that even John Harbaugh doesn’t think this offense is sustainable. It’s working now, so they are riding it out. Taking it to the very limit, and willing to put LJax at risk.
that even John Harbaugh doesn’t think this offense is sustainable. It’s working now, so they are riding it out. Taking it to the very limit, and willing to put LJax at risk.
Very similar to RG3. But the 'Skins "forced" RG3 to continue playing with an injured knee that eventually gave way. I hope Baltimore would not do the same.
Cannot blame Harbaugh for riding it out. Kid is fun to watch playing college offense in the NFL. But you just cannot let your franchise QB continue to mix it up with NFL LBs.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
He wasn't great in 2014 or 2015 either.
Nothing on the Niners was great in 2014 or 2015. That's when the Harbaugh thing blew up.
Therein lies the point. From 2014 to 2016, the Niners shuffled through three head coaches, three offensive coordinators, and three different offensive schemes to go along with players fleeing the sinking ship left and right and the 32nd ranked defense mixed in for good measure
It's not a situation conducive to any success for anyone.
Are great passers but also good athletes who can pull the ball down and beat you by either running for first downs or escaping pressure. Wilson has a super bowl, multiple playoff appearances and an almost lifetime regular season70% winning percentage. Ditto Rodgers and Ben. Montana and Young were also very good scramblers. Why is it a negative to have another weapon that defenses need to respect?
were fairly well aligned in wanting Jackson in the draft.
He didn't like the antics, but still thought highly of Jackson as a prospect.
I balked because having your Mom as your agent is a really bad idea, along with the other pre-draft actions. They were big red flags.
And let's keep in mind, Jackson's story isn't written yet. At this point, he's a good running QB who helped the Ravens get to the playoffs. Let's see what the future holds.
which isnt bad at all... and he can help them win games... but he's not revolutionizing the position by any means.. we've seen a dozen of this type of QB before.
And if he continues to take hits like I saw in the Cleveland and Atlanta games, his career will be over by age 26.
As Arc pointed out, we couldn't get away with it right now due to out weak defensive roster and not that quality of OL either.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
To each their own I guess. The Ravens are winning right now and that is the most important thing. I’ve made a point to check out all the Ravens games since Jackson took over bevy I am very intrigued to see how he’d fair in the NFL. So far so good, but from a less important aesthetic side, to me, it’s just not fun to watch. I have no interest in watching a glorified wildcat offense. It bores me to tears. Something annoys the hell out of me watching the QB tuck the ball and run every play. It’s always drove me crazy watching it happen during college games and it drives me crazy at the NFL level.
Again, winning is the most important thing so I understand it if it’s successful. But I also think there should be some entertainment value attached to watching games and for me, watching QBs take off and run every play isn’t all that entertaining. I’d take it if it meant us winning games, it’s just not my idea of entertaining
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
It is contrarian which in football has a built in advantage, at least until teams can adjust. But, it must be a bitch to prepare for and with the modern NFL teams may not have the players to deal with it either.
It is fun to watch and it takes huge balls to do this in the NFL. Maybe the coach was getting canned anyway so he figure what the hell. In the pros there is a built in pressure against doing anything contrarian to the other teams because if it goes everyone will blame the coach who is doing something different and say it was his fault, that he is a crazy nut.
Personally I think it is very entertaining but I am skeptical it will start a trend around the league or that even Baltimore will look to play this style long term. That said of they win it all this year that matters less.
The risk to the QB is the problem and athletes like Jackson are rare even if they do not have great throwing ability. The only thing hits a QB would take in this type of system long term is probably unsustainable on the pro level.
I wish it wasn't Baltimore because I still hold a grudge from the 2000 ass kicking, I really would love a team playing like this to win it all. They do have a great defense and they are a physical team. Try this with the Giants and it would not work.
The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
RE: RE: RE: Ravens sound like a really fun team to watch Â
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
How about his first game as a starter? 19 passing attempts, 26 rushes.
