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So... the Giants were the highest scoring team in NFC East..

dep026 : 12/31/2018 10:13 am
And two teams from the division made the playoffs. The 4th team was decimated with injuries.

Oh, by the way.... we were last in defense yards and points given up.

Just sayin....
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So according to giantstock  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 11:17 am : link
when the giants dont play well or score or lose, its Eli's fault. When they have great offensive games - he didnt do it alone.

Ignore him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Haskins talent level  
section125 : 1/1/2019 11:19 am : link
In comment 14242609 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14242600 section125 said:


Quote:



Did you know him soph year?



Of course I did. Betting overs in the Big 12 is my thing...haha


well done!
RE: RE: RE: RE: Bust rate on QBs is a factor  
ajr2456 : 1/1/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14242608 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14242599 ajr2456 said:


Quote:




Eason is a better prospect than Haskins based on what? His 16 tds and 2400 yards? Or the fact he hasnít played football in two years?



Eason was the number 1 prospect in the nation coming out of high school. He started as a true freshman. He got hurt. Shit happens. He has 1 year at Washington left.... where he is beloved on that team. Can he tank? Sure. But I believe he will be in the mix for the first orund next year.


You donít realize your hypocrisy do you?

Haskins has only played one year... cant take him

Eason has played one, which was nowhere near as good as Haskins... better NFL prospect based on nothing but Deps gut.

Have some consistency.
Is eason in this years draft?  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 11:24 am : link
No? So hes going to play ANOTHER year. Oh, thanks. So if math isnt your thing. 1 year at georgia plus 1 year at Washington means hes going to have TWO years of material shown.

If Haskins goes back, that gives him a 2nd year as well. And a chance to hone his skills to be in the conversation as well. Understand now?
RE: Is eason in this years draft?  
ajr2456 : 1/1/2019 11:28 am : link
In comment 14242629 dep026 said:
Quote:
No? So hes going to play ANOTHER year. Oh, thanks. So if math isnt your thing. 1 year at georgia plus 1 year at Washington means hes going to have TWO years of material shown.

If Haskins goes back, that gives him a 2nd year as well. And a chance to hone his skills to be in the conversation as well. Understand now?


You said heís a better prospect than Haskins based off nothing. That second year means nothing talking about today. Youíd pass on a guy because another guy has a hypothetical second year?

Youíre basing him being better than Haskins off one year. Thatís not being
So what youre saying  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 11:32 am : link
is Haskins is better prospect based off stats?

Ok. Lot of people were enamored wit hEason after his freshman year. Its about projecting. Isnt it?
RE: So what youre saying  
ajr2456 : 1/1/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14242645 dep026 said:
Quote:
is Haskins is better prospect based off stats?

Ok. Lot of people were enamored wit hEason after his freshman year. Its about projecting. Isnt it?


Haskins year of film, granted he was older, was better than Easonís from just a film perspective.

Take into account the injury, and Haskins is a better prospect right now.
To you....  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 11:43 am : link
not everyone share the same sentiments.
RE: To you....  
ajr2456 : 1/1/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14242666 dep026 said:
Quote:
not everyone share the same sentiments.


But yet youíre the one here laughing off other peopleís sentments...
RE: RE: To you....  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 11:52 am : link
In comment 14242681 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14242666 dep026 said:


Quote:


not everyone share the same sentiments.



But yet youíre the one here laughing off other peopleís sentments...


Sometimes laughter is the best medicine. Not everyone in this world is miserable.
RE: They are only going to take a QB  
giantstock : 1/1/2019 12:04 pm : link
In comment 14242522 section125 said:
Quote:
if that kid is a near certainty.

They need ER, OT/OL, FS and CB help right away. Even a pass rush LB type if exceptional. I still feel that is what they do. The defense is just garbage and a couple tweaks on the oline would go a long way. OC needs to be a focus too in order to stymie the push up the middle.

Of course until we see what they focus on in FA, there is no way to know the direction DG takes in the draft beofre FA.


You're exacty right. If the GMen feel he isn;t it then ofc pass-- but they better be right. I read dg can't be right all the time which is correct. But he keeps his job or loses his job based on his degree of being right or wrong. He better be rightifhe passes on him.

What gets me is the fanaticism though by some to just dump on Haskins without reading. As I posted before-

My view he looks good so does Bleacher report, walter Camp, Sb Nation, NBC sports, Sporting News, Mel Kiper, Fotballmaven, Thunderdogpsorts. - ANd Pro football weekly had an article in October saying hsi stock was rising as the 1st qb to be taken only after 6 games but the writer expressed caution that he had to see more. SO he didnt assign a number but so far he's been off thecharts.

I dont know but I expect the Gmen to know. But what gets me is posters liek the op just blinded by ELi fanatcism. The points he makes about Haskins are addressed within some of the references i cited above. DO you think he'll even take ONE SECOND toto look into it? He won't A guy such as Kiper says he was in denial but after so such a strong season he relented and now is 10.

People like the OP and his ilk arent going into this with no open mind. They herd in October that some scouts anted to see more from Haskins or maybe Sy didnt like him in ealry october? but you get the feeling many have changed their minds.

