say what you want about Apple and Snacks, they can play football and would have helped considerably in the stretch, would it have mattered? No clue, but we were a weaker team for giving them up.
the defense needs a massive talent upgrade.
not that the offense is great, as most of the points and yards occurred when the season was over... so they still count.... but when the season mattered, the offense stunk as well- and blew games.
the team juts isnt good- blaming 1 guy or 1 side is pointless.
the QB is old and needs to be replaced- this year or in the next 2.
the OL needs another good player.
the defense needs 5 starters
on the positive side we have the best kicker in the league
made a huge impact and I think Shurmur and Eli both took too much criticism for offensive issues (theyre not blameless however).
The truth is a lot of yardage and points came in come from behind and garbage time. I think this is also a tad skewed from a division perspective given the Redskins went into the toilet after Smiths injury and Eagles have had some of their key personnel missing on offense (OL, RB) and unsettled QB play at the early part of the season.
It does show how horrific the defense was overall. Also shows how Beckham is not the end all be all. We can score and win without him now.
for the Gianst season I would say 50 percent defense, 30 percent OL, 10 percent Eli, 10 percent Shurmur clock management/playcalling (although I thought he greatly improved as the season went on. How much of that was improved OL play IDK). So did Eli play a roll? Yes. But to me he is 3rd on the list of culprits and way down as far as responsibility
Has been set for 2019, a few more pieces on defense and the Giants are contenders. Where have I heard this bandaid approach before? Let me know if the Giants are still in it by Halloween, Ill even be a little more generous, Columbus Day.
if you can't see what you have become on BBI, I can't help you.
at least embrace it. it will make you more endearing.
I am not really concerned what people think of me here. Never really have. There are tons of people who I respect and interact with. I just love the posters who consistently point out my agenda but stay silent on the opposite viewpoint. And thats fine. Thats what makes forums so great.
Hitdog post was a great one. Ill add this. You can have prime around Rodgers and it wont mean a hill of beans unless you fix what has been the most constant thing in our hapless 7 years outside 1.
A terrible defense.
RE: RE: Well when you have a Qb eating up a huge amount of cap
Um Brees has a big cap hit... hows their defense doing? SDs?
The difference is Brees and Rivers played up to those big cap # ..
Eli didnt and when the games mattered the Giants couldnt score points..
Also take a look at the garbage time TDs the Giants scored against Atl and Dallas when the game was already decided
that the Giants have a QB who is 38, entering the last year of his contract and has real deficiencies. If there is a QB they have confidence can be successful, they need to take him. Otherwise, draft emphasis needs to be on defense.
beat up scrub teams in the second half and collected garbage stats. when it had to score or put games away or make plays when games were against quality opponents it left much to be desired with notable exception of last two weeks.
and 369 points is a mid pack showing. curious what our median score was this year probably paints a better picture.
yes the team needs defense badly but this o was nothing great on the sun of season. if they play more like last two weeks all year maybe they are onto something.
Actually, Im not sure there were a lot of garbage time points this season. Im too lazy to look it up, but there were some stats posted yesterday about how close the Giants were in like 5 games lost. Remember too, this defense surrendered a lot of leads late in games. Every team in the NFL surrenders garbage time yards and points which is a big reason why I dont think football is a stats game like baseball. Having watched the games this season Ill say the defense was number one problem with this latest Giants losing campaign.
I want to make sure I have this accurate, so please correct me where I am mis-stating your position:
1) Shurmur is a terrible coach and play caller and very often put Eli and the offense in a bad situation
2) The O Line is horrible
3) Our weapons outside of SB are terrible or inconsistent. At different points this year, Shepard and Engram (and even OBJ) disappeared and let Eli down
4) the D if terrible and no better than college quality.
did I miss anything?
you will occasionally acknowledge a bad pass by Eli but ti is ALWAYS immediately followed by highlighting and then harping on some other mistake some one else also made.
defense scored 3 TD's and if you remove them to isolate the offense (remove the DEF/ST TD's from all teams) the Giants are behind the Eagles in points scored.
Um Brees has a big cap hit... hows their defense doing? SDs?
The difference is Brees and Rivers played up to those big cap # ..
Eli didnt and when the games mattered the Giants couldnt score points..
Also take a look at the garbage time TDs the Giants scored against Atl and Dallas when the game was already decided
Lots of teams score points in garbage time. In the end those things often even out over the course of a season when you are looking at Avg points per game. Unless you can point me to some stat showing that the Giants scored an inordinate amount in garbage time or decidedly more than other teams
but Webb is better than Eli Apple. No question. And Webb is a backup CB at best. Apple is too undisciplined and doesn't give consistent effort.
If you're a coach, you take Webb all day.
I think the problem with the move is that it also weakened the depth chart. Even if Webb was better, Apple was better than the next 3 or 4 guys that suited up thereafter. Not that I think it mattered for this season, but it wasn't like addition by subtraction for this team.
of the way things played out? Is there a stat for minutes the defenses were on the field? Amount of drives against? How many 3 and outs did the offense have in comparison to the other teams? The more your defense is on the field in a single gane, the worse they will look (stats wise and physically).
Points can come when you are always throwing from being down, and that happened quite often. I know the Defense wasn't great and needs work but lets not pretend the Giants offense was playoff worthy. Both sides need some major improvements.
The thread starter is the type of reactive thinking that has plagued the Giants for years. "The offense is good, have to improve the defense." That is no way to assess how the team performed. And even if it were, I don't think it's even accurate.
To my eyes, with the exception of Barkley the offense stunk. Remember, this offense was abysmal until the season was effectively over at 1-7 and we started facing backup quarterbacks.
1. The offense is better than it was last year and improved as the season progressed.
2. The offense still needs work - including about 2 new starters on the offensive line, another WR, and a succession plan at QB.
1. The offense is better than it was last year and improved as the season progressed.
2. The offense still needs work - including about 2 new starters on the offensive line, another WR, and a succession plan at QB.
Sure, while also including:
3. The offense just got a RB drafted 2nd overall, a guard drafted with the 34th pick, had a bunch of money spent on the OL, and was healthier than last season.
4. With all 3 above, they were marginally better than last year's debacle.
Sure there was improvement - did the improvement warrant the investment? So far, not really.
1. The offense is better than it was last year and improved as the season progressed.
2. The offense still needs work - including about 2 new starters on the offensive line, another WR, and a succession plan at QB.
Sure, while also including:
3. The offense just got a RB drafted 2nd overall, a guard drafted with the 34th pick, had a bunch of money spent on the OL, and was healthier than last season.
4. With all 3 above, they were marginally better than last year's debacle.
Sure there was improvement - did the improvement warrant the investment? So far, not really.
This line of thinking really isn't logical.
If we had taken Sam Darnold instead, you remove Saquon Barkley from the equation and almost are certainly looking at the same record (or worse) and an even less productive offense.
Would you still say the improvement didn't warrant the investment?
What series of offseason moves could have fixed the offense entirely in one offseason?
Some of the expectations for how this thing needed to progress seem very unrealistic. It's like just because Barkley and Hernandez didn't turn the Giants into a top 5 offense overnight, they weren't worth the investment.
Do you really think Hernandez was a wasted pick because the offense still needs to get better? I don't understand that at all.
The thread starter is the type of reactive thinking that has plagued the Giants for years. "The offense is good, have to improve the defense." That is no way to assess how the team performed. And even if it were, I don't think it's even accurate.
To my eyes, with the exception of Barkley the offense stunk. Remember, this offense was abysmal until the season was effectively over at 1-7 and we started facing backup quarterbacks.
I actually agree. For 12/13 games this offense was awful. The other 3-4 games they played will and did what they needed to do (for the most part).
Not good enough, those numbers should be reversed, IMO. Still need a better line, still need better play calling.
The defense needs a lot of help. An edge rusher, FS, and DB depth all need to be at the forefront of our offseason priorities.
They were completely unable to get any sort of stop late in a game when we had a lead. I think Bettcher is a fine DC but there are too many holes personnel-wise still. The 2015 defense was horrible for the same reason. But we're going to have to hit on more replacements via the draft - we can't just fix it all via FA like Reese tried to do.
My post doesnt mean to discount the defensive woes
those are clear and no point in spending time on that. But, the offense is still a problem.
Part of me wants them to cut Eli, sign Tyrod Taylor on a 1 year deal, and try running some type of RPO. Get creative, use Barkley and Beckham dynamically, and let Engram get to work with more mismatches.
Just spitballing, but the offense needs to change.
Situationally and in the red zone the offense was shit. Anyone who paid attention to the games can see it. Points scored isnt an accurate reflection.
It was certainly a fact they struggled in the red zone early in the season but were much improved once the OL stabilized and they were able to run the ball more effectively...
I mean, my plan was to draft Barkley and Lamar Jackson and run an RPO heavy offense. I was on the Jackson bandwagon all offseason.
Problem is - I'm not sure it would have worked as well for the Giants for a few reasons.
1. It would mean no Will Hernandez - so, remove one of the only guys on the OL who seems to be worth a shit right now.
2. In addition, we would have less assets because we'd have needed to trade up to get Jackson
3. We don't have the defense Baltimore does. You can't play the run-heavy, ball control offense they're playing if you're in catch up mode. You have to have a defense good enough to let you dictate play and TOP for that to work.
I think the needs are obvious here and it's going to take a really good draft and much better FA period than we just had.
Situationally and in the red zone the offense was shit. Anyone who paid attention to the games can see it. Points scored isnt an accurate reflection.
For example they were second to last in Red Zone Success in the 1st and 2nd quarter. Last in the division in the 3rd quarter and and 2nd in the 4th quarter. Being that they only won 5 games, one can infer that they scored a lot when the game was out of reach.
Did have a good amount of games where they took the lead late only for the d to give it back. One thing to remember is that the team always played hard for Shurmur no matter the score which helped them climb back into games. That shouldn't be dismissed
If we had taken Sam Darnold instead, you remove Saquon Barkley from the equation and almost are certainly looking at the same record (or worse) and an even less productive offense.
Would you still say the improvement didn't warrant the investment?
What series of offseason moves could have fixed the offense entirely in one offseason?
Some of the expectations for how this thing needed to progress seem very unrealistic. It's like just because Barkley and Hernandez didn't turn the Giants into a top 5 offense overnight, they weren't worth the investment.
Do you really think Hernandez was a wasted pick because the offense still needs to get better? I don't understand that at all.
No, the line of thinking that isn't logical is the one that believes that the Giants being the highest scoring team in the NFCE means something.
The Redskins lost their starting OL and QB mid season. The Eagles were without their starting QB for most of the year. The Cowboys came in with a flawed roster on O and had to trade the farm for Amari Cooper midway through because of it.
Yet the Giants, with a franchise QB, a ton of money spent on the OL, the 2nd pick overall, a guard drafted high, after having picked on offense high the past couple of years - is still mediocre even on a good day. They needed the weak back end of the schedule and for one of the teams in the division to implode to arrive at this point.
You can say the D is in shambles - but they moved their best pass rusher before the season, moved two defensive starters early on. There's a lot more talent and money invested on the offensive side of the ball, and the returns aren't much better.
What should they have done you're asking? Well - if not Darnold, they should have either moved on from Eli and taken 2018 as a loss, taking the cap hit and clearing the books for 19. If the plan was to move forward with Eli for a couple of seasons, and everyone was apparently convinced that the OL was the #1 reason for the team's inability to score, then they should have drafted Nelson and then another OL high in the 2nd round. The Colts did exactly that, and it fixed their OL.
The Giants strategy is unclear to me - if it wasn't to win this year, I'm not sure how they have a path to anything better next season. And if they come in at 5-11 - 7-9 next season, they're right back where they started - not bad enough for a team changing draft, not good enough to make the playoffs.
I'm almost certain the same people will be singing the same songs at the end of 2019 if the results are what I expect them to be - 'you can't fix all of this in two offseasons or with a bunch of cap money', as if all of a sudden the NFL became the NBA. But hey, we scored more points than the rest of the NFC East - hooray! Go post that on an NFL board without a team affiliation and see how quickly you're laughed out of there.
It isn't meaningless. It could be a sign the offense is getting better. Remember it wasn't long ago this team could not score twenty points no matter how far out of reach the game was. To say the giants scored the most in the division isn't necessarily cheerleading. It again could be a sign of improvement.
Was 28th in rushing and 22nd in passing success on 3rd down in their own territory.
The defense was worst in the league in rushing success and 5th best in the league in passing success on 3rd down when opponents were in Giants territory.
Was 28th in rushing and 22nd in passing success on 3rd down in their own territory.
The defense was worst in the league in rushing success and 5th best in the league in passing success on 3rd down when opponents were in Giants territory.
Yeah, they both ha've work to do as we all saw. To me the defense is way behind.
If we had taken Sam Darnold instead, you remove Saquon Barkley from the equation and almost are certainly looking at the same record (or worse) and an even less productive offense.
Would you still say the improvement didn't warrant the investment?
What series of offseason moves could have fixed the offense entirely in one offseason?
Some of the expectations for how this thing needed to progress seem very unrealistic. It's like just because Barkley and Hernandez didn't turn the Giants into a top 5 offense overnight, they weren't worth the investment.
Do you really think Hernandez was a wasted pick because the offense still needs to get better? I don't understand that at all.
No, the line of thinking that isn't logical is the one that believes that the Giants being the highest scoring team in the NFCE means something.
The Redskins lost their starting OL and QB mid season. The Eagles were without their starting QB for most of the year. The Cowboys came in with a flawed roster on O and had to trade the farm for Amari Cooper midway through because of it.
Yet the Giants, with a franchise QB, a ton of money spent on the OL, the 2nd pick overall, a guard drafted high, after having picked on offense high the past couple of years - is still mediocre even on a good day. They needed the weak back end of the schedule and for one of the teams in the division to implode to arrive at this point.
You can say the D is in shambles - but they moved their best pass rusher before the season, moved two defensive starters early on. There's a lot more talent and money invested on the offensive side of the ball, and the returns aren't much better.
What should they have done you're asking? Well - if not Darnold, they should have either moved on from Eli and taken 2018 as a loss, taking the cap hit and clearing the books for 19. If the plan was to move forward with Eli for a couple of seasons, and everyone was apparently convinced that the OL was the #1 reason for the team's inability to score, then they should have drafted Nelson and then another OL high in the 2nd round. The Colts did exactly that, and it fixed their OL.
The Giants strategy is unclear to me - if it wasn't to win this year, I'm not sure how they have a path to anything better next season. And if they come in at 5-11 - 7-9 next season, they're right back where they started - not bad enough for a team changing draft, not good enough to make the playoffs.
I'm almost certain the same people will be singing the same songs at the end of 2019 if the results are what I expect them to be - 'you can't fix all of this in two offseasons or with a bunch of cap money', as if all of a sudden the NFL became the NBA. But hey, we scored more points than the rest of the NFC East - hooray! Go post that on an NFL board without a team affiliation and see how quickly you're laughed out of there.
LOL, well if you're going to assign another posters line of thinking to me, we aren't going to get anywhere.
I didn't post this thread and I don't think the figure means anything. It's not relevant.
The point that is being missed is that virtually every avenue still leads us to where we are right now. Quenton Nelson has been fantastic for IND - he's exactly what they needed.
The Colts have improved so much because...
1. They got their elite, top tier QB back healthy.
2. They hit absolute home runs with both Nelson and Leonard
3. They now have a top 10 defense.
If the Giants had drafted Nelson instead of Barkley, they are still a 5 win team and then I can just use the same argument you are.... the investment didn't amount to more wins, so what was the point?
It doesn't work like that.
I'm not going to keep saying "this needed x amount of years" if we get into years 2, 3 and beyond and still aren't back in the playoffs... but to have expected it to happen in one offseason just was never realistic and I'm not sure why so many posters seem surprised that this was the season we had.
The team was loaded with holes and didn't have enough plugs available to turn a 3 win team into a playoff team in one offseason. It's really as simple as that. Anyone who thought this team was just going to turn around and win 9-10 games was fooling themselves.
Was 28th in rushing and 22nd in passing success on 3rd down in their own territory.
The defense was worst in the league in rushing success and 5th best in the league in passing success on 3rd down when opponents were in Giants territory.
Yeah, they both ha've work to do as we all saw. To me the defense is way behind.
Exactly. To chest pump that they led the division in points and blame the defense is disengenious.
The defense is further behind but also think its easier and quicker to repair a defense than an offense. Obviously we saw it in 2016 by throwing a ton of money at but a capable edge rusher in the draft and a true FS can get the defense to at least average imo.
The offense will be limited until RT, C, and QB are improved and a true X receiver is found.
You'll find on here. Another thread we had - he tried deliberately to change the narrative of who was better this year Matt Ryan or Eli to who had the better career or better in 1 big game.
He's doing the same bullshit now. WHo the hell cares about the title of his thread by trying to indirectly tie it into Eli? Anyone with half-a-brain can easily see all of Eli's QB ratings are in the lower half of theleague and the were lower than both Wentz and Dak.
Instead this deceptive poster is using "points scored" as a barometer? ANd some poster just like him are agreeing with him? Why use points scored ant QB rating when evaluating a QB? The OP and other Eli fanboys wont do it because it doesnt fit their argument so they choose to ignore it.
These are the ultimate fanboy Eli posters. Their hero can do no wrong. The point of also saying goodbye to Eli from many of us as well is his age, SO please explain why in hell "points scored" in the division matters whle many of us are fearful of getting stuck with no decent QBafter ELi is gone?
eli's Espn QB rating was 26th in the NFL. His PFF QB Rating was 21st. Please explain how that is good to look forward to in future years for a 37 year old QB?
I will temper any of my enthusiasm for the offense by agreement with those who pointed out the offense didnt seem to be able to move the ball when they needed to in certain situations. I blame the coach and the QB. The coach for stupid play calling and Eli for any stupid checks and INTs and fumbles. The Giants had a shitty losing season, the start was fucking putrid. But the Giants played a tough schedule with a new roster and coaching staff and GM. I think the Giants had a better shitty season this year than last. I think Shurmur needs to turn over play calling to his O-co and focus on becoming a better game day head coach.
The creativity we showed. Whether its the trick plays, Lauletta lining up at WR, etc.
Aj, yep, a play that stuck out to me was against Indy. Man king throws a lateral to Saquon like a designed swing pass though this is designed to be a backward pass, Saquon catches it, sets up to throw before taking off. Talk about keeping the d on their toes. Not to mention all of the different players that receive the ball behind the LOS. It makes it hard for the defense to key on one player
The creativity we showed. Whether its the trick plays, Lauletta lining up at WR, etc.
Aj, yep, a play that stuck out to me was against Indy. Man king throws a lateral to Saquon like a designed swing pass though this is designed to be a backward pass, Saquon catches it, sets up to throw before taking off. Talk about keeping the d on their toes. Not to mention all of the different players that receive the ball behind the LOS. It makes it hard for the defense to key on one player
Id like to see Odell lined up in the backfield next year with Saqoun. Maybe even some direct snaps to Odell where he either hands off to Saquon or play action. Could be dangerous.
There are 22 players out there. Yes we upgraded 2 on offense, and they made a very positive impact, but there are 9 other positions on offense. Hernandez and Barkley are great, but we still need another 2 or 3 on offense to tip us over. Not having Barkley or Hernandez would put us farther away. It's not just a single player
You'll find on here. Another thread we had - he tried deliberately to change the narrative of who was better this year Matt Ryan or Eli to who had the better career or better in 1 big game.
He's doing the same bullshit now. WHo the hell cares about the title of his thread by trying to indirectly tie it into Eli? Anyone with half-a-brain can easily see all of Eli's QB ratings are in the lower half of theleague and the were lower than both Wentz and Dak.
Instead this deceptive poster is using "points scored" as a barometer? ANd some poster just like him are agreeing with him? Why use points scored ant QB rating when evaluating a QB? The OP and other Eli fanboys wont do it because it doesnt fit their argument so they choose to ignore it.
These are the ultimate fanboy Eli posters. Their hero can do no wrong. The point of also saying goodbye to Eli from many of us as well is his age, SO please explain why in hell "points scored" in the division matters whle many of us are fearful of getting stuck with no decent QBafter ELi is gone?
eli's Espn QB rating was 26th in the NFL. His PFF QB Rating was 21st. Please explain how that is good to look forward to in future years for a 37 year old QB?
Points scored is more important than a meaningless metric rating. Giants improves scoring wise from last year. Hopefully with an upgrade at OL, some health, and less posters like you - our season will be more enjoyable.
to be fair, I honestly can't name a single BBIer on the other side'... which is absolutely not to say that there aren't... just that no single individual seems to have staked their name to this cause (pro or against) in quite the same way as dep has over the past few years.
But that is probably just me not paying as close attention...
to be fair, I honestly can't name a single BBIer on the other side'... which is absolutely not to say that there aren't... just that no single individual seems to have staked their name to this cause (pro or against) in quite the same way as dep has over the past few years.
But that is probably just me not paying as close attention...
I understand what you are saying. Its just that this site has become so consumed by the whole QB debate and the Barkley vs. Darnold that its becoming rather stale.
I'd love a RT for the draft but it's looking more and more like pass rusher is the highest need. Regardless, both sides of the line are of the highest need right now.
RE: RE: The OP is oneof themost misreprrentative posters
You'll find on here. Another thread we had - he tried deliberately to change the narrative of who was better this year Matt Ryan or Eli to who had the better career or better in 1 big game.
He's doing the same bullshit now. WHo the hell cares about the title of his thread by trying to indirectly tie it into Eli? Anyone with half-a-brain can easily see all of Eli's QB ratings are in the lower half of theleague and the were lower than both Wentz and Dak.
Instead this deceptive poster is using "points scored" as a barometer? ANd some poster just like him are agreeing with him? Why use points scored ant QB rating when evaluating a QB? The OP and other Eli fanboys wont do it because it doesnt fit their argument so they choose to ignore it.
These are the ultimate fanboy Eli posters. Their hero can do no wrong. The point of also saying goodbye to Eli from many of us as well is his age, SO please explain why in hell "points scored" in the division matters whle many of us are fearful of getting stuck with no decent QBafter ELi is gone?
eli's Espn QB rating was 26th in the NFL. His PFF QB Rating was 21st. Please explain how that is good to look forward to in future years for a 37 year old QB?
Points scored is more important than a meaningless metric rating. Giants improves scoring wise from last year. Hopefully with an upgrade at OL, some health, and less posters like you - our season will be more enjoyable.
Notwhen you are trying to build up EL you have to look at individual satts too. WHen you don;t look at individual stats and just the team stats and then try to indirectly show your love for Eli -- it turns you into a an idiot.
I find your pathetic homerism shameful. I think there should be fair discussions on here- instead posters like you that are so in love with a player that you definitely look to misrersesent things is shameful. Just grow up.
Looking to totally ignore individual stats is what a 2 year old kid would do in order to protect their hero if the stats don't support. You act that way like a 2 year old with every post regarding Eli. It's pathetic.
For exmaplelast year wiht you and the Giants offense stinking it was all about "the other players." Now this year it's all about "team." No offense- maybe their is-- IMO you're the type of fan I get most disgsusted with-- a hero-worshipping fan that hasn't adjusted to being an adult.
I mean, my plan was to draft Barkley and Lamar Jackson and run an RPO heavy offense. I was on the Jackson bandwagon all offseason.
Problem is - I'm not sure it would have worked as well for the Giants for a few reasons.
1. It would mean no Will Hernandez - so, remove one of the only guys on the OL who seems to be worth a shit right now.
2. In addition, we would have less assets because we'd have needed to trade up to get Jackson
3. We don't have the defense Baltimore does. You can't play the run-heavy, ball control offense they're playing if you're in catch up mode. You have to have a defense good enough to let you dictate play and TOP for that to work.
I think the needs are obvious here and it's going to take a really good draft and much better FA period than we just had.
Add in the sunk Eli cost for 2 years too. Its something I would have been excited to see but timing wise it just couldnt happen even if they wanted to go this route.
Giant fan be an Eli homer to some degree? I will proudly state I am. Sure, this could be the end, but there is a false narrative built up that Eli has been a dark cloud holding this team back since 2013.
I'd love a RT for the draft but it's looking more and more like pass rusher is the highest need. Regardless, both sides of the line are of the highest need right now.
If the Giants cut Eli and get a mobile QB we don't need a defense.
Points scored is a thoroughly misleading stat just like saying the giants scoring the most points in the division is a meaningless stat. The division was horrible this year. The cowboys traded a first round pick because their offense was broken. The eagles and Redskins had QB injuries and RB injuries. It was a division of broken offenses, and we were the best of bad offenses.
Points scored is a thoroughly misleading stat just like saying the giants scoring the most points in the division is a meaningless stat. The division was horrible this year. The cowboys traded a first round pick because their offense was broken. The eagles and Redskins had QB injuries and RB injuries. It was a division of broken offenses, and we were the best of bad offenses.
Two playoff teams
Whatever that's worth
RE: RE: Gotta love when some stats are situationally
Points scored is a thoroughly misleading stat just like saying the giants scoring the most points in the division is a meaningless stat. The division was horrible this year. The cowboys traded a first round pick because their offense was broken. The eagles and Redskins had QB injuries and RB injuries. It was a division of broken offenses, and we were the best of bad offenses.
Two playoff teams
Whatever that's worth
Division winners have to make it by default regardless of how bad their offense is.
Giant fan be an Eli homer to some degree? I will proudly state I am. Sure, this could be the end, but there is a false narrative built up that Eli has been a dark cloud holding this team back since 2013.
Ridiculous
TC was scapegoated too, how did that work out?
You think I meant every Eli fan is fanboy-homer? I'm an Eli fan. ButI think you missed my context. I brought up an example to him-- who do you think was better this year Matt Ryan or Eli? WHo is the better Qb going forward (not career)?
I's sokay to be an Eli fan and not have to kiss his feet, right?
to be fair, I honestly can't name a single BBIer on the other side'... which is absolutely not to say that there aren't... just that no single individual seems to have staked their name to this cause (pro or against) in quite the same way as dep has over the past few years.
But that is probably just me not paying as close attention...
Well LG, Im afraid Im forced to name 2. One doesnt live in this country and the other noted above that the offense got better when we started playing against backup quarterbacks. Maybe it was a typo and he meant backup cornerbacks. Coulda been...
The Eli haters say the homers are only looking at the stats that make Eli look good. The Eli homers are saying the haters are only looking at the stats that make Eli look bad. Eventually, it will turn into an argument of not looking at the stats at all but using the "eye test". Then it's on to the next forum thread that turns into an Eli thread regardless of the OPs intent. I for one think Eli is "currently" the best option they have to win and I think that somehow makes me a homer.
