Giant fan be an Eli homer to some degree? I will proudly state I am. Sure, this could be the end, but there is a false narrative built up that Eli has been a dark cloud holding this team back since 2013.
Ridiculous
TC was scapegoated too, how did that work out?
You think I meant every Eli fan is fanboy-homer? I'm an Eli fan. ButI think you missed my context. I brought up an example to him-- who do you think was better this year Matt Ryan or Eli? WHo is the better Qb going forward (not career)?
I's sokay to be an Eli fan and not have to kiss his feet, right?
to be fair, I honestly can't name a single BBIer on the other side'... which is absolutely not to say that there aren't... just that no single individual seems to have staked their name to this cause (pro or against) in quite the same way as dep has over the past few years.
But that is probably just me not paying as close attention...
Well LG, I’m afraid I’m forced to name 2. One doesn’t live in this country and the other noted above that the offense got better when we started playing against backup quarterbacks. Maybe it was a typo and he meant backup cornerbacks. Coulda been...
The Eli haters say the homers are only looking at the stats that make Eli look good. The Eli homers are saying the haters are only looking at the stats that make Eli look bad. Eventually, it will turn into an argument of not looking at the stats at all but using the "eye test". Then it's on to the next forum thread that turns into an Eli thread regardless of the OPs intent. I for one think Eli is "currently" the best option they have to win and I think that somehow makes me a homer.
Bottom line is Eli could once carry the team as he did in 2011. Yes, Eli did carry that team into the playoffs and continued his great play into the playoffs. It doesn't look like he can do that anymore. Does he have to carry the team now? Looks like Barkley can do that with a good run game. Also, as they haven't made the playoffs, I'm not sure he can step up as he's done in the past during the post-season either. He is neither part of the solution or part of the problem. He is average right now. Still capable of making some amazing throws but it does appear that the game is getting faster on him (as opposed to wanting to hear rookies say how the game is slowing down for them). I don't see a decline in his arm. He's never been mobile. It's just the game seems to be moving faster on him now. He's still better than all the other current options out there though.
Until the Giants find that next level QB (the heir apparent if you will) the conversation is mute. I, for one, don't want to gamble draft picks on a maybe. 2020 looks like the best opportunity to take a shot at a QB. I'm not liking the 2019 draft class and didn't like the 2018 draft class either. Except for maybe Foles (big maybe), I'm not liking the FA class either (Foles can opt out of his contract so kind of like a FA). I think he's gonna grab a big contract next season so not worth it for the Giants. In 2020, draft the next QB. Sell the farm if you have to but that's when to draft a QB. Until then, the debate will never end. Hell, it will go on for years after they replace Eli.
The Eli haters say the homers are only looking at the stats that make Eli look good. The Eli homers are saying the haters are only looking at the stats that make Eli look bad. Eventually, it will turn into an argument of not looking at the stats at all but using the "eye test". Then it's on to the next forum thread that turns into an Eli thread regardless of the OPs intent. I for one think Eli is "currently" the best option they have to win and I think that somehow makes me a homer.
Bottom line is Eli could once carry the team as he did in 2011. Yes, Eli did carry that team into the playoffs and continued his great play into the playoffs. It doesn't look like he can do that anymore. Does he have to carry the team now? Looks like Barkley can do that with a good run game. Also, as they haven't made the playoffs, I'm not sure he can step up as he's done in the past during the post-season either. He is neither part of the solution or part of the problem. He is average right now. Still capable of making some amazing throws but it does appear that the game is getting faster on him (as opposed to wanting to hear rookies say how the game is slowing down for them). I don't see a decline in his arm. He's never been mobile. It's just the game seems to be moving faster on him now. He's still better than all the other current options out there though.
Until the Giants find that next level QB (the heir apparent if you will) the conversation is mute. I, for one, don't want to gamble draft picks on a maybe. 2020 looks like the best opportunity to take a shot at a QB. I'm not liking the 2019 draft class and didn't like the 2018 draft class either. Except for maybe Foles (big maybe), I'm not liking the FA class either (Foles can opt out of his contract so kind of like a FA). I think he's gonna grab a big contract next season so not worth it for the Giants. In 2020, draft the next QB. Sell the farm if you have to but that's when to draft a QB. Until then, the debate will never end. Hell, it will go on for years after they replace Eli.
USAF -- I'm a homer fan too. I love Eli hope / feel he deserves HOF.
BUT-- THIS GUY - THO EOP I'm speaking of- and anyone else who thinks eli right now is better than Matt Ryan now and in the futrue -- c'mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER.
Add that to -- ONLY LOOKING AT POINTS SCORED and COMPLETELY DISREGARDING INDIVIDUAL QB stats - then c;mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER. Looking to apoints scored vs QBR isn't just a 50-50 comparison. It's just so wrong to do look at points scored. Its not even close to being fair. Why have a QBRating?
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If your name suggests you served in the service USAF God Bless you and thank you for your service. Wihtthat said - I mean wiht total respect here - if you think what the OP is doing by being defiant about eli over Ryan and using "points scored" over QBR then I'm sorry you have gone off the reservation.
And as for trading up in 2020 we can respectfully agree to disagree. This team is devoid of talent at many positions. To have to trade talent away to get a Qb when we could possibly get a very good QB in 2019 such as Haskins (if Gmen feel he is good and if he comes out ofc) imo is an enormous blunder. We are depleting assets for a team that can't afford to do it. IMO that's an enormous blunder.
I heard once a GM say in baseball (I recognize its different than in football) thet he blundered by trying to build "the super team." To try for that super qb in 2020 by expending future assets which right now this team is devoid of rather than grab a solid QB in which you protect your future assets (draft picks) is the better play.
I realize you might not think Haskins is the guy but are you looking at him in terms of being super and because you dont think he is super he isn't worth it, or do you think he and the other QB's such as Jones just are average-at-best for the future?
Further- if you assess the Gmen next year and don't think they can be a contender next year -- what is ELi giving you? A few more wins to what end? Why not look to build as soons as possible with as much money as possible in order to enhance "the limited life" of a rb such as Barkley?
USAF -- I'm a homer fan too. I love Eli hope / feel he deserves HOF.
BUT-- THIS GUY - THO EOP I'm speaking of- and anyone else who thinks eli right now is better than Matt Ryan now and in the futrue -- c'mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER.
Add that to -- ONLY LOOKING AT POINTS SCORED and COMPLETELY DISREGARDING INDIVIDUAL QB stats - then c;mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER. Looking to apoints scored vs QBR isn't just a 50-50 comparison. It's just so wrong to do look at points scored. Its not even close to being fair. Why have a QBRating?
-------
If your name suggests you served in the service USAF God Bless you and thank you for your service. Wihtthat said - I mean wiht total respect here - if you think what the OP is doing by being defiant about eli over Ryan and using "points scored" over QBR then I'm sorry you have gone off the reservation.
And as for trading up in 2020 we can respectfully agree to disagree. This team is devoid of talent at many positions. To have to trade talent away to get a Qb when we could possibly get a very good QB in 2019 such as Haskins (if Gmen feel he is good and if he comes out ofc) imo is an enormous blunder. We are depleting assets for a team that can't afford to do it. IMO that's an enormous blunder.
I heard once a GM say in baseball (I recognize its different than in football) thet he blundered by trying to build "the super team." To try for that super qb in 2020 by expending future assets which right now this team is devoid of rather than grab a solid QB in which you protect your future assets (draft picks) is the better play.
I realize you might not think Haskins is the guy but are you looking at him in terms of being super and because you dont think he is super he isn't worth it, or do you think he and the other QB's such as Jones just are average-at-best for the future?
Further- if you assess the Gmen next year and don't think they can be a contender next year -- what is ELi giving you? A few more wins to what end? Why not look to build as soons as possible with as much money as possible in order to enhance "the limited life" of a rb such as Barkley?
It's completely ok that you disagree with me about Haskins. That's what we do in forums. I just don't think he has it. You can disagree with me about anything you like. What matters is what the Giants think. If they back Haskins or any other QB in 2019, I'll hope for the best. I just don't see it and I'm not alone. The majority of scouts and most of BBI here seem to think 2020 is a far better year for QBs.
As to disagreeing about selling out for the QB they want, they did that for Eli in the first place. Eagles did it for Wentz. I think there are a lot of holes to fill too which is why I don't want to waste picks. The Giants will enter QB hell and many think they are already there. There's multiple ways to handle it and still be in it. You can stay with a bad QB (I'm not saying Eli is bad) and not take chances in the draft or FA. Another way is to keep drafting busts at QB. I think it's better to improve the team around the QB while waiting for the closest sure thing they can draft. It's very rare to go from franchise QB to franchise QB. Favre to Rogers, Peyton to Luck, Montana to Young, etc. The odds of pulling that off are not in the Giants favor and the odds improve if you build a team that makes the QBs job easier. A better pass blocking OL and/or a better run blocking OL is a QBs best friend. Is Dak any good are does he benefit from a good to great OL? Does he benefit from a great run game? As a result, Dak is developing. Still don't think he will amount to much but he's got good pieces around him. If he started behind the Giants' OL, he'd probably be considered a bust by now. If another Andrew Luck comes along (who was considered a sure thing when drafted), yes you go all in. Sacrifice some picks for a game changer. I think they can/will patch a lot of holes in 2019 and will have more money for 2020's FAs since they now have a rookie QB. Again, just my opinion.