**And as I mentioned above of Profootballweekly the writer specifically adresses so few games in his October article. He says let's see how the rest of the season plays out. Well- we know how it has so far he's been outstanding. Yet what do keep reading from the OP - still hacking away at Haskins. OFC he could be right but imo this guy is a pathetic hero-worshipping fan. He is dug in on ELi and he doesn't want to hear shit - and he;ll keep making up stuff to stkkc up for his hero. I'm acknowledging 'I don't know." BUT

as I referenced MANy have turned the corner on Haskins because they have him in the top ten and nearly all have him as the top qb now.

And ofc you'll keep reading how the OP will keep pushing that people say get Haskins at all costs on this thread implying me. It;s a false narrative which he continually spouts on this subject and on ELi.

Im identifying references and can provide links. WHile the OP uses cliche look at Ohio State QBs of the past. It is mentioned butn anyways do you think all the services that have him in top 10 including Kiper don't know about OSU QB's of the past? I think Iread that this guy is different. Do you really think the OP is going to care? It's all about protecting his hero.
People like the OP?  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 12:06 pm : link
I guess thats me. The same guy who wanted Darnold more than Barkley last year.

So I guess you dont know shit about shit?
RE: RE: RE: Bust rate on QBs is a factor  
giantstock : 1/1/2019 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14242604 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14242589 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 14242567 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


but not one to prevent the front office doing EVERYTHING they can find a quality replacement for Eli this season.

It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.

Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...



See if we have the season we had this year... there are going to be options galore for QB.

Tua
Fromm
Herbert - he was the supposed best this year
Eason

We can start with those 4 and I am sure there will be a handful of others as well. I can argue those 4 are better prospects than Haskins or Jones or lock.

Iíd be pretty stoked to land one of them.



Well then its done...Giants will just draft their future star QB in 2020. Nothing else to consider.


The OP is laughable. Doesn;t for one second think what will happen if Eli starts, the Gmen getTWO Linemen in free agency, draft a pass rusher that;s an impact in round 1-- the how the hell are we going to be in position to get any of the top 4 QB's?

Oh yeah simple WE:LL JUST TRADE UP -- EASY_ no one lese wants these stud QB's and we have so much talent we cna just easily give away future draft picks for a young QB which means we wont be ready to possibly be a contender until at least 2021. More tick tock tick tock with our RB Barkley.
So improving the team  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 12:15 pm : link
on the OL and defense through the draft is laughable?

Holy Shit. BBI sucks.
Barkley's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/1/2019 12:21 pm : link
3 year life span is rearing its ugly head again!!
RE: Barkley's..  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 12:23 pm : link
In comment 14242731 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
3 year life span is rearing its ugly head again!!


thats why its laughable to want to improve the OL and defense.
...  
christian : 1/1/2019 12:24 pm : link
It's getting very difficult to agree with the guys on here, I agree with about Mannkng :)
RE: Barkley's..  
section125 : 1/1/2019 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14242731 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
3 year life span is rearing its ugly head again!!


Does he evaporate at 24 yrs old?
He will..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/1/2019 12:30 pm : link
be cooked in 3 years. In fact, time is so precious, we shouldn't waste time discussing him as it is literally taking years off of his career.

That's why we needed to draft a QB this year and then draft Barkley in 2022!!

Or as some theorize, we can just sign the guy bagging groceries at the Publix as RB's are all basically the same.
dont forget  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 12:31 pm : link
we have to draft a QB this year or else the whole organization will cease to exist. They may eliminate the Giants altogether if they dont get a new one.

A lot of pressure.
Damn, I didn't realize the  
section125 : 1/1/2019 12:33 pm : link
peril SB and the team were in. Bubble wrap and add him to the PUP list for protection.
That's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/1/2019 12:35 pm : link
actually an excellent idea. OJ Anderson and Adrian Peterson are two prime examples of how giving a back a rest can lead to renewed production.

Sit Barkley until we have a QB for 2 years and then unleash the Kraken!!

Lombardi in 2024!!
RE: That's..  
section125 : 1/1/2019 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14242759 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
actually an excellent idea. OJ Anderson and Adrian Peterson are two prime examples of how giving a back a rest can lead to renewed production.

Sit Barkley until we have a QB for 2 years and then unleash the Kraken!!

Lombardi in 2024!!


Don't stop there, bubble wrap and PUP for OBJ and Engram too. Tank for 2020 draft.
Championship!
RE: So improving the team  
giantstock : 1/1/2019 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14242718 dep026 said:
Quote:
on the OL and defense through the draft is laughable?

Holy Shit. BBI sucks.


Who siad this?

You have quotes who said this or are you now in full lyinmg mode?

Pelease provdie the quotes that said drafting th OLine or DL is laughable.

I think oyu are lying. No one said it. I'm calling you a liar.

Liar.
Liar.
Liar.

Please provide the quotes who said drafting OL and dl is laughable. wt=hata was laughabel was your suggestion IF the Gmen get the OL and dl that we'd probalby get through FA and draft thatthye will win too many games ot get the elite QB

YOU ARE A LIAR
YOU ARE LYING
YOU ARE MISRESRENTING POSTS.
THis is the type of things fanatics like you do.
RE: RE: So improving the team  
section125 : 1/1/2019 12:58 pm : link
In comment 14242781 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14242718 dep026 said:


Quote:


on the OL and defense through the draft is laughable?

Holy Shit. BBI sucks.



