Overall, I'm actually pretty impressed with Eli's performance this year, considering how bad the team around him is. I'm also not blind to the fact that he's going to be 38 and the Giants need to have a replacement for after 2019 or 2020 (if they extend him for salary cap purposes).
However, only a fool would view Eli as part of the problem and not part of the solution (at least for the short term). Today was a perfect example - he singlehandedly carved up the Colts defense with a shoddy offensive line and ABSOLUTELY NO RUNNING GAME TO SPEAK OF. Yes, he's had a couple bad games (first Redksins game and Titans game) and a few brutally awful moments (INT in 2nd Eagles game) but otherwise he's shown to be a more than capable quarterback and appears to be rejuvenated after a rough 2017 campaign.
I know some of the mouth-breathers and fantasy football geeks on here are trying to run him out of town (strangely without presenting a feasible succession plan) just like they did with Coughlin 3 years ago. Eli is asbolutely not without flaws and deserves his fair share of criticism but he still gives the Giants the best chance to compete and hopefully win next year.
THE BOTTOM LINE: Eli may no longer be a top-tier QB but he's more than servicable and Shurmur has finally figured out how to use him appropriately (i.e. more under center, play-action, rollouts). Many of the players STARTING for the Giants this season would be hard-pressed to make the 53-man roster of most other teams and that's an unfortunate fact. If your heart doesn't break for Eli and the situtation he's been put in for the last several years, you have a very warped view of reality. Get him a competent offensive line and SOME/ANY talent on the defensive side of the ball next year and the Giants can be a playoff team again with Eli at the helm.
We need to add OLB, FS to the defense to start.
This team is not too far off. Add 2 more OL starters, a couple of front 5 guys and a legit FS on defense and you might actually compete.
Eli cannot carry this team in his back but he tried today.
We need to add OLB, FS to the defense to start.
This team is not too far off. Add 2 more OL starters, a couple of front 5 guys and a legit FS on defense and you might actually compete.
Eli cannot carry this team in his back but he tried today.
Based on the last 5 weeks, you believe Jamon Brown is a player worth giving a contract?
Brown has clearly been an upgrade over Jerry and Omameh. Granted that's a low bar.
Before you run him off the team, I think he needs to be evaluated with NFL quality players on either side of him. Right now the players on either side of him don't belong on an NFL roster, let alone starting.
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
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Brown stinks and needs to be upgraded.
Brown has clearly been an upgrade over Jerry and Omameh. Granted that's a low bar.
Before you run him off the team, I think he needs to be evaluated with NFL quality players on either side of him. Right now the players on either side of him don't belong on an NFL roster, let alone starting.
Correct. Brown has been an upgrade over Omameh (who was dreadful) but he's still a below average player. The Giants can and should do better at RG. Wheeler could be a good depth player but not someone you want starting at RT.
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Brown stinks and needs to be upgraded.
Brown has clearly been an upgrade over Jerry and Omameh. Granted that's a low bar.
Before you run him off the team, I think he needs to be evaluated with NFL quality players on either side of him. Right now the players on either side of him don't belong on an NFL roster, let alone starting.
As an UFA that's going to be tough. He'll reasonably command a similar contract to what Omameh drew. Is that worth it?
Anyone who views this entirely through the prism of how well he's played this season is ignoring half of the facts, at best.
Draft a QB - if they think that player is the deserving to be the next guy - and let him learn from Eli for a year.
And if you don't think that QB exists in 2019, wait until 2020 to draft him and turn the keys over to him then......
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
I respect a difference in opinion but what do you mean by "these games". Of the 15 games this season, the giants have been in all of them save for the first Philly game and the Titans game (and the 2nd half of the Saints game). That's 12 games that the Giants were competitive in and were in a position to win.
Eli has been more of the reason the Giants have won 5 games than he has been part of the reason they lost 10, plain and simple.
True upgrades at C and RT will really make a difference.
The situation is very clear. He can still make throws and reads when he is given time. He is still the least mobile Qb in the league and extremely vulnerable to pressure. He still can make some really awful decisions, even when he has a good game like today.
Improve the line and hope his skill players stay healthy and this offense can go down the field. Anything less, and it is very difficult to win with Eli.
True upgrades at C and RT will really make a difference.
What's a reasonable contract for Brown?
yes he will start, but the idea he’s not mostly done is not bogus, it’s very real sorry. this is the latest version of the haters post.
he probably will still be able to be good for 2-4 games in three years. it’s not good enough.
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Brown stinks and needs to be upgraded.
Brown has clearly been an upgrade over Jerry and Omameh. Granted that's a low bar.
Before you run him off the team, I think he needs to be evaluated with NFL quality players on either side of him. Right now the players on either side of him don't belong on an NFL roster, let alone starting.
This.
The reasons you'd consider keeping Brown:
1) The line has resembled an actual NFL line since he entered the lineup. The line is still horrible, but it's not a line that a college team could destroy like the line was the first half of the season.
2) Giants need to upgrade center and RT in the worst way. The line also has no depth.
3) Brown will most likely be a cheap resign which offers value - at least for another year.
If a really good RG is available, sure, replace Brown, but I think it's strongly worth rolling the dice with him at RG next year.
I respect a difference in opinion but what do you mean by "these games". Of the 15 games this season, the giants have been in all of them save for the first Philly game and the Titans game (and the 2nd half of the Saints game). That's 12 games that the Giants were competitive in and were in a position to win.
Eli has been more of the reason the Giants have won 5 games than he has been part of the reason they lost 10, plain and simple.
Games where Eli looks like he's 32 years old.
While I don't agree with it, if we go with your position that Eli has been good/good+ this year, at his age why should we expect that to continue?
You kinda of lose some credibility with,...... I Don t know,....fair minded people.
Eli might not be done, and at times can be effective is a valid assessment.
However an opposing opinion that he most certainly has been part of the problem is as well.
Rich Gannon today said after talking to the Giants he is certain Eli will be the quarterback next season, and also convinced they will be drafting a quarterback.
Sounds good to me.
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
You hit the nail on the head. If we run this thing back, we are going to be terrible again next season. No one seems to get that.
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by the Sentimentalists:
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
You hit the nail on the head. If we run this thing back, we are going to be terrible again next season. No one seems to get that.
There's very little chance that next year is a 5 win season assuming we can fix the OL with a good center and RT, and get some pass rushers with a capable FS.
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In comment 14231638 bw in dc said:
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by the Sentimentalists:
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
You hit the nail on the head. If we run this thing back, we are going to be terrible again next season. No one seems to get that.
There's very little chance that next year is a 5 win season assuming we can fix the OL with a good center and RT, and get some pass rushers with a capable FS.
How sure are you of that?
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In comment 14231672 Giants34 said:
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In comment 14231638 bw in dc said:
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by the Sentimentalists:
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
You hit the nail on the head. If we run this thing back, we are going to be terrible again next season. No one seems to get that.
There's very little chance that next year is a 5 win season assuming we can fix the OL with a good center and RT, and get some pass rushers with a capable FS.
How sure are you of that?
About 99.9 percent. Good football teams have good offensive lines and can get after the passer. The Giants have neither, and it makes the team look worse than it actually is at the skill positions.
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If you upgrade the C and RT, That's terrific. Give Brown a chance in 2019 and then either drop him or let him be a backup.
True upgrades at C and RT will really make a difference.
What's a reasonable contract for Brown?
I'd guess about 1 year $2M. He's currently making about $900,000 and no one's beating down his door.
Eli is a game manager at this point. He can still make some plays but he’s not a top tier QB any more - in fact, even during his “good” three quarters today he was missing opportunities for bigger plays (opportunities that I like to think he would make 5 years ago). And his skills will continue to gradually deteriorate with each year.
Unfortunately, Eli is a game manager at this point. He can still make some plays but he’s not a top tier QB any more - in fact, even during his “good” three quarters today he was missing opportunities for bigger plays (opportunities that I like to think he would make 5 years ago). And his skills will continue to gradually deteriorate with each year.
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In comment 14231659 mrvax said:
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If you upgrade the C and RT, That's terrific. Give Brown a chance in 2019 and then either drop him or let him be a backup.
True upgrades at C and RT will really make a difference.
What's a reasonable contract for Brown?
I'd guess about 1 year $2M. He's currently making about $900,000 and no one's beating down his door.
I think Brown will get a multi-year offer from someone. Especially considering the contract Omameh received. I won't be surprised if he gets more than Omameh got.
Unfortunately, Eli is a game manager at this point. He can still make some plays but he’s not a top tier QB any more - in fact, even during his “good” three quarters today he was missing opportunities for bigger plays (opportunities that I like to think he would make 5 years ago). And his skills will continue to gradually deteriorate with each year.
So a 23M QB should be able to do more with a less than perfect roster? Someone should inform Matthew Stafford and Matt Ryan. Neither of them are making the playoffs this year either.
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All this other talent we need to add for Eli to be successful at this stage in his career is going to cost money - at least a good chunk of it will. We probably can’t create a bulletproof roster AND pay Eli $23M. A $23M QB SHOULD be able to make do with a less than perfect roster.
Unfortunately, Eli is a game manager at this point. He can still make some plays but he’s not a top tier QB any more - in fact, even during his “good” three quarters today he was missing opportunities for bigger plays (opportunities that I like to think he would make 5 years ago). And his skills will continue to gradually deteriorate with each year.
So a 23M QB should be able to do more with a less than perfect roster? Someone should inform Matthew Stafford and Matt Ryan. Neither of them are making the playoffs this year either.
Neither is Aaron and most likely Ben.
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In comment 14231630 Marty866b said:
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Brown stinks and needs to be upgraded.
Brown has clearly been an upgrade over Jerry and Omameh. Granted that's a low bar.
Before you run him off the team, I think he needs to be evaluated with NFL quality players on either side of him. Right now the players on either side of him don't belong on an NFL roster, let alone starting.
This.
The reasons you'd consider keeping Brown:
1) The line has resembled an actual NFL line since he entered the lineup. The line is still horrible, but it's not a line that a college team could destroy like the line was the first half of the season.
2) Giants need to upgrade center and RT in the worst way. The line also has no depth.
3) Brown will most likely be a cheap resign which offers value - at least for another year.
If a really good RG is available, sure, replace Brown, but I think it's strongly worth rolling the dice with him at RG next year.
THank You... My feelings precisely...
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In comment 14231638 bw in dc said:
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by the Sentimentalists:
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
You hit the nail on the head. If we run this thing back, we are going to be terrible again next season. No one seems to get that.
There's very little chance that next year is a 5 win season assuming we can fix the OL with a good center and RT, and get some pass rushers with a capable FS.
That's kind of a tall order for one off season, don't ya think?
