he's not a great fundamental tackler like Kenny Phillips. And he played like ass this year. The bigger laugh is OV.
Kenny Phillips? How about Terry Kinard or Greg Jackson? Maybe even Sam Garnes when his feet weren't stuck in the mud. Kenny Phillips was tall; I will give him that. But I never thought of him as a "great fundamental tackler" especially when I remember his face plant where he completely missed the Eagle TE running after the catch and tried to make a divot with his face.
Safety who was only voted in the Pro Bowl by name value and off his past success. Even he made more plays than Collins. And he was ass in coverage.
You think Collins was voted in by name recognition? One of the only places Collins is torched is here on BBI. I get it because he is not good in coverage and I do question if he should get the big contract myself. But the rest of football - players, analysts, media think he is great and I am sometimes amazed at the love he gets seeing how bad he is in coverage. But he is a bulldog against the run, attacks the line and is a pretty good blitzing DB. 95% of the players he hits go down on the spot.
I think he is more of a OLB, but undersized.
Were very Giants centric here and we focus on the negatives (kinda like how everyone else likes your wife, except you ). But In Terms of safety play around the league he’s much better than most (4th in tackles) and that’s on a team that can’t rush the passer. If a WR or a RB makes a play on Collins that’s the coaches fault because he shouldn’t be doing those things.
Losing Collins will hurt he is an impact player and when a defense plays well;(as they did three years ago) he’s an all world player when given the opportunity to move around and make plays. Line him up In a traditional safety role and you lose much of that.
Last year he clearly overperformed and was deserving of his selction.
This year he performed more in line with his ability and got selected based on reputation
Wether he sticks around or not is a pure business decision. He may want to be paid for last year, and thats not in the Giant's best interests.
Its not uncommon to fail to sign players because of a disagreement like this. He may well get a better offer elsewhere that the Giants shouldn't try to match
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm curious how many teams in the NFC play a 3-4 defense? Â
With OV being listed as an OLB and perhaps a weak pooling of candidates from the NFC, then he was selected based on name recognition and the fact that others at OLB just don't measure up.
I don't know. I'm just trying to find an explanation. There is no way he would even be a candidate if he was listed as DE in the NFC.
There is no NFC or AFC anymore in terms of the probowl.
Yes there is. They switched it back.
Shows you how much I pay attention to it. haha
Rob, My revelation showing how much I pay attention to it is even more true. I didn't realize they went back. *shrugs*
A third of the voting is by fans. A third by the players. And a third by the coaches. It is supposed to even the vote out from being a popularity contest.
Bigger picture. Who in the AFC as a RB would have made it in the NFC? Fuckign Christian McCaffrey didnt even make the team and he is HEADS AND SHOULDERS better than anyone in the AFC> Alvin Kamara too. Shit, I could argue Adrian Peterson and Chris Carson were better than anyone in the AFC as well.
Lindsay isnt better than ANY of those players I mentioned. He just so happened to play in a weak conference for RBs. Man, some of you guys are fucking unbearable. And this is coming from me!
That doesn't matter to those guys. You have an entire group on BBI who truly believes that RB's can be found anywhere so they will use Lindsay as a prime example of how we could have drafted a QB and picked a RB up after K-Mart closed and the cashiers were available.
It doesn't matter that 4 out of the top 5 RB's with total yards from scrimmage are high draft picks.
Bigger picture. Who in the AFC as a RB would have made it in the NFC? Fuckign Christian McCaffrey didnt even make the team and he is HEADS AND SHOULDERS better than anyone in the AFC> Alvin Kamara too. Shit, I could argue Adrian Peterson and Chris Carson were better than anyone in the AFC as well.
Lindsay isnt better than ANY of those players I mentioned. He just so happened to play in a weak conference for RBs. Man, some of you guys are fucking unbearable. And this is coming from me!
I imagine Hunt makes it if not for his issues...
And the top 5 in the NFC (Barkley, Elliott, McCaffrey, Gurley, Kamara) are better than all the AFC RBs and it's not close.
That doesn't matter to those guys. You have an entire group on BBI who truly believes that RB's can be found anywhere so they will use Lindsay as a prime example of how we could have drafted a QB and picked a RB up after K-Mart closed and the cashiers were available.
It doesn't matter that 4 out of the top 5 RB's with total yards from scrimmage are high draft picks.
It is a narrative and they will run with it!!
I'm just following the market. And year after year after year we see quality running backs picked in mid-rounds, late rounds, undrafted, and signed from other team's current rosters. Quality that is good enough to lead a team in rushing, the league in rushing, make pro bowls, etc.
That doesn't matter to those guys. You have an entire group on BBI who truly believes that RB's can be found anywhere so they will use Lindsay as a prime example of how we could have drafted a QB and picked a RB up after K-Mart closed and the cashiers were available.
It doesn't matter that 4 out of the top 5 RB's with total yards from scrimmage are high draft picks.