Bottom line is Eli could once carry the team as he did in 2011. Yes, Eli did carry that team into the playoffs and continued his great play into the playoffs. It doesn't look like he can do that anymore. Does he have to carry the team now? Looks like Barkley can do that with a good run game. Also, as they haven't made the playoffs, I'm not sure he can step up as he's done in the past during the post-season either. He is neither part of the solution or part of the problem. He is average right now. Still capable of making some amazing throws but it does appear that the game is getting faster on him (as opposed to wanting to hear rookies say how the game is slowing down for them). I don't see a decline in his arm. He's never been mobile. It's just the game seems to be moving faster on him now. He's still better than all the other current options out there though.
Until the Giants find that next level QB (the heir apparent if you will) the conversation is mute. I, for one, don't want to gamble draft picks on a maybe. 2020 looks like the best opportunity to take a shot at a QB. I'm not liking the 2019 draft class and didn't like the 2018 draft class either. Except for maybe Foles (big maybe), I'm not liking the FA class either (Foles can opt out of his contract so kind of like a FA). I think he's gonna grab a big contract next season so not worth it for the Giants. In 2020, draft the next QB. Sell the farm if you have to but that's when to draft a QB. Until then, the debate will never end. Hell, it will go on for years after they replace Eli.
The Eli haters say the homers are only looking at the stats that make Eli look good. The Eli homers are saying the haters are only looking at the stats that make Eli look bad. Eventually, it will turn into an argument of not looking at the stats at all but using the "eye test". Then it's on to the next forum thread that turns into an Eli thread regardless of the OPs intent. I for one think Eli is "currently" the best option they have to win and I think that somehow makes me a homer.
Bottom line is Eli could once carry the team as he did in 2011. Yes, Eli did carry that team into the playoffs and continued his great play into the playoffs. It doesn't look like he can do that anymore. Does he have to carry the team now? Looks like Barkley can do that with a good run game. Also, as they haven't made the playoffs, I'm not sure he can step up as he's done in the past during the post-season either. He is neither part of the solution or part of the problem. He is average right now. Still capable of making some amazing throws but it does appear that the game is getting faster on him (as opposed to wanting to hear rookies say how the game is slowing down for them). I don't see a decline in his arm. He's never been mobile. It's just the game seems to be moving faster on him now. He's still better than all the other current options out there though.
Until the Giants find that next level QB (the heir apparent if you will) the conversation is mute. I, for one, don't want to gamble draft picks on a maybe. 2020 looks like the best opportunity to take a shot at a QB. I'm not liking the 2019 draft class and didn't like the 2018 draft class either. Except for maybe Foles (big maybe), I'm not liking the FA class either (Foles can opt out of his contract so kind of like a FA). I think he's gonna grab a big contract next season so not worth it for the Giants. In 2020, draft the next QB. Sell the farm if you have to but that's when to draft a QB. Until then, the debate will never end. Hell, it will go on for years after they replace Eli.
USAF -- I'm a homer fan too. I love Eli hope / feel he deserves HOF.
BUT-- THIS GUY - THO EOP I'm speaking of- and anyone else who thinks eli right now is better than Matt Ryan now and in the futrue -- c'mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER.
Add that to -- ONLY LOOKING AT POINTS SCORED and COMPLETELY DISREGARDING INDIVIDUAL QB stats - then c;mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER. Looking to apoints scored vs QBR isn't just a 50-50 comparison. It's just so wrong to do look at points scored. Its not even close to being fair. Why have a QBRating?
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If your name suggests you served in the service USAF God Bless you and thank you for your service. Wihtthat said - I mean wiht total respect here - if you think what the OP is doing by being defiant about eli over Ryan and using "points scored" over QBR then I'm sorry you have gone off the reservation.
And as for trading up in 2020 we can respectfully agree to disagree. This team is devoid of talent at many positions. To have to trade talent away to get a Qb when we could possibly get a very good QB in 2019 such as Haskins (if Gmen feel he is good and if he comes out ofc) imo is an enormous blunder. We are depleting assets for a team that can't afford to do it. IMO that's an enormous blunder.
I heard once a GM say in baseball (I recognize its different than in football) thet he blundered by trying to build "the super team." To try for that super qb in 2020 by expending future assets which right now this team is devoid of rather than grab a solid QB in which you protect your future assets (draft picks) is the better play.
I realize you might not think Haskins is the guy but are you looking at him in terms of being super and because you dont think he is super he isn't worth it, or do you think he and the other QB's such as Jones just are average-at-best for the future?
Further- if you assess the Gmen next year and don't think they can be a contender next year -- what is ELi giving you? A few more wins to what end? Why not look to build as soons as possible with as much money as possible in order to enhance "the limited life" of a rb such as Barkley?
USAF -- I'm a homer fan too. I love Eli hope / feel he deserves HOF.
BUT-- THIS GUY - THO EOP I'm speaking of- and anyone else who thinks eli right now is better than Matt Ryan now and in the futrue -- c'mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER.
Add that to -- ONLY LOOKING AT POINTS SCORED and COMPLETELY DISREGARDING INDIVIDUAL QB stats - then c;mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER. Looking to apoints scored vs QBR isn't just a 50-50 comparison. It's just so wrong to do look at points scored. Its not even close to being fair. Why have a QBRating?
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If your name suggests you served in the service USAF God Bless you and thank you for your service. Wihtthat said - I mean wiht total respect here - if you think what the OP is doing by being defiant about eli over Ryan and using "points scored" over QBR then I'm sorry you have gone off the reservation.
And as for trading up in 2020 we can respectfully agree to disagree. This team is devoid of talent at many positions. To have to trade talent away to get a Qb when we could possibly get a very good QB in 2019 such as Haskins (if Gmen feel he is good and if he comes out ofc) imo is an enormous blunder. We are depleting assets for a team that can't afford to do it. IMO that's an enormous blunder.
I heard once a GM say in baseball (I recognize its different than in football) thet he blundered by trying to build "the super team." To try for that super qb in 2020 by expending future assets which right now this team is devoid of rather than grab a solid QB in which you protect your future assets (draft picks) is the better play.
I realize you might not think Haskins is the guy but are you looking at him in terms of being super and because you dont think he is super he isn't worth it, or do you think he and the other QB's such as Jones just are average-at-best for the future?
Further- if you assess the Gmen next year and don't think they can be a contender next year -- what is ELi giving you? A few more wins to what end? Why not look to build as soons as possible with as much money as possible in order to enhance "the limited life" of a rb such as Barkley?
It's completely ok that you disagree with me about Haskins. That's what we do in forums. I just don't think he has it. You can disagree with me about anything you like. What matters is what the Giants think. If they back Haskins or any other QB in 2019, I'll hope for the best. I just don't see it and I'm not alone. The majority of scouts and most of BBI here seem to think 2020 is a far better year for QBs.
As to disagreeing about selling out for the QB they want, they did that for Eli in the first place. Eagles did it for Wentz. I think there are a lot of holes to fill too which is why I don't want to waste picks. The Giants will enter QB hell and many think they are already there. There's multiple ways to handle it and still be in it. You can stay with a bad QB (I'm not saying Eli is bad) and not take chances in the draft or FA. Another way is to keep drafting busts at QB. I think it's better to improve the team around the QB while waiting for the closest sure thing they can draft. It's very rare to go from franchise QB to franchise QB. Favre to Rogers, Peyton to Luck, Montana to Young, etc. The odds of pulling that off are not in the Giants favor and the odds improve if you build a team that makes the QBs job easier. A better pass blocking OL and/or a better run blocking OL is a QBs best friend. Is Dak any good are does he benefit from a good to great OL? Does he benefit from a great run game? As a result, Dak is developing. Still don't think he will amount to much but he's got good pieces around him. If he started behind the Giants' OL, he'd probably be considered a bust by now. If another Andrew Luck comes along (who was considered a sure thing when drafted), yes you go all in. Sacrifice some picks for a game changer. I think they can/will patch a lot of holes in 2019 and will have more money for 2020's FAs since they now have a rookie QB. Again, just my opinion.
As to individual stats, for me it depends on the specific stat. You won't like it but I think QBR is the worst stat in all of sports. Too many variable are included already and it lacks many others that can't be calculated. I felt this way before Eli Manning and I'll feel that way after Eli Manning. For example, I felt Eli had 1 elite year (2011). People seem to forget he dragged that team (with a terrible defense and the worst rush offense in the league) to the playoffs. His rate in 2011 was 92.9. His rate in 2018 is 92.4. Just in case you think it's a different time now than then; The highest rate player in 2011 was Drew Brees at 110.6. The highest rated player now is Drew Brees at 115.7. Not a substantial increase. Looking at all of the other stats, Eli is average and in many cases, slightly above average.
As to the team stats, yes I think team stats are very telling. I don't think it's any surprise that once the OL improved, the run game improved. Then, in turn, the passing offense improved as well. Giants suddenly got more competitive after the bye (changes on the OL). If you notice, I also posted the stat that shows the defense allowed the most points of any other team in the NFC East as well. This is a very poor defense we are talking about. They are the 24th ranked defense. I am 100% sure that a better defense would have the Giants in the playoffs right now. The defense blew way too many leads this year and for me, the pass rush just has to improve to be more competitive.
I honestly believe that a great ER, an average RT, an average C, and the 2nd year in this new offense and defense make this a team with a winning record. Hold on to those players and get your QB the following year. I think the team is 2-3 years out of being legit contenders if Gettleman can play the FA and the draft right. If you play QB roulette, it will take longer and you will lose the good to great players in the process.
You're right that its okay to disagree that why we've been cordial. we're doing it.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
say what you want about Apple and Snacks, they can play football and would have helped considerably in the stretch, would it have mattered? No clue, but we were a weaker team for giving them up.
You're right that its okay to disagree that why we've been cordial. we're doing it.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
To your comment about the super running back...I would argue that the ability to run has been the missing element for a while. I think if you look back two years, the Giants scored like 6 rushing TDs. The last two seasons, our rushing game couldnt function against cover 2 and dime defenses. The run game was sparked first by Barkley, then the run and pass games took another step forward by shoring up the right guard position. That created a run game that rightfully elevated both the run and the pass by opening play action and forcing defenses to respect the run.
Its not surprising that going from zero run threat to a formidable one nade the difference. It would for any offense.
You're right that its okay to disagree that why we've been cordial. we're doing it.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
To your comment about the super running back...I would argue that the ability to run has been the missing element for a while. I think if you look back two years, the Giants scored like 6 rushing TDs. The last two seasons, our rushing game couldnt function against cover 2 and dime defenses. The run game was sparked first by Barkley, then the run and pass games took another step forward by shoring up the right guard position. That created a run game that rightfully elevated both the run and the pass by opening play action and forcing defenses to respect the run.
Its not surprising that going from zero run threat to a formidable one nade the difference. It would for any offense.
so the way the OP made it sound that is was a lot ot do with ELi - how much you htink?Equal? I don't.
ANd some of those holes Barkley busted how many rb;s would?
Wouldn't there have been a lot more qb;s that could have duplicated or exceeded what ELi did more tha likely?
If so what would be the best way to quantify it? Through the QB ratings even though they aren't that great?
Though its better than "points scored" correct? ISn't "points scored" laughable?
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. Its been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
Especially the need for a young qb. Its definitely an issue and needs to be addressed but for the sake of winning? The giants have other immediate needs and upgrading from Eli wont be as easy as some insist on believing. Add it all up and it makes sense to draft bpa in a draft deep with the giants needs.
It took a while
djm : 11:10 pm : link : reply
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. Its been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
After every loss, there are literally several posters who blame Eli regardless of the way the game unfolded. He either scored too early that allowed another team to come back or he didn't see a open WR and settled for a FG prior to the D letting up a losing drive.
And they say ridiculous things like "He's the only constant" or "he's the reason the team hasn't scored 30+ points in over a year".
Then, he goes out and helps the team break 30 points several times this year in a different offense and so other complaints come out like he's gunshy and immobile.
Meanwhile, the D just let up their 5th game-losing drive of the year after the offense took the lead.
Sounds logical to keep blaming Eli after every loss....
We improved by 8 points per game on offense from last year
We gave up over a point per gsme this year than last year.
We gave up 6 game losing or game tying drives this year alone. Losing 4 of them.
We were 26th in the NFL in 3rd down conversion on defense
We were last in the NFL in 4th down conversions (14 out of 17!!!!!)
We were tied for next to last in sacks
I am not sure what context this falls into... but to me... its really really fucking bad. And this isnt to say our offense was great or we cant imrpove. Our defense is fucking deplorable. And it was from game 2 of the year.
Especially the need for a young qb. Its definitely an issue and needs to be addressed but for the sake of winning? The giants have other immediate needs and upgrading from Eli wont be as easy as some insist on believing. Add it all up and it makes sense to draft bpa in a draft deep with the giants needs.
The sake of winning what? ANd the fact it won;t be so easy means you have to start as soon as you when you stink- meaning the moRe you are to .500 you can't get that very good-to-terrific QB unless you blunder and dramatically trade p in which the Gmen dont have the add'l personnel to make that successful. You're happy happy going 8-8 next year year then each year watch your starting QB decline as he;s doing right now before your eyes?
You are taking a short term gain with little concern for the long haul.
I think many of you are very naive on trading up and/or think it will be so simple to get the 2020 QB's.
**Further after you get the young QB it's going to take him 1 year to adjust. Juts because he puts on a Giants uniform won't make him superman. How is delaying a year for Barkley who has limited years because of a RB helpful?
It took a while
djm : 11:10 pm : link : reply
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. Its been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
After every loss, there are literally several posters who blame Eli regardless of the way the game unfolded. He either scored too early that allowed another team to come back or he didn't see a open WR and settled for a FG prior to the D letting up a losing drive.
And they say ridiculous things like "He's the only constant" or "he's the reason the team hasn't scored 30+ points in over a year".
Then, he goes out and helps the team break 30 points several times this year in a different offense and so other complaints come out like he's gunshy and immobile.
Meanwhile, the D just let up their 5th game-losing drive of the year after the offense took the lead.
Sounds logical to keep blaming Eli after every loss....
after every loss there are posters for example the dude that started this thread that won't blame Eli for a thing. SO many apologists for eli. His QB rating is terrible and you have people agreeing with his silly
"points scored" argument. It;s laughable the fanboy-homerism for ELi.
Try explaining to any statistician that "points scored" is any way to accurately measure a QB and you'll gt them to cry laughing at the absurdity. This is the same guy who thinks ELi right now is better than matt Ryan.
We improved by 8 points per game on offense from last year
We gave up over a point per gsme this year than last year.
We gave up 6 game losing or game tying drives this year alone. Losing 4 of them.
We were 26th in the NFL in 3rd down conversion on defense
We were last in the NFL in 4th down conversions (14 out of 17!!!!!)
We were tied for next to last in sacks
I am not sure what context this falls into... but to me... its really really fucking bad. And this isnt to say our offense was great or we cant imrpove. Our defense is fucking deplorable. And it was from game 2 of the year.
The same bullshit Reese said after 2014 thinking the Oline was fixed. The same nonsense that you ignore thta we beat backup QB's which skwerd the numbers. The same bullshit that you cant grasp that guys like ELi get old and their play eventually suffers. The same bullshit you choose ot ignore when the QB rating stats show you he is subpar but yet you try to sneak the conversation into comparing last year. The same bullshit that you can;t comprehend that it isn;t easy to replace a QB so you choose ot ignore all the signs. Yeah thats smart. Is that you Jerry reese?
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. Its been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
They won 11 games dragging the offense by the hair. That defense had to play until it was pissing blood and punch drunk. Let's absolutely not frame this as if defense has been the missing link with the franchise, because that's goddamn dishonest.
the last two weeks. Football Outsiders covered this.
New York Giants 27 at Indianapolis Colts 28
The Giants struggled to run the ball and were without Odell Beckham, but Eli Manning came to life in one of his best games of the season. Not many would have expected that with the Colts still having the postseason to play for, but the Giants had leads of 14-0, 24-14, and 27-21 on the day. There was a chance to put together a great drive to run out the clock, but backed up in their own end, the Giants stuck with Saquon Barkley on the ground and were fortunate to get a forward progress call to negate a potential fumble.
That three-and-out led to Andrew Luck only needing 53 yards to drive for the go-ahead touchdown in the final 3:43. Things never got too difficult for the Colts on the drive, but the Giants hurt themselves with two penalties on plays where they didn't even need to make contact with the receivers. After getting a first-and-goal at the 1, Luck threw a touchdown pass to Chester Rogers on a natural pick play with 55 seconds left. Adam Vinatieri hit the go-ahead extra point for the Colts' first and only lead of the day.
You give Andrew Luck a short field because you can't run the clock out with the same offense that ripped up and down the field all day, then trash the defense, full of replacement players, for not pulling a rabbit out of a hat against a top-level quarterback.
Dallas Cowboys 36 at New York Giants 35
Normally, 1:12 would be a little too early to go for a two-or-die, but these were special circumstances. Prescott made the pass work to Michael Gallup, and the Cowboys led 36-35. However, a taunting penalty threatened to end Dallas' celebration quickly. That led to a short kickoff that the Giants returned to their own 48, leaving Eli Manning in great position to lead a game-winning field goal drive. But like last week in Indianapolis when the Giants trailed by a single point, Manning was unable to move the offense. He threw four incompletions in a row, with Cody Latimer unable to come down with the ball on fourth-and-10. The Giants finished 2-7 at game-winning drive opportunities this season. Prescott has as many game-winning drives (14) in his three-year career as Manning has led in the last six seasons combined.
We can go back and forth over who you want to blame for the 'close games losses', but right here are two incidents of the offense failing to take a W that was on the table. Even with a bad defense. They didn't even need touchdowns here. They just had to get to reasonable field position.
eli ranking was 7th in 11 and 21st this year. qbr is very different today irrespective of the high score being similar.
His qbr espn rating was top 5 in 11, terrible today.
this is consistent with the eyeball test as well.
we use aggregate stats yet dog these ratings when they often describe roughly (not absolutely) with some accuracy......
I stand by what I posted. QBR is the worst stat in all of sports. Always has been, always will be. I don't care which version of QBR (ESPNs QBR or the old school passer rating) is used. The very version you are referring to started in 2011, true enough. However it was modified in 2012 and then again in 2013. The simple fact that they have multiple versions of it and/or different modifications to it should tell you something.
It's a BS stat. Always has been and always will be.
As to the eyeball test, that's subjective to the owner of the eyeball. I've already stated that the only decline in Eli's play I see is that the game is getting faster on him. That does happen to be a significant issue. I don't see less zip on the ball. I don't see less mobility because he never had any in the first place. I don't see him making or missing the tough throws any more or less than he did before. I do see the game getting faster on him (or he's not thinking fast enough). It could be from several years behind a shit OL. It could be a decline from age. It could be learning his 3rd new system. Maybe it's a combination of all three. That's what my eyeball sees.
RE: Let's really go back and look at the situational offense in context
the last two weeks. Football Outsiders covered this.
New York Giants 27 at Indianapolis Colts 28
The Giants struggled to run the ball and were without Odell Beckham, but Eli Manning came to life in one of his best games of the season. Not many would have expected that with the Colts still having the postseason to play for, but the Giants had leads of 14-0, 24-14, and 27-21 on the day. There was a chance to put together a great drive to run out the clock, but backed up in their own end, the Giants stuck with Saquon Barkley on the ground and were fortunate to get a forward progress call to negate a potential fumble.
That three-and-out led to Andrew Luck only needing 53 yards to drive for the go-ahead touchdown in the final 3:43. Things never got too difficult for the Colts on the drive, but the Giants hurt themselves with two penalties on plays where they didn't even need to make contact with the receivers. After getting a first-and-goal at the 1, Luck threw a touchdown pass to Chester Rogers on a natural pick play with 55 seconds left. Adam Vinatieri hit the go-ahead extra point for the Colts' first and only lead of the day.
You give Andrew Luck a short field because you can't run the clock out with the same offense that ripped up and down the field all day, then trash the defense, full of replacement players, for not pulling a rabbit out of a hat against a top-level quarterback.
Dallas Cowboys 36 at New York Giants 35
Normally, 1:12 would be a little too early to go for a two-or-die, but these were special circumstances. Prescott made the pass work to Michael Gallup, and the Cowboys led 36-35. However, a taunting penalty threatened to end Dallas' celebration quickly. That led to a short kickoff that the Giants returned to their own 48, leaving Eli Manning in great position to lead a game-winning field goal drive. But like last week in Indianapolis when the Giants trailed by a single point, Manning was unable to move the offense. He threw four incompletions in a row, with Cody Latimer unable to come down with the ball on fourth-and-10. The Giants finished 2-7 at game-winning drive opportunities this season. Prescott has as many game-winning drives (14) in his three-year career as Manning has led in the last six seasons combined.
We can go back and forth over who you want to blame for the 'close games losses', but right here are two incidents of the offense failing to take a W that was on the table. Even with a bad defense. They didn't even need touchdowns here. They just had to get to reasonable field position.
How dare you blame Eli - for anything. Every one of his passes should have been caught. The Wr's must've ran the wrong routes no doubt.
You're right that its okay to disagree that why we've been cordial. we're doing it.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
I never said points scored is more accurate than QBRating but since I think QBRating is a BS stat, sure I think "points scored" in context to the rest of the division is more telling. However, that's not the stat that I posted. The stat that I posted showed that the Giants defense allowed the most points in the division. I've seen this same argument when comparing Eli Manning to Big Ben and Rivers. I'm sorry but the fact that both Rivers and Big Ben have had, on average (and it's not even close), better defenses and run games than Eli Manning over the course of their careers is very very important to factor in. Also, sorry, but I won't be forced into a cherry-picked generalization with Bortles as a comparison.
I'm not directly suggesting bringing back Eli because he's some great QB. I'm suggesting that's the best option they have. If the Giants think a better option is there for 2019 and they go for it, I'll support my team and hope for the best. What I said was I don't want to play QB roulette with our top draft picks on maybe QBs. I'll hang with Eli for another year. I probably said it in a different thread but I think the team can make the playoffs next year with a great pass rusher, an above average RT and average OC.
As to my examples, I picked two random examples off the top of my head. There are others. My point is the Giants don't already have Rogers sitting on their bench like the Packers did waiting on Favre to retire. 49ers already had Young. The Colts "sucked for Luck". I don't know you but were you around to watch through the wait between Simms and Eli. It was a whole bunch of missed draft picks and half measures. You bet against the house and the house wins most of the time. That's just the way it is. I'll at least wait for a decent hand before I put any significant amount of chips in. When I'm real confident in my hand, I go all in. None of the QBs last year were worth a 2nd (i.e. Barkley was/is). None of the QBs in 2019 are worth a 6th IMHO but I will have faith in Gettleman if he chooses otherwise.
As for the GM never trading down, it's getting annoying reading this. He's had what, 5 different drafts to work with so far. It hasn't occurred to anyone that he just hasn't come across a good opportunity to do so yet. I read the same thing here about Reese not drafting a RB in the 1st round. Then Reese drafted Wilson. I would hope Gettleman learned some things since his last GM stint and he's only drafted for the Giants once so far (of which btw I feel he did an excellent job). In case you haven't noticed, he's already compiled himself quite of few extra draft picks for 2019 which gives him a lot of options (even lower rounds). Might be able to roll some of the picks over to 2020. Maybe even pick up some more for 2020. Point is, he is creating more options for himself. I don't think he plans on staying pat with his extra 4th, 5th, and 7th round picks.
way the Eli argument stopped making sense on both sides. If you say anything anti Eli you get attacked and if you say something pro Eli you also get attacked. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
For most people I think the sensible thing to realize is the Giants are looking for a QB. Maybe not to start next year but Eli isnt gonna be around in a few years.
Eli hasnt been the main problem with the team, if you think that you are going too far, but I think he is part of the problem. We need to really change things up because 8 wins in 2 years is pathetic. Going back further it doesnt really look that much better. The Giants need to get more from the QB position, as do a lot of teams.
Its safe to say that unless Eli retires he will most likely be the starter for 2019. If you root for him to play poorly or look past things that are his fault all you are doing is driving yourself crazy. Hes had a good career with the Giants and I have been happy to cheer for him, but things like he deserves respect, and all the sentimentality that goes around doesnt make our team better.
way the Eli argument stopped making sense on both sides. If you say anything anti Eli you get attacked and if you say something pro Eli you also get attacked. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
For most people I think the sensible thing to realize is the Giants are looking for a QB. Maybe not to start next year but Eli isnt gonna be around in a few years.
Eli hasnt been the main problem with the team, if you think that you are going too far, but I think he is part of the problem. We need to really change things up because 8 wins in 2 years is pathetic. Going back further it doesnt really look that much better. The Giants need to get more from the QB position, as do a lot of teams.
Its safe to say that unless Eli retires he will most likely be the starter for 2019. If you root for him to play poorly or look past things that are his fault all you are doing is driving yourself crazy. Hes had a good career with the Giants and I have been happy to cheer for him, but things like he deserves respect, and all the sentimentality that goes around doesnt make our team better.
Its too late to write my response to USAF (I'll write him something over relief then more much later)and to you but as far as your point you are misconstruing mine. I never said eli was the number 1 reason. It's the thread thatI conmplained about and the absurdity of using "points scored" and now it's gone to between USAF and I - he seems to think list has some validity. I'll respond to that - I dont want to post direct to yo what I'm going to sya to him.
But don't misreprseent my points. My points were that theOP is an eli-fanboy that uses every excuse to excuse Eli. Do you really think "points scored" has validity in giving Eli all thecredit as the op seems to suggest? If you are fair -- wouldn't ti stand ot reason that each situation is different and sometimes it can be a super RB or super wr or a super OLine. The op always makes his points about Eli.
Plus what type of morn thinks this year and in the future eli is better than Matt ryan for a season?
So all of this means I'm a poster who blames him for everything/ I don't. I just believe if Haskins is high up and is close to the other guys you got to take him. My view he looks good so does Bleacher report, walter Camp, Sb Nation, NBC sports, Sporting News, Mel Kiper, Fotballmaven, Thunderdogpsorts. - ANd Pro football weekly had an article in October saying hsi stock was rising as the 1st qb to be taken only after 6 games but the writer expressed caution that he had to see more. SO he didnt assign a number but so far he's been off thecharts.
SO I ihave to listen ot bullshit form the OP about the absurdity of points scored and I have yet to see much bad press that Haskins wont be a top ten pick instead I her stuff that supposedly "anyways" think he should stay which is basically said by those that imo desperately want to keep Eli. Otherwise show the articles - I can provide all the links I just told you.
does this mean I'm blamming Eli for everything? I'm just disagreeing with those that seem to want to give eli what I feel an enormous pass along with I feel a QB should be taken 1st as a priority if the QB is near the rating of the 6th pick.