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In comment 14231662 christian said:
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In comment 14231659 mrvax said:
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If you upgrade the C and RT, That's terrific. Give Brown a chance in 2019 and then either drop him or let him be a backup.
True upgrades at C and RT will really make a difference.
What's a reasonable contract for Brown?
I'd guess about 1 year $2M. He's currently making about $900,000 and no one's beating down his door.
I think Brown will get a multi-year offer from someone. Especially considering the contract Omameh received. I won't be surprised if he gets more than Omameh got.
Agreed, my guess is 3 years for about 12 million. And that's is not a big contract for OL these days.
Unfortunately, Eli is a game manager at this point. He can still make some plays but he’s not a top tier QB any more - in fact, even during his “good” three quarters today he was missing opportunities for bigger plays (opportunities that I like to think he would make 5 years ago). And his skills will continue to gradually deteriorate with each year.
Vernon’s cap hit is 19.5 million next year. Where’s the faux outrage over his cap number?
The Giants don’t need Eli’s money for anything. If they do, cut Vernon.
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In comment 14231672 Giants34 said:
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In comment 14231638 bw in dc said:
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by the Sentimentalists:
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
You hit the nail on the head. If we run this thing back, we are going to be terrible again next season. No one seems to get that.
There's very little chance that next year is a 5 win season assuming we can fix the OL with a good center and RT, and get some pass rushers with a capable FS.
That's kind of a tall order for one off season, don't ya think?
Not really when you consider the draft produced 4 capable players -- one superstar in Barkley, and what looks to be capable players in Hernandez, Hill, and Carter.
Then, you know there will be moves to clear space (Vernon and Jenkins).... possibly an Eli re-structure?
The fucking guy is 38. It's over.
We're lockstep in this. Next year he'll be 38 going on 39. Things don't get better from here, as you said earlier; they only get worse. We had one season - ONE - of PO football since the SB, and that was defense and ODB slants driven. The days are done where Eli can carry this team.
Darnold is transforming into a franchise QB before our eyes. We are going to have a front row seat to it for a long time. As good as Barkley is - and he may be the best RB ever - I fear we are going nowhere fast because we have no QB
I don't think Eli will hold them back overall (some games he will lose vs an as of now unknown alternative and some games he will very likely be better than any rookie available slots 4-12).
The problem with this transition is that we will have a rookie learning in 2020.
Which means BBI will be heavy with the unreasonable expectations until 2021.
Darnold is transforming into a franchise QB before our eyes. We are going to have a front row seat to it for a long time. As good as Barkley is - and he may be the best RB ever - I fear we are going nowhere fast because we have no QB
Since the debacle in Miami a month ago, Darnold has been outstanding.
That’s what you want - to see your new QB peaking late after hitting the wall.
The Jets job is going to be a good one.
Just like other positions this current roster the team needs to move on. They have great skill positions and some youth on D but this team is 2-3 years from being a winnng franchise. Eli has done all he can and we can’t expect perfect teams to make him better Call me a mouth breather if you want but I remember Simms, Hoss and Collins all getting us to SBs and I am here to tell you this feeling that you have regarding Eli will pass. There is an end to his story. But it may not be a fairy tale ending.
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In comment 14231675 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 14231672 Giants34 said:
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In comment 14231638 bw in dc said:
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by the Sentimentalists:
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
You hit the nail on the head. If we run this thing back, we are going to be terrible again next season. No one seems to get that.
There's very little chance that next year is a 5 win season assuming we can fix the OL with a good center and RT, and get some pass rushers with a capable FS.
That's kind of a tall order for one off season, don't ya think?
Not really when you consider the draft produced 4 capable players -- one superstar in Barkley, and what looks to be capable players in Hernandez, Hill, and Carter.
Then, you know there will be moves to clear space (Vernon and Jenkins).... possibly an Eli re-structure?
I appreciate your optimism... I hope you are right that they can find that many players in one off season. I have my doubts though...
I don't think Eli will hold them back overall (some games he will lose vs an as of now unknown alternative and some games he will very likely be better than any rookie available slots 4-12).
The problem with this transition is that we will have a rookie learning in 2020.
Which means BBI will be heavy with the unreasonable expectations until 2021.
Agreed, 2021 is the first year we can hope to have hope, and even then we have to make all the right moves, and have nothing disastrous happen.
Just like other positions this current roster the team needs to move on. They have great skill positions and some youth on D but this team is 2-3 years from being a winnng franchise. Eli has done all he can and we can’t expect perfect teams to make him better Call me a mouth breather if you want but I remember Simms, Hoss and Collins all getting us to SBs and I am here to tell you this feeling that you have regarding Eli will pass. There is an end to his story. But it may not be a fairy tale ending.
There now exists a feeling on BBI that Eli needs a perfect cast around him to succeed. I’m not even asking for perfect. I’m asking for an offensive line that is merely above average. I’m asking for a defense that makes one stop when it counts and can actually sack a quarterback on a somewhat regular basis. And the great news is, that if we get those two things, we make it a much easier situation for Justin Herbert, Dwayne Haskins, Tua Tagavoila, Jake Fromm, or whoever succeeds Eli.
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All this other talent we need to add for Eli to be successful at this stage in his career is going to cost money - at least a good chunk of it will. We probably can’t create a bulletproof roster AND pay Eli $23M. A $23M QB SHOULD be able to make do with a less than perfect roster.
Unfortunately, Eli is a game manager at this point. He can still make some plays but he’s not a top tier QB any more - in fact, even during his “good” three quarters today he was missing opportunities for bigger plays (opportunities that I like to think he would make 5 years ago). And his skills will continue to gradually deteriorate with each year.
Vernon’s cap hit is 19.5 million next year. Where’s the faux outrage over his cap number?
The Giants don’t need Eli’s money for anything. If they do, cut Vernon.
Cut Vernon too. Who’s saying we must keep Vernon? If the Giants brass thinks Vernon has years left (he just turned 28) maybe restructure him for a more cap friendly/cuttable in a year deal. If not, cut him and spend the cap money on better, more reliable talent. Or roll the cap money over.
How sorry was this OL Eli endured? (Dangerfield voice) James Brewer managed to stay on the roster through his entire rookie contract! Not only were Reese and Ross clueless about OL, their vanity kept absolute garbage losers in roster spots. Guys who had no business being on a NFL squad.
This record must be owned by Eli and is part of his career. He is now also football old and the team is still losing. It is perfectly reasonable for the Giants to make a move at QB and go in a different direction.
What seems false to me is the narrative that Eli has been the central reason this team is in the shitter. That if only the Giants had a younger more mobile QB all the team's problems would be gone. Wins would pile up once the anchor that is Eli is gone. That Eli has been garbage for years. A game manager for years, which is not true. Eli and the passing game was the strength of this team.
With this new HC the offense has become a real unit again. Of course having Barkley helps, but over all these seasons it is really only 2013, where the roster collapse the team is STILL trying to correct occurred, and the Mcadoo era where the Eli offense has sucked.
So I agree the Eli can't play narrative or the Eli is yhe albatross around this team's neck and a younger mobile QB is the cure is garbage. If you do think that then do bkot worry, you will suffer only one more season or maybe one more week and you will have your wish for a shiny new QB.
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Oh yea many on this forum. Eli can still play, the problem is people give up and said he done every time he has a bad game. Do many he realize how bad and shitty the Giants Oline was??! The Oline is improving, but still needs better players to really see what Eli and this offense can really do.
How sorry was this OL Eli endured? (Dangerfield voice) James Brewer managed to stay on the roster through his entire rookie contract! Not only were Reese and Ross clueless about OL, their vanity kept absolute garbage losers in roster spots. Guys who had no business being on a NFL squad.
Even this year, the Giants cut the s tree starting right side of the line out of camp. Solder was horrific many games early as well.
+1000
An inconvenient truth my friend.
This record must be owned by Eli and is part of his career. He is now also football old and the team is still losing. It is perfectly reasonable for the Giants to make a move at QB and go in a different direction.
What seems false to me is the narrative that Eli has been the central reason this team is in the shitter. That if only the Giants had a younger more mobile QB all the team's problems would be gone. Wins would pile up once the anchor that is Eli is gone. That Eli has been garbage for years. A game manager for years, which is not true. Eli and the passing game was the strength of this team.
With this new HC the offense has become a real unit again. Of course having Barkley helps, but over all these seasons it is really only 2013, where the roster collapse the team is STILL trying to correct occurred, and the Mcadoo era where the Eli offense has sucked.
So I agree the Eli can't play narrative or the Eli is yhe albatross around this team's neck and a younger mobile QB is the cure is garbage. If you do think that then do bkot worry, you will suffer only one more season or maybe one more week and you will have your wish for a shiny new QB.
Well said... great post!
Next, if you're interested in winning next season, you can be pretty sure you're not going to do it with any of the qb's who will be available when we pick in next year's draft. So you'll have to sign a veteran qb. Anyone who's any good will want a multi-year contract over $20 million per year. So you'll be paying at least $10 million more for a qb who probably won't be as good as Eli. Certainly not much better.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand?
I lived through the "fly a blimp over the stadium era" This team is not as bad as some of those teams
Next, if you're interested in winning next season, you can be pretty sure you're not going to do it with any of the qb's who will be available when we pick in next year's draft. So you'll have to sign a veteran qb. Anyone who's any good will want a multi-year contract over $20 million per year. So you'll be paying at least $10 million more for a qb who probably won't be as good as Eli. Certainly not much better.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand?
$23,200,000 Cap Number
12.2% Cap %
$6,200,000 Dead Money &
$17,000,000 Cap Savings, pre June 1
https://overthecap.com/player/eli-manning/865/
If they bring him back, ask him to take a pay cut if he wants to be here in 2019, not a re-structure.
I know I would like them to move on, but...
I would not agree with the premise that any QB brought in as a free agent, would command over 20 mill.
Just to give you one example, Bridgewater made 5 mill.
this season, and has been holding a clipboard all year!
Whether he can still play is not the issue. He is old. He is slow, immobile, needs near perfect protection and has always been inconsistent in his accuracy. Let him stay if necessary but restructure the contract and draft or get in free agency his replacement. By no measure is Eli worth the money anymore and it is past time for the Giants to get his successor. People are ready to get rid of Jenkins, OV and Solder--and for good reason with their performance not matching their contracts.
It will take 2-3 years for a replacement to develop. Meanwhile,Beckham is going to get older. Barkley will get older, as will Shepard and Engram. How many more losing seasons do you want?
Whether he can still play is not the issue. He is old. He is slow, immobile, needs near perfect protection and has always been inconsistent in his accuracy. Let him stay if necessary but restructure the contract and draft or get in free agency his replacement. By no measure is Eli worth the money anymore and it is past time for the Giants to get his successor. People are ready to get rid of Jenkins, OV and Solder--and for good reason with their performance not matching their contracts.
