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What to do with Olivier Vernon??

superspynyg : 1/1/2019 11:36 am
First question I ask is what is your thoughts on him this season? He only played in 11 games due to injury (12 in 2017).


When he did play this year he had 30 total tackles and 7 sacks. He did have 1 pass defended and No Ints.

He is has 2 years 39 mil left on his contract (19.5 mil each year)if we keep him both years and do not renegotiate.

If we cut him this year we save 11.5 mil in cap room raising our 2019 cap to around 43.517 mil.

Is he worth keeping for another year trying to get a olb pass rusher in the draft and then cutting him next year?

Or cut ties this year and add a pass rusher or two in the draft/FA?

Side question... Would you pay for DeMarcus Lawrence if he was available?

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While it's optimistic to project Carter as Vernon's replacement...  
Big Blue Blogger : 1/1/2019 12:53 pm : link
...he was actually drafted a few slots earlier and had a slightly more productive rookie year. Carter also has better physical traits for the position, including much more speed and height.
RE: Sammo  
Sammo85 : 1/1/2019 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14242752 fkap said:
Quote:
replacing him is part of the equation of cutting him. can't address one part, then bail on the other part.


No it isnít and I donít see where I suggested the latter part of your comment. That is Gettleman and Shurmurs job, not mine. Iím more than content with giving Carter much more playing time, drafting another edge rusher, and signing a mid level FA speed rusher at OLB.

This is how todayís NFL works. And itís not a impediment or stop/hold consideration when you are assessing a player who hasnt stayed healthy and hasnt played well. After assessing performance, Itís all about the age, dollars, and cap. Plenty if not all of the teams clear out guys they no longer want or that donít meet their expectations and cap impact and worry about the talent replacement. You donít let a replacement factor remove what is the sensible, logical, and quantitatively necessary decision.

It makes no sense to keep and lose a chunk of cap that can be redirected appropriately towards a better player or players in this case given the amount of cap. Keeping Vernon is wasting two years of cap space and flexibility and development of roster talent.

Gettleman made a good trade in essence of dealing off JPP for BJ Hill. Even if you canít get a pick for Vernon jettisoning him is not only the sensible decision, itís really the only one that helps the team going forward.
Cut him  
rocco8112 : 1/1/2019 1:02 pm : link
.
OV gets a ton of money but does not give star performance. i think ití  
plato : 1/1/2019 1:03 pm : link
hard to argue with that. this requires re balancing in some way. true after he came back the d played a bit better, but not enough. heís no lbíer in true giant mode of instilling fear in opponent game planning.

At his age and continued season by season injury itís unlikely his performance improves. therefore the only logical thing is to decrease his salary and cap hit, either by restructuring, or cutting. I think it relatively simple even giving that his return led to a somewhat improved lbíer performance
No good options here  
jcn56 : 1/1/2019 1:10 pm : link
as B3 points out - combination of age and health doesn't bode well for predicting his future performance.

I think you approach him with the paycut (restructuring to an incentive based contract), and if he's not amenable, you cut him loose.

Cutting him loose is almost implicit acceptance that 2019 is another down year. With either no or only one (assuming you sign one in FA or draft) viable pass rusher, that defense is guaranteed to go nowhere fast in 2019.
RE: No good options here  
j_rud : 1/1/2019 1:29 pm : link
In comment 14242800 jcn56 said:
Quote:
as B3 points out - combination of age and health doesn't bode well for predicting his future performance.

I think you approach him with the paycut (restructuring to an incentive based contract), and if he's not amenable, you cut him loose.

Cutting him loose is almost implicit acceptance that 2019 is another down year. With either no or only one (assuming you sign one in FA or draft) viable pass rusher, that defense is guaranteed to go nowhere fast in 2019.