As to individual stats, for me it depends on the specific stat. You won't like it but I think QBR is the worst stat in all of sports. Too many variable are included already and it lacks many others that can't be calculated. I felt this way before Eli Manning and I'll feel that way after Eli Manning. For example, I felt Eli had 1 elite year (2011). People seem to forget he dragged that team (with a terrible defense and the worst rush offense in the league) to the playoffs. His rate in 2011 was 92.9. His rate in 2018 is 92.4. Just in case you think it's a different time now than then; The highest rate player in 2011 was Drew Brees at 110.6. The highest rated player now is Drew Brees at 115.7. Not a substantial increase. Looking at all of the other stats, Eli is average and in many cases, slightly above average.
As to the team stats, yes I think team stats are very telling. I don't think it's any surprise that once the OL improved, the run game improved. Then, in turn, the passing offense improved as well. Giants suddenly got more competitive after the bye (changes on the OL). If you notice, I also posted the stat that shows the defense allowed the most points of any other team in the NFC East as well. This is a very poor defense we are talking about. They are the 24th ranked defense. I am 100% sure that a better defense would have the Giants in the playoffs right now. The defense blew way too many leads this year and for me, the pass rush just has to improve to be more competitive.
I honestly believe that a great ER, an average RT, an average C, and the 2nd year in this new offense and defense make this a team with a winning record. Hold on to those players and get your QB the following year. I think the team is 2-3 years out of being legit contenders if Gettleman can play the FA and the draft right. If you play QB roulette, it will take longer and you will lose the good to great players in the process.
You're right that its okay to disagree that why we've been cordial. we're doing it.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
say what you want about Apple and Snacks, they can play football and would have helped considerably in the stretch, would it have mattered? No clue, but we were a weaker team for giving them up.
You're right that its okay to disagree that why we've been cordial. we're doing it.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
To your comment about the super running back...I would argue that the ability to run has been the missing element for a while. I think if you look back two years, the Giants scored like 6 rushing TDs. The last two seasons, our rushing game couldn’t function against cover 2 and dime defenses. The run game was sparked first by Barkley, then the run and pass games took another step forward by shoring up the right guard position. That created a run game that rightfully elevated both the run and the pass by opening play action and forcing defenses to respect the run.
It’s not surprising that going from zero run threat to a formidable one nade the difference. It would for any offense.
You're right that its okay to disagree that why we've been cordial. we're doing it.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
To your comment about the super running back...I would argue that the ability to run has been the missing element for a while. I think if you look back two years, the Giants scored like 6 rushing TDs. The last two seasons, our rushing game couldn’t function against cover 2 and dime defenses. The run game was sparked first by Barkley, then the run and pass games took another step forward by shoring up the right guard position. That created a run game that rightfully elevated both the run and the pass by opening play action and forcing defenses to respect the run.
It’s not surprising that going from zero run threat to a formidable one nade the difference. It would for any offense.
so the way the OP made it sound that is was a lot ot do with ELi - how much you htink?Equal? I don't.
ANd some of those holes Barkley busted how many rb;s would?
Wouldn't there have been a lot more qb;s that could have duplicated or exceeded what ELi did more tha likely?
If so what would be the best way to quantify it? Through the QB ratings even though they aren't that great?
Though its better than "points scored" correct? ISn't "points scored" laughable?
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. It’s been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
Especially the need for a young qb. It’s definitely an issue and needs to be addressed but for the sake of winning? The giants have other immediate needs and upgrading from Eli won’t be as easy as some insist on believing. Add it all up and it makes sense to draft bpa in a draft deep with the giants needs.
It took a while
djm : 11:10 pm : link : reply
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. It’s been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
After every loss, there are literally several posters who blame Eli regardless of the way the game unfolded. He either scored too early that allowed another team to come back or he didn't see a open WR and settled for a FG prior to the D letting up a losing drive.
And they say ridiculous things like "He's the only constant" or "he's the reason the team hasn't scored 30+ points in over a year".
Then, he goes out and helps the team break 30 points several times this year in a different offense and so other complaints come out like he's gunshy and immobile.
Meanwhile, the D just let up their 5th game-losing drive of the year after the offense took the lead.
Sounds logical to keep blaming Eli after every loss....
We improved by 8 points per game on offense from last year
We gave up over a point per gsme this year than last year.
We gave up 6 game losing or game tying drives this year alone. Losing 4 of them.
We were 26th in the NFL in 3rd down conversion on defense
We were last in the NFL in 4th down conversions (14 out of 17!!!!!)
We were tied for next to last in sacks
I am not sure what context this falls into... but to me... it’s really really fucking bad. And this isn’t to say our offense was great or we can’t imrpove. Our defense is fucking deplorable. And it was from game 2 of the year.
Especially the need for a young qb. It’s definitely an issue and needs to be addressed but for the sake of winning? The giants have other immediate needs and upgrading from Eli won’t be as easy as some insist on believing. Add it all up and it makes sense to draft bpa in a draft deep with the giants needs.
The sake of winning what? ANd the fact it won;t be so easy means you have to start as soon as you when you stink- meaning the moRe you are to .500 you can't get that very good-to-terrific QB unless you blunder and dramatically trade p in which the Gmen dont have the add'l personnel to make that successful. You're happy happy going 8-8 next year year then each year watch your starting QB decline as he;s doing right now before your eyes?
You are taking a short term gain with little concern for the long haul.
I think many of you are very naive on trading up and/or think it will be so simple to get the 2020 QB's.
**Further after you get the young QB it's going to take him 1 year to adjust. Juts because he puts on a Giants uniform won't make him superman. How is delaying a year for Barkley who has limited years because of a RB helpful?
It took a while
djm : 11:10 pm : link : reply
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. It’s been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
After every loss, there are literally several posters who blame Eli regardless of the way the game unfolded. He either scored too early that allowed another team to come back or he didn't see a open WR and settled for a FG prior to the D letting up a losing drive.
And they say ridiculous things like "He's the only constant" or "he's the reason the team hasn't scored 30+ points in over a year".
Then, he goes out and helps the team break 30 points several times this year in a different offense and so other complaints come out like he's gunshy and immobile.
Meanwhile, the D just let up their 5th game-losing drive of the year after the offense took the lead.
Sounds logical to keep blaming Eli after every loss....
after every loss there are posters for example the dude that started this thread that won't blame Eli for a thing. SO many apologists for eli. His QB rating is terrible and you have people agreeing with his silly
"points scored" argument. It;s laughable the fanboy-homerism for ELi.
Try explaining to any statistician that "points scored" is any way to accurately measure a QB and you'll gt them to cry laughing at the absurdity. This is the same guy who thinks ELi right now is better than matt Ryan.
We improved by 8 points per game on offense from last year
We gave up over a point per gsme this year than last year.
We gave up 6 game losing or game tying drives this year alone. Losing 4 of them.
We were 26th in the NFL in 3rd down conversion on defense
We were last in the NFL in 4th down conversions (14 out of 17!!!!!)
We were tied for next to last in sacks
I am not sure what context this falls into... but to me... it’s really really fucking bad. And this isn’t to say our offense was great or we can’t imrpove. Our defense is fucking deplorable. And it was from game 2 of the year.
The same bullshit Reese said after 2014 thinking the Oline was fixed. The same nonsense that you ignore thta we beat backup QB's which skwerd the numbers. The same bullshit that you cant grasp that guys like ELi get old and their play eventually suffers. The same bullshit you choose ot ignore when the QB rating stats show you he is subpar but yet you try to sneak the conversation into comparing last year. The same bullshit that you can;t comprehend that it isn;t easy to replace a QB so you choose ot ignore all the signs. Yeah thats smart. Is that you Jerry reese?
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. It’s been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
They won 11 games dragging the offense by the hair. That defense had to play until it was pissing blood and punch drunk. Let's absolutely not frame this as if defense has been the missing link with the franchise, because that's goddamn dishonest.
the last two weeks. Football Outsiders covered this.
New York Giants 27 at Indianapolis Colts 28
The Giants struggled to run the ball and were without Odell Beckham, but Eli Manning came to life in one of his best games of the season. Not many would have expected that with the Colts still having the postseason to play for, but the Giants had leads of 14-0, 24-14, and 27-21 on the day. There was a chance to put together a great drive to run out the clock, but backed up in their own end, the Giants stuck with Saquon Barkley on the ground and were fortunate to get a forward progress call to negate a potential fumble.
That three-and-out led to Andrew Luck only needing 53 yards to drive for the go-ahead touchdown in the final 3:43. Things never got too difficult for the Colts on the drive, but the Giants hurt themselves with two penalties on plays where they didn't even need to make contact with the receivers. After getting a first-and-goal at the 1, Luck threw a touchdown pass to Chester Rogers on a natural pick play with 55 seconds left. Adam Vinatieri hit the go-ahead extra point for the Colts' first and only lead of the day.
You give Andrew Luck a short field because you can't run the clock out with the same offense that ripped up and down the field all day, then trash the defense, full of replacement players, for not pulling a rabbit out of a hat against a top-level quarterback.
