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The simplest solution to the Eli cap situation....

Milton : 12/31/2018 10:49 am
...is to give him a contract extension that creates cap room without actually guaranteeing him any more money than he is due to receive in 2019.

As one example, the Giants could create $10M in addition cap room in 2019 by tearing up his current contract and giving him a three-year deal (which translates to a two-year extension) with a $15M signing bonus and $2M in salary. In this example, Eli gets the same $17M in real money that he is due in 2019, but $10M of the cap hit would be pushed from 2019 to 2020/21.

Whatever salaries/bonus money he receives in 2020 and 2021 can be negotiable and would likely include escalators based on performance. It wouldn't be in Eli's interest to demand too much in base salary because it would only make it more likely the Giants release him (which, in my example above, would mean a $10M dead cap hit in 2020, not at all unmanageable if he is being replaced by a QB on his rookie contract).
Extend him to 2020  
bradshaw44 : 12/31/2018 10:50 am : link
Do not give him more money. Split his current salary cap hit between the two years. Use savings to build the trenches.
Why  
tomjgiant : 12/31/2018 10:53 am : link
would Eli do that?
...  
christian : 12/31/2018 10:57 am : link
The most simple solution is for Manning to take a straight pay cut for 2019.
Extending him makes sense  
Chip : 12/31/2018 10:58 am : link
if you want to lower his cap value next season. Vernon is the big question lower salary or release.
no  
GiantsFan84 : 12/31/2018 10:58 am : link
take all the cap hits now and minimize future dead money as much as possible
Giants have plenty of cap room as it is  
bigbluehoya : 12/31/2018 11:04 am : link
if they want to stick with Eli, let him play out the last year of the deal.

If he's still the most worthwhile starting QB beyond that to help create a long window of sustained annual success, have that negotiation next offseason when you can be 100% unbiased by any "dead cap" hits already on the books for future years.

For me, the line is drawn at moving any amount of guaranteed money / cap hit into 2020 or beyond at this point. I don't insist on immediate QB change at this point (though it wouldn't bother me in the least), but taking from future years' salary cap to further leverage 2019 would bother me.
RE: Why  
Milton : 12/31/2018 11:04 am : link
In comment 14241092 tomjgiant said:
Quote:
would Eli do that?
why wouldn't he? there is nothing that can't be negotiated with escalators, incentive bonuses, and even voidable years. He doesn't sacrifice a single dime in the example I provided and it removes all the uncertainty (and relentless questions) surrounding his status for 2019.
Condon  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 12/31/2018 11:11 am : link
would have to be a complete pushover and also a doofus.

Can we come back to reality?
RE: Giants have plenty of cap room as it is  
Milton : 12/31/2018 11:13 am : link
In comment 14241116 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
if they want to stick with Eli, let him play out the last year of the deal.

If he's still the most worthwhile starting QB beyond that to help create a long window of sustained annual success, have that negotiation next offseason when you can be 100% unbiased by any "dead cap" hits already on the books for future years.
That's a fair point and it comes down to how the Giants feel about their cap room in 2019 vs 2020+ (and what's available on the market).
p.s.--If Collins plays on the franchise tag that's $10-12M in cap room that's gonna be eaten up right there.
here is my plan  
GiantsFan84 : 12/31/2018 11:15 am : link
cut ellison, barwin, perkins, and stewart. creates an additional $8.32M in cap space.

franchise collins. sign the panthers RT williams w the rest of the signings being low $ roster filler type guys. first round pick then goes towards defense (BPA) and can use 2 of the middle round picks on interior OL (C/RG). rest of the picks i use towards defense or further depth for OL/WR or trading into the 2020 draft as that's the year i make the move for a QB (whatever it takes)

if additional cap space is needed for the above plan cut vernon. if not i'm ok with having him one more year.

i also lean towards giving jenkins one more year
Never understand these Eli cap hit  
WillVAB : 12/31/2018 11:18 am : link
Threads.

