And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
What they have that we don't is a dominant OL. They managed to make two very average RBs into studs. If SB is behind that OL, he might average 180 yards a game.
but I will say its an interesting stat, hard to believe that Vick ran less in any one season.
He's a great fit for Baltimore. But other than that I'll reserve judgement until he plays a full season. He's going to have to get better at passing to have any longevity in this league.
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
So you are telling me Lamar Jackson is a better runner than Saquon Barkley?
A gimmick offense built around a run first QB might work for a little while. But it is not something you can get away with long term. Not only will Jackson have to greatly improve his passing, but that many running attempts is going to quickly take a toll on his body. Barkley is built to do this for the next decade. Jackson is not.
RE: RE: He should have the rookie of the year IMO Â
Jackson is a far superior athlete. Much quicker/faster/more instinctive. He's more like Mike Vick.
Tebow though is a lot bigger. 240lbs and cut from granite. He could absorb the hits. Jackson like Vick is about 215lbs. Vick had been clocked as low as 4.25 in the 40. Jackson didn't run in the combine but predicted he would be right around 4.38. People forget how crazy athletic Vick was.
Just like size and strength dont equate to health. Allen and Brady and Roethlisberger are all 'size' prospects that have gotten hurt. Cam Newton too. We had people here saying Mayfield was too small too.
Steve Young wasn't some hulking hercules. Nor was Randall Cunningham.
It's knowing when to run. RG3 was stupidly reckless with the hits he took. And the hit that really finished his knee happened because he went flying in the air and crashed his knee into a defensive tackle.
And I'm happy to see him doing well in Baltimore (And that is a CRAZY stat). Their OL looks pretty good at run blocking But at some point he will be hit by hard by NFL speed/power and he is not built for that... I hate to say it but it's just a matter of time. And his throwing is still awful. He is hella fun to watch though.
RE: Before anyone annoints Lamar Jackson a great QB Â
just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Unfortunately he’ll be hurt before the league even has a chance to figure him out. Running QBs like him end up with short NFL careers just about 99% of the time.
Jackson is playing well and he's perfect for that team. But history shows there's a high probability of it being unsustainable, so we will see. The Giants were also one of the worst fits for Jackson anyway so I don't think its something we were ready to emulate anytime soon even if we wanted to.
As for RoY, no chance. Its Barkley/Mayfield and no one else.
I guess Jackson is going to revolutionize the NFL. Bring back the single wing. Maybe some triple option stuff. Hell, teams may as well just use ru ning backs at QB.
just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
He went 4-20 in his last 24 starts, he might have gotten figured out.
What I like is that someone is finally committing to building a running offense around a running quarterback. Baltimore's defense is really good, no doubt. And now the way they are playing is making their jobs easier.
I like Jackson, but for me it's more about the style of offense. I enjoy watching it in a league where passing dominates.
As for sustainability, the style definitely is. Will Jackson have a long career running it 10-15 times a game, I don't know. But for right now, they're winning games. And if it isn't sustainable for Jackson, college football produces a lot more QBs like him than it does guys like Drew Brees.
just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
He was terrible over his final two seasons. He was benched in favor of Blaine Gabbert.
RE: Speaking of Kaepernick, he was damn close to winning a Super Bowl Â
What I like is that someone is finally committing to building a running offense around a running quarterback. Baltimore's defense is really good, no doubt. And now the way they are playing is making their jobs easier.
I like Jackson, but for me it's more about the style of offense. I enjoy watching it in a league where passing dominates.
As for sustainability, the style definitely is. Will Jackson have a long career running it 10-15 times a game, I don't know. But for right now, they're winning games. And if it isn't sustainable for Jackson, college football produces a lot more QBs like him than it does guys like Drew Brees.
This reminds me of the Rex led Jets. The problem is in today's NFL you need to be able to pass. It doesn't mean that you need to do it all the time but they need these games to stay close or have the lead. If they get down early they will not be able to play catch up.
Running the ball and playing defense is always going to be a recipe for success but there needs to be that other element unless you control the games. And sometimes that isn't possible because of turnovers, special teams play, etc.
just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
He was terrible over his final two seasons. He was benched in favor of Blaine Gabbert.
16 touchdowns, 4 interceptions, completion percentage in line with his previous two season and a 90 rating isn't terrible. To this day I'm not sure why people say he was terrible. The niners as team were awful. We know this because after that year they fired everyone and every thing in the building.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
They would be fighting for carries?
Yeah, RPO with Jackson and Barkley would be interesting.
RE: RE: Speaking of Kaepernick, he was damn close to winning a Super Bowl Â
I was just as much a proponent of Jackson as Terps was - but the difference is that what Baltimore is doing with him doesn't work here. He's a great fit for that football team because the personnel matches up with the type of game you have to play if you're using him.
The notion that we're on a level playing field with the Ravens in terms of personnel is not even close to true. Their offensive line is much better than ours and our defense isn't even in the same league as theirs right now.
You can't play a run-heavy, RPO-based ball control game with a leaky defense and crappy OL. It never would have worked for NYG with the current state of the roster and it would have been harder for us to craft the correct cast.
Baltimore drafted Jackson because they knew they could install a RPO-heavy package that would work with him. The personnel lines up. It would have taken more than one offseason to install that type of offense here. I was still willing to do it, but I understand why that wasn't the direction we chose to go.
Beyond that, for NYG to have drafted Jackson, they'd have had to surrender additional assets to move up, and would be without Hernandez. So, remove additional picks AND the best young player on the offensive line to get Jackson and you're setting him up to fail.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
Are almost equal (pass 53% rush 47%). His position should be QB/RB
When Kapernick led the niners to the super bowl in 2012 it was 78% pass 22% rush (almost identical to Griffin in 2012 at 77% pass and Vick in 2004 who passed 73% of the time)
I was just as much a proponent of Jackson as Terps was - but the difference is that what Baltimore is doing with him doesn't work here. He's a great fit for that football team because the personnel matches up with the type of game you have to play if you're using him.
The notion that we're on a level playing field with the Ravens in terms of personnel is not even close to true. Their offensive line is much better than ours and our defense isn't even in the same league as theirs right now.
You can't play a run-heavy, RPO-based ball control game with a leaky defense and crappy OL. It never would have worked for NYG with the current state of the roster and it would have been harder for us to craft the correct cast.
Baltimore drafted Jackson because they knew they could install a RPO-heavy package that would work with him. The personnel lines up. It would have taken more than one offseason to install that type of offense here. I was still willing to do it, but I understand why that wasn't the direction we chose to go.
Beyond that, for NYG to have drafted Jackson, they'd have had to surrender additional assets to move up, and would be without Hernandez. So, remove additional picks AND the best young player on the offensive line to get Jackson and you're setting him up to fail.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
It's going to reach that point for sure - can LJax beat you with his arm?
Because there is no way with that body type he can take the wear and tear.
Look, I loved his skill set out of Louisville, but thought he would accelerate quicker as a thrower. Roman and Marty have simply gone the other way, tabled his passing development, and are all in on this college running game.
On Kaepernick he could absolutely take over a game under Harbaugh the year they went to the SB. Hell he almost did it in the SB. Still surprised they lost that game actually... I don't think he was figured out as much as that team going to hell pretty quickly after Harbaugh left. I just think teams won't touch him at this point because of the polarization. It's a shame really.
To stop him, teams are going to have to keep a lot of traffic in the middle of the field and try to funnel everything outside. He struggles when he's pushing the ball outside the hash marks. Baltimore isn't even really asking him to make those throws because they know he can't do it with any consistency. So, if you keep a lot of traffic in front of him, odds are he'll be more reluctant to throw it and you'll force him outside of the pocket.
Obviously when he's out of the pocket, it presents another series of challenges to get a hold of him - but by limiting where he can throw the ball, it's easier to key in on stopping him from running.
They have to work with him as a thrower this offseason - I think they'll be able to extend the amount of time this is effective if he can expand his throwing repertoire a bit. If he doesn't, DC's will find a way to shut this down before long.
They're doing something right in the pass game with him Â
He's still throwing the ball 23 times a game, which is not nothing. And he's averaging 7.1 yards/attempt. That's still low in today's pass happy NFL, but it's not terrible. He's thrown 3 picks, but they all came in his first 2 games. He hasn't thrown a pick in his last 5 games.
I hope they do well in the playoffs. I want to believe that there's still a place in the NFL for the something other than throwing the ball.
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
RE: Speaking of Kaepernick, he was damn close to winning a Super Bowl Â
If you pull that off, who cares about sustainability?
Lol, so now you don't care about sustainability? So if they win a title, but the next season the inuries start piling up- first minor, then major ones, which is what happens to all running QB's - and they start to lose games, and start missing playoffs for 6 out of 7 years, because they can't find a QB who is as effective; that will be OK in your book.
I'm sure guys like Jackson are a dime/dozen in college, right?
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
Correct - they have the best defense in the AFC and that frightens BB.
Their signature win, 22-10 over LA Chargers in week 16, jncluded a defensive TD.
There isn't one sane voter that would give a guy completing 6.5 passes for 74 yards per game to WRs, and leading the team to 22 offensive points per game a ROY over guys that played at a much higher level over a full season.
What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
He took 2-3 massive hits running the ball in the Cleveland game alone. He was forced from the Atlanta game for a while because of concussion concerns. He's a tough kid and the league is bending over backwards to protect mobile qbs even though in my book he's a running back once he passes the line of scrimmage.... but this isn't the ACC
I will discount how they are as a passers and just point out their chances to avoid injury.
Cam Newton: Listed at 6'5", 250 lbs. He's the size of a TE. He can handle more hits than most QBs. He's big enough to.