It will take 2-3 years for a replacement to develop. Meanwhile,Beckham is going to get older. Barkley will get older, as will Shepard and Engram. How many more losing seasons do you want?
You don't re-structure a 38 y/o QB with one year left
on his deal...You ask him to take a pay cut, period.
I hope we don't pick one this year, just because we need one, and he is not really there...
He’s playinf next to wheeler and a revolving door of garbage at center. Thank god you are not an nfl scout
Eli has shown that he can be a stopgap QB until we can find a replacement. no one is saying not to look for the replacement.
Bonehead interceptions have been part of Eli's game from the beginning. Him not being able to carry the team is nothing new, hence all those years of not making the playoffs or going one and done. Love the 2 rings, but face it, the guy so many think is a HOF has always had some serious warts. But he has been a good QB, and still is good enough to hold the reins until we find someone better to replace him.
Last year doesn't matter. Whether the Giants were blinded by the brilliance of Barkley, or whether they truly weren't sold on any of the draft prospects, that's in the past. You don't draft a QB now because you made a mistake last year. You draft one if he's worth drafting.
When you think about the fact that Indy was challenging Eli to beat them by putting 8 men the box every time.. and Eli has success but never really threatened them enough to back off and many of his good plays were off play action.. it tells you that other teams are daring him to beat them and he is unable to do this.. he is barely a game manager now..Numbers look good yesterday but if he was truly having a good game yesterday it didn't register with Indy's defense..
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He has his good games but they are becoming less frequent. He can’t create on his own and his deep ball is suspect. I’ve been a long time Eli homer, but I’m ready to move on.
When you think about the fact that Indy was challenging Eli to beat them by putting 8 men the box every time.. and Eli has success but never really threatened them enough to back off and many of his good plays were off play action.. it tells you that other teams are daring him to beat them and he is unable to do this.. he is barely a game manager now..Numbers look good yesterday but if he was truly having a good game yesterday it didn't register with Indy's defense..
Um, huh?
An inconvenient truth my friend.
LMFAO
No way to make that call right now. Remember when Wentz was going to be killing the NFC East for years to come. You are not a franchise QB until you are a franchise QB. Darnold is nothing more than a rookie with a ton to prove.
Eli has shown that he can be a stopgap QB until we can find a replacement. no one is saying not to look for the replacement.
Bonehead interceptions have been part of Eli's game from the beginning. Him not being able to carry the team is nothing new, hence all those years of not making the playoffs or going one and done. Love the 2 rings, but face it, the guy so many think is a HOF has always had some serious warts. But he has been a good QB, and still is good enough to hold the reins until we find someone better to replace him.
Last year doesn't matter. Whether the Giants were blinded by the brilliance of Barkley, or whether they truly weren't sold on any of the draft prospects, that's in the past. You don't draft a QB now because you made a mistake last year. You draft one if he's worth drafting.
I agree.. you draft the best player available.. just like last year.. The only thing I would add is that we give some of the others a chance.. you can't possible think that after 5 throws, Kyle's NFL career is over.. lets get him out there and if he bombs then he bombs..
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In comment 14231825 Pascal4554 said:
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He has his good games but they are becoming less frequent. He can’t create on his own and his deep ball is suspect. I’ve been a long time Eli homer, but I’m ready to move on.
When you think about the fact that Indy was challenging Eli to beat them by putting 8 men the box every time.. and Eli has success but never really threatened them enough to back off and many of his good plays were off play action.. it tells you that other teams are daring him to beat them and he is unable to do this.. he is barely a game manager now..Numbers look good yesterday but if he was truly having a good game yesterday it didn't register with Indy's defense..
Um, huh?
Its pretty clear what I am saying.. Defenses are no longer scared of our passing game.. that tell you all you need to know about Eli..
2008? 2009? It's so long ago, that who can even remember
That is what Reese and Ross have done to this team with a franchise QB who was never a runner.
Eli is 38, he isn't getting more mobile. But he hasn't lost as much as many think he has. He just needs some semblance of protection, and a threat of a running game, and operates best when he has a big target to throw to. He doesn't need everything to be perfect. He just needs a chance.
The Giants should b looking for his replacement and probably should have taken Darnold. But I think the idea that Eli is a main reason for the team's struggles is bunk.
What about the last 7 years?
What about the last 7 years?
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If we take the Super Bowls out of the equation, would you be ok with the QB play and record over the past three seasons?
What about the last 7 years?
Exactly. 2011 isn’t coming back. Eli’s recent past is losing football with a whole lot of excuses from fans.
This board loves to rip on Stafford and Ryan, but we’re not getting much better QB play than that, if at all.
Would we be okay with Stafford or Ryan as our QB?
Are we ok with what we have there?
What about the last 7 years?
My issue hasn't been with the QB play. It has been with the complete disaster that has been the offensive line such that a pocket-passing QB couldn't possibly succeed.
Tom Brady is better than Eli. But if Brady played behind this line for the last 7 seasons, we would be saying the same things. He might have performed better, but not in any meaningful way. It would have looked like those games where defenses get pressure on the Pats up the middle and Brady couldn't do anything and he isn't a scrambler. It would have been similar to how the most dangerous offense perhaps ever only put up 14 points in the Super Bowl.
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If we take the Super Bowls out of the equation, would you be ok with the QB play and record over the past three seasons?
What about the last 7 years?
My issue hasn't been with the QB play. It has been with the complete disaster that has been the offensive line such that a pocket-passing QB couldn't possibly succeed.
Tom Brady is better than Eli. But if Brady played behind this line for the last 7 seasons, we would be saying the same things. He might have performed better, but not in any meaningful way. It would have looked like those games where defenses get pressure on the Pats up the middle and Brady couldn't do anything and he isn't a scrambler. It would have been similar to how the most dangerous offense perhaps ever only put up 14 points in the Super Bowl.
Well done Paul. You rarely disappoint.
Are we ok with what we have there?
Just because we’re deficient in other areas doesn’t mean we can’t want to improve another deficiency.
You seem to want to plug every hole on the roster, which is impossible. Every roster has holes. The difference consistent and improved QB play can make is much higher.
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Is we have massive holes on defense and in the OL.
Are we ok with what we have there?
Just because we’re deficient in other areas doesn’t mean we can’t want to improve another deficiency.
You seem to want to plug every hole on the roster, which is impossible. Every roster has holes. The difference consistent and improved QB play can make is much higher.
Not with this OL. And what’s Rodgers excuse? Matt Ryan’s? Stafford?
If this is going to be Barkley’s team... you need to ground and pound. AnOL and defense are essential... no?
into for a throw? Until this season, how would Tom Brady breakdown a defense that sits in Cover 2 and still stuffs the run on every play and gets pressure with 4-man rushers? He doesn't get to bring Bill or Dante Scarnecchia with him either.
into for a throw? Until this season, how would Tom Brady breakdown a defense that sits in Cover 2 and still stuffs the run on every play and gets pressure with 4-man rushers? He doesn't get to bring Bill or Dante Scarnecchia with him either.
The Giants would be a better team the last three years with Brady at QB,
however you’re choosing the exception not the rule. The way the Pats are run has kept Brady successful.
This team would be better over the last three years with a number of QBs in the league. The point is you’re capping your ceiling and delaying your next Super Bowl window by keeping Eli around. Like BW said, at best what are you - a 9 win team?
If they were to draft a QB at some point this year we’d see the same thing where they would play Eli the whole year because “they aren’t mathematically eliminated” and the young QB doesn’t take his lumps until 2020 instead of 2019, which delays the next Super Bowl window.
Eli Manning is no longer the future of the franchise, and the occasional wow game doesn’t prove he still has it. It’s time to start finding the next QB, whether via the draft, free agency, or trade, so that you’re not wasting Barkley and Odell’s primes.
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In comment 14232010 dep026 said:
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Is we have massive holes on defense and in the OL.
Are we ok with what we have there?
Just because we’re deficient in other areas doesn’t mean we can’t want to improve another deficiency.
You seem to want to plug every hole on the roster, which is impossible. Every roster has holes. The difference consistent and improved QB play can make is much higher.
Not with this OL. And what’s Rodgers excuse? Matt Ryan’s? Stafford?
If this is going to be Barkley’s team... you need to ground and pound. AnOL and defense are essential... no?
Two of those QBs have put their team in contention for a Super Bowl the past 5 years. The Giants have 1 playoff appearance. One off year by the Packers and Falcons does not equate to the Giants season.
Again, if we flipped Eli with Ryan or Stafford would we be ok with the QB performance?
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In comment 14231990 ajr2456 said:
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If we take the Super Bowls out of the equation, would you be ok with the QB play and record over the past three seasons?
What about the last 7 years?
Exactly. 2011 isn’t coming back. Eli’s recent past is losing football with a whole lot of excuses from fans.
This board loves to rip on Stafford and Ryan, but we’re not getting much better QB play than that, if at all.
Would we be okay with Stafford or Ryan as our QB?
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In comment 14232001 UberAlias said:
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In comment 14231990 ajr2456 said:
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If we take the Super Bowls out of the equation, would you be ok with the QB play and record over the past three seasons?
What about the last 7 years?
Exactly. 2011 isn’t coming back. Eli’s recent past is losing football with a whole lot of excuses from fans.
This board loves to rip on Stafford and Ryan, but we’re not getting much better QB play than that, if at all.
Would we be okay with Stafford or Ryan as our QB?
I never said they should draft a QB just to draft one, did I? I said they need to move in from Eli. It’s time to move on. He’s too much of a distraction and clouds the organizations judgement.
I was agreeing with you?
It's easy to say draft one, but there has to be one worth drafting what if there isn't?
It's easy to say pick up a vet. From where? decent QBs don't hit FA very often. Are there any stopgap players that are going to be any better? Usually what you deal with in this area is garbage vets for whom there's a reason they're available. Usually teams muddle along with subpar QB performance until one is available in the draft.
No one is saying don't move on from Eli. they're saying he's good enough until we can move on. We are not desperate for a QB. We want a new one, and I'd wager that the Giants are looking for a new one. Staying with Eli doesn't mean the Giants are content with him.
The Giants do need to find the next QB. They should have released Eli years ago to do a total rebuild and let him go to a team with a better situation that needed a QB. Win-win for everyone.
I agree that the Patriots system has been propping up Brady. Were he here, people would have been calling to move on from him for years.
But that's my point. If Brady, or any number of pocket-passing QBs were mired in the dogshit that has been the Giants offensive line and front-office strategy over the last decade, they would all look like QBs that need to be moved on from.
The big issue now is Eli's age. By the time the line could potentially get good, Eli will be at least 40 and will the GIants have a QB replacement by then who is ready to step in while the line is good and before Barkley gets a huge contract?