Vernon is the worst contract on the team by far and contributes nothing. Cutting Vernon would save 11.5 million this year and 19.5 million the following year.
Agree on parting ways with OV  
JonC : 12/31/2018 11:22 am : link
.
RE: Never understand these Eli cap hit  
bigbluehoya : 12/31/2018 11:23 am : link
In comment 14241149 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Threads.

Vernon is the worst contract on the team by far and contributes nothing. Cutting Vernon would save 11.5 million this year and 19.5 million the following year.


with cap space rolling over year-to-year, wouldn't it be advisable to move on immediately from any and all items whose value doesn't align with their cap hit?

none of these things are mutually exclusive.

Moving on from Vernon seems obvious in all scenarios. Of course, doesn't guarantee anything.
yep I agree  
giantfan2000 : 12/31/2018 11:26 am : link
Quote:
The most simple solution is for Manning to take a straight pay cut for 2019.


THIS!!!
the fact is No-one will pay Manning $23.2 million next year -- no one

Giants need to say - Eli you have one more year with us if you take a pay cut
add a ton of incentives to his contract if he makes to playoffs , super bowl , MVP

if Eli says no -- Giants need to cut him and move on ..

RE: RE: Why  
allstarjim : 12/31/2018 11:32 am : link
In comment 14241119 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 14241092 tomjgiant said:


Quote:


would Eli do that?

why wouldn't he? there is nothing that can't be negotiated with escalators, incentive bonuses, and even voidable years. He doesn't sacrifice a single dime in the example I provided and it removes all the uncertainty (and relentless questions) surrounding his status for 2019.


It's just not a good idea. Eli would be getting non-gtd years he's not going to agree to, and the Giants would be getting a cap hit on out years that are unnecessary. There isn't a problem here. Eli's cap hit next year isn't a problem. All this overthinking and trying to reduce the QB cap number is going to solve itself following the 2019 season when Eli moves on to another team or retires. This is just unnecessary.

You mentioned having a QB on his rookie deal, so that a theoretical $10 mil cap hit isn't a big deal. Nvm the overwhelming unlikelihood of such a deal coming to fruition, but the idea is to use all that cap savings of having a QB on a rookie deal to put a bunch of big-time talent around him...so that means using the cap savings on actual players on the team (hopefully good ones), not players that used to be on the team.
The FA market is shit...  
Ryan : 12/31/2018 11:33 am : link
..this year and with a handful of logical moves they'll have more than enough to be a player on pieces they want to add - the contracts of which won't be cap heavy until Eli is off the books next year.

I wouldn't be opposed at all to approaching him for some relief but there's no reason to push any of his $ into the future in order to overspend on a lousy FA class if he declines. Have a clean set of books when we need to pay a little more than we want for a few key pieces around the next QB.
RE: Giants have plenty of cap room as it is  
Pepe LePugh : 12/31/2018 11:34 am : link
In comment 14241116 bigbluehoya said:


For me, the line is drawn at moving any amount of guaranteed money / cap hit into 2020 or beyond at this point.

Plenty of Cap room? Currently $32M or so, of which $10M is allocated to draft picks, and only 16 starters under contract, including Eli, OV and Chad Wheeler. Lotta work to do.
RE: yep I agree  
allstarjim : 12/31/2018 11:38 am : link
In comment 14241170 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:


Quote:


The most simple solution is for Manning to take a straight pay cut for 2019.



THIS!!!
the fact is No-one will pay Manning $23.2 million next year -- no one

Giants need to say - Eli you have one more year with us if you take a pay cut
add a ton of incentives to his contract if he makes to playoffs , super bowl , MVP

if Eli says no -- Giants need to cut him and move on ..


Insulting. The Giants should not ask Eli to take a cut, and there is no reason for them to. And Eli shouldn't agree to a cut. He's been a consummate professional and brought championships to this team. To treat him that way in his final year would be an absolute disgrace.

