First question I ask is what is your thoughts on him this season? He only played in 11 games due to injury (12 in 2017).
When he did play this year he had 30 total tackles and 7 sacks. He did have 1 pass defended and No Ints.
He is has 2 years 39 mil left on his contract (19.5 mil each year)if we keep him both years and do not renegotiate.
If we cut him this year we save 11.5 mil in cap room raising our 2019 cap to around 43.517 mil.
Is he worth keeping for another year trying to get a olb pass rusher in the draft and then cutting him next year?
Or cut ties this year and add a pass rusher or two in the draft/FA?
Side question... Would you pay for DeMarcus Lawrence if he was available?
No it isn’t and I don’t see where I suggested the latter part of your comment. That is Gettleman and Shurmurs job, not mine. I’m more than content with giving Carter much more playing time, drafting another edge rusher, and signing a mid level FA speed rusher at OLB.
This is how today’s NFL works. And it’s not a impediment or stop/hold consideration when you are assessing a player who hasnt stayed healthy and hasnt played well. After assessing performance, It’s all about the age, dollars, and cap. Plenty if not all of the teams clear out guys they no longer want or that don’t meet their expectations and cap impact and worry about the talent replacement. You don’t let a replacement factor remove what is the sensible, logical, and quantitatively necessary decision.
It makes no sense to keep and lose a chunk of cap that can be redirected appropriately towards a better player or players in this case given the amount of cap. Keeping Vernon is wasting two years of cap space and flexibility and development of roster talent.
Gettleman made a good trade in essence of dealing off JPP for BJ Hill. Even if you can’t get a pick for Vernon jettisoning him is not only the sensible decision, it’s really the only one that helps the team going forward.
At his age and continued season by season injury it’s unlikely his performance improves. therefore the only logical thing is to decrease his salary and cap hit, either by restructuring, or cutting. I think it relatively simple even giving that his return led to a somewhat improved lb’er performance
I think you approach him with the paycut (restructuring to an incentive based contract), and if he's not amenable, you cut him loose.
Cutting him loose is almost implicit acceptance that 2019 is another down year. With either no or only one (assuming you sign one in FA or draft) viable pass rusher, that defense is guaranteed to go nowhere fast in 2019.
I think you approach him with the paycut (restructuring to an incentive based contract), and if he's not amenable, you cut him loose.
Cutting him loose is almost implicit acceptance that 2019 is another down year. With either no or only one (assuming you sign one in FA or draft) viable pass rusher, that defense is guaranteed to go nowhere fast in 2019.
I dont agree with the last part of the post. Moving on isnt waiving a white flag for 2019. And keeping him wouldnt be some indication that they are "all in" either. Just bc we, as fans with limited knowledge (especially of the scouting process, both rookies and FAs), cant necessarily suss out the obvious improvement that doesnt mean its an impossibility. They can cut/trade Vernon and improve the pass rush. In all honesty it shouldn't be too hard. It was anemic all year regardless of whether or not he was on the field.
You replace him with the 6th overall pick. A quality ER will be there.
You could add one in FA - and that would offset the loss of Vernon. You could draft one - but you'd have managed expectations for a rookie pass rusher.
Pass rush is hard to come by. The Giants have close to none right now, and they'd be moving backwards. They could improve it, maybe even to the point of being competitive, but the odds aren't in favor of it.
He is a good player, at a reasonable rate he is well worth keeping, I would offer in the 5-7 mil range.
Yeah, like that is going to happen.....an 8.5-10.5 pay cut?
Hill, Edwards, McIntosh, Tomlinson, Vernon, Carter, Ogletree, Goodson, Barwin, Martin, Jenkins, Haley, Thomas, Beal, and Collins is a good base to build around. This is something we have not had in a while, you add talent on all levels to this group and they can become a good defense next season.
You consider that a good base? Hill and Carter played like rookies.....Hill had his Jernigan/Donnell game with 3 sacks.....one of those games, or something to expect from him? Carter reminds me of Williams/Kennard, making a play here and there.....we don't know what we really have in these guys, until they play another year...Tomlinson is not Snacks.....McIntosh? Seen nothing from him yet.....Martin, Barwin, Haley, Thomas, Edwards, Goodson are jags.....Beal has not played a down in the NFL, and has not taken another shot to that shoulder yet.....Ogletree has had int's, but did not play at the level expected....
Which leaves us with OV, Jenkins, and Collins....
OV? I agree with Googs' assessment of him:
that Vernon crashed in way too often on his side. Often taking himself out of the play and allowing way too many runners around the edge.
If he thought there was some other support behind him because of the scheme then so be it, but he would have been much more effective with some patience/holding his ground type of play on his side.