So this week the story is only wins and losses matter. Next week when we win the story will be a bad pass somewhere.
So this week the story is only wins and losses matter. Next week when we win the story will be a bad pass somewhere.
Because you box score scout without context.
But the QB is also part of holding them back. Him being a limited player at this point limits what you can do on offense and how you can scheme around other deficiencies
The points about Brady and other pocket QB's is accurate. They would struggle with this crap team as well and in likely would have been injured since Eli appears indestructable.
In fact Eli's amazing durability plays into the criticism of him since we have never seen how another QB would look.
That Shepard pass wasnt good? Ok...
And what WRs played yesterday are good consistent deep ball throwers? And who on the OL blocks for more than 3 seconds to let those WRs get deep?
So instead of 400 yards and 28 points, he threw for over 300 and 27 points. Bastid!
The points about Brady and other pocket QB's is accurate. They would struggle with this crap team as well and in likely would have been injured since Eli appears indestructable.
In fact Eli's amazing durability plays into the criticism of him since we have never seen how another QB would look.
Yea, no other QB gets pressure up the middle. Russel Wilson faces zero pressure up the middle last night.
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prime group. Who threw him all those passes to allow hima historic stat wise to his career. May have made him more too if could have stepped up in the last playoff game instead of shitting the bed in the biggest game of his career to date.
The points about Brady and other pocket QB's is accurate. They would struggle with this crap team as well and in likely would have been injured since Eli appears indestructable.
In fact Eli's amazing durability plays into the criticism of him since we have never seen how another QB would look.
Yea, no other QB gets pressure up the middle. Russel Wilson faces zero pressure up the middle last night.
Yeah, especially on those plays were the announcers replayed him getting over 5 seconds to throw. Felt bad for Russ.
Of course the GIants offense would be better with that kind of skill set. But Eli hasn't been able to do that this season, last season, five seasons, ago, ten seasons ago, in college... ever.
Theoretically, any player who isn't the best at his position-- or isn't the best value with his contract could be improved.
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In comment 14232153 rocco8112 said:
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prime group. Who threw him all those passes to allow hima historic stat wise to his career. May have made him more too if could have stepped up in the last playoff game instead of shitting the bed in the biggest game of his career to date.
The points about Brady and other pocket QB's is accurate. They would struggle with this crap team as well and in likely would have been injured since Eli appears indestructable.
In fact Eli's amazing durability plays into the criticism of him since we have never seen how another QB would look.
Yea, no other QB gets pressure up the middle. Russel Wilson faces zero pressure up the middle last night.
Yeah, especially on those plays were the announcers replayed him getting over 5 seconds to throw. Felt bad for Russ.
And there were a bunch of plays he got pressure up the middle and bought himself 5 seconds to throw.
Every QB gets pressure up the middle so the idea by whoever posted it that “no other QB could do well with the pressure Eli gets up the middle” is a flat out lie. Every QB gets pressure up the middle. Every QB gets pressure off the edge.
Of course the GIants offense would be better with that kind of skill set. But Eli hasn't been able to do that this season, last season, five seasons, ago, ten seasons ago, in college... ever.
Theoretically, any player who isn't the best at his position-- or isn't the best value with his contract could be improved.
That’s exactly the point. It’s harder to get by because he can’t buy himself time. Now the other parts of his game are starting to diminish which makes it even harder to get by.
The offensive line would need less of a fix if we had a QB who could at least by himself time. We don’t need Russel Wilson or Mahomes, a player with the athleticism of Darnold would be fine - as he did a solid job of avoiding pressure yesterday.
However, to think Eli is not declining and is not on his last legs, you’d be ignoring the data. He is at the bottom of the league in QBR. Plus, with Eli as starting QB over the past two seasons, the Giants are 8-24.
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That's exactly what the Colts did and that's what everyone's going to do. That's why the shephard pass was there. Even the best offensive lines have a hard time defeating an 8-man box. What defeats an eight-man box is a QB that can throw deep with accuracy. We don't have that. The shephard pass was not a great pass. This is why Saquan rookie of the year campaign has slowed down. It's the kind of defense Eli has to throw for 400 yards and four TDS against in today's NFL. It's the whole reason you create a dominant running game. He just isn't good enough. Expect to see Dallas do the same thing.
That Shepard pass wasnt good? Ok...
And what WRs played yesterday are good consistent deep ball throwers? And who on the OL blocks for more than 3 seconds to let those WRs get deep?
So instead of 400 yards and 28 points, he threw for over 300 and 27 points. Bastid!
I guess Barkley shit the bed too. We gave him the ball to pick up a key first down, the ball to ice the game 3 straight times and a pass on the comeback and he couldn’t even get out of bounds. Damn him!
It’s funny you say you’re a giants fan most, but only post about Eli? And before you come back with claws... Barkley was not responsible for our loss whatsoever. I was just using your logic. Hopefully you see how bizarre it is... but I doubt it.
However, to think Eli is not declining and is not on his last legs, you’d be ignoring the data. He is at the bottom of the league in QBR. Plus, with Eli as starting QB over the past two seasons, the Giants are 8-24.
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Good summation.
I guess Barkley shit the bed too. We gave him the ball to pick up a key first down, the ball to ice the game 3 straight times and a pass on the comeback and he couldn’t even get out of bounds. Damn him!
It’s funny you say you’re a giants fan most, but only post about Eli? And before you come back with claws... Barkley was not responsible for our loss whatsoever. I was just using your logic. Hopefully you see how bizarre it is... but I doubt it.
We see how bizarre it is, but it’s not what you think
If he is the best choice for next year so be it. Giants need to rebuild the team but Eli is a stop gap and not part of the solution. Maybe he will quit after the year and do everyone a big favor.
[quote] Darnold is turning into a franchise quarterback:
An inconvenient truth my friend. [/
So is Matt Stafford. How have the Lions been during his tenure. Inconvenient is how stupid most of he posters are. Andrew Luck is amazing. An actual franchise stud QB. Colts. God this site is full of morons .
You want to compare a bad o-line to if Brees or Rivers were here... fine. But Brady would still perform with this line, obviously. Just stop.
It’s so simple.
It’s so simple.
Let me take a crack at this.
Because keeping Eli is a waste of cap dollars. Let’s spend those dollars on more pressing needs.
We aren’t going to do anything significant with Eli again. Let’s stop being delicate trying to manufacture a fairytale ending.
So let’s skip all the traditions - giving Eli a proper goodbye, having a pass the baton plan, etc - and take off the training wheels with the young prospect. And let them play, like the Jets did with Darnold. Get right into the deep end of the pool.
But even if ARod behind Favre for 3 years doesn't happen anymore... you can't tell me Mahomes didn't benefit sitting behind Smith for 15 games last year. Or Goff - even under the idiot fisher - at least sitting and taking in the league most of his rookie year either.
Also - mayfield and Darnold have already been ordained perennial pro bowlers ... as we all took in Josh Johnson or whatever his name is Saturday, I will remind you Year 2 is usually a much tougher test for a young qb than the rookie season.
Or until a great option presents itself. There were a few in this past draft. Not a lot innthis one and looks like a boat load in 2020.
We will get one. To quote a famous dick but a great player...
R-E-L-A-X
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Why the fuck can’t the giants do both. Draft a kid qb , keep Eli. Play Eli early. Win for Eli, great. Lose for Eli, play the kid.
It’s so simple.
Let me take a crack at this.
Because keeping Eli is a waste of cap dollars. Let’s spend those dollars on more pressing needs.
We aren’t going to do anything significant with Eli again. Let’s stop being delicate trying to manufacture a fairytale ending.
So let’s skip all the traditions - giving Eli a proper goodbye, having a pass the baton plan, etc - and take off the training wheels with the young prospect. And let them play, like the Jets did with Darnold. Get right into the deep end of the pool.
Well we have a new GM. maybe he negotiates a better deal for two more years and they can draft a QB like KC did and extend him a year and cut next year’s dollars to a less wasteful amount. Again how many Playoff wins does Detroit Tampa and Tenn have since they got their “franchise” QBs? Then Passing on your man crush is getting to you.
I think you should just become a Jet fan since you’ve got Darnolditis and have him enshrined in Canton and have the Jets on the correct trajectory. You hate the Giants for passing on him. Make the switch. I think you will be happier.
OP thinks the Giants will be a playoff team again WITH Eli.
That isn't exactly "well, there aren't better options just yet - but we still need to address it ASAP"
That is "I think he can still play and still want him starting for the forseeable future" and the exact reason why it's going to be so difficult to move on from Eli - because there are fans like these who will find any reason under the stars to believe he's still the guy to move forward with.
It's like some guy who keeps romanticizing and finding "signs" even after he's already been dumped. The sentimentality aspect is pretty clearly the largest hurdle. All you need to do is read this board on any given day.
OP thinks the Giants will be a playoff team again WITH Eli.
That isn't exactly "well, there aren't better options just yet - but we still need to address it ASAP"
That is "I think he can still play and still want him starting for the forseeable future" and the exact reason why it's going to be so difficult to move on from Eli - because there are fans like these who will find any reason under the stars to believe he's still the guy to move forward with.
It's like some guy who keeps romanticizing and finding "signs" even after he's already been dumped. The sentimentality aspect is pretty clearly the largest hurdle. All you need to do is read this board on any given day.
We can compete well with Eli with a better OL given his toys he has to work with, imo. Regardless, we Need a future QB to develop asap
I have seen very HOF qb since Unitas retire. They retire when either their arms are totally shot or they start getting hurt all the time and far more common is the latter. Neither has happened with Manning. He will be here and starting next season.
The giants traded good players at the deadline. They obviously tried to move guys, maybe other teams didn’t offer enough? We know they didn’t take the 3rd for Collins and who can blame them they might get the 3rd if he merely leaves as a FA.
The giants swapped out dozens of players and virtually flipped the roster upside down. They didn’t trade a qb with their first round pick. That and only that fact has forced so many people into thinking the giants stayed the course. This is just false. How does a team stay the course and replace nearly everyone? They fired the HC, GM and replaced more than half the team including many prominent players. And even the GM hiring has people talking shit about old guards and comfortable decisions. DG has his own philosophy just like any other GM. What difference does it make if he’s a familiar face to Mara. He’s his own GM.
Giants just need players. Stop overthinking this shit. If Eli can play well some of the time and virtually never embarrass himself out there you can win with him if you insulate him well enough, just like any other player and position with varying degrees. Some players need to be protected more than others but Eli can still play. Of course we could do better at qb, we could also do much much worse.
The oline was terrible. Now it’s merely below average and the results have changed over the last 8 weeks or so. The peaks have been longer and better the valleys have been fewer in number. Still need improvement but the O looks much better lately. The qb isn’t a problem but a young good talent should be brought in sooner than later.