I dont agree with the last part of the post. Moving on isnt waiving a white flag for 2019. And keeping him wouldnt be some indication that they are "all in" either. Just bc we, as fans with limited knowledge (especially of the scouting process, both rookies and FAs), cant necessarily suss out the obvious improvement that doesnt mean its an impossibility. They can cut/trade Vernon and improve the pass rush. In all honesty it shouldn't be too hard. It was anemic all year regardless of whether or not he was on the field.
RE: If we cut him  
WillVAB : 1/1/2019 1:29 pm : link
In comment 14242720 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
Who are we replacing him with? Heís the only viable pass rusher we have.


You replace him with the 6th overall pick. A quality ER will be there.
Sure you *could*  
jcn56 : 1/1/2019 1:32 pm : link
but how likely are you to improve it when you have one credible pass rusher (who picked up towards the end of the season after having a bad injury to kick things off)?

You could add one in FA - and that would offset the loss of Vernon. You could draft one - but you'd have managed expectations for a rookie pass rusher.

Pass rush is hard to come by. The Giants have close to none right now, and they'd be moving backwards. They could improve it, maybe even to the point of being competitive, but the odds aren't in favor of it.
Wow.....  
Doomster : 1/1/2019 1:51 pm : link
PaulN : 12:41 pm : link : reply
He is a good player, at a reasonable rate he is well worth keeping, I would offer in the 5-7 mil range.


Yeah, like that is going to happen.....an 8.5-10.5 pay cut?



Hill, Edwards, McIntosh, Tomlinson, Vernon, Carter, Ogletree, Goodson, Barwin, Martin, Jenkins, Haley, Thomas, Beal, and Collins is a good base to build around. This is something we have not had in a while, you add talent on all levels to this group and they can become a good defense next season.


You consider that a good base? Hill and Carter played like rookies.....Hill had his Jernigan/Donnell game with 3 sacks.....one of those games, or something to expect from him? Carter reminds me of Williams/Kennard, making a play here and there.....we don't know what we really have in these guys, until they play another year...Tomlinson is not Snacks.....McIntosh? Seen nothing from him yet.....Martin, Barwin, Haley, Thomas, Edwards, Goodson are jags.....Beal has not played a down in the NFL, and has not taken another shot to that shoulder yet.....Ogletree has had int's, but did not play at the level expected....

Which leaves us with OV, Jenkins, and Collins....

OV? I agree with Googs' assessment of him:
Quote:
Jimmy Googs : 11:48 am : link : reply
that Vernon crashed in way too often on his side. Often taking himself out of the play and allowing way too many runners around the edge.

If he thought there was some other support behind him because of the scheme then so be it, but he would have been much more effective with some patience/holding his ground type of play on his side.

Piling up 3 sacks against backup Cowboy Olineman doesn't endear him to anybody...


If you cut him outright, you save 7.5M in 2019 and create 19.5M cap space to be used in 2020.....a post June 1st cut nets you 11.5M the next 2 years...So basically, if you cut him, you have to replace him, and what will you get at 11.5M per? If you trade him, you end up with the same numbers, but you will definitely be trading from a position of weakness.....best bet is a conditional pick, based on his playing output for his new team...

Jenkins, is probably the only true playmaker on defense....but he is too inconsistent, and does not seem to care when things go wrong on defense....he too, has made a lot of business decisions on defense.....unless you have a replacement, it's hard to cut/trade him.....

And then there is Collins.....second straight year he has been injured....and the last two seasons looked nothing like the 2016 Collins....do you pay big bucks for a safety that can't cover?

This defense has no true leader.....you have to hope that guys like Carter, Hill, Tomlinson can elevate their games, because if they can't this defense is in real trouble....

It will be interesting to see which way DG goes, he can't fix both lines in one season.....I hope he goes whole hog on the OL, and gets a C, RG, and RT.....and hope that Eli has one more year left in him......An OL will make Eli AND Barkley better......and this offense will have to score more points to compensate for the defense...
He did well playing against a backup Tackle on Sunday  
ZogZerg : 1/1/2019 2:03 pm : link
He was able to pad his sack total.
RE: RE: If we cut him  
superspynyg : 1/1/2019 2:03 pm : link
In comment 14242813 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14242720 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


Who are we replacing him with? Heís the only viable pass rusher we have.