Piling up 3 sacks against backup Cowboy Olineman doesn't endear him to anybody...
If you cut him outright, you save 7.5M in 2019 and create 19.5M cap space to be used in 2020.....a post June 1st cut nets you 11.5M the next 2 years...So basically, if you cut him, you have to replace him, and what will you get at 11.5M per? If you trade him, you end up with the same numbers, but you will definitely be trading from a position of weakness.....best bet is a conditional pick, based on his playing output for his new team...
Jenkins, is probably the only true playmaker on defense....but he is too inconsistent, and does not seem to care when things go wrong on defense....he too, has made a lot of business decisions on defense.....unless you have a replacement, it's hard to cut/trade him.....
And then there is Collins.....second straight year he has been injured....and the last two seasons looked nothing like the 2016 Collins....do you pay big bucks for a safety that can't cover?
This defense has no true leader.....you have to hope that guys like Carter, Hill, Tomlinson can elevate their games, because if they can't this defense is in real trouble....
It will be interesting to see which way DG goes, he can't fix both lines in one season.....I hope he goes whole hog on the OL, and gets a C, RG, and RT.....and hope that Eli has one more year left in him......An OL will make Eli AND Barkley better......and this offense will have to score more points to compensate for the defense...
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Who are we replacing him with? He’s the only viable pass rusher we have.
You replace him with the 6th overall pick. A quality ER will be there.
You hope. No guarantee he will be a solid NFL player.
BUT who replaces him and at what cost? With all the other needs, it's hard to justify using a draft choice to replace him instead of supplement him, at least in 2019.
Explore a pay cut. If that doesn't work out, explore a trade. I'd take a 2020 3rd for him if anybody is willing to do that. The pick would go into the ammunition pile for trading up for a QB in 2020.
I would only cut him as a last resort, but I would cut him before cutting Jenkins as I think he will be easier to replace than Jackrabbit, who I also think is a better player when motivated.
He’s not an elite ER. He’s not even a good ER. Vernon has been a non-factor for two years and he’s one of the highest paid defensive players in the league. Bum hunting a few sacks against backups doesn’t change that. The Giants need a guy that can close out games off the edge.
The Giants can go a couple of ways with this. They can cut Vernon, use the savings to add a quality LB or two capable of blitzing/applying pressure, and then go Williams/Ferrell at 6 overall.
They could also cut Vernon, add a cheaper run stopping 3-4 end, and add more of a traditional 3-4 OLB/ER in Josh Allen.
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In comment 14242720 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
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Who are we replacing him with? He’s the only viable pass rusher we have.
You replace him with the 6th overall pick. A quality ER will be there.
You hope. No guarantee he will be a solid NFL player.
Vernon isn’t a solid NFL player and he has a 19.5 mil cap hit. I’d take my chances at 6 overall. The Giants would still be gaining the cap relief to add other quality players. I’d rather have one or two quality players at other positions than standing pat w Vernon.
Barwin will be gone and I am thinking OV was injured this year. Hard to comeback from a high ankle sprain especially at the OLB/ DE position.
So he takes a restructured contract or is gone.
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has him at 15.5 salary/workout bonus. 4 mil of prorated signing bonus. dead money of 8 if cut. 11.5 cap savings.
It would seem he's not worth the money, but what's the cost to replace him? are there FA to pursue?
I would use the 11.5 savings and go after Anthony Barr. It looks like the Vikings are up against the cap.
Barr would be a big upgrade above OV. If possible, do it DG!
I stated the exact same thing in my linked response re: the detail of a incentive restructure. There is no hurry. We still have cap space for free agency. And releasing him sooner will give him the ability to participate in FA when the big money is flowing. Sitting on his rights while trying to come to terms of a restructure is our best bet in the short term. If a deal can't be worked out and we wait till the first round is over, then we can deal him hopefully for a 3rd. If no one wants to trade for him, then we can just release him in May and wish him well. With the big money gone, he might be more amenable to a restructure knowing that he won't get a similar deal on the open market.
Some guys can do it, but most can’t.
And I really wanted to see the Giants play this hybrid D.
They will go younger through the draft and FA's
You can find a outside LB/edge rush in this draft and Carter is a solid prospect going into year 2.
Gettleman is fast to cut players on the downside and Vernon is on the backside of his career.
Too many injuries and age are catching up.
Cut bait.
He’s not an elite ER. He’s not even a good ER. Vernon has been a non-factor for two years and he’s one of the highest paid defensive players in the league. Bum hunting a few sacks against backups doesn’t change that. The Giants need a guy that can close out games off the edge.