I see you made a comment about "being annoyed" with my comment of DG doesn't trade down. It's our 1st "annoyance" of one another's posts. I mean this with respect; I don't care that you are annoyed.IMO if you want to close your eyes on the past and says it's he hasn't had the oportunity and ignore data just as you ignore the QBR data thats your business. Bu I suppose many of us are going to keep "annoying you" until he shows the creativity to do it.
But as i posted on another thread a while back in which I hammered DG - I brought up that I dont think the guy has shown the creativity to be other than blunt instrument. His projection of the team to be a winning team this year was absurd just as he was joking / putting down analytics.
Until he shows me I don't assume - because I don think he's very bright. So if I dont think hes veyr bright -- you being annoyed any tome I or someone else mentions he hasnt traded down means nothing. You can mention "tommorrow" or "another day" you are annoyed by this if I say it-- but i don't care. Only a blunt instrument would probably lok at 2016 at 11-5 then the next year then assume the team will be wining again. Any goofball can claim that after 2016 and think his hogmollie laugh at analytics style way will turn it around instead of doing adequate due diligence. IMO its more creative to walk others through why it wasn't going to happen.
Further, in part I disagree with nearly everything you said. We are G-men fans but with your "eyeball test" and "points scored pov" i htink is nothing more that "witch doctor analysis" - thus imo you look at nearly everything wrong. It doesn;t matter. w dont make the decisions anyways but I'll also add the QB rating is in part quantifying your eyeball test of Eli which is why I think you're wrong about QBR there too. No projection stat evaluating who is best is perfect. But its a lot better that points scored. As staed you or anyoen else cant account for the super rb or super wr or ol - you can;t quantify it. Then the OP just goes off and pretends it's about Eli and it seems like you are agreeing with him -- but you havent come out either way. It;s juts so wrong to think it's all Eli as the OP seems intent on doing. If he didnt let him come out and say it. That he doesnt know how much was Eli. Nor do you. Nor od i. I dont think it;s as much as the OP though.
As we get older we also down in many areas as Eli has.
I wonder if our "friend" the OP can even accept that.
I was not aiming my post at you whatsoever. I was more saying that what makes people like or dislike Eli is the inability for anyone to say anything positive or negative without it becoming a Eli argument. I dont mean you do this, its just what BBI has evolved into on the subject.
after every loss there are posters for example the dude that started this thread that won't blame Eli for a thing. SO many apologists for eli. His QB rating is terrible and you have people agreeing with his silly
"points scored" argument. It;s laughable the fanboy-homerism for ELi.
Try explaining to any statistician that "points scored" is any way to accurately measure a QB and you'll gt them to cry laughing at the absurdity. This is the same guy who thinks ELi right now is better than matt Ryan.
Can you really point to any posters who don't think Eli is part of the problem?
We are a bad football team and have been for some time. Everyone deserves to shoulder a portion of the blame.
I think part of the reason you see support for Eli isn't just because he's the starting QB for the team we root for, but because of the over-the-top commentary after almost any loss. When you have a particular poster who uses terms like the Cult of Eli or eli fanboys in nearly every one of his posts, it is easy to see why you would have people respond to refute that fucking drivel.
I don't think I can name a single poster who thinks Eli is above blame or that he hasn't contributed to the poor seasons. I can find several posters who truly believe that eli is the root of the problem
That posters blame Eli and the offense for losses where we scored 27 points on the road and 35, yes 35!!!! , at home against one of the best defenses in the NFL cause of a failed drive at the end.
People say I cherry pick stats? GTFO. When people start using QBR as a mean to judge the offense over points fucking scored... you know an agenda is being pushed.
That posters blame Eli and the offense for losses where we scored 27 points on the road and 35, yes 35!!!! , at home against one of the best defenses in the NFL cause of a failed drive at the end.
People say I cherry pick stats? GTFO. When people start using QBR as a mean to judge the offense over points fucking scored... you know an agenda is being pushed.
But only if we had Matt Ryan.... LMFAO.
While you do certainly have a point on the defensive side,(but you and every fan knew what would happen there), failing to move the team 1 yard while at midfield with 72 seconds and 2 TOs is pretty lame. It was a drive teed up for success and I absolutely thought he would get it done. They only needed 15-20 yards.
However it was actually a good thing. Probably gained 4 spots in the draft.
We we were going to get the yardage needed. But guess what? Their team played defense and got stops. We didnt have guys flying wide open all over the place.
35 points... thirty-five!!!! People just assume that since you need only x amount of yards that its so easy to get. Remember Be against Denver? Brady against Pitt? Baker last week against Baltimore? Ben against the Saints?
Offenses arent guaranteed to score just because you have good field position or just need a FG.
The fact that some posters here dont wanna admit is that we have much bigger holes to fill than QB. And they refuse to see it. We all know Eli isnt the best QB anymore but with an average defense.... we could have made the playoffs this year.
Mattyblue, we are actually very very close on this. I agree with nearly everything you last said. EVERYTHING on this board is about Eli Manning right now. EVERYTHING. Every Op seems to be taking a shot one way or the other and every reply seems to retort or agree. It's funny really. My original post was talking about how funny that is to me. There are very few people in the middle somewhere about it. Everyone seems to be taking an extreme pro or con view about it. The part I disagree with only slightly is that Eli is part of the problem but I think this may just be semantics. There wasn't a single game this year that I said to myself "Eli lost us that game". Nor was there any game that I said "We only won that game because of Eli". He is average now. The Giants need to always be looking for better at every position but until they are confident better is there to take, get better somewhere else that is there for the taking.
Giantstock, I'm not annoyed with you specifically as several people say the same thing. I also get annoyed when people say that Eli didn't earn his SB MVPs because the defense won those. it's simply wrong. As to you claiming you are not assuming Gettleman is willing to trade back because he hasn't done it before is, in fact, an assumption. You are assuming he won't trade back because he's never done it before but he hasn't even had that many opportunities to do so. I still believe Gettleman is capable of making any available decision during the draft and is open to all options. I'm not making the assumption, you are. If there was some kind of legitimate evidence to support that Gettleman doesn't consider trade downs, you might have something. Simply not doing it yet does not a case make. It's like saying if you rolled a couple dice 5 times and never got snake eyes, you never will. This is a logical fallacy. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Additionally, you continue to be stuck on this point scored thing. Like I believe this be some all great measurement. All I'm saying is it does matter. It does say something. You make it sound like I think it's the most important stat in the world. I'll remind you for the last time that I followed up with the defense allowing more points stat as I thought that was more telling. You seem to be having trouble getting past that point. You're the one fixated on it. I'm not. If you think that a team's OL doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think that a team's defense doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the run game doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the game plan doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think penalties doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think etc. etc. etc. Now, how much of that information really goes into the QBR?
As to Dep, yea, he's Eli's biggest defender on here and I don't fault him for that. There are just as many on the opposite side that constantly bash Eli that you seem to discount. It's gotten ridiculous on both sides of that coin. I'm thankful to Dep on occasions when someone post something ridiculous about Eli (i.e. Eli didn't win the SBs, the defense did) because I get ready to post and then say to myself, nah, Dep will get this. I'm saying it's funny because people miss the fact that the team did improve this year. The arrow is pointed up. Shurmer and Gettleman are making moves and seeing what they have for the future. Trying different things. They just don't see a better QB available yet. All these posters demanding a change at QB that either don't back it up with another legit option, want to gamble away a top pick on a maybe, or recommend worse alternatives. So many people on here are so blinded by the Eli Manning debate that they can't see the forest through the trees. The team will figure this out. They've done so 4 times now which is better than the large majority of the league.
qbr is not some perfect stat, but when I see the guys who are stars typically at the top of qbr there is a strong correlation to it and actual performance. where it goes wrong is when you state player x is better than player y because his qbr was two points higher in a given year.
but when a player is ranking mediocre consistenly over the span of a few years, that stat is not typically lying. now there are macro issues affecting the offense so some blame goes to the o line.
i certainly prefer qbr and wins to other aggregate stats used here so often, of course we may not agree.
i do also agree way too much is made out of Eli here regarding his contribution to the losing.
However, regarding the issue of his age and the enormous challenge of finding his replacement this is priority 1a for the giants. This team has stars on the offense and is designed to be great on o. they wont be able to invest in d they was they are on o and the goal will be to upgrade to the point of being respectable. This can reasonably be done with a draft some natural improvement of young players and some free agent signings.
The qb is a much tougher find and i agree with Giantstock here-the Giants have to look at haskins, the pick at 6 is known and will the team be in a position to pick one of the 2020 crop?
Worth a pick at 6? You swing and miss there... you think the last few year have been hell... just wait.
Guy hasnt even played 15 games in a system friendly towards QBs for a team that talent level trumped every single team he played.
Hold off on the swing and miss. How do you know? I'm not a Haskins fan, but I have a friend that played for Michigan and was All Big 10 OG and had a season with the Saints. He said Haskins is the real deal. He also told me Flowers was terrible and would bust when the Giants drafted him.
Now I don't know shit from shinola about rating QBs in college, but saying a kid is a swing and miss after 15 games is as bad as saying he is the real deal. I see no way he could start next year (even if he did declare) as he is likely too green.
dep I do not think QBs need to meet the customary requirements anymore to play in the NFL. They need to be smart, be able to make reads and need to be accurate. But I don't think they need the Manning/Brady criteria anymore - the straight drop back with huge arm. Is that preferred - probably, Sy said it still is. But the Wilson/Mahomes/Mayfield types are the QBs of the future as I see it. Guys that can move easily and make plays. Not the Jackson types that will eventually get hurt and are at best 50% passers.
Anywho, good discussion for a rainy day.
On a guy being the real deal when he wasnt in the radar of being a draftable product at the start of the year. The one thing Meyer has always produced is great stat college QBs.
On a guy being the real deal when he wasnt in the radar of being a draftable product at the start of the year. The one thing Meyer has always produced is great stat college QBs.
The Meyer point is a good one. Be interested in what SY says.
Hey, I'm skeptical on all QBs - including all from last year.
Maybe him getting out before Urban messed him up is important (but now that Meyer is gone, maybe he stays).
See how he does tonight. Hope I don't crash before that game.
Play on teams whose talent are way better than most of their opponents. Baker, Darnold, Watson, etc.
If thats going to scare you off then we definitely cant take Tua, Fromm or Lawrence. Michigan has one of the best defenses in the country and he absolutely torched them.
We heard that the Giants had to do whatever was possible to get Herbert. We had to lose every game. We had to do this. He was the sure fire number 1, etc...
Now only is he not coming out, but he wouldnt be even on our radar. He actually regressed. Now that hes off the board - its like we have a new flavor of the month.
At 6, you have to nail the pick. As of right now, the top 6 picks from last year look like home runs and have been projected to be that from the get go.
RE: Also most college QBs that end up 1st round picks
Play on teams whose talent are way better than most of their opponents. Baker, Darnold, Watson, etc.
If thats going to scare you off then we definitely cant take Tua, Fromm or Lawrence. Michigan has one of the best defenses in the country and he absolutely torched them.
And all those QBs were successful for more than 1 year. And didnt play for urban either.
I wouldnt use Michigan as the game to prop Haskins up. Michigan always chokes against teams they arent worlds better than.
They need ER, OT/OL, FS and CB help right away. Even a pass rush LB type if exceptional. I still feel that is what they do. The defense is just garbage and a couple tweaks on the oline would go a long way. OC needs to be a focus too in order to stymie the push up the middle.
Of course until we see what they focus on in FA, there is no way to know the direction DG takes in the draft beofre FA.
They need ER, OT/OL, FS and CB help right away. Even a pass rush LB type if exceptional. I still feel that is what they do. The defense is just garbage and a couple tweaks on the oline would go a long way. OC needs to be a focus too in order to stymie the push up the middle.
Of course until we see what they focus on in FA, there is no way to know the direction DG takes in the draft beofre FA.
I agree. But people here are at the point of...
If we dont draft a QB - its a failure!!! Its maddening.
they clearly should consider it. its a draft and there is relative positional ranking and there are great defensive players that can help the Giants out as well-if they dont take qb this year they obviously have to in 2020. so at some point yes this must be addressed.
it may not be haskins. perhaps they like jones and someone likes haskins and they can trade down. a lot of potential outcomes.
Given the high bust rate at qb, id draft another developmental prospect later at very least.
they clearly should consider it. its a draft and there is relative positional ranking and there are great defensive players that can help the Giants out as well-if they dont take qb this year they obviously have to in 2020. so at some point yes this must be addressed.
it may not be haskins. perhaps they like jones and someone likes haskins and they can trade down. a lot of potential outcomes.
Given the high bust rate at qb, id draft another developmental prospect later at very least.
I think its safe to assume if we draft say Jonah Williams, Josh Allen, or Deandre Baker... we are going to have a lot of upset people here. Not everyone who wants a QB change, but a good majority. Just my opinion...
Now I don't know shit from shinola about rating QBs in college, but saying a kid is a swing and miss after 15 games is as bad as saying he is the real deal.
"don't know shit from shinola"
i love it and use it as well with my kids...
RE: RE: Also most college QBs that end up 1st round picks
Play on teams whose talent are way better than most of their opponents. Baker, Darnold, Watson, etc.
If thats going to scare you off then we definitely cant take Tua, Fromm or Lawrence. Michigan has one of the best defenses in the country and he absolutely torched them.
And all those QBs were successful for more than 1 year. And didnt play for urban either.
I wouldnt use Michigan as the game to prop Haskins up. Michigan always chokes against teams they arent worlds better than.
You really playing in Urbans offense and playing in Clemsons offense isnt all that different right? Goal post moving
but not one to prevent the front office doing EVERYTHING they can find a quality replacement for Eli this season.
It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.
Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...
Im pretty sure you never heard of him before week 5 of the college season.... haha
His high school was a client of mine, so Ive actually known about him since he was a Freshman in high school. I provided Maryland with data on him during the recruitment, but ok...
The only thing to laugh at is the fact you can dismiss him because Ohio States talent is so much better or because Michigan always chokes but dont do the same for Tua who as three wide receivers who would be 1 or 1a at nearly every school in the country, NFL prospects all over the line and a stable of runningbacks so good the best high school rb in the country two years ago doesnt play.
but not one to prevent the front office doing EVERYTHING they can find a quality replacement for Eli this season.
It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.
Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...
See if we have the season we had this year... there are going to be options galore for QB.
Tua
Fromm
Herbert - he was the supposed best this year
Eason
We can start with those 4 and I am sure there will be a handful of others as well. I can argue those 4 are better prospects than Haskins or Jones or lock.
after every loss there are posters for example the dude that started this thread that won't blame Eli for a thing. SO many apologists for eli. His QB rating is terrible and you have people agreeing with his silly
"points scored" argument. It;s laughable the fanboy-homerism for ELi.
Try explaining to any statistician that "points scored" is any way to accurately measure a QB and you'll gt them to cry laughing at the absurdity. This is the same guy who thinks ELi right now is better than matt Ryan.
Can you really point to any posters who don't think Eli is part of the problem?
We are a bad football team and have been for some time. Everyone deserves to shoulder a portion of the blame.
I think part of the reason you see support for Eli isn't just because he's the starting QB for the team we root for, but because of the over-the-top commentary after almost any loss. When you have a particular poster who uses terms like the Cult of Eli or eli fanboys in nearly every one of his posts, it is easy to see why you would have people respond to refute that fucking drivel.
I don't think I can name a single poster who thinks Eli is above blame or that he hasn't contributed to the poor seasons. I can find several posters who truly believe that eli is the root of the problem
I'm not sure your point here. We haven't made the playoffs the last 6 of 7 years and it doesn't look like we;ll make it next year either (though in football sure anything can happen.). And the last two years have produced 8 wins combined. Why wouldnt you expect Eli to take some blame? How much positive can you spin? Frankly I think too many have been beaten down.
ANother thread had I believe a few posters thinking if it weren't for those few games we lost close - that we're actually close to being real good. These posters imo have "accepted' losing. A loss is a loss. WHen you have 11 you stink. You get no wins for being close to winning. There is no "close" a sany positive when you lose ELEVEN.
Anyhow-- I don't see the big deal for many many posters complaining to some degree of Eli - all of us are witness to all these awful seasons. You can't "excuse" him. But I agree with you some pin the blame on ELi but EVERYONE should give him SOME blame. He plays the most important position on the football field. His stats are not good this year for example as far as QBR. You say yourself that everyone deserves the blame but we see who wins "the SUper Bowl MVP's" and which positions get paid the most etc. It starts a lot with the QB. So when things are great the Qb gets accolades but when things go bad let's not go after the QB who is having a subpar year according to QBR?
As far as "part of the reason" why some posters support ELi in the manner you speak-- I'm sorry but I don't agree in fanaticism like this OP has shown. I dont't believe the absurdity of using "points scored" - I think it's embarrassing to even bring it up on this site. I think its embarrassing for anyone to think ELi at this point in his career for a season is better than Matt Ryan.
**But the bottomline is the QB gets the adoration and accolades if all goes well and the blame if it doesn't. Just go look at a recent title on this site here called ----
"Eli dropped 35 points against a very good Cowboys D"
and then the OP saqbar999 goes on to say Eli also dropped 27 against a good colt d.
We both know it's a team game and it was a lot more than just "Eli." But no one argued that. It's just natural and acknowledged that's what the Qb gets. THe QB position iIS the most important position on the field. It can't be ignored. SO when the Gmen put up 35 points -- it's accepted as Eli. WHen eli had all those come from behind victories those are "Eli's come from behind victories" and not much said of the individual other player's and how they are "clutch" for their careers. Thus when they now lose ofc it comes back to bite him.
This is exactly how it should be. But I agree temperament that this is no way no way no way all eli's fault imo it is wrong BUT to excuse the fanatics like the OP and some of his ilk is wrong too. We're not some wimpy fans such as in baseball Tampa bay. We shouldn't accept ;losing and further it's terrible to read some posters giving excuses "but if not for 4 close games . . . etc."
We have a Qb in which the data shows through QBR that he had a sub par year. even someone like USAF using "eyeball" sees it even though he doesnt agree with QBR. I'm hopeful on here that all of us can be honest to a certain degree and accept BOTH POV that it isn't entirely Eli's fault nor is it what thefantaics like the OP and his ilk dont want to give any blame to him or extremely minimal. IMO we MUST try to be FAIR and have it go BOTH ways. If posters like the op and his ilk can't take Eli criticism it still doesnt justify their fanaticism.
They need ot get over it. It;s the nature of the beast with the QB - the most important position on the football field.
but not one to prevent the front office doing EVERYTHING they can find a quality replacement for Eli this season.
It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.
Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...
See if we have the season we had this year... there are going to be options galore for QB.
Tua
Fromm
Herbert - he was the supposed best this year
Eason
We can start with those 4 and I am sure there will be a handful of others as well. I can argue those 4 are better prospects than Haskins or Jones or lock.
Id be pretty stoked to land one of them.
Eason is a better prospect than Haskins based on what? His 16 tds and 2400 yards? Or the fact he hasnt played football in two years?
but not one to prevent the front office doing EVERYTHING they can find a quality replacement for Eli this season.
It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.
Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...
See if we have the season we had this year... there are going to be options galore for QB.
Tua
Fromm
Herbert - he was the supposed best this year
Eason
We can start with those 4 and I am sure there will be a handful of others as well. I can argue those 4 are better prospects than Haskins or Jones or lock.
Id be pretty stoked to land one of them.
Well then its done...Giants will just draft their future star QB in 2020. Nothing else to consider.
Eason is a better prospect than Haskins based on what? His 16 tds and 2400 yards? Or the fact he hasnt played football in two years?
Eason was the number 1 prospect in the nation coming out of high school. He started as a true freshman. He got hurt. Shit happens. He has 1 year at Washington left.... where he is beloved on that team. Can he tank? Sure. But I believe he will be in the mix for the first orund next year.
This is exactly how it should be. But I agree temperament that this is no way no way no way all eli's fault imo it is wrong BUT to excuse the fanatics like the OP and some of his ilk is wrong too. We're not some wimpy fans such as in baseball Tampa bay. We shouldn't accept ;losing and further it's terrible to read some posters giving excuses "but if not for 4 close games . . . etc."
Again - who is accepting losing? Better yet - what isn't accepting losing? Is it saying that the GM and HC need to be fired when we were halfway through the season? Is it getting disappointed that a QB wasn't drafted and then spend all year bitching about how we needed to select one of the many QB's who look nothing better than mediocre so far?
Is it expecting 3rd rounders to be failures because the previous GM whiffed on them?
In my experience, not accepting losses just sounds like a lot of fucking whining.
Eason is a better prospect than Haskins based on what? His 16 tds and 2400 yards? Or the fact he hasnt played football in two years?
Eason was the number 1 prospect in the nation coming out of high school. He started as a true freshman. He got hurt. Shit happens. He has 1 year at Washington left.... where he is beloved on that team. Can he tank? Sure. But I believe he will be in the mix for the first orund next year.
You dont realize your hypocrisy do you?
Haskins has only played one year... cant take him
Eason has played one, which was nowhere near as good as Haskins... better NFL prospect based on nothing but Deps gut.
No? So hes going to play ANOTHER year. Oh, thanks. So if math isnt your thing. 1 year at georgia plus 1 year at Washington means hes going to have TWO years of material shown.
If Haskins goes back, that gives him a 2nd year as well. And a chance to hone his skills to be in the conversation as well. Understand now?
No? So hes going to play ANOTHER year. Oh, thanks. So if math isnt your thing. 1 year at georgia plus 1 year at Washington means hes going to have TWO years of material shown.
If Haskins goes back, that gives him a 2nd year as well. And a chance to hone his skills to be in the conversation as well. Understand now?
You said hes a better prospect than Haskins based off nothing. That second year means nothing talking about today. Youd pass on a guy because another guy has a hypothetical second year?
Youre basing him being better than Haskins off one year. Thats not being
They need ER, OT/OL, FS and CB help right away. Even a pass rush LB type if exceptional. I still feel that is what they do. The defense is just garbage and a couple tweaks on the oline would go a long way. OC needs to be a focus too in order to stymie the push up the middle.
Of course until we see what they focus on in FA, there is no way to know the direction DG takes in the draft beofre FA.
You're exacty right. If the GMen feel he isn;t it then ofc pass-- but they better be right. I read dg can't be right all the time which is correct. But he keeps his job or loses his job based on his degree of being right or wrong. He better be rightifhe passes on him.
What gets me is the fanaticism though by some to just dump on Haskins without reading. As I posted before-
My view he looks good so does Bleacher report, walter Camp, Sb Nation, NBC sports, Sporting News, Mel Kiper, Fotballmaven, Thunderdogpsorts. - ANd Pro football weekly had an article in October saying hsi stock was rising as the 1st qb to be taken only after 6 games but the writer expressed caution that he had to see more. SO he didnt assign a number but so far he's been off thecharts.
I dont know but I expect the Gmen to know. But what gets me is posters liek the op just blinded by ELi fanatcism. The points he makes about Haskins are addressed within some of the references i cited above. DO you think he'll even take ONE SECOND toto look into it? He won't A guy such as Kiper says he was in denial but after so such a strong season he relented and now is 10.
People like the OP and his ilk arent going into this with no open mind. They herd in October that some scouts anted to see more from Haskins or maybe Sy didnt like him in ealry october? but you get the feeling many have changed their minds.
**And as I mentioned above of Profootballweekly the writer specifically adresses so few games in his October article. He says let's see how the rest of the season plays out. Well- we know how it has so far he's been outstanding. Yet what do keep reading from the OP - still hacking away at Haskins. OFC he could be right but imo this guy is a pathetic hero-worshipping fan. He is dug in on ELi and he doesn't want to hear shit - and he;ll keep making up stuff to stkkc up for his hero. I'm acknowledging 'I don't know." BUT
as I referenced MANy have turned the corner on Haskins because they have him in the top ten and nearly all have him as the top qb now.
And ofc you'll keep reading how the OP will keep pushing that people say get Haskins at all costs on this thread implying me. It;s a false narrative which he continually spouts on this subject and on ELi.
Im identifying references and can provide links. WHile the OP uses cliche look at Ohio State QBs of the past. It is mentioned butn anyways do you think all the services that have him in top 10 including Kiper don't know about OSU QB's of the past? I think Iread that this guy is different. Do you really think the OP is going to care? It's all about protecting his hero.
but not one to prevent the front office doing EVERYTHING they can find a quality replacement for Eli this season.
It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.
Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...
See if we have the season we had this year... there are going to be options galore for QB.
Tua
Fromm
Herbert - he was the supposed best this year
Eason
We can start with those 4 and I am sure there will be a handful of others as well. I can argue those 4 are better prospects than Haskins or Jones or lock.
Id be pretty stoked to land one of them.
Well then its done...Giants will just draft their future star QB in 2020. Nothing else to consider.
The OP is laughable. Doesn;t for one second think what will happen if Eli starts, the Gmen getTWO Linemen in free agency, draft a pass rusher that;s an impact in round 1-- the how the hell are we going to be in position to get any of the top 4 QB's?
Oh yeah simple WE:LL JUST TRADE UP -- EASY_ no one lese wants these stud QB's and we have so much talent we cna just easily give away future draft picks for a young QB which means we wont be ready to possibly be a contender until at least 2021. More tick tock tick tock with our RB Barkley.
we have to draft a QB this year or else the whole organization will cease to exist. They may eliminate the Giants altogether if they dont get a new one.
on the OL and defense through the draft is laughable?
Holy Shit. BBI sucks.
Who siad this?
You have quotes who said this or are you now in full lyinmg mode?
Pelease provdie the quotes that said drafting th OLine or DL is laughable.
I think oyu are lying. No one said it. I'm calling you a liar.
Liar.
Liar.
Liar.
Please provide the quotes who said drafting OL and dl is laughable. wt=hata was laughabel was your suggestion IF the Gmen get the OL and dl that we'd probalby get through FA and draft thatthye will win too many games ot get the elite QB
YOU ARE A LIAR
YOU ARE LYING
YOU ARE MISRESRENTING POSTS.
THis is the type of things fanatics like you do.
on the OL and defense through the draft is laughable?
Holy Shit. BBI sucks.
Who siad this?
You have quotes who said this or are you now in full lyinmg mode?
Pelease provdie the quotes that said drafting th OLine or DL is laughable.
I think oyu are lying. No one said it. I'm calling you a liar.
Liar.
Liar.
Liar.
Please provide the quotes who said drafting OL and dl is laughable. wt=hata was laughabel was your suggestion IF the Gmen get the OL and dl that we'd probalby get through FA and draft thatthye will win too many games ot get the elite QB
YOU ARE A LIAR
YOU ARE LYING
YOU ARE MISRESRENTING POSTS.
