Overall, I'm actually pretty impressed with Eli's performance this year, considering how bad the team around him is. I'm also not blind to the fact that he's going to be 38 and the Giants need to have a replacement for after 2019 or 2020 (if they extend him for salary cap purposes).
However, only a fool would view Eli as part of the problem and not part of the solution (at least for the short term). Today was a perfect example - he singlehandedly carved up the Colts defense with a shoddy offensive line and ABSOLUTELY NO RUNNING GAME TO SPEAK OF. Yes, he's had a couple bad games (first Redksins game and Titans game) and a few brutally awful moments (INT in 2nd Eagles game) but otherwise he's shown to be a more than capable quarterback and appears to be rejuvenated after a rough 2017 campaign.
I know some of the mouth-breathers and fantasy football geeks on here are trying to run him out of town (strangely without presenting a feasible succession plan) just like they did with Coughlin 3 years ago. Eli is asbolutely not without flaws and deserves his fair share of criticism but he still gives the Giants the best chance to compete and hopefully win next year.
THE BOTTOM LINE: Eli may no longer be a top-tier QB but he's more than servicable and Shurmur has finally figured out how to use him appropriately (i.e. more under center, play-action, rollouts). Many of the players STARTING for the Giants this season would be hard-pressed to make the 53-man roster of most other teams and that's an unfortunate fact. If your heart doesn't break for Eli and the situtation he's been put in for the last several years, you have a very warped view of reality. Get him a competent offensive line and SOME/ANY talent on the defensive side of the ball next year and the Giants can be a playoff team again with Eli at the helm.
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In comment 14233969 Britt in VA said:
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It's as much mental, if not more, than physical.
15 years of experience has value. No matter what you guys say.
If it has value, why are we getting 8 wins the last two year and below average QB play?
Because you are laser focused on one position being the cause, in a game consisting of a million variable and lots of moving parts.
So then what value is his 15 years of experience bringing? Nobody is laser focused on one position, but it makes sense to be trying out parts for the future while fixing the other parts because by the time you fix those parts, Eli will be long gone.
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He just won't make this team win anymore though.
Need to decide what you want...
This team won't win anymore until the rest of the roster improves, including a swiss cheese defense consisting of 50% backup level players and an offensive line that still needs improvement.
A rookie QB doesn't make the team better now, either. He will need those things as well.
A team can get better many ways, and nobody says it has to be NOW. Not trying to do it at QB is a bad business decision too...
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"What do we have to lose?" is not a good business decision.
Neither is going nowhere for the sake of resisting change in such a critical area...
They are not resisting, they just feel the position is stable and there are much bigger fish, ie: glaring holes, to fry.
It's all about allocating and maximizing resources. Just like any other business.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
I could not care less if they cut Eli Manning this offseason and draft his replacement. It's been a good run.
But that's not going to happen, for the multitude of reasons, non emotional, that I've outlined.
But you just keep beating the drum.... "but why!?!?!" despite all of the reasons and evidence being crystal clearly presented right in front of you.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
Most NFL teams would have had a transition plan in place already.
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but don't have the self awareness that "change for the sake of change" and "What do we have to lose" are the emotional takes.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
Most NFL teams would have had a transition plan in place already.
You base that on what, exactly?
Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
-Analyzation of Eli’s play
-Play Lauletta/rookie speculation
-Reactions proclaiming Eli can still play or Eli is done
I take you back to the Friday following the first Philly game where you proclaimed Eli needed to be done here.
Let’s go back to the first WSH game where Dep proclaimed it should be Eli’s last game starting as a Giant.
*THIS* is the problem. Eli’s play is what it is, he is up & down. But, the distraction is enormous. I’m of the belief we won’t win until Mara/Gettleman move on & we establish a new era. It’s over. Eli will be 38 next week & we haven’t won with him. It’s one thing if we’ve been winning, but this is another losing season.
It’s time.
What if it isn't a shit show though? What if with the cap savings from Eli they are able to get a RT? Then draft a C? Then the next offseason the defense improves? It really hurt Watson and Tribusky.
Why does the full roster have to be established? What you ignore is by waiting until the roster is established, you're dealing with a lot of uncertainty. What if you wait and Hernandez gets a career ending injury? Welp, there goes your established oline piece. What if good defensive players don't hit the FA market?