Plenty of qbs have lost for years and then won again. And we forget Eli won two years ago.
Plenty of qbs have lost for years and then won again. And we forget Eli won two years ago.
Did Eli win though? The offense was god awful and was carried by Odell housing slant passes, and a top end defense.
It does make a difference what the five guys in front of Eli do.
And to those who say there isn’t a better option - bullshit. The cloud of Eli is causing this franchise to be stuck in neutral.
Even a poster like Dep made a thread saying Eli should make his LAST start as a Giant for the home game against WSH.
Britt made a post after the first Eagle game saying Eli should be done here.
The constant analyzation of Eli’s play is putting this franchise in a complete stand still.
The Giants will never be a playoff team again with Eli at the helm. Never...
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Get him a competent offensive line and SOME/ANY talent on the defensive side of the ball next year and the Giants can be a playoff team again with Eli at the helm.
The Giants will never be a playoff team again with Eli at the helm. Never...
This is just an asinine statement.
they may make the playoffs. they won’t make it on his back anymore, but at this point let’s hope the team improves and the Giants bring in more comp at qb.
the most likely outcome is 5 to 7 wins and the official band aid rio in 2020.
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Get him a competent offensive line and SOME/ANY talent on the defensive side of the ball next year and the Giants can be a playoff team again with Eli at the helm.
The Giants will never be a playoff team again with Eli at the helm. Never...
This is just an asinine statement.
It's correct.
they may make the playoffs. they won’t make it on his back anymore, but at this point let’s hope the team improves and the Giants bring in more comp at qb.
the most likely outcome is 5 to 7 wins and the official band aid rio in 2020.
Agree with everything, except the comment "they may make the playoffs". Unless "may" means some silly 1% chance...
Eli may be here next year, but imo there should be a point to him being here.
Not out of respect for Eli.
What purpose does he serve? Is he mentoring a new QB? Or are they going all in to try and make the playoffs?
If he's not doing one of these two things, he shouldn't be on the team because at that point he is just delaying the Giants path to success.
To bring him back because "there's nothing better" is the worst outcome for a team. It will drive them to a similar mediocre situation with no end in sight.
To bring him back because "there's nothing better" is the worst outcome for a team. It will drive them to a similar mediocre situation with no end in sight.
100% in agreement. Lack of a some clearcut better option doesn't compute to bringing Eli back.
Its a sure-fire path to wasting yet another year...
With this team THIS year. Of course it’s true. But are you telling me with improvements on the OL and some help on defense we can’t compete?
Let’s look at the OP’s topic here: Eli has been 19 games under .500 in the last six years here. A legendary HC, his replacement, and a 10-yr/two-ring GM did not survive this epic failure; Eli did. He turns 38 in two weeks. The team had the #2 overall pick, the 2nd time in 36 years, and it happened to the strongest QB class in 30 years. Yet, the team did not choose his replacement, they chose generational talent who can most divert opponent’s attention from Eli.
So the end result is exactly what the OP stated: at 38, at 19-games under .500 over the last six years, at a $23M cal hit, and with his replacement not current on the roster and not even on the 2019 draft, Eli is the best choice to start yet another season for the NY Giants. Absurdly, there is no other choice for the team!!!
Fuck anyone who dare to denigrate our beloved Eli as not being the luckiest and most blessed player over his 15 year in the entire NFL.
This is pure Bullshit. 100%
The next QB is in a can’t lose situation. If he comes in and sucks... well we weren’t making the playoffs with Eli anyways. If he throws an INT, well Eli threw a lot. If he makes a play out of pocket... we’ll eli couldn’t do that. If he wins... see we needed to replace Eli.
The next QB is in a perfect blameless situation.
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All we'll hear is "if they gave Eli this roster, he'd be playing the same!"
This is pure Bullshit. 100%
The next QB is in a can’t lose situation. If he comes in and sucks... well we weren’t making the playoffs with Eli anyways. If he throws an INT, well Eli threw a lot. If he makes a play out of pocket... we’ll eli couldn’t do that. If he wins... see we needed to replace Eli.
The next QB is in a perfect blameless situation.
Uh huh. We'll see if and when the next QB has success, how many posts and threads we get about how "if they didn't screw Eli" or "if they filled these holes on the roster for Eli"
as the giants are a 20-25th team in league ranking wise a lot has to go right.
i really fail to see the purpose of keeping Eli other than a fantasy last hurrah. His defenders here point out the lack of a better option but keeping him in means they have given up on manufacturing a qb that has a future and an upside. Honestly many in this crowd want the extension without saying it outright and believe once the giants are restocked the run of 2007-11 is imminent.
if it’s just about seeing another 5-11 to 8-8 season where Eli produces a qb rating of 93 just to say he still had it, i’ve never seen a bigger case of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
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All we'll hear is "if they gave Eli this roster, he'd be playing the same!"
This is pure Bullshit. 100%
The next QB is in a can’t lose situation. If he comes in and sucks... well we weren’t making the playoffs with Eli anyways. If he throws an INT, well Eli threw a lot. If he makes a play out of pocket... we’ll eli couldn’t do that. If he wins... see we needed to replace Eli.
The next QB is in a perfect blameless situation.
This is the most clueless post I've seen in a long time and shows you clearly don't understand BBI.
the maxim a tough act to follow will never ring truer.
and that’s no knock on eli just his fanatic followers...
the maxim a tough act to follow will never ring truer.
and that’s no knock on eli just his fanatic followers...
100% actually 1000%.
ELi once gone, will be martyred. Rookie has a few tough starts, grace period is GONE. This guys stinks, rinse repeat. And its not Eli fanatics that will do this, its the general mob that is BBI.
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the next qb will be butchered as soon as he has a bad start. book it. the comparisons to eli will be rife.
the maxim a tough act to follow will never ring truer.
and that’s no knock on eli just his fanatic followers...
100% actually 1000%.
ELi once gone, will be martyred. Rookie has a few tough starts, grace period is GONE. This guys stinks, rinse repeat. And its not Eli fanatics that will do this, its the general mob that is BBI.
And the other way around. If he succeeds well have threads about how if we gave Eli the same oline and the same defense he'd be winning games too!
Will they? I dont know. I am not guaranteeing it. But improvements has to help, doesnt it? I mean I am not guaranteeing it. I am not saying we are SB contenders. But to say Eli CANT make the playoffs is inaccurate, IMO.
This is the most clueless post I've seen in a long time and shows you clearly don't understand BBI.
Clearly you dont. Eli is blamed from every loss in his career. Another QB coming in and losing wont change the narrative of Eli to many posters.
And the other way around. If he succeeds well have threads about how if we gave Eli the same oline and the same defense he'd be winning games too!
Sorry, this is BS as well. if new QB came and started to win games.... every person who defended Eli would be ecstatic. While others will be ecstatic plus gloating about how Eli failed us.
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And the other way around. If he succeeds well have threads about how if we gave Eli the same oline and the same defense he'd be winning games too!
Sorry, this is BS as well. if new QB came and started to win games.... every person who defended Eli would be ecstatic. While others will be ecstatic plus gloating about how Eli failed us.
We'll see. You're acting like there weren't posts when they went to the playoffs in 2016 about how "if they spent this type of money on defense for Coughlin..."
We'll see. You're acting like there weren't posts when they went to the playoffs in 2016 about how "if they spent this type of money on defense for Coughlin..."
Regardless of QB, shouldnt it be the goal to improve the team where you are weak?
I mean, lets be honest - lets say Eli is gone after this year - do you think DG is going to ignore the OL? We have major weaknesses at major areas. Not just the QB. They have to be improved regardless of who is behind center.
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We'll see. You're acting like there weren't posts when they went to the playoffs in 2016 about how "if they spent this type of money on defense for Coughlin..."
Regardless of QB, shouldnt it be the goal to improve the team where you are weak?
I mean, lets be honest - lets say Eli is gone after this year - do you think DG is going to ignore the OL? We have major weaknesses at major areas. Not just the QB. They have to be improved regardless of who is behind center.
I never said they shouldn't. I was just saying that people will post the "they should have done this for Eli" posts.
most runs in sports are achieved this way.
even if the Giants make the playoffs next year an ascending team will be hamstrung go forward by a descending part and the most important one. This is a tough spot to be in, which is why i’d rather see no playoffs and a genuine rebuild happen with qb addressed. i’d rather get rich in a few years than enjoy some small success next year.
the more likely scenario is just more burnt years of a team that can ascend.
A playoff run will guaranteed spark the extension conversation and Eli in his 40s will be a brutal sight given his already diminishing skills physically.
most runs in sports are achieved this way.
even if the Giants make the playoffs next year an ascending team will be hamstrung go forward by a descending part and the most important one. This is a tough spot to be in, which is why i’d rather see no playoffs and a genuine rebuild happen with qb addressed. i’d rather get rich in a few years than enjoy some small success next year.
the more likely scenario is just more burnt years of a team that can ascend.
A playoff run will guaranteed spark the extension conversation and Eli in his 40s will be a brutal sight given his already diminishing skills physically.
You can still build for the future with Eli QB'ing next year. I just dont understand where fans think that the first fix is QB - even if the next guy isnt there to select. People bring up "culture", "other players mindset", "Eli's presence"...
I mean is Eli that much of a locker room cancer? I mean you listen to interviews by Barkley and Shep - they have nothing but praise for him. If the Giants brass think Herbert or Haskins or Jones is the guy and select him, well giddy up. But if they dont.... I think building up the OL for Saquan barkley (the best player on the team) is always a good thing, no?
my memory may fault me, but roger staubach to danny white was probably the best baton handoff.
reheat is the logical outcome of a good season from eli and the giants next year? a handoff to the next guy which takes two years of growing pains. odell’s prime is basically over and we are 4 years into barkley. or extending Eli at an age where the odds get worse.
QB 2 = 9-23 from 2015-2016
QB 3 = 7-9 in 2017 6-8-1 in 2019
QB 1 = Drew Brees
QB 2 = Phillip Rivers
QB 3 = Aaron Rogers
QB's are only as good as the players and coaches around them. Eli is no longer in his prime but he's still better at his position than almost all of the Giants other 21 starters. The Giants need to find their next QB but Eli is not the reason they've become chronic losers.
QB 2 = 9-23 from 2015-2016
QB 3 = 7-9 in 2017 6-8-1 in 2019
QB 1 = Drew Brees
QB 2 = Phillip Rivers
QB 3 = Aaron Rogers
QB's are only as good as the players and coaches around them. Eli is no longer in his prime but he's still better at his position than almost all of the Giants other 21 starters. The Giants need to find their next QB but Eli is not the reason they've become chronic losers.
You're comparing two years to four though. How many times have each of those players made the playoffs the last 7 years?