It is a narrative and they will run with it!!
I'm just following the market. And year after year after year we see quality running backs picked in mid-rounds, late rounds, undrafted, and signed from other team's current rosters. Quality that is good enough to lead a team in rushing, the league in rushing, make pro bowls, etc.
And the added upside? Cheap.
Sorry if this bugs you...didn't mean to bug you.
Do you really believe Phillip Lindsay would have the same success behind our trash OL? Do you seem him making the same runs as Barkley did?
Come on, perspective. Phillip Lindsay would be a JAG on this team right now because it takes a special talent to do what Barkley did.
of Barkley, Gallman would be good enough quality to "lead the team in rushing". And surely there's little statistical difference between Gallman and Barkley, right?
I mean using that standard, cherry-picking is easy.
You can find several lower draft picks leading their teams in receiving.
That doesn't matter to those guys. You have an entire group on BBI who truly believes that RB's can be found anywhere so they will use Lindsay as a prime example of how we could have drafted a QB and picked a RB up after K-Mart closed and the cashiers were available.
It doesn't matter that 4 out of the top 5 RB's with total yards from scrimmage are high draft picks.
It is a narrative and they will run with it!!
I'm just following the market. And year after year after year we see quality running backs picked in mid-rounds, late rounds, undrafted, and signed from other team's current rosters. Quality that is good enough to lead a team in rushing, the league in rushing, make pro bowls, etc.
And the added upside? Cheap.
Sorry if this bugs you...didn't mean to bug you.
Rushing leaders with "mid-rounds, late rounds, undrafted" highlighted:
2018
Elliott - 1st rd
Gurley - 1st rd
Barkley - 1st rd
Mixon - 2nd rd (1st rd if no off field issues) Lindsay - UDFA
2017 Hunt - 3rd rd (giving benefit of doubt that the 3rd is "mid-rounds", though again a guy that fell due to off field issues and is now unemployed)
Gurley - 1st rd
Bell - 2nd rd
McCoy - 2nd rd
Ingram - 1st rd
2016
Elliott - 1st rd (300 yards more than anyone) Howard - 5th rd
Murray - 3rd rd
Ajayi - 5th rd
Bell - 2nd rd
2015
AP - 1st rd
Martin - 1st rd
Gurley - 1st rd
McFadden - 1st rd Ivory - UDFA
2013
McCoy - 2nd rd
Forte - 2nd rd Charles - 3rd rd
Morris - 6th rd
AP - 1st rd
So one season in the last six had 3 mid-late-undrafted RBs in the top 5 of rushing compared to three seasons with only 1. The most glaring trend from these lists is that the players consistently on them are all high picks. Murray (3rd round) is the only mid-late-undrafted RB to appear in the top 5 in multiple seasons over the last 6 years. Compare that to: Bell, McCoy, AP, Elliott and Gurley for RBs selected in rds 1-2 (and 3 of those players are top 10 overall picks).
If you want a consistently good RB, you need to invest a high draft pick in them.
Do you really believe Phillip Lindsay would have the same success behind our trash OL? Do you seem him making the same runs as Barkley did?
Come on, perspective. Phillip Lindsay would be a JAG on this team right now because it takes a special talent to do what Barkley did.
You and Fat-Mara in Charlotte have this unusual way of applying lemon juice to my posts and reading something that is not there.
I never compared Lindsay to SB. I do know he hits the hole very quickly and has a really good one cut and go move. But I have no idea how that would convey to the Giants.
But he's been outstanding in Denver and he's been quite a find. They look like they have the making of a nice two headed monster with Lindsay and Freeman.
I think it's without dispute that RB is the position you can get the best production at a cheap cap spend if you shop the market wisely.
the winner of the NFL rushing title has been a 1st-round pick for the 13th time in the last 20 seasons. Not a "quality running back." The NFL rushing title.
Not counting 2018 yet, 12 of the last 19 1st-Team All Pro Running Backs have been 1st-round picks. Not a "quality running back." 1st-Team All Pro.
The three top rushers in 2018 right now are 1st-round picks.
But sure...the very best at the position are routinely found for peanuts...
You guys looking at Saquon as simply a running back are looking at it Â
Rushing leaders with "mid-rounds, late rounds, undrafted" highlighted:
2018
Elliott - 1st rd
Gurley - 1st rd
Barkley - 1st rd
Mixon - 2nd rd (1st rd if no off field issues)
Lindsay - UDFA
2017
Hunt - 3rd rd (giving benefit of doubt that the 3rd is "mid-rounds", though again a guy that fell due to off field issues and is now unemployed)
Gurley - 1st rd
Bell - 2nd rd
McCoy - 2nd rd
Ingram - 1st rd
2016
Elliott - 1st rd (300 yards more than anyone)
Howard - 5th rd
Murray - 3rd rd
Ajayi - 5th rd
Bell - 2nd rd
2015
AP - 1st rd
Martin - 1st rd
Gurley - 1st rd
McFadden - 1st rd
Ivory - UDFA
2013
McCoy - 2nd rd
Forte - 2nd rd
Charles - 3rd rd
Morris - 6th rd
AP - 1st rd
So one season in the last six had 3 mid-late-undrafted RBs in the top 5 of rushing compared to three seasons with only 1. The most glaring trend from these lists is that the players consistently on them are all high picks. Murray (3rd round) is the only mid-late-undrafted RB to appear in the top 5 in multiple seasons over the last 6 years. Compare that to: Bell, McCoy, AP, Elliott and Gurley for RBs selected in rds 1-2 (and 3 of those players are top 10 overall picks).