Russell Wilson: 5'11', 214lbs. Small but he's very smart when he runs with the football. He avoids the hits when at all possible. Scramble only to buy time and throw down field. When he does run, he tries to get out of bounds and/or stays out of harms way.
Lamar Jackson: 6'3", 212lbs. Tall and light on his feet. For comparison sake, RG3 was 6'2", 218lbs. Also similar to RG3, when he runs, he's reckless. He's always trying to get that extra yard.
Follow the link that shows his highlights from their week 17 win. Keep in mind, this is just from one game. He intentionally drives into a defender while running down the sideline when he clearly should have just stepped out of bounds (00:30). He also leans into a defender with his throwing shoulder (1:30). Here he actually drops his head to drive into another defender (3.00).
Again this was after watching just one game's highlights. This isn't even showing "mistakes" that he made during the game. He's not big enough to be so reckless when he's running with the ball. You jump out of bounds instead of taking the hit. You slide to protect your body, not lead with your head or throwing arm. Like RG3, he wants that extra yard. It's hard to fault a competitor but a QB just can't do that. Even when you are big enough to take the hits it's not smart but he's not even that.
just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
Yeah, beyond politics, Kaepernick had evolved past the read option stuff into a regular QB. RG3 never did.
I don't know...those highlights look pretty good to me.
Terps I was hoping he would fall to the Giants in the 2nd round. I think if he would stop running so recklessly, he "could" be a great QB. Still has a ways to go passing the ball as well but I think he could be great. However, they are running the read option, a lot. Just like the Redskins did with RG3. He runs recklessly, just like RG3 and I pointed that out. If he continues on this path, he will end up seriously injured and if he's lucky, a career backup.
He’s a rookie, so his default instinct right now is to take the run when the opportunity presents itself.
He’ll evolve into a passer. His completion rate went up during every year at college and his surrounding pieces sucked.
Will he evolve into a passer? This sounds all too familiar with the crowd of people telling us it was okay that Flowers sucked because he was young and he'd improve. Same with Jackson. Going into his final year people were very high on Jackson. He never developed that part of his game hence why he wasn't drafted earlier. Developing at the NFL level is rare. He is what he is. Take it or leave it but I would not bank on him becoming a better passer. Plus, stats are stats. As all Giants fans should know, stats regarding QBs are very misleading especially completion percentage. Eli always had a lower completion percentage under Gilbride because they loved attacking downfield. Under McAdoo and Shurmur, Eli has had his highest completion percentage years. Yet, it would be hard to tel me or anybody else that Eli is playing better now tham when he was younger. Playing QB isn't about stats. It is about making the appropriate reads and hitting the appropriate players among other things. Jackson has some easy windows to throw through because teams are more worried about his legs and he still misses guys. I don't know how that is all of a sudden going to change when is was completely obvious in college and now. I like him as a player but lets call him what he is and lets not assume he'll get better because progression is not always linear amd positive.
It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
All it takes is 4 weeks of film, and I'm not dismissing Jackson's talent, he's a superbly talented athlete and what he's doing is great fun to watch but it is not sustainable. All teams will do is watch some film and this will be over, it's not like Roman and Co. are inventing anything new. They are basically running the veer at this point, it's not easy to defend until you figure out the 4 or 5 keys the team is using to run it and then it's junk. This isn't the Big 8 circa 1984, you can't make this work long term in the NFL, you just can't. I've played, coached and studied this game since I could pick up a football and sure I'm not a scout or some savant but I know this game inside and out and time dictates that this offense will be figured out and absolutely strangled within due time. Remember the Wildcat? Remember RG3? Remember Kaepernick? You will also remember this, fondly, but it will be stomped to death in due time.
He’s a rookie, so his default instinct right now is to take the run when the opportunity presents itself.
He’ll evolve into a passer. His completion rate went up during every year at college and his surrounding pieces sucked.
No he's not, he can't throw outside the hashmarks, so your CBs, Ss and LBs can start to sit inside and shrink the field. He has no arm to push it past 28 yards horizontally and it will get him murdered eventually. He's got nothing on the ball, and that won't get better. He may be a darling for a while, but this is a league that requires a QB to throw more than just inside the hash marks. He's going to fail spectacularly because he can't throw the ball.
THe ravens OL, defense and stable coaching staff had nothing to do with the 10 wins.
Jackson is a nice story. Slow down a bit. For someone who can’t wait to dump cold water on anything Saquon Barkley related you sure bring the hyperbole with Jackson. But yea, he’s in the playoffs.....
What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
That's a nice theory. Has yet to materialize in the NFL.
Jackson is 8th among QBs in Average Completed Air Yards.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
Jackson is 8th among QBs in Average Completed Air Yards.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
People above are saying he has a noodle arm. You’re looking at air yards per attempt. I’m looking at only air yards on completed passes.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
That's a nice theory. Has yet to materialize in the NFL.
How has it not? Look at the number of QBs who run that have made playoff runs their rookie or first full years.
RG3
Vick
Kaepernick
Watson
Jackson
Tebow
Mariota didn’t make it until his 3rd full year but their record improved to 9-7 when his rushing attempts nearly doubled.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
Pocket passers (or guys like Young who were pocket passers first and runners second) are a LOT easier to find than running QB’s
- he's a terrible passer,
- Baltimore's defense is great, and
- he's reckless and will be injured.
I know GoTerps thinks he's smarter than our GM, but QB's that can run like LJackson aren't THAT common, and I wouldn't want to use a high draft pick every 2-3 years on the next running QB to fill the pipeline.
Baltimore is a dangerous team though, no doubt. Their defense shut down SanDiego.
- he's a terrible passer,
- Baltimore's defense is great, and
- he's reckless and will be injured.
I know GoTerps thinks he's smarter than our GM, but QB's that can run like LJackson aren't THAT common, and I wouldn't want to use a high draft pick every 2-3 years on the next running QB to fill the pipeline.
Baltimore is a dangerous team though, no doubt. Their defense shut down SanDiego.
Except terrible is an exaggeration, he’s not reckless and has never missed a game to injury yet
Jackson is 8th among QBs in Average Completed Air Yards.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
People above are saying he has a noodle arm. You’re looking at air yards per attempt. I’m looking at only air yards on completed passes.
I don't know if I agree with joey that he has a noodle arm but he is absolutely correct that he cannot throw outside of the hash marks. His accuracy in those areas is abysmal. And I don't see it improving. He's constantly changing his arm angle and release point. That just is not a recipe for consistent accuracy.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
There were a lot of documented issues with his Mom and he scored a 13 on the Wonderlic. 13!
already made the points, but it is important to reinforce it so there isn't a groundswell of errant opinions acting as if this is revolutionary.
It is a team with an excellent D using the ground game to control the ball and minimize mistakes/turnovers.
It really isn't too different from the style of play the Ravens implemented under Dilfer, except it wasn't the QB running, it was Jamal Lewis.
Until Jackson can beat people with his arm, nothing has been revolutionized. You simply don't last in the NFL as a one-dimensional player, even if you have initial success.
Not that it is a perfect parallel, but if memory serves, Tim Tebow won a playoff game.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
There were a lot of documented issues with his Mom and he scored a 13 on the Wonderlic. 13!
The wonderlic doesn’t measure football IQ. In fact it has zero football questions on it. While it can be used to measure overall intelligence it doesn’t always correlate to football IQ.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
All it takes is 4 weeks of film, and I'm not dismissing Jackson's talent, he's a superbly talented athlete and what he's doing is great fun to watch but it is not sustainable. All teams will do is watch some film and this will be over, it's not like Roman and Co. are inventing anything new. They are basically running the veer at this point, it's not easy to defend until you figure out the 4 or 5 keys the team is using to run it and then it's junk. This isn't the Big 8 circa 1984, you can't make this work long term in the NFL, you just can't. I've played, coached and studied this game since I could pick up a football and sure I'm not a scout or some savant but I know this game inside and out and time dictates that this offense will be figured out and absolutely strangled within due time. Remember the Wildcat? Remember RG3? Remember Kaepernick? You will also remember this, fondly, but it will be stomped to death in due time.
You may be right. In fact, you probably are because I cannot see how a team that cannot consistently require a defense to at least be somewhat concerned about being burned in the passing game can sustain itself. But I will point out that the Wildcat was just gimmicky BS and was run a couple times a game. Re RGIII, some argue that his downfall aside from injuries was his insistence tp Shannahan that they run less RPO and he become more of a classic drop back passer, but he couldn't read a defense or have the accuracy for that. We'll see but in the meantime it's interesting that a team can so radically shift its offensive philosophy mid-season and succeed
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
Players refuse to run the 40 all the time. Running the 40 could only hurt Jackson, we know he’s fast.
Teams seemed to be able to get in touch with him..
already made the points, but it is important to reinforce it so there isn't a groundswell of errant opinions acting as if this is revolutionary.
It is a team with an excellent D using the ground game to control the ball and minimize mistakes/turnovers.
It really isn't too different from the style of play the Ravens implemented under Dilfer, except it wasn't the QB running, it was Jamal Lewis.
Until Jackson can beat people with his arm, nothing has been revolutionized. You simply don't last in the NFL as a one-dimensional player, even if you have initial success.
Not that it is a perfect parallel, but if memory serves, Tim Tebow won a playoff game.
It isn't revolutionary per se, but it is relative to the way the NFL has been geared for the last 5 years or so and the way the current rules favor passing offenses.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
Players refuse to run the 40 all the time. Running the 40 could only hurt Jackson, we know he’s fast.
Teams seemed to be able to get in touch with him..