The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
I think it is if they base their whole offense around that and continue to select players and build a roster with that philosophy in mind. It certainly is contrarian even this season which does make it difficult for teams to prepare. They are different then all if the other playoff teams.
The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
It's not revolutionary - yet. If it starts a trend and more teams incorporate rate the idea then we have to revisit the revolutionary part.
But it sure is daring in a league that encourages you to do the complete opposite. And then the sheer will and discipline to stick with it is admirable.
will build their offense around Jackson. It isn't just unsustainable, but if he gets injured, they'll have to scrap it.
The offense integrated more designed runs for the QB in it and deemphasized the throws outside the hashmarks. Let's not make it sound like Harbaugh is running a new scheme or is even planning to going forward.
But it sure is daring in a league that encourages you to do the complete opposite. And then the sheer will and discipline to stick with it is admirable.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
is the increased injury risk. Jackson didn't miss any "starts", but he did miss a substantial part of the Falcons game (15 snaps, 20%) and I think suffered a concussion towards the end of the Chiefs game.
And that's with Jackson as starter for only 7 games. He's likely to miss multiple games (see Vick) if he played this style for a full season. So if a team did want to go with this approach, they'd need to have a viable backup (or two) which means increasing the draft or cap capital spent on the position. Seeing as Jackson was a first round pick, you're likely talking about spending multiple firsts on the QB position just to have enough depth at the position. And I disagree with the notion that their are tons of players like Jackson produced by the NCAA each year. That's quite belittling to Jackson and what he's been able to do.
And none of this even considers the likely shorter career of a player like Jackson relative to traditional pocket passers or even mobile QBs like Luck/Rodgers (i.e. the argument against Barkley). Even the much bigger Newton is showing signs of wear and tear and he's not even 30.
Finally, let's see him have success over multiple seasons. Chip Kelly's offense looked revolutionary year 1 too...
I suspect that the Ravens long term plan with Lamar Â
It would be weirder if they expected him to play the same way Flacco does.
I don't think this is what they plan to do going forward. I'm positive if you asked Newsome what he was thinking, he expects that Jackson will continue to grow as a passer.
They didn't do this haphazardly. They drafted Jackson and partnered him with a QB coach/OC that knows how to work with QBs. They're expecting him to develop his game as well.
RE: Jackson was playing as Flacco's backup until Week 14. Â
But it sure is daring in a league that encourages you to do the complete opposite. And then the sheer will and discipline to stick with it is admirable.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
No I don't know if they will. If they did that would be quite different than basically all the other 31 teams. Also, I agree he will get hurt, but I guess if you went all. In on this you would draft QB'S in this mold to backup.
RE: Scheming around what you have is good coaching Â
It would be weirder if they expected him to play the same way Flacco does.
I don't think this is what they plan to do going forward. I'm positive if you asked Newsome what he was thinking, he expects that Jackson will continue to grow as a passer.
They didn't do this haphazardly. They drafted Jackson and partnered him with a QB coach/OC that knows how to work with QBs. They're expecting him to develop his game as well.
Makes sense, would be something if they won it all though.
RE: RE: I suspect that the Ravens long term plan with Lamar Â
would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
YPA says more about the offense being run than anything else. Really doesn't tell you anything about the arm of the QB, so comparing Jackson's YPA to Eli's doesn't say anything other than that they both play in offenses that utilize the short passing game.
Guys who are at the top of the league in YPA aren't always good QB's - they just generally play in more vertical offenses.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
Not for nuttin’, but iirc, didn’t the Ravens go 5 games without scoring an offensive TD?
The idea that you can just keep running this system and recycling the QB to keep from investing major cap dollars into the position has a major flaw.
If the concepts you're using don't change, it doesn't matter.
It's not necessarily the QB getting hurt that stops this from working. It's more often that DC's collect the film they need and figure out how to force the offense out of what they're trying to do.