Dallas Cowboys 36 at New York Giants 35
Normally, 1:12 would be a little too early to go for a two-or-die, but these were special circumstances. Prescott made the pass work to Michael Gallup, and the Cowboys led 36-35. However, a taunting penalty threatened to end Dallas' celebration quickly. That led to a short kickoff that the Giants returned to their own 48, leaving Eli Manning in great position to lead a game-winning field goal drive. But like last week in Indianapolis when the Giants trailed by a single point, Manning was unable to move the offense. He threw four incompletions in a row, with Cody Latimer unable to come down with the ball on fourth-and-10. The Giants finished 2-7 at game-winning drive opportunities this season. Prescott has as many game-winning drives (14) in his three-year career as Manning has led in the last six seasons combined.
We can go back and forth over who you want to blame for the 'close games losses', but right here are two incidents of the offense failing to take a W that was on the table. Even with a bad defense. They didn't even need touchdowns here. They just had to get to reasonable field position.
eli ranking was 7th in 11 and 21st this year. qbr is very different today irrespective of the high score being similar.
His qbr espn rating was top 5 in 11, terrible today.
this is consistent with the eyeball test as well.
we use aggregate stats yet dog these ratings when they often describe roughly (not absolutely) with some accuracy......
I stand by what I posted. QBR is the worst stat in all of sports. Always has been, always will be. I don't care which version of QBR (ESPNs QBR or the old school passer rating) is used. The very version you are referring to started in 2011, true enough. However it was modified in 2012 and then again in 2013. The simple fact that they have multiple versions of it and/or different modifications to it should tell you something.
It's a BS stat. Always has been and always will be.
As to the eyeball test, that's subjective to the owner of the eyeball. I've already stated that the only decline in Eli's play I see is that the game is getting faster on him. That does happen to be a significant issue. I don't see less zip on the ball. I don't see less mobility because he never had any in the first place. I don't see him making or missing the tough throws any more or less than he did before. I do see the game getting faster on him (or he's not thinking fast enough). It could be from several years behind a shit OL. It could be a decline from age. It could be learning his 3rd new system. Maybe it's a combination of all three. That's what my eyeball sees.
RE: Let's really go back and look at the situational offense in context Â
the last two weeks. Football Outsiders covered this.
New York Giants 27 at Indianapolis Colts 28
The Giants struggled to run the ball and were without Odell Beckham, but Eli Manning came to life in one of his best games of the season. Not many would have expected that with the Colts still having the postseason to play for, but the Giants had leads of 14-0, 24-14, and 27-21 on the day. There was a chance to put together a great drive to run out the clock, but backed up in their own end, the Giants stuck with Saquon Barkley on the ground and were fortunate to get a forward progress call to negate a potential fumble.
That three-and-out led to Andrew Luck only needing 53 yards to drive for the go-ahead touchdown in the final 3:43. Things never got too difficult for the Colts on the drive, but the Giants hurt themselves with two penalties on plays where they didn't even need to make contact with the receivers. After getting a first-and-goal at the 1, Luck threw a touchdown pass to Chester Rogers on a natural pick play with 55 seconds left. Adam Vinatieri hit the go-ahead extra point for the Colts' first and only lead of the day.
You give Andrew Luck a short field because you can't run the clock out with the same offense that ripped up and down the field all day, then trash the defense, full of replacement players, for not pulling a rabbit out of a hat against a top-level quarterback.
Dallas Cowboys 36 at New York Giants 35
Normally, 1:12 would be a little too early to go for a two-or-die, but these were special circumstances. Prescott made the pass work to Michael Gallup, and the Cowboys led 36-35. However, a taunting penalty threatened to end Dallas' celebration quickly. That led to a short kickoff that the Giants returned to their own 48, leaving Eli Manning in great position to lead a game-winning field goal drive. But like last week in Indianapolis when the Giants trailed by a single point, Manning was unable to move the offense. He threw four incompletions in a row, with Cody Latimer unable to come down with the ball on fourth-and-10. The Giants finished 2-7 at game-winning drive opportunities this season. Prescott has as many game-winning drives (14) in his three-year career as Manning has led in the last six seasons combined.
We can go back and forth over who you want to blame for the 'close games losses', but right here are two incidents of the offense failing to take a W that was on the table. Even with a bad defense. They didn't even need touchdowns here. They just had to get to reasonable field position.
How dare you blame Eli - for anything. Every one of his passes should have been caught. The Wr's must've ran the wrong routes no doubt.
You're right that its okay to disagree that why we've been cordial. we're doing it.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
I never said points scored is more accurate than QBRating but since I think QBRating is a BS stat, sure I think "points scored" in context to the rest of the division is more telling. However, that's not the stat that I posted. The stat that I posted showed that the Giants defense allowed the most points in the division. I've seen this same argument when comparing Eli Manning to Big Ben and Rivers. I'm sorry but the fact that both Rivers and Big Ben have had, on average (and it's not even close), better defenses and run games than Eli Manning over the course of their careers is very very important to factor in. Also, sorry, but I won't be forced into a cherry-picked generalization with Bortles as a comparison.
I'm not directly suggesting bringing back Eli because he's some great QB. I'm suggesting that's the best option they have. If the Giants think a better option is there for 2019 and they go for it, I'll support my team and hope for the best. What I said was I don't want to play QB roulette with our top draft picks on maybe QBs. I'll hang with Eli for another year. I probably said it in a different thread but I think the team can make the playoffs next year with a great pass rusher, an above average RT and average OC.
As to my examples, I picked two random examples off the top of my head. There are others. My point is the Giants don't already have Rogers sitting on their bench like the Packers did waiting on Favre to retire. 49ers already had Young. The Colts "sucked for Luck". I don't know you but were you around to watch through the wait between Simms and Eli. It was a whole bunch of missed draft picks and half measures. You bet against the house and the house wins most of the time. That's just the way it is. I'll at least wait for a decent hand before I put any significant amount of chips in. When I'm real confident in my hand, I go all in. None of the QBs last year were worth a 2nd (i.e. Barkley was/is). None of the QBs in 2019 are worth a 6th IMHO but I will have faith in Gettleman if he chooses otherwise.
As for the GM never trading down, it's getting annoying reading this. He's had what, 5 different drafts to work with so far. It hasn't occurred to anyone that he just hasn't come across a good opportunity to do so yet. I read the same thing here about Reese not drafting a RB in the 1st round. Then Reese drafted Wilson. I would hope Gettleman learned some things since his last GM stint and he's only drafted for the Giants once so far (of which btw I feel he did an excellent job). In case you haven't noticed, he's already compiled himself quite of few extra draft picks for 2019 which gives him a lot of options (even lower rounds). Might be able to roll some of the picks over to 2020. Maybe even pick up some more for 2020. Point is, he is creating more options for himself. I don't think he plans on staying pat with his extra 4th, 5th, and 7th round picks.
way the Eli argument stopped making sense on both sides. If you say anything anti Eli you get attacked and if you say something pro Eli you also get attacked. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
For most people I think the sensible thing to realize is the Giants are looking for a QB. Maybe not to start next year but Eli isn’t gonna be around in a few years.
Eli hasn’t been the main problem with the team, if you think that you are going too far, but I think he is part of the problem. We need to really change things up because 8 wins in 2 years is pathetic. Going back further it doesn’t really look that much better. The Giants need to get more from the QB position, as do a lot of teams.
It’s safe to say that unless Eli retires he will most likely be the starter for 2019. If you root for him to play poorly or look past things that are his fault all you are doing is driving yourself crazy. He’s had a good career with the Giants and I have been happy to cheer for him, but things like he deserves respect, and all the sentimentality that goes around doesn’t make our team better.
way the Eli argument stopped making sense on both sides. If you say anything anti Eli you get attacked and if you say something pro Eli you also get attacked. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
For most people I think the sensible thing to realize is the Giants are looking for a QB. Maybe not to start next year but Eli isn’t gonna be around in a few years.
Eli hasn’t been the main problem with the team, if you think that you are going too far, but I think he is part of the problem. We need to really change things up because 8 wins in 2 years is pathetic. Going back further it doesn’t really look that much better. The Giants need to get more from the QB position, as do a lot of teams.
It’s safe to say that unless Eli retires he will most likely be the starter for 2019. If you root for him to play poorly or look past things that are his fault all you are doing is driving yourself crazy. He’s had a good career with the Giants and I have been happy to cheer for him, but things like he deserves respect, and all the sentimentality that goes around doesn’t make our team better.
Its too late to write my response to USAF (I'll write him something over relief then more much later)and to you but as far as your point you are misconstruing mine. I never said eli was the number 1 reason. It's the thread thatI conmplained about and the absurdity of using "points scored" and now it's gone to between USAF and I - he seems to think list has some validity. I'll respond to that - I dont want to post direct to yo what I'm going to sya to him.
But don't misreprseent my points. My points were that theOP is an eli-fanboy that uses every excuse to excuse Eli. Do you really think "points scored" has validity in giving Eli all thecredit as the op seems to suggest? If you are fair -- wouldn't ti stand ot reason that each situation is different and sometimes it can be a super RB or super wr or a super OLine. The op always makes his points about Eli.
Plus what type of morn thinks this year and in the future eli is better than Matt ryan for a season?
So all of this means I'm a poster who blames him for everything/ I don't. I just believe if Haskins is high up and is close to the other guys you got to take him. My view he looks good so does Bleacher report, walter Camp, Sb Nation, NBC sports, Sporting News, Mel Kiper, Fotballmaven, Thunderdogpsorts. - ANd Pro football weekly had an article in October saying hsi stock was rising as the 1st qb to be taken only after 6 games but the writer expressed caution that he had to see more. SO he didnt assign a number but so far he's been off thecharts.