Who siad this?

You have quotes who said this or are you now in full lyinmg mode?

Pelease provdie the quotes that said drafting th OLine or DL is laughable.

I think oyu are lying. No one said it. I'm calling you a liar.

Liar.
Liar.
Liar.

Please provide the quotes who said drafting OL and dl is laughable. wt=hata was laughabel was your suggestion IF the Gmen get the OL and dl that we'd probalby get through FA and draft thatthye will win too many games ot get the elite QB

YOU ARE A LIAR
YOU ARE LYING
YOU ARE MISRESRENTING POSTS.
THis is the type of things fanatics like you do.


quaaludes are your friend..
Just simply go with "Liar Liar. Pants on Fire"  
Jimmy Googs : 1/1/2019 1:01 pm : link
and end it next time...
Iím a liar  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 1:19 pm : link
Yet says to me that I am close minded and donít want a QB change and never have.

Howís it go... Iím rubber and youíre glue... or whatever the fuck it is.

Keep talking out of your ass stock. I am going to go hang with my ďilkĒ. Iíll continue to look to see how the giants can get better. You keep writing novels about whatever nonsense youíve been writing the whole time.


From what Iíve read from your mombo jombo... we have to draft a QB no matter what because an improved team next year means we canít even get a good AB.

Makes sense
RE: RE: RE: RE: Bust rate on QBs is a factor  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 1:23 pm : link
In comment 14242713 giantstock said:
Quote:

The OP is laughable. Doesn;t for one second think what will happen if Eli starts, the Gmen getTWO Linemen in free agency, draft a pass rusher that;s an impact in round 1-- the how the hell are we going to be in position to get any of the top 4 QB's?

Oh yeah simple WE:LL JUST TRADE UP -- EASY_ no one lese wants these stud QB's and we have so much talent we cna just easily give away future draft picks for a young QB which means we wont be ready to possibly be a contender until at least 2021. More tick tock tick tock with our RB Barkley.


Lets break down this gem:
1. So we cant trade up huh?

Jets traded up to 3.
Buffalo traded up to 7.
Arizona traded up to 10.
Baltimore traded to 32.

So not only does your post make ZERO SENSE. We just saw 4 instances LAST year disproving your theory!!!

Great job Einstein!

Oh and the year before, didnt the Chiefs trade up to get Mahomes? Didnt the Bears trade up to get trubinsky? The year before that didnt the eagles trade up for Wentz?

You wanna keep going? Because this is embarrasing in itself. I mean mic dropped bad.
But hey  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 1:25 pm : link
Mel Kiper said something different, so lets go with that. Ask Russell Wilson what he thinks about that....
How many times do I have to say Eli  
USAF NYG Fan : 1/1/2019 1:39 pm : link
is average before people stop claiming I'm calling him the 2nd coming of Joe Montana.

As to the QBR thing and the top QBs consistently being on top. Let's look:

Tom Brady: 97.7 Rating or 70.6 Total QBR (ESPN version) if you prefer.
5th ranked rushing offense. 21st ranked defense.
The popular choice for GOAT right now.

Russel Wilson: 110.9 or 65.6
1st ranked rushing offense. 16th ranked defense.
One of my favorite QBs right now.

Patrick Mahomes: 113.8 or 81.6
16th ranked rushing offense. 31st ranked defense.
This QB and passing offense are on fire.

Drew Brees: 115.7 or 80.8
6th ranked rushing offense. 14th ranked defense.
Drew Brees is in contention for the GOAT as far as I'm concerned.

Matt Ryan: 108.1 or 68.2
27th ranked rushing offense. 28th ranked defense.
He's having a pretty good year IMHO.

Philip Rivers: 105.5 or 70.2
15th ranked rushing offense. 9th ranked defense.
I think he's having a good year.

Andrew Luck: 98.7 or 71.7
20th ranked rushing offense. 11th ranked defense.
Nothing to add except first year back.

Aaron Rogers: 97.6 or 60.6
22nd ranked rushing offense. 18th ranked defense.
Also has been in contention as the GOAT. Not this year! Not even close.

Dak Prescott: 96.9 or 57.8
10th ranked rushing offense. 7th ranked defense.

Jared Goff: 101.1 or 66.4
3rd ranked rushing offense. 19th ranked defense.

Cam Newton: 94.2 or 55.9
4th ranked rushing offense. 15th ranked defense.

Ben Roethlisberger: 96.5 or 71.8
31st ranked rushing offense. 6th ranked defense.

Eli Manning: 92.4 or 51.8
24th ranked rushing offense. 24th ranked defense.
The fact that the Giants have the 2nd leading rusher in the league with Barkley but are ranked 24th says a lot. Their run vs pass ration explains it even more. RUN THE DAMN BALL!

Not including Wentz or Smith due to injuries. Foles not enough time playing. Similar for other QBs. Tell me if I missed someone important.

Why am I pointing out their rushing offense and defensive ranks? A QB has very little control over having a good to great rushing game. At best, they can look at the coverage and switch in or out of a run. They have absolutely no control over how a defense performs. However, as we all know, a solid run game can help a defense by giving them more time to rest. QB's, in turn, have to overcome a poor rushing offense or a poor defense to win games.