Waiting to change something you can try other options at now, based on the moves you can hypothetically make isn't a good strategy.
-Analyzation of Eli’s play
-Play Lauletta/rookie speculation
-Reactions proclaiming Eli can still play or Eli is done
I take you back to the Friday following the first Philly game where you proclaimed Eli needed to be done here.
Let’s go back to the first WSH game where Dep proclaimed it should be Eli’s last game starting as a Giant.
*THIS* is the problem. Eli’s play is what it is, he is up & down. But, the distraction is enormous. I’m of the belief we won’t win until Mara/Gettleman move on & we establish a new era. It’s over. Eli will be 38 next week & we haven’t won with him. It’s one thing if we’ve been winning, but this is another losing season.
It’s time.
Everything your post is based on fandom. Those things don't permeate the front office as much as you think they do.
The discussion that occurs on BBI is not the discussion that occurs in "Jints Central". Not even close.
I wish the FO would see thru the errors of their ways, but they cannot for whatever reason you want to put on it. But we simply are not going to be a playoff team again with Eli...ever.
If the strategy is to improve everywhere else because we are so "stable" at QB, then enjoy the continuing losing seasons while we get better at some of those positions/get worse in others/stay flat in yet others. They all aren't just going to get better...you know that right?
Commit to other options at QB sooner vs later because staying this course is an easy path to nowhere.
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In comment 14234007 Britt in VA said:
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but don't have the self awareness that "change for the sake of change" and "What do we have to lose" are the emotional takes.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
Most NFL teams would have had a transition plan in place already.
You base that on what, exactly?
Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
The Saints traded a 3rd for Bridgewater, so they are attempting. Rivers and Brees are playing better than Eli has the last 4 years, so it's irrelevant. Brady has won more games this year than the Giants in the last two, so again irrelevant.
The Chiefs did their succession plan right. So did the Ravens. So did Dallas, etc.
It means nothing. It carries zero weight.
Just like my opinion on things moving forward carry zero weight.
I honestly just think I'm reading a tea leaves a little less emotionally than others, ironically.
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In comment 14234021 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14234007 Britt in VA said:
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but don't have the self awareness that "change for the sake of change" and "What do we have to lose" are the emotional takes.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
Most NFL teams would have had a transition plan in place already.
You base that on what, exactly?
Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
The Saints traded a 3rd for Bridgewater, so they are attempting. Rivers and Brees are playing better than Eli has the last 4 years, so it's irrelevant. Brady has won more games this year than the Giants in the last two, so again irrelevant.
The Chiefs did their succession plan right. So did the Ravens. So did Dallas, etc.
What do you mean irrelevant? So because Brady is playing decently at 41, and Brees is playing decently at nearly 40 means they don't need a transition?
Ben Roethlisberger contemplated retirement publicly last year and gets injured every other week, but he's playing well right now so it's irrelevant?
Do you understand what having a transition "plan" actually means?
Let’s go back to the first WSH game where Dep proclaimed it should be Eli’s last game starting as a Giant.
*THIS* is the problem. Eli’s play is what it is, he is up & down. But, the distraction is enormous. I’m of the belief we won’t win until Mara/Gettleman move on & we establish a new era. It’s over. Eli will be 38 next week & we haven’t won with him. It’s one thing if we’ve been winning, but this is another losing season.
It’s time.
short memories, except on the good games.
The path to nowhere...
Check you guys later.
Guessing the Giants brass will do the loyal, uncontroversial thing is like guessing the sun will rise.
Guessing an aging QB on a team with talent deficits all over won't win a lot of games ain't so shocking either.
Privately, and this is cynical, but I suspect the Giants brass is letting Manning play stop-gap as they build up the talent, construct a functional roster, and acquire his replacement.
I don't suspect the Giants see a winner emerging until 2020, and are letting Manning take the beating in the meantime.
Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
What the hell do these guys/ages have anything to do with what Eli is doing for the Giants? They have no relationship whatsoever to how you assess our QB...none.
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Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
What the hell do these guys/ages have anything to do with what Eli is doing for the Giants? They have no relationship whatsoever to how you assess our QB...none.
That was a direct response to a distinct statement. Don't clip it to make it look like something it's not.