SO I ihave to listen ot bullshit form the OP about the absurdity of points scored and I have yet to see much bad press that Haskins wont be a top ten pick instead I her stuff that supposedly "anyways" think he should stay which is basically said by those that imo desperately want to keep Eli. Otherwise show the articles - I can provide all the links I just told you.
does this mean I'm blamming Eli for everything? I'm just disagreeing with those that seem to want to give eli what I feel an enormous pass along with I feel a QB should be taken 1st as a priority if the QB is near the rating of the 6th pick.
I see you made a comment about "being annoyed" with my comment of DG doesn't trade down. It's our 1st "annoyance" of one another's posts. I mean this with respect; I don't care that you are annoyed.IMO if you want to close your eyes on the past and says it's he hasn't had the oportunity and ignore data just as you ignore the QBR data thats your business. Bu I suppose many of us are going to keep "annoying you" until he shows the creativity to do it.
But as i posted on another thread a while back in which I hammered DG - I brought up that I dont think the guy has shown the creativity to be other than blunt instrument. His projection of the team to be a winning team this year was absurd just as he was joking / putting down analytics.
Until he shows me I don't assume - because I don think he's very bright. So if I dont think hes veyr bright -- you being annoyed any tome I or someone else mentions he hasnt traded down means nothing. You can mention "tommorrow" or "another day" you are annoyed by this if I say it-- but i don't care. Only a blunt instrument would probably lok at 2016 at 11-5 then the next year then assume the team will be wining again. Any goofball can claim that after 2016 and think his hogmollie laugh at analytics style way will turn it around instead of doing adequate due diligence. IMO its more creative to walk others through why it wasn't going to happen.
Further, in part I disagree with nearly everything you said. We are G-men fans but with your "eyeball test" and "points scored pov" i htink is nothing more that "witch doctor analysis" - thus imo you look at nearly everything wrong. It doesn;t matter. w dont make the decisions anyways but I'll also add the QB rating is in part quantifying your eyeball test of Eli which is why I think you're wrong about QBR there too. No projection stat evaluating who is best is perfect. But its a lot better that points scored. As staed you or anyoen else cant account for the super rb or super wr or ol - you can;t quantify it. Then the OP just goes off and pretends it's about Eli and it seems like you are agreeing with him -- but you havent come out either way. It;s juts so wrong to think it's all Eli as the OP seems intent on doing. If he didnt let him come out and say it. That he doesnt know how much was Eli. Nor do you. Nor od i. I dont think it;s as much as the OP though.
As we get older we also down in many areas as Eli has.
I wonder if our "friend" the OP can even accept that.
I was not aiming my post at you whatsoever. I was more saying that what makes people like or dislike Eli is the inability for anyone to say anything positive or negative without it becoming a Eli argument. I don’t mean you do this, it’s just what BBI has evolved into on the subject.
after every loss there are posters for example the dude that started this thread that won't blame Eli for a thing. SO many apologists for eli. His QB rating is terrible and you have people agreeing with his silly
"points scored" argument. It;s laughable the fanboy-homerism for ELi.
Try explaining to any statistician that "points scored" is any way to accurately measure a QB and you'll gt them to cry laughing at the absurdity. This is the same guy who thinks ELi right now is better than matt Ryan.
Can you really point to any posters who don't think Eli is part of the problem?
We are a bad football team and have been for some time. Everyone deserves to shoulder a portion of the blame.
I think part of the reason you see support for Eli isn't just because he's the starting QB for the team we root for, but because of the over-the-top commentary after almost any loss. When you have a particular poster who uses terms like the Cult of Eli or eli fanboys in nearly every one of his posts, it is easy to see why you would have people respond to refute that fucking drivel.
I don't think I can name a single poster who thinks Eli is above blame or that he hasn't contributed to the poor seasons. I can find several posters who truly believe that eli is the root of the problem
That posters blame Eli and the offense for losses where we scored 27 points on the road and 35, yes 35!!!! , at home against one of the best defenses in the NFL cause of a failed drive at the end.
People say I cherry pick stats? GTFO. When people start using QBR as a mean to judge the offense over points fucking scored... you know an agenda is being pushed.
That posters blame Eli and the offense for losses where we scored 27 points on the road and 35, yes 35!!!! , at home against one of the best defenses in the NFL cause of a failed drive at the end.
People say I cherry pick stats? GTFO. When people start using QBR as a mean to judge the offense over points fucking scored... you know an agenda is being pushed.
But only if we had Matt Ryan.... LMFAO.
While you do certainly have a point on the defensive side,(but you and every fan knew what would happen there), failing to move the team 1 yard while at midfield with 72 seconds and 2 TOs is pretty lame. It was a drive teed up for success and I absolutely thought he would get it done. They only needed 15-20 yards.
However it was actually a good thing. Probably gained 4 spots in the draft.
We we were going to get the yardage needed. But guess what? Their team played defense and got stops. We didn’t have guys flying wide open all over the place.
35 points... thirty-five!!!! People just assume that since you need only “x” amount of yards that it’s so easy to get. Remember Be against Denver? Brady against Pitt? Baker last week against Baltimore? Ben against the Saints?
Offenses aren’t guaranteed to score just because you have good field position or just need a FG.
The fact that some posters here don’t wanna admit is that we have much bigger holes to fill than QB. And they refuse to see it. We all know Eli isn’t the best QB anymore but with an average defense.... we could have made the playoffs this year.
Mattyblue, we are actually very very close on this. I agree with nearly everything you last said. EVERYTHING on this board is about Eli Manning right now. EVERYTHING. Every Op seems to be taking a shot one way or the other and every reply seems to retort or agree. It's funny really. My original post was talking about how funny that is to me. There are very few people in the middle somewhere about it. Everyone seems to be taking an extreme pro or con view about it. The part I disagree with only slightly is that Eli is part of the problem but I think this may just be semantics. There wasn't a single game this year that I said to myself "Eli lost us that game". Nor was there any game that I said "We only won that game because of Eli". He is average now. The Giants need to always be looking for better at every position but until they are confident better is there to take, get better somewhere else that is there for the taking.
Giantstock, I'm not annoyed with you specifically as several people say the same thing. I also get annoyed when people say that Eli didn't earn his SB MVPs because the defense won those. it's simply wrong. As to you claiming you are not assuming Gettleman is willing to trade back because he hasn't done it before is, in fact, an assumption. You are assuming he won't trade back because he's never done it before but he hasn't even had that many opportunities to do so. I still believe Gettleman is capable of making any available decision during the draft and is open to all options. I'm not making the assumption, you are. If there was some kind of legitimate evidence to support that Gettleman doesn't consider trade downs, you might have something. Simply not doing it yet does not a case make. It's like saying if you rolled a couple dice 5 times and never got snake eyes, you never will. This is a logical fallacy. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Additionally, you continue to be stuck on this point scored thing. Like I believe this be some all great measurement. All I'm saying is it does matter. It does say something. You make it sound like I think it's the most important stat in the world. I'll remind you for the last time that I followed up with the defense allowing more points stat as I thought that was more telling. You seem to be having trouble getting past that point. You're the one fixated on it. I'm not. If you think that a team's OL doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think that a team's defense doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the run game doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the game plan doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think penalties doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think etc. etc. etc. Now, how much of that information really goes into the QBR?
As to Dep, yea, he's Eli's biggest defender on here and I don't fault him for that. There are just as many on the opposite side that constantly bash Eli that you seem to discount. It's gotten ridiculous on both sides of that coin. I'm thankful to Dep on occasions when someone post something ridiculous about Eli (i.e. Eli didn't win the SBs, the defense did) because I get ready to post and then say to myself, nah, Dep will get this. I'm saying it's funny because people miss the fact that the team did improve this year. The arrow is pointed up. Shurmer and Gettleman are making moves and seeing what they have for the future. Trying different things. They just don't see a better QB available yet. All these posters demanding a change at QB that either don't back it up with another legit option, want to gamble away a top pick on a maybe, or recommend worse alternatives. So many people on here are so blinded by the Eli Manning debate that they can't see the forest through the trees. The team will figure this out. They've done so 4 times now which is better than the large majority of the league.
qbr is not some perfect stat, but when I see the guys who are stars typically at the top of qbr there is a strong correlation to it and actual performance. where it goes wrong is when you state player x is better than player y because his qbr was two points higher in a given year.
but when a player is ranking mediocre consistenly over the span of a few years, that stat is not typically lying. now there are macro issues affecting the offense so some blame goes to the o line.
i certainly prefer qbr and wins to other aggregate stats used here so often, of course we may not agree.
i do also agree way too much is made out of Eli here regarding his contribution to the losing.
However, regarding the issue of his age and the enormous challenge of finding his replacement this is priority 1a for the giants. This team has stars on the offense and is designed to be great on o. they won’t be able to invest in d they was they are on o and the goal will be to upgrade to the point of being respectable. This can reasonably be done with a draft some natural improvement of young players and some free agent signings.
The qb is a much tougher find and i agree with Giantstock here-the Giants have to look at haskins, the pick at 6 is known and will the team be in a position to pick one of the 2020 crop?
Ridiculous
TC was scapegoated too, how did that work out?
You think I meant every Eli fan is fanboy-homer? I'm an Eli fan. ButI think you missed my context. I brought up an example to him-- who do you think was better this year Matt Ryan or Eli? WHo is the better Qb going forward (not career)?
