’s quite simple..
Sean : 3:44 pm : link : reply
The play of Eli was greatly miscalculated.
Also, the fans didn’t help last year with their outrage.
I'm not going to even get into if the play of Eli was miscalculated or not. I'd rather ask if we would reasonably expect to have a better record if Eli wasn't the QB.
If not, then why is this evaluation of Eli looked at as critical to how the season has gone??
I can't reasonably make an argument that shows we would be better if we had Alex Smith, Kirk Cousins, a drafted rookie or Eli.
None of the misses are going to have any long term impacts on the success of the team. It's not like he signed Albert Haynesworth to a 100 million contract that will hurt our cap for years to come. It's also not like he missed signing a bunch of talented players that he could/should have.
That's my take as well. Everyone's going to miss given enough swings - but with the most important swings you've got to put the ball in play. A swing and a miss early in the count doesn't mean the hitter is an absolute failure.
If the guy is known as a professional hitter - you watch closely to see if there is a trend continuing but you don't immediately bench him because of a strike early on.
I could see not signing Beckham. What would have gotten in return?
What else? trade Collins and Jenkins?
Now u need a wr and a qb and an ol and a dl and lb and a secondary.
imo it was not really a 3 win team. it was a 0 to 1 win team.
guys to root for a sports team you will live through tough times. But I'm not hearing any reasonable playful improvement from your suggestions that tells me it's a path to the playoffs one season faster.
please remember that as a GM you also will make good decisions that dont work out no matter how sound your choices.
some times choice is the choice of the lesser risk.
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Agreed that they were misses. My thinking is that they were poor choices at the time, but there were not a TON of great options available, particularly on the OL. In the past we could look at a guy like Whitworth and wonder why we didn't bring him in. Who were the great FA's this year we missed out on?
Having said all that, I concede that there were several bad choices made. I don't blow this up immediately because I know that nobody bats 1.000 at GM. I'm going to do my personnel evaluation by looking beyond the hit/miss rate of such a small sample size. That's extreme short-term thinking.
None of the misses are going to have any long term impacts on the success of the team. It's not like he signed Albert Haynesworth to a 100 million contract that will hurt our cap for years to come. It's also not like he missed signing a bunch of talented players that he could/should have.
In the aggregate Gettleman did commit a lot of guaranteed money to players who have not played well. Keep an eye on the Solder deal in the coming years.
The Eagles hired Pederson & got him Wentz.
I assumed that the Giants would draft their future QB & pair him with an offensive coach like Shurmur. That always felt the most logical to me in terms of team building.
It’s done now though, now they need to figure out how to win while Barkley is playing at an all pro level.
I could see not signing Beckham. What would have gotten in return?
What else? trade Collins and Jenkins?
Now u need a wr and a qb and an ol and a dl and lb and a secondary.
imo it was not really a 3 win team. it was a 0 to 1 win team.
guys to root for a sports team you will live through tough times. But I'm not hearing any reasonable playful improvement from your suggestions that tells me it's a path to the playoffs one season faster.
please remember that as a GM you also will make good decisions that dont work out no matter how sound your choices.
some times choice is the choice of the lesser risk.
I think those who advocate "blowing it up" are referring to the top of the organization more so than to the player personnel decisions.
So it would have been - fire McAdoo, Reese, Ross, Abrams, all the scouts, and Chris Mara. Fire basically all the front office including support staff and everyone involved with football operations, including all of the coaches and trainers. DO NOT HIRE ANYONE with any connections to the previous regime to help with replacing the aforementioned. Conduct an exhaustive search and bring in the top people who are available so they can build the team correctly.
Then, expect that the new coach and GM not miss on rebuilding the franchise right away. If they start out 1-7 or similar get rid of them, they obviously haven't made enough good change.
End of the year don't accept mediocrity or fool yourself into thinking that five wins or so is any kind of improvement. If they don't get it fixed - fire them all and repeat the above process.
This is obviously the best way to run an organization, kind of surprised you missed that Bill2.
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In comment 14227964 Dan in the Springs said:
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Agreed that they were misses. My thinking is that they were poor choices at the time, but there were not a TON of great options available, particularly on the OL. In the past we could look at a guy like Whitworth and wonder why we didn't bring him in. Who were the great FA's this year we missed out on?