You replace him with the 6th overall pick. A quality ER will be there.


You hope. No guarantee he will be a solid NFL player.
It's a real conundrum.  
Red Dog : 1/1/2019 2:06 pm : link
I'd like to see the over-paid, under-producing OV out of here. He's NOT a difference maker, is hurt a lot, and never anywhere near justified that big contract that Reese gave him. (OK, hindsight is 20-20.)

BUT who replaces him and at what cost? With all the other needs, it's hard to justify using a draft choice to replace him instead of supplement him, at least in 2019.

Explore a pay cut. If that doesn't work out, explore a trade. I'd take a 2020 3rd for him if anybody is willing to do that. The pick would go into the ammunition pile for trading up for a QB in 2020.

I would only cut him as a last resort, but I would cut him before cutting Jenkins as I think he will be easier to replace than Jackrabbit, who I also think is a better player when motivated.

Vernon  
WillVAB : 1/1/2019 2:06 pm : link
Cutting him isnít a one for one deal like the QB position.

Heís not an elite ER. Heís not even a good ER. Vernon has been a non-factor for two years and heís one of the highest paid defensive players in the league. Bum hunting a few sacks against backups doesnít change that. The Giants need a guy that can close out games off the edge.

The Giants can go a couple of ways with this. They can cut Vernon, use the savings to add a quality LB or two capable of blitzing/applying pressure, and then go Williams/Ferrell at 6 overall.

They could also cut Vernon, add a cheaper run stopping 3-4 end, and add more of a traditional 3-4 OLB/ER in Josh Allen.

RE: RE: RE: If we cut him  
WillVAB : 1/1/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14242855 superspynyg said:
Quote:
In comment 14242813 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14242720 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


Who are we replacing him with? Heís the only viable pass rusher we have.



You replace him with the 6th overall pick. A quality ER will be there.



You hope. No guarantee he will be a solid NFL player.


Vernon isnít a solid NFL player and he has a 19.5 mil cap hit. Iíd take my chances at 6 overall. The Giants would still be gaining the cap relief to add other quality players. Iíd rather have one or two quality players at other positions than standing pat w Vernon.
Vernon makes too much $  
Rjanyg : 1/1/2019 2:24 pm : link
I would like to see NYG add 2 edge rushers this year, one with our 1st pick: either Allen or Ferrell. Carter is a starter going forward and Kareem Martin is a guy that needs to play better but is more of a depth/veteran guy.

Barwin will be gone and I am thinking OV was injured this year. Hard to comeback from a high ankle sprain especially at the OLB/ DE position.

So he takes a restructured contract or is gone.
RE: RE: overthecap  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/1/2019 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14242707 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14242692 fkap said:


Quote:


has him at 15.5 salary/workout bonus. 4 mil of prorated signing bonus. dead money of 8 if cut. 11.5 cap savings.

It would seem he's not worth the money, but what's the cost to replace him? are there FA to pursue?



I would use the 11.5 savings and go after Anthony Barr. It looks like the Vikings are up against the cap.


Barr would be a big upgrade above OV. If possible, do it DG!
I don't think they need to rush this decision.  
Big Blue Blogger : 1/1/2019 2:49 pm : link
Vernon doesn't have any money due in March, and Giants appear to have sufficient cap space for a sparse 2019 free agent pool. They have time to negotiate, and can even wait to see how the draft plays out. They might lose some leverage if the pick at #6 isn't Vernon's replacement, but we don't know for sure that Carter isn't that guy.
RE: I don't think they need to rush this decision.  
Diver_Down : 1/1/2019 3:00 pm : link
In comment 14242907 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Vernon doesn't have any money due in March, and Giants appear to have sufficient cap space for a sparse 2019 free agent pool. They have time to negotiate, and can even wait to see how the draft plays out. They might lose some leverage if the pick at #6 isn't Vernon's replacement, but we don't know for sure that Carter isn't that guy.