The next option chosen at QB could be a one year stop gap, could last a few years, could succeed or could wind up doing exactly what we are doing now which is failing.
Can’t not try....
To get something out of this duo worth something, a new starter that is quality needs to be in place no later than beginning of 2021.
Maybe that player is at the top of the board with a trade up for the Giants in 2020 or there because the team is not very good. That seems like the best case at this point given the way the Giants have approached this situation. Really a shame.
The next option chosen at QB could be a one year stop gap, could last a few years, could succeed or could wind up doing exactly what we are doing now which is failing.
Can’t not try....
There is literally no QB in the draft or otherwise that is worth committing to in 2019. By forcing the situation, you make the team worse over the long haul. Better to improve the overall team and look for a QB in 2020.
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It may not and probably will not bear fruit immediately, but it will truly begin the restructuring process. Right now all we are doing is meddling around and playing games. We are wasting time, upgrading as many positions as we are watching other positions downgrade with time and circumstance.
The next option chosen at QB could be a one year stop gap, could last a few years, could succeed or could wind up doing exactly what we are doing now which is failing.
Can’t not try....
There is literally no QB in the draft or otherwise that is worth committing to in 2019. By forcing the situation, you make the team worse over the long haul. Better to improve the overall team and look for a QB in 2020.
There’s no way of saying today that Haskins, Lock or a guy like Bridgewater aren’t worth committing too.
The story was last year that there wasn’t a QB worthy of the #2 pick. This year it’s there isn’t one worth committing too. Next year it will be we can’t trade draft picks to move up.
And on and on and on
To get something out of this duo worth something, a new starter that is quality needs to be in place no later than beginning of 2021.
Maybe that player is at the top of the board with a trade up for the Giants in 2020 or there because the team is not very good. That seems like the best case at this point given the way the Giants have approached this situation. Really a shame.
I don’t want Eli here for 4-5 years.
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It may not and probably will not bear fruit immediately, but it will truly begin the restructuring process. Right now all we are doing is meddling around and playing games. We are wasting time, upgrading as many positions as we are watching other positions downgrade with time and circumstance.
The next option chosen at QB could be a one year stop gap, could last a few years, could succeed or could wind up doing exactly what we are doing now which is failing.
Can’t not try....
There is literally no QB in the draft or otherwise that is worth committing to in 2019. By forcing the situation, you make the team worse over the long haul. Better to improve the overall team and look for a QB in 2020.
This is so short-sighted. How the hell do you know that NOBODY is worth committing to in 2019? How are we worse especially since more losses equates to better draft position?
We have to change to get better...change make take time and it may go thru several options but it ultimately better than the staying the course until the moon/sun/stars align and we find our guy.
Start changing now...
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the only thing that makes sense is people (ardent Eli supporters) won't admit it but many here want to see Eli play 4-5 more years for the duration of the odell and barkley tandem the giants have put together. And it is outright unrealistic.
To get something out of this duo worth something, a new starter that is quality needs to be in place no later than beginning of 2021.
Maybe that player is at the top of the board with a trade up for the Giants in 2020 or there because the team is not very good. That seems like the best case at this point given the way the Giants have approached this situation. Really a shame.
I don’t want Eli here for 4-5 years.
Yes you do. You just don't want to tell me...
when i see people poo poo taking a qb last year, and now this year(so haskins or lock or others aren’t worth having as a prospect at all? may not be worth the 6-8th pick but not even a trade down) and are suggesting the Giants only wait for a perfect prospect, they are only making a tough task even harder. which would suggest an agenda because it’s outright illogical.
they need to get multiple different options in here sooner rather than later.
If it’s a first rounder great hope he is a real blue chip. if not and a second-fourth round pick hope they get someone that can develop and challenge.
Whoever and whenever replaces Eli... I’ll cheer for that person as much as I did for Eli.
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You say things with certainty like Eli can’t win again. I don’t buy it.
Plenty of qbs have lost for years and then won again. And we forget Eli won two years ago.
Did Eli win though? The offense was god awful and was carried by Odell housing slant passes, and a top end defense.
Did they win or not? The qb threw 25/26 tds, 4000 plus and went 11-5 and showed up in the playoff game while his teammates were day dreaming. The giants won with Eli in 2016. Or was Eli just carried by mcadoo....
Eli lost in 2014-2015 despite being the only good thing about those teams along with Beckham. Funny how we don’t want to shield Eli from criticism there but kill him when he did in in 2016. That’s unfair
I personally think Eli will be done at the end of next year, so hope the search is not extended.
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In comment 14233528 Jimmy Googs said:
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It may not and probably will not bear fruit immediately, but it will truly begin the restructuring process. Right now all we are doing is meddling around and playing games. We are wasting time, upgrading as many positions as we are watching other positions downgrade with time and circumstance.
The next option chosen at QB could be a one year stop gap, could last a few years, could succeed or could wind up doing exactly what we are doing now which is failing.
Can’t not try....
There is literally no QB in the draft or otherwise that is worth committing to in 2019. By forcing the situation, you make the team worse over the long haul. Better to improve the overall team and look for a QB in 2020.
This is so short-sighted. How the hell do you know that NOBODY is worth committing to in 2019? How are we worse especially since more losses equates to better draft position?
We have to change to get better...change make take time and it may go thru several options but it ultimately better than the staying the course until the moon/sun/stars align and we find our guy.
Start changing now...
No, short sighted is change just for the sake of change. Just because you want anybody not named Eli playing QB for the Giants in 2019, doesn't mean its the right move for the team.
I've been saying this for at least 2 months now, none of these QBs coming out this year are WORTH a 1st round pick. And now Herbert is not declaring. Before that development, McShay was saying the same thing I am saying. Some of these guys may go in the 1st, but its a reach.
I don't want the Giants committing to a reach. You are stuck with a 5 year fully guaranteed contract. And at least 3 years to let him develop, and if you are wrong, welcome to QB hell. The 2019 draft has QB hell written all over it. If you have spent any time at all watching these guys, you'd know it too. Herbert was the best of the lot and he has trouble reading defenses and making mental adjustments. And that's in a 1 read spread offense. Simple as mud. That doesn't translate well to the NFL. And that's the best of them... This draft looks like 2013 in terms of quality QBs.
Could one or more of these guys develop into a franchise guy. Sure, can a 6th round draft pick become the GOAT, sure, is that what you want to bet the franchise on... Absolutely not.
Wait a year and pick the right guy. 2019 is a lost year anyway, doesn't matter who the QB is.
Think long term... Get the right guy, not a desperate reach.
Apparently the Sun, Moon and Stars align more often than desperate fans on this message board realize.
12 of 32 is 37.5%. What am I missing?
The next option chosen at QB could be a one year stop gap, could last a few years, could succeed or could wind up doing exactly what we are doing now which is failing.
Can’t not try....
There is literally no QB in the draft or otherwise that is worth committing to in 2019. By forcing the situation, you make the team worse over the long haul. Better to improve the overall team and look for a QB in 2020.
This is so short-sighted. How the hell do you know that NOBODY is worth committing to in 2019? How are we worse especially since more losses equates to better draft position?
We have to change to get better...change make take time and it may go thru several options but it ultimately better than the staying the course until the moon/sun/stars align and we find our guy.
Start changing now...
No, short sighted is change just for the sake of change. Just because you want anybody not named Eli playing QB for the Giants in 2019, doesn't mean its the right move for the team.
I've been saying this for at least 2 months now, none of these QBs coming out this year are WORTH a 1st round pick. And now Herbert is not declaring. Before that development, McShay was saying the same thing I am saying. Some of these guys may go in the 1st, but its a reach.
I don't want the Giants committing to a reach. You are stuck with a 5 year fully guaranteed contract. And at least 3 years to let him develop, and if you are wrong, welcome to QB hell. The 2019 draft has QB hell written all over it. If you have spent any time at all watching these guys, you'd know it too. Herbert was the best of the lot and he has trouble reading defenses and making mental adjustments. And that's in a 1 read spread offense. Simple as mud. That doesn't translate well to the NFL. And that's the best of them... This draft looks like 2013 in terms of quality QBs.
Could one or more of these guys develop into a franchise guy. Sure, can a 6th round draft pick become the GOAT, sure, is that what you want to bet the franchise on... Absolutely not.
Wait a year and pick the right guy. 2019 is a lost year anyway, doesn't matter who the QB is.
Think long term... Get the right guy, not a desperate reach.
I didnt say the QB this year has to come from the draft. Only remarked that we are better off trying something because we are locked into going nowhere standing pat.
I am not sure how you can be certain the 2019 Qbs can be so much worse than the 2020 Qbs...in Dec 2018 this is a known fact? And even if so, how many more are available in 2020 vs 2019? And what makes our ability to get one in 2020 better than 2019? Last I counted there are 32 teams in the NFL that draft, and anyone of them came move up ahead of us if we are not sitting in the #1 spot. What if we waited until 2020 AND still couldn't get the one guy we wanted...then what? (Hint: QB HELL TWICE OVER)
All I am saying is the Giants better explore all options this year and next year and maybe even after that. They better do so with guys in the NFL right now that are starting and sitting, and guys at the top of the draft and middle. I am fine waiting if certainty in drafting other players is a no-brainer but keep in mind that only kicks that can down the road, and increase the risk factors of not improving the most since QB is the most impactful position.
Next year they’ll be saying Tua’s got this problem and Fromm can’t do this, can’t draft either!
If the Giants aren’t going to draft a QB they should bring one in via FA on a one year deal or trade for someone else’s competent backup.
you change because there's an opportunity to upgrade.
First point out the opportunity to upgrade, and not just a generic 'find one someplace', and then look to move on from Eli.
It would be idiotic to dump Eli, just because, without an upgrade in reach, which is how most of the dump Eli posts read.
you change because there's an opportunity to upgrade.
First point out the opportunity to upgrade, and not just a generic 'find one someplace', and then look to move on from Eli.
It would be idiotic to dump Eli, just because, without an upgrade in reach, which is how most of the dump Eli posts read.
Foles. Bridgewater. Brissett. If they suck next year your picking at the top of the draft again and can get your QB then. If it’s one of the latter two, and they play well and prove they can be your future - awesome now we don’t have to spend a first round pick.
Eli is no longer the future.
Next year they’ll be saying Tua’s got this problem and Fromm can’t do this, can’t draft either!
If the Giants aren’t going to draft a QB they should bring one in via FA on a one year deal or trade for someone else’s competent backup.
Or "this qb is too short" ~ ala Mayfield
Winning a few games each year when the other team has to play its 2nd or 3rd string QB is completely wasting everybody's time.
What the hell do the Giants have to lose by changing out Eli other than that it frees up more cap dollars?
What are you all afraid of...