On a much smaller scale, it was like when Alabama played the Citadel a few weeks ago. In the first half, the triple option and all of the cut blocking was something the Alabama defense hadn't seen in a while (for most of the players, ever) and playing an offense like that requires a different approach. It was giving them fits and the game was actually close at halftime much to the surprise of virtually every football fan on the planet.
Alabama adjusted during half, figured out the blocking scheme, and then the Citadel were SOL because they had no other way to attack.
That's what happens here when you run offenses like these with a limited passer. Jackson either improves and allows them to continue installing additional concepts, making it harder for defenses to catch up and defend them - or, the more likely scenario, is that he only improves marginally throwing the football, defenses catch up, and this stops working.
It won't matter who you replace Jackson with if he gets hurt. If the QB struggles throwing the football outside the hashes or struggles with particular routes, you're giving opposing DC's fewer things to key on and they'll shut it down.
The other thing - as I've already mentioned - is that this doesn't work without the defense. You can't play offense like this and trade points or play catch up. This whole thing is designed to get ahead and grind the other team down.
There are too many reasons why it's not sustainable long-term and why every time something like this pops up in the NFL, it sinks in short order.
I mostly agree. The QB position isn't fungible. And while you can find running QBs, it's very difficult to find a QB who can run a 4.3 (or better) like LJax. That's crazy fast...
I mostly agree. The QB position isn't fungible. And while you can find running QBs, it's very difficult to find a QB who can run a 4.3 (or better) like LJax. That's crazy fast...
I think it's harder to find guys with 85% of his athleticism that can also throw competently. Tebow's issue wasn't his running even though he wasn't close to a 4.3, it was that he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.
For this strategy to be successful, you need to find multiple players (2-3 at least) that: 1) are serious rushing threats which is more than just straight line speed and 2) average passers. And you need to continuously do so to avoid paying them significant money on the open market.
So while you have extra cap $$ to spend elsewhere, you're tying a lot more of your draft resources into the QB position (i.e. less picks for other positions).
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'.
"Figured him out" seems to be little more than a recklessly uttered cliche that people only apply to one case: running QBs who don't sustain early success, for whatever reason.
You don't hear about other players or teams being "figured out" when their performance declines. Was Derek Carr figured out after 2016? Chris Johnson after 2009?
Was the 2016 Giants D figured out in 2017? Has Landon Collins been figured out?
No one has argued they were, I imagine because people will look to other reasons to explain their decline. But somehow that doesn't occur with running QBs.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'.
"Figured him out" seems to be little more than a recklessly uttered cliche that people only apply to one case: running QBs who don't sustain early success, for whatever reason.
You don't hear about other players or teams being "figured out" when their performance declines. Was Derek Carr figured out after 2016? Chris Johnson after 2009?
Was the 2016 Giants D figured out in 2017? Has Landon Collins been figured out?
No one has argued they were, I imagine because people will look to other reasons to explain their decline. But somehow that doesn't occur with running QBs.
If someone achieves short term success by following "normal" patterns, then teams don't need to adjust (i.e. "figure them out").
You hear the term "figure them out" applied to all types of gimmicky offenses though (I think I used it with regards to Chip Kelly's system earlier in this thread). And it was certainly used in reference to defenses adjusting to the RPO.
And people always talk about Ds adjusting to rookie QBs and seeing if they have sustained success.
RE: RE: RE: Also, if he's such a terrible passer Â
Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
So you could say, Flacco has been figured out?
Most fans figured out Flacco sucked years ago. Most thought the Ravens were nuts for signing Flacco to that deal and he's done nothing to prove them wrong since then.
about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
True - they are running LJax in greater volume. If that's what you mean by "much differently".
My overarching point is that the Ravens have a coach in Roman who has experience is constructing an offense around a run-threat QB.
about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
True - they are running LJax in greater volume. If that's what you mean by "much differently".
My overarching point is that the Ravens have a coach in Roman who has experience is constructing an offense around a run-threat QB.