If you want a consistently good RB, you need to invest a high draft pick in them.
Thanks for that - good stuff.
So using your limited sample, you CAN find highly productive RBs in later rounds. And that is the point.
Toss out leading the league in rushing or making Pro Bowls, the larger point is finding players who can do that job effectively and be a threat. Like we did it twice in 2008 and 2012 winning SBs with Bradshaw and Jacobs. Or how Pittsburgh has done it without Bell. Or the Packers. Or the Patriots. The Bears this year. The current Saints. This year's Colts are finding this formula to their liking this year. The Chiefs.
At the end of the day, both ways work - going with the high pick or finding the later round diamond in the rough. But my way is cheaper and frees up more cap space for other positions.
So using your limited sample, you CAN find highly productive RBs in later rounds. And that is the point.
If that's your point, you can make the exact same point about every position in the NFL. Hell, unlike RBs you can actually find a late round WR that has consistently been in the top 5 in receiving yards.
Even excluding Brady, you can find mid-late-undrafted QBs that were in the top 5 in QB rating (or other QB stats) such as Romo, Prescott, Wilson, Cousins.
The one position where the whole "you can find highly productive XXs in later rounds" argument (mostly) falls apart is pass rusher.
Does anyone remember who won the rushing title in 2007 Â
The argument over rushing titles is independent of whether taking a rb very high is justifiable. Who were the running backs on the last 5 super bowl winners?
If that's your point, you can make the exact same point about every position in the NFL. Hell, unlike RBs you can actually find a late round WR that has consistently been in the top 5 in receiving yards.
Even excluding Brady, you can find mid-late-undrafted QBs that were in the top 5 in QB rating (or other QB stats) such as Romo, Prescott, Wilson, Cousins.
The one position where the whole "you can find highly productive XXs in later rounds" argument (mostly) falls apart is pass rusher.
I'm sorry. You are missing the gist of my point.
I thought I stated earlier, and it was implied in my post to you, that it's production AND value. So there is always a big supply of RBs; and if you do your homework you can find one that can provide quality production at a great price.
RE: Does anyone remember who won the rushing title in 2007 Â
The argument over rushing titles is independent of whether taking a rb very high is justifiable. Who were the running backs on the last 5 super bowl winners?
Speaking of those Super Bowls, the last five Super-Bowl-winning QBs:
* Nick Foles (3rd-round pick)
* Tom Brady (6th-round pick)
* Peyton Manning's corpse (1st-round pick)
* Tom Brady (6th-round pick)
* Russell Wilson (3rd-round pick)
The argument over rushing titles is independent of whether taking a rb very high is justifiable. Who were the running backs on the last 5 super bowl winners?
Speaking of those Super Bowls, the last five Super-Bowl-winning QBs:
* Nick Foles (3rd-round pick)
* Tom Brady (6th-round pick)
* Peyton Manning's corpse (1st-round pick)
* Tom Brady (6th-round pick)
* Russell Wilson (3rd-round pick)
Well doesn't that say something interesting!
Go ahead and pretend Nick Foles is a franchise QB all you want. Go ahead and pretend you can wait till the 6th round for a QB if you want. No part of that makes clinging to exceptions any more realistic or a legitimate strategy.
The point is, the list of the last 5 SB QB's in their draft position is just as unimpressive as the list of the last 5 SB RB's.
But RB's are commonplace working at Trader Joe's.
So, what is the point you're trying to prove? That QBs are easy to find? That you can not find a RB to give you quality production without a high pick?
The point is, the list of the last 5 SB QB's in their draft position is just as unimpressive as the list of the last 5 SB RB's.
But RB's are commonplace working at Trader Joe's.
So, what is the point you're trying to prove? That QBs are easy to find? That you can not find a RB to give you quality production without a high pick?
The fact is simple. If you take really good, all-pro type players at any point, your team is going to get better. There is more than one way to win in the NFL. Look at the recent SB winners.
-brady is Brady and deserves all the kudos in the world.
- Seattle won a SB with a game manager, a beast of a RB, and a defense that kicked the shit out of everyone.
- denver won a SB with a QB who could barely throw it 10 yards, and relied on their defense.
- Eagles won with a backup QB, and a dominating OL/DL.