I stated the exact same thing in my linked response re: the detail of a incentive restructure. There is no hurry. We still have cap space for free agency. And releasing him sooner will give him the ability to participate in FA when the big money is flowing. Sitting on his rights while trying to come to terms of a restructure is our best bet in the short term. If a deal can't be worked out and we wait till the first round is over, then we can deal him hopefully for a 3rd. If no one wants to trade for him, then we can just release him in May and wish him well. With the big money gone, he might be more amenable to a restructure knowing that he won't get a similar deal on the open market.
Cut or trade him, so he can  
SHO'NUFF : 1/1/2019 3:11 pm : link
ball out for another team.
What this season showed me is that you canít take a player who has  
Ivan15 : 1/1/2019 3:31 pm : link
been productive in one scheme and assume he can be more productive in a different scheme, even when it seems to better fit his skill set.

Some guys can do it, but most canít.

And I really wanted to see the Giants play this hybrid D.
I'd keep Vernon  
adamg : 1/1/2019 3:35 pm : link
We need more pass rushers not less.
He will be cut.  
larryflower37 : 1/1/2019 3:37 pm : link
The ROI is not there for him anymore.
They will go younger through the draft and FA's
You can find a outside LB/edge rush in this draft and Carter is a solid prospect going into year 2.
Gettleman is fast to cut players on the downside and Vernon is on the backside of his career.
Too many injuries and age are catching up.
Cut bait.
its easy  
Chip : 1/1/2019 3:44 pm : link
step one try to restructure or pay cut if yes keep him. If no release him. I would expect the pay cut would be 3 or 4 mil or it doesn't make sense for OV
RE: Vernon  
jcn56 : 1/1/2019 3:51 pm : link
In comment 14242858 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Cutting him isnít a one for one deal like the QB position.

Heís not an elite ER. Heís not even a good ER. Vernon has been a non-factor for two years and heís one of the highest paid defensive players in the league. Bum hunting a few sacks against backups doesnít change that. The Giants need a guy that can close out games off the edge.

The Giants can go a couple of ways with this. They can cut Vernon, use the savings to add a quality LB or two capable of blitzing/applying pressure, and then go Williams/Ferrell at 6 overall.

They could also cut Vernon, add a cheaper run stopping 3-4 end, and add more of a traditional 3-4 OLB/ER in Josh Allen.


That's absolutely wrong. Vernon is a good player. The problem is he's being paid like a great player, and he's been oft injured since he arrived in NY.

His injury history doesn't bode well moving forward, but if he could stay healthy and his pay were closer in line to his production, he'd be a very useful part of this defense. Those are two big ifs, though.
PFF's ranking of Vernon - ( New Window )
We could use the OV money...  
bw in dc : 1/1/2019 3:54 pm : link
if we cut him to sew up the contract to keep Eli. ; )

Seriously, Vernon has a highly sought after NFL skill. He has the ability to average double digit sacks if used correctly and, of course, if healthy. And heís only 28.

My instinct says cut him because of the price tag and inability to stay on the field. But I would take my time here because itís actually not so cut and dry based on the mobile QBs in our division.
Iím hoping we can keep him and work  
Big Blue '56 : 1/1/2019 3:57 pm : link
out a mutually agreeable new contract.
BB56  
bc4life : 1/1/2019 4:11 pm : link
wonder what numbers would work for both?
RE: RE: Vernon  
WillVAB : 1/1/2019 4:24 pm : link
In comment 14242961 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14242858 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Cutting him isnít a one for one deal like the QB position.

Heís not an elite ER. Heís not even a good ER. Vernon has been a non-factor for two years and heís one of the highest paid defensive players in the league. Bum hunting a few sacks against backups doesnít change that. The Giants need a guy that can close out games off the edge.