Kaep averaged 6 carries a game in the 7 starts he had when he was made the starter in 2012. He threw for under 200 yards once in 7 games - 185 yards. The 49ers never ran for 200 yards in any of those 7 games and averaged 137 yards rushing a game.
Lamar averaged 17 carries a game in his 7 starts. He threw for more than 200 yards once in 7 games - 204 yards. The Ravens ran for over 200 yards 5 of 7 games (192 and 159 in the other 2) and averaged 230 yards rushing a game.
If you think they are being used the same, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Kaep averaged 6 carries a game in the 7 starts he had when he was made the starter in 2012. He threw for under 200 yards once in 7 games - 185 yards. The 49ers never ran for 200 yards in any of those 7 games and averaged 137 yards rushing a game.
Lamar averaged 17 carries a game in his 7 starts. He threw for more than 200 yards once in 7 games - 204 yards. The Ravens ran for over 200 yards 5 of 7 games (192 and 159 in the other 2) and averaged 230 yards rushing a game.
If you think they are being used the same, I'm not sure what to tell you.
I cede the point that the Ravens are using LJax with greater frequency.
But Kaep was averaging like 500+ yards rushing per season for a three year stretch. So there were designed runs, just not in the same frequency as the Ravens are doing with LJax. Furthermore, the 9ers also had the luxury of Frank Gore as their RB. A very dependable, established resource.
Again, the point is the Ravens have a guy like Roman on their staff who once deployed QB run-options for a prior team. Thus, that experience has been a key for the Ravens scheming run options for LJax.
If you can't see the benefit of having Roman on the Ravens, I'm not sure what to tell you.
would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
Stats are rarely the tell-all, but you’re discounting LJ’s amount of throws to Eli’s?
If the topic is arm strength, which he seemed to be inferring by saying his arm is a joke, I'm not discounting amount of throws. Everyone who has actually seen Jackson play more than once knows he has more than enough arm to play at the pro level. He threw well in college and tested well at the combine. Hes got a plus arm easily. If anything, he OVERthrows.
Legitimate questions are accuracy and mechanics, and jackson himself is fine talking about what he needs to improve on and repeat with better consistency, but saying his arm is a joke is a non-point.
Very similar to RG3. But the 'Skins "forced" RG3 to continue playing with an injured knee that eventually gave way. I hope Baltimore would not do the same.
Cannot blame Harbaugh for riding it out. Kid is fun to watch playing college offense in the NFL. But you just cannot let your franchise QB continue to mix it up with NFL LBs.
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In comment 14246938 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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take:
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I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
He wasn't great in 2014 or 2015 either.
Nothing on the Niners was great in 2014 or 2015. That's when the Harbaugh thing blew up.
Therein lies the point. From 2014 to 2016, the Niners shuffled through three head coaches, three offensive coordinators, and three different offensive schemes to go along with players fleeing the sinking ship left and right and the 32nd ranked defense mixed in for good measure
It's not a situation conducive to any success for anyone.
but thanks for regaling us on the QB's of yore.
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In comment 14246326 Go Terps said:
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He took a non-playoff team and made it a playoff team.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
You’re gonna be insufferable with this kid.
He's already insufferable.
Terps didn’t want him during his draft antics. But now he does. Hypocrite
He didn't like the antics, but still thought highly of Jackson as a prospect.
I balked because having your Mom as your agent is a really bad idea, along with the other pre-draft actions. They were big red flags.
And let's keep in mind, Jackson's story isn't written yet. At this point, he's a good running QB who helped the Ravens get to the playoffs. Let's see what the future holds.
but thanks for regaling us on the QB's of yore.
There have been a couple threads started in the past week about Jackson's impact.
When a thread is started about Jackson being pedestrian or sucking as a passer, I'm sure there will be a counter-point to that too.
People aren't discrediting Jackson as much as they are tempering the idea he is doing things we haven't seen before - think the Cam Newton principle
And if he continues to take hits like I saw in the Cleveland and Atlanta games, his career will be over by age 26.