Now I really do have to sign off for awhile.
Guessing the Giants brass will do the loyal, uncontroversial thing is like guessing the sun will rise.
Guessing an aging QB on a team with talent deficits all over won't win a lot of games ain't so shocking either.
Privately, and this is cynical, but I suspect the Giants brass is letting Manning play stop-gap as they build up the talent, construct a functional roster, and acquire his replacement.
I don't suspect the Giants see a winner emerging until 2020, and are letting Manning take the beating in the meantime.
If this strategy is true, then it is the worst case scenario and Terps was right. They don't have a plan. They will waste Barkley and OBJs prime years while they find and then ramp a QB.
Eli is not playing so badly that the Giants should just dump him just for the sake of it. I agree with you that they should move on. I merely think that they should do so in a rational fashion.
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In comment 14234029 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14234021 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14234007 Britt in VA said:
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but don't have the self awareness that "change for the sake of change" and "What do we have to lose" are the emotional takes.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
Most NFL teams would have had a transition plan in place already.
You base that on what, exactly?
Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
The Saints traded a 3rd for Bridgewater, so they are attempting. Rivers and Brees are playing better than Eli has the last 4 years, so it's irrelevant. Brady has won more games this year than the Giants in the last two, so again irrelevant.
The Chiefs did their succession plan right. So did the Ravens. So did Dallas, etc.
What do you mean irrelevant? So because Brady is playing decently at 41, and Brees is playing decently at nearly 40 means they don't need a transition?
Ben Roethlisberger contemplated retirement publicly last year and gets injured every other week, but he's playing well right now so it's irrelevant?
Do you understand what having a transition "plan" actually means?
I didn't say the Steelers were doing right did I? Brady is winning games so why would they make a change? They've also spent 2nd rounders and developed QBs, that they end up trading, in anticipation of Brady declining.
You ignored the fact that the Saints gave up a premium pick in case Brees declined. If Bree's is playing "decently" with 32 tds and 5 int and the #1 seed in the NFC, what would you categorize Eli's play as?
If this strategy is true, then it is the worst case scenario and Terps was right. They don't have a plan. They will waste Barkley and OBJs prime years while they find and then ramp a QB.
If the Giants pick a QB in April, and steadily collect talent and depth, this offseason, what's so misguided about that?
In 2004 the same arguments were made, but with more urgency, when it came to Toomer, Barber and Shockey.
It will take a few years, it sucks but it's true. Hopefully it will take less time for a new QB than it did Manning.
The Giants are long shot to win anything in 2019. I think a very cogent plan is to draft a QB, make a few solid UFA acquisitions, cull the big cap numbers of underachievers, and use the 9 remaining picks to stockpile depth.
Let Manning take the beating like Warner did, and bring the new guy along in the 2nd half of the season.
I mean KL could be the Giants succession plan, but it sure doesn't feel like it currently.
Eli played excellent on Sunday & the offense played a very solid game, but what happened? Eli threw a late pick trying to get chunk yards and everyone lost their shit. That’s the problem & it’s no fault of Eli.
if they draft an edge rusher in the first or one of the stud dt i won’t be faulting them, but if a touted qb prospect is there and they choose an interior guard I will be somewhat amazed.
waiting for a perfect storm is not a cogent strategy. it will also cause a new qb to burn a season or two of beckham and barkley a year or two behind taking one now. now that’s not to say eli’s replacement comes in 2019 but i sure hope it’s because the value and options at other positions was better than the value and options at qb. not because they need to get everything else right. The Giants were not set everywhere in 79 nor in 04 when they drafted their franchise qbs.
The Giants teams that i watched that were good had ascending talents or established talents playing together on offense and defense.
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If this strategy is true, then it is the worst case scenario and Terps was right. They don't have a plan. They will waste Barkley and OBJs prime years while they find and then ramp a QB.
If the Giants pick a QB in April, and steadily collect talent and depth, this offseason, what's so misguided about that?
In 2004 the same arguments were made, but with more urgency, when it came to Toomer, Barber and Shockey.
It will take a few years, it sucks but it's true. Hopefully it will take less time for a new QB than it did Manning.