There were documented stories they did but regardless there were a few red flags. I just don’t see the Giants trading up for a guy unless they are 150% sold on him to be the next franchise guy. The last QB they’ve reportedly been enamored with was Mahomes. And they tried to trade up for him. Now we know why. I think they will do the same, but ultimately land the next guy they feel similar about.
What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
I agree with Terps on this point and have made the same point myself. But it also means Jackson isn’t some unicorn — guys like him come out every year on a sliding scale. Maybe not quite as athletic, but better passers, etc.
This is why the Giants shouldn’t force feed a QB pick. They will be able to draft a league comparable QB in round 1 every year if they want the Jackson type.
As far as the Ravens go, they’re doing what any sensible staff would do. They have an elite defense, a good OL, and trash receivers. Starting QB goes down with a mobile, athletic, QB waiting — you run the ball, play ball control, and don’t put your defense in bad spots. It’s not rocket science or innovative. This is basically how the Ravens were built and what they did pre Flacco.
As Arc pointed out, we couldn't get away with it right now due to out weak defensive roster and not that quality of OL either.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
To each their own I guess. The Ravens are winning right now and that is the most important thing. I’ve made a point to check out all the Ravens games since Jackson took over bevy I am very intrigued to see how he’d fair in the NFL. So far so good, but from a less important aesthetic side, to me, it’s just not fun to watch. I have no interest in watching a glorified wildcat offense. It bores me to tears. Something annoys the hell out of me watching the QB tuck the ball and run every play. It’s always drove me crazy watching it happen during college games and it drives me crazy at the NFL level.
Again, winning is the most important thing so I understand it if it’s successful. But I also think there should be some entertainment value attached to watching games and for me, watching QBs take off and run every play isn’t all that entertaining. I’d take it if it meant us winning games, it’s just not my idea of entertaining
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
What they have that we don't is a dominant OL. They managed to make two very average RBs into studs. If SB is behind that OL, he might average 180 yards a game.
WRONG. The ravens running game was ranked 2nd to last prior to Flaccos injury. They had 834 yards rushing after 9 games. Have rushed for 1384 since. The Oline was getting Flacco killed and awful run blocking.
What is making it work is Lamar is so damn fast and defenses have to account for him. Greg Roman is the Ravens run game coordinator. Why does that matter? He was San Fransiscos OC in 2012 when Kaep burst on the scene.
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
Jacksons still playing and competing and Giants are not. May only work for this year but what if it takes them to a Super Bowl?
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
Jacksons still playing and competing and Giants are not. May only work for this year but what if it takes them to a Super Bowl?
Jackson is riding the #1 defense in football. In his seven starts he’s averaging 160 yards passing. Good lord do people even watch games?
RE: RE: He should have the rookie of the year IMO Â
As Arc pointed out, we couldn't get away with it right now due to out weak defensive roster and not that quality of OL either.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
The few highlights and games that I've seen of him are fun to look at, but as others have pointed out, sustainability could be the question. No doubt about it, he's really injected some life into that offense though. We'll have to see what happens going forward.
As well as next year when the season begins. My guess is that he’ll be a back up or out of the league in 2 to 3 years.
He would’ve had something like 220 carriers had he played a full season. What he’s doing is nice right now but, not sustainable in today’s NFL and, anyone clamoring for him is fooling themselves.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
but from my couch, I can easily see why Belichick passed on this guy. Sure, as with RG III, quite fun to watch. And, like RG III, an injury waiting to happen. Nothing special here, imo
take the stance an injury won't happen, Jackson is very dependant on having an excellent defense behind him.
Some of the same people who bitch and moan about Eli needing to have everything go right for him to succeed are calling what Jackson is doing as revolutionary, yet he and the Ravens will only go as far as the D carries them.
When the Browns were driving for a winning FG to knock them out of the playoffs, Jackson was on the bench helpless. It hasn't been domination. He's just not made the critical mistakes yet. and for all this bluster, the ravens still made the playoffs on a final drive - where their D got a huge stop.
Jackson took them from a fringe playoff team to a fringe playoff team.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
We have the wonderlic discussion every year, and every year it's somehow necessary to point out how many all time great players, QBs included, had low wonderlic scores.
And his refusal to run the 40 probably was directly tied into the nonsense about playing him at WR. Why should a QB prospect run the 40? Who cares about 40 times especially for that position?
Also, nobody believes the Louisville system is 'easy' because it isn't. This is factually incorrect stuff. It's actually known not to be 'easy' at all. Maybe you're confusing Louisville for another college team.
I don't know what Ssanders grasp on Louisvilee's system is, but Petrino did have to simplify the offense because Jackson has a difficult time picking it up.
To ajr's point, Jackson's final year, more elements were brought back into the offense, at least from reports that Jackson had a better grasp. It was a knock on Jackson, but not a killer.
But then again - one could look at Louisville this year and see what a shitshow it has been without Jackson.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
I spent three weeks at various times during the off-season before Jackson’s last year working with Louisville on their analytics set up and their recruiting dtatabase, them along with FSU, Michigan, Texas, Auburn were my main clients.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
This has been written about to a degree. Jax came from a HS in Florida that really didn’t use a playbook. He was such a talent that his coaches really let him improvise.
When he got to Louisville he struggled learning the playbook because he never had to learn one. And Petrino’s was pretty comprehensive. So it took a while for him to adjust. Plus, Petrino had to teach him how to trust his arm instead of his instinct to run. That was a process.
Jax wanted to be coached and taught the passing game, so he was a willing student. But they needed to reach a compromise because Jax was such a devastating runner. That’s really why Petrino altered his traditional approach - to fit the talent.
Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
that even John Harbaugh doesn’t think this offense is sustainable. It’s working now, so they are riding it out. Taking it to the very limit, and willing to put LJax at risk.
that even John Harbaugh doesn’t think this offense is sustainable. It’s working now, so they are riding it out. Taking it to the very limit, and willing to put LJax at risk.
Very similar to RG3. But the 'Skins "forced" RG3 to continue playing with an injured knee that eventually gave way. I hope Baltimore would not do the same.
Cannot blame Harbaugh for riding it out. Kid is fun to watch playing college offense in the NFL. But you just cannot let your franchise QB continue to mix it up with NFL LBs.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
He wasn't great in 2014 or 2015 either.
Nothing on the Niners was great in 2014 or 2015. That's when the Harbaugh thing blew up.
Therein lies the point. From 2014 to 2016, the Niners shuffled through three head coaches, three offensive coordinators, and three different offensive schemes to go along with players fleeing the sinking ship left and right and the 32nd ranked defense mixed in for good measure
It's not a situation conducive to any success for anyone.
Are great passers but also good athletes who can pull the ball down and beat you by either running for first downs or escaping pressure. Wilson has a super bowl, multiple playoff appearances and an almost lifetime regular season70% winning percentage. Ditto Rodgers and Ben. Montana and Young were also very good scramblers. Why is it a negative to have another weapon that defenses need to respect?
were fairly well aligned in wanting Jackson in the draft.
He didn't like the antics, but still thought highly of Jackson as a prospect.
I balked because having your Mom as your agent is a really bad idea, along with the other pre-draft actions. They were big red flags.
And let's keep in mind, Jackson's story isn't written yet. At this point, he's a good running QB who helped the Ravens get to the playoffs. Let's see what the future holds.
which isnt bad at all... and he can help them win games... but he's not revolutionizing the position by any means.. we've seen a dozen of this type of QB before.
And if he continues to take hits like I saw in the Cleveland and Atlanta games, his career will be over by age 26.
As Arc pointed out, we couldn't get away with it right now due to out weak defensive roster and not that quality of OL either.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
To each their own I guess. The Ravens are winning right now and that is the most important thing. I’ve made a point to check out all the Ravens games since Jackson took over bevy I am very intrigued to see how he’d fair in the NFL. So far so good, but from a less important aesthetic side, to me, it’s just not fun to watch. I have no interest in watching a glorified wildcat offense. It bores me to tears. Something annoys the hell out of me watching the QB tuck the ball and run every play. It’s always drove me crazy watching it happen during college games and it drives me crazy at the NFL level.
Again, winning is the most important thing so I understand it if it’s successful. But I also think there should be some entertainment value attached to watching games and for me, watching QBs take off and run every play isn’t all that entertaining. I’d take it if it meant us winning games, it’s just not my idea of entertaining
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
It is contrarian which in football has a built in advantage, at least until teams can adjust. But, it must be a bitch to prepare for and with the modern NFL teams may not have the players to deal with it either.
It is fun to watch and it takes huge balls to do this in the NFL. Maybe the coach was getting canned anyway so he figure what the hell. In the pros there is a built in pressure against doing anything contrarian to the other teams because if it goes everyone will blame the coach who is doing something different and say it was his fault, that he is a crazy nut.
Personally I think it is very entertaining but I am skeptical it will start a trend around the league or that even Baltimore will look to play this style long term. That said of they win it all this year that matters less.
The risk to the QB is the problem and athletes like Jackson are rare even if they do not have great throwing ability. The only thing hits a QB would take in this type of system long term is probably unsustainable on the pro level.
I wish it wasn't Baltimore because I still hold a grudge from the 2000 ass kicking, I really would love a team playing like this to win it all. They do have a great defense and they are a physical team. Try this with the Giants and it would not work.
The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
RE: RE: RE: Ravens sound like a really fun team to watch Â
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
How about his first game as a starter? 19 passing attempts, 26 rushes.
The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
I think it is if they base their whole offense around that and continue to select players and build a roster with that philosophy in mind. It certainly is contrarian even this season which does make it difficult for teams to prepare. They are different then all if the other playoff teams.
The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
It's not revolutionary - yet. If it starts a trend and more teams incorporate rate the idea then we have to revisit the revolutionary part.