Can't be. "Escapes" count as run attempts as well.
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As Arc pointed out, we couldn't get away with it right now due to out weak defensive roster and not that quality of OL either.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
To each their own I guess. The Ravens are winning right now and that is the most important thing. I’ve made a point to check out all the Ravens games since Jackson took over bevy I am very intrigued to see how he’d fair in the NFL. So far so good, but from a less important aesthetic side, to me, it’s just not fun to watch. I have no interest in watching a glorified wildcat offense. It bores me to tears. Something annoys the hell out of me watching the QB tuck the ball and run every play. It’s always drove me crazy watching it happen during college games and it drives me crazy at the NFL level.
Again, winning is the most important thing so I understand it if it’s successful. But I also think there should be some entertainment value attached to watching games and for me, watching QBs take off and run every play isn’t all that entertaining. I’d take it if it meant us winning games, it’s just not my idea of entertaining
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
It is contrarian which in football has a built in advantage, at least until teams can adjust. But, it must be a bitch to prepare for and with the modern NFL teams may not have the players to deal with it either.
It is fun to watch and it takes huge balls to do this in the NFL. Maybe the coach was getting canned anyway so he figure what the hell. In the pros there is a built in pressure against doing anything contrarian to the other teams because if it goes everyone will blame the coach who is doing something different and say it was his fault, that he is a crazy nut.
Personally I think it is very entertaining but I am skeptical it will start a trend around the league or that even Baltimore will look to play this style long term. That said of they win it all this year that matters less.
The risk to the QB is the problem and athletes like Jackson are rare even if they do not have great throwing ability. The only thing hits a QB would take in this type of system long term is probably unsustainable on the pro level.
I wish it wasn't Baltimore because I still hold a grudge from the 2000 ass kicking, I really would love a team playing like this to win it all. They do have a great defense and they are a physical team. Try this with the Giants and it would not work.
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
How about his first game as a starter? 19 passing attempts, 26 rushes.
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The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
I think it is if they base their whole offense around that and continue to select players and build a roster with that philosophy in mind. It certainly is contrarian even this season which does make it difficult for teams to prepare. They are different then all if the other playoff teams.
If I recall Wildcat was just brought in sometimes and not a total offense.
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The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
It's not revolutionary - yet. If it starts a trend and more teams incorporate rate the idea then we have to revisit the revolutionary part.
But it sure is daring in a league that encourages you to do the complete opposite. And then the sheer will and discipline to stick with it is admirable.
The offense integrated more designed runs for the QB in it and deemphasized the throws outside the hashmarks. Let's not make it sound like Harbaugh is running a new scheme or is even planning to going forward.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
And that's with Jackson as starter for only 7 games. He's likely to miss multiple games (see Vick) if he played this style for a full season. So if a team did want to go with this approach, they'd need to have a viable backup (or two) which means increasing the draft or cap capital spent on the position. Seeing as Jackson was a first round pick, you're likely talking about spending multiple firsts on the QB position just to have enough depth at the position. And I disagree with the notion that their are tons of players like Jackson produced by the NCAA each year. That's quite belittling to Jackson and what he's been able to do.
And none of this even considers the likely shorter career of a player like Jackson relative to traditional pocket passers or even mobile QBs like Luck/Rodgers (i.e. the argument against Barkley). Even the much bigger Newton is showing signs of wear and tear and he's not even 30.
Finally, let's see him have success over multiple seasons. Chip Kelly's offense looked revolutionary year 1 too...
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
I don't think this is what they plan to do going forward. I'm positive if you asked Newsome what he was thinking, he expects that Jackson will continue to grow as a passer.
They didn't do this haphazardly. They drafted Jackson and partnered him with a QB coach/OC that knows how to work with QBs. They're expecting him to develop his game as well.