The Giants are long shot to win anything in 2019. I think a very cogent plan is to draft a QB, make a few solid UFA acquisitions, cull the big cap numbers of underachievers, and use the 9 remaining picks to stockpile depth.
Let Manning take the beating like Warner did, and bring the new guy along in the 2nd half of the season.
I personally think that as long as Eli is on the roster, he will continue to start and take the vast majority of the practice snaps. That and having a legend on the team casting a shadow over you, make it difficult for a young QB to develop. Watching Eli be the consummate professional only helps so much.
I personally think that as long as Eli is on the roster, he will continue to start and take the vast majority of the practice snaps. That and having a legend on the team casting a shadow over you, make it difficult for a young QB to develop. Watching Eli be the consummate professional only helps so much.
If we're talking likely, yes I agree. Like I posted above, it's always the same bet the Giants will do the safe, loyal thing.
No whether it's by design or not, they are letting Manning take the beating.
And it's going to happen a little next year too. The chances of the Giants dropping 3 new OL into the mix, Manning being another year older, and it working out neatly day one, is naive.
It rarely ends well......
I wish the FO would see thru the errors of their ways, but they cannot for whatever reason you want to put on it. But we simply are not going to be a playoff team again with Eli...ever.
If the strategy is to improve everywhere else because we are so "stable" at QB, then enjoy the continuing losing seasons while we get better at some of those positions/get worse in others/stay flat in yet others. They all aren't just going to get better...you know that right?
Commit to other options at QB sooner vs later because staying this course is an easy path to nowhere.
It rarely ends well......
I agree -- Whether it comes from a cynical plan or not -- I don't like seeing Manning get his ass kicked on the way out. But that's a strong possibility.
Really think about 3 new lineman coming in next year. Now hopefully they are better players. But they will have growing pains.
Hernandez had a tough start. Solder had a really, really tough start. Omameh couldn't cut it.
So what if the Giants 1) spend a 2nd round pick on a RG 2) sign the best UFA RT 3) sign a starting center from a playoff team to a 3 year/15M contract.
And what if that ends up just like this year, takes 8 weeks to gel and one of the moves is a dud.
The concept of "mobile" gets tossed around like it should be a primary quality in a QB. But maybe it's just one tool in the arsenal for surviving if there are times the line can't do their job.
We've seen pretty regularly 1) Manning doesn't have that tool 2) there will be times when the line can't do their job.
We've seen pretty regularly 1) Manning doesn't have that tool 2) there will be times when the line can't do their job.
When these arguments happen, people usually conflate mobile with wanting a Vick or RG3. A Darnold or Foles type mobile is all we're asking for.
The other is another year or two the qb of the future is not being manufactured and getting closer to peak play to maximize beckham barkley and engram excellent talents the Giants can make a run with. probably the bigger cost to the fans and the team.
The idea the Giants have to wait for a perfect prospect smells of Eli protectionism. i get drafting Barkley and all, but the idea no one is sold on the prospects was a different seperate argument in a draft full of them.
waiting until 2020 or 2021 is possible but is a very risky proposition as well. what if other teams are jockeying? if the prospect and the pick align this year in 19 they should pull the trigger.
Eli is not playing so badly that the Giants should just dump him just for the sake of it. I agree with you that they should move on. I merely think that they should do so in a rational fashion.
So do I. What am I suggesting that is not rational?
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In comment 14234029 Britt in VA said:
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Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
What the hell do these guys/ages have anything to do with what Eli is doing for the Giants? They have no relationship whatsoever to how you assess our QB...none.
That was a direct response to a distinct statement. Don't clip it to make it look like something it's not.
Now I really do have to sign off for awhile.
Take your time. :-)
The same reason why the Giants are going nowhere too. It is not reasonable to keep trotting him out there and expect a winning result. He is no longer a winning QB and hasn’t been for a few years now.
Now the excuse to not shed him is to focus on other positions? Ok great. Quite the strategy.
What’s next year’s excuse?
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I personally think that as long as Eli is on the roster, he will continue to start and take the vast majority of the practice snaps. That and having a legend on the team casting a shadow over you, make it difficult for a young QB to develop. Watching Eli be the consummate professional only helps so much.
If we're talking likely, yes I agree. Like I posted above, it's always the same bet the Giants will do the safe, loyal thing.