The Giants can easily ride out his final year, and give him a dignified swan song he deserves.
RE: RE: Giants have plenty of cap room as it is  
bigbluehoya : 12/31/2018 11:40 am : link
In comment 14241183 Pepe LePugh said:
Quote:
In comment 14241116 bigbluehoya said:


For me, the line is drawn at moving any amount of guaranteed money / cap hit into 2020 or beyond at this point.

Plenty of Cap room? Currently $32M or so, of which $10M is allocated to draft picks, and only 16 starters under contract, including Eli, OV and Chad Wheeler. Lotta work to do.


Agree. Tons of work. So much that it could make one think it will take more than 1 more offseason to remedy things to a state where they're in healthy shape to make an annual contender.

...in which case...anything that amounts to prioritizing a 2019 run over maximum finances and flexibility in 2020/beyond may be a bad idea.
RE: RE: Never understand these Eli cap hit  
WillVAB : 12/31/2018 11:41 am : link
In comment 14241162 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 14241149 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Threads.

Vernon is the worst contract on the team by far and contributes nothing. Cutting Vernon would save 11.5 million this year and 19.5 million the following year.



with cap space rolling over year-to-year, wouldn't it be advisable to move on immediately from any and all items whose value doesn't align with their cap hit?

none of these things are mutually exclusive.

Moving on from Vernon seems obvious in all scenarios. Of course, doesn't guarantee anything.


Moving on from a serviceable QB by even most pessimistic standards isnít the same decision as cutting a backup TE or backup RB.

His cap hit isnít even egregious relative to the market and his peers. The only way youíre getting value at the position is with franchise QB on a rookie deal. That time will come but it isnít now.

Vernon, Ellison, and Stewart are the contracts that need to be cut. Those cuts in addition to the space they already have will net 50 million in space ó plenty of money to sign Collins if they want and add a few pieces to the OL/front 7 if the talent is there.
mostly agreed  
bigbluehoya : 12/31/2018 11:47 am : link
Like I said previously, I don't insist on a QB change immediately (I'd absolutely prefer one, but there is merit to having Eli stay on for 2019).

But to me, there isn't any justification for extending him right now / restructuring / doing anything that kicks any guaranteed Eli cap hit into 2020 or beyond.
hmmm  
giantfan2000 : 12/31/2018 11:50 am : link
Quote:
Insulting. The Giants should not ask Eli to take a cut, and there is no reason for them to. And Eli shouldn't agree to a cut. He's been a consummate professional and brought championships to this team. To treat him that way in his final year would be an absolute disgrace.


why is it insulting ? The Giants have paid Manning VERYVERY well his entire career the good years and the terrible years.

Eli Manning has made the second most amount from his NFL contracts than any NFL player EVER (Peyton is number 1).
The reality is Manning is no longer a 22 million dollar a year QB. If Manning wants to play one more year with Giants then he should take a pay cut. it is just reality of situation .
he's not 100% to blame as we all know how this team has  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 12/31/2018 11:58 am : link
be run since 2012, but the fact remains the Giants have paid him very very well at the same time to miss the playoffs 6 out of 7 years.

He can split his current contract into 2 years to provide relieve!

RE: mostly agreed  
WillVAB : 12/31/2018 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14241217 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
Like I said previously, I don't insist on a QB change immediately (I'd absolutely prefer one, but there is merit to having Eli stay on for 2019).

But to me, there isn't any justification for extending him right now / restructuring / doing anything that kicks any guaranteed Eli cap hit into 2020 or beyond.


I think thereís merit to a sensible deal that keeps him through 2020. If the Giants get their QB in 20 having Eli provides a smooth transition. If the unthinkable happens and they miss out, at least they have something at QB.

Cutting Vernon this year opens up 19.5 million in 2020.
RE: hmmm  
WillVAB : 12/31/2018 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14241230 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Insulting. The Giants should not ask Eli to take a cut, and there is no reason for them to. And Eli shouldn't agree to a cut. He's been a consummate professional and brought championships to this team. To treat him that way in his final year would be an absolute disgrace.




why is it insulting ? The Giants have paid Manning VERYVERY well his entire career the good years and the terrible years.