I's sokay to be an Eli fan and not have to kiss his feet, right?
It had been a few years and I wondered if Eli & Co. knew they were supposed to do so...
But that is probably just me not paying as close attention...
Well LG, I’m afraid I’m forced to name 2. One doesn’t live in this country and the other noted above that the offense got better when we started playing against backup quarterbacks. Maybe it was a typo and he meant backup cornerbacks. Coulda been...
Christ.
Christ.
And that's because Eli Manning is so much better than Matt Ryan:
QB Rating
Matt Ryan: 108.1
Eli Manning: 92.4
Completions
Matt Ryan: 422
Eli Manning: 380
Attempts
Matt Ryan: 608
Eli Manning: 576
Pct. Completion
Matt Ryan: 69.4
Eli Manning: 66.0
Passing Yardage
Matt Ryan: 4,924
Eli Manning: 4,299
Passing Yards per Attempt
Matt Ryan: 8.1
Eli Manning: 7.5
TDs / INTs
Matt Ryan: 35 / 7
Eli Manning: 21 / 11
Bottom line is Eli could once carry the team as he did in 2011. Yes, Eli did carry that team into the playoffs and continued his great play into the playoffs. It doesn't look like he can do that anymore. Does he have to carry the team now? Looks like Barkley can do that with a good run game. Also, as they haven't made the playoffs, I'm not sure he can step up as he's done in the past during the post-season either. He is neither part of the solution or part of the problem. He is average right now. Still capable of making some amazing throws but it does appear that the game is getting faster on him (as opposed to wanting to hear rookies say how the game is slowing down for them). I don't see a decline in his arm. He's never been mobile. It's just the game seems to be moving faster on him now. He's still better than all the other current options out there though.
Until the Giants find that next level QB (the heir apparent if you will) the conversation is mute. I, for one, don't want to gamble draft picks on a maybe. 2020 looks like the best opportunity to take a shot at a QB. I'm not liking the 2019 draft class and didn't like the 2018 draft class either. Except for maybe Foles (big maybe), I'm not liking the FA class either (Foles can opt out of his contract so kind of like a FA). I think he's gonna grab a big contract next season so not worth it for the Giants. In 2020, draft the next QB. Sell the farm if you have to but that's when to draft a QB. Until then, the debate will never end. Hell, it will go on for years after they replace Eli.
You forgot that stat M.S.
I remember all offseason people praising Kirk Cousins and his amazing stats. How’d that turn out?
Bottom line is Eli could once carry the team as he did in 2011. Yes, Eli did carry that team into the playoffs and continued his great play into the playoffs. It doesn't look like he can do that anymore. Does he have to carry the team now? Looks like Barkley can do that with a good run game. Also, as they haven't made the playoffs, I'm not sure he can step up as he's done in the past during the post-season either. He is neither part of the solution or part of the problem. He is average right now. Still capable of making some amazing throws but it does appear that the game is getting faster on him (as opposed to wanting to hear rookies say how the game is slowing down for them). I don't see a decline in his arm. He's never been mobile. It's just the game seems to be moving faster on him now. He's still better than all the other current options out there though.
Until the Giants find that next level QB (the heir apparent if you will) the conversation is mute. I, for one, don't want to gamble draft picks on a maybe. 2020 looks like the best opportunity to take a shot at a QB. I'm not liking the 2019 draft class and didn't like the 2018 draft class either. Except for maybe Foles (big maybe), I'm not liking the FA class either (Foles can opt out of his contract so kind of like a FA). I think he's gonna grab a big contract next season so not worth it for the Giants. In 2020, draft the next QB. Sell the farm if you have to but that's when to draft a QB. Until then, the debate will never end. Hell, it will go on for years after they replace Eli.
USAF -- I'm a homer fan too. I love Eli hope / feel he deserves HOF.
BUT-- THIS GUY - THO EOP I'm speaking of- and anyone else who thinks eli right now is better than Matt Ryan now and in the futrue -- c'mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER.
Add that to -- ONLY LOOKING AT POINTS SCORED and COMPLETELY DISREGARDING INDIVIDUAL QB stats - then c;mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER. Looking to apoints scored vs QBR isn't just a 50-50 comparison. It's just so wrong to do look at points scored. Its not even close to being fair. Why have a QBRating?
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If your name suggests you served in the service USAF God Bless you and thank you for your service. Wihtthat said - I mean wiht total respect here - if you think what the OP is doing by being defiant about eli over Ryan and using "points scored" over QBR then I'm sorry you have gone off the reservation.
And as for trading up in 2020 we can respectfully agree to disagree. This team is devoid of talent at many positions. To have to trade talent away to get a Qb when we could possibly get a very good QB in 2019 such as Haskins (if Gmen feel he is good and if he comes out ofc) imo is an enormous blunder. We are depleting assets for a team that can't afford to do it. IMO that's an enormous blunder.
I heard once a GM say in baseball (I recognize its different than in football) thet he blundered by trying to build "the super team." To try for that super qb in 2020 by expending future assets which right now this team is devoid of rather than grab a solid QB in which you protect your future assets (draft picks) is the better play.
I realize you might not think Haskins is the guy but are you looking at him in terms of being super and because you dont think he is super he isn't worth it, or do you think he and the other QB's such as Jones just are average-at-best for the future?
Further- if you assess the Gmen next year and don't think they can be a contender next year -- what is ELi giving you? A few more wins to what end? Why not look to build as soons as possible with as much money as possible in order to enhance "the limited life" of a rb such as Barkley?
You forgot that stat M.S.
I remember all offseason people praising Kirk Cousins and his amazing stats. How’d that turn out?
QB Rating
Kirk Cousins: 99.7
Eli Manning: 92.4
Completions
MKirk Cousins: 425
Eli Manning: 380
Attempts
Kirk Cousins: 606
Eli Manning: 576
Pct. Completion
Kirk Cousins: 70.1
Eli Manning: 66.0
Passing Yardage
Kirk Cousins: 4,298
Eli Manning: 4,299
Passing Yards per Attempt
Kirk Cousins: 7.1
Eli Manning: 7.5
TDs / INTs
Kirk Cousins: 30 / 10
Eli Manning: 21 / 11
Good lord.
Good lord.
Hit the liquor too early, *Ryan
I’ll await the results from your abacus.
Quote:
USAF -- I'm a homer fan too. I love Eli hope / feel he deserves HOF.
BUT-- THIS GUY - THO EOP I'm speaking of- and anyone else who thinks eli right now is better than Matt Ryan now and in the futrue -- c'mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER.
Add that to -- ONLY LOOKING AT POINTS SCORED and COMPLETELY DISREGARDING INDIVIDUAL QB stats - then c;mon that guy who thinks that is MORE THAN JUST A HOMER. Looking to apoints scored vs QBR isn't just a 50-50 comparison. It's just so wrong to do look at points scored. Its not even close to being fair. Why have a QBRating?
-------
If your name suggests you served in the service USAF God Bless you and thank you for your service. Wihtthat said - I mean wiht total respect here - if you think what the OP is doing by being defiant about eli over Ryan and using "points scored" over QBR then I'm sorry you have gone off the reservation.
And as for trading up in 2020 we can respectfully agree to disagree. This team is devoid of talent at many positions. To have to trade talent away to get a Qb when we could possibly get a very good QB in 2019 such as Haskins (if Gmen feel he is good and if he comes out ofc) imo is an enormous blunder. We are depleting assets for a team that can't afford to do it. IMO that's an enormous blunder.
I heard once a GM say in baseball (I recognize its different than in football) thet he blundered by trying to build "the super team." To try for that super qb in 2020 by expending future assets which right now this team is devoid of rather than grab a solid QB in which you protect your future assets (draft picks) is the better play.
I realize you might not think Haskins is the guy but are you looking at him in terms of being super and because you dont think he is super he isn't worth it, or do you think he and the other QB's such as Jones just are average-at-best for the future?
Further- if you assess the Gmen next year and don't think they can be a contender next year -- what is ELi giving you? A few more wins to what end? Why not look to build as soons as possible with as much money as possible in order to enhance "the limited life" of a rb such as Barkley?
It's completely ok that you disagree with me about Haskins. That's what we do in forums. I just don't think he has it. You can disagree with me about anything you like. What matters is what the Giants think. If they back Haskins or any other QB in 2019, I'll hope for the best. I just don't see it and I'm not alone. The majority of scouts and most of BBI here seem to think 2020 is a far better year for QBs.
As to disagreeing about selling out for the QB they want, they did that for Eli in the first place. Eagles did it for Wentz. I think there are a lot of holes to fill too which is why I don't want to waste picks. The Giants will enter QB hell and many think they are already there. There's multiple ways to handle it and still be in it. You can stay with a bad QB (I'm not saying Eli is bad) and not take chances in the draft or FA. Another way is to keep drafting busts at QB. I think it's better to improve the team around the QB while waiting for the closest sure thing they can draft. It's very rare to go from franchise QB to franchise QB. Favre to Rogers, Peyton to Luck, Montana to Young, etc. The odds of pulling that off are not in the Giants favor and the odds improve if you build a team that makes the QBs job easier. A better pass blocking OL and/or a better run blocking OL is a QBs best friend. Is Dak any good are does he benefit from a good to great OL? Does he benefit from a great run game? As a result, Dak is developing. Still don't think he will amount to much but he's got good pieces around him. If he started behind the Giants' OL, he'd probably be considered a bust by now. If another Andrew Luck comes along (who was considered a sure thing when drafted), yes you go all in. Sacrifice some picks for a game changer. I think they can/will patch a lot of holes in 2019 and will have more money for 2020's FAs since they now have a rookie QB. Again, just my opinion.