Figured you were splitting hairs. Jackson started the Bengals game. Whether he was "officially" the starter or not seems irrelevant.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
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But it sure is daring in a league that encourages you to do the complete opposite. And then the sheer will and discipline to stick with it is admirable.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
No I don't know if they will. If they did that would be quite different than basically all the other 31 teams. Also, I agree he will get hurt, but I guess if you went all. In on this you would draft QB'S in this mold to backup.
I don't think this is what they plan to do going forward. I'm positive if you asked Newsome what he was thinking, he expects that Jackson will continue to grow as a passer.
They didn't do this haphazardly. They drafted Jackson and partnered him with a QB coach/OC that knows how to work with QBs. They're expecting him to develop his game as well.
Makes sense, would be something if they won it all though.
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would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
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In comment 14247181 YAJ2112 said:
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would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
Stats are rarely the tell-all, but you’re discounting LJ’s amount of throws to Eli’s?
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In comment 14247181 YAJ2112 said:
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would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
YPA says more about the offense being run than anything else. Really doesn't tell you anything about the arm of the QB, so comparing Jackson's YPA to Eli's doesn't say anything other than that they both play in offenses that utilize the short passing game.
Guys who are at the top of the league in YPA aren't always good QB's - they just generally play in more vertical offenses.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
QB's who have YPA's under 7:
- Darnold
- Stafford
- Allen
- Flacco
- Rosen
I don't think a single one of them is considered to have a below-average arm
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You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
Not for nuttin’, but iirc, didn’t the Ravens go 5 games without scoring an offensive TD?
The idea that you can just keep running this system and recycling the QB to keep from investing major cap dollars into the position has a major flaw.
If the concepts you're using don't change, it doesn't matter.
It's not necessarily the QB getting hurt that stops this from working. It's more often that DC's collect the film they need and figure out how to force the offense out of what they're trying to do.
On a much smaller scale, it was like when Alabama played the Citadel a few weeks ago. In the first half, the triple option and all of the cut blocking was something the Alabama defense hadn't seen in a while (for most of the players, ever) and playing an offense like that requires a different approach. It was giving them fits and the game was actually close at halftime much to the surprise of virtually every football fan on the planet.
Alabama adjusted during half, figured out the blocking scheme, and then the Citadel were SOL because they had no other way to attack.
That's what happens here when you run offenses like these with a limited passer. Jackson either improves and allows them to continue installing additional concepts, making it harder for defenses to catch up and defend them - or, the more likely scenario, is that he only improves marginally throwing the football, defenses catch up, and this stops working.
It won't matter who you replace Jackson with if he gets hurt. If the QB struggles throwing the football outside the hashes or struggles with particular routes, you're giving opposing DC's fewer things to key on and they'll shut it down.
The other thing - as I've already mentioned - is that this doesn't work without the defense. You can't play offense like this and trade points or play catch up. This whole thing is designed to get ahead and grind the other team down.
There are too many reasons why it's not sustainable long-term and why every time something like this pops up in the NFL, it sinks in short order.
I think it's harder to find guys with 85% of his athleticism that can also throw competently. Tebow's issue wasn't his running even though he wasn't close to a 4.3, it was that he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.
For this strategy to be successful, you need to find multiple players (2-3 at least) that: 1) are serious rushing threats which is more than just straight line speed and 2) average passers. And you need to continuously do so to avoid paying them significant money on the open market.
So while you have extra cap $$ to spend elsewhere, you're tying a lot more of your draft resources into the QB position (i.e. less picks for other positions).
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'.
"Figured him out" seems to be little more than a recklessly uttered cliche that people only apply to one case: running QBs who don't sustain early success, for whatever reason.
You don't hear about other players or teams being "figured out" when their performance declines. Was Derek Carr figured out after 2016? Chris Johnson after 2009?
Was the 2016 Giants D figured out in 2017? Has Landon Collins been figured out?
No one has argued they were, I imagine because people will look to other reasons to explain their decline. But somehow that doesn't occur with running QBs.
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You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
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Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
So you could say, Flacco has been figured out?