THis is the type of things fanatics like you do.
Yet says to me that I am close minded and dont want a QB change and never have.
Hows it go... Im rubber and youre glue... or whatever the fuck it is.
Keep talking out of your ass stock. I am going to go hang with my ilk. Ill continue to look to see how the giants can get better. You keep writing novels about whatever nonsense youve been writing the whole time.
From what Ive read from your mombo jombo... we have to draft a QB no matter what because an improved team next year means we cant even get a good AB.
The OP is laughable. Doesn;t for one second think what will happen if Eli starts, the Gmen getTWO Linemen in free agency, draft a pass rusher that;s an impact in round 1-- the how the hell are we going to be in position to get any of the top 4 QB's?
Oh yeah simple WE:LL JUST TRADE UP -- EASY_ no one lese wants these stud QB's and we have so much talent we cna just easily give away future draft picks for a young QB which means we wont be ready to possibly be a contender until at least 2021. More tick tock tick tock with our RB Barkley.
Lets break down this gem:
1. So we cant trade up huh?
Jets traded up to 3.
Buffalo traded up to 7.
Arizona traded up to 10.
Baltimore traded to 32.
So not only does your post make ZERO SENSE. We just saw 4 instances LAST year disproving your theory!!!
Great job Einstein!
Oh and the year before, didnt the Chiefs trade up to get Mahomes? Didnt the Bears trade up to get trubinsky? The year before that didnt the eagles trade up for Wentz?
You wanna keep going? Because this is embarrasing in itself. I mean mic dropped bad.
is average before people stop claiming I'm calling him the 2nd coming of Joe Montana.
As to the QBR thing and the top QBs consistently being on top. Let's look:
Tom Brady: 97.7 Rating or 70.6 Total QBR (ESPN version) if you prefer.
5th ranked rushing offense. 21st ranked defense.
The popular choice for GOAT right now.
Russel Wilson: 110.9 or 65.6
1st ranked rushing offense. 16th ranked defense.
One of my favorite QBs right now.
Patrick Mahomes: 113.8 or 81.6
16th ranked rushing offense. 31st ranked defense.
This QB and passing offense are on fire.
Drew Brees: 115.7 or 80.8
6th ranked rushing offense. 14th ranked defense.
Drew Brees is in contention for the GOAT as far as I'm concerned.
Matt Ryan: 108.1 or 68.2
27th ranked rushing offense. 28th ranked defense.
He's having a pretty good year IMHO.
Philip Rivers: 105.5 or 70.2
15th ranked rushing offense. 9th ranked defense.
I think he's having a good year.
Andrew Luck: 98.7 or 71.7
20th ranked rushing offense. 11th ranked defense.
Nothing to add except first year back.
Aaron Rogers: 97.6 or 60.6
22nd ranked rushing offense. 18th ranked defense.
Also has been in contention as the GOAT. Not this year! Not even close.
Dak Prescott: 96.9 or 57.8
10th ranked rushing offense. 7th ranked defense.
Jared Goff: 101.1 or 66.4
3rd ranked rushing offense. 19th ranked defense.
Ben Roethlisberger: 96.5 or 71.8
31st ranked rushing offense. 6th ranked defense.
Eli Manning: 92.4 or 51.8
24th ranked rushing offense. 24th ranked defense.
The fact that the Giants have the 2nd leading rusher in the league with Barkley but are ranked 24th says a lot. Their run vs pass ration explains it even more. RUN THE DAMN BALL!
Not including Wentz or Smith due to injuries. Foles not enough time playing. Similar for other QBs. Tell me if I missed someone important.
Why am I pointing out their rushing offense and defensive ranks? A QB has very little control over having a good to great rushing game. At best, they can look at the coverage and switch in or out of a run. They have absolutely no control over how a defense performs. However, as we all know, a solid run game can help a defense by giving them more time to rest. QB's, in turn, have to overcome a poor rushing offense or a poor defense to win games.
Therefore, let's see what Eli Manning has to overcome by averaging all these QB's team rankings with a better rating than Eli Manning;
Average Offensive rush ranking: 13.33 or 13th by rounding.
Average Defensive ranking: 16.25 or 16th by rounding.
Eli has to overcome deficits of 11 ranks in rushing offense and 8 ranks in defense. This is not cherry picking at all. These are very legit stats. Eli has little to no control over the rushing offense and absolutely no control over the defense. You can do this same check every year because the Giants' defense has not been good. Their rushing offense has not been good. At least not consistently year to year. In 2011, both were on the bottom of the league and that's why I say Eli had that one 'Elite" year. His QBR that year was top 10, barely, ranking 10th.
BTW, the Giants passing offense, is ranked 11th. Call me crazy but I think the QB has something to do with that. From the above list that's ranked higher than Wilson, Brees, Luck, Rogers, Prescott, and Newton. Am I saying Eli is better than them, no. Sure as hell not Brees, Wilson, Rogers, or Luck. It just goes towards showing that the QBR is a bullshit stat. Always has been and always will be. It claims to factor everything in but it doesn't.
I will also again repeat that I think Eli Manning is average right now. He is not part of the problem or the solution. The team can win with him if they fix the other parts but should absolutely go for the heir apparent when they identify one that's worthy. They should look to improve every position on the roster when possible but shouldn't reach because of the importance of the position. I don't want to go through Brown, Kanell, Graham, and Collins again. I'd rather hold on to average and build the team around him and for the next QB.
Also of note, the team had exactly 8 games before and after the bye. The team significantly improved after the bye. It improved when Gettleman and Shurmur shifted the OL. It improved when they significantly started running the ball more and passing less. Again I saw, they are figuring it out. Pass rush has become priority 1A (I say that because the upcoming draft seems to favor pass rushers to me). OL is 1B. QB, based on both need and strength of the draft, are hardly even on my radar for 2019.
The OP is laughable. Doesn;t for one second think what will happen if Eli starts, the Gmen getTWO Linemen in free agency, draft a pass rusher that;s an impact in round 1-- the how the hell are we going to be in position to get any of the top 4 QB's?
Oh yeah simple WE:LL JUST TRADE UP -- EASY_ no one lese wants these stud QB's and we have so much talent we cna just easily give away future draft picks for a young QB which means we wont be ready to possibly be a contender until at least 2021. More tick tock tick tock with our RB Barkley.
Lets break down this gem:
1. So we cant trade up huh?
Jets traded up to 3.
Buffalo traded up to 7.
Arizona traded up to 10.
Baltimore traded to 32.
So not only does your post make ZERO SENSE. We just saw 4 instances LAST year disproving your theory!!!
Great job Einstein!
Oh and the year before, didnt the Chiefs trade up to get Mahomes? Didnt the Bears trade up to get trubinsky? The year before that didnt the eagles trade up for Wentz?
You wanna keep going? Because this is embarrasing in itself. I mean mic dropped bad.
Youd be ok trading picks to move up? What if that guys busts?
by precentage the opportunity is a near lock. 80% last year. 66% the year before. 66% the year before that.
Once again ignoring the point.
Of course there will be trades. Will the Giants be in a position to trade up? Will the asking price be too high for them? Will someone out bid them for a spot? Will the teams in key spots want to trade or take the QB themselves?
The 11th ranked passing game also has a high correlation to attempts which the Giants are actually 9th in.
we are going to agree to disagree to some extent - qbr has some correlation of quality of play-since it considers ypa and td pct and int pct. More about efficiency than aggregation.
dont disagree with a fair amount you said though. never suggested you claimed eli was still old eli 😃. believe thats directed elsewhere.
there is no objective way to factor things like the quality of team around a qb so maybe in the future a stat which factors drops, time in pocket, and other metrics emerges which better describes individual impact.
here is my problem with QBR. Again, I am not going to say it doesnt have merrit. But I look back to one week imparticular....
Week 11 vs. TB.
Eli Manning was 18 inches away from having a perfect day passing with 3 TDs. The 18 inches was he threw the ball on the wrong shoulder of Barkley. 18 inches from doing everything EXACTLY what a QB needed to do.
He was flawless. He was near perfect. But still only good enough for 11th of the week! 10 other QBs were considered to have better days.
Now I am not saying this is the case every week, or that other QBs didnt play better. But he literally played the perfect game, and his QBR doesnt reflect it.
It also rewards QBs who run more than pocket passers. Which can really skew the data.
qbr per game is not enough sample size that is for sure. it gets better with more attempts. qbr does not factor for the quality of the team and it does not account specifics of the situations in games (why its better over a stretch of games).......
ultimately we have to use a series of metrics and some consideration of the situation to evaluate qbs.
But in almost every case, players we consider great correlate with high qbr relative to their peers for a season or a a career.
in fact, Eli may be the most oddball case in NFL history-great impact with relatively average qbr with respect to peers.
Anyway, Eli was not my focus in this. just a mid 90s qbr was once stellar, its a median number in todays nfl.
Giantstock, I'm not annoyed with you specifically as several people say the same thing. I also get annoyed when people say that Eli didn't earn his SB MVPs because the defense won those. it's simply wrong. As to you claiming you are not assuming Gettleman is willing to trade back because he hasn't done it before is, in fact, an assumption. You are assuming he won't trade back because he's never done it before but he hasn't even had that many opportunities to do so. I still believe Gettleman is capable of making any available decision during the draft and is open to all options. I'm not making the assumption, you are. If there was some kind of legitimate evidence to support that Gettleman doesn't consider trade downs, you might have something. Simply not doing it yet does not a case make. It's like saying if you rolled a couple dice 5 times and never got snake eyes, you never will. This is a logical fallacy. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Additionally, you continue to be stuck on this point scored thing. Like I believe this be some all great measurement. All I'm saying is it does matter. It does say something. You make it sound like I think it's the most important stat in the world. I'll remind you for the last time that I followed up with the defense allowing more points stat as I thought that was more telling. You seem to be having trouble getting past that point. You're the one fixated on it. I'm not. If you think that a team's OL doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think that a team's defense doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the run game doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the game plan doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think penalties doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think etc. etc. etc. Now, how much of that information really goes into the QBR?
As to Dep, yea, he's Eli's biggest defender on here and I don't fault him for that. There are just as many on the opposite side that constantly bash Eli that you seem to discount. It's gotten ridiculous on both sides of that coin. I'm thankful to Dep on occasions .
As stated USAF I respect your opinion but disagree on everything you view vs what I view though i think we both agree we can't do much about it and just hope DGmakes the rightchoices.
Point 1-- I disagree that you are saying "assumption." It is fact that he hasn't done it before. Until he does it would be extreme to assume he wil be creative when has not shown ot be creative. It would be an assumption on both sides to say if he will or he won't. You seemed to imply/assume/predict he will in the 4th round. So if you can do it- so can I. I just want to see him do it and not assume he will though in my view that would be near meaningless in comparison to the context of our point of what Philly did to get Wentz vs what DG might do to get a 02 QB by trading up. IMO it would be an assumption to say he can do it successfully. If he does get creative in trades then I'll believe it. Until then I think he's a blcokhead with litle imagination per the reasons I've cited before. SHow me. I don't care about "assumptions" which you seem ot want to refer to this to.
If need be show me dg you can do something creative until then what makes you think he is capable? Your hope? Nothing he has done so far has been creative except he shocked many of in believing this team was good early on.
Point 2-- Youmention I can get past the "Points scored" issue. But that's the subject of this thread. It leads me to your points that I don't criticize those that hammer Eli at all costs. Butthat's not the subject of this thread. Its kind of strange you feel on this thread I should have a priority to do so. The points scored is to the issue I was arguing with the start of this thread so going after the the ones who always post against ELi doesn't address the issue.
DOes it mean every time I have a problem with a pro ELi thread I MUST make an absolute statement of the dummies who always criticize him for all things that have gone wrong?
If I see some thread and some idiot blaming ELi for everything i'm not going to go off-topic and bring up the silly comments made by this OP who looks to protect eli at all costs thus there is no reason for me to do on this one.
Point 3-- Are you trying to validate "points scored" vs QbR rating and justifying the absuridity ofthe OP implying that some of us who have criticized Eli that we're absurd to say eli hasn't been very good at all?He;s using "points scored" against us so you can't say I'm hung up on it when he is trying to use it to show how wrong we are that criticize. And you seem to be more on his side so ofc i'm going to put it back on you. You seem to be trying to justify it in this case. It's unjustifiable.
Point 4-- You said it does matter I say in this case it is hogwash vs QBR. QBR shows what you see with your eyeball. Points scored is beyond useless. You mention how the OL is for example affecting the QB sure you would be right but this leads to point 5-- which 4 and 5 and 6 are related
Point 5-- Also the QB affects the OL - he can make it better or worse. It's not all the OL. And what about the coach and maybe these coaches? How much of a level do we need ot go????? That's the extreme I think you're taking this. The QB affects the defense that's why you're issue of defense is completely irrelevant which I'll address in 6. When evaluating ulating the topic of this thread "poits scored" it can't tell us who is more reponsible. ANd yte you are justifying it. who si mroe repsonsible for all these [points: is it Barkley, or Eli, or the comeption (for example we catch teams with 2nd string QB's and teams devatsed by injuires or have easier shceules oetc. Barkley makes a usper run vs Dallas and yet the title of the thread is Eli puts up 35. SO imo you need ot hsow how the offense alos affetcs the defnse and what;s Eli's impact.
Point 6-- you indicate the defense- but you look at it with little to no view as to what the Gmen are doing on offense as to how it affects the defense. Toptenhammer, the poster, cited in games things eli could have done so much during critical situation such that we wouldnt have lost. This is just a small window as to how for example opposing defenses can stack the box and dare Eli to beat them. SO when teams stack the box and we can;t run out the clock wouldn;t it stand to reason that the QB has some blame in this? Yet all we're going to do is blame the defense even though the team this year was built more for it's offense and because Barkley is keyed on After all, this team was built for it's offense. SHOULD HAVE BEE N BETTER.
Wen th KC Chiefs play they know they have to score. So if thye put up 30 points thorugh 3 but dont do shit in the 4th and can;t hodl the lead it's all on the KC defense? To start teh season thsi Gmen offense was supposed ot carry thsi team. They put a lot intohigh dratf picks for the offense. This offense was usppose dot keep the defense of the field. Onstead the opsoing teams stack the line and dare the Gmen to beat them wiht ELi and the wr's.
What you have to consider in all this Eli bashing is that their is an undercurrent which many like the OP ignore in that he's OLD. Sure it's acknowledged but then we all get the same tired response "but he gives us our best chance to win." The point is he doesnt give this team the best chance to win future super bowls. That ship has sailed. His slower read play a factor in his effectiveness and as a result put more pressure on the defense that what it should.
Point 7 - You don;t fault the OP for being a fanatic -I do.
yet you havent proven dick. You accused me and other Eli fans of being close minded to changing QBs and not wanting a change when the majority of us wanted Sam Darnold in the last draft.
So heres an idea. Shut the hell up. And stop accusing people of things you dont know dick about.
As stated USAF I respect your opinion but disagree on everything you view vs what I view though i think we both agree we can't do much about it and just hope DGmakes the rightchoices.
Point 1-- I disagree that you are saying "assumption." It is fact that he hasn't done it before. Until he does it would be extreme to assume he wil be creative when has not shown ot be creative. It would be an assumption on both sides to say if he will or he won't. You seemed to imply/assume/predict he will in the 4th round. So if you can do it- so can I. I just want to see him do it and not assume he will though in my view that would be near meaningless in comparison to the context of our point of what Philly did to get Wentz vs what DG might do to get a 02 QB by trading up. IMO it would be an assumption to say he can do it successfully. If he does get creative in trades then I'll believe it. Until then I think he's a blcokhead with litle imagination per the reasons I've cited before. SHow me. I don't care about "assumptions" which you seem ot want to refer to this to.
If need be show me dg you can do something creative until then what makes you think he is capable? Your hope? Nothing he has done so far has been creative except he shocked many of in believing this team was good early on.
Point 2-- Youmention I can get past the "Points scored" issue. But that's the subject of this thread. It leads me to your points that I don't criticize those that hammer Eli at all costs. Butthat's not the subject of this thread. Its kind of strange you feel on this thread I should have a priority to do so. The points scored is to the issue I was arguing with the start of this thread so going after the the ones who always post against ELi doesn't address the issue.
DOes it mean every time I have a problem with a pro ELi thread I MUST make an absolute statement of the dummies who always criticize him for all things that have gone wrong?
If I see some thread and some idiot blaming ELi for everything i'm not going to go off-topic and bring up the silly comments made by this OP who looks to protect eli at all costs thus there is no reason for me to do on this one.
Point 3-- Are you trying to validate "points scored" vs QbR rating and justifying the absuridity ofthe OP implying that some of us who have criticized Eli that we're absurd to say eli hasn't been very good at all?He;s using "points scored" against us so you can't say I'm hung up on it when he is trying to use it to show how wrong we are that criticize. And you seem to be more on his side so ofc i'm going to put it back on you. You seem to be trying to justify it in this case. It's unjustifiable.
Point 4-- You said it does matter I say in this case it is hogwash vs QBR. QBR shows what you see with your eyeball. Points scored is beyond useless. You mention how the OL is for example affecting the QB sure you would be right but this leads to point 5-- which 4 and 5 and 6 are related
Point 5-- Also the QB affects the OL - he can make it better or worse. It's not all the OL. And what about the coach and maybe these coaches? How much of a level do we need ot go????? That's the extreme I think you're taking this. The QB affects the defense that's why you're issue of defense is completely irrelevant which I'll address in 6. When evaluating ulating the topic of this thread "poits scored" it can't tell us who is more reponsible. ANd yte you are justifying it. who si mroe repsonsible for all these [points: is it Barkley, or Eli, or the comeption (for example we catch teams with 2nd string QB's and teams devatsed by injuires or have easier shceules oetc. Barkley makes a usper run vs Dallas and yet the title of the thread is Eli puts up 35. SO imo you need ot hsow how the offense alos affetcs the defnse and what;s Eli's impact.
Point 6-- you indicate the defense- but you look at it with little to no view as to what the Gmen are doing on offense as to how it affects the defense. Toptenhammer, the poster, cited in games things eli could have done so much during critical situation such that we wouldnt have lost. This is just a small window as to how for example opposing defenses can stack the box and dare Eli to beat them. SO when teams stack the box and we can;t run out the clock wouldn;t it stand to reason that the QB has some blame in this? Yet all we're going to do is blame the defense even though the team this year was built more for it's offense and because Barkley is keyed on After all, this team was built for it's offense. SHOULD HAVE BEE N BETTER.
Wen th KC Chiefs play they know they have to score. So if thye put up 30 points thorugh 3 but dont do shit in the 4th and can;t hodl the lead it's all on the KC defense? To start teh season thsi Gmen offense was supposed ot carry thsi team. They put a lot intohigh dratf picks for the offense. This offense was usppose dot keep the defense of the field. Onstead the opsoing teams stack the line and dare the Gmen to beat them wiht ELi and the wr's.
What you have to consider in all this Eli bashing is that their is an undercurrent which many like the OP ignore in that he's OLD. Sure it's acknowledged but then we all get the same tired response "but he gives us our best chance to win." The point is he doesnt give this team the best chance to win future super bowls. That ship has sailed. His slower read play a factor in his effectiveness and as a result put more pressure on the defense that what it should.
Point 7 - You don;t fault the OP for being a fanatic -I do.
giantstock,
I respect your opinion too. I offer you no ill will. Yes, we both know it's up to Gettleman to make the right choice. I will respond to each of your "points" and then that will be it for me on this thread. I just don't have the time so agree to disagree. If you post a rebuttal, I will read it and respect your opinion on it. I don't wish to ignore you as you make some decent points. Again, agree to disagree.
Point 1: I don't think you understand how assumption works. I don't assume Gettleman will do anything based on his past. Literally, everything that he can do is open as an option. His past does not his future make. To "assume" he will do something based on his past, especially such a short past history, is a logical fallacy. You are assuming he will not trade down. I am not assuming he will do anything but simply accept trading down is, in fact, one of his options that he may or may not choose. That, in no way, is an assumption on my part.
Point 2: You are tying me into the OP. I'm not the OP. My responses have been to you like yours have been to me but I didn't post about the OP's point specifically other than supporting one of his points with extra data. That extra data was not about "point scored". If you want specifics on who, what, when, where, why, and how of "points scored", I suggest you ask the OP. In fact, our conversations have helped derail the thread which I didn't mean to do and is another reason why this will be my last post on it.
Point 3: Again, I never compared "points scored" vs QBR. I've answered this before. This is really Point 2 worded differently. New question though about QBR being the same as the eyeball test I've already explained before as well. It's supposed to be that way but to me, it's not. I had a whole seperate post showing why I think QBR is a garbage stat. Several other posters showed why it's flawed. Nothing will fix it because there are way way way too many variables involved for the QB position. It will never be a worthwile stat.
Point 4: How many different ways are you going to re-word this and call it a different point? That's rhetorical.
Point 5: See there it is again, "points scored". Kindly, speak to the OP about "points scored". Your multiple points have made my point for me though. Thank you.
Point 6: If you are suggesting now that Eli is affecting the defense with anymore than what I already mentioned about the running the ball more helping the defense, I can't help you with that. Sounds like you are now trying to assign some blame to Eli for the poor defense as well. I've explained several times on multiple threads that yes, all of those things and more affect the QB. Your precious QBR does not reflect those. It can't and never will. There is no such metric that can cover everything about a QB. I gave a very long post on this very thread showing just a couple of those outside factors affecting the QB with legit stats to back it up. There are a myriad of other factors I can include as well.
Here's one more and then I'm done. How were Eli's interception numbers under Gilbride compared to after Gilbride? Under Gilbride: 18, all others: 13.6. An offensive scheme affects the QB. QBR doesn't effectively factor that in. Disclaimer: This is not a complaint about Gilbride but an acknowledgement that his offense was not QB friendly. It had more risk/reward to it.
Next, are we comparing the Giants' offense to KC? Yea, that's fair. Sarcasm in case that was missed. I love how all of your examples are to the extreme direction one way or the other. I'll ask you this though, as we both acknowledge (I think) that Barkley is the team's best chance to score, why is on several games where the Giant's needed another score to win at the end, the play caller (Shurmur) didn't call Barkley's number? Hell, most of the time, he was on the sideline. A couple of those, OBJ wasn't in the game either.
Point 7: I can't fault the OP for being a fanatic and ignore everyone on the flip side of that coin like you do, no. You clearly disagree with the OP and that's fine. You even get to complain about him posting something simply because you don't agree. It's ironic but yes you can do that. It's a fan forum. It's a sports' fan forum. Go to any other sport's fan forum and you will see the same thing. It's basically what we do on these forums. If ANY OF US actually knew any better than the current Giants' staff, we would probably be working for them and not have time to post on a fan forum.
here is my problem with QBR. Again, I am not going to say it doesnt have merrit. But I look back to one week imparticular....
Week 11 vs. TB.
Eli Manning was 18 inches away from having a perfect day passing with 3 TDs. The 18 inches was he threw the ball on the wrong shoulder of Barkley. 18 inches from doing everything EXACTLY what a QB needed to do.
He was flawless. He was near perfect. But still only good enough for 11th of the week! 10 other QBs were considered to have better days.
Now I am not saying this is the case every week, or that other QBs didnt play better. But he literally played the perfect game, and his QBR doesnt reflect it.
It also rewards QBs who run more than pocket passers. Which can really skew the data.
The nature of the stat is that it grades on a curve.
10/10 for 3 TDs can be perfect within what you're asked to do.
"perfect" doesn't take into account things like yards per attempt, or each throw in particular. Not all throws are the same. Most modern QB metrics grade on difficulty. The QB that hits on long downfield throws with accuracy gets more credit than the QB who's offense asks him to possess the ball and string together short passes.
When you look at the pass chart for the game, it really was a short passing game other than one deep shot to Beckham for 41 yards.
It also punishes things like fumbles and turnovers heavily, maybe excessively so.
The nature of the stat is that it grades on a curve.
10/10 for 3 TDs can be perfect within what you're asked to do.
"perfect" doesn't take into account things like yards per attempt, or each throw in particular. Not all throws are the same. Most modern QB metrics grade on difficulty. The QB that hits on long downfield throws with accuracy gets more credit than the QB who's offense asks him to possess the ball and string together short passes.
When you look at the pass chart for the game, it really was a short passing game other than one deep shot to Beckham for 41 yards.
It also punishes things like fumbles and turnovers heavily, maybe excessively so.
And I get and understand that. But sometimes these metrics dont reward you for doing what you are suppose to do. I mean whether you like Eli or not, we can agree that game he was pretty damn good. He wasnt asked to throw all over the place, but when he was - he was inches away from being perfect.
He should not be penalized for that. I mean I think Big Ben had a higher rating that week with 3 turnovers and 3 more dropped ones too.
The original Quarterback rating stat is pretty flawed too
There's a reason why they're looking for new stats, because it's hard to capture an entire game worth of plays in the right context.
With QB rating, you throw a few touchdowns, you get a pretty rating even if you were foul through 3 quarters and pulled it together at the end.
I don't remember the Roethlisberger game, but Eli having the 11th highest grade that week isn't really a 'punishment'. It's just pointing out that he did his job well.
I'm not saying anything to minimize what he did. He did everything they needed him to do that game and he was great for the team in that game. But any scale has to leave room for people who play exceptionally well, too. I think Luck had the highest-rated QBR game that week, he played the Titans and went 23/29 for 297 with 3 touchdowns. And we have seen firsthand how good the Titans defense is.
He didn't complete as many passes as Eli did, but the rating is higher because he didn't have a fumble, and the opponent was much tougher.
I think the doubt around the stat just comes from the way it's computed and the factors that they take into account.
I am not a fan of QB rating either. A QB can be rewarded for completing a screen pass that a player can take 80 yards for a TD. It doesnt account for fumbles lost either. There are lot of things that arent accounted for. A defender drops an INT, it doesnt show much. And with QBR it takes into when stats are accumalated.... QB rating doesnt - so the famous "garbage time stats" can inflate a QBs rating.
Panthers, 2nd Eagles game, Colts and yesterday.
All could have and should have been wins.
This defense needs an injection of talent across the board.
There aren't many players that started this year that I would keep for next season.
But this pass rush & secondary makes us uncompetitive. Can't expect a rookie QB to step into these conditions.
welcome to the next 6 months.
If you're a coach, you take Webb all day.
I like responses like these.
Is anything I said inaccurate? Its funny people who respond like these cant admit their inaccuracies during the year.
welcome to the next 6 months.
Oh yeah for the next 6 months we wont be hearing about how we need to move in from Eli. We only have what 12 from yesterday?