But it sure is daring in a league that encourages you to do the complete opposite. And then the sheer will and discipline to stick with it is admirable.
will build their offense around Jackson. It isn't just unsustainable, but if he gets injured, they'll have to scrap it.
The offense integrated more designed runs for the QB in it and deemphasized the throws outside the hashmarks. Let's not make it sound like Harbaugh is running a new scheme or is even planning to going forward.
But it sure is daring in a league that encourages you to do the complete opposite. And then the sheer will and discipline to stick with it is admirable.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
is the increased injury risk. Jackson didn't miss any "starts", but he did miss a substantial part of the Falcons game (15 snaps, 20%) and I think suffered a concussion towards the end of the Chiefs game.
And that's with Jackson as starter for only 7 games. He's likely to miss multiple games (see Vick) if he played this style for a full season. So if a team did want to go with this approach, they'd need to have a viable backup (or two) which means increasing the draft or cap capital spent on the position. Seeing as Jackson was a first round pick, you're likely talking about spending multiple firsts on the QB position just to have enough depth at the position. And I disagree with the notion that their are tons of players like Jackson produced by the NCAA each year. That's quite belittling to Jackson and what he's been able to do.
And none of this even considers the likely shorter career of a player like Jackson relative to traditional pocket passers or even mobile QBs like Luck/Rodgers (i.e. the argument against Barkley). Even the much bigger Newton is showing signs of wear and tear and he's not even 30.
Finally, let's see him have success over multiple seasons. Chip Kelly's offense looked revolutionary year 1 too...
I suspect that the Ravens long term plan with Lamar Â
It would be weirder if they expected him to play the same way Flacco does.
I don't think this is what they plan to do going forward. I'm positive if you asked Newsome what he was thinking, he expects that Jackson will continue to grow as a passer.
They didn't do this haphazardly. They drafted Jackson and partnered him with a QB coach/OC that knows how to work with QBs. They're expecting him to develop his game as well.
RE: Jackson was playing as Flacco's backup until Week 14. Â
But it sure is daring in a league that encourages you to do the complete opposite. And then the sheer will and discipline to stick with it is admirable.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
No I don't know if they will. If they did that would be quite different than basically all the other 31 teams. Also, I agree he will get hurt, but I guess if you went all. In on this you would draft QB'S in this mold to backup.
RE: Scheming around what you have is good coaching Â
It would be weirder if they expected him to play the same way Flacco does.
I don't think this is what they plan to do going forward. I'm positive if you asked Newsome what he was thinking, he expects that Jackson will continue to grow as a passer.
They didn't do this haphazardly. They drafted Jackson and partnered him with a QB coach/OC that knows how to work with QBs. They're expecting him to develop his game as well.
Makes sense, would be something if they won it all though.
RE: RE: I suspect that the Ravens long term plan with Lamar Â
would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
YPA says more about the offense being run than anything else. Really doesn't tell you anything about the arm of the QB, so comparing Jackson's YPA to Eli's doesn't say anything other than that they both play in offenses that utilize the short passing game.
Guys who are at the top of the league in YPA aren't always good QB's - they just generally play in more vertical offenses.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
Not for nuttin’, but iirc, didn’t the Ravens go 5 games without scoring an offensive TD?
The idea that you can just keep running this system and recycling the QB to keep from investing major cap dollars into the position has a major flaw.
If the concepts you're using don't change, it doesn't matter.
It's not necessarily the QB getting hurt that stops this from working. It's more often that DC's collect the film they need and figure out how to force the offense out of what they're trying to do.
On a much smaller scale, it was like when Alabama played the Citadel a few weeks ago. In the first half, the triple option and all of the cut blocking was something the Alabama defense hadn't seen in a while (for most of the players, ever) and playing an offense like that requires a different approach. It was giving them fits and the game was actually close at halftime much to the surprise of virtually every football fan on the planet.
Alabama adjusted during half, figured out the blocking scheme, and then the Citadel were SOL because they had no other way to attack.
That's what happens here when you run offenses like these with a limited passer. Jackson either improves and allows them to continue installing additional concepts, making it harder for defenses to catch up and defend them - or, the more likely scenario, is that he only improves marginally throwing the football, defenses catch up, and this stops working.
It won't matter who you replace Jackson with if he gets hurt. If the QB struggles throwing the football outside the hashes or struggles with particular routes, you're giving opposing DC's fewer things to key on and they'll shut it down.
The other thing - as I've already mentioned - is that this doesn't work without the defense. You can't play offense like this and trade points or play catch up. This whole thing is designed to get ahead and grind the other team down.
There are too many reasons why it's not sustainable long-term and why every time something like this pops up in the NFL, it sinks in short order.
I mostly agree. The QB position isn't fungible. And while you can find running QBs, it's very difficult to find a QB who can run a 4.3 (or better) like LJax. That's crazy fast...
I mostly agree. The QB position isn't fungible. And while you can find running QBs, it's very difficult to find a QB who can run a 4.3 (or better) like LJax. That's crazy fast...
I think it's harder to find guys with 85% of his athleticism that can also throw competently. Tebow's issue wasn't his running even though he wasn't close to a 4.3, it was that he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.
For this strategy to be successful, you need to find multiple players (2-3 at least) that: 1) are serious rushing threats which is more than just straight line speed and 2) average passers. And you need to continuously do so to avoid paying them significant money on the open market.
So while you have extra cap $$ to spend elsewhere, you're tying a lot more of your draft resources into the QB position (i.e. less picks for other positions).
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'.
"Figured him out" seems to be little more than a recklessly uttered cliche that people only apply to one case: running QBs who don't sustain early success, for whatever reason.
You don't hear about other players or teams being "figured out" when their performance declines. Was Derek Carr figured out after 2016? Chris Johnson after 2009?
Was the 2016 Giants D figured out in 2017? Has Landon Collins been figured out?
No one has argued they were, I imagine because people will look to other reasons to explain their decline. But somehow that doesn't occur with running QBs.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'.
"Figured him out" seems to be little more than a recklessly uttered cliche that people only apply to one case: running QBs who don't sustain early success, for whatever reason.
You don't hear about other players or teams being "figured out" when their performance declines. Was Derek Carr figured out after 2016? Chris Johnson after 2009?
Was the 2016 Giants D figured out in 2017? Has Landon Collins been figured out?
No one has argued they were, I imagine because people will look to other reasons to explain their decline. But somehow that doesn't occur with running QBs.
If someone achieves short term success by following "normal" patterns, then teams don't need to adjust (i.e. "figure them out").
You hear the term "figure them out" applied to all types of gimmicky offenses though (I think I used it with regards to Chip Kelly's system earlier in this thread). And it was certainly used in reference to defenses adjusting to the RPO.
And people always talk about Ds adjusting to rookie QBs and seeing if they have sustained success.
RE: RE: RE: Also, if he's such a terrible passer Â
Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
So you could say, Flacco has been figured out?
Most fans figured out Flacco sucked years ago. Most thought the Ravens were nuts for signing Flacco to that deal and he's done nothing to prove them wrong since then.
about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
True - they are running LJax in greater volume. If that's what you mean by "much differently".
My overarching point is that the Ravens have a coach in Roman who has experience is constructing an offense around a run-threat QB.
about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
True - they are running LJax in greater volume. If that's what you mean by "much differently".
My overarching point is that the Ravens have a coach in Roman who has experience is constructing an offense around a run-threat QB.
Kaep averaged 6 carries a game in the 7 starts he had when he was made the starter in 2012. He threw for under 200 yards once in 7 games - 185 yards. The 49ers never ran for 200 yards in any of those 7 games and averaged 137 yards rushing a game.
Lamar averaged 17 carries a game in his 7 starts. He threw for more than 200 yards once in 7 games - 204 yards. The Ravens ran for over 200 yards 5 of 7 games (192 and 159 in the other 2) and averaged 230 yards rushing a game.
If you think they are being used the same, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Kaep averaged 6 carries a game in the 7 starts he had when he was made the starter in 2012. He threw for under 200 yards once in 7 games - 185 yards. The 49ers never ran for 200 yards in any of those 7 games and averaged 137 yards rushing a game.
Lamar averaged 17 carries a game in his 7 starts. He threw for more than 200 yards once in 7 games - 204 yards. The Ravens ran for over 200 yards 5 of 7 games (192 and 159 in the other 2) and averaged 230 yards rushing a game.
If you think they are being used the same, I'm not sure what to tell you.
I cede the point that the Ravens are using LJax with greater frequency.
But Kaep was averaging like 500+ yards rushing per season for a three year stretch. So there were designed runs, just not in the same frequency as the Ravens are doing with LJax. Furthermore, the 9ers also had the luxury of Frank Gore as their RB. A very dependable, established resource.
Again, the point is the Ravens have a guy like Roman on their staff who once deployed QB run-options for a prior team. Thus, that experience has been a key for the Ravens scheming run options for LJax.
If you can't see the benefit of having Roman on the Ravens, I'm not sure what to tell you.
would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
Stats are rarely the tell-all, but you’re discounting LJ’s amount of throws to Eli’s?
If the topic is arm strength, which he seemed to be inferring by saying his arm is a joke, I'm not discounting amount of throws. Everyone who has actually seen Jackson play more than once knows he has more than enough arm to play at the pro level. He threw well in college and tested well at the combine. Hes got a plus arm easily. If anything, he OVERthrows.
Legitimate questions are accuracy and mechanics, and jackson himself is fine talking about what he needs to improve on and repeat with better consistency, but saying his arm is a joke is a non-point.
It's inevitable, if it continues at that pace.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
It's inevitable, if it continues at that pace.