Eli Manning has made the second most amount from his NFL contracts than any NFL player EVER (Peyton is number 1).
The reality is Manning is no longer a 22 million dollar a year QB. If Manning wants to play one more year with Giants then he should take a pay cut. it is just reality of situation .


A pay cut to what and who are you spending the savings on?

People have zero perspective. Go look at what Case Keenum is making.

huh  
giantfan2000 : 12/31/2018 1:02 pm : link
Quote:
A pay cut to what and who are you spending the savings on?


you don't think having an extra 7 -10 million next year is a good thing for Giants?
Eli isnít going to be asked to take a pay cut  
BillT : 12/31/2018 1:06 pm : link
Heís worth the money heís paid.
RE: huh  
BillT : 12/31/2018 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14241415 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:


Quote:


A pay cut to what and who are you spending the savings on?



you don't think having an extra 7 -10 million next year is a good thing for Giants?

Actually, no. The Giants ave enough cap space to get the one top and a few other FA that anyone can get anymore. There is too much money and too few FA available for any team to get much more than that no matter how much cap space they have.
RE: Condon  
Britt in VA : 12/31/2018 1:10 pm : link
In comment 14241131 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
would have to be a complete pushover and also a doofus.

Can we come back to reality?


The cut Eli at any cost crowd does not live in reality.
If anyone isn't living in reality,  
Go Terps : 12/31/2018 1:12 pm : link
it's the Giants' ownership and front office.
RE: huh  
WillVAB : 12/31/2018 1:20 pm : link
In comment 14241415 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:


Quote:


A pay cut to what and who are you spending the savings on?



you don't think having an extra 7 -10 million next year is a good thing for Giants?


Cap space only matters relative to the rest of the league and if thereís players youíre trying to pay for. 7-10 million isnít going to put the Giants in a position to outspend the league. Thereís still teams with more cap space even if Eliís hit was zero dollars.

A 7-10 mil cut puts him less than guys like Tyrod, Keenum, Tannehill, etc. not happening.
Extend him, add a year.  
since1925 : 12/31/2018 1:24 pm : link
That gives us more cap maneuverability. He'll play in 2019 and hang around as a mentor for 2020. That makes the most sense.
RE: Never understand these Eli cap hit  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 12/31/2018 1:29 pm : link
In comment 14241149 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Threads.

Vernon is the worst contract on the team by far and contributes nothing. Cutting Vernon would save 11.5 million this year and 19.5 million the following year.


You are such a disease.
just leave it alone  
Dankbeerman : 12/31/2018 1:41 pm : link
plenty of ways to free space if needed
At some point  
moaltch : 12/31/2018 2:34 pm : link
in the very near future, the Giants need their next qb. What happens if you do nothing now, and we go 8-8 then pick somewhere in the middle in 2020? Chances of getting THE qb with that pick is unlikely. I feel thats the worst case scenario. The question is, what do you do to prevent that? Stuck at .500 is the worst.
RE: At some point  
joe48 : 12/31/2018 4:11 pm : link
In comment 14241620 moaltch said:
Quote:
in the very near future, the Giants need their next qb. What happens if you do nothing now, and we go 8-8 then pick somewhere in the middle in 2020? Chances of getting THE qb with that pick is unlikely. I feel thats the worst case scenario. The question is, what do you do to prevent that? Stuck at .500 is the worst.
Agree and I get the feeling some posters think we will get a QB to fall in our lap in 2020. Easier said than done. If a QB is available this year you go for it. Some Think Eli can play 2 more years. Next year will be it. He will be 40 years old in 2 years.
I think Eli will get a two year extension  
Vanzetti : 12/31/2018 4:23 pm : link
It makes the most sense. No way do Giants want him to be a lame duck QB.

But I don't think they are going to give him an additional 15 million signing bonus.