Their defense gave up points on opponents last possession to lose 4 games - Car, Phi, Indy, Dal
Defense also gave up points on opponents last possession in 3 other games that were 1 possession games. Atl, NO, Was
The defense outside of 2016 has come up so small on so many occasions
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on Big Eli Interactive are the ones that pretend they aren't all about Eli.
I like responses like these.
Is anything I said inaccurate? Its funny people who respond like these cant admit their inaccuracies during the year.
Nope, you're dead-on-balls-accurate as usual. Keep truckin'.
not that the offense is great, as most of the points and yards occurred when the season was over... so they still count.... but when the season mattered, the offense stunk as well- and blew games.
the team juts isnt good- blaming 1 guy or 1 side is pointless.
the QB is old and needs to be replaced- this year or in the next 2.
the OL needs another good player.
the defense needs 5 starters
on the positive side we have the best kicker in the league
at least embrace it. it will make you more endearing.
The truth is a lot of yardage and points came in come from behind and garbage time. I think this is also a tad skewed from a division perspective given the Redskins went into the toilet after Smiths injury and Eagles have had some of their key personnel missing on offense (OL, RB) and unsettled QB play at the early part of the season.
It does show how horrific the defense was overall. Also shows how Beckham is not the end all be all. We can score and win without him now.
Um Brees has a big cap hit... hows their defense doing? SDs?
at least embrace it. it will make you more endearing.
I am not really concerned what people think of me here. Never really have. There are tons of people who I respect and interact with. I just love the posters who consistently point out my agenda but stay silent on the opposite viewpoint. And thats fine. Thats what makes forums so great.
Hitdog post was a great one. Ill add this. You can have prime around Rodgers and it wont mean a hill of beans unless you fix what has been the most constant thing in our hapless 7 years outside 1.
A terrible defense.
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How good could you expect the Defense to be?
Um Brees has a big cap hit... hows their defense doing? SDs?
The difference is Brees and Rivers played up to those big cap # ..
Eli didnt and when the games mattered the Giants couldnt score points..
Also take a look at the garbage time TDs the Giants scored against Atl and Dallas when the game was already decided
...what you say is true enough. And, clearly, with a better defense this team would have accrued at least 3 more wins.
But your implied support of Eli is so beside the point.
All considered, Eli had a good season.
But look at him yesterday and look at Dak Prescott and that's all you need to do.
Eli can't make plays by himself.
Eli cannot extend plays by himself.
Eli cannot escape a pass rush and get out on the edge and threaten a defense with either a pass or a run.
Eli cannot make the sort of play that energizes a team.
Yesterday, everything that Eli did NOT do, Dak Prescott DID!
So, think about all of your threads that you've gone to bat for Eli Manning. Over several years.
What do you have to show for it?
That he is a good QB; that he is a system QB; that he needs a strong supporting cast; and that when the going gets rough, Eli is going to the ground.
And Dak Prescott (hardly a Hall of Famer) is still running around.
The key stat is 5-11.
The key stat is 5-11.
What games were garbage time? 20 some points?
And what do backup QBs have to do with the offense? Seems like. The bears skins colts cowboys had their defenses playing... did they not?
and 369 points is a mid pack showing. curious what our median score was this year probably paints a better picture.
yes the team needs defense badly but this o was nothing great on the sun of season. if they play more like last two weeks all year maybe they are onto something.
Actually, Im not sure there were a lot of garbage time points this season. Im too lazy to look it up, but there were some stats posted yesterday about how close the Giants were in like 5 games lost. Remember too, this defense surrendered a lot of leads late in games. Every team in the NFL surrenders garbage time yards and points which is a big reason why I dont think football is a stats game like baseball. Having watched the games this season Ill say the defense was number one problem with this latest Giants losing campaign.
1) Shurmur is a terrible coach and play caller and very often put Eli and the offense in a bad situation
2) The O Line is horrible
3) Our weapons outside of SB are terrible or inconsistent. At different points this year, Shepard and Engram (and even OBJ) disappeared and let Eli down
4) the D if terrible and no better than college quality.
did I miss anything?
you will occasionally acknowledge a bad pass by Eli but ti is ALWAYS immediately followed by highlighting and then harping on some other mistake some one else also made.
I'm going to guess not many?
Maybe completions and yards.......but not many points.
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In comment 14241001 GoBlue6599 said:
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How good could you expect the Defense to be?
Um Brees has a big cap hit... hows their defense doing? SDs?
The difference is Brees and Rivers played up to those big cap # ..
Eli didnt and when the games mattered the Giants couldnt score points..
Also take a look at the garbage time TDs the Giants scored against Atl and Dallas when the game was already decided
Lots of teams score points in garbage time. In the end those things often even out over the course of a season when you are looking at Avg points per game. Unless you can point me to some stat showing that the Giants scored an inordinate amount in garbage time or decidedly more than other teams
They usually get over-read though. Or maybe I dont harp on them to the extent which BBI wants. Cause you know when he throws an INT... we need
50 threads
200 posts
And narratives as game changing back breaking INT only rookies makes
Calling him a fucking moron.
I promise you Ill work on that in the off-season so I can be like many BBIers here :)
If you're a coach, you take Webb all day.
I think the problem with the move is that it also weakened the depth chart. Even if Webb was better, Apple was better than the next 3 or 4 guys that suited up thereafter. Not that I think it mattered for this season, but it wasn't like addition by subtraction for this team.
The Giants need multiple pass rushers. A good pash rush closes out games. If DG does one thing to the defense it needs to be this.
I think any situation in which Shurmur is the coach can therefore not qualify as a great one.
Maybe he will improve dramatically, and maybe Curtis Riley will become the next Polamalu.
I do agree that Dak's performance yesterday should have a huge asterisk, but I thought the concept of asterisks offended you.
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For succeeding against a college defense is odd.
I do agree that Dak's performance yesterday should have a huge asterisk, but I thought the concept of asterisks offended you.
TBs defense really stepped up after Eli diced them. I think they next 4-5 games they had a 2:1 turnover:TD pass given up ratio.
So that asterik didnt make much sense :)
Points can come when you are always throwing from being down, and that happened quite often. I know the Defense wasn't great and needs work but lets not pretend the Giants offense was playoff worthy. Both sides need some major improvements.
To my eyes, with the exception of Barkley the offense stunk. Remember, this offense was abysmal until the season was effectively over at 1-7 and we started facing backup quarterbacks.
1. The offense is better than it was last year and improved as the season progressed.
2. The offense still needs work - including about 2 new starters on the offensive line, another WR, and a succession plan at QB.
1. The offense is better than it was last year and improved as the season progressed.
2. The offense still needs work - including about 2 new starters on the offensive line, another WR, and a succession plan at QB.
Sure, while also including:
3. The offense just got a RB drafted 2nd overall, a guard drafted with the 34th pick, had a bunch of money spent on the OL, and was healthier than last season.
4. With all 3 above, they were marginally better than last year's debacle.
Sure there was improvement - did the improvement warrant the investment? So far, not really.
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Can't one believe both of these things?
1. The offense is better than it was last year and improved as the season progressed.
2. The offense still needs work - including about 2 new starters on the offensive line, another WR, and a succession plan at QB.
Sure, while also including:
3. The offense just got a RB drafted 2nd overall, a guard drafted with the 34th pick, had a bunch of money spent on the OL, and was healthier than last season.
4. With all 3 above, they were marginally better than last year's debacle.
Sure there was improvement - did the improvement warrant the investment? So far, not really.
This line of thinking really isn't logical.
If we had taken Sam Darnold instead, you remove Saquon Barkley from the equation and almost are certainly looking at the same record (or worse) and an even less productive offense.
Would you still say the improvement didn't warrant the investment?
What series of offseason moves could have fixed the offense entirely in one offseason?
Some of the expectations for how this thing needed to progress seem very unrealistic. It's like just because Barkley and Hernandez didn't turn the Giants into a top 5 offense overnight, they weren't worth the investment.
Do you really think Hernandez was a wasted pick because the offense still needs to get better? I don't understand that at all.
To my eyes, with the exception of Barkley the offense stunk. Remember, this offense was abysmal until the season was effectively over at 1-7 and we started facing backup quarterbacks.
I actually agree. For 12/13 games this offense was awful. The other 3-4 games they played will and did what they needed to do (for the most part).
Not good enough, those numbers should be reversed, IMO. Still need a better line, still need better play calling.
Situationally and in the red zone the offense was shit. Anyone who paid attention to the games can see it. Points scored isnt an accurate reflection.
Points scored is a very skewed statstic, it doesnt give a true picture of the deficiencies of this unit.
Good point.
I think we also should show the stat where our defense ranks 32nd in the NFL, or dead last, in points allowed in the 4th quarter.
They were completely unable to get any sort of stop late in a game when we had a lead. I think Bettcher is a fine DC but there are too many holes personnel-wise still. The 2015 defense was horrible for the same reason. But we're going to have to hit on more replacements via the draft - we can't just fix it all via FA like Reese tried to do.
Part of me wants them to cut Eli, sign Tyrod Taylor on a 1 year deal, and try running some type of RPO. Get creative, use Barkley and Beckham dynamically, and let Engram get to work with more mismatches.
Just spitballing, but the offense needs to change.
Situationally and in the red zone the offense was shit. Anyone who paid attention to the games can see it. Points scored isnt an accurate reflection.
It was certainly a fact they struggled in the red zone early in the season but were much improved once the OL stabilized and they were able to run the ball more effectively...
What is the phrase - just sayin...
Problem is - I'm not sure it would have worked as well for the Giants for a few reasons.
1. It would mean no Will Hernandez - so, remove one of the only guys on the OL who seems to be worth a shit right now.
2. In addition, we would have less assets because we'd have needed to trade up to get Jackson
3. We don't have the defense Baltimore does. You can't play the run-heavy, ball control offense they're playing if you're in catch up mode. You have to have a defense good enough to let you dictate play and TOP for that to work.
I think the needs are obvious here and it's going to take a really good draft and much better FA period than we just had.
Situationally and in the red zone the offense was shit. Anyone who paid attention to the games can see it. Points scored isnt an accurate reflection.
For example they were second to last in Red Zone Success in the 1st and 2nd quarter. Last in the division in the 3rd quarter and and 2nd in the 4th quarter. Being that they only won 5 games, one can infer that they scored a lot when the game was out of reach.
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There was a star floating around twitter that had the Giants toward the top of the league with the game out of reach. Ill try to find it
Good point.
I think we also should show the stat where our defense ranks 32nd in the NFL, or dead last, in points allowed in the 4th quarter.
The Giants defense was average in Red Zone efficiency in the first half of games and toward the bottom of the league in the second.
Part of that is because of the offenses inability to sustain drives and be effective in scoring opportunities early in games. Its all relative.
This line of thinking really isn't logical.
If we had taken Sam Darnold instead, you remove Saquon Barkley from the equation and almost are certainly looking at the same record (or worse) and an even less productive offense.
Would you still say the improvement didn't warrant the investment?
What series of offseason moves could have fixed the offense entirely in one offseason?
Some of the expectations for how this thing needed to progress seem very unrealistic. It's like just because Barkley and Hernandez didn't turn the Giants into a top 5 offense overnight, they weren't worth the investment.
Do you really think Hernandez was a wasted pick because the offense still needs to get better? I don't understand that at all.
No, the line of thinking that isn't logical is the one that believes that the Giants being the highest scoring team in the NFCE means something.
The Redskins lost their starting OL and QB mid season. The Eagles were without their starting QB for most of the year. The Cowboys came in with a flawed roster on O and had to trade the farm for Amari Cooper midway through because of it.
Yet the Giants, with a franchise QB, a ton of money spent on the OL, the 2nd pick overall, a guard drafted high, after having picked on offense high the past couple of years - is still mediocre even on a good day. They needed the weak back end of the schedule and for one of the teams in the division to implode to arrive at this point.
You can say the D is in shambles - but they moved their best pass rusher before the season, moved two defensive starters early on. There's a lot more talent and money invested on the offensive side of the ball, and the returns aren't much better.
What should they have done you're asking? Well - if not Darnold, they should have either moved on from Eli and taken 2018 as a loss, taking the cap hit and clearing the books for 19. If the plan was to move forward with Eli for a couple of seasons, and everyone was apparently convinced that the OL was the #1 reason for the team's inability to score, then they should have drafted Nelson and then another OL high in the 2nd round. The Colts did exactly that, and it fixed their OL.
The Giants strategy is unclear to me - if it wasn't to win this year, I'm not sure how they have a path to anything better next season. And if they come in at 5-11 - 7-9 next season, they're right back where they started - not bad enough for a team changing draft, not good enough to make the playoffs.
I'm almost certain the same people will be singing the same songs at the end of 2019 if the results are what I expect them to be - 'you can't fix all of this in two offseasons or with a bunch of cap money', as if all of a sudden the NFL became the NBA. But hey, we scored more points than the rest of the NFC East - hooray! Go post that on an NFL board without a team affiliation and see how quickly you're laughed out of there.
The defense was worst in the league in rushing success and 5th best in the league in passing success on 3rd down when opponents were in Giants territory.
The defense was worst in the league in rushing success and 5th best in the league in passing success on 3rd down when opponents were in Giants territory.
Yeah, they both ha've work to do as we all saw. To me the defense is way behind.
Panthers, 2nd Eagles game, Colts and yesterday.
All could have and should have been wins.
This defense needs an injection of talent across the board.
There aren't many players that started this year that I would keep for next season.
let's also not forget the Defense hung on for Dear Life to ekk out wins vs the Bucs and Bears...
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This line of thinking really isn't logical.
If we had taken Sam Darnold instead, you remove Saquon Barkley from the equation and almost are certainly looking at the same record (or worse) and an even less productive offense.
Would you still say the improvement didn't warrant the investment?
What series of offseason moves could have fixed the offense entirely in one offseason?
Some of the expectations for how this thing needed to progress seem very unrealistic. It's like just because Barkley and Hernandez didn't turn the Giants into a top 5 offense overnight, they weren't worth the investment.
Do you really think Hernandez was a wasted pick because the offense still needs to get better? I don't understand that at all.
No, the line of thinking that isn't logical is the one that believes that the Giants being the highest scoring team in the NFCE means something.
The Redskins lost their starting OL and QB mid season. The Eagles were without their starting QB for most of the year. The Cowboys came in with a flawed roster on O and had to trade the farm for Amari Cooper midway through because of it.
Yet the Giants, with a franchise QB, a ton of money spent on the OL, the 2nd pick overall, a guard drafted high, after having picked on offense high the past couple of years - is still mediocre even on a good day. They needed the weak back end of the schedule and for one of the teams in the division to implode to arrive at this point.
You can say the D is in shambles - but they moved their best pass rusher before the season, moved two defensive starters early on. There's a lot more talent and money invested on the offensive side of the ball, and the returns aren't much better.
What should they have done you're asking? Well - if not Darnold, they should have either moved on from Eli and taken 2018 as a loss, taking the cap hit and clearing the books for 19. If the plan was to move forward with Eli for a couple of seasons, and everyone was apparently convinced that the OL was the #1 reason for the team's inability to score, then they should have drafted Nelson and then another OL high in the 2nd round. The Colts did exactly that, and it fixed their OL.
The Giants strategy is unclear to me - if it wasn't to win this year, I'm not sure how they have a path to anything better next season. And if they come in at 5-11 - 7-9 next season, they're right back where they started - not bad enough for a team changing draft, not good enough to make the playoffs.
I'm almost certain the same people will be singing the same songs at the end of 2019 if the results are what I expect them to be - 'you can't fix all of this in two offseasons or with a bunch of cap money', as if all of a sudden the NFL became the NBA. But hey, we scored more points than the rest of the NFC East - hooray! Go post that on an NFL board without a team affiliation and see how quickly you're laughed out of there.
LOL, well if you're going to assign another posters line of thinking to me, we aren't going to get anywhere.
I didn't post this thread and I don't think the figure means anything. It's not relevant.
The point that is being missed is that virtually every avenue still leads us to where we are right now. Quenton Nelson has been fantastic for IND - he's exactly what they needed.
The Colts have improved so much because...
1. They got their elite, top tier QB back healthy.
2. They hit absolute home runs with both Nelson and Leonard
3. They now have a top 10 defense.
If the Giants had drafted Nelson instead of Barkley, they are still a 5 win team and then I can just use the same argument you are.... the investment didn't amount to more wins, so what was the point?
It doesn't work like that.
I'm not going to keep saying "this needed x amount of years" if we get into years 2, 3 and beyond and still aren't back in the playoffs... but to have expected it to happen in one offseason just was never realistic and I'm not sure why so many posters seem surprised that this was the season we had.
The team was loaded with holes and didn't have enough plugs available to turn a 3 win team into a playoff team in one offseason. It's really as simple as that. Anyone who thought this team was just going to turn around and win 9-10 games was fooling themselves.
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Was 28th in rushing and 22nd in passing success on 3rd down in their own territory.
The defense was worst in the league in rushing success and 5th best in the league in passing success on 3rd down when opponents were in Giants territory.
Yeah, they both ha've work to do as we all saw. To me the defense is way behind.
Exactly. To chest pump that they led the division in points and blame the defense is disengenious.
The defense is further behind but also think its easier and quicker to repair a defense than an offense. Obviously we saw it in 2016 by throwing a ton of money at but a capable edge rusher in the draft and a true FS can get the defense to at least average imo.
The offense will be limited until RT, C, and QB are improved and a true X receiver is found.
Correct. I dont think anyone would deny there were things the offense did better than in 2016 and 2017.
There was more creativity, Barkley gave them some semblance of a rushing attack. They scored more.
Quote:
Yes, I certainly wouldn't want to brag about leading the division in points scored. I only look at it as a possible sign of improvement, nothing more.
Correct. I dont think anyone would deny there were things the offense did better than in 2016 and 2017.
There was more creativity, Barkley gave them some semblance of a rushing attack. They scored more.
👍
He's doing the same bullshit now. WHo the hell cares about the title of his thread by trying to indirectly tie it into Eli? Anyone with half-a-brain can easily see all of Eli's QB ratings are in the lower half of theleague and the were lower than both Wentz and Dak.
Instead this deceptive poster is using "points scored" as a barometer? ANd some poster just like him are agreeing with him? Why use points scored ant QB rating when evaluating a QB? The OP and other Eli fanboys wont do it because it doesnt fit their argument so they choose to ignore it.
These are the ultimate fanboy Eli posters. Their hero can do no wrong. The point of also saying goodbye to Eli from many of us as well is his age, SO please explain why in hell "points scored" in the division matters whle many of us are fearful of getting stuck with no decent QBafter ELi is gone?
eli's Espn QB rating was 26th in the NFL. His PFF QB Rating was 21st. Please explain how that is good to look forward to in future years for a 37 year old QB?
Aj, yep, a play that stuck out to me was against Indy. Man king throws a lateral to Saquon like a designed swing pass though this is designed to be a backward pass, Saquon catches it, sets up to throw before taking off. Talk about keeping the d on their toes. Not to mention all of the different players that receive the ball behind the LOS. It makes it hard for the defense to key on one player
Should be Manning
Quote:
The creativity we showed. Whether its the trick plays, Lauletta lining up at WR, etc.
Aj, yep, a play that stuck out to me was against Indy. Man king throws a lateral to Saquon like a designed swing pass though this is designed to be a backward pass, Saquon catches it, sets up to throw before taking off. Talk about keeping the d on their toes. Not to mention all of the different players that receive the ball behind the LOS. It makes it hard for the defense to key on one player
Id like to see Odell lined up in the backfield next year with Saqoun. Maybe even some direct snaps to Odell where he either hands off to Saquon or play action. Could be dangerous.
at least embrace it. it will make you more endearing.
Thats not exactly fair to Dep, considering that there are a number of people on the other side of the argument who have become a cliche
He's doing the same bullshit now. WHo the hell cares about the title of his thread by trying to indirectly tie it into Eli? Anyone with half-a-brain can easily see all of Eli's QB ratings are in the lower half of theleague and the were lower than both Wentz and Dak.
Instead this deceptive poster is using "points scored" as a barometer? ANd some poster just like him are agreeing with him? Why use points scored ant QB rating when evaluating a QB? The OP and other Eli fanboys wont do it because it doesnt fit their argument so they choose to ignore it.
These are the ultimate fanboy Eli posters. Their hero can do no wrong. The point of also saying goodbye to Eli from many of us as well is his age, SO please explain why in hell "points scored" in the division matters whle many of us are fearful of getting stuck with no decent QBafter ELi is gone?
eli's Espn QB rating was 26th in the NFL. His PFF QB Rating was 21st. Please explain how that is good to look forward to in future years for a 37 year old QB?
Points scored is more important than a meaningless metric rating. Giants improves scoring wise from last year. Hopefully with an upgrade at OL, some health, and less posters like you - our season will be more enjoyable.
But that is probably just me not paying as close attention...
But that is probably just me not paying as close attention...
I understand what you are saying. Its just that this site has become so consumed by the whole QB debate and the Barkley vs. Darnold that its becoming rather stale.
They needed a better defense too?
Giants: 412
Washington: 359
Philly: 348
Dallas: 324
I'd love a RT for the draft but it's looking more and more like pass rusher is the highest need. Regardless, both sides of the line are of the highest need right now.
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You'll find on here. Another thread we had - he tried deliberately to change the narrative of who was better this year Matt Ryan or Eli to who had the better career or better in 1 big game.
He's doing the same bullshit now. WHo the hell cares about the title of his thread by trying to indirectly tie it into Eli? Anyone with half-a-brain can easily see all of Eli's QB ratings are in the lower half of theleague and the were lower than both Wentz and Dak.
Instead this deceptive poster is using "points scored" as a barometer? ANd some poster just like him are agreeing with him? Why use points scored ant QB rating when evaluating a QB? The OP and other Eli fanboys wont do it because it doesnt fit their argument so they choose to ignore it.
These are the ultimate fanboy Eli posters. Their hero can do no wrong. The point of also saying goodbye to Eli from many of us as well is his age, SO please explain why in hell "points scored" in the division matters whle many of us are fearful of getting stuck with no decent QBafter ELi is gone?
eli's Espn QB rating was 26th in the NFL. His PFF QB Rating was 21st. Please explain how that is good to look forward to in future years for a 37 year old QB?
Points scored is more important than a meaningless metric rating. Giants improves scoring wise from last year. Hopefully with an upgrade at OL, some health, and less posters like you - our season will be more enjoyable.
Notwhen you are trying to build up EL you have to look at individual satts too. WHen you don;t look at individual stats and just the team stats and then try to indirectly show your love for Eli -- it turns you into a an idiot.
I find your pathetic homerism shameful. I think there should be fair discussions on here- instead posters like you that are so in love with a player that you definitely look to misrersesent things is shameful. Just grow up.
Looking to totally ignore individual stats is what a 2 year old kid would do in order to protect their hero if the stats don't support. You act that way like a 2 year old with every post regarding Eli. It's pathetic.
For exmaplelast year wiht you and the Giants offense stinking it was all about "the other players." Now this year it's all about "team." No offense- maybe their is-- IMO you're the type of fan I get most disgsusted with-- a hero-worshipping fan that hasn't adjusted to being an adult.
Problem is - I'm not sure it would have worked as well for the Giants for a few reasons.
1. It would mean no Will Hernandez - so, remove one of the only guys on the OL who seems to be worth a shit right now.
2. In addition, we would have less assets because we'd have needed to trade up to get Jackson
3. We don't have the defense Baltimore does. You can't play the run-heavy, ball control offense they're playing if you're in catch up mode. You have to have a defense good enough to let you dictate play and TOP for that to work.
I think the needs are obvious here and it's going to take a really good draft and much better FA period than we just had.
Add in the sunk Eli cost for 2 years too. Its something I would have been excited to see but timing wise it just couldnt happen even if they wanted to go this route.
Ridiculous
TC was scapegoated too, how did that work out?
Giants: 412
Washington: 359
Philly: 348
Dallas: 324
I'd love a RT for the draft but it's looking more and more like pass rusher is the highest need. Regardless, both sides of the line are of the highest need right now.
If the Giants cut Eli and get a mobile QB we don't need a defense.
Two playoff teams
Whatever that's worth
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Points scored is a thoroughly misleading stat just like saying the giants scoring the most points in the division is a meaningless stat. The division was horrible this year. The cowboys traded a first round pick because their offense was broken. The eagles and Redskins had QB injuries and RB injuries. It was a division of broken offenses, and we were the best of bad offenses.
Two playoff teams
Whatever that's worth
Division winners have to make it by default regardless of how bad their offense is.
Ridiculous
TC was scapegoated too, how did that work out?
You think I meant every Eli fan is fanboy-homer? I'm an Eli fan. ButI think you missed my context. I brought up an example to him-- who do you think was better this year Matt Ryan or Eli? WHo is the better Qb going forward (not career)?
I's sokay to be an Eli fan and not have to kiss his feet, right?
It had been a few years and I wondered if Eli & Co. knew they were supposed to do so...
But that is probably just me not paying as close attention...
Well LG, Im afraid Im forced to name 2. One doesnt live in this country and the other noted above that the offense got better when we started playing against backup quarterbacks. Maybe it was a typo and he meant backup cornerbacks. Coulda been...
Christ.
Christ.
And that's because Eli Manning is so much better than Matt Ryan:
QB Rating
Matt Ryan: 108.1
Eli Manning: 92.4
Completions
Matt Ryan: 422
Eli Manning: 380
Attempts
Matt Ryan: 608
Eli Manning: 576
Pct. Completion
Matt Ryan: 69.4
Eli Manning: 66.0
Passing Yardage
Matt Ryan: 4,924
Eli Manning: 4,299
Passing Yards per Attempt
Matt Ryan: 8.1
Eli Manning: 7.5
TDs / INTs
Matt Ryan: 35 / 7
Eli Manning: 21 / 11
Bottom line is Eli could once carry the team as he did in 2011. Yes, Eli did carry that team into the playoffs and continued his great play into the playoffs. It doesn't look like he can do that anymore. Does he have to carry the team now? Looks like Barkley can do that with a good run game. Also, as they haven't made the playoffs, I'm not sure he can step up as he's done in the past during the post-season either. He is neither part of the solution or part of the problem. He is average right now. Still capable of making some amazing throws but it does appear that the game is getting faster on him (as opposed to wanting to hear rookies say how the game is slowing down for them). I don't see a decline in his arm. He's never been mobile. It's just the game seems to be moving faster on him now. He's still better than all the other current options out there though.