Absolutely right.
Either case, QB is credited with a run.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
There is no way that he deserves it more than Mayfield, Barkley, or even Lindsay. Mayfield took an 0-16 team and went 7-7 as a starter.
Certainly gets the credit, but courage is a bit overboard IMO.
Harbaugh was at one point agreeing that it was his last year (so it was reported)....why not try something off the wall?
And his starter, Flacco, was hurt.
I'd have him run too, esp if throwing is his weaker trait. And I had one foot out the door.
And it worked.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
Oh yes, a RB that can throw poor passes should be ROY...
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
Jackson is a far superior athlete. Much quicker/faster/more instinctive. He's more like Mike Vick.
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
What they have that we don't is a dominant OL. They managed to make two very average RBs into studs. If SB is behind that OL, he might average 180 yards a game.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
You’re gonna be insufferable with this kid.
He's a great fit for Baltimore. But other than that I'll reserve judgement until he plays a full season. He's going to have to get better at passing to have any longevity in this league.
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
Their defense is dangerous.
Hey, Jackson can fly and he is great at running, no doubt. Just get him to 3rd and long...
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
You liked Griffin over Luck, too.
It's not sustainable. You'll see (again).
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
So you are telling me Lamar Jackson is a better runner than Saquon Barkley?
A gimmick offense built around a run first QB might work for a little while. But it is not something you can get away with long term. Not only will Jackson have to greatly improve his passing, but that many running attempts is going to quickly take a toll on his body. Barkley is built to do this for the next decade. Jackson is not.
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He took a non-playoff team and made it a playoff team.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
You’re gonna be insufferable with this kid.
maybe, but he's going to be right, too.
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that Tim Tebow didn’t/couldn’t?
Jackson is a far superior athlete. Much quicker/faster/more instinctive. He's more like Mike Vick.
Tebow though is a lot bigger. 240lbs and cut from granite. He could absorb the hits. Jackson like Vick is about 215lbs. Vick had been clocked as low as 4.25 in the 40. Jackson didn't run in the combine but predicted he would be right around 4.38. People forget how crazy athletic Vick was.
This made me laugh ...
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He took a non-playoff team and made it a playoff team.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
You’re gonna be insufferable with this kid.
He already is..
Steve Young wasn't some hulking hercules. Nor was Randall Cunningham.
It's knowing when to run. RG3 was stupidly reckless with the hits he took. And the hit that really finished his knee happened because he went flying in the air and crashed his knee into a defensive tackle.
Correct. And then he'll need to prove he's a threat with his arm.
But God is he electric with that speed. It's like watching an 4X100 relay race. And the incredible thing his he's like Gumby and never gets hurt.
Unfortunately he’ll be hurt before the league even has a chance to figure him out. Running QBs like him end up with short NFL careers just about 99% of the time.
As for RoY, no chance. Its Barkley/Mayfield and no one else.
You’re kidding, right?
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
Completing passes.
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just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
He went 4-20 in his last 24 starts, he might have gotten figured out.
I like Jackson, but for me it's more about the style of offense. I enjoy watching it in a league where passing dominates.
As for sustainability, the style definitely is. Will Jackson have a long career running it 10-15 times a game, I don't know. But for right now, they're winning games. And if it isn't sustainable for Jackson, college football produces a lot more QBs like him than it does guys like Drew Brees.
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just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
He was terrible over his final two seasons. He was benched in favor of Blaine Gabbert.
Yeah because of their incredible defense and running game.
I like Jackson, but for me it's more about the style of offense. I enjoy watching it in a league where passing dominates.
As for sustainability, the style definitely is. Will Jackson have a long career running it 10-15 times a game, I don't know. But for right now, they're winning games. And if it isn't sustainable for Jackson, college football produces a lot more QBs like him than it does guys like Drew Brees.
This reminds me of the Rex led Jets. The problem is in today's NFL you need to be able to pass. It doesn't mean that you need to do it all the time but they need these games to stay close or have the lead. If they get down early they will not be able to play catch up.
Running the ball and playing defense is always going to be a recipe for success but there needs to be that other element unless you control the games. And sometimes that isn't possible because of turnovers, special teams play, etc.
This is too similar to the wildcat for me.
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In comment 14246395 Jay on the Island said:
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just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
He was terrible over his final two seasons. He was benched in favor of Blaine Gabbert.
16 touchdowns, 4 interceptions, completion percentage in line with his previous two season and a 90 rating isn't terrible. To this day I'm not sure why people say he was terrible. The niners as team were awful. We know this because after that year they fired everyone and every thing in the building.
He was the architect of the running game for Kaepernick in San Fran.
And he's created the same model in Baltimore for LJax. Just a brilliant job by Roman & Mornhinweg.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
They would be fighting for carries?
Yeah, RPO with Jackson and Barkley would be interesting.
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If you pull that off, who cares about sustainability?
Yeah because of their incredible defense and running game.
Here's Kaepernick's line in the 2012 playoffs:
Divisional round 45-31 home win over GB
Passing: 17-31, 263, 2/1
Rushing: 16-181-2
NFCC 28-24 win in Atlanta
Passing: 16-21, 233, 1/0
Rushing: 2-21-0
Super Bowl 34-31 loss to Baltimore
Passing: 16-28, 302, 1-1
Rushing: 7-62-1
That ain't on the defense and Frank Gore.
He was the architect of the running game for Kaepernick in San Fran.
And he's created the same model in Baltimore for LJax. Just a brilliant job by Roman & Mornhinweg.
Yup. When Shurmur is fired in a year or two we should think about getting him to build the offense around Barkley.
The notion that we're on a level playing field with the Ravens in terms of personnel is not even close to true. Their offensive line is much better than ours and our defense isn't even in the same league as theirs right now.
You can't play a run-heavy, RPO-based ball control game with a leaky defense and crappy OL. It never would have worked for NYG with the current state of the roster and it would have been harder for us to craft the correct cast.
Baltimore drafted Jackson because they knew they could install a RPO-heavy package that would work with him. The personnel lines up. It would have taken more than one offseason to install that type of offense here. I was still willing to do it, but I understand why that wasn't the direction we chose to go.
Beyond that, for NYG to have drafted Jackson, they'd have had to surrender additional assets to move up, and would be without Hernandez. So, remove additional picks AND the best young player on the offensive line to get Jackson and you're setting him up to fail.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
When Kapernick led the niners to the super bowl in 2012 it was 78% pass 22% rush (almost identical to Griffin in 2012 at 77% pass and Vick in 2004 who passed 73% of the time)
The notion that we're on a level playing field with the Ravens in terms of personnel is not even close to true. Their offensive line is much better than ours and our defense isn't even in the same league as theirs right now.
You can't play a run-heavy, RPO-based ball control game with a leaky defense and crappy OL. It never would have worked for NYG with the current state of the roster and it would have been harder for us to craft the correct cast.
Baltimore drafted Jackson because they knew they could install a RPO-heavy package that would work with him. The personnel lines up. It would have taken more than one offseason to install that type of offense here. I was still willing to do it, but I understand why that wasn't the direction we chose to go.
Beyond that, for NYG to have drafted Jackson, they'd have had to surrender additional assets to move up, and would be without Hernandez. So, remove additional picks AND the best young player on the offensive line to get Jackson and you're setting him up to fail.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
100 percent on all counts
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
It's going to reach that point for sure - can LJax beat you with his arm?
Because there is no way with that body type he can take the wear and tear.
Look, I loved his skill set out of Louisville, but thought he would accelerate quicker as a thrower. Roman and Marty have simply gone the other way, tabled his passing development, and are all in on this college running game.
On Kaepernick he could absolutely take over a game under Harbaugh the year they went to the SB. Hell he almost did it in the SB. Still surprised they lost that game actually... I don't think he was figured out as much as that team going to hell pretty quickly after Harbaugh left. I just think teams won't touch him at this point because of the polarization. It's a shame really.
Obviously when he's out of the pocket, it presents another series of challenges to get a hold of him - but by limiting where he can throw the ball, it's easier to key in on stopping him from running.
They have to work with him as a thrower this offseason - I think they'll be able to extend the amount of time this is effective if he can expand his throwing repertoire a bit. If he doesn't, DC's will find a way to shut this down before long.
I hope they do well in the playoffs. I want to believe that there's still a place in the NFL for the something other than throwing the ball.
Its a new offense and once figured out, its over.
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
Lol, so now you don't care about sustainability? So if they win a title, but the next season the inuries start piling up- first minor, then major ones, which is what happens to all running QB's - and they start to lose games, and start missing playoffs for 6 out of 7 years, because they can't find a QB who is as effective; that will be OK in your book.
I'm sure guys like Jackson are a dime/dozen in college, right?
LOL...
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
Correct - they have the best defense in the AFC and that frightens BB.
Their signature win, 22-10 over LA Chargers in week 16, jncluded a defensive TD.
There isn't one sane voter that would give a guy completing 6.5 passes for 74 yards per game to WRs, and leading the team to 22 offensive points per game a ROY over guys that played at a much higher level over a full season.
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
He took 2-3 massive hits running the ball in the Cleveland game alone. He was forced from the Atlanta game for a while because of concussion concerns. He's a tough kid and the league is bending over backwards to protect mobile qbs even though in my book he's a running back once he passes the line of scrimmage.... but this isn't the ACC
It's only a matter of time.
Cam Newton: Listed at 6'5", 250 lbs. He's the size of a TE. He can handle more hits than most QBs. He's big enough to.
Russell Wilson: 5'11', 214lbs. Small but he's very smart when he runs with the football. He avoids the hits when at all possible. Scramble only to buy time and throw down field. When he does run, he tries to get out of bounds and/or stays out of harms way.