As to individual stats, for me it depends on the specific stat. You won't like it but I think QBR is the worst stat in all of sports. Too many variable are included already and it lacks many others that can't be calculated. I felt this way before Eli Manning and I'll feel that way after Eli Manning. For example, I felt Eli had 1 elite year (2011). People seem to forget he dragged that team (with a terrible defense and the worst rush offense in the league) to the playoffs. His rate in 2011 was 92.9. His rate in 2018 is 92.4. Just in case you think it's a different time now than then; The highest rate player in 2011 was Drew Brees at 110.6. The highest rated player now is Drew Brees at 115.7. Not a substantial increase. Looking at all of the other stats, Eli is average and in many cases, slightly above average.
As to the team stats, yes I think team stats are very telling. I don't think it's any surprise that once the OL improved, the run game improved. Then, in turn, the passing offense improved as well. Giants suddenly got more competitive after the bye (changes on the OL). If you notice, I also posted the stat that shows the defense allowed the most points of any other team in the NFC East as well. This is a very poor defense we are talking about. They are the 24th ranked defense. I am 100% sure that a better defense would have the Giants in the playoffs right now. The defense blew way too many leads this year and for me, the pass rush just has to improve to be more competitive.
I honestly believe that a great ER, an average RT, an average C, and the 2nd year in this new offense and defense make this a team with a winning record. Hold on to those players and get your QB the following year. I think the team is 2-3 years out of being legit contenders if Gettleman can play the FA and the draft right. If you play QB roulette, it will take longer and you will lose the good to great players in the process.
His qbr espn rating was top 5 in 11, terrible today.
this is consistent with the eyeball test as well.
we use aggregate stats yet dog these ratings when they often describe roughly (not absolutely) with some accuracy......
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
Seconded
Quote:
This year, next year, or any year.
Christ.
And that's because Eli Manning is so much better than Matt Ryan:
QB Rating
Matt Ryan: 108.1
Eli Manning: 92.4
Completions
Matt Ryan: 422
Eli Manning: 380
Attempts
Matt Ryan: 608
Eli Manning: 576
Pct. Completion
Matt Ryan: 69.4
Eli Manning: 66.0
Passing Yardage
Matt Ryan: 4,924
Eli Manning: 4,299
Passing Yards per Attempt
Matt Ryan: 8.1
Eli Manning: 7.5
TDs / INTs
Matt Ryan: 35 / 7
Eli Manning: 21 / 11
Matf Ryan does play half his games in a dome
No because they had the best defense in the NFL. More possessions, shorter fields...
Our defense was absolute putrid and has been for years outside of 2016. At some point you have to fix that as well.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
To your comment about the super running back...I would argue that the ability to run has been the missing element for a while. I think if you look back two years, the Giants scored like 6 rushing TDs. The last two seasons, our rushing game couldn’t function against cover 2 and dime defenses. The run game was sparked first by Barkley, then the run and pass games took another step forward by shoring up the right guard position. That created a run game that rightfully elevated both the run and the pass by opening play action and forcing defenses to respect the run.
It’s not surprising that going from zero run threat to a formidable one nade the difference. It would for any offense.
Quote:
You're right that its okay to disagree that why we've been cordial. we're doing it.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
To your comment about the super running back...I would argue that the ability to run has been the missing element for a while. I think if you look back two years, the Giants scored like 6 rushing TDs. The last two seasons, our rushing game couldn’t function against cover 2 and dime defenses. The run game was sparked first by Barkley, then the run and pass games took another step forward by shoring up the right guard position. That created a run game that rightfully elevated both the run and the pass by opening play action and forcing defenses to respect the run.
It’s not surprising that going from zero run threat to a formidable one nade the difference. It would for any offense.
so the way the OP made it sound that is was a lot ot do with ELi - how much you htink?Equal? I don't.
ANd some of those holes Barkley busted how many rb;s would?
Wouldn't there have been a lot more qb;s that could have duplicated or exceeded what ELi did more tha likely?
If so what would be the best way to quantify it? Through the QB ratings even though they aren't that great?
Though its better than "points scored" correct? ISn't "points scored" laughable?
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. It’s been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
welcome to the next 6 months.
This thread was necessary.
The key stat is 5-11.
You will never accept that the biggest problems on this team in order:
Defense at all levels starting with the LBs and ERs all the way to the secondary.
Oline.
How can you not see that?
djm : 11:10 pm : link : reply
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. It’s been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
After every loss, there are literally several posters who blame Eli regardless of the way the game unfolded. He either scored too early that allowed another team to come back or he didn't see a open WR and settled for a FG prior to the D letting up a losing drive.
And they say ridiculous things like "He's the only constant" or "he's the reason the team hasn't scored 30+ points in over a year".
Then, he goes out and helps the team break 30 points several times this year in a different offense and so other complaints come out like he's gunshy and immobile.
Meanwhile, the D just let up their 5th game-losing drive of the year after the offense took the lead.
Sounds logical to keep blaming Eli after every loss....
We gave up over a point per gsme this year than last year.
We gave up 6 game losing or game tying drives this year alone. Losing 4 of them.
We were 26th in the NFL in 3rd down conversion on defense
We were last in the NFL in 4th down conversions (14 out of 17!!!!!)
We were tied for next to last in sacks
I am not sure what context this falls into... but to me... it’s really really fucking bad. And this isn’t to say our offense was great or we can’t imrpove. Our defense is fucking deplorable. And it was from game 2 of the year.
The sake of winning what? ANd the fact it won;t be so easy means you have to start as soon as you when you stink- meaning the moRe you are to .500 you can't get that very good-to-terrific QB unless you blunder and dramatically trade p in which the Gmen dont have the add'l personnel to make that successful. You're happy happy going 8-8 next year year then each year watch your starting QB decline as he;s doing right now before your eyes?
You are taking a short term gain with little concern for the long haul.
I think many of you are very naive on trading up and/or think it will be so simple to get the 2020 QB's.
**Further after you get the young QB it's going to take him 1 year to adjust. Juts because he puts on a Giants uniform won't make him superman. How is delaying a year for Barkley who has limited years because of a RB helpful?
Quote:
It took a while
djm : 11:10 pm : link : reply
But most fans should be able to see the light by now.
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. It’s been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
After every loss, there are literally several posters who blame Eli regardless of the way the game unfolded. He either scored too early that allowed another team to come back or he didn't see a open WR and settled for a FG prior to the D letting up a losing drive.
And they say ridiculous things like "He's the only constant" or "he's the reason the team hasn't scored 30+ points in over a year".
Then, he goes out and helps the team break 30 points several times this year in a different offense and so other complaints come out like he's gunshy and immobile.
Meanwhile, the D just let up their 5th game-losing drive of the year after the offense took the lead.
Sounds logical to keep blaming Eli after every loss....
after every loss there are posters for example the dude that started this thread that won't blame Eli for a thing. SO many apologists for eli. His QB rating is terrible and you have people agreeing with his silly
"points scored" argument. It;s laughable the fanboy-homerism for ELi.
Try explaining to any statistician that "points scored" is any way to accurately measure a QB and you'll gt them to cry laughing at the absurdity. This is the same guy who thinks ELi right now is better than matt Ryan.
We gave up over a point per gsme this year than last year.
We gave up 6 game losing or game tying drives this year alone. Losing 4 of them.
We were 26th in the NFL in 3rd down conversion on defense
We were last in the NFL in 4th down conversions (14 out of 17!!!!!)
We were tied for next to last in sacks
I am not sure what context this falls into... but to me... it’s really really fucking bad. And this isn’t to say our offense was great or we can’t imrpove. Our defense is fucking deplorable. And it was from game 2 of the year.
The same bullshit Reese said after 2014 thinking the Oline was fixed. The same nonsense that you ignore thta we beat backup QB's which skwerd the numbers. The same bullshit that you cant grasp that guys like ELi get old and their play eventually suffers. The same bullshit you choose ot ignore when the QB rating stats show you he is subpar but yet you try to sneak the conversation into comparing last year. The same bullshit that you can;t comprehend that it isn;t easy to replace a QB so you choose ot ignore all the signs. Yeah thats smart. Is that you Jerry reese?
Fix. The. Fucking. Defense. It’s been bad since 2011 save for one season. And what happened that season? The giants won 11 games. Enough with the non stop Eli talk.
They won 11 games dragging the offense by the hair. That defense had to play until it was pissing blood and punch drunk. Let's absolutely not frame this as if defense has been the missing link with the franchise, because that's goddamn dishonest.
New York Giants 27 at Indianapolis Colts 28
The Giants struggled to run the ball and were without Odell Beckham, but Eli Manning came to life in one of his best games of the season. Not many would have expected that with the Colts still having the postseason to play for, but the Giants had leads of 14-0, 24-14, and 27-21 on the day. There was a chance to put together a great drive to run out the clock, but backed up in their own end, the Giants stuck with Saquon Barkley on the ground and were fortunate to get a forward progress call to negate a potential fumble.