The Giants can go a couple of ways with this. They can cut Vernon, use the savings to add a quality LB or two capable of blitzing/applying pressure, and then go Williams/Ferrell at 6 overall.

They could also cut Vernon, add a cheaper run stopping 3-4 end, and add more of a traditional 3-4 OLB/ER in Josh Allen.




That's absolutely wrong. Vernon is a good player. The problem is he's being paid like a great player, and he's been oft injured since he arrived in NY.

His injury history doesn't bode well moving forward, but if he could stay healthy and his pay were closer in line to his production, he'd be a very useful part of this defense. Those are two big ifs, though. PFF's ranking of Vernon - ( New Window )


Here we go w the PFF bullshit and pressure stats.

Vernon is not a playmaker, period. Heís had long stretches of games where heís invisible.

His last snap where he whiffed on Dak was a microcosm of his career. Hopefully someone is dumb enough to trade a pick for him.
uh - he didn't whiff  
bc4life : 1/1/2019 4:31 pm : link
tackle grabbed inside of shoulder pads and held him just long e ough to allow Dak to escape.
Bye  
mrvax : 1/1/2019 4:40 pm : link
.
I think you let him go......  
Reb8thVA : 1/1/2019 4:42 pm : link
When Reese signed him, it seemed like a smart acquisition. He was an ascending 25 year old who had no real history of being injured. The money was a lot, but that was what the market was demanding. The last two years heís missed a lot of games and he is no longer that ascending young player. Iíd take the savings and maybe invest it in a FS or a #2 WR. They are going to have to use the draft to fix the pass rush. Pass rushers in FA are too expensive and when you miss it hurts a lot more.
RE: uh - he didn't whiff  
WillVAB : 1/1/2019 4:51 pm : link
In comment 14243018 bc4life said:
Quote:
tackle grabbed inside of shoulder pads and held him just long e ough to allow Dak to escape.


False. He beat the backup tackle and whiffed.
Tough Call  
Rong5611 : 1/1/2019 5:11 pm : link
But, we have holes to fill. Spend the money on OL and DB.

Carter and the 1st Rd pick will be our edge guys.

Time to move on from OV.
Get him out of here.  
mittenedman : 1/1/2019 5:14 pm : link
I think the Giants will go Edge Rusher (ROLB) in the draft and play Carter at LOLB.

Vernon isn't the guy we signed 3 years ago.
Move him out  
micky : 1/1/2019 5:28 pm : link
Too oft injured
RE: RE: RE: Vernon  
jcn56 : 1/1/2019 5:28 pm : link
In comment 14243003 WillVAB said:
Quote:

Here we go w the PFF bullshit and pressure stats.

Vernon is not a playmaker, period. Heís had long stretches of games where heís invisible.

His last snap where he whiffed on Dak was a microcosm of his career. Hopefully someone is dumb enough to trade a pick for him.


I'll take PFF over your analysis any day. At least they're occasionally right.
I think cut him or renegotiate to a significantly less salary  
Giant John : 1/1/2019 6:41 pm : link
If i am the Giants Iíd be looking at 2 years for something in the 15mm range. Otherwise itís thank you for your services And best of luck.
Vernon  
stretch234 : 1/1/2019 9:08 pm : link
The issue is that we can say all we want about getting 2 pass rushers. They are difficult to find in the draft and they are harder to get in FA. One of the reasons why they signed him was he was a 25 yr old DE that showed that ability

Anthony Barr is a good LB, but he has 3 less career sacks than Devon Kennard

Look at the FA list and who is under 30

D. Lawrence - already making 17m
D. Fowler - he has already been a big disappointment
J. Clowney - he is going to break the bank
D. Ford is 28 and will get a ton of money
A. Barr
A. Lynch, S. Barrett, S. Ray, S. Anthony, D. Buchanan, A. Chickillo