Until the Giants find that next level QB (the heir apparent if you will) the conversation is mute. I, for one, don't want to gamble draft picks on a maybe. 2020 looks like the best opportunity to take a shot at a QB. I'm not liking the 2019 draft class and didn't like the 2018 draft class either. Except for maybe Foles (big maybe), I'm not liking the FA class either (Foles can opt out of his contract so kind of like a FA). I think he's gonna grab a big contract next season so not worth it for the Giants. In 2020, draft the next QB. Sell the farm if you have to but that's when to draft a QB. Until then, the debate will never end. Hell, it will go on for years after they replace Eli.
You forgot that stat M.S.
I remember all offseason people praising Kirk Cousins and his amazing stats. Howd that turn out?
Bottom line is Eli could once carry the team as he did in 2011. Yes, Eli did carry that team into the playoffs and continued his great play into the playoffs. It doesn't look like he can do that anymore. Does he have to carry the team now? Looks like Barkley can do that with a good run game. Also, as they haven't made the playoffs, I'm not sure he can step up as he's done in the past during the post-season either. He is neither part of the solution or part of the problem. He is average right now. Still capable of making some amazing throws but it does appear that the game is getting faster on him (as opposed to wanting to hear rookies say how the game is slowing down for them). I don't see a decline in his arm. He's never been mobile. It's just the game seems to be moving faster on him now. He's still better than all the other current options out there though.
Until the Giants find that next level QB (the heir apparent if you will) the conversation is mute. I, for one, don't want to gamble draft picks on a maybe. 2020 looks like the best opportunity to take a shot at a QB. I'm not liking the 2019 draft class and didn't like the 2018 draft class either. Except for maybe Foles (big maybe), I'm not liking the FA class either (Foles can opt out of his contract so kind of like a FA). I think he's gonna grab a big contract next season so not worth it for the Giants. In 2020, draft the next QB. Sell the farm if you have to but that's when to draft a QB. Until then, the debate will never end. Hell, it will go on for years after they replace Eli.
USAF -- I'm a homer fan too. I love Eli hope / feel he deserves HOF.
BUT-- THIS GUY - THO EOP I'm speaking of- and anyone else who thinks eli right now is better than Matt Ryan now and in the futrue -- c'mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER.
Add that to -- ONLY LOOKING AT POINTS SCORED and COMPLETELY DISREGARDING INDIVIDUAL QB stats - then c;mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER. Looking to apoints scored vs QBR isn't just a 50-50 comparison. It's just so wrong to do look at points scored. Its not even close to being fair. Why have a QBRating?
-------
If your name suggests you served in the service USAF God Bless you and thank you for your service. Wihtthat said - I mean wiht total respect here - if you think what the OP is doing by being defiant about eli over Ryan and using "points scored" over QBR then I'm sorry you have gone off the reservation.
And as for trading up in 2020 we can respectfully agree to disagree. This team is devoid of talent at many positions. To have to trade talent away to get a Qb when we could possibly get a very good QB in 2019 such as Haskins (if Gmen feel he is good and if he comes out ofc) imo is an enormous blunder. We are depleting assets for a team that can't afford to do it. IMO that's an enormous blunder.
I heard once a GM say in baseball (I recognize its different than in football) thet he blundered by trying to build "the super team." To try for that super qb in 2020 by expending future assets which right now this team is devoid of rather than grab a solid QB in which you protect your future assets (draft picks) is the better play.
I realize you might not think Haskins is the guy but are you looking at him in terms of being super and because you dont think he is super he isn't worth it, or do you think he and the other QB's such as Jones just are average-at-best for the future?
Further- if you assess the Gmen next year and don't think they can be a contender next year -- what is ELi giving you? A few more wins to what end? Why not look to build as soons as possible with as much money as possible in order to enhance "the limited life" of a rb such as Barkley?
You forgot that stat M.S.
I remember all offseason people praising Kirk Cousins and his amazing stats. Howd that turn out?
QB Rating
Kirk Cousins: 99.7
Eli Manning: 92.4
Completions
MKirk Cousins: 425
Eli Manning: 380
Attempts
Kirk Cousins: 606
Eli Manning: 576
Pct. Completion
Kirk Cousins: 70.1
Eli Manning: 66.0
Passing Yardage
Kirk Cousins: 4,298
Eli Manning: 4,299
Passing Yards per Attempt
Kirk Cousins: 7.1
Eli Manning: 7.5
TDs / INTs
Kirk Cousins: 30 / 10
Eli Manning: 21 / 11
Good lord.
Good lord.
Hit the liquor too early, *Ryan
Ill await the results from your abacus.
Quote:
USAF -- I'm a homer fan too. I love Eli hope / feel he deserves HOF.
BUT-- THIS GUY - THO EOP I'm speaking of- and anyone else who thinks eli right now is better than Matt Ryan now and in the futrue -- c'mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER.
Add that to -- ONLY LOOKING AT POINTS SCORED and COMPLETELY DISREGARDING INDIVIDUAL QB stats - then c;mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER. Looking to apoints scored vs QBR isn't just a 50-50 comparison. It's just so wrong to do look at points scored. Its not even close to being fair. Why have a QBRating?
-------
If your name suggests you served in the service USAF God Bless you and thank you for your service. Wihtthat said - I mean wiht total respect here - if you think what the OP is doing by being defiant about eli over Ryan and using "points scored" over QBR then I'm sorry you have gone off the reservation.
And as for trading up in 2020 we can respectfully agree to disagree. This team is devoid of talent at many positions. To have to trade talent away to get a Qb when we could possibly get a very good QB in 2019 such as Haskins (if Gmen feel he is good and if he comes out ofc) imo is an enormous blunder. We are depleting assets for a team that can't afford to do it. IMO that's an enormous blunder.
I heard once a GM say in baseball (I recognize its different than in football) thet he blundered by trying to build "the super team." To try for that super qb in 2020 by expending future assets which right now this team is devoid of rather than grab a solid QB in which you protect your future assets (draft picks) is the better play.
I realize you might not think Haskins is the guy but are you looking at him in terms of being super and because you dont think he is super he isn't worth it, or do you think he and the other QB's such as Jones just are average-at-best for the future?
Further- if you assess the Gmen next year and don't think they can be a contender next year -- what is ELi giving you? A few more wins to what end? Why not look to build as soons as possible with as much money as possible in order to enhance "the limited life" of a rb such as Barkley?
It's completely ok that you disagree with me about Haskins. That's what we do in forums. I just don't think he has it. You can disagree with me about anything you like. What matters is what the Giants think. If they back Haskins or any other QB in 2019, I'll hope for the best. I just don't see it and I'm not alone. The majority of scouts and most of BBI here seem to think 2020 is a far better year for QBs.
As to disagreeing about selling out for the QB they want, they did that for Eli in the first place. Eagles did it for Wentz. I think there are a lot of holes to fill too which is why I don't want to waste picks. The Giants will enter QB hell and many think they are already there. There's multiple ways to handle it and still be in it. You can stay with a bad QB (I'm not saying Eli is bad) and not take chances in the draft or FA. Another way is to keep drafting busts at QB. I think it's better to improve the team around the QB while waiting for the closest sure thing they can draft. It's very rare to go from franchise QB to franchise QB. Favre to Rogers, Peyton to Luck, Montana to Young, etc. The odds of pulling that off are not in the Giants favor and the odds improve if you build a team that makes the QBs job easier. A better pass blocking OL and/or a better run blocking OL is a QBs best friend. Is Dak any good are does he benefit from a good to great OL? Does he benefit from a great run game? As a result, Dak is developing. Still don't think he will amount to much but he's got good pieces around him. If he started behind the Giants' OL, he'd probably be considered a bust by now. If another Andrew Luck comes along (who was considered a sure thing when drafted), yes you go all in. Sacrifice some picks for a game changer. I think they can/will patch a lot of holes in 2019 and will have more money for 2020's FAs since they now have a rookie QB. Again, just my opinion.
As to individual stats, for me it depends on the specific stat. You won't like it but I think QBR is the worst stat in all of sports. Too many variable are included already and it lacks many others that can't be calculated. I felt this way before Eli Manning and I'll feel that way after Eli Manning. For example, I felt Eli had 1 elite year (2011). People seem to forget he dragged that team (with a terrible defense and the worst rush offense in the league) to the playoffs. His rate in 2011 was 92.9. His rate in 2018 is 92.4. Just in case you think it's a different time now than then; The highest rate player in 2011 was Drew Brees at 110.6. The highest rated player now is Drew Brees at 115.7. Not a substantial increase. Looking at all of the other stats, Eli is average and in many cases, slightly above average.
As to the team stats, yes I think team stats are very telling. I don't think it's any surprise that once the OL improved, the run game improved. Then, in turn, the passing offense improved as well. Giants suddenly got more competitive after the bye (changes on the OL). If you notice, I also posted the stat that shows the defense allowed the most points of any other team in the NFC East as well. This is a very poor defense we are talking about. They are the 24th ranked defense. I am 100% sure that a better defense would have the Giants in the playoffs right now. The defense blew way too many leads this year and for me, the pass rush just has to improve to be more competitive.
I honestly believe that a great ER, an average RT, an average C, and the 2nd year in this new offense and defense make this a team with a winning record. Hold on to those players and get your QB the following year. I think the team is 2-3 years out of being legit contenders if Gettleman can play the FA and the draft right. If you play QB roulette, it will take longer and you will lose the good to great players in the process.
His qbr espn rating was top 5 in 11, terrible today.
this is consistent with the eyeball test as well.
we use aggregate stats yet dog these ratings when they often describe roughly (not absolutely) with some accuracy......
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
Seconded
Quote:
This year, next year, or any year.
Christ.
And that's because Eli Manning is so much better than Matt Ryan:
QB Rating
Matt Ryan: 108.1
Eli Manning: 92.4
Completions
Matt Ryan: 422
Eli Manning: 380
Attempts
Matt Ryan: 608
Eli Manning: 576
Pct. Completion
Matt Ryan: 69.4
Eli Manning: 66.0
Passing Yardage
Matt Ryan: 4,924
Eli Manning: 4,299
Passing Yards per Attempt
Matt Ryan: 8.1
Eli Manning: 7.5
TDs / INTs
Matt Ryan: 35 / 7
Eli Manning: 21 / 11
Matf Ryan does play half his games in a dome
No because they had the best defense in the NFL. More possessions, shorter fields...
Our defense was absolute putrid and has been for years outside of 2016. At some point you have to fix that as well.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
To your comment about the super running back...I would argue that the ability to run has been the missing element for a while. I think if you look back two years, the Giants scored like 6 rushing TDs. The last two seasons, our rushing game couldnt function against cover 2 and dime defenses. The run game was sparked first by Barkley, then the run and pass games took another step forward by shoring up the right guard position. That created a run game that rightfully elevated both the run and the pass by opening play action and forcing defenses to respect the run.
Its not surprising that going from zero run threat to a formidable one nade the difference. It would for any offense.
Quote:
You're right that its okay to disagree that why we've been cordial. we're doing it.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
To your comment about the super running back...I would argue that the ability to run has been the missing element for a while. I think if you look back two years, the Giants scored like 6 rushing TDs. The last two seasons, our rushing game couldnt function against cover 2 and dime defenses. The run game was sparked first by Barkley, then the run and pass games took another step forward by shoring up the right guard position. That created a run game that rightfully elevated both the run and the pass by opening play action and forcing defenses to respect the run.
Its not surprising that going from zero run threat to a formidable one nade the difference. It would for any offense.
so the way the OP made it sound that is was a lot ot do with ELi - how much you htink?Equal? I don't.
ANd some of those holes Barkley busted how many rb;s would?
Wouldn't there have been a lot more qb;s that could have duplicated or exceeded what ELi did more tha likely?
If so what would be the best way to quantify it? Through the QB ratings even though they aren't that great?
Though its better than "points scored" correct? ISn't "points scored" laughable?
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. Its been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
welcome to the next 6 months.
This thread was necessary.
The key stat is 5-11.
You will never accept that the biggest problems on this team in order:
Defense at all levels starting with the LBs and ERs all the way to the secondary.
Oline.
How can you not see that?
djm : 11:10 pm : link : reply
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. Its been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
After every loss, there are literally several posters who blame Eli regardless of the way the game unfolded. He either scored too early that allowed another team to come back or he didn't see a open WR and settled for a FG prior to the D letting up a losing drive.
And they say ridiculous things like "He's the only constant" or "he's the reason the team hasn't scored 30+ points in over a year".
Then, he goes out and helps the team break 30 points several times this year in a different offense and so other complaints come out like he's gunshy and immobile.
Meanwhile, the D just let up their 5th game-losing drive of the year after the offense took the lead.
Sounds logical to keep blaming Eli after every loss....
We gave up over a point per gsme this year than last year.
We gave up 6 game losing or game tying drives this year alone. Losing 4 of them.
We were 26th in the NFL in 3rd down conversion on defense
We were last in the NFL in 4th down conversions (14 out of 17!!!!!)
We were tied for next to last in sacks
I am not sure what context this falls into... but to me... its really really fucking bad. And this isnt to say our offense was great or we cant imrpove. Our defense is fucking deplorable. And it was from game 2 of the year.
The sake of winning what? ANd the fact it won;t be so easy means you have to start as soon as you when you stink- meaning the moRe you are to .500 you can't get that very good-to-terrific QB unless you blunder and dramatically trade p in which the Gmen dont have the add'l personnel to make that successful. You're happy happy going 8-8 next year year then each year watch your starting QB decline as he;s doing right now before your eyes?
You are taking a short term gain with little concern for the long haul.
I think many of you are very naive on trading up and/or think it will be so simple to get the 2020 QB's.
**Further after you get the young QB it's going to take him 1 year to adjust. Juts because he puts on a Giants uniform won't make him superman. How is delaying a year for Barkley who has limited years because of a RB helpful?
Quote:
It took a while
djm : 11:10 pm : link : reply
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. Its been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
After every loss, there are literally several posters who blame Eli regardless of the way the game unfolded. He either scored too early that allowed another team to come back or he didn't see a open WR and settled for a FG prior to the D letting up a losing drive.
And they say ridiculous things like "He's the only constant" or "he's the reason the team hasn't scored 30+ points in over a year".
Then, he goes out and helps the team break 30 points several times this year in a different offense and so other complaints come out like he's gunshy and immobile.
Meanwhile, the D just let up their 5th game-losing drive of the year after the offense took the lead.
Sounds logical to keep blaming Eli after every loss....
after every loss there are posters for example the dude that started this thread that won't blame Eli for a thing. SO many apologists for eli. His QB rating is terrible and you have people agreeing with his silly
"points scored" argument. It;s laughable the fanboy-homerism for ELi.
Try explaining to any statistician that "points scored" is any way to accurately measure a QB and you'll gt them to cry laughing at the absurdity. This is the same guy who thinks ELi right now is better than matt Ryan.
We gave up over a point per gsme this year than last year.
We gave up 6 game losing or game tying drives this year alone. Losing 4 of them.
We were 26th in the NFL in 3rd down conversion on defense
We were last in the NFL in 4th down conversions (14 out of 17!!!!!)
We were tied for next to last in sacks
I am not sure what context this falls into... but to me... its really really fucking bad. And this isnt to say our offense was great or we cant imrpove. Our defense is fucking deplorable. And it was from game 2 of the year.
The same bullshit Reese said after 2014 thinking the Oline was fixed. The same nonsense that you ignore thta we beat backup QB's which skwerd the numbers. The same bullshit that you cant grasp that guys like ELi get old and their play eventually suffers. The same bullshit you choose ot ignore when the QB rating stats show you he is subpar but yet you try to sneak the conversation into comparing last year. The same bullshit that you can;t comprehend that it isn;t easy to replace a QB so you choose ot ignore all the signs. Yeah thats smart. Is that you Jerry reese?
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. Its been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
They won 11 games dragging the offense by the hair. That defense had to play until it was pissing blood and punch drunk. Let's absolutely not frame this as if defense has been the missing link with the franchise, because that's goddamn dishonest.
New York Giants 27 at Indianapolis Colts 28
The Giants struggled to run the ball and were without Odell Beckham, but Eli Manning came to life in one of his best games of the season. Not many would have expected that with the Colts still having the postseason to play for, but the Giants had leads of 14-0, 24-14, and 27-21 on the day. There was a chance to put together a great drive to run out the clock, but backed up in their own end, the Giants stuck with Saquon Barkley on the ground and were fortunate to get a forward progress call to negate a potential fumble.
That three-and-out led to Andrew Luck only needing 53 yards to drive for the go-ahead touchdown in the final 3:43. Things never got too difficult for the Colts on the drive, but the Giants hurt themselves with two penalties on plays where they didn't even need to make contact with the receivers. After getting a first-and-goal at the 1, Luck threw a touchdown pass to Chester Rogers on a natural pick play with 55 seconds left. Adam Vinatieri hit the go-ahead extra point for the Colts' first and only lead of the day.
You give Andrew Luck a short field because you can't run the clock out with the same offense that ripped up and down the field all day, then trash the defense, full of replacement players, for not pulling a rabbit out of a hat against a top-level quarterback.
Dallas Cowboys 36 at New York Giants 35
Normally, 1:12 would be a little too early to go for a two-or-die, but these were special circumstances. Prescott made the pass work to Michael Gallup, and the Cowboys led 36-35. However, a taunting penalty threatened to end Dallas' celebration quickly. That led to a short kickoff that the Giants returned to their own 48, leaving Eli Manning in great position to lead a game-winning field goal drive. But like last week in Indianapolis when the Giants trailed by a single point, Manning was unable to move the offense. He threw four incompletions in a row, with Cody Latimer unable to come down with the ball on fourth-and-10. The Giants finished 2-7 at game-winning drive opportunities this season. Prescott has as many game-winning drives (14) in his three-year career as Manning has led in the last six seasons combined.
We can go back and forth over who you want to blame for the 'close games losses', but right here are two incidents of the offense failing to take a W that was on the table. Even with a bad defense. They didn't even need touchdowns here. They just had to get to reasonable field position.
His qbr espn rating was top 5 in 11, terrible today.
this is consistent with the eyeball test as well.
we use aggregate stats yet dog these ratings when they often describe roughly (not absolutely) with some accuracy......
I stand by what I posted. QBR is the worst stat in all of sports. Always has been, always will be. I don't care which version of QBR (ESPNs QBR or the old school passer rating) is used. The very version you are referring to started in 2011, true enough. However it was modified in 2012 and then again in 2013. The simple fact that they have multiple versions of it and/or different modifications to it should tell you something.
It's a BS stat. Always has been and always will be.
As to the eyeball test, that's subjective to the owner of the eyeball. I've already stated that the only decline in Eli's play I see is that the game is getting faster on him. That does happen to be a significant issue. I don't see less zip on the ball. I don't see less mobility because he never had any in the first place. I don't see him making or missing the tough throws any more or less than he did before. I do see the game getting faster on him (or he's not thinking fast enough). It could be from several years behind a shit OL. It could be a decline from age. It could be learning his 3rd new system. Maybe it's a combination of all three. That's what my eyeball sees.
New York Giants 27 at Indianapolis Colts 28
The Giants struggled to run the ball and were without Odell Beckham, but Eli Manning came to life in one of his best games of the season. Not many would have expected that with the Colts still having the postseason to play for, but the Giants had leads of 14-0, 24-14, and 27-21 on the day. There was a chance to put together a great drive to run out the clock, but backed up in their own end, the Giants stuck with Saquon Barkley on the ground and were fortunate to get a forward progress call to negate a potential fumble.
That three-and-out led to Andrew Luck only needing 53 yards to drive for the go-ahead touchdown in the final 3:43. Things never got too difficult for the Colts on the drive, but the Giants hurt themselves with two penalties on plays where they didn't even need to make contact with the receivers. After getting a first-and-goal at the 1, Luck threw a touchdown pass to Chester Rogers on a natural pick play with 55 seconds left. Adam Vinatieri hit the go-ahead extra point for the Colts' first and only lead of the day.
You give Andrew Luck a short field because you can't run the clock out with the same offense that ripped up and down the field all day, then trash the defense, full of replacement players, for not pulling a rabbit out of a hat against a top-level quarterback.
Dallas Cowboys 36 at New York Giants 35
Normally, 1:12 would be a little too early to go for a two-or-die, but these were special circumstances. Prescott made the pass work to Michael Gallup, and the Cowboys led 36-35. However, a taunting penalty threatened to end Dallas' celebration quickly. That led to a short kickoff that the Giants returned to their own 48, leaving Eli Manning in great position to lead a game-winning field goal drive. But like last week in Indianapolis when the Giants trailed by a single point, Manning was unable to move the offense. He threw four incompletions in a row, with Cody Latimer unable to come down with the ball on fourth-and-10. The Giants finished 2-7 at game-winning drive opportunities this season. Prescott has as many game-winning drives (14) in his three-year career as Manning has led in the last six seasons combined.
We can go back and forth over who you want to blame for the 'close games losses', but right here are two incidents of the offense failing to take a W that was on the table. Even with a bad defense. They didn't even need touchdowns here. They just had to get to reasonable field position.
How dare you blame Eli - for anything. Every one of his passes should have been caught. The Wr's must've ran the wrong routes no doubt.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
I never said points scored is more accurate than QBRating but since I think QBRating is a BS stat, sure I think "points scored" in context to the rest of the division is more telling. However, that's not the stat that I posted. The stat that I posted showed that the Giants defense allowed the most points in the division. I've seen this same argument when comparing Eli Manning to Big Ben and Rivers. I'm sorry but the fact that both Rivers and Big Ben have had, on average (and it's not even close), better defenses and run games than Eli Manning over the course of their careers is very very important to factor in. Also, sorry, but I won't be forced into a cherry-picked generalization with Bortles as a comparison.
I'm not directly suggesting bringing back Eli because he's some great QB. I'm suggesting that's the best option they have. If the Giants think a better option is there for 2019 and they go for it, I'll support my team and hope for the best. What I said was I don't want to play QB roulette with our top draft picks on maybe QBs. I'll hang with Eli for another year. I probably said it in a different thread but I think the team can make the playoffs next year with a great pass rusher, an above average RT and average OC.
As to my examples, I picked two random examples off the top of my head. There are others. My point is the Giants don't already have Rogers sitting on their bench like the Packers did waiting on Favre to retire. 49ers already had Young. The Colts "sucked for Luck". I don't know you but were you around to watch through the wait between Simms and Eli. It was a whole bunch of missed draft picks and half measures. You bet against the house and the house wins most of the time. That's just the way it is. I'll at least wait for a decent hand before I put any significant amount of chips in. When I'm real confident in my hand, I go all in. None of the QBs last year were worth a 2nd (i.e. Barkley was/is). None of the QBs in 2019 are worth a 6th IMHO but I will have faith in Gettleman if he chooses otherwise.
As for the GM never trading down, it's getting annoying reading this. He's had what, 5 different drafts to work with so far. It hasn't occurred to anyone that he just hasn't come across a good opportunity to do so yet. I read the same thing here about Reese not drafting a RB in the 1st round. Then Reese drafted Wilson. I would hope Gettleman learned some things since his last GM stint and he's only drafted for the Giants once so far (of which btw I feel he did an excellent job). In case you haven't noticed, he's already compiled himself quite of few extra draft picks for 2019 which gives him a lot of options (even lower rounds). Might be able to roll some of the picks over to 2020. Maybe even pick up some more for 2020. Point is, he is creating more options for himself. I don't think he plans on staying pat with his extra 4th, 5th, and 7th round picks.
For most people I think the sensible thing to realize is the Giants are looking for a QB. Maybe not to start next year but Eli isnt gonna be around in a few years.
Eli hasnt been the main problem with the team, if you think that you are going too far, but I think he is part of the problem. We need to really change things up because 8 wins in 2 years is pathetic. Going back further it doesnt really look that much better. The Giants need to get more from the QB position, as do a lot of teams.
Its safe to say that unless Eli retires he will most likely be the starter for 2019. If you root for him to play poorly or look past things that are his fault all you are doing is driving yourself crazy. Hes had a good career with the Giants and I have been happy to cheer for him, but things like he deserves respect, and all the sentimentality that goes around doesnt make our team better.
For most people I think the sensible thing to realize is the Giants are looking for a QB. Maybe not to start next year but Eli isnt gonna be around in a few years.
Eli hasnt been the main problem with the team, if you think that you are going too far, but I think he is part of the problem. We need to really change things up because 8 wins in 2 years is pathetic. Going back further it doesnt really look that much better. The Giants need to get more from the QB position, as do a lot of teams.
Its safe to say that unless Eli retires he will most likely be the starter for 2019. If you root for him to play poorly or look past things that are his fault all you are doing is driving yourself crazy. Hes had a good career with the Giants and I have been happy to cheer for him, but things like he deserves respect, and all the sentimentality that goes around doesnt make our team better.
Its too late to write my response to USAF (I'll write him something over relief then more much later)and to you but as far as your point you are misconstruing mine. I never said eli was the number 1 reason. It's the thread thatI conmplained about and the absurdity of using "points scored" and now it's gone to between USAF and I - he seems to think list has some validity. I'll respond to that - I dont want to post direct to yo what I'm going to sya to him.
But don't misreprseent my points. My points were that theOP is an eli-fanboy that uses every excuse to excuse Eli. Do you really think "points scored" has validity in giving Eli all thecredit as the op seems to suggest? If you are fair -- wouldn't ti stand ot reason that each situation is different and sometimes it can be a super RB or super wr or a super OLine. The op always makes his points about Eli.
Plus what type of morn thinks this year and in the future eli is better than Matt ryan for a season?
So all of this means I'm a poster who blames him for everything/ I don't. I just believe if Haskins is high up and is close to the other guys you got to take him. My view he looks good so does Bleacher report, walter Camp, Sb Nation, NBC sports, Sporting News, Mel Kiper, Fotballmaven, Thunderdogpsorts. - ANd Pro football weekly had an article in October saying hsi stock was rising as the 1st qb to be taken only after 6 games but the writer expressed caution that he had to see more. SO he didnt assign a number but so far he's been off thecharts.
SO I ihave to listen ot bullshit form the OP about the absurdity of points scored and I have yet to see much bad press that Haskins wont be a top ten pick instead I her stuff that supposedly "anyways" think he should stay which is basically said by those that imo desperately want to keep Eli. Otherwise show the articles - I can provide all the links I just told you.
does this mean I'm blamming Eli for everything? I'm just disagreeing with those that seem to want to give eli what I feel an enormous pass along with I feel a QB should be taken 1st as a priority if the QB is near the rating of the 6th pick.
ALso I'm very happy with Eli's career.
I see you made a comment about "being annoyed" with my comment of DG doesn't trade down. It's our 1st "annoyance" of one another's posts. I mean this with respect; I don't care that you are annoyed.IMO if you want to close your eyes on the past and says it's he hasn't had the oportunity and ignore data just as you ignore the QBR data thats your business. Bu I suppose many of us are going to keep "annoying you" until he shows the creativity to do it.