That three-and-out led to Andrew Luck only needing 53 yards to drive for the go-ahead touchdown in the final 3:43. Things never got too difficult for the Colts on the drive, but the Giants hurt themselves with two penalties on plays where they didn't even need to make contact with the receivers. After getting a first-and-goal at the 1, Luck threw a touchdown pass to Chester Rogers on a natural pick play with 55 seconds left. Adam Vinatieri hit the go-ahead extra point for the Colts' first and only lead of the day.
You give Andrew Luck a short field because you can't run the clock out with the same offense that ripped up and down the field all day, then trash the defense, full of replacement players, for not pulling a rabbit out of a hat against a top-level quarterback.
Dallas Cowboys 36 at New York Giants 35
Normally, 1:12 would be a little too early to go for a two-or-die, but these were special circumstances. Prescott made the pass work to Michael Gallup, and the Cowboys led 36-35. However, a taunting penalty threatened to end Dallas' celebration quickly. That led to a short kickoff that the Giants returned to their own 48, leaving Eli Manning in great position to lead a game-winning field goal drive. But like last week in Indianapolis when the Giants trailed by a single point, Manning was unable to move the offense. He threw four incompletions in a row, with Cody Latimer unable to come down with the ball on fourth-and-10. The Giants finished 2-7 at game-winning drive opportunities this season. Prescott has as many game-winning drives (14) in his three-year career as Manning has led in the last six seasons combined.
We can go back and forth over who you want to blame for the 'close games losses', but right here are two incidents of the offense failing to take a W that was on the table. Even with a bad defense. They didn't even need touchdowns here. They just had to get to reasonable field position.
His qbr espn rating was top 5 in 11, terrible today.
this is consistent with the eyeball test as well.
we use aggregate stats yet dog these ratings when they often describe roughly (not absolutely) with some accuracy......
I stand by what I posted. QBR is the worst stat in all of sports. Always has been, always will be. I don't care which version of QBR (ESPNs QBR or the old school passer rating) is used. The very version you are referring to started in 2011, true enough. However it was modified in 2012 and then again in 2013. The simple fact that they have multiple versions of it and/or different modifications to it should tell you something.
It's a BS stat. Always has been and always will be.
As to the eyeball test, that's subjective to the owner of the eyeball. I've already stated that the only decline in Eli's play I see is that the game is getting faster on him. That does happen to be a significant issue. I don't see less zip on the ball. I don't see less mobility because he never had any in the first place. I don't see him making or missing the tough throws any more or less than he did before. I do see the game getting faster on him (or he's not thinking fast enough). It could be from several years behind a shit OL. It could be a decline from age. It could be learning his 3rd new system. Maybe it's a combination of all three. That's what my eyeball sees.
New York Giants 27 at Indianapolis Colts 28
The Giants struggled to run the ball and were without Odell Beckham, but Eli Manning came to life in one of his best games of the season. Not many would have expected that with the Colts still having the postseason to play for, but the Giants had leads of 14-0, 24-14, and 27-21 on the day. There was a chance to put together a great drive to run out the clock, but backed up in their own end, the Giants stuck with Saquon Barkley on the ground and were fortunate to get a forward progress call to negate a potential fumble.
That three-and-out led to Andrew Luck only needing 53 yards to drive for the go-ahead touchdown in the final 3:43. Things never got too difficult for the Colts on the drive, but the Giants hurt themselves with two penalties on plays where they didn't even need to make contact with the receivers. After getting a first-and-goal at the 1, Luck threw a touchdown pass to Chester Rogers on a natural pick play with 55 seconds left. Adam Vinatieri hit the go-ahead extra point for the Colts' first and only lead of the day.
You give Andrew Luck a short field because you can't run the clock out with the same offense that ripped up and down the field all day, then trash the defense, full of replacement players, for not pulling a rabbit out of a hat against a top-level quarterback.
Dallas Cowboys 36 at New York Giants 35
Normally, 1:12 would be a little too early to go for a two-or-die, but these were special circumstances. Prescott made the pass work to Michael Gallup, and the Cowboys led 36-35. However, a taunting penalty threatened to end Dallas' celebration quickly. That led to a short kickoff that the Giants returned to their own 48, leaving Eli Manning in great position to lead a game-winning field goal drive. But like last week in Indianapolis when the Giants trailed by a single point, Manning was unable to move the offense. He threw four incompletions in a row, with Cody Latimer unable to come down with the ball on fourth-and-10. The Giants finished 2-7 at game-winning drive opportunities this season. Prescott has as many game-winning drives (14) in his three-year career as Manning has led in the last six seasons combined.
We can go back and forth over who you want to blame for the 'close games losses', but right here are two incidents of the offense failing to take a W that was on the table. Even with a bad defense. They didn't even need touchdowns here. They just had to get to reasonable field position.
How dare you blame Eli - for anything. Every one of his passes should have been caught. The Wr's must've ran the wrong routes no doubt.
As far as qb rating vs "points scored" so what you don't like QBRating." Are you saying "Points scored"is more accurate? Are you telling me that last year Blake Bortles was up there among the best in football? Because his tea was 5th best in points scored.
How would you account for a super rb being the reason for the offense exploding instead of giving the credit to the QB? Unless you don't think a super RB is more of a reason for scoring more points than the qb? They are always equal? I'm open to a reasonable explanation telling me why points scored is important using the Bortles and how you would address the super impact of the super rb as examples if you can?
As far as your comment that the Giants will patch a lot of holes as you suggest and I think you suggesting bring back Eli -- what does "patch a lot of holes" mean as it pertains to wins? If they go 5-11 again did they really patch a lot of holes? Or are you expecting them to go 7-9? WOuld they have patched a lot of holes with 7-9 if eli comes back with a full year of SB and OBJ and those holes they used to patch you think they would be better?
And your example for 2020 using Philly as an example I think is fantasy. I realize we're all doing fantasy here but that one goes way over the moon. Beyond the moon. The GM doesn't trade down -- not sure if he has traded up but he hasn't traded down. Philly made a ton of moves to make that happen by BOTH trading up and down. This GM hasn't shown near to ever has done this. SUre he can but to rely on something that he has NEVER done - and because I dont think much of him anyways - I think no shot to happen like Philly. SO you want use only the eli-Gmen example back in Eli time?
I never said points scored is more accurate than QBRating but since I think QBRating is a BS stat, sure I think "points scored" in context to the rest of the division is more telling. However, that's not the stat that I posted. The stat that I posted showed that the Giants defense allowed the most points in the division. I've seen this same argument when comparing Eli Manning to Big Ben and Rivers. I'm sorry but the fact that both Rivers and Big Ben have had, on average (and it's not even close), better defenses and run games than Eli Manning over the course of their careers is very very important to factor in. Also, sorry, but I won't be forced into a cherry-picked generalization with Bortles as a comparison.
I'm not directly suggesting bringing back Eli because he's some great QB. I'm suggesting that's the best option they have. If the Giants think a better option is there for 2019 and they go for it, I'll support my team and hope for the best. What I said was I don't want to play QB roulette with our top draft picks on maybe QBs. I'll hang with Eli for another year. I probably said it in a different thread but I think the team can make the playoffs next year with a great pass rusher, an above average RT and average OC.
As to my examples, I picked two random examples off the top of my head. There are others. My point is the Giants don't already have Rogers sitting on their bench like the Packers did waiting on Favre to retire. 49ers already had Young. The Colts "sucked for Luck". I don't know you but were you around to watch through the wait between Simms and Eli. It was a whole bunch of missed draft picks and half measures. You bet against the house and the house wins most of the time. That's just the way it is. I'll at least wait for a decent hand before I put any significant amount of chips in. When I'm real confident in my hand, I go all in. None of the QBs last year were worth a 2nd (i.e. Barkley was/is). None of the QBs in 2019 are worth a 6th IMHO but I will have faith in Gettleman if he chooses otherwise.
As for the GM never trading down, it's getting annoying reading this. He's had what, 5 different drafts to work with so far. It hasn't occurred to anyone that he just hasn't come across a good opportunity to do so yet. I read the same thing here about Reese not drafting a RB in the 1st round. Then Reese drafted Wilson. I would hope Gettleman learned some things since his last GM stint and he's only drafted for the Giants once so far (of which btw I feel he did an excellent job). In case you haven't noticed, he's already compiled himself quite of few extra draft picks for 2019 which gives him a lot of options (even lower rounds). Might be able to roll some of the picks over to 2020. Maybe even pick up some more for 2020. Point is, he is creating more options for himself. I don't think he plans on staying pat with his extra 4th, 5th, and 7th round picks.
For most people I think the sensible thing to realize is the Giants are looking for a QB. Maybe not to start next year but Eli isn’t gonna be around in a few years.
Eli hasn’t been the main problem with the team, if you think that you are going too far, but I think he is part of the problem. We need to really change things up because 8 wins in 2 years is pathetic. Going back further it doesn’t really look that much better. The Giants need to get more from the QB position, as do a lot of teams.
It’s safe to say that unless Eli retires he will most likely be the starter for 2019. If you root for him to play poorly or look past things that are his fault all you are doing is driving yourself crazy. He’s had a good career with the Giants and I have been happy to cheer for him, but things like he deserves respect, and all the sentimentality that goes around doesn’t make our team better.
For most people I think the sensible thing to realize is the Giants are looking for a QB. Maybe not to start next year but Eli isn’t gonna be around in a few years.