The point is go get the great players. From there, structure your team to what you need. We got a GREAT player in Barkley. Now, lets go and get him what he needs to be a champion as well.
Were very Giants centric here and we focus on the negatives (kinda like how everyone else likes your wife, except you ). But In Terms of safety play around the league he’s much better than most (4th in tackles) and that’s on a team that can’t rush the passer. If a WR or a RB makes a play on Collins that’s the coaches fault because he shouldn’t be doing those things.
Losing Collins will hurt he is an impact player and when a defense plays well;(as they did three years ago) he’s an all world player when given the opportunity to move around and make plays. Line him up In a traditional safety role and you lose much of that.
The point is, the list of the last 5 SB QB's in their draft position is just as unimpressive as the list of the last 5 SB RB's.
But RB's are commonplace working at Trader Joe's.
So, what is the point you're trying to prove? That QBs are easy to find? That you can not find a RB to give you quality production without a high pick?
The fact is simple. If you take really good, all-pro type players at any point, your team is going to get better. There is more than one way to win in the NFL. Look at the recent SB winners.
-brady is Brady and deserves all the kudos in the world.
- Seattle won a SB with a game manager, a beast of a RB, and a defense that kicked the shit out of everyone.
- denver won a SB with a QB who could barely throw it 10 yards, and relied on their defense.
- Eagles won with a backup QB, and a dominating OL/DL.
The point is go get the great players. From there, structure your team to what you need. We got a GREAT player in Barkley. Now, lets go and get him what he needs to be a champion as well.
And the championship games were Foles, Bortles, Keenum and a 6th round QB with man boobs.
the winner of the NFL rushing title has been a 1st-round pick for the 13th time in the last 20 seasons. Not a "quality running back." The NFL rushing title.
Not counting 2018 yet, 12 of the last 19 1st-Team All Pro Running Backs have been 1st-round picks. Not a "quality running back." 1st-Team All Pro.
The three top rushers in 2018 right now are 1st-round picks.
But sure...the very best at the position are routinely found for peanuts...
So 7 all-pro RBs out of 19 came from after the 1st round? Not bad at all, if you're the kind of person who really cares about individual honors or rushing titles.
It's been two decades since the winner of the rushing title won the Super Bowl. That was Terrell Davis - a 6th round pick.
The point is, the list of the last 5 SB QB's in their draft position is just as unimpressive as the list of the last 5 SB RB's.
But RB's are commonplace working at Trader Joe's.
So, what is the point you're trying to prove? That QBs are easy to find? That you can not find a RB to give you quality production without a high pick?
The fact is simple. If you take really good, all-pro type players at any point, your team is going to get better. There is more than one way to win in the NFL. Look at the recent SB winners.
-brady is Brady and deserves all the kudos in the world.
- Seattle won a SB with a game manager, a beast of a RB, and a defense that kicked the shit out of everyone.
- denver won a SB with a QB who could barely throw it 10 yards, and relied on their defense.
- Eagles won with a backup QB, and a dominating OL/DL.
The point is go get the great players. From there, structure your team to what you need. We got a GREAT player in Barkley. Now, lets go and get him what he needs to be a champion as well.
Denver won a super bowl by constructing a historic defense yes, and they've been chasing a QB ever since. They can't even find someone competent enough to give you what they got from half-retired Peyton. They've blown picks and salary cap left and right trying to find a capable QB.
To say that the Eagles won with a backup QB is a very cherry picked statement. Carson Wentz was 11-2 with 33 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. This Nick Foles thing has run it's course. They were so confident in Nick Foles until he started the regular season for them, then they couldn't get Wentz back in there fast enough. The Eagles don't get to the playoffs without Wentz too. By any form of evaluation he was an exceptional quarterback.
Seattle won with an inexperienced Russell Wilson, but clearly we know he's not a garden variety QB.
Is there more than one way to win? Sure. Building a great defense can work. We also know the league stacks the rulebook against defense, and we also know the injury rate can make a great defense a year-to-year proposition. How are the Jaguars looking defensively? Yes, they're injured. And also their best players that are still healthy had down to earth years and could no longer support a mediocre QB with lots of turnovers and thus short field scoring opportunities.
And I agree with your plan, let's go hoard great players.
But then don't claw for ultimately meaningless wins in a bad year and slide back in the draft if there's a chance we could have gotten the best pass rusher in the draft, which this team sorely needs. Or the best cover corner. It's burning the candle at both ends.
Hmmmm. Interesting.
And a QB taken in the 6th round made it to his 14th.
Kenny Phillips? How about Terry Kinard or Greg Jackson? Maybe even Sam Garnes when his feet weren't stuck in the mud. Kenny Phillips was tall; I will give him that. But I never thought of him as a "great fundamental tackler" especially when I remember his face plant where he completely missed the Eagle TE running after the catch and tried to make a divot with his face.
Who is Roy Williams and why should I care?