Having said all that, I concede that there were several bad choices made. I don't blow this up immediately because I know that nobody bats 1.000 at GM. I'm going to do my personnel evaluation by looking beyond the hit/miss rate of such a small sample size. That's extreme short-term thinking.
None of the misses are going to have any long term impacts on the success of the team. It's not like he signed Albert Haynesworth to a 100 million contract that will hurt our cap for years to come. It's also not like he missed signing a bunch of talented players that he could/should have.
In the aggregate Gettleman did commit a lot of guaranteed money to players who have not played well. Keep an eye on the Solder deal in the coming years.
What players have we missed out on as a result of the players that were signed?
For a while there I was lost.
I thought they did fire everyone but Abrams so I guess the goal is to hire someone you dont know to hire sure things they dont know.
Sort of alignment from top to bottom.
Is there an organization of any kind where no one knew anyone before?
Brings to mind Woody Allen. Let's have a team where everyone wouldnt want to be on a team which would chose them as a member.
And for Christ's Sake, he's been here one year. "The team is an absolute disaster"?? That's pinned on him and not the preceding years of terrible drafts?
It is like you guys aren't even being rational.
I'll support you on this one, the team was absolutely a disaster when he got here, both talent and culture were dumpster fires. Impossible to fix all that in one, or even 2 off seasons.
Given the state of the team, that this was going to be a multi year rebuild (forget about the marketing speak of competing this year), he needs more time.
In the spring, I wasn't buying that this team had any chance of being competitive this year. And I am still not buying it for next year. None of that reflects on Gettleman, it reflects on the previous regime. By year 3, Gettleman has to take responsibility for the results. There should be tangible evidence of significant improvement. Like being in contention for the playoffs. SB contention is further out than that.
People want a quick fix, unfortunately there is none to be had for this team. Just not that easy. They will point to the Rams turn around, and I point to a team that was building for years before they reached critical mass. It may seem like a quick turn around, but it wasn't, it was years in the making.
What players have we missed out on as a result of the players that were signed?
With a rolling cap all bad investments have a future impact. It's not who the Giants have missed out on, it's the future flexibility to make moves and who they will miss out on.
Gettleman fell flat in UFA, doesn't disqualify him or preclude future success. But maybe he needs to reassess his UFA calculus.
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And for Christ's Sake, he's been here one year. "The team is an absolute disaster"?? That's pinned on him and not the preceding years of terrible drafts?
It is like you guys aren't even being rational.
I'll support you on this one, the team was absolutely a disaster when he got here, both talent and culture were dumpster fires. Impossible to fix all that in one, or even 2 off seasons.
Given the state of the team, that this was going to be a multi year rebuild (forget about the marketing speak of competing this year), he needs more time.
In the spring, I wasn't buying that this team had any chance of being competitive this year. And I am still not buying it for next year. None of that reflects on Gettleman, it reflects on the previous regime. By year 3, Gettleman has to take responsibility for the results. There should be tangible evidence of significant improvement. Like being in contention for the playoffs. SB contention is further out than that.
People want a quick fix, unfortunately there is none to be had for this team. Just not that easy. They will point to the Rams turn around, and I point to a team that was building for years before they reached critical mass. It may seem like a quick turn around, but it wasn't, it was years in the making.
McL, would be great to connect off BBI BTW. Working on a retail portfolio research product, seems like you would be great to add to our beta test. bbimock@yahoo.com if you are interested, no worries if not
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What players have we missed out on as a result of the players that were signed?
With a rolling cap all bad investments have a future impact. It's not who the Giants have missed out on, it's the future flexibility to make moves and who they will miss out on.
Gettleman fell flat in UFA, doesn't disqualify him or preclude future success. But maybe he needs to reassess his UFA calculus.
Stweart and Omameh are not huge hits, we've eaten them and can move on. No big deal...
Solder is a pill to swallow, but unfortunately he was a necessary evil. There was simply no way to walk into this season without having done something in FA for the OL. Everybody, the Maras, players and fans would have been outside his house with torches and pitchforks. It simply wasn't going to happen.
That contract along with the ones that Richburg and Pugh got do highlight the fact that signing FA OL given the current state of the market is not a sustainable or viable strategy. OL is going to have to come through the draft.