But as i posted on another thread a while back in which I hammered DG - I brought up that I dont think the guy has shown the creativity to be other than blunt instrument. His projection of the team to be a winning team this year was absurd just as he was joking / putting down analytics.
Until he shows me I don't assume - because I don think he's very bright. So if I dont think hes veyr bright -- you being annoyed any tome I or someone else mentions he hasnt traded down means nothing. You can mention "tommorrow" or "another day" you are annoyed by this if I say it-- but i don't care. Only a blunt instrument would probably lok at 2016 at 11-5 then the next year then assume the team will be wining again. Any goofball can claim that after 2016 and think his hogmollie laugh at analytics style way will turn it around instead of doing adequate due diligence. IMO its more creative to walk others through why it wasn't going to happen.
Further, in part I disagree with nearly everything you said. We are G-men fans but with your "eyeball test" and "points scored pov" i htink is nothing more that "witch doctor analysis" - thus imo you look at nearly everything wrong. It doesn;t matter. w dont make the decisions anyways but I'll also add the QB rating is in part quantifying your eyeball test of Eli which is why I think you're wrong about QBR there too. No projection stat evaluating who is best is perfect. But its a lot better that points scored. As staed you or anyoen else cant account for the super rb or super wr or ol - you can;t quantify it. Then the OP just goes off and pretends it's about Eli and it seems like you are agreeing with him -- but you havent come out either way. It;s juts so wrong to think it's all Eli as the OP seems intent on doing. If he didnt let him come out and say it. That he doesnt know how much was Eli. Nor do you. Nor od i. I dont think it;s as much as the OP though.
As we get older we also down in many areas as Eli has.
I wonder if our "friend" the OP can even accept that.
"points scored" argument. It;s laughable the fanboy-homerism for ELi.
Try explaining to any statistician that "points scored" is any way to accurately measure a QB and you'll gt them to cry laughing at the absurdity. This is the same guy who thinks ELi right now is better than matt Ryan.
Can you really point to any posters who don't think Eli is part of the problem?
We are a bad football team and have been for some time. Everyone deserves to shoulder a portion of the blame.
I think part of the reason you see support for Eli isn't just because he's the starting QB for the team we root for, but because of the over-the-top commentary after almost any loss. When you have a particular poster who uses terms like the Cult of Eli or eli fanboys in nearly every one of his posts, it is easy to see why you would have people respond to refute that fucking drivel.
I don't think I can name a single poster who thinks Eli is above blame or that he hasn't contributed to the poor seasons. I can find several posters who truly believe that eli is the root of the problem
People say I cherry pick stats? GTFO. When people start using QBR as a mean to judge the offense over points fucking scored... you know an agenda is being pushed.
But only if we had Matt Ryan.... LMFAO.
People say I cherry pick stats? GTFO. When people start using QBR as a mean to judge the offense over points fucking scored... you know an agenda is being pushed.
But only if we had Matt Ryan.... LMFAO.
While you do certainly have a point on the defensive side,(but you and every fan knew what would happen there), failing to move the team 1 yard while at midfield with 72 seconds and 2 TOs is pretty lame. It was a drive teed up for success and I absolutely thought he would get it done. They only needed 15-20 yards.
However it was actually a good thing. Probably gained 4 spots in the draft.
35 points... thirty-five!!!! People just assume that since you need only x amount of yards that its so easy to get. Remember Be against Denver? Brady against Pitt? Baker last week against Baltimore? Ben against the Saints?
Offenses arent guaranteed to score just because you have good field position or just need a FG.
The fact that some posters here dont wanna admit is that we have much bigger holes to fill than QB. And they refuse to see it. We all know Eli isnt the best QB anymore but with an average defense.... we could have made the playoffs this year.
Giantstock, I'm not annoyed with you specifically as several people say the same thing. I also get annoyed when people say that Eli didn't earn his SB MVPs because the defense won those. it's simply wrong. As to you claiming you are not assuming Gettleman is willing to trade back because he hasn't done it before is, in fact, an assumption. You are assuming he won't trade back because he's never done it before but he hasn't even had that many opportunities to do so. I still believe Gettleman is capable of making any available decision during the draft and is open to all options. I'm not making the assumption, you are. If there was some kind of legitimate evidence to support that Gettleman doesn't consider trade downs, you might have something. Simply not doing it yet does not a case make. It's like saying if you rolled a couple dice 5 times and never got snake eyes, you never will. This is a logical fallacy. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Additionally, you continue to be stuck on this point scored thing. Like I believe this be some all great measurement. All I'm saying is it does matter. It does say something. You make it sound like I think it's the most important stat in the world. I'll remind you for the last time that I followed up with the defense allowing more points stat as I thought that was more telling. You seem to be having trouble getting past that point. You're the one fixated on it. I'm not. If you think that a team's OL doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think that a team's defense doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the run game doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the game plan doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think penalties doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think etc. etc. etc. Now, how much of that information really goes into the QBR?
As to Dep, yea, he's Eli's biggest defender on here and I don't fault him for that. There are just as many on the opposite side that constantly bash Eli that you seem to discount. It's gotten ridiculous on both sides of that coin. I'm thankful to Dep on occasions when someone post something ridiculous about Eli (i.e. Eli didn't win the SBs, the defense did) because I get ready to post and then say to myself, nah, Dep will get this. I'm saying it's funny because people miss the fact that the team did improve this year. The arrow is pointed up. Shurmer and Gettleman are making moves and seeing what they have for the future. Trying different things. They just don't see a better QB available yet. All these posters demanding a change at QB that either don't back it up with another legit option, want to gamble away a top pick on a maybe, or recommend worse alternatives. So many people on here are so blinded by the Eli Manning debate that they can't see the forest through the trees. The team will figure this out. They've done so 4 times now which is better than the large majority of the league.
but when a player is ranking mediocre consistenly over the span of a few years, that stat is not typically lying. now there are macro issues affecting the offense so some blame goes to the o line.
i certainly prefer qbr and wins to other aggregate stats used here so often, of course we may not agree.
i do also agree way too much is made out of Eli here regarding his contribution to the losing.
However, regarding the issue of his age and the enormous challenge of finding his replacement this is priority 1a for the giants. This team has stars on the offense and is designed to be great on o. they wont be able to invest in d they was they are on o and the goal will be to upgrade to the point of being respectable. This can reasonably be done with a draft some natural improvement of young players and some free agent signings.
The qb is a much tougher find and i agree with Giantstock here-the Giants have to look at haskins, the pick at 6 is known and will the team be in a position to pick one of the 2020 crop?
Guy hasnt even played 15 games in a system friendly towards QBs for a team that talent level trumped every single team he played.
One thing he did have is almost consistently better teams/supporting cast than Eli has had.
Guy hasnt even played 15 games in a system friendly towards QBs for a team that talent level trumped every single team he played.
Hold off on the swing and miss. How do you know? I'm not a Haskins fan, but I have a friend that played for Michigan and was All Big 10 OG and had a season with the Saints. He said Haskins is the real deal. He also told me Flowers was terrible and would bust when the Giants drafted him.
Now I don't know shit from shinola about rating QBs in college, but saying a kid is a swing and miss after 15 games is as bad as saying he is the real deal. I see no way he could start next year (even if he did declare) as he is likely too green.
dep I do not think QBs need to meet the customary requirements anymore to play in the NFL. They need to be smart, be able to make reads and need to be accurate. But I don't think they need the Manning/Brady criteria anymore - the straight drop back with huge arm. Is that preferred - probably, Sy said it still is. But the Wilson/Mahomes/Mayfield types are the QBs of the future as I see it. Guys that can move easily and make plays. Not the Jackson types that will eventually get hurt and are at best 50% passers.
Anywho, good discussion for a rainy day.
Guy hasnt even played 15 games in a system friendly towards QBs for a team that talent level trumped every single team he played.
The fear of missing is clouding judgements here.
Haskins only having only one year of playing, and a good one, would be the perfect pick if Shurmur is who we hired him to be.
A QB, with tools but limited experience that a supposed QB whisperer can mold.
The Meyer point is a good one. Be interested in what SY says.
Hey, I'm skeptical on all QBs - including all from last year.
Maybe him getting out before Urban messed him up is important (but now that Meyer is gone, maybe he stays).
See how he does tonight. Hope I don't crash before that game.
If thats going to scare you off then we definitely cant take Tua, Fromm or Lawrence. Michigan has one of the best defenses in the country and he absolutely torched them.
Now only is he not coming out, but he wouldnt be even on our radar. He actually regressed. Now that hes off the board - its like we have a new flavor of the month.
At 6, you have to nail the pick. As of right now, the top 6 picks from last year look like home runs and have been projected to be that from the get go.
If thats going to scare you off then we definitely cant take Tua, Fromm or Lawrence. Michigan has one of the best defenses in the country and he absolutely torched them.
And all those QBs were successful for more than 1 year. And didnt play for urban either.
I wouldnt use Michigan as the game to prop Haskins up. Michigan always chokes against teams they arent worlds better than.
They need ER, OT/OL, FS and CB help right away. Even a pass rush LB type if exceptional. I still feel that is what they do. The defense is just garbage and a couple tweaks on the oline would go a long way. OC needs to be a focus too in order to stymie the push up the middle.
Of course until we see what they focus on in FA, there is no way to know the direction DG takes in the draft beofre FA.
They need ER, OT/OL, FS and CB help right away. Even a pass rush LB type if exceptional. I still feel that is what they do. The defense is just garbage and a couple tweaks on the oline would go a long way. OC needs to be a focus too in order to stymie the push up the middle.
Of course until we see what they focus on in FA, there is no way to know the direction DG takes in the draft beofre FA.
I agree. But people here are at the point of...
If we dont draft a QB - its a failure!!! Its maddening.
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Worth a pick at 6? You swing and miss there... you think the last few year have been hell... just wait.
Guy hasnt even played 15 games in a system friendly towards QBs for a team that talent level trumped every single team he played.
The fear of missing is clouding judgements here.
Haskins only having only one year of playing, and a good one, would be the perfect pick if Shurmur is who we hired him to be.
A QB, with tools but limited experience that a supposed QB whisperer can mold.
I don't want a QB who needs a QB whisperer to be good with the 6th overall pick. I want a player.
I can get that kind of QB in later rounds.
it may not be haskins. perhaps they like jones and someone likes haskins and they can trade down. a lot of potential outcomes.
Given the high bust rate at qb, id draft another developmental prospect later at very least.
it may not be haskins. perhaps they like jones and someone likes haskins and they can trade down. a lot of potential outcomes.
Given the high bust rate at qb, id draft another developmental prospect later at very least.
I think its safe to assume if we draft say Jonah Williams, Josh Allen, or Deandre Baker... we are going to have a lot of upset people here. Not everyone who wants a QB change, but a good majority. Just my opinion...
Now I don't know shit from shinola about rating QBs in college, but saying a kid is a swing and miss after 15 games is as bad as saying he is the real deal.
"don't know shit from shinola"
i love it and use it as well with my kids...
Quote:
Play on teams whose talent are way better than most of their opponents. Baker, Darnold, Watson, etc.
If thats going to scare you off then we definitely cant take Tua, Fromm or Lawrence. Michigan has one of the best defenses in the country and he absolutely torched them.
And all those QBs were successful for more than 1 year. And didnt play for urban either.
I wouldnt use Michigan as the game to prop Haskins up. Michigan always chokes against teams they arent worlds better than.
You really playing in Urbans offense and playing in Clemsons offense isnt all that different right? Goal post moving
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In comment 14242478 dep026 said:
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Worth a pick at 6? You swing and miss there... you think the last few year have been hell... just wait.
Guy hasnt even played 15 games in a system friendly towards QBs for a team that talent level trumped every single team he played.
The fear of missing is clouding judgements here.
Haskins only having only one year of playing, and a good one, would be the perfect pick if Shurmur is who we hired him to be.
A QB, with tools but limited experience that a supposed QB whisperer can mold.
I don't want a QB who needs a QB whisperer to be good with the 6th overall pick. I want a player.
I can get that kind of QB in later rounds.
Except you dont get a player without Haskins talent in the later rounds.
Every QB needs good coaching, see Goff under Fisher vs Goff under Mcvay
irrespective of how they want to build a team they need a stud pass rusher so i have no issue if they go in that direction.
It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.
Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...
His high school was a client of mine, so Ive actually known about him since he was a Freshman in high school. I provided Maryland with data on him during the recruitment, but ok...
The only thing to laugh at is the fact you can dismiss him because Ohio States talent is so much better or because Michigan always chokes but dont do the same for Tua who as three wide receivers who would be 1 or 1a at nearly every school in the country, NFL prospects all over the line and a stable of runningbacks so good the best high school rb in the country two years ago doesnt play.
I agree. But people here are at the point of...
If we dont draft a QB - its a failure!!! Its maddening.
ancient chinese saying - "fuck'em"
dep who heard of Mahomes? Not a good point. Nobody hears of anybody until they've been scouted or light up a scoreboard somewhere.
But I guarantee college coaches and NFL scouts of heard of these kinds of players...
It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.
Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...
See if we have the season we had this year... there are going to be options galore for QB.
Tua
Fromm
Herbert - he was the supposed best this year
Eason
We can start with those 4 and I am sure there will be a handful of others as well. I can argue those 4 are better prospects than Haskins or Jones or lock.
Id be pretty stoked to land one of them.
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Im pretty sure you never heard of him before week 5 of the college season.... haha
dep who heard of Mahomes? Not a good point. Nobody hears of anybody until they've been scouted or light up a scoreboard somewhere.
But I guarantee college coaches and NFL scouts of heard of these kinds of players...
Mahomes was always labeled a project. I saw him as 2-3 rounder coming into his final year. And he was a 3 year starter too.
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after every loss there are posters for example the dude that started this thread that won't blame Eli for a thing. SO many apologists for eli. His QB rating is terrible and you have people agreeing with his silly
"points scored" argument. It;s laughable the fanboy-homerism for ELi.
Try explaining to any statistician that "points scored" is any way to accurately measure a QB and you'll gt them to cry laughing at the absurdity. This is the same guy who thinks ELi right now is better than matt Ryan.
Can you really point to any posters who don't think Eli is part of the problem?
We are a bad football team and have been for some time. Everyone deserves to shoulder a portion of the blame.
I think part of the reason you see support for Eli isn't just because he's the starting QB for the team we root for, but because of the over-the-top commentary after almost any loss. When you have a particular poster who uses terms like the Cult of Eli or eli fanboys in nearly every one of his posts, it is easy to see why you would have people respond to refute that fucking drivel.
I don't think I can name a single poster who thinks Eli is above blame or that he hasn't contributed to the poor seasons. I can find several posters who truly believe that eli is the root of the problem
I'm not sure your point here. We haven't made the playoffs the last 6 of 7 years and it doesn't look like we;ll make it next year either (though in football sure anything can happen.). And the last two years have produced 8 wins combined. Why wouldnt you expect Eli to take some blame? How much positive can you spin? Frankly I think too many have been beaten down.
ANother thread had I believe a few posters thinking if it weren't for those few games we lost close - that we're actually close to being real good. These posters imo have "accepted' losing. A loss is a loss. WHen you have 11 you stink. You get no wins for being close to winning. There is no "close" a sany positive when you lose ELEVEN.
Anyhow-- I don't see the big deal for many many posters complaining to some degree of Eli - all of us are witness to all these awful seasons. You can't "excuse" him. But I agree with you some pin the blame on ELi but EVERYONE should give him SOME blame. He plays the most important position on the football field. His stats are not good this year for example as far as QBR. You say yourself that everyone deserves the blame but we see who wins "the SUper Bowl MVP's" and which positions get paid the most etc. It starts a lot with the QB. So when things are great the Qb gets accolades but when things go bad let's not go after the QB who is having a subpar year according to QBR?
As far as "part of the reason" why some posters support ELi in the manner you speak-- I'm sorry but I don't agree in fanaticism like this OP has shown. I dont't believe the absurdity of using "points scored" - I think it's embarrassing to even bring it up on this site. I think its embarrassing for anyone to think ELi at this point in his career for a season is better than Matt Ryan.
**But the bottomline is the QB gets the adoration and accolades if all goes well and the blame if it doesn't. Just go look at a recent title on this site here called ----
"Eli dropped 35 points against a very good Cowboys D"
and then the OP saqbar999 goes on to say Eli also dropped 27 against a good colt d.
We both know it's a team game and it was a lot more than just "Eli." But no one argued that. It's just natural and acknowledged that's what the Qb gets. THe QB position iIS the most important position on the field. It can't be ignored. SO when the Gmen put up 35 points -- it's accepted as Eli. WHen eli had all those come from behind victories those are "Eli's come from behind victories" and not much said of the individual other player's and how they are "clutch" for their careers. Thus when they now lose ofc it comes back to bite him.
This is exactly how it should be. But I agree temperament that this is no way no way no way all eli's fault imo it is wrong BUT to excuse the fanatics like the OP and some of his ilk is wrong too. We're not some wimpy fans such as in baseball Tampa bay. We shouldn't accept ;losing and further it's terrible to read some posters giving excuses "but if not for 4 close games . . . etc."
We have a Qb in which the data shows through QBR that he had a sub par year. even someone like USAF using "eyeball" sees it even though he doesnt agree with QBR. I'm hopeful on here that all of us can be honest to a certain degree and accept BOTH POV that it isn't entirely Eli's fault nor is it what thefantaics like the OP and his ilk dont want to give any blame to him or extremely minimal. IMO we MUST try to be FAIR and have it go BOTH ways. If posters like the op and his ilk can't take Eli criticism it still doesnt justify their fanaticism.
They need ot get over it. It;s the nature of the beast with the QB - the most important position on the football field.
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but not one to prevent the front office doing EVERYTHING they can find a quality replacement for Eli this season.
It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.
Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...
See if we have the season we had this year... there are going to be options galore for QB.
Tua
Fromm
Herbert - he was the supposed best this year
Eason
We can start with those 4 and I am sure there will be a handful of others as well. I can argue those 4 are better prospects than Haskins or Jones or lock.
Id be pretty stoked to land one of them.
Eason is a better prospect than Haskins based on what? His 16 tds and 2400 yards? Or the fact he hasnt played football in two years?
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In comment 14242560 dep026 said:
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Im pretty sure you never heard of him before week 5 of the college season.... haha
dep who heard of Mahomes? Not a good point. Nobody hears of anybody until they've been scouted or light up a scoreboard somewhere.
But I guarantee college coaches and NFL scouts of heard of these kinds of players...
Mahomes was always labeled a project. I saw him as 2-3 rounder coming into his final year. And he was a 3 year starter too.
Did you know him soph year?
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but not one to prevent the front office doing EVERYTHING they can find a quality replacement for Eli this season.
It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.
Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...
See if we have the season we had this year... there are going to be options galore for QB.
Tua
Fromm
Herbert - he was the supposed best this year
Eason
We can start with those 4 and I am sure there will be a handful of others as well. I can argue those 4 are better prospects than Haskins or Jones or lock.
Id be pretty stoked to land one of them.
Well then its done...Giants will just draft their future star QB in 2020. Nothing else to consider.
Eason is a better prospect than Haskins based on what? His 16 tds and 2400 yards? Or the fact he hasnt played football in two years?
Eason was the number 1 prospect in the nation coming out of high school. He started as a true freshman. He got hurt. Shit happens. He has 1 year at Washington left.... where he is beloved on that team. Can he tank? Sure. But I believe he will be in the mix for the first orund next year.
Did you know him soph year?
Of course I did. Betting overs in the Big 12 is my thing...haha
Again - who is accepting losing? Better yet - what isn't accepting losing? Is it saying that the GM and HC need to be fired when we were halfway through the season? Is it getting disappointed that a QB wasn't drafted and then spend all year bitching about how we needed to select one of the many QB's who look nothing better than mediocre so far?
Is it expecting 3rd rounders to be failures because the previous GM whiffed on them?
In my experience, not accepting losses just sounds like a lot of fucking whining.
Ignore him.
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Did you know him soph year?
Of course I did. Betting overs in the Big 12 is my thing...haha
well done!
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Eason is a better prospect than Haskins based on what? His 16 tds and 2400 yards? Or the fact he hasnt played football in two years?
Eason was the number 1 prospect in the nation coming out of high school. He started as a true freshman. He got hurt. Shit happens. He has 1 year at Washington left.... where he is beloved on that team. Can he tank? Sure. But I believe he will be in the mix for the first orund next year.
You dont realize your hypocrisy do you?
Haskins has only played one year... cant take him
Eason has played one, which was nowhere near as good as Haskins... better NFL prospect based on nothing but Deps gut.
Have some consistency.
If Haskins goes back, that gives him a 2nd year as well. And a chance to hone his skills to be in the conversation as well. Understand now?
If Haskins goes back, that gives him a 2nd year as well. And a chance to hone his skills to be in the conversation as well. Understand now?
You said hes a better prospect than Haskins based off nothing. That second year means nothing talking about today. Youd pass on a guy because another guy has a hypothetical second year?
Youre basing him being better than Haskins off one year. Thats not being
Ok. Lot of people were enamored wit hEason after his freshman year. Its about projecting. Isnt it?
Ok. Lot of people were enamored wit hEason after his freshman year. Its about projecting. Isnt it?
Haskins year of film, granted he was older, was better than Easons from just a film perspective.
Take into account the injury, and Haskins is a better prospect right now.
But yet youre the one here laughing off other peoples sentments...
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not everyone share the same sentiments.
But yet youre the one here laughing off other peoples sentments...
Sometimes laughter is the best medicine. Not everyone in this world is miserable.
They need ER, OT/OL, FS and CB help right away. Even a pass rush LB type if exceptional. I still feel that is what they do. The defense is just garbage and a couple tweaks on the oline would go a long way. OC needs to be a focus too in order to stymie the push up the middle.
Of course until we see what they focus on in FA, there is no way to know the direction DG takes in the draft beofre FA.
You're exacty right. If the GMen feel he isn;t it then ofc pass-- but they better be right. I read dg can't be right all the time which is correct. But he keeps his job or loses his job based on his degree of being right or wrong. He better be rightifhe passes on him.
What gets me is the fanaticism though by some to just dump on Haskins without reading. As I posted before-
My view he looks good so does Bleacher report, walter Camp, Sb Nation, NBC sports, Sporting News, Mel Kiper, Fotballmaven, Thunderdogpsorts. - ANd Pro football weekly had an article in October saying hsi stock was rising as the 1st qb to be taken only after 6 games but the writer expressed caution that he had to see more. SO he didnt assign a number but so far he's been off thecharts.
I dont know but I expect the Gmen to know. But what gets me is posters liek the op just blinded by ELi fanatcism. The points he makes about Haskins are addressed within some of the references i cited above. DO you think he'll even take ONE SECOND toto look into it? He won't A guy such as Kiper says he was in denial but after so such a strong season he relented and now is 10.
People like the OP and his ilk arent going into this with no open mind. They herd in October that some scouts anted to see more from Haskins or maybe Sy didnt like him in ealry october? but you get the feeling many have changed their minds.
**And as I mentioned above of Profootballweekly the writer specifically adresses so few games in his October article. He says let's see how the rest of the season plays out. Well- we know how it has so far he's been outstanding. Yet what do keep reading from the OP - still hacking away at Haskins. OFC he could be right but imo this guy is a pathetic hero-worshipping fan. He is dug in on ELi and he doesn't want to hear shit - and he;ll keep making up stuff to stkkc up for his hero. I'm acknowledging 'I don't know." BUT
as I referenced MANy have turned the corner on Haskins because they have him in the top ten and nearly all have him as the top qb now.
And ofc you'll keep reading how the OP will keep pushing that people say get Haskins at all costs on this thread implying me. It;s a false narrative which he continually spouts on this subject and on ELi.
Im identifying references and can provide links. WHile the OP uses cliche look at Ohio State QBs of the past. It is mentioned butn anyways do you think all the services that have him in top 10 including Kiper don't know about OSU QB's of the past? I think Iread that this guy is different. Do you really think the OP is going to care? It's all about protecting his hero.
So I guess you dont know shit about shit?
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In comment 14242567 Jimmy Googs said:
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but not one to prevent the front office doing EVERYTHING they can find a quality replacement for Eli this season.
It may not come to be that the Giants draft a QB in 2019 but it sure as shit better be because they exhausted their due diligence and determined every single one available wasn't worth the value/risk.
Punting the decision because we have other needs or the 2020 QB class looks better comes with its own set of risks/issues...
See if we have the season we had this year... there are going to be options galore for QB.
Tua
Fromm
Herbert - he was the supposed best this year
Eason
We can start with those 4 and I am sure there will be a handful of others as well. I can argue those 4 are better prospects than Haskins or Jones or lock.
Id be pretty stoked to land one of them.
Well then its done...Giants will just draft their future star QB in 2020. Nothing else to consider.
The OP is laughable. Doesn;t for one second think what will happen if Eli starts, the Gmen getTWO Linemen in free agency, draft a pass rusher that;s an impact in round 1-- the how the hell are we going to be in position to get any of the top 4 QB's?
Oh yeah simple WE:LL JUST TRADE UP -- EASY_ no one lese wants these stud QB's and we have so much talent we cna just easily give away future draft picks for a young QB which means we wont be ready to possibly be a contender until at least 2021. More tick tock tick tock with our RB Barkley.
Holy Shit. BBI sucks.
thats why its laughable to want to improve the OL and defense.
Does he evaporate at 24 yrs old?
That's why we needed to draft a QB this year and then draft Barkley in 2022!!
Or as some theorize, we can just sign the guy bagging groceries at the Publix as RB's are all basically the same.
A lot of pressure.
Sit Barkley until we have a QB for 2 years and then unleash the Kraken!!
Lombardi in 2024!!
Sit Barkley until we have a QB for 2 years and then unleash the Kraken!!
Lombardi in 2024!!
Don't stop there, bubble wrap and PUP for OBJ and Engram too. Tank for 2020 draft.
Championship!
Holy Shit. BBI sucks.
Who siad this?
You have quotes who said this or are you now in full lyinmg mode?
Pelease provdie the quotes that said drafting th OLine or DL is laughable.
I think oyu are lying. No one said it. I'm calling you a liar.
Liar.
Liar.
Liar.
Please provide the quotes who said drafting OL and dl is laughable. wt=hata was laughabel was your suggestion IF the Gmen get the OL and dl that we'd probalby get through FA and draft thatthye will win too many games ot get the elite QB
YOU ARE A LIAR
YOU ARE LYING
YOU ARE MISRESRENTING POSTS.
THis is the type of things fanatics like you do.
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on the OL and defense through the draft is laughable?
Holy Shit. BBI sucks.