Kennard got 3-17

I restructure and guarantee him 2-20 This get him guaranteed money, and lowers the number for savings of 5m per year




It's time to move on  
JonC : 1/2/2019 8:13 am : link
A rebuilding team can find better use of all the cap dollars it would save. He's just not a difference maker, and we need hungry ascending players that earn their paycheck in real time.
I'm glad you guys aren't general managers  
WillieYoung : 1/2/2019 9:14 am : link
The cap savings in 7.5. Increasing this years savings by reducing next years savings is a fools errand and is irrelevant to the 2019 decision (unless you are desperate for cap savings which we are not). Using the 6th pick to "replace" OV means you are not going to be better in 2019. Signing high price free agents to replace him only puts us in this same position in a few years.
A couple thoughts imv  
JonC : 1/2/2019 9:22 am : link
Anthony Barr is reportedly a knucklehead, buyer beware.

Wouldn't rest laurels on Carter, not remotely.

Ferrell looks like a 4-3 DE to me, not a 3-4 ER.
RE: I'm glad you guys aren't general managers  
WillVAB : 1/2/2019 9:55 am : link
In comment 14243852 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
The cap savings in 7.5. Increasing this years savings by reducing next years savings is a fools errand and is irrelevant to the 2019 decision (unless you are desperate for cap savings which we are not). Using the 6th pick to "replace" OV means you are not going to be better in 2019. Signing high price free agents to replace him only puts us in this same position in a few years.


Huh? If the Giants cut Vernon they save 11.5 million in 19 and 19.5 million beyond.

Again, this isnít a one for one deal. The Giants donít need to replace him in FA. Itís a net positive for the Giants if they are able to add one or two quality FAís on the OL and/or front 7 with the savings.

Vernon had 7 sacks this year. Heís not worth a 19.5 mil cap hit. Use the money on a player or players who can actually be difference makers.
Guy had almost zero impact the last two years  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/2/2019 12:33 pm : link
Always hurt and didnít help the D. He was good Year one and useless the last two. Keeping him at that salary would be insane.

If they think he can be of any use the they have to have him to do a realistic incentive laden restructure. He should be one of the first guys asked not to bother coming back if he doesnít take a huge cut
Heís a kneeler... Hurt all the time.  
Damon : 1/2/2019 4:41 pm : link
Trade him or cut him.
he's a kneeler  
bc4life : 1/2/2019 7:35 pm : link
wtf?
RE: Heís a kneeler... Hurt all the time.  
Dinger : 1/3/2019 2:21 pm : link
In comment 14244805 Damon said:
Quote:
Trade him or cut him.


The only way to view this is if he is a 'locker room' issue kind of guy. If they were willing to pay for quality locker room guys like stewart and omameh and vernon is quality, then then I think DG makes more of an effort to keep him. If not, they traded more impactful players in Apple and Snacks, why wouldn't they get rid of an attitude with salary?
He's probably our  
Metnut : 1/3/2019 2:25 pm : link
best defensive player. The defense is already bad. Getting rid of him will make it awfully hard for the defense to really turn around in 2019.
I'm not sure if his  
RinR : 1/3/2019 4:05 pm : link
injury issues the last 2 seasons is predictive of his future health going forward but he's missed 9 games the last 2 seasons.

The 5 seasons prior to that he missed 0 games. Just putting some of these "he's hurt all the time" comments into perspective.

Having said that, I agree he is overpaid but if he is willing to restructure I would bring him back.
Trade or Cut Him  
GMoney : 1/3/2019 7:31 pm : link
Please
trade him if you can  
.McL. : 1/3/2019 11:14 pm : link
not sure what we can get for him...
The Giants only save 7.5 million by cutting him... And you need a replacement...

On the other hand it is attractive to get him off the books for 2020.

If we can't trade him, I am inclined to let it be. Another bad contract Reese saddled us with.

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