Safety who was only voted in the Pro Bowl by name value and off his past success. Even he made more plays than Collins. And he was ass in coverage.
You think Collins was voted in by name recognition? One of the only places Collins is torched is here on BBI. I get it because he is not good in coverage and I do question if he should get the big contract myself. But the rest of football - players, analysts, media think he is great and I am sometimes amazed at the love he gets seeing how bad he is in coverage. But he is a bulldog against the run, attacks the line and is a pretty good blitzing DB. 95% of the players he hits go down on the spot.
I think he is more of a OLB, but undersized.
Collins 70.7
Vernon is PFF's highest rated NYG defender among the significant players that I checked.
PFF gave Collins a 92.1 grade for 2016, so this year's mark is a significant drop.
Subjective and legitimately open to criticism, but at least based on a systematic analysis of every play.
Losing Collins will hurt he is an impact player and when a defense plays well;(as they did three years ago) he’s an all world player when given the opportunity to move around and make plays. Line him up In a traditional safety role and you lose much of that.
This year he performed more in line with his ability and got selected based on reputation
Wether he sticks around or not is a pure business decision. He may want to be paid for last year, and thats not in the Giant's best interests.
Its not uncommon to fail to sign players because of a disagreement like this. He may well get a better offer elsewhere that the Giants shouldn't try to match
Quote:
In comment 14225472 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14225434 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
With OV being listed as an OLB and perhaps a weak pooling of candidates from the NFC, then he was selected based on name recognition and the fact that others at OLB just don't measure up.
I don't know. I'm just trying to find an explanation. There is no way he would even be a candidate if he was listed as DE in the NFC.
There is no NFC or AFC anymore in terms of the probowl.
Yes there is. They switched it back.
Shows you how much I pay attention to it. haha
Rob, My revelation showing how much I pay attention to it is even more true. I didn't realize they went back. *shrugs*
A third of the voting is by fans. A third by the players. And a third by the coaches. It is supposed to even the vote out from being a popularity contest.
This made me laugh. Please someone give us a 3 for our "Pro Bowler".
bw in dc : 12/18/2018 9:12 pm : link : reply
Phillip Lindsay made it.
Hmmmm. Interesting.
and a 6th rounder made it at QB.
Hmmmm, not so interesting.
Giants will try to come to him and say he should take a cut for next season and he'll say, "F*** outta here! I'm a Pro Bowler!"
Quote:
Undrafted RB...
bw in dc : 12/18/2018 9:12 pm : link : reply
Phillip Lindsay made it.
Hmmmm. Interesting.
and a 6th rounder made it at QB.
Hmmmm, not so interesting.
As a rookie?
Bigger picture. Who in the AFC as a RB would have made it in the NFC? Fuckign Christian McCaffrey didnt even make the team and he is HEADS AND SHOULDERS better than anyone in the AFC> Alvin Kamara too. Shit, I could argue Adrian Peterson and Chris Carson were better than anyone in the AFC as well.
Lindsay isnt better than ANY of those players I mentioned. He just so happened to play in a weak conference for RBs. Man, some of you guys are fucking unbearable. And this is coming from me!
It doesn't matter that 4 out of the top 5 RB's with total yards from scrimmage are high draft picks.
It is a narrative and they will run with it!!
Only to Rosas?
Bigger picture. Who in the AFC as a RB would have made it in the NFC? Fuckign Christian McCaffrey didnt even make the team and he is HEADS AND SHOULDERS better than anyone in the AFC> Alvin Kamara too. Shit, I could argue Adrian Peterson and Chris Carson were better than anyone in the AFC as well.
Lindsay isnt better than ANY of those players I mentioned. He just so happened to play in a weak conference for RBs. Man, some of you guys are fucking unbearable. And this is coming from me!
I imagine Hunt makes it if not for his issues...
And the top 5 in the NFC (Barkley, Elliott, McCaffrey, Gurley, Kamara) are better than all the AFC RBs and it's not close.
It doesn't matter that 4 out of the top 5 RB's with total yards from scrimmage are high draft picks.
It is a narrative and they will run with it!!
I'm just following the market. And year after year after year we see quality running backs picked in mid-rounds, late rounds, undrafted, and signed from other team's current rosters. Quality that is good enough to lead a team in rushing, the league in rushing, make pro bowls, etc.
And the added upside? Cheap.
Sorry if this bugs you...didn't mean to bug you.
Quote:
That doesn't matter to those guys. You have an entire group on BBI who truly believes that RB's can be found anywhere so they will use Lindsay as a prime example of how we could have drafted a QB and picked a RB up after K-Mart closed and the cashiers were available.
It doesn't matter that 4 out of the top 5 RB's with total yards from scrimmage are high draft picks.
It is a narrative and they will run with it!!
I'm just following the market. And year after year after year we see quality running backs picked in mid-rounds, late rounds, undrafted, and signed from other team's current rosters. Quality that is good enough to lead a team in rushing, the league in rushing, make pro bowls, etc.