Lamar Jackson: 6'3", 212lbs. Tall and light on his feet. For comparison sake, RG3 was 6'2", 218lbs. Also similar to RG3, when he runs, he's reckless. He's always trying to get that extra yard.
Follow the link that shows his highlights from their week 17 win. Keep in mind, this is just from one game. He intentionally drives into a defender while running down the sideline when he clearly should have just stepped out of bounds (00:30). He also leans into a defender with his throwing shoulder (1:30). Here he actually drops his head to drive into another defender (3.00).
Again this was after watching just one game's highlights. This isn't even showing "mistakes" that he made during the game. He's not big enough to be so reckless when he's running with the ball. You jump out of bounds instead of taking the hit. You slide to protect your body, not lead with your head or throwing arm. Like RG3, he wants that extra yard. It's hard to fault a competitor but a QB just can't do that. Even when you are big enough to take the hits it's not smart but he's not even that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckX3qElXTbA - ( New Window )
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just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
Yeah, beyond politics, Kaepernick had evolved past the read option stuff into a regular QB. RG3 never did.
Terps I was hoping he would fall to the Giants in the 2nd round. I think if he would stop running so recklessly, he "could" be a great QB. Still has a ways to go passing the ball as well but I think he could be great. However, they are running the read option, a lot. Just like the Redskins did with RG3. He runs recklessly, just like RG3 and I pointed that out. If he continues on this path, he will end up seriously injured and if he's lucky, a career backup.
He’s a rookie, so his default instinct right now is to take the run when the opportunity presents itself.
He’ll evolve into a passer. His completion rate went up during every year at college and his surrounding pieces sucked.
Me too. I wonder what is going on behind the scenes over there.
He’s a rookie, so his default instinct right now is to take the run when the opportunity presents itself.
He’ll evolve into a passer. His completion rate went up during every year at college and his surrounding pieces sucked.
Will he evolve into a passer? This sounds all too familiar with the crowd of people telling us it was okay that Flowers sucked because he was young and he'd improve. Same with Jackson. Going into his final year people were very high on Jackson. He never developed that part of his game hence why he wasn't drafted earlier. Developing at the NFL level is rare. He is what he is. Take it or leave it but I would not bank on him becoming a better passer. Plus, stats are stats. As all Giants fans should know, stats regarding QBs are very misleading especially completion percentage. Eli always had a lower completion percentage under Gilbride because they loved attacking downfield. Under McAdoo and Shurmur, Eli has had his highest completion percentage years. Yet, it would be hard to tel me or anybody else that Eli is playing better now tham when he was younger. Playing QB isn't about stats. It is about making the appropriate reads and hitting the appropriate players among other things. Jackson has some easy windows to throw through because teams are more worried about his legs and he still misses guys. I don't know how that is all of a sudden going to change when is was completely obvious in college and now. I like him as a player but lets call him what he is and lets not assume he'll get better because progression is not always linear amd positive.
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It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
He’s a rookie, so his default instinct right now is to take the run when the opportunity presents itself.
He’ll evolve into a passer. His completion rate went up during every year at college and his surrounding pieces sucked.
Jackson is a nice story. Slow down a bit. For someone who can’t wait to dump cold water on anything Saquon Barkley related you sure bring the hyperbole with Jackson. But yea, he’s in the playoffs.....
If Jackson is on the giants he’s home.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
That's a nice theory. Has yet to materialize in the NFL.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Yards/Attempt:
Mahomes 8.8
Mayfield 7.7
Luck 7.2
Lamar 7.1
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
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Jackson is 8th among QBs in Average Completed Air Yards.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Yards/Attempt:
Mahomes 8.8
Mayfield 7.7
Luck 7.2
Lamar 7.1
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
People above are saying he has a noodle arm. You’re looking at air yards per attempt. I’m looking at only air yards on completed passes.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
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What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
That's a nice theory. Has yet to materialize in the NFL.
How has it not? Look at the number of QBs who run that have made playoff runs their rookie or first full years.
RG3
Vick
Kaepernick
Watson
Jackson
Tebow
Mariota didn’t make it until his 3rd full year but their record improved to 9-7 when his rushing attempts nearly doubled.
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
Pocket passers (or guys like Young who were pocket passers first and runners second) are a LOT easier to find than running QB’s
Over the long term, anyway.
- Baltimore's defense is great, and
- he's reckless and will be injured.
I know GoTerps thinks he's smarter than our GM, but QB's that can run like LJackson aren't THAT common, and I wouldn't want to use a high draft pick every 2-3 years on the next running QB to fill the pipeline.
Baltimore is a dangerous team though, no doubt. Their defense shut down SanDiego.
- Baltimore's defense is great, and
- he's reckless and will be injured.
I know GoTerps thinks he's smarter than our GM, but QB's that can run like LJackson aren't THAT common, and I wouldn't want to use a high draft pick every 2-3 years on the next running QB to fill the pipeline.
Baltimore is a dangerous team though, no doubt. Their defense shut down SanDiego.
Except terrible is an exaggeration, he’s not reckless and has never missed a game to injury yet
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In comment 14246599 ajr2456 said:
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Jackson is 8th among QBs in Average Completed Air Yards.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Yards/Attempt:
Mahomes 8.8
Mayfield 7.7
Luck 7.2
Lamar 7.1
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
People above are saying he has a noodle arm. You’re looking at air yards per attempt. I’m looking at only air yards on completed passes.
I don't know if I agree with joey that he has a noodle arm but he is absolutely correct that he cannot throw outside of the hash marks. His accuracy in those areas is abysmal. And I don't see it improving. He's constantly changing his arm angle and release point. That just is not a recipe for consistent accuracy.
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
There were a lot of documented issues with his Mom and he scored a 13 on the Wonderlic. 13!
It is a team with an excellent D using the ground game to control the ball and minimize mistakes/turnovers.
It really isn't too different from the style of play the Ravens implemented under Dilfer, except it wasn't the QB running, it was Jamal Lewis.
Until Jackson can beat people with his arm, nothing has been revolutionized. You simply don't last in the NFL as a one-dimensional player, even if you have initial success.
Not that it is a perfect parallel, but if memory serves, Tim Tebow won a playoff game.
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
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In comment 14246619 Ssanders9816 said:
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
There were a lot of documented issues with his Mom and he scored a 13 on the Wonderlic. 13!
The wonderlic doesn’t measure football IQ. In fact it has zero football questions on it. While it can be used to measure overall intelligence it doesn’t always correlate to football IQ.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
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In comment 14246481 Joey in VA said:
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It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
All it takes is 4 weeks of film, and I'm not dismissing Jackson's talent, he's a superbly talented athlete and what he's doing is great fun to watch but it is not sustainable. All teams will do is watch some film and this will be over, it's not like Roman and Co. are inventing anything new. They are basically running the veer at this point, it's not easy to defend until you figure out the 4 or 5 keys the team is using to run it and then it's junk. This isn't the Big 8 circa 1984, you can't make this work long term in the NFL, you just can't. I've played, coached and studied this game since I could pick up a football and sure I'm not a scout or some savant but I know this game inside and out and time dictates that this offense will be figured out and absolutely strangled within due time. Remember the Wildcat? Remember RG3? Remember Kaepernick? You will also remember this, fondly, but it will be stomped to death in due time.
You may be right. In fact, you probably are because I cannot see how a team that cannot consistently require a defense to at least be somewhat concerned about being burned in the passing game can sustain itself. But I will point out that the Wildcat was just gimmicky BS and was run a couple times a game. Re RGIII, some argue that his downfall aside from injuries was his insistence tp Shannahan that they run less RPO and he become more of a classic drop back passer, but he couldn't read a defense or have the accuracy for that. We'll see but in the meantime it's interesting that a team can so radically shift its offensive philosophy mid-season and succeed
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In comment 14246619 Ssanders9816 said:
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
Players refuse to run the 40 all the time. Running the 40 could only hurt Jackson, we know he’s fast.
Teams seemed to be able to get in touch with him..
It is a team with an excellent D using the ground game to control the ball and minimize mistakes/turnovers.
It really isn't too different from the style of play the Ravens implemented under Dilfer, except it wasn't the QB running, it was Jamal Lewis.
Until Jackson can beat people with his arm, nothing has been revolutionized. You simply don't last in the NFL as a one-dimensional player, even if you have initial success.
Not that it is a perfect parallel, but if memory serves, Tim Tebow won a playoff game.
It isn't revolutionary per se, but it is relative to the way the NFL has been geared for the last 5 years or so and the way the current rules favor passing offenses.
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In comment 14246623 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14246619 Ssanders9816 said:
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
Players refuse to run the 40 all the time. Running the 40 could only hurt Jackson, we know he’s fast.
Teams seemed to be able to get in touch with him..
There were documented stories they did but regardless there were a few red flags. I just don’t see the Giants trading up for a guy unless they are 150% sold on him to be the next franchise guy. The last QB they’ve reportedly been enamored with was Mahomes. And they tried to trade up for him. Now we know why. I think they will do the same, but ultimately land the next guy they feel similar about.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
I agree with Terps on this point and have made the same point myself. But it also means Jackson isn’t some unicorn — guys like him come out every year on a sliding scale. Maybe not quite as athletic, but better passers, etc.
This is why the Giants shouldn’t force feed a QB pick. They will be able to draft a league comparable QB in round 1 every year if they want the Jackson type.