Winning a few games each year when the other team has to play its 2nd or 3rd string QB is completely wasting everybody's time.
What the hell do the Giants have to lose by changing out Eli other than that it frees up more cap dollars?
What are you all afraid of...
Exactly. Why can't they try Foles or Teddy as a FA. Or trade for Brissett?
What's the worst than can happen, we go 2-14? We're that team right now anyway.
There won't always be a Saquon Barkley sitting there the next time we draft high and consider a QB. So maybe you feel a little more confident drafting one, because you have just a little bit less to lose.
If you have a player graded as high as most scouts and GM's, including Gettleman (graded out as high as Peyton Manning) did, then unless the QB is close to that grade you just don't take the risk.
They do not think Manning is at that point yet.
15 years of experience has value. No matter what you guys say.
Might as well just start talking about how to improve the rest of the team, because you can talk about change for the sake of change until you're blue in the face, but they don't view it that way.
15 years of experience has value. No matter what you guys say.
If it has value, why are we getting 8 wins the last two year and below average QB play?
That's one school of thought. It's certainly not the only one, as Bill Belichick would fiercely disagree with this.
Need to decide what you want...
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It's as much mental, if not more, than physical.
15 years of experience has value. No matter what you guys say.
If it has value, why are we getting 8 wins the last two year and below average QB play?
Because you are laser focused on one position being the cause, in a game consisting of a million variable and lots of moving parts.
Need to decide what you want...
This team won't win anymore until the rest of the roster improves, including a swiss cheese defense consisting of 50% backup level players and an offensive line that still needs improvement.
A rookie QB doesn't make the team better now, either. He will need those things as well.
Might as well just start talking about how to improve the rest of the team, because you can talk about change for the sake of change until you're blue in the face, but they don't view it that way.
Seems that way...which is why the Giants keep losing.
Quite the strategy...
Neither is going nowhere for the sake of resisting change in such a critical area...
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In comment 14233969 Britt in VA said:
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It's as much mental, if not more, than physical.
15 years of experience has value. No matter what you guys say.
If it has value, why are we getting 8 wins the last two year and below average QB play?
Because you are laser focused on one position being the cause, in a game consisting of a million variable and lots of moving parts.
So then what value is his 15 years of experience bringing? Nobody is laser focused on one position, but it makes sense to be trying out parts for the future while fixing the other parts because by the time you fix those parts, Eli will be long gone.
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He just won't make this team win anymore though.
Need to decide what you want...
This team won't win anymore until the rest of the roster improves, including a swiss cheese defense consisting of 50% backup level players and an offensive line that still needs improvement.
A rookie QB doesn't make the team better now, either. He will need those things as well.
A team can get better many ways, and nobody says it has to be NOW. Not trying to do it at QB is a bad business decision too...
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"What do we have to lose?" is not a good business decision.
Neither is going nowhere for the sake of resisting change in such a critical area...
They are not resisting, they just feel the position is stable and there are much bigger fish, ie: glaring holes, to fry.
It's all about allocating and maximizing resources. Just like any other business.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
I could not care less if they cut Eli Manning this offseason and draft his replacement. It's been a good run.
But that's not going to happen, for the multitude of reasons, non emotional, that I've outlined.
But you just keep beating the drum.... "but why!?!?!" despite all of the reasons and evidence being crystal clearly presented right in front of you.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
Most NFL teams would have had a transition plan in place already.
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but don't have the self awareness that "change for the sake of change" and "What do we have to lose" are the emotional takes.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
Most NFL teams would have had a transition plan in place already.
You base that on what, exactly?
Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
-Analyzation of Eli’s play
-Play Lauletta/rookie speculation
-Reactions proclaiming Eli can still play or Eli is done
I take you back to the Friday following the first Philly game where you proclaimed Eli needed to be done here.
Let’s go back to the first WSH game where Dep proclaimed it should be Eli’s last game starting as a Giant.
*THIS* is the problem. Eli’s play is what it is, he is up & down. But, the distraction is enormous. I’m of the belief we won’t win until Mara/Gettleman move on & we establish a new era. It’s over. Eli will be 38 next week & we haven’t won with him. It’s one thing if we’ve been winning, but this is another losing season.
It’s time.
What if it isn't a shit show though? What if with the cap savings from Eli they are able to get a RT? Then draft a C? Then the next offseason the defense improves? It really hurt Watson and Tribusky.
Why does the full roster have to be established? What you ignore is by waiting until the roster is established, you're dealing with a lot of uncertainty. What if you wait and Hernandez gets a career ending injury? Welp, there goes your established oline piece. What if good defensive players don't hit the FA market?
Waiting to change something you can try other options at now, based on the moves you can hypothetically make isn't a good strategy.
-Analyzation of Eli’s play
-Play Lauletta/rookie speculation
-Reactions proclaiming Eli can still play or Eli is done
I take you back to the Friday following the first Philly game where you proclaimed Eli needed to be done here.
Let’s go back to the first WSH game where Dep proclaimed it should be Eli’s last game starting as a Giant.
*THIS* is the problem. Eli’s play is what it is, he is up & down. But, the distraction is enormous. I’m of the belief we won’t win until Mara/Gettleman move on & we establish a new era. It’s over. Eli will be 38 next week & we haven’t won with him. It’s one thing if we’ve been winning, but this is another losing season.
It’s time.
Everything your post is based on fandom. Those things don't permeate the front office as much as you think they do.
The discussion that occurs on BBI is not the discussion that occurs in "Jints Central". Not even close.
I wish the FO would see thru the errors of their ways, but they cannot for whatever reason you want to put on it. But we simply are not going to be a playoff team again with Eli...ever.
If the strategy is to improve everywhere else because we are so "stable" at QB, then enjoy the continuing losing seasons while we get better at some of those positions/get worse in others/stay flat in yet others. They all aren't just going to get better...you know that right?
Commit to other options at QB sooner vs later because staying this course is an easy path to nowhere.
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In comment 14234007 Britt in VA said:
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but don't have the self awareness that "change for the sake of change" and "What do we have to lose" are the emotional takes.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
Most NFL teams would have had a transition plan in place already.
You base that on what, exactly?
Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
The Saints traded a 3rd for Bridgewater, so they are attempting. Rivers and Brees are playing better than Eli has the last 4 years, so it's irrelevant. Brady has won more games this year than the Giants in the last two, so again irrelevant.
The Chiefs did their succession plan right. So did the Ravens. So did Dallas, etc.
It means nothing. It carries zero weight.
Just like my opinion on things moving forward carry zero weight.
I honestly just think I'm reading a tea leaves a little less emotionally than others, ironically.
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In comment 14234021 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14234007 Britt in VA said:
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but don't have the self awareness that "change for the sake of change" and "What do we have to lose" are the emotional takes.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
Most NFL teams would have had a transition plan in place already.
You base that on what, exactly?
Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
The Saints traded a 3rd for Bridgewater, so they are attempting. Rivers and Brees are playing better than Eli has the last 4 years, so it's irrelevant. Brady has won more games this year than the Giants in the last two, so again irrelevant.
The Chiefs did their succession plan right. So did the Ravens. So did Dallas, etc.
What do you mean irrelevant? So because Brady is playing decently at 41, and Brees is playing decently at nearly 40 means they don't need a transition?
Ben Roethlisberger contemplated retirement publicly last year and gets injured every other week, but he's playing well right now so it's irrelevant?
Do you understand what having a transition "plan" actually means?
Let’s go back to the first WSH game where Dep proclaimed it should be Eli’s last game starting as a Giant.
*THIS* is the problem. Eli’s play is what it is, he is up & down. But, the distraction is enormous. I’m of the belief we won’t win until Mara/Gettleman move on & we establish a new era. It’s over. Eli will be 38 next week & we haven’t won with him. It’s one thing if we’ve been winning, but this is another losing season.
It’s time.
short memories, except on the good games.
The path to nowhere...
Check you guys later.
Guessing the Giants brass will do the loyal, uncontroversial thing is like guessing the sun will rise.
Guessing an aging QB on a team with talent deficits all over won't win a lot of games ain't so shocking either.
Privately, and this is cynical, but I suspect the Giants brass is letting Manning play stop-gap as they build up the talent, construct a functional roster, and acquire his replacement.
I don't suspect the Giants see a winner emerging until 2020, and are letting Manning take the beating in the meantime.
Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
What the hell do these guys/ages have anything to do with what Eli is doing for the Giants? They have no relationship whatsoever to how you assess our QB...none.
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Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
What the hell do these guys/ages have anything to do with what Eli is doing for the Giants? They have no relationship whatsoever to how you assess our QB...none.
That was a direct response to a distinct statement. Don't clip it to make it look like something it's not.
Now I really do have to sign off for awhile.
Guessing the Giants brass will do the loyal, uncontroversial thing is like guessing the sun will rise.
Guessing an aging QB on a team with talent deficits all over won't win a lot of games ain't so shocking either.
Privately, and this is cynical, but I suspect the Giants brass is letting Manning play stop-gap as they build up the talent, construct a functional roster, and acquire his replacement.
I don't suspect the Giants see a winner emerging until 2020, and are letting Manning take the beating in the meantime.
If this strategy is true, then it is the worst case scenario and Terps was right. They don't have a plan. They will waste Barkley and OBJs prime years while they find and then ramp a QB.
Eli is not playing so badly that the Giants should just dump him just for the sake of it. I agree with you that they should move on. I merely think that they should do so in a rational fashion.
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In comment 14234029 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14234021 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14234007 Britt in VA said:
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but don't have the self awareness that "change for the sake of change" and "What do we have to lose" are the emotional takes.
If you've watched NFL teams operate for any significant amount of time, this is how they operate.
Most NFL teams would have had a transition plan in place already.
You base that on what, exactly?
Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
The Saints traded a 3rd for Bridgewater, so they are attempting. Rivers and Brees are playing better than Eli has the last 4 years, so it's irrelevant. Brady has won more games this year than the Giants in the last two, so again irrelevant.
The Chiefs did their succession plan right. So did the Ravens. So did Dallas, etc.
What do you mean irrelevant? So because Brady is playing decently at 41, and Brees is playing decently at nearly 40 means they don't need a transition?
Ben Roethlisberger contemplated retirement publicly last year and gets injured every other week, but he's playing well right now so it's irrelevant?
Do you understand what having a transition "plan" actually means?
I didn't say the Steelers were doing right did I? Brady is winning games so why would they make a change? They've also spent 2nd rounders and developed QBs, that they end up trading, in anticipation of Brady declining.
You ignored the fact that the Saints gave up a premium pick in case Brees declined. If Bree's is playing "decently" with 32 tds and 5 int and the #1 seed in the NFC, what would you categorize Eli's play as?
If this strategy is true, then it is the worst case scenario and Terps was right. They don't have a plan. They will waste Barkley and OBJs prime years while they find and then ramp a QB.