Who siad this?
You have quotes who said this or are you now in full lyinmg mode?
Pelease provdie the quotes that said drafting th OLine or DL is laughable.
I think oyu are lying. No one said it. I'm calling you a liar.
Liar.
Liar.
Liar.
Please provide the quotes who said drafting OL and dl is laughable. wt=hata was laughabel was your suggestion IF the Gmen get the OL and dl that we'd probalby get through FA and draft thatthye will win too many games ot get the elite QB
YOU ARE A LIAR
YOU ARE LYING
YOU ARE MISRESRENTING POSTS.
THis is the type of things fanatics like you do.
quaaludes are your friend..
Hows it go... Im rubber and youre glue... or whatever the fuck it is.
Keep talking out of your ass stock. I am going to go hang with my ilk. Ill continue to look to see how the giants can get better. You keep writing novels about whatever nonsense youve been writing the whole time.
From what Ive read from your mombo jombo... we have to draft a QB no matter what because an improved team next year means we cant even get a good AB.
Makes sense
The OP is laughable. Doesn;t for one second think what will happen if Eli starts, the Gmen getTWO Linemen in free agency, draft a pass rusher that;s an impact in round 1-- the how the hell are we going to be in position to get any of the top 4 QB's?
Oh yeah simple WE:LL JUST TRADE UP -- EASY_ no one lese wants these stud QB's and we have so much talent we cna just easily give away future draft picks for a young QB which means we wont be ready to possibly be a contender until at least 2021. More tick tock tick tock with our RB Barkley.
Lets break down this gem:
1. So we cant trade up huh?
Jets traded up to 3.
Buffalo traded up to 7.
Arizona traded up to 10.
Baltimore traded to 32.
So not only does your post make ZERO SENSE. We just saw 4 instances LAST year disproving your theory!!!
Great job Einstein!
Oh and the year before, didnt the Chiefs trade up to get Mahomes? Didnt the Bears trade up to get trubinsky? The year before that didnt the eagles trade up for Wentz?
You wanna keep going? Because this is embarrasing in itself. I mean mic dropped bad.
As to the QBR thing and the top QBs consistently being on top. Let's look:
Tom Brady: 97.7 Rating or 70.6 Total QBR (ESPN version) if you prefer.
5th ranked rushing offense. 21st ranked defense.
The popular choice for GOAT right now.
Russel Wilson: 110.9 or 65.6
1st ranked rushing offense. 16th ranked defense.
One of my favorite QBs right now.
Patrick Mahomes: 113.8 or 81.6
16th ranked rushing offense. 31st ranked defense.
This QB and passing offense are on fire.
Drew Brees: 115.7 or 80.8
6th ranked rushing offense. 14th ranked defense.
Drew Brees is in contention for the GOAT as far as I'm concerned.
Matt Ryan: 108.1 or 68.2
27th ranked rushing offense. 28th ranked defense.
He's having a pretty good year IMHO.
Philip Rivers: 105.5 or 70.2
15th ranked rushing offense. 9th ranked defense.
I think he's having a good year.
Andrew Luck: 98.7 or 71.7
20th ranked rushing offense. 11th ranked defense.
Nothing to add except first year back.
Aaron Rogers: 97.6 or 60.6
22nd ranked rushing offense. 18th ranked defense.
Also has been in contention as the GOAT. Not this year! Not even close.
Dak Prescott: 96.9 or 57.8
10th ranked rushing offense. 7th ranked defense.
Jared Goff: 101.1 or 66.4
3rd ranked rushing offense. 19th ranked defense.
Cam Newton: 94.2 or 55.9
4th ranked rushing offense. 15th ranked defense.
Ben Roethlisberger: 96.5 or 71.8
31st ranked rushing offense. 6th ranked defense.
Eli Manning: 92.4 or 51.8
24th ranked rushing offense. 24th ranked defense.
The fact that the Giants have the 2nd leading rusher in the league with Barkley but are ranked 24th says a lot. Their run vs pass ration explains it even more. RUN THE DAMN BALL!
Not including Wentz or Smith due to injuries. Foles not enough time playing. Similar for other QBs. Tell me if I missed someone important.
Why am I pointing out their rushing offense and defensive ranks? A QB has very little control over having a good to great rushing game. At best, they can look at the coverage and switch in or out of a run. They have absolutely no control over how a defense performs. However, as we all know, a solid run game can help a defense by giving them more time to rest. QB's, in turn, have to overcome a poor rushing offense or a poor defense to win games.
Therefore, let's see what Eli Manning has to overcome by averaging all these QB's team rankings with a better rating than Eli Manning;
Average Offensive rush ranking: 13.33 or 13th by rounding.
Average Defensive ranking: 16.25 or 16th by rounding.
Eli has to overcome deficits of 11 ranks in rushing offense and 8 ranks in defense. This is not cherry picking at all. These are very legit stats. Eli has little to no control over the rushing offense and absolutely no control over the defense. You can do this same check every year because the Giants' defense has not been good. Their rushing offense has not been good. At least not consistently year to year. In 2011, both were on the bottom of the league and that's why I say Eli had that one 'Elite" year. His QBR that year was top 10, barely, ranking 10th.
BTW, the Giants passing offense, is ranked 11th. Call me crazy but I think the QB has something to do with that. From the above list that's ranked higher than Wilson, Brees, Luck, Rogers, Prescott, and Newton. Am I saying Eli is better than them, no. Sure as hell not Brees, Wilson, Rogers, or Luck. It just goes towards showing that the QBR is a bullshit stat. Always has been and always will be. It claims to factor everything in but it doesn't.
I will also again repeat that I think Eli Manning is average right now. He is not part of the problem or the solution. The team can win with him if they fix the other parts but should absolutely go for the heir apparent when they identify one that's worthy. They should look to improve every position on the roster when possible but shouldn't reach because of the importance of the position. I don't want to go through Brown, Kanell, Graham, and Collins again. I'd rather hold on to average and build the team around him and for the next QB.
Also of note, the team had exactly 8 games before and after the bye. The team significantly improved after the bye. It improved when Gettleman and Shurmur shifted the OL. It improved when they significantly started running the ball more and passing less. Again I saw, they are figuring it out. Pass rush has become priority 1A (I say that because the upcoming draft seems to favor pass rushers to me). OL is 1B. QB, based on both need and strength of the draft, are hardly even on my radar for 2019.
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The OP is laughable. Doesn;t for one second think what will happen if Eli starts, the Gmen getTWO Linemen in free agency, draft a pass rusher that;s an impact in round 1-- the how the hell are we going to be in position to get any of the top 4 QB's?
Oh yeah simple WE:LL JUST TRADE UP -- EASY_ no one lese wants these stud QB's and we have so much talent we cna just easily give away future draft picks for a young QB which means we wont be ready to possibly be a contender until at least 2021. More tick tock tick tock with our RB Barkley.
Lets break down this gem:
1. So we cant trade up huh?
Jets traded up to 3.
Buffalo traded up to 7.
Arizona traded up to 10.
Baltimore traded to 32.
So not only does your post make ZERO SENSE. We just saw 4 instances LAST year disproving your theory!!!
Great job Einstein!
Oh and the year before, didnt the Chiefs trade up to get Mahomes? Didnt the Bears trade up to get trubinsky? The year before that didnt the eagles trade up for Wentz?
You wanna keep going? Because this is embarrasing in itself. I mean mic dropped bad.
Youd be ok trading picks to move up? What if that guys busts?
Just because teams traded up last year doesnt mean the opportunity is going to present itself next year.
You cant bank on someone wanting to trade with you and the price being reasonable.
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Just proving this dimwits theory as false as false can be.
Just because teams traded up last year doesnt mean the opportunity is going to present itself next year.
You cant bank on someone wanting to trade with you and the price being reasonable.
The opportunity arrives every year.
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In comment 14242833 dep026 said:
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Just proving this dimwits theory as false as false can be.
Just because teams traded up last year doesnt mean the opportunity is going to present itself next year.
You cant bank on someone wanting to trade with you and the price being reasonable.
The opportunity arrives every year.
In a vacuum sure. Then theres cost, teams wanting to trade out of their spot, the player you want being there.
What if four QB needy teams get the top 4 picks? What if two of the QBs stay in school?
The opportunity in theory arrives every year. The opportunity isnt always as realistic as youre making it out to be.
Once again ignoring the point.
Of course there will be trades. Will the Giants be in a position to trade up? Will the asking price be too high for them? Will someone out bid them for a spot? Will the teams in key spots want to trade or take the QB themselves?
Those are all things you cant guarantee.
The 11th ranked passing game also has a high correlation to attempts which the Giants are actually 9th in.
we are going to agree to disagree to some extent - qbr has some correlation of quality of play-since it considers ypa and td pct and int pct. More about efficiency than aggregation.
dont disagree with a fair amount you said though. never suggested you claimed eli was still old eli 😃. believe thats directed elsewhere.
there is no objective way to factor things like the quality of team around a qb so maybe in the future a stat which factors drops, time in pocket, and other metrics emerges which better describes individual impact.
Week 11 vs. TB.
Eli Manning was 18 inches away from having a perfect day passing with 3 TDs. The 18 inches was he threw the ball on the wrong shoulder of Barkley. 18 inches from doing everything EXACTLY what a QB needed to do.
He was flawless. He was near perfect. But still only good enough for 11th of the week! 10 other QBs were considered to have better days.
Now I am not saying this is the case every week, or that other QBs didnt play better. But he literally played the perfect game, and his QBR doesnt reflect it.
It also rewards QBs who run more than pocket passers. Which can really skew the data.
ultimately we have to use a series of metrics and some consideration of the situation to evaluate qbs.
But in almost every case, players we consider great correlate with high qbr relative to their peers for a season or a a career.
in fact, Eli may be the most oddball case in NFL history-great impact with relatively average qbr with respect to peers.
Anyway, Eli was not my focus in this. just a mid 90s qbr was once stellar, its a median number in todays nfl.
Giantstock, I'm not annoyed with you specifically as several people say the same thing. I also get annoyed when people say that Eli didn't earn his SB MVPs because the defense won those. it's simply wrong. As to you claiming you are not assuming Gettleman is willing to trade back because he hasn't done it before is, in fact, an assumption. You are assuming he won't trade back because he's never done it before but he hasn't even had that many opportunities to do so. I still believe Gettleman is capable of making any available decision during the draft and is open to all options. I'm not making the assumption, you are. If there was some kind of legitimate evidence to support that Gettleman doesn't consider trade downs, you might have something. Simply not doing it yet does not a case make. It's like saying if you rolled a couple dice 5 times and never got snake eyes, you never will. This is a logical fallacy. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Additionally, you continue to be stuck on this point scored thing. Like I believe this be some all great measurement. All I'm saying is it does matter. It does say something. You make it sound like I think it's the most important stat in the world. I'll remind you for the last time that I followed up with the defense allowing more points stat as I thought that was more telling. You seem to be having trouble getting past that point. You're the one fixated on it. I'm not. If you think that a team's OL doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think that a team's defense doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the run game doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the game plan doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think penalties doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think etc. etc. etc. Now, how much of that information really goes into the QBR?
As to Dep, yea, he's Eli's biggest defender on here and I don't fault him for that. There are just as many on the opposite side that constantly bash Eli that you seem to discount. It's gotten ridiculous on both sides of that coin. I'm thankful to Dep on occasions .
As stated USAF I respect your opinion but disagree on everything you view vs what I view though i think we both agree we can't do much about it and just hope DGmakes the rightchoices.
Point 1-- I disagree that you are saying "assumption." It is fact that he hasn't done it before. Until he does it would be extreme to assume he wil be creative when has not shown ot be creative. It would be an assumption on both sides to say if he will or he won't. You seemed to imply/assume/predict he will in the 4th round. So if you can do it- so can I. I just want to see him do it and not assume he will though in my view that would be near meaningless in comparison to the context of our point of what Philly did to get Wentz vs what DG might do to get a 02 QB by trading up. IMO it would be an assumption to say he can do it successfully. If he does get creative in trades then I'll believe it. Until then I think he's a blcokhead with litle imagination per the reasons I've cited before. SHow me. I don't care about "assumptions" which you seem ot want to refer to this to.
If need be show me dg you can do something creative until then what makes you think he is capable? Your hope? Nothing he has done so far has been creative except he shocked many of in believing this team was good early on.
Point 2-- Youmention I can get past the "Points scored" issue. But that's the subject of this thread. It leads me to your points that I don't criticize those that hammer Eli at all costs. Butthat's not the subject of this thread. Its kind of strange you feel on this thread I should have a priority to do so. The points scored is to the issue I was arguing with the start of this thread so going after the the ones who always post against ELi doesn't address the issue.
DOes it mean every time I have a problem with a pro ELi thread I MUST make an absolute statement of the dummies who always criticize him for all things that have gone wrong?
If I see some thread and some idiot blaming ELi for everything i'm not going to go off-topic and bring up the silly comments made by this OP who looks to protect eli at all costs thus there is no reason for me to do on this one.
Point 3-- Are you trying to validate "points scored" vs QbR rating and justifying the absuridity ofthe OP implying that some of us who have criticized Eli that we're absurd to say eli hasn't been very good at all?He;s using "points scored" against us so you can't say I'm hung up on it when he is trying to use it to show how wrong we are that criticize. And you seem to be more on his side so ofc i'm going to put it back on you. You seem to be trying to justify it in this case. It's unjustifiable.
Point 4-- You said it does matter I say in this case it is hogwash vs QBR. QBR shows what you see with your eyeball. Points scored is beyond useless. You mention how the OL is for example affecting the QB sure you would be right but this leads to point 5-- which 4 and 5 and 6 are related
Point 5-- Also the QB affects the OL - he can make it better or worse. It's not all the OL. And what about the coach and maybe these coaches? How much of a level do we need ot go????? That's the extreme I think you're taking this. The QB affects the defense that's why you're issue of defense is completely irrelevant which I'll address in 6. When evaluating ulating the topic of this thread "poits scored" it can't tell us who is more reponsible. ANd yte you are justifying it. who si mroe repsonsible for all these [points: is it Barkley, or Eli, or the comeption (for example we catch teams with 2nd string QB's and teams devatsed by injuires or have easier shceules oetc. Barkley makes a usper run vs Dallas and yet the title of the thread is Eli puts up 35. SO imo you need ot hsow how the offense alos affetcs the defnse and what;s Eli's impact.
Point 6-- you indicate the defense- but you look at it with little to no view as to what the Gmen are doing on offense as to how it affects the defense. Toptenhammer, the poster, cited in games things eli could have done so much during critical situation such that we wouldnt have lost. This is just a small window as to how for example opposing defenses can stack the box and dare Eli to beat them. SO when teams stack the box and we can;t run out the clock wouldn;t it stand to reason that the QB has some blame in this? Yet all we're going to do is blame the defense even though the team this year was built more for it's offense and because Barkley is keyed on After all, this team was built for it's offense. SHOULD HAVE BEE N BETTER.
Wen th KC Chiefs play they know they have to score. So if thye put up 30 points thorugh 3 but dont do shit in the 4th and can;t hodl the lead it's all on the KC defense? To start teh season thsi Gmen offense was supposed ot carry thsi team. They put a lot intohigh dratf picks for the offense. This offense was usppose dot keep the defense of the field. Onstead the opsoing teams stack the line and dare the Gmen to beat them wiht ELi and the wr's.
What you have to consider in all this Eli bashing is that their is an undercurrent which many like the OP ignore in that he's OLD. Sure it's acknowledged but then we all get the same tired response "but he gives us our best chance to win." The point is he doesnt give this team the best chance to win future super bowls. That ship has sailed. His slower read play a factor in his effectiveness and as a result put more pressure on the defense that what it should.
Point 7 - You don;t fault the OP for being a fanatic -I do.
Three year life span for who? WHo quoted a 3 year life span on a player? Are you referring to Barkley? WHo said he only had a 3 year lifespan?
Or is this "everyone on deck and misrepresnt anoyne that posts against our beloved Eli," the way the OP does?
Otherwise please provide the quotes.
So heres an idea. Shut the hell up. And stop accusing people of things you dont know dick about.
"Point 7?"
Gtfohwts.
Quote:
As stated USAF I respect your opinion but disagree on everything you view vs what I view though i think we both agree we can't do much about it and just hope DGmakes the rightchoices.
Point 1-- I disagree that you are saying "assumption." It is fact that he hasn't done it before. Until he does it would be extreme to assume he wil be creative when has not shown ot be creative. It would be an assumption on both sides to say if he will or he won't. You seemed to imply/assume/predict he will in the 4th round. So if you can do it- so can I. I just want to see him do it and not assume he will though in my view that would be near meaningless in comparison to the context of our point of what Philly did to get Wentz vs what DG might do to get a 02 QB by trading up. IMO it would be an assumption to say he can do it successfully. If he does get creative in trades then I'll believe it. Until then I think he's a blcokhead with litle imagination per the reasons I've cited before. SHow me. I don't care about "assumptions" which you seem ot want to refer to this to.
If need be show me dg you can do something creative until then what makes you think he is capable? Your hope? Nothing he has done so far has been creative except he shocked many of in believing this team was good early on.
Point 2-- Youmention I can get past the "Points scored" issue. But that's the subject of this thread. It leads me to your points that I don't criticize those that hammer Eli at all costs. Butthat's not the subject of this thread. Its kind of strange you feel on this thread I should have a priority to do so. The points scored is to the issue I was arguing with the start of this thread so going after the the ones who always post against ELi doesn't address the issue.
DOes it mean every time I have a problem with a pro ELi thread I MUST make an absolute statement of the dummies who always criticize him for all things that have gone wrong?
If I see some thread and some idiot blaming ELi for everything i'm not going to go off-topic and bring up the silly comments made by this OP who looks to protect eli at all costs thus there is no reason for me to do on this one.
Point 3-- Are you trying to validate "points scored" vs QbR rating and justifying the absuridity ofthe OP implying that some of us who have criticized Eli that we're absurd to say eli hasn't been very good at all?He;s using "points scored" against us so you can't say I'm hung up on it when he is trying to use it to show how wrong we are that criticize. And you seem to be more on his side so ofc i'm going to put it back on you. You seem to be trying to justify it in this case. It's unjustifiable.
Point 4-- You said it does matter I say in this case it is hogwash vs QBR. QBR shows what you see with your eyeball. Points scored is beyond useless. You mention how the OL is for example affecting the QB sure you would be right but this leads to point 5-- which 4 and 5 and 6 are related
Point 5-- Also the QB affects the OL - he can make it better or worse. It's not all the OL. And what about the coach and maybe these coaches? How much of a level do we need ot go????? That's the extreme I think you're taking this. The QB affects the defense that's why you're issue of defense is completely irrelevant which I'll address in 6. When evaluating ulating the topic of this thread "poits scored" it can't tell us who is more reponsible. ANd yte you are justifying it. who si mroe repsonsible for all these [points: is it Barkley, or Eli, or the comeption (for example we catch teams with 2nd string QB's and teams devatsed by injuires or have easier shceules oetc. Barkley makes a usper run vs Dallas and yet the title of the thread is Eli puts up 35. SO imo you need ot hsow how the offense alos affetcs the defnse and what;s Eli's impact.
Point 6-- you indicate the defense- but you look at it with little to no view as to what the Gmen are doing on offense as to how it affects the defense. Toptenhammer, the poster, cited in games things eli could have done so much during critical situation such that we wouldnt have lost. This is just a small window as to how for example opposing defenses can stack the box and dare Eli to beat them. SO when teams stack the box and we can;t run out the clock wouldn;t it stand to reason that the QB has some blame in this? Yet all we're going to do is blame the defense even though the team this year was built more for it's offense and because Barkley is keyed on After all, this team was built for it's offense. SHOULD HAVE BEE N BETTER.
Wen th KC Chiefs play they know they have to score. So if thye put up 30 points thorugh 3 but dont do shit in the 4th and can;t hodl the lead it's all on the KC defense? To start teh season thsi Gmen offense was supposed ot carry thsi team. They put a lot intohigh dratf picks for the offense. This offense was usppose dot keep the defense of the field. Onstead the opsoing teams stack the line and dare the Gmen to beat them wiht ELi and the wr's.
What you have to consider in all this Eli bashing is that their is an undercurrent which many like the OP ignore in that he's OLD. Sure it's acknowledged but then we all get the same tired response "but he gives us our best chance to win." The point is he doesnt give this team the best chance to win future super bowls. That ship has sailed. His slower read play a factor in his effectiveness and as a result put more pressure on the defense that what it should.
Point 7 - You don;t fault the OP for being a fanatic -I do.
giantstock,
I respect your opinion too. I offer you no ill will. Yes, we both know it's up to Gettleman to make the right choice. I will respond to each of your "points" and then that will be it for me on this thread. I just don't have the time so agree to disagree. If you post a rebuttal, I will read it and respect your opinion on it. I don't wish to ignore you as you make some decent points. Again, agree to disagree.
Point 1: I don't think you understand how assumption works. I don't assume Gettleman will do anything based on his past. Literally, everything that he can do is open as an option. His past does not his future make. To "assume" he will do something based on his past, especially such a short past history, is a logical fallacy. You are assuming he will not trade down. I am not assuming he will do anything but simply accept trading down is, in fact, one of his options that he may or may not choose. That, in no way, is an assumption on my part.
Point 2: You are tying me into the OP. I'm not the OP. My responses have been to you like yours have been to me but I didn't post about the OP's point specifically other than supporting one of his points with extra data. That extra data was not about "point scored". If you want specifics on who, what, when, where, why, and how of "points scored", I suggest you ask the OP. In fact, our conversations have helped derail the thread which I didn't mean to do and is another reason why this will be my last post on it.
Point 3: Again, I never compared "points scored" vs QBR. I've answered this before. This is really Point 2 worded differently. New question though about QBR being the same as the eyeball test I've already explained before as well. It's supposed to be that way but to me, it's not. I had a whole seperate post showing why I think QBR is a garbage stat. Several other posters showed why it's flawed. Nothing will fix it because there are way way way too many variables involved for the QB position. It will never be a worthwile stat.
Point 4: How many different ways are you going to re-word this and call it a different point? That's rhetorical.
Point 5: See there it is again, "points scored". Kindly, speak to the OP about "points scored". Your multiple points have made my point for me though. Thank you.
Point 6: If you are suggesting now that Eli is affecting the defense with anymore than what I already mentioned about the running the ball more helping the defense, I can't help you with that. Sounds like you are now trying to assign some blame to Eli for the poor defense as well. I've explained several times on multiple threads that yes, all of those things and more affect the QB. Your precious QBR does not reflect those. It can't and never will. There is no such metric that can cover everything about a QB. I gave a very long post on this very thread showing just a couple of those outside factors affecting the QB with legit stats to back it up. There are a myriad of other factors I can include as well.
Here's one more and then I'm done. How were Eli's interception numbers under Gilbride compared to after Gilbride? Under Gilbride: 18, all others: 13.6. An offensive scheme affects the QB. QBR doesn't effectively factor that in. Disclaimer: This is not a complaint about Gilbride but an acknowledgement that his offense was not QB friendly. It had more risk/reward to it.
Next, are we comparing the Giants' offense to KC? Yea, that's fair. Sarcasm in case that was missed. I love how all of your examples are to the extreme direction one way or the other. I'll ask you this though, as we both acknowledge (I think) that Barkley is the team's best chance to score, why is on several games where the Giant's needed another score to win at the end, the play caller (Shurmur) didn't call Barkley's number? Hell, most of the time, he was on the sideline. A couple of those, OBJ wasn't in the game either.
Point 7: I can't fault the OP for being a fanatic and ignore everyone on the flip side of that coin like you do, no. You clearly disagree with the OP and that's fine. You even get to complain about him posting something simply because you don't agree. It's ironic but yes you can do that. It's a fan forum. It's a sports' fan forum. Go to any other sport's fan forum and you will see the same thing. It's basically what we do on these forums. If ANY OF US actually knew any better than the current Giants' staff, we would probably be working for them and not have time to post on a fan forum.
Week 11 vs. TB.
Eli Manning was 18 inches away from having a perfect day passing with 3 TDs. The 18 inches was he threw the ball on the wrong shoulder of Barkley. 18 inches from doing everything EXACTLY what a QB needed to do.
He was flawless. He was near perfect. But still only good enough for 11th of the week! 10 other QBs were considered to have better days.
Now I am not saying this is the case every week, or that other QBs didnt play better. But he literally played the perfect game, and his QBR doesnt reflect it.
It also rewards QBs who run more than pocket passers. Which can really skew the data.
The nature of the stat is that it grades on a curve.
10/10 for 3 TDs can be perfect within what you're asked to do.
"perfect" doesn't take into account things like yards per attempt, or each throw in particular. Not all throws are the same. Most modern QB metrics grade on difficulty. The QB that hits on long downfield throws with accuracy gets more credit than the QB who's offense asks him to possess the ball and string together short passes.
When you look at the pass chart for the game, it really was a short passing game other than one deep shot to Beckham for 41 yards.
It also punishes things like fumbles and turnovers heavily, maybe excessively so.
The nature of the stat is that it grades on a curve.
10/10 for 3 TDs can be perfect within what you're asked to do.
"perfect" doesn't take into account things like yards per attempt, or each throw in particular. Not all throws are the same. Most modern QB metrics grade on difficulty. The QB that hits on long downfield throws with accuracy gets more credit than the QB who's offense asks him to possess the ball and string together short passes.
When you look at the pass chart for the game, it really was a short passing game other than one deep shot to Beckham for 41 yards.
It also punishes things like fumbles and turnovers heavily, maybe excessively so.
And I get and understand that. But sometimes these metrics dont reward you for doing what you are suppose to do. I mean whether you like Eli or not, we can agree that game he was pretty damn good. He wasnt asked to throw all over the place, but when he was - he was inches away from being perfect.
He should not be penalized for that. I mean I think Big Ben had a higher rating that week with 3 turnovers and 3 more dropped ones too.
With QB rating, you throw a few touchdowns, you get a pretty rating even if you were foul through 3 quarters and pulled it together at the end.
I don't remember the Roethlisberger game, but Eli having the 11th highest grade that week isn't really a 'punishment'. It's just pointing out that he did his job well.
I'm not saying anything to minimize what he did. He did everything they needed him to do that game and he was great for the team in that game. But any scale has to leave room for people who play exceptionally well, too. I think Luck had the highest-rated QBR game that week, he played the Titans and went 23/29 for 297 with 3 touchdowns. And we have seen firsthand how good the Titans defense is.
He didn't complete as many passes as Eli did, but the rating is higher because he didn't have a fumble, and the opponent was much tougher.
I think the doubt around the stat just comes from the way it's computed and the factors that they take into account.