As far as the Ravens go, they’re doing what any sensible staff would do. They have an elite defense, a good OL, and trash receivers. Starting QB goes down with a mobile, athletic, QB waiting — you run the ball, play ball control, and don’t put your defense in bad spots. It’s not rocket science or innovative. This is basically how the Ravens were built and what they did pre Flacco.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
Ryan Mallett.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
To each their own I guess. The Ravens are winning right now and that is the most important thing. I’ve made a point to check out all the Ravens games since Jackson took over bevy I am very intrigued to see how he’d fair in the NFL. So far so good, but from a less important aesthetic side, to me, it’s just not fun to watch. I have no interest in watching a glorified wildcat offense. It bores me to tears. Something annoys the hell out of me watching the QB tuck the ball and run every play. It’s always drove me crazy watching it happen during college games and it drives me crazy at the NFL level.
Again, winning is the most important thing so I understand it if it’s successful. But I also think there should be some entertainment value attached to watching games and for me, watching QBs take off and run every play isn’t all that entertaining. I’d take it if it meant us winning games, it’s just not my idea of entertaining
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And they didn't need to draft Barkley to do it.
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
What they have that we don't is a dominant OL. They managed to make two very average RBs into studs. If SB is behind that OL, he might average 180 yards a game.
What is making it work is Lamar is so damn fast and defenses have to account for him. Greg Roman is the Ravens run game coordinator. Why does that matter? He was San Fransiscos OC in 2012 when Kaep burst on the scene.
Its a new offense and once figured out, its over.
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
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Im surprised people still try to do it.
Its a new offense and once figured out, its over.
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
Jacksons still playing and competing and Giants are not. May only work for this year but what if it takes them to a Super Bowl?
Jackson is riding the #1 defense in football. In his seven starts he’s averaging 160 yards passing. Good lord do people even watch games?
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He took a non-playoff team and made it a playoff team.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
You’re gonna be insufferable with this kid.
He's already insufferable.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
The few highlights and games that I've seen of him are fun to look at, but as others have pointed out, sustainability could be the question. No doubt about it, he's really injected some life into that offense though. We'll have to see what happens going forward.
He would’ve had something like 220 carriers had he played a full season. What he’s doing is nice right now but, not sustainable in today’s NFL and, anyone clamoring for him is fooling themselves.
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Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Some of the same people who bitch and moan about Eli needing to have everything go right for him to succeed are calling what Jackson is doing as revolutionary, yet he and the Ravens will only go as far as the D carries them.
When the Browns were driving for a winning FG to knock them out of the playoffs, Jackson was on the bench helpless. It hasn't been domination. He's just not made the critical mistakes yet. and for all this bluster, the ravens still made the playoffs on a final drive - where their D got a huge stop.
Jackson took them from a fringe playoff team to a fringe playoff team.
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the point:
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Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
We have the wonderlic discussion every year, and every year it's somehow necessary to point out how many all time great players, QBs included, had low wonderlic scores.
And his refusal to run the 40 probably was directly tied into the nonsense about playing him at WR. Why should a QB prospect run the 40? Who cares about 40 times especially for that position?
Also, nobody believes the Louisville system is 'easy' because it isn't. This is factually incorrect stuff. It's actually known not to be 'easy' at all. Maybe you're confusing Louisville for another college team.
I don't know what Ssanders grasp on Louisvilee's system is, but Petrino did have to simplify the offense because Jackson has a difficult time picking it up.
To ajr's point, Jackson's final year, more elements were brought back into the offense, at least from reports that Jackson had a better grasp. It was a knock on Jackson, but not a killer.
But then again - one could look at Louisville this year and see what a shitshow it has been without Jackson.
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In comment 14246681 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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the point:
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Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
I spent three weeks at various times during the off-season before Jackson’s last year working with Louisville on their analytics set up and their recruiting dtatabase, them along with FSU, Michigan, Texas, Auburn were my main clients.
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In comment 14246681 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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the point:
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Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
This has been written about to a degree. Jax came from a HS in Florida that really didn’t use a playbook. He was such a talent that his coaches really let him improvise.
When he got to Louisville he struggled learning the playbook because he never had to learn one. And Petrino’s was pretty comprehensive. So it took a while for him to adjust. Plus, Petrino had to teach him how to trust his arm instead of his instinct to run. That was a process.
Jax wanted to be coached and taught the passing game, so he was a willing student. But they needed to reach a compromise because Jax was such a devastating runner. That’s really why Petrino altered his traditional approach - to fit the talent.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
I don't think really anyone is arguing that. Running qbs are successful quite a bit, the argument is longevity
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
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I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
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take:
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I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
He wasn't great in 2014 or 2015 either.
Very similar to RG3. But the 'Skins "forced" RG3 to continue playing with an injured knee that eventually gave way. I hope Baltimore would not do the same.
Cannot blame Harbaugh for riding it out. Kid is fun to watch playing college offense in the NFL. But you just cannot let your franchise QB continue to mix it up with NFL LBs.
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In comment 14246938 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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take:
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I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
He wasn't great in 2014 or 2015 either.
Nothing on the Niners was great in 2014 or 2015. That's when the Harbaugh thing blew up.
Therein lies the point. From 2014 to 2016, the Niners shuffled through three head coaches, three offensive coordinators, and three different offensive schemes to go along with players fleeing the sinking ship left and right and the 32nd ranked defense mixed in for good measure
It's not a situation conducive to any success for anyone.
but thanks for regaling us on the QB's of yore.
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In comment 14246326 Go Terps said:
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He took a non-playoff team and made it a playoff team.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
You’re gonna be insufferable with this kid.
He's already insufferable.
Terps didn’t want him during his draft antics. But now he does. Hypocrite
He didn't like the antics, but still thought highly of Jackson as a prospect.
I balked because having your Mom as your agent is a really bad idea, along with the other pre-draft actions. They were big red flags.
And let's keep in mind, Jackson's story isn't written yet. At this point, he's a good running QB who helped the Ravens get to the playoffs. Let's see what the future holds.
but thanks for regaling us on the QB's of yore.
There have been a couple threads started in the past week about Jackson's impact.
When a thread is started about Jackson being pedestrian or sucking as a passer, I'm sure there will be a counter-point to that too.
People aren't discrediting Jackson as much as they are tempering the idea he is doing things we haven't seen before - think the Cam Newton principle
And if he continues to take hits like I saw in the Cleveland and Atlanta games, his career will be over by age 26.
Can't be. "Escapes" count as run attempts as well.
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As Arc pointed out, we couldn't get away with it right now due to out weak defensive roster and not that quality of OL either.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
To each their own I guess. The Ravens are winning right now and that is the most important thing. I’ve made a point to check out all the Ravens games since Jackson took over bevy I am very intrigued to see how he’d fair in the NFL. So far so good, but from a less important aesthetic side, to me, it’s just not fun to watch. I have no interest in watching a glorified wildcat offense. It bores me to tears. Something annoys the hell out of me watching the QB tuck the ball and run every play. It’s always drove me crazy watching it happen during college games and it drives me crazy at the NFL level.
Again, winning is the most important thing so I understand it if it’s successful. But I also think there should be some entertainment value attached to watching games and for me, watching QBs take off and run every play isn’t all that entertaining. I’d take it if it meant us winning games, it’s just not my idea of entertaining
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
It is contrarian which in football has a built in advantage, at least until teams can adjust. But, it must be a bitch to prepare for and with the modern NFL teams may not have the players to deal with it either.
It is fun to watch and it takes huge balls to do this in the NFL. Maybe the coach was getting canned anyway so he figure what the hell. In the pros there is a built in pressure against doing anything contrarian to the other teams because if it goes everyone will blame the coach who is doing something different and say it was his fault, that he is a crazy nut.
Personally I think it is very entertaining but I am skeptical it will start a trend around the league or that even Baltimore will look to play this style long term. That said of they win it all this year that matters less.
The risk to the QB is the problem and athletes like Jackson are rare even if they do not have great throwing ability. The only thing hits a QB would take in this type of system long term is probably unsustainable on the pro level.
I wish it wasn't Baltimore because I still hold a grudge from the 2000 ass kicking, I really would love a team playing like this to win it all. They do have a great defense and they are a physical team. Try this with the Giants and it would not work.
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
How about his first game as a starter? 19 passing attempts, 26 rushes.
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The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
I think it is if they base their whole offense around that and continue to select players and build a roster with that philosophy in mind. It certainly is contrarian even this season which does make it difficult for teams to prepare. They are different then all if the other playoff teams.
If I recall Wildcat was just brought in sometimes and not a total offense.
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The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
It's not revolutionary - yet. If it starts a trend and more teams incorporate rate the idea then we have to revisit the revolutionary part.
But it sure is daring in a league that encourages you to do the complete opposite. And then the sheer will and discipline to stick with it is admirable.
The offense integrated more designed runs for the QB in it and deemphasized the throws outside the hashmarks. Let's not make it sound like Harbaugh is running a new scheme or is even planning to going forward.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
And that's with Jackson as starter for only 7 games. He's likely to miss multiple games (see Vick) if he played this style for a full season. So if a team did want to go with this approach, they'd need to have a viable backup (or two) which means increasing the draft or cap capital spent on the position. Seeing as Jackson was a first round pick, you're likely talking about spending multiple firsts on the QB position just to have enough depth at the position. And I disagree with the notion that their are tons of players like Jackson produced by the NCAA each year. That's quite belittling to Jackson and what he's been able to do.
And none of this even considers the likely shorter career of a player like Jackson relative to traditional pocket passers or even mobile QBs like Luck/Rodgers (i.e. the argument against Barkley). Even the much bigger Newton is showing signs of wear and tear and he's not even 30.
Finally, let's see him have success over multiple seasons. Chip Kelly's offense looked revolutionary year 1 too...
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
I don't think this is what they plan to do going forward. I'm positive if you asked Newsome what he was thinking, he expects that Jackson will continue to grow as a passer.