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I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'.
"Figured him out" seems to be little more than a recklessly uttered cliche that people only apply to one case: running QBs who don't sustain early success, for whatever reason.
You don't hear about other players or teams being "figured out" when their performance declines. Was Derek Carr figured out after 2016? Chris Johnson after 2009?
Was the 2016 Giants D figured out in 2017? Has Landon Collins been figured out?
No one has argued they were, I imagine because people will look to other reasons to explain their decline. But somehow that doesn't occur with running QBs.
If someone achieves short term success by following "normal" patterns, then teams don't need to adjust (i.e. "figure them out").
You hear the term "figure them out" applied to all types of gimmicky offenses though (I think I used it with regards to Chip Kelly's system earlier in this thread). And it was certainly used in reference to defenses adjusting to the RPO.
And people always talk about Ds adjusting to rookie QBs and seeing if they have sustained success.
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In comment 14246928 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
So you could say, Flacco has been figured out?
Most fans figured out Flacco sucked years ago. Most thought the Ravens were nuts for signing Flacco to that deal and he's done nothing to prove them wrong since then.
about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
True - they are running LJax in greater volume. If that's what you mean by "much differently".
My overarching point is that the Ravens have a coach in Roman who has experience is constructing an offense around a run-threat QB.
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about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
True - they are running LJax in greater volume. If that's what you mean by "much differently".
My overarching point is that the Ravens have a coach in Roman who has experience is constructing an offense around a run-threat QB.
Kaep averaged 6 carries a game in the 7 starts he had when he was made the starter in 2012. He threw for under 200 yards once in 7 games - 185 yards. The 49ers never ran for 200 yards in any of those 7 games and averaged 137 yards rushing a game.
Lamar averaged 17 carries a game in his 7 starts. He threw for more than 200 yards once in 7 games - 204 yards. The Ravens ran for over 200 yards 5 of 7 games (192 and 159 in the other 2) and averaged 230 yards rushing a game.
If you think they are being used the same, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Kaep averaged 6 carries a game in the 7 starts he had when he was made the starter in 2012. He threw for under 200 yards once in 7 games - 185 yards. The 49ers never ran for 200 yards in any of those 7 games and averaged 137 yards rushing a game.
Lamar averaged 17 carries a game in his 7 starts. He threw for more than 200 yards once in 7 games - 204 yards. The Ravens ran for over 200 yards 5 of 7 games (192 and 159 in the other 2) and averaged 230 yards rushing a game.
If you think they are being used the same, I'm not sure what to tell you.
I cede the point that the Ravens are using LJax with greater frequency.
But Kaep was averaging like 500+ yards rushing per season for a three year stretch. So there were designed runs, just not in the same frequency as the Ravens are doing with LJax. Furthermore, the 9ers also had the luxury of Frank Gore as their RB. A very dependable, established resource.
Again, the point is the Ravens have a guy like Roman on their staff who once deployed QB run-options for a prior team. Thus, that experience has been a key for the Ravens scheming run options for LJax.
If you can't see the benefit of having Roman on the Ravens, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Even here, at the other end of that spectrum, we saw the reemergence of the QB sneak.
Hostetler, Rogers reminded me of Hoss early on. Not the gifted juke-er, but, when he did run, it was an instant decision.
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In comment 14247184 mittenedman said:
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In comment 14247181 YAJ2112 said:
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would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
Stats are rarely the tell-all, but you’re discounting LJ’s amount of throws to Eli’s?
If the topic is arm strength, which he seemed to be inferring by saying his arm is a joke, I'm not discounting amount of throws. Everyone who has actually seen Jackson play more than once knows he has more than enough arm to play at the pro level. He threw well in college and tested well at the combine. Hes got a plus arm easily. If anything, he OVERthrows.
Legitimate questions are accuracy and mechanics, and jackson himself is fine talking about what he needs to improve on and repeat with better consistency, but saying his arm is a joke is a non-point.
Cool stuff