And the added upside? Cheap.
Sorry if this bugs you...didn't mean to bug you.
Do you really believe Phillip Lindsay would have the same success behind our trash OL? Do you seem him making the same runs as Barkley did?
Come on, perspective. Phillip Lindsay would be a JAG on this team right now because it takes a special talent to do what Barkley did.
I mean using that standard, cherry-picking is easy.
You can find several lower draft picks leading their teams in receiving.
Quote:
That doesn't matter to those guys. You have an entire group on BBI who truly believes that RB's can be found anywhere so they will use Lindsay as a prime example of how we could have drafted a QB and picked a RB up after K-Mart closed and the cashiers were available.
It doesn't matter that 4 out of the top 5 RB's with total yards from scrimmage are high draft picks.
It is a narrative and they will run with it!!
I'm just following the market. And year after year after year we see quality running backs picked in mid-rounds, late rounds, undrafted, and signed from other team's current rosters. Quality that is good enough to lead a team in rushing, the league in rushing, make pro bowls, etc.
And the added upside? Cheap.
Sorry if this bugs you...didn't mean to bug you.
Rushing leaders with "mid-rounds, late rounds, undrafted" highlighted:
2018
Elliott - 1st rd
Gurley - 1st rd
Barkley - 1st rd
Mixon - 2nd rd (1st rd if no off field issues)
Lindsay - UDFA
2017
Hunt - 3rd rd (giving benefit of doubt that the 3rd is "mid-rounds", though again a guy that fell due to off field issues and is now unemployed)
Gurley - 1st rd
Bell - 2nd rd
McCoy - 2nd rd
Ingram - 1st rd
2016
Elliott - 1st rd (300 yards more than anyone)
Howard - 5th rd
Murray - 3rd rd
Ajayi - 5th rd
Bell - 2nd rd
2015
AP - 1st rd
Martin - 1st rd
Gurley - 1st rd
McFadden - 1st rd
Ivory - UDFA
2014
Murray - 3rd rd
Bell - 2nd rd
McCoy - 2nd rd
Lynch - 1st rd
Forsett - 7th rd
2013
McCoy - 2nd rd
Forte - 2nd rd
Charles - 3rd rd
Morris - 6th rd
AP - 1st rd
So one season in the last six had 3 mid-late-undrafted RBs in the top 5 of rushing compared to three seasons with only 1. The most glaring trend from these lists is that the players consistently on them are all high picks. Murray (3rd round) is the only mid-late-undrafted RB to appear in the top 5 in multiple seasons over the last 6 years. Compare that to: Bell, McCoy, AP, Elliott and Gurley for RBs selected in rds 1-2 (and 3 of those players are top 10 overall picks).
If you want a consistently good RB, you need to invest a high draft pick in them.
I also believe Barkley at one point, if not still, has the least amount of yards before contact.
Do you really believe Phillip Lindsay would have the same success behind our trash OL? Do you seem him making the same runs as Barkley did?
Come on, perspective. Phillip Lindsay would be a JAG on this team right now because it takes a special talent to do what Barkley did.
You and Fat-Mara in Charlotte have this unusual way of applying lemon juice to my posts and reading something that is not there.
I never compared Lindsay to SB. I do know he hits the hole very quickly and has a really good one cut and go move. But I have no idea how that would convey to the Giants.
But he's been outstanding in Denver and he's been quite a find. They look like they have the making of a nice two headed monster with Lindsay and Freeman.
I think it's without dispute that RB is the position you can get the best production at a cheap cap spend if you shop the market wisely.
Not counting 2018 yet, 12 of the last 19 1st-Team All Pro Running Backs have been 1st-round picks. Not a "quality running back." 1st-Team All Pro.
The three top rushers in 2018 right now are 1st-round picks.
But sure...the very best at the position are routinely found for peanuts...
Your idea of "without dispute" is equal parts ignorant and humorous at the same time.
Also, the NFC RB situation is stacked when neither Christian McCaffrey nor Alvin Kamara make the Pro Bowl.
They should probably add another RB instead of a FB.