Therefore, let's see what Eli Manning has to overcome by averaging all these QB's team rankings with a better rating than Eli Manning;

Average Offensive rush ranking: 13.33 or 13th by rounding.
Average Defensive ranking: 16.25 or 16th by rounding.

Eli has to overcome deficits of 11 ranks in rushing offense and 8 ranks in defense. This is not cherry picking at all. These are very legit stats. Eli has little to no control over the rushing offense and absolutely no control over the defense. You can do this same check every year because the Giants' defense has not been good. Their rushing offense has not been good. At least not consistently year to year. In 2011, both were on the bottom of the league and that's why I say Eli had that one 'Elite" year. His QBR that year was top 10, barely, ranking 10th.

BTW, the Giants passing offense, is ranked 11th. Call me crazy but I think the QB has something to do with that. From the above list that's ranked higher than Wilson, Brees, Luck, Rogers, Prescott, and Newton. Am I saying Eli is better than them, no. Sure as hell not Brees, Wilson, Rogers, or Luck. It just goes towards showing that the QBR is a bullshit stat. Always has been and always will be. It claims to factor everything in but it doesn't.

I will also again repeat that I think Eli Manning is average right now. He is not part of the problem or the solution. The team can win with him if they fix the other parts but should absolutely go for the heir apparent when they identify one that's worthy. They should look to improve every position on the roster when possible but shouldn't reach because of the importance of the position. I don't want to go through Brown, Kanell, Graham, and Collins again. I'd rather hold on to average and build the team around him and for the next QB.

Also of note, the team had exactly 8 games before and after the bye. The team significantly improved after the bye. It improved when Gettleman and Shurmur shifted the OL. It improved when they significantly started running the ball more and passing less. Again I saw, they are figuring it out. Pass rush has become priority 1A (I say that because the upcoming draft seems to favor pass rushers to me). OL is 1B. QB, based on both need and strength of the draft, are hardly even on my radar for 2019.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Bust rate on QBs is a factor  
ajr2456 : 1/1/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14242808 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14242713 giantstock said:


Quote:



The OP is laughable. Doesn;t for one second think what will happen if Eli starts, the Gmen getTWO Linemen in free agency, draft a pass rusher that;s an impact in round 1-- the how the hell are we going to be in position to get any of the top 4 QB's?

Oh yeah simple WE:LL JUST TRADE UP -- EASY_ no one lese wants these stud QB's and we have so much talent we cna just easily give away future draft picks for a young QB which means we wont be ready to possibly be a contender until at least 2021. More tick tock tick tock with our RB Barkley.



Lets break down this gem:
1. So we cant trade up huh?

Jets traded up to 3.
Buffalo traded up to 7.
Arizona traded up to 10.
Baltimore traded to 32.

So not only does your post make ZERO SENSE. We just saw 4 instances LAST year disproving your theory!!!

Great job Einstein!

Oh and the year before, didnt the Chiefs trade up to get Mahomes? Didnt the Bears trade up to get trubinsky? The year before that didnt the eagles trade up for Wentz?

You wanna keep going? Because this is embarrasing in itself. I mean mic dropped bad.


Youíd be ok trading picks to move up? What if that guys busts?
Iím not an advocate for it  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 1:49 pm : link
Just proving this dimwits theory as false as false can be.
RE: Iím not an advocate for it  
ajr2456 : 1/1/2019 2:38 pm : link
In comment 14242833 dep026 said:
Quote:
Just proving this dimwits theory as false as false can be.


Just because teams traded up last year doesnít mean the opportunity is going to present itself next year.

You cant bank on someone wanting to trade with you and the price being reasonable.
RE: RE: Iím not an advocate for it  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 2:47 pm : link
In comment 14242897 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14242833 dep026 said:


Quote:


Just proving this dimwits theory as false as false can be.



Just because teams traded up last year doesnít mean the opportunity is going to present itself next year.

You cant bank on someone wanting to trade with you and the price being reasonable.


The opportunity arrives every year.
RE: RE: RE: Iím not an advocate for it  
ajr2456 : 1/1/2019 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14242904 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14242897 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14242833 dep026 said:


Quote:


Just proving this dimwits theory as false as false can be.



Just because teams traded up last year doesnít mean the opportunity is going to present itself next year.

You cant bank on someone wanting to trade with you and the price being reasonable.



The opportunity arrives every year.


In a vacuum sure. Then thereís cost, teams wanting to trade out of their spot, the player you want being there.

What if four QB needy teams get the top 4 picks? What if two of the QBs stay in school?

The opportunity in theory arrives every year. The opportunity isnít always as realistic as youíre making it out to be.
Actually  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 2:55 pm : link
by precentage the opportunity is a near lock. 80% last year. 66% the year before. 66% the year before that.
RE: Actually  
ajr2456 : 1/1/2019 3:09 pm : link
In comment 14242912 dep026 said:
Quote:
by precentage the opportunity is a near lock. 80% last year. 66% the year before. 66% the year before that.


Once again ignoring the point.

Of course there will be trades. Will the Giants be in a position to trade up? Will the asking price be too high for them? Will someone out bid them for a spot? Will the teams in key spots want to trade or take the QB themselves?

Those are all things you canít guarantee.
USAF  
hassan : 1/1/2019 3:39 pm : link
all stats in football are team dependent.