If the Giants pick a QB in April, and steadily collect talent and depth, this offseason, what's so misguided about that?
In 2004 the same arguments were made, but with more urgency, when it came to Toomer, Barber and Shockey.
It will take a few years, it sucks but it's true. Hopefully it will take less time for a new QB than it did Manning.
The Giants are long shot to win anything in 2019. I think a very cogent plan is to draft a QB, make a few solid UFA acquisitions, cull the big cap numbers of underachievers, and use the 9 remaining picks to stockpile depth.
Let Manning take the beating like Warner did, and bring the new guy along in the 2nd half of the season.
I mean KL could be the Giants succession plan, but it sure doesn't feel like it currently.
Eli played excellent on Sunday & the offense played a very solid game, but what happened? Eli threw a late pick trying to get chunk yards and everyone lost their shit. That’s the problem & it’s no fault of Eli.
if they draft an edge rusher in the first or one of the stud dt i won’t be faulting them, but if a touted qb prospect is there and they choose an interior guard I will be somewhat amazed.
waiting for a perfect storm is not a cogent strategy. it will also cause a new qb to burn a season or two of beckham and barkley a year or two behind taking one now. now that’s not to say eli’s replacement comes in 2019 but i sure hope it’s because the value and options at other positions was better than the value and options at qb. not because they need to get everything else right. The Giants were not set everywhere in 79 nor in 04 when they drafted their franchise qbs.
The Giants teams that i watched that were good had ascending talents or established talents playing together on offense and defense.
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If this strategy is true, then it is the worst case scenario and Terps was right. They don't have a plan. They will waste Barkley and OBJs prime years while they find and then ramp a QB.
If the Giants pick a QB in April, and steadily collect talent and depth, this offseason, what's so misguided about that?
In 2004 the same arguments were made, but with more urgency, when it came to Toomer, Barber and Shockey.
It will take a few years, it sucks but it's true. Hopefully it will take less time for a new QB than it did Manning.
The Giants are long shot to win anything in 2019. I think a very cogent plan is to draft a QB, make a few solid UFA acquisitions, cull the big cap numbers of underachievers, and use the 9 remaining picks to stockpile depth.
Let Manning take the beating like Warner did, and bring the new guy along in the 2nd half of the season.
I personally think that as long as Eli is on the roster, he will continue to start and take the vast majority of the practice snaps. That and having a legend on the team casting a shadow over you, make it difficult for a young QB to develop. Watching Eli be the consummate professional only helps so much.
I personally think that as long as Eli is on the roster, he will continue to start and take the vast majority of the practice snaps. That and having a legend on the team casting a shadow over you, make it difficult for a young QB to develop. Watching Eli be the consummate professional only helps so much.
If we're talking likely, yes I agree. Like I posted above, it's always the same bet the Giants will do the safe, loyal thing.
No whether it's by design or not, they are letting Manning take the beating.
And it's going to happen a little next year too. The chances of the Giants dropping 3 new OL into the mix, Manning being another year older, and it working out neatly day one, is naive.
It rarely ends well......
I wish the FO would see thru the errors of their ways, but they cannot for whatever reason you want to put on it. But we simply are not going to be a playoff team again with Eli...ever.
If the strategy is to improve everywhere else because we are so "stable" at QB, then enjoy the continuing losing seasons while we get better at some of those positions/get worse in others/stay flat in yet others. They all aren't just going to get better...you know that right?
Commit to other options at QB sooner vs later because staying this course is an easy path to nowhere.
It rarely ends well......
I agree -- Whether it comes from a cynical plan or not -- I don't like seeing Manning get his ass kicked on the way out. But that's a strong possibility.
Really think about 3 new lineman coming in next year. Now hopefully they are better players. But they will have growing pains.
Hernandez had a tough start. Solder had a really, really tough start. Omameh couldn't cut it.
So what if the Giants 1) spend a 2nd round pick on a RG 2) sign the best UFA RT 3) sign a starting center from a playoff team to a 3 year/15M contract.
And what if that ends up just like this year, takes 8 weeks to gel and one of the moves is a dud.
The concept of "mobile" gets tossed around like it should be a primary quality in a QB. But maybe it's just one tool in the arsenal for surviving if there are times the line can't do their job.
We've seen pretty regularly 1) Manning doesn't have that tool 2) there will be times when the line can't do their job.
We've seen pretty regularly 1) Manning doesn't have that tool 2) there will be times when the line can't do their job.
When these arguments happen, people usually conflate mobile with wanting a Vick or RG3. A Darnold or Foles type mobile is all we're asking for.
The other is another year or two the qb of the future is not being manufactured and getting closer to peak play to maximize beckham barkley and engram excellent talents the Giants can make a run with. probably the bigger cost to the fans and the team.
The idea the Giants have to wait for a perfect prospect smells of Eli protectionism. i get drafting Barkley and all, but the idea no one is sold on the prospects was a different seperate argument in a draft full of them.
waiting until 2020 or 2021 is possible but is a very risky proposition as well. what if other teams are jockeying? if the prospect and the pick align this year in 19 they should pull the trigger.
Eli is not playing so badly that the Giants should just dump him just for the sake of it. I agree with you that they should move on. I merely think that they should do so in a rational fashion.
So do I. What am I suggesting that is not rational?
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In comment 14234029 Britt in VA said:
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Do the Steelers (37), Saints (39), Chargers (37), Patriots (41), or any other team with a QB at Eli's age or above have the next QB sitting on the roster?
What the hell do these guys/ages have anything to do with what Eli is doing for the Giants? They have no relationship whatsoever to how you assess our QB...none.
That was a direct response to a distinct statement. Don't clip it to make it look like something it's not.
Now I really do have to sign off for awhile.
Take your time. :-)
The same reason why the Giants are going nowhere too. It is not reasonable to keep trotting him out there and expect a winning result. He is no longer a winning QB and hasn’t been for a few years now.
Now the excuse to not shed him is to focus on other positions? Ok great. Quite the strategy.
What’s next year’s excuse?
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I personally think that as long as Eli is on the roster, he will continue to start and take the vast majority of the practice snaps. That and having a legend on the team casting a shadow over you, make it difficult for a young QB to develop. Watching Eli be the consummate professional only helps so much.
If we're talking likely, yes I agree. Like I posted above, it's always the same bet the Giants will do the safe, loyal thing.
No whether it's by design or not, they are letting Manning take the beating.
And it's going to happen a little next year too. The chances of the Giants dropping 3 new OL into the mix, Manning being another year older, and it working out neatly day one, is naive.
I just believe Eli is good enough to be mediocre at this point. So if you surround him with enough talent, the Giants will live in the 6-9 win total QB paradox. WHere acquiring the QB becomes that much more difficult.
If they draft a QB in April and miss, then Barkley's rookie contract has gone and he must be paid.
If they wait until 2020, that QB has to ramp so that's really 4 years away from looking at competing. And with an average team, it would be a HUGE resource suck to acquire him.
In essence, they have to hit on a QB this draft, in a draft considered devoid of talent, picking behind other teams that also need QBs. Dire straits imo.
They brought in Smith last year, the type stop gap wannabe QB that's usually available, gave him a tryout, and people screamed bloody murder. People laughed at the Vikings and Redskins for paying what they did for so-so QBs. Those two situations are the most likely veteran alternatives to Eli. The draft this year isn't looking too good for QBs. More likely to draft a Sanchez than a Mahommes. That's the reality for replacing Eli this year. You can scream 'dump Eli' all you want, but the 'no matter what' is likely to be a shitshow.
If Eli comes back, it doesn't automatically mean the Giants don't want to move on, and aren't trying. It just means they've decided he's the best option right now rather than throwing away resources on players who aren't likely to be any better. They may be wrong.
The story is not written yet but the public commitment by this regime and the cut of Webb seemed to imply they meant what they said about years left. We will learn a lot in next few months...../
In essence, they have to hit on a QB this draft, in a draft considered devoid of talent, picking behind other teams that also need QBs. Dire straits imo.
Jim - I totally agree this is the year draft Manning's replacement.
I have a little bit of a different view on QB, I feel there are a 3 or 4 guys in every draft that can be franchise guys, and it's not always just the blue chip, big measurable guys.
I look at Deshaun Watson as a great example. I want a guy who has the arm to make most of the throws, the wheels to make up for when the line fails, and the football IQ to grasp a system.
But overall I want a cerebral and innovative HC, a patient GM, and ownership who spends. If you have the latter, you don't need a blue chip. You can succeed with a red chip type QB.
The worst team to be is like Detroit. Stafford is a dynamite player, who will never, ever win because of the rotating dysfunction of that team.
Contrast that with Baltimore. They got a ring and a run of success out of a less than blue chip guy in Flacco, and now they are in the hunt with a less than blue chip guy in Jackson. I want that.
my guess is the Giants will draft a qb more mobile than Manning or Simms (already have with Lauletta--although the original Simms was fairly spry when young prior to injury...:))
my guess is the Giants will draft a qb more mobile than Manning or Simms (already have with Lauletta--although the original Simms was fairly spry when young prior to injury...:))
Exactly. I just want functional
They brought in Smith last year, the type stop gap wannabe QB that's usually available, gave him a tryout, and people screamed bloody murder. People laughed at the Vikings and Redskins for paying what they did for so-so QBs. Those two situations are the most likely veteran alternatives to Eli. The draft this year isn't looking too good for QBs. More likely to draft a Sanchez than a Mahommes. That's the reality for replacing Eli this year. You can scream 'dump Eli' all you want, but the 'no matter what' is likely to be a shitshow.
If Eli comes back, it doesn't automatically mean the Giants don't want to move on, and aren't trying. It just means they've decided he's the best option right now rather than throwing away resources on players who aren't likely to be any better. They may be wrong.
Apologize if you read “no matter what” as view is less than that. I do not find it reasonable that we can’t replace Eli and get some good with some bad in his replacement. We get that now with Eli and it’s not getting better so maybe some other options can give Shurmur more flexibility if we don’t need a QB to win games but at lest be more athletic and mobile to extend drives and score in the red zone. Eli is a sitting duck and not interested in hanging in pocket or escaping trouble and every one of those plays could go better with a different option.
Again, not trying is an easy path to nowhere...
Eli can't play consistently from week to week. He has these "once in a while" games and that distorts the entire landscape. This games was indoors and in a comfortable setting. There is nostalgia playing in Indy...
Book this - if we keep Eli for another season, these games will be even fewer and far between.
And then what?
well said and I completely agree, people seem to let their loyalty to Eli cloud what is clearly there to see, actually its not being fair to Eli to expect him to be any better at his age, and one more thing, his father and brother were both very good NFL QBs and they should be telling him, its time...