Rushing leaders with "mid-rounds, late rounds, undrafted" highlighted:
2018
Elliott - 1st rd
Gurley - 1st rd
Barkley - 1st rd
Mixon - 2nd rd (1st rd if no off field issues)
Lindsay - UDFA
2017
Hunt - 3rd rd (giving benefit of doubt that the 3rd is "mid-rounds", though again a guy that fell due to off field issues and is now unemployed)
Gurley - 1st rd
Bell - 2nd rd
McCoy - 2nd rd
Ingram - 1st rd
2016
Elliott - 1st rd (300 yards more than anyone)
Howard - 5th rd
Murray - 3rd rd
Ajayi - 5th rd
Bell - 2nd rd
2015
AP - 1st rd
Martin - 1st rd
Gurley - 1st rd
McFadden - 1st rd
Ivory - UDFA
2014
Murray - 3rd rd
Bell - 2nd rd
McCoy - 2nd rd
Lynch - 1st rd
Forsett - 7th rd
2013
McCoy - 2nd rd
Forte - 2nd rd
Charles - 3rd rd
Morris - 6th rd
AP - 1st rd
So one season in the last six had 3 mid-late-undrafted RBs in the top 5 of rushing compared to three seasons with only 1. The most glaring trend from these lists is that the players consistently on them are all high picks. Murray (3rd round) is the only mid-late-undrafted RB to appear in the top 5 in multiple seasons over the last 6 years. Compare that to: Bell, McCoy, AP, Elliott and Gurley for RBs selected in rds 1-2 (and 3 of those players are top 10 overall picks).
If you want a consistently good RB, you need to invest a high draft pick in them.
Thanks for that - good stuff.
So using your limited sample, you CAN find highly productive RBs in later rounds. And that is the point.
Toss out leading the league in rushing or making Pro Bowls, the larger point is finding players who can do that job effectively and be a threat. Like we did it twice in 2008 and 2012 winning SBs with Bradshaw and Jacobs. Or how Pittsburgh has done it without Bell. Or the Packers. Or the Patriots. The Bears this year. The current Saints. This year's Colts are finding this formula to their liking this year. The Chiefs.
At the end of the day, both ways work - going with the high pick or finding the later round diamond in the rough. But my way is cheaper and frees up more cap space for other positions.
So using your limited sample, you CAN find highly productive RBs in later rounds. And that is the point.
If that's your point, you can make the exact same point about every position in the NFL. Hell, unlike RBs you can actually find a late round WR that has consistently been in the top 5 in receiving yards.
Even excluding Brady, you can find mid-late-undrafted QBs that were in the top 5 in QB rating (or other QB stats) such as Romo, Prescott, Wilson, Cousins.
The one position where the whole "you can find highly productive XXs in later rounds" argument (mostly) falls apart is pass rusher.
The argument over rushing titles is independent of whether taking a rb very high is justifiable. Who were the running backs on the last 5 super bowl winners?
If that's your point, you can make the exact same point about every position in the NFL. Hell, unlike RBs you can actually find a late round WR that has consistently been in the top 5 in receiving yards.
Even excluding Brady, you can find mid-late-undrafted QBs that were in the top 5 in QB rating (or other QB stats) such as Romo, Prescott, Wilson, Cousins.
The one position where the whole "you can find highly productive XXs in later rounds" argument (mostly) falls apart is pass rusher.
I'm sorry. You are missing the gist of my point.
I thought I stated earlier, and it was implied in my post to you, that it's production AND value. So there is always a big supply of RBs; and if you do your homework you can find one that can provide quality production at a great price.
The argument over rushing titles is independent of whether taking a rb very high is justifiable. Who were the running backs on the last 5 super bowl winners?
Speaking of those Super Bowls, the last five Super-Bowl-winning QBs:
* Nick Foles (3rd-round pick)
* Tom Brady (6th-round pick)
* Peyton Manning's corpse (1st-round pick)
* Tom Brady (6th-round pick)
* Russell Wilson (3rd-round pick)
Well doesn't that say something interesting!
And to boot, he is a great teammate and person as well.
Mind blowing.
And to boot, he is a great teammate and person as well.
Mind blowing.
And deliberately NOT congratulating him (while congratulating Rosas).
Can you imagine how immature these "adults" must be in everyday life?
Quote:
And 2011?
The argument over rushing titles is independent of whether taking a rb very high is justifiable. Who were the running backs on the last 5 super bowl winners?
Speaking of those Super Bowls, the last five Super-Bowl-winning QBs:
* Nick Foles (3rd-round pick)
* Tom Brady (6th-round pick)
* Peyton Manning's corpse (1st-round pick)
* Tom Brady (6th-round pick)
* Russell Wilson (3rd-round pick)
Well doesn't that say something interesting!
Go ahead and pretend Nick Foles is a franchise QB all you want. Go ahead and pretend you can wait till the 6th round for a QB if you want. No part of that makes clinging to exceptions any more realistic or a legitimate strategy.
The point is, the list of the last 5 SB QB's in their draft position is just as unimpressive as the list of the last 5 SB RB's.
But RB's are commonplace working at Trader Joe's.
Peyton - 3
Rivers - 1
Mahomes - 1 (barring if he holds on this year.)
The point is, the list of the last 5 SB QB's in their draft position is just as unimpressive as the list of the last 5 SB RB's.
But RB's are commonplace working at Trader Joe's.
So, what is the point you're trying to prove? That QBs are easy to find? That you can not find a RB to give you quality production without a high pick?
Quote:
that Foles is a franchise QB?
The point is, the list of the last 5 SB QB's in their draft position is just as unimpressive as the list of the last 5 SB RB's.