The 11th ranked passing game also has a high correlation to attempts which the Giants are actually 9th in.

we are going to agree to disagree to some extent - qbr has some correlation of quality of play-since it considers ypa and td pct and int pct. More about efficiency than aggregation.

donít disagree with a fair amount you said though. never suggested you claimed eli was still old eli 😃. believe thatís directed elsewhere.

there is no objective way to factor things like the quality of team around a qb so maybe in the future a stat which factors drops, time in pocket, and other metrics emerges which better describes individual impact.

Hassan  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 3:55 pm : link
here is my problem with QBR. Again, I am not going to say it doesnt have merrit. But I look back to one week imparticular....

Week 11 vs. TB.

Eli Manning was 18 inches away from having a perfect day passing with 3 TDs. The 18 inches was he threw the ball on the wrong shoulder of Barkley. 18 inches from doing everything EXACTLY what a QB needed to do.

He was flawless. He was near perfect. But still only good enough for 11th of the week! 10 other QBs were considered to have better days.

Now I am not saying this is the case every week, or that other QBs didnt play better. But he literally played the perfect game, and his QBR doesnt reflect it.

It also rewards QBs who run more than pocket passers. Which can really skew the data.
dep  
hassan : 1/1/2019 4:13 pm : link
qbr per game is not enough sample size that is for sure. it gets better with more attempts. qbr does not factor for the quality of the team and it does not account specifics of the situations in games (why itís better over a stretch of games).......

ultimately we have to use a series of metrics and some consideration of the situation to evaluate qbs.

But in almost every case, players we consider great correlate with high qbr relative to their peers for a season or a a career.

in fact, Eli may be the most oddball case in NFL history-great impact with relatively average qbr with respect to peers.

Anyway, Eli was not my focus in this. just a mid 90s qbr was once stellar, itís a median number in todayís nfl.
RE: mattyblue and giantstock  
giantstock : 1/1/2019 8:09 pm : link
In comment 14242447 USAF NYG Fan said:
Quote:

Giantstock, I'm not annoyed with you specifically as several people say the same thing. I also get annoyed when people say that Eli didn't earn his SB MVPs because the defense won those. it's simply wrong. As to you claiming you are not assuming Gettleman is willing to trade back because he hasn't done it before is, in fact, an assumption. You are assuming he won't trade back because he's never done it before but he hasn't even had that many opportunities to do so. I still believe Gettleman is capable of making any available decision during the draft and is open to all options. I'm not making the assumption, you are. If there was some kind of legitimate evidence to support that Gettleman doesn't consider trade downs, you might have something. Simply not doing it yet does not a case make. It's like saying if you rolled a couple dice 5 times and never got snake eyes, you never will. This is a logical fallacy. Post hoc ergo propter hoc

Additionally, you continue to be stuck on this point scored thing. Like I believe this be some all great measurement. All I'm saying is it does matter. It does say something. You make it sound like I think it's the most important stat in the world. I'll remind you for the last time that I followed up with the defense allowing more points stat as I thought that was more telling. You seem to be having trouble getting past that point. You're the one fixated on it. I'm not. If you think that a team's OL doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think that a team's defense doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the run game doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the game plan doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think penalties doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think etc. etc. etc. Now, how much of that information really goes into the QBR?

As to Dep, yea, he's Eli's biggest defender on here and I don't fault him for that. There are just as many on the opposite side that constantly bash Eli that you seem to discount. It's gotten ridiculous on both sides of that coin. I'm thankful to Dep on occasions .


As stated USAF I respect your opinion but disagree on everything you view vs what I view though i think we both agree we can't do much about it and just hope DGmakes the rightchoices.

Point 1-- I disagree that you are saying "assumption." It is fact that he hasn't done it before. Until he does it would be extreme to assume he wil be creative when has not shown ot be creative. It would be an assumption on both sides to say if he will or he won't. You seemed to imply/assume/predict he will in the 4th round. So if you can do it- so can I. I just want to see him do it and not assume he will though in my view that would be near meaningless in comparison to the context of our point of what Philly did to get Wentz vs what DG might do to get a 02 QB by trading up. IMO it would be an assumption to say he can do it successfully. If he does get creative in trades then I'll believe it. Until then I think he's a blcokhead with litle imagination per the reasons I've cited before. SHow me. I don't care about "assumptions" which you seem ot want to refer to this to.

If need be show me dg you can do something creative until then what makes you think he is capable? Your hope? Nothing he has done so far has been creative except he shocked many of in believing this team was good early on.

Point 2-- Youmention I can get past the "Points scored" issue. But that's the subject of this thread. It leads me to your points that I don't criticize those that hammer Eli at all costs. Butthat's not the subject of this thread. Its kind of strange you feel on this thread I should have a priority to do so. The points scored is to the issue I was arguing with the start of this thread so going after the the ones who always post against ELi doesn't address the issue.

DOes it mean every time I have a problem with a pro ELi thread I MUST make an absolute statement of the dummies who always criticize him for all things that have gone wrong?

If I see some thread and some idiot blaming ELi for everything i'm not going to go off-topic and bring up the silly comments made by this OP who looks to protect eli at all costs thus there is no reason for me to do on this one.