No whether it's by design or not, they are letting Manning take the beating.
And it's going to happen a little next year too. The chances of the Giants dropping 3 new OL into the mix, Manning being another year older, and it working out neatly day one, is naive.
I just believe Eli is good enough to be mediocre at this point. So if you surround him with enough talent, the Giants will live in the 6-9 win total QB paradox. WHere acquiring the QB becomes that much more difficult.
If they draft a QB in April and miss, then Barkley's rookie contract has gone and he must be paid.
If they wait until 2020, that QB has to ramp so that's really 4 years away from looking at competing. And with an average team, it would be a HUGE resource suck to acquire him.
In essence, they have to hit on a QB this draft, in a draft considered devoid of talent, picking behind other teams that also need QBs. Dire straits imo.
They brought in Smith last year, the type stop gap wannabe QB that's usually available, gave him a tryout, and people screamed bloody murder. People laughed at the Vikings and Redskins for paying what they did for so-so QBs. Those two situations are the most likely veteran alternatives to Eli. The draft this year isn't looking too good for QBs. More likely to draft a Sanchez than a Mahommes. That's the reality for replacing Eli this year. You can scream 'dump Eli' all you want, but the 'no matter what' is likely to be a shitshow.
If Eli comes back, it doesn't automatically mean the Giants don't want to move on, and aren't trying. It just means they've decided he's the best option right now rather than throwing away resources on players who aren't likely to be any better. They may be wrong.
The story is not written yet but the public commitment by this regime and the cut of Webb seemed to imply they meant what they said about years left. We will learn a lot in next few months...../
In essence, they have to hit on a QB this draft, in a draft considered devoid of talent, picking behind other teams that also need QBs. Dire straits imo.
Jim - I totally agree this is the year draft Manning's replacement.
I have a little bit of a different view on QB, I feel there are a 3 or 4 guys in every draft that can be franchise guys, and it's not always just the blue chip, big measurable guys.
I look at Deshaun Watson as a great example. I want a guy who has the arm to make most of the throws, the wheels to make up for when the line fails, and the football IQ to grasp a system.
But overall I want a cerebral and innovative HC, a patient GM, and ownership who spends. If you have the latter, you don't need a blue chip. You can succeed with a red chip type QB.
The worst team to be is like Detroit. Stafford is a dynamite player, who will never, ever win because of the rotating dysfunction of that team.
Contrast that with Baltimore. They got a ring and a run of success out of a less than blue chip guy in Flacco, and now they are in the hunt with a less than blue chip guy in Jackson. I want that.
my guess is the Giants will draft a qb more mobile than Manning or Simms (already have with Lauletta--although the original Simms was fairly spry when young prior to injury...:))
my guess is the Giants will draft a qb more mobile than Manning or Simms (already have with Lauletta--although the original Simms was fairly spry when young prior to injury...:))
Exactly. I just want functional
They brought in Smith last year, the type stop gap wannabe QB that's usually available, gave him a tryout, and people screamed bloody murder. People laughed at the Vikings and Redskins for paying what they did for so-so QBs. Those two situations are the most likely veteran alternatives to Eli. The draft this year isn't looking too good for QBs. More likely to draft a Sanchez than a Mahommes. That's the reality for replacing Eli this year. You can scream 'dump Eli' all you want, but the 'no matter what' is likely to be a shitshow.
If Eli comes back, it doesn't automatically mean the Giants don't want to move on, and aren't trying. It just means they've decided he's the best option right now rather than throwing away resources on players who aren't likely to be any better. They may be wrong.
Apologize if you read “no matter what” as view is less than that. I do not find it reasonable that we can’t replace Eli and get some good with some bad in his replacement. We get that now with Eli and it’s not getting better so maybe some other options can give Shurmur more flexibility if we don’t need a QB to win games but at lest be more athletic and mobile to extend drives and score in the red zone. Eli is a sitting duck and not interested in hanging in pocket or escaping trouble and every one of those plays could go better with a different option.
Again, not trying is an easy path to nowhere...
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
well said and I completely agree, people seem to let their loyalty to Eli cloud what is clearly there to see, actually its not being fair to Eli to expect him to be any better at his age, and one more thing, his father and brother were both very good NFL QBs and they should be telling him, its time...