But RB's are commonplace working at Trader Joe's.
So, what is the point you're trying to prove? That QBs are easy to find? That you can not find a RB to give you quality production without a high pick?
The fact is simple. If you take really good, all-pro type players at any point, your team is going to get better. There is more than one way to win in the NFL. Look at the recent SB winners.
-brady is Brady and deserves all the kudos in the world.
- Seattle won a SB with a game manager, a beast of a RB, and a defense that kicked the shit out of everyone.
- denver won a SB with a QB who could barely throw it 10 yards, and relied on their defense.
- Eagles won with a backup QB, and a dominating OL/DL.
The point is go get the great players. From there, structure your team to what you need. We got a GREAT player in Barkley. Now, lets go and get him what he needs to be a champion as well.
You were the one posting about the RB's from the past 5 SB winners, no?
I'm rebutting the idea there was a point made.
Losing Collins will hurt he is an impact player and when a defense plays well;(as they did three years ago) he’s an all world player when given the opportunity to move around and make plays. Line him up In a traditional safety role and you lose much of that.
Yep good point. I like your wife too
Quote:
In comment 14226343 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that Foles is a franchise QB?
The point is, the list of the last 5 SB QB's in their draft position is just as unimpressive as the list of the last 5 SB RB's.
But RB's are commonplace working at Trader Joe's.
So, what is the point you're trying to prove? That QBs are easy to find? That you can not find a RB to give you quality production without a high pick?
The fact is simple. If you take really good, all-pro type players at any point, your team is going to get better. There is more than one way to win in the NFL. Look at the recent SB winners.
-brady is Brady and deserves all the kudos in the world.
- Seattle won a SB with a game manager, a beast of a RB, and a defense that kicked the shit out of everyone.
- denver won a SB with a QB who could barely throw it 10 yards, and relied on their defense.
- Eagles won with a backup QB, and a dominating OL/DL.
The point is go get the great players. From there, structure your team to what you need. We got a GREAT player in Barkley. Now, lets go and get him what he needs to be a champion as well.
And the championship games were Foles, Bortles, Keenum and a 6th round QB with man boobs.
Not counting 2018 yet, 12 of the last 19 1st-Team All Pro Running Backs have been 1st-round picks. Not a "quality running back." 1st-Team All Pro.
The three top rushers in 2018 right now are 1st-round picks.
But sure...the very best at the position are routinely found for peanuts...
So 7 all-pro RBs out of 19 came from after the 1st round? Not bad at all, if you're the kind of person who really cares about individual honors or rushing titles.
It's been two decades since the winner of the rushing title won the Super Bowl. That was Terrell Davis - a 6th round pick.
Quote:
In comment 14226343 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that Foles is a franchise QB?
The point is, the list of the last 5 SB QB's in their draft position is just as unimpressive as the list of the last 5 SB RB's.
But RB's are commonplace working at Trader Joe's.
So, what is the point you're trying to prove? That QBs are easy to find? That you can not find a RB to give you quality production without a high pick?
The fact is simple. If you take really good, all-pro type players at any point, your team is going to get better. There is more than one way to win in the NFL. Look at the recent SB winners.
-brady is Brady and deserves all the kudos in the world.
- Seattle won a SB with a game manager, a beast of a RB, and a defense that kicked the shit out of everyone.
- denver won a SB with a QB who could barely throw it 10 yards, and relied on their defense.
- Eagles won with a backup QB, and a dominating OL/DL.
The point is go get the great players. From there, structure your team to what you need. We got a GREAT player in Barkley. Now, lets go and get him what he needs to be a champion as well.
Denver won a super bowl by constructing a historic defense yes, and they've been chasing a QB ever since. They can't even find someone competent enough to give you what they got from half-retired Peyton. They've blown picks and salary cap left and right trying to find a capable QB.
To say that the Eagles won with a backup QB is a very cherry picked statement. Carson Wentz was 11-2 with 33 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. This Nick Foles thing has run it's course. They were so confident in Nick Foles until he started the regular season for them, then they couldn't get Wentz back in there fast enough. The Eagles don't get to the playoffs without Wentz too. By any form of evaluation he was an exceptional quarterback.
Seattle won with an inexperienced Russell Wilson, but clearly we know he's not a garden variety QB.
Is there more than one way to win? Sure. Building a great defense can work. We also know the league stacks the rulebook against defense, and we also know the injury rate can make a great defense a year-to-year proposition. How are the Jaguars looking defensively? Yes, they're injured. And also their best players that are still healthy had down to earth years and could no longer support a mediocre QB with lots of turnovers and thus short field scoring opportunities.
And I agree with your plan, let's go hoard great players.
But then don't claw for ultimately meaningless wins in a bad year and slide back in the draft if there's a chance we could have gotten the best pass rusher in the draft, which this team sorely needs. Or the best cover corner. It's burning the candle at both ends.