Point 3-- Are you trying to validate "points scored" vs QbR rating and justifying the absuridity ofthe OP implying that some of us who have criticized Eli that we're absurd to say eli hasn't been very good at all?He;s using "points scored" against us so you can't say I'm hung up on it when he is trying to use it to show how wrong we are that criticize. And you seem to be more on his side so ofc i'm going to put it back on you. You seem to be trying to justify it in this case. It's unjustifiable.

Point 4-- You said it does matter I say in this case it is hogwash vs QBR. QBR shows what you see with your eyeball. Points scored is beyond useless. You mention how the OL is for example affecting the QB sure you would be right but this leads to point 5-- which 4 and 5 and 6 are related

Point 5-- Also the QB affects the OL - he can make it better or worse. It's not all the OL. And what about the coach and maybe these coaches? How much of a level do we need ot go????? That's the extreme I think you're taking this. The QB affects the defense that's why you're issue of defense is completely irrelevant which I'll address in 6. When evaluating ulating the topic of this thread "poits scored" it can't tell us who is more reponsible. ANd yte you are justifying it. who si mroe repsonsible for all these [points: is it Barkley, or Eli, or the comeption (for example we catch teams with 2nd string QB's and teams devatsed by injuires or have easier shceules oetc. Barkley makes a usper run vs Dallas and yet the title of the thread is Eli puts up 35. SO imo you need ot hsow how the offense alos affetcs the defnse and what;s Eli's impact.

Point 6-- you indicate the defense- but you look at it with little to no view as to what the Gmen are doing on offense as to how it affects the defense. Toptenhammer, the poster, cited in games things eli could have done so much during critical situation such that we wouldnt have lost. This is just a small window as to how for example opposing defenses can stack the box and dare Eli to beat them. SO when teams stack the box and we can;t run out the clock wouldn;t it stand to reason that the QB has some blame in this? Yet all we're going to do is blame the defense even though the team this year was built more for it's offense and because Barkley is keyed on After all, this team was built for it's offense. SHOULD HAVE BEE N BETTER.

Wen th KC Chiefs play they know they have to score. So if thye put up 30 points thorugh 3 but dont do shit in the 4th and can;t hodl the lead it's all on the KC defense? To start teh season thsi Gmen offense was supposed ot carry thsi team. They put a lot intohigh dratf picks for the offense. This offense was usppose dot keep the defense of the field. Onstead the opsoing teams stack the line and dare the Gmen to beat them wiht ELi and the wr's.

What you have to consider in all this Eli bashing is that their is an undercurrent which many like the OP ignore in that he's OLD. Sure it's acknowledged but then we all get the same tired response "but he gives us our best chance to win." The point is he doesnt give this team the best chance to win future super bowls. That ship has sailed. His slower read play a factor in his effectiveness and as a result put more pressure on the defense that what it should.

Point 7 - You don;t fault the OP for being a fanatic -I do.
That may set the record  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 8:12 pm : link
For most typos in a post in the history of BBI.
RE: Barkley's..  
giantstock : 1/1/2019 9:25 pm : link
In comment 14242731 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
3 year life span is rearing its ugly head again!!


Three year life span for who? WHo quoted a 3 year life span on a player? Are you referring to Barkley? WHo said he only had a 3 year lifespan?

Or is this "everyone on deck and misrepresnt anoyne that posts against our beloved Eli," the way the OP does?

Otherwise please provide the quotes.
you love to see people are misrepresenting things  
dep026 : 1/1/2019 9:49 pm : link
yet you havent proven dick. You accused me and other Eli fans of being close minded to changing QBs and not wanting a change when the majority of us wanted Sam Darnold in the last draft.

So heres an idea. Shut the hell up. And stop accusing people of things you dont know dick about.
Do people really expect to have their  
B in ALB : 1/1/2019 9:53 pm : link
9 paragraph posts read? Holy shit.

"Point 7?"

Gtfohwts.
RE: RE: mattyblue and giantstock  
USAF NYG Fan : 1/2/2019 6:26 am : link
In comment 14243396 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14242447 USAF NYG Fan said:


Quote:



As stated USAF I respect your opinion but disagree on everything you view vs what I view though i think we both agree we can't do much about it and just hope DGmakes the rightchoices.

Point 1-- I disagree that you are saying "assumption." It is fact that he hasn't done it before. Until he does it would be extreme to assume he wil be creative when has not shown ot be creative. It would be an assumption on both sides to say if he will or he won't. You seemed to imply/assume/predict he will in the 4th round. So if you can do it- so can I. I just want to see him do it and not assume he will though in my view that would be near meaningless in comparison to the context of our point of what Philly did to get Wentz vs what DG might do to get a 02 QB by trading up. IMO it would be an assumption to say he can do it successfully. If he does get creative in trades then I'll believe it. Until then I think he's a blcokhead with litle imagination per the reasons I've cited before. SHow me. I don't care about "assumptions" which you seem ot want to refer to this to.

If need be show me dg you can do something creative until then what makes you think he is capable? Your hope? Nothing he has done so far has been creative except he shocked many of in believing this team was good early on.

Point 2-- Youmention I can get past the "Points scored" issue. But that's the subject of this thread. It leads me to your points that I don't criticize those that hammer Eli at all costs. Butthat's not the subject of this thread. Its kind of strange you feel on this thread I should have a priority to do so. The points scored is to the issue I was arguing with the start of this thread so going after the the ones who always post against ELi doesn't address the issue.