Eli hasn’t been the main problem with the team, if you think that you are going too far, but I think he is part of the problem. We need to really change things up because 8 wins in 2 years is pathetic. Going back further it doesn’t really look that much better. The Giants need to get more from the QB position, as do a lot of teams.
It’s safe to say that unless Eli retires he will most likely be the starter for 2019. If you root for him to play poorly or look past things that are his fault all you are doing is driving yourself crazy. He’s had a good career with the Giants and I have been happy to cheer for him, but things like he deserves respect, and all the sentimentality that goes around doesn’t make our team better.
Its too late to write my response to USAF (I'll write him something over relief then more much later)and to you but as far as your point you are misconstruing mine. I never said eli was the number 1 reason. It's the thread thatI conmplained about and the absurdity of using "points scored" and now it's gone to between USAF and I - he seems to think list has some validity. I'll respond to that - I dont want to post direct to yo what I'm going to sya to him.
But don't misreprseent my points. My points were that theOP is an eli-fanboy that uses every excuse to excuse Eli. Do you really think "points scored" has validity in giving Eli all thecredit as the op seems to suggest? If you are fair -- wouldn't ti stand ot reason that each situation is different and sometimes it can be a super RB or super wr or a super OLine. The op always makes his points about Eli.
Plus what type of morn thinks this year and in the future eli is better than Matt ryan for a season?
So all of this means I'm a poster who blames him for everything/ I don't. I just believe if Haskins is high up and is close to the other guys you got to take him. My view he looks good so does Bleacher report, walter Camp, Sb Nation, NBC sports, Sporting News, Mel Kiper, Fotballmaven, Thunderdogpsorts. - ANd Pro football weekly had an article in October saying hsi stock was rising as the 1st qb to be taken only after 6 games but the writer expressed caution that he had to see more. SO he didnt assign a number but so far he's been off thecharts.
SO I ihave to listen ot bullshit form the OP about the absurdity of points scored and I have yet to see much bad press that Haskins wont be a top ten pick instead I her stuff that supposedly "anyways" think he should stay which is basically said by those that imo desperately want to keep Eli. Otherwise show the articles - I can provide all the links I just told you.
does this mean I'm blamming Eli for everything? I'm just disagreeing with those that seem to want to give eli what I feel an enormous pass along with I feel a QB should be taken 1st as a priority if the QB is near the rating of the 6th pick.
ALso I'm very happy with Eli's career.
I see you made a comment about "being annoyed" with my comment of DG doesn't trade down. It's our 1st "annoyance" of one another's posts. I mean this with respect; I don't care that you are annoyed.IMO if you want to close your eyes on the past and says it's he hasn't had the oportunity and ignore data just as you ignore the QBR data thats your business. Bu I suppose many of us are going to keep "annoying you" until he shows the creativity to do it.
But as i posted on another thread a while back in which I hammered DG - I brought up that I dont think the guy has shown the creativity to be other than blunt instrument. His projection of the team to be a winning team this year was absurd just as he was joking / putting down analytics.
Until he shows me I don't assume - because I don think he's very bright. So if I dont think hes veyr bright -- you being annoyed any tome I or someone else mentions he hasnt traded down means nothing. You can mention "tommorrow" or "another day" you are annoyed by this if I say it-- but i don't care. Only a blunt instrument would probably lok at 2016 at 11-5 then the next year then assume the team will be wining again. Any goofball can claim that after 2016 and think his hogmollie laugh at analytics style way will turn it around instead of doing adequate due diligence. IMO its more creative to walk others through why it wasn't going to happen.
Further, in part I disagree with nearly everything you said. We are G-men fans but with your "eyeball test" and "points scored pov" i htink is nothing more that "witch doctor analysis" - thus imo you look at nearly everything wrong. It doesn;t matter. w dont make the decisions anyways but I'll also add the QB rating is in part quantifying your eyeball test of Eli which is why I think you're wrong about QBR there too. No projection stat evaluating who is best is perfect. But its a lot better that points scored. As staed you or anyoen else cant account for the super rb or super wr or ol - you can;t quantify it. Then the OP just goes off and pretends it's about Eli and it seems like you are agreeing with him -- but you havent come out either way. It;s juts so wrong to think it's all Eli as the OP seems intent on doing. If he didnt let him come out and say it. That he doesnt know how much was Eli. Nor do you. Nor od i. I dont think it;s as much as the OP though.
As we get older we also down in many areas as Eli has.
I wonder if our "friend" the OP can even accept that.
"points scored" argument. It;s laughable the fanboy-homerism for ELi.
Try explaining to any statistician that "points scored" is any way to accurately measure a QB and you'll gt them to cry laughing at the absurdity. This is the same guy who thinks ELi right now is better than matt Ryan.
Can you really point to any posters who don't think Eli is part of the problem?
We are a bad football team and have been for some time. Everyone deserves to shoulder a portion of the blame.
I think part of the reason you see support for Eli isn't just because he's the starting QB for the team we root for, but because of the over-the-top commentary after almost any loss. When you have a particular poster who uses terms like the Cult of Eli or eli fanboys in nearly every one of his posts, it is easy to see why you would have people respond to refute that fucking drivel.
I don't think I can name a single poster who thinks Eli is above blame or that he hasn't contributed to the poor seasons. I can find several posters who truly believe that eli is the root of the problem
People say I cherry pick stats? GTFO. When people start using QBR as a mean to judge the offense over points fucking scored... you know an agenda is being pushed.
But only if we had Matt Ryan.... LMFAO.
People say I cherry pick stats? GTFO. When people start using QBR as a mean to judge the offense over points fucking scored... you know an agenda is being pushed.
But only if we had Matt Ryan.... LMFAO.
While you do certainly have a point on the defensive side,(but you and every fan knew what would happen there), failing to move the team 1 yard while at midfield with 72 seconds and 2 TOs is pretty lame. It was a drive teed up for success and I absolutely thought he would get it done. They only needed 15-20 yards.
However it was actually a good thing. Probably gained 4 spots in the draft.
35 points... thirty-five!!!! People just assume that since you need only “x” amount of yards that it’s so easy to get. Remember Be against Denver? Brady against Pitt? Baker last week against Baltimore? Ben against the Saints?
Offenses aren’t guaranteed to score just because you have good field position or just need a FG.
The fact that some posters here don’t wanna admit is that we have much bigger holes to fill than QB. And they refuse to see it. We all know Eli isn’t the best QB anymore but with an average defense.... we could have made the playoffs this year.
Giantstock, I'm not annoyed with you specifically as several people say the same thing. I also get annoyed when people say that Eli didn't earn his SB MVPs because the defense won those. it's simply wrong. As to you claiming you are not assuming Gettleman is willing to trade back because he hasn't done it before is, in fact, an assumption. You are assuming he won't trade back because he's never done it before but he hasn't even had that many opportunities to do so. I still believe Gettleman is capable of making any available decision during the draft and is open to all options. I'm not making the assumption, you are. If there was some kind of legitimate evidence to support that Gettleman doesn't consider trade downs, you might have something. Simply not doing it yet does not a case make. It's like saying if you rolled a couple dice 5 times and never got snake eyes, you never will. This is a logical fallacy. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Additionally, you continue to be stuck on this point scored thing. Like I believe this be some all great measurement. All I'm saying is it does matter. It does say something. You make it sound like I think it's the most important stat in the world. I'll remind you for the last time that I followed up with the defense allowing more points stat as I thought that was more telling. You seem to be having trouble getting past that point. You're the one fixated on it. I'm not. If you think that a team's OL doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think that a team's defense doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the run game doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think the game plan doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think penalties doesn't affect the QB, you would be wrong. If you think etc. etc. etc. Now, how much of that information really goes into the QBR?
As to Dep, yea, he's Eli's biggest defender on here and I don't fault him for that. There are just as many on the opposite side that constantly bash Eli that you seem to discount. It's gotten ridiculous on both sides of that coin. I'm thankful to Dep on occasions when someone post something ridiculous about Eli (i.e. Eli didn't win the SBs, the defense did) because I get ready to post and then say to myself, nah, Dep will get this. I'm saying it's funny because people miss the fact that the team did improve this year. The arrow is pointed up. Shurmer and Gettleman are making moves and seeing what they have for the future. Trying different things. They just don't see a better QB available yet. All these posters demanding a change at QB that either don't back it up with another legit option, want to gamble away a top pick on a maybe, or recommend worse alternatives. So many people on here are so blinded by the Eli Manning debate that they can't see the forest through the trees. The team will figure this out. They've done so 4 times now which is better than the large majority of the league.
but when a player is ranking mediocre consistenly over the span of a few years, that stat is not typically lying. now there are macro issues affecting the offense so some blame goes to the o line.
i certainly prefer qbr and wins to other aggregate stats used here so often, of course we may not agree.
i do also agree way too much is made out of Eli here regarding his contribution to the losing.
However, regarding the issue of his age and the enormous challenge of finding his replacement this is priority 1a for the giants. This team has stars on the offense and is designed to be great on o. they won’t be able to invest in d they was they are on o and the goal will be to upgrade to the point of being respectable. This can reasonably be done with a draft some natural improvement of young players and some free agent signings.
The qb is a much tougher find and i agree with Giantstock here-the Giants have to look at haskins, the pick at 6 is known and will the team be in a position to pick one of the 2020 crop?