They didn't do this haphazardly. They drafted Jackson and partnered him with a QB coach/OC that knows how to work with QBs. They're expecting him to develop his game as well.
Figured you were splitting hairs. Jackson started the Bengals game. Whether he was "officially" the starter or not seems irrelevant.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
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But it sure is daring in a league that encourages you to do the complete opposite. And then the sheer will and discipline to stick with it is admirable.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
No I don't know if they will. If they did that would be quite different than basically all the other 31 teams. Also, I agree he will get hurt, but I guess if you went all. In on this you would draft QB'S in this mold to backup.
I don't think this is what they plan to do going forward. I'm positive if you asked Newsome what he was thinking, he expects that Jackson will continue to grow as a passer.
They didn't do this haphazardly. They drafted Jackson and partnered him with a QB coach/OC that knows how to work with QBs. They're expecting him to develop his game as well.
Makes sense, would be something if they won it all though.
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would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
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In comment 14247181 YAJ2112 said:
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would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
Stats are rarely the tell-all, but you’re discounting LJ’s amount of throws to Eli’s?
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In comment 14247181 YAJ2112 said:
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would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
YPA says more about the offense being run than anything else. Really doesn't tell you anything about the arm of the QB, so comparing Jackson's YPA to Eli's doesn't say anything other than that they both play in offenses that utilize the short passing game.
Guys who are at the top of the league in YPA aren't always good QB's - they just generally play in more vertical offenses.
You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
QB's who have YPA's under 7:
- Darnold
- Stafford
- Allen
- Flacco
- Rosen
I don't think a single one of them is considered to have a below-average arm
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You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
Not for nuttin’, but iirc, didn’t the Ravens go 5 games without scoring an offensive TD?
The idea that you can just keep running this system and recycling the QB to keep from investing major cap dollars into the position has a major flaw.
If the concepts you're using don't change, it doesn't matter.
It's not necessarily the QB getting hurt that stops this from working. It's more often that DC's collect the film they need and figure out how to force the offense out of what they're trying to do.
On a much smaller scale, it was like when Alabama played the Citadel a few weeks ago. In the first half, the triple option and all of the cut blocking was something the Alabama defense hadn't seen in a while (for most of the players, ever) and playing an offense like that requires a different approach. It was giving them fits and the game was actually close at halftime much to the surprise of virtually every football fan on the planet.
Alabama adjusted during half, figured out the blocking scheme, and then the Citadel were SOL because they had no other way to attack.
That's what happens here when you run offenses like these with a limited passer. Jackson either improves and allows them to continue installing additional concepts, making it harder for defenses to catch up and defend them - or, the more likely scenario, is that he only improves marginally throwing the football, defenses catch up, and this stops working.
It won't matter who you replace Jackson with if he gets hurt. If the QB struggles throwing the football outside the hashes or struggles with particular routes, you're giving opposing DC's fewer things to key on and they'll shut it down.
The other thing - as I've already mentioned - is that this doesn't work without the defense. You can't play offense like this and trade points or play catch up. This whole thing is designed to get ahead and grind the other team down.
There are too many reasons why it's not sustainable long-term and why every time something like this pops up in the NFL, it sinks in short order.
I think it's harder to find guys with 85% of his athleticism that can also throw competently. Tebow's issue wasn't his running even though he wasn't close to a 4.3, it was that he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.
For this strategy to be successful, you need to find multiple players (2-3 at least) that: 1) are serious rushing threats which is more than just straight line speed and 2) average passers. And you need to continuously do so to avoid paying them significant money on the open market.
So while you have extra cap $$ to spend elsewhere, you're tying a lot more of your draft resources into the QB position (i.e. less picks for other positions).
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'.
"Figured him out" seems to be little more than a recklessly uttered cliche that people only apply to one case: running QBs who don't sustain early success, for whatever reason.
You don't hear about other players or teams being "figured out" when their performance declines. Was Derek Carr figured out after 2016? Chris Johnson after 2009?
Was the 2016 Giants D figured out in 2017? Has Landon Collins been figured out?
No one has argued they were, I imagine because people will look to other reasons to explain their decline. But somehow that doesn't occur with running QBs.
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You guys are making it sound like we are seeing a brand new offense. Harbaugh has made it a ball control offense that relies on the D - Not too much different from the model they used when Dilfer was there.
The discipline will no longer be in play if they fall behind or if the D isn't an upper eschelon unit.
Heck, rocco is acting as if the offense is going to be permanently integrated, especially in teh comment that the Wildcat was a fad. This has been a way to keep the offense manageable in-season when Jackson was pressed into action.
Neither the scheme nor the long-term plan is anything revolutionary
It's not quite the same as the Billick/Dilfer team. They featured Lewis as their primary runner. A very traditional approach. That team was content kicking FGs and having no turnovers.
Here, Morni/Roman are co-featuring LJax as THE running option. And he's a threat to throw with Roman implementing the 9ers/Kaepernick scheme. This is a running game designed to produce shock plays.
about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
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Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
So you could say, Flacco has been figured out?
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I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'.
"Figured him out" seems to be little more than a recklessly uttered cliche that people only apply to one case: running QBs who don't sustain early success, for whatever reason.
You don't hear about other players or teams being "figured out" when their performance declines. Was Derek Carr figured out after 2016? Chris Johnson after 2009?
Was the 2016 Giants D figured out in 2017? Has Landon Collins been figured out?
No one has argued they were, I imagine because people will look to other reasons to explain their decline. But somehow that doesn't occur with running QBs.
If someone achieves short term success by following "normal" patterns, then teams don't need to adjust (i.e. "figure them out").
You hear the term "figure them out" applied to all types of gimmicky offenses though (I think I used it with regards to Chip Kelly's system earlier in this thread). And it was certainly used in reference to defenses adjusting to the RPO.
And people always talk about Ds adjusting to rookie QBs and seeing if they have sustained success.
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In comment 14246928 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
So you could say, Flacco has been figured out?
Most fans figured out Flacco sucked years ago. Most thought the Ravens were nuts for signing Flacco to that deal and he's done nothing to prove them wrong since then.
about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
True - they are running LJax in greater volume. If that's what you mean by "much differently".
My overarching point is that the Ravens have a coach in Roman who has experience is constructing an offense around a run-threat QB.
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about the Roman/Kaepernick scheme. Kaep had 8 career games (including playoffs) with 10 or more carries, and only 1 with more than 12 - the playoff win vs GB. He also only exceeded 60 yards rushing 14 times in 75 starts. Kaep was always much more of a passer who also ran fast than someone that the team tried to scheme lots of runs for.
By comparison, Lamar has carried for 10+ in each of his 7 starts and only once was under 13 carries or 67 yards. The Ravens and Roman are using Lamar much differently than Kaep was used.
True - they are running LJax in greater volume. If that's what you mean by "much differently".
My overarching point is that the Ravens have a coach in Roman who has experience is constructing an offense around a run-threat QB.
Kaep averaged 6 carries a game in the 7 starts he had when he was made the starter in 2012. He threw for under 200 yards once in 7 games - 185 yards. The 49ers never ran for 200 yards in any of those 7 games and averaged 137 yards rushing a game.
Lamar averaged 17 carries a game in his 7 starts. He threw for more than 200 yards once in 7 games - 204 yards. The Ravens ran for over 200 yards 5 of 7 games (192 and 159 in the other 2) and averaged 230 yards rushing a game.
If you think they are being used the same, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Kaep averaged 6 carries a game in the 7 starts he had when he was made the starter in 2012. He threw for under 200 yards once in 7 games - 185 yards. The 49ers never ran for 200 yards in any of those 7 games and averaged 137 yards rushing a game.
Lamar averaged 17 carries a game in his 7 starts. He threw for more than 200 yards once in 7 games - 204 yards. The Ravens ran for over 200 yards 5 of 7 games (192 and 159 in the other 2) and averaged 230 yards rushing a game.
If you think they are being used the same, I'm not sure what to tell you.
I cede the point that the Ravens are using LJax with greater frequency.
But Kaep was averaging like 500+ yards rushing per season for a three year stretch. So there were designed runs, just not in the same frequency as the Ravens are doing with LJax. Furthermore, the 9ers also had the luxury of Frank Gore as their RB. A very dependable, established resource.
Again, the point is the Ravens have a guy like Roman on their staff who once deployed QB run-options for a prior team. Thus, that experience has been a key for the Ravens scheming run options for LJax.
If you can't see the benefit of having Roman on the Ravens, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Even here, at the other end of that spectrum, we saw the reemergence of the QB sneak.
Hostetler, Rogers reminded me of Hoss early on. Not the gifted juke-er, but, when he did run, it was an instant decision.
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In comment 14247184 mittenedman said:
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In comment 14247181 YAJ2112 said:
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would be to make him much more of a passer. They are just rolling with what is working/what he can handle right now.
I don't think they are attempting to revolutionize anything long term.
And that's where the problem lies. He's not even a 3rd string NFL passer. His arm is a joke.
His yards per attempt is 7.46 to Eli's 7.5.
Stats are rarely the tell-all, but you’re discounting LJ’s amount of throws to Eli’s?
If the topic is arm strength, which he seemed to be inferring by saying his arm is a joke, I'm not discounting amount of throws. Everyone who has actually seen Jackson play more than once knows he has more than enough arm to play at the pro level. He threw well in college and tested well at the combine. Hes got a plus arm easily. If anything, he OVERthrows.
Legitimate questions are accuracy and mechanics, and jackson himself is fine talking about what he needs to improve on and repeat with better consistency, but saying his arm is a joke is a non-point.
Cool stuff