DOes it mean every time I have a problem with a pro ELi thread I MUST make an absolute statement of the dummies who always criticize him for all things that have gone wrong?

If I see some thread and some idiot blaming ELi for everything i'm not going to go off-topic and bring up the silly comments made by this OP who looks to protect eli at all costs thus there is no reason for me to do on this one.

Point 3-- Are you trying to validate "points scored" vs QbR rating and justifying the absuridity ofthe OP implying that some of us who have criticized Eli that we're absurd to say eli hasn't been very good at all?He;s using "points scored" against us so you can't say I'm hung up on it when he is trying to use it to show how wrong we are that criticize. And you seem to be more on his side so ofc i'm going to put it back on you. You seem to be trying to justify it in this case. It's unjustifiable.

Point 4-- You said it does matter I say in this case it is hogwash vs QBR. QBR shows what you see with your eyeball. Points scored is beyond useless. You mention how the OL is for example affecting the QB sure you would be right but this leads to point 5-- which 4 and 5 and 6 are related

Point 5-- Also the QB affects the OL - he can make it better or worse. It's not all the OL. And what about the coach and maybe these coaches? How much of a level do we need ot go????? That's the extreme I think you're taking this. The QB affects the defense that's why you're issue of defense is completely irrelevant which I'll address in 6. When evaluating ulating the topic of this thread "poits scored" it can't tell us who is more reponsible. ANd yte you are justifying it. who si mroe repsonsible for all these [points: is it Barkley, or Eli, or the comeption (for example we catch teams with 2nd string QB's and teams devatsed by injuires or have easier shceules oetc. Barkley makes a usper run vs Dallas and yet the title of the thread is Eli puts up 35. SO imo you need ot hsow how the offense alos affetcs the defnse and what;s Eli's impact.

Point 6-- you indicate the defense- but you look at it with little to no view as to what the Gmen are doing on offense as to how it affects the defense. Toptenhammer, the poster, cited in games things eli could have done so much during critical situation such that we wouldnt have lost. This is just a small window as to how for example opposing defenses can stack the box and dare Eli to beat them. SO when teams stack the box and we can;t run out the clock wouldn;t it stand to reason that the QB has some blame in this? Yet all we're going to do is blame the defense even though the team this year was built more for it's offense and because Barkley is keyed on After all, this team was built for it's offense. SHOULD HAVE BEE N BETTER.

Wen th KC Chiefs play they know they have to score. So if thye put up 30 points thorugh 3 but dont do shit in the 4th and can;t hodl the lead it's all on the KC defense? To start teh season thsi Gmen offense was supposed ot carry thsi team. They put a lot intohigh dratf picks for the offense. This offense was usppose dot keep the defense of the field. Onstead the opsoing teams stack the line and dare the Gmen to beat them wiht ELi and the wr's.

What you have to consider in all this Eli bashing is that their is an undercurrent which many like the OP ignore in that he's OLD. Sure it's acknowledged but then we all get the same tired response "but he gives us our best chance to win." The point is he doesnt give this team the best chance to win future super bowls. That ship has sailed. His slower read play a factor in his effectiveness and as a result put more pressure on the defense that what it should.

Point 7 - You don;t fault the OP for being a fanatic -I do.


giantstock,

I respect your opinion too. I offer you no ill will. Yes, we both know it's up to Gettleman to make the right choice. I will respond to each of your "points" and then that will be it for me on this thread. I just don't have the time so agree to disagree. If you post a rebuttal, I will read it and respect your opinion on it. I don't wish to ignore you as you make some decent points. Again, agree to disagree.

Point 1: I don't think you understand how assumption works. I don't assume Gettleman will do anything based on his past. Literally, everything that he can do is open as an option. His past does not his future make. To "assume" he will do something based on his past, especially such a short past history, is a logical fallacy. You are assuming he will not trade down. I am not assuming he will do anything but simply accept trading down is, in fact, one of his options that he may or may not choose. That, in no way, is an assumption on my part.

Point 2: You are tying me into the OP. I'm not the OP. My responses have been to you like yours have been to me but I didn't post about the OP's point specifically other than supporting one of his points with extra data. That extra data was not about "point scored". If you want specifics on who, what, when, where, why, and how of "points scored", I suggest you ask the OP. In fact, our conversations have helped derail the thread which I didn't mean to do and is another reason why this will be my last post on it.

Point 3: Again, I never compared "points scored" vs QBR. I've answered this before. This is really Point 2 worded differently. New question though about QBR being the same as the eyeball test I've already explained before as well. It's supposed to be that way but to me, it's not. I had a whole seperate post showing why I think QBR is a garbage stat. Several other posters showed why it's flawed. Nothing will fix it because there are way way way too many variables involved for the QB position. It will never be a worthwile stat.

Point 4: How many different ways are you going to re-word this and call it a different point? That's rhetorical.

Point 5: See there it is again, "points scored". Kindly, speak to the OP about "points scored". Your multiple points have made my point for me though. Thank you.