The Giants can go a couple of ways with this. They can cut Vernon, use the savings to add a quality LB or two capable of blitzing/applying pressure, and then go Williams/Ferrell at 6 overall.
They could also cut Vernon, add a cheaper run stopping 3-4 end, and add more of a traditional 3-4 OLB/ER in Josh Allen.
That's absolutely wrong. Vernon is a good player. The problem is he's being paid like a great player, and he's been oft injured since he arrived in NY.
His injury history doesn't bode well moving forward, but if he could stay healthy and his pay were closer in line to his production, he'd be a very useful part of this defense. Those are two big ifs, though.
PFF's ranking of Vernon - ( New Window )
Seriously, Vernon has a highly sought after NFL skill. He has the ability to average double digit sacks if used correctly and, of course, if healthy. And he’s only 28.
My instinct says cut him because of the price tag and inability to stay on the field. But I would take my time here because it’s actually not so cut and dry based on the mobile QBs in our division.
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Cutting him isn’t a one for one deal like the QB position.
He’s not an elite ER. He’s not even a good ER. Vernon has been a non-factor for two years and he’s one of the highest paid defensive players in the league. Bum hunting a few sacks against backups doesn’t change that. The Giants need a guy that can close out games off the edge.
The Giants can go a couple of ways with this. They can cut Vernon, use the savings to add a quality LB or two capable of blitzing/applying pressure, and then go Williams/Ferrell at 6 overall.
They could also cut Vernon, add a cheaper run stopping 3-4 end, and add more of a traditional 3-4 OLB/ER in Josh Allen.
That's absolutely wrong. Vernon is a good player. The problem is he's being paid like a great player, and he's been oft injured since he arrived in NY.
His injury history doesn't bode well moving forward, but if he could stay healthy and his pay were closer in line to his production, he'd be a very useful part of this defense. Those are two big ifs, though. PFF's ranking of Vernon - ( New Window )
Here we go w the PFF bullshit and pressure stats.
Vernon is not a playmaker, period. He’s had long stretches of games where he’s invisible.
His last snap where he whiffed on Dak was a microcosm of his career. Hopefully someone is dumb enough to trade a pick for him.
False. He beat the backup tackle and whiffed.
Carter and the 1st Rd pick will be our edge guys.
Time to move on from OV.
Vernon isn't the guy we signed 3 years ago.
Here we go w the PFF bullshit and pressure stats.
Vernon is not a playmaker, period. He’s had long stretches of games where he’s invisible.
His last snap where he whiffed on Dak was a microcosm of his career. Hopefully someone is dumb enough to trade a pick for him.
I'll take PFF over your analysis any day. At least they're occasionally right.
Anthony Barr is a good LB, but he has 3 less career sacks than Devon Kennard
Look at the FA list and who is under 30
D. Lawrence - already making 17m
D. Fowler - he has already been a big disappointment
J. Clowney - he is going to break the bank
D. Ford is 28 and will get a ton of money
A. Barr
A. Lynch, S. Barrett, S. Ray, S. Anthony, D. Buchanan, A. Chickillo
Kennard got 3-17
I restructure and guarantee him 2-20 This get him guaranteed money, and lowers the number for savings of 5m per year
Wouldn't rest laurels on Carter, not remotely.
Ferrell looks like a 4-3 DE to me, not a 3-4 ER.
Huh? If the Giants cut Vernon they save 11.5 million in 19 and 19.5 million beyond.
Again, this isn’t a one for one deal. The Giants don’t need to replace him in FA. It’s a net positive for the Giants if they are able to add one or two quality FA’s on the OL and/or front 7 with the savings.
Vernon had 7 sacks this year. He’s not worth a 19.5 mil cap hit. Use the money on a player or players who can actually be difference makers.
If they think he can be of any use the they have to have him to do a realistic incentive laden restructure. He should be one of the first guys asked not to bother coming back if he doesn’t take a huge cut
The only way to view this is if he is a 'locker room' issue kind of guy. If they were willing to pay for quality locker room guys like stewart and omameh and vernon is quality, then then I think DG makes more of an effort to keep him. If not, they traded more impactful players in Apple and Snacks, why wouldn't they get rid of an attitude with salary?
The 5 seasons prior to that he missed 0 games. Just putting some of these "he's hurt all the time" comments into perspective.
Having said that, I agree he is overpaid but if he is willing to restructure I would bring him back.
The Giants only save 7.5 million by cutting him... And you need a replacement...
On the other hand it is attractive to get him off the books for 2020.
If we can't trade him, I am inclined to let it be. Another bad contract Reese saddled us with.