Eli already counts 6.2 million against the cap for next year, so 5 million from the signing bonus and 2 million in salary would make his cap number 13.2. Then they would have ten more million in dead money if they cut him after 2019.





RE: RE: Why  
USAF NYG Fan : 12/31/2018 4:35 pm : link
In comment 14241119 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 14241092 tomjgiant said:


Quote:


would Eli do that?

why wouldn't he? there is nothing that can't be negotiated with escalators, incentive bonuses, and even voidable years. He doesn't sacrifice a single dime in the example I provided and it removes all the uncertainty (and relentless questions) surrounding his status for 2019.

If I'm reading your suggestion right, he's sacrificing a year for no guaranteed incentive. He's sacrificing another year under contract. He could just play out his year under current contract and be a FA the following year. If he plays well, someone will pay him another big contract for more years (maybe the Giants). If he plays poorly, he can retire and get the same amount.

I wouldn't even consider that if I was Eli.
Exactly....  
Britt in VA : 12/31/2018 4:51 pm : link
There are people here who legitimately think that the player should just a. cut his salary in half just because.... or b. should extend one year but only at his current pay, thereby just again cutting his salary in half but asking him to play an ADDITIONAL year while doing it....

Like another poster said, if Tom Condon agreed to anything like that he'd never represent another player.

Dreamworld. Complete dreamworld.

It's a business. The players are in business, too. Eli has the leverage.
Nobody here would agree to anything like that in their own profession.  
Britt in VA : 12/31/2018 4:55 pm : link
but Eli should.
The Giants have plenty of leverage  
Go Terps : 12/31/2018 4:56 pm : link
1. Eli hasn't played well.

2. He can be released to open up a lot of cap space.

What's the worst that can happen if they cut him and play Lauletta or another kid? They go 5-11?
I'm completely against any type of restructure  
Go Terps : 12/31/2018 4:57 pm : link
This team is built on a mountain of half measures.

Grow up already and make the correct business decision.
The Giants really don't have any leverage.  
Britt in VA : 12/31/2018 5:05 pm : link
They have one option, cut Manning. That's their only option if they don't want to honor Manning's last year of his contract.
RE: The Giants really don't have any leverage.  
Go Terps : 12/31/2018 5:08 pm : link
In comment 14241890 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
They have one option, cut Manning. That's their only option if they don't want to honor Manning's last year of his contract.


So do it already. Haven't we done enough to his legacy? I don't want to see the guy retire with a losing record, and that's where this is headed.
Whether or not they decide to keep Eli on the Giants in 2019,  
cosmicj : 12/31/2018 5:09 pm : link
Spreading his cap hit into 2020 makes no sense unless they decide that the team is a player away from being a contender. Can anyone else think of another reason to spread the cap hit? Thatís a genuine question.
Because they're not going to....  
Britt in VA : 12/31/2018 5:10 pm : link
They feel he's their best option to start NEXT year. They don't want to break even with a journeyman and they don't want to tank the season with Lauletta.

Honestly, the best you can hope for (and I mean you generally) is that they like a guy enough to take him at 6 or trade up for, and he sits behind Manning to start the season.
Fuck a restructure  
UConn4523 : 12/31/2018 5:11 pm : link
either cut him or let him finish his current contract. Absolutely no desire to see this play out again and again.
And this isn't an Eli Apologist stance....  
Britt in VA : 12/31/2018 5:13 pm : link
I know he's not the future, it's a logistics stance.

It just makes the most sense for all parties.
RE: ...  
Matt M. : 12/31/2018 5:32 pm : link
In comment 14241102 christian said:
Quote:
The most simple solution is for Manning to take a straight pay cut for 2019.
That isn't allowed. The only way to do that is cut him with the current cap implications abd then re-negotiate a deal, which is not likely. Paycuts really only refer to converting salary to guaranteed money and extend the deal to amortize the money.
The simplest solution?  
FStubbs : 12/31/2018 5:33 pm : link
Is Eli plays 2019 and retires afterward.
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