Point 6: If you are suggesting now that Eli is affecting the defense with anymore than what I already mentioned about the running the ball more helping the defense, I can't help you with that. Sounds like you are now trying to assign some blame to Eli for the poor defense as well. I've explained several times on multiple threads that yes, all of those things and more affect the QB. Your precious QBR does not reflect those. It can't and never will. There is no such metric that can cover everything about a QB. I gave a very long post on this very thread showing just a couple of those outside factors affecting the QB with legit stats to back it up. There are a myriad of other factors I can include as well.

Here's one more and then I'm done. How were Eli's interception numbers under Gilbride compared to after Gilbride? Under Gilbride: 18, all others: 13.6. An offensive scheme affects the QB. QBR doesn't effectively factor that in. Disclaimer: This is not a complaint about Gilbride but an acknowledgement that his offense was not QB friendly. It had more risk/reward to it.

Next, are we comparing the Giants' offense to KC? Yea, that's fair. Sarcasm in case that was missed. I love how all of your examples are to the extreme direction one way or the other. I'll ask you this though, as we both acknowledge (I think) that Barkley is the team's best chance to score, why is on several games where the Giant's needed another score to win at the end, the play caller (Shurmur) didn't call Barkley's number? Hell, most of the time, he was on the sideline. A couple of those, OBJ wasn't in the game either.

Point 7: I can't fault the OP for being a fanatic and ignore everyone on the flip side of that coin like you do, no. You clearly disagree with the OP and that's fine. You even get to complain about him posting something simply because you don't agree. It's ironic but yes you can do that. It's a fan forum. It's a sports' fan forum. Go to any other sport's fan forum and you will see the same thing. It's basically what we do on these forums. If ANY OF US actually knew any better than the current Giants' staff, we would probably be working for them and not have time to post on a fan forum.
RE: Hassan  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/2/2019 10:15 am : link
In comment 14242967 dep026 said:
Quote:
here is my problem with QBR. Again, I am not going to say it doesnt have merrit. But I look back to one week imparticular....

Week 11 vs. TB.

Eli Manning was 18 inches away from having a perfect day passing with 3 TDs. The 18 inches was he threw the ball on the wrong shoulder of Barkley. 18 inches from doing everything EXACTLY what a QB needed to do.

He was flawless. He was near perfect. But still only good enough for 11th of the week! 10 other QBs were considered to have better days.

Now I am not saying this is the case every week, or that other QBs didnt play better. But he literally played the perfect game, and his QBR doesnt reflect it.

It also rewards QBs who run more than pocket passers. Which can really skew the data.


The nature of the stat is that it grades on a curve.

10/10 for 3 TDs can be perfect within what you're asked to do.

"perfect" doesn't take into account things like yards per attempt, or each throw in particular. Not all throws are the same. Most modern QB metrics grade on difficulty. The QB that hits on long downfield throws with accuracy gets more credit than the QB who's offense asks him to possess the ball and string together short passes.

When you look at the pass chart for the game, it really was a short passing game other than one deep shot to Beckham for 41 yards.

It also punishes things like fumbles and turnovers heavily, maybe excessively so.








RE: RE: Hassan  
dep026 : 1/2/2019 10:17 am : link
In comment 14243981 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:

The nature of the stat is that it grades on a curve.

10/10 for 3 TDs can be perfect within what you're asked to do.

"perfect" doesn't take into account things like yards per attempt, or each throw in particular. Not all throws are the same. Most modern QB metrics grade on difficulty. The QB that hits on long downfield throws with accuracy gets more credit than the QB who's offense asks him to possess the ball and string together short passes.

When you look at the pass chart for the game, it really was a short passing game other than one deep shot to Beckham for 41 yards.

It also punishes things like fumbles and turnovers heavily, maybe excessively so.



And I get and understand that. But sometimes these metrics dont reward you for doing what you are suppose to do. I mean whether you like Eli or not, we can agree that game he was pretty damn good. He wasnt asked to throw all over the place, but when he was - he was inches away from being perfect.

He should not be penalized for that. I mean I think Big Ben had a higher rating that week with 3 turnovers and 3 more dropped ones too.
The original Quarterback rating stat is pretty flawed too  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/2/2019 10:48 am : link
There's a reason why they're looking for new stats, because it's hard to capture an entire game worth of plays in the right context.

With QB rating, you throw a few touchdowns, you get a pretty rating even if you were foul through 3 quarters and pulled it together at the end.

I don't remember the Roethlisberger game, but Eli having the 11th highest grade that week isn't really a 'punishment'. It's just pointing out that he did his job well.

I'm not saying anything to minimize what he did. He did everything they needed him to do that game and he was great for the team in that game. But any scale has to leave room for people who play exceptionally well, too. I think Luck had the highest-rated QBR game that week, he played the Titans and went 23/29 for 297 with 3 touchdowns. And we have seen firsthand how good the Titans defense is.

He didn't complete as many passes as Eli did, but the rating is higher because he didn't have a fumble, and the opponent was much tougher.

I think the doubt around the stat just comes from the way it's computed and the factors that they take into account.
For the record....  
dep026 : 1/2/2019 10:52 am : link
I am not a fan of QB rating either. A QB can be rewarded for completing a screen pass that a player can take 80 yards for a TD. It doesnt account for fumbles lost either. There are lot of things that arent accounted for. A defender drops an INT, it doesnt show much. And with QBR it takes into when stats are accumalated.... QB rating doesnt - so the famous "garbage time stats" can inflate a QBs rating.
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