I was just as much a proponent of Jackson as Terps was - but the difference is that what Baltimore is doing with him doesn't work here. He's a great fit for that football team because the personnel matches up with the type of game you have to play if you're using him.
The notion that we're on a level playing field with the Ravens in terms of personnel is not even close to true. Their offensive line is much better than ours and our defense isn't even in the same league as theirs right now.
You can't play a run-heavy, RPO-based ball control game with a leaky defense and crappy OL. It never would have worked for NYG with the current state of the roster and it would have been harder for us to craft the correct cast.
Baltimore drafted Jackson because they knew they could install a RPO-heavy package that would work with him. The personnel lines up. It would have taken more than one offseason to install that type of offense here. I was still willing to do it, but I understand why that wasn't the direction we chose to go.
Beyond that, for NYG to have drafted Jackson, they'd have had to surrender additional assets to move up, and would be without Hernandez. So, remove additional picks AND the best young player on the offensive line to get Jackson and you're setting him up to fail.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
Are almost equal (pass 53% rush 47%). His position should be QB/RB
When Kapernick led the niners to the super bowl in 2012 it was 78% pass 22% rush (almost identical to Griffin in 2012 at 77% pass and Vick in 2004 who passed 73% of the time)
I was just as much a proponent of Jackson as Terps was - but the difference is that what Baltimore is doing with him doesn't work here. He's a great fit for that football team because the personnel matches up with the type of game you have to play if you're using him.
The notion that we're on a level playing field with the Ravens in terms of personnel is not even close to true. Their offensive line is much better than ours and our defense isn't even in the same league as theirs right now.
You can't play a run-heavy, RPO-based ball control game with a leaky defense and crappy OL. It never would have worked for NYG with the current state of the roster and it would have been harder for us to craft the correct cast.
Baltimore drafted Jackson because they knew they could install a RPO-heavy package that would work with him. The personnel lines up. It would have taken more than one offseason to install that type of offense here. I was still willing to do it, but I understand why that wasn't the direction we chose to go.
Beyond that, for NYG to have drafted Jackson, they'd have had to surrender additional assets to move up, and would be without Hernandez. So, remove additional picks AND the best young player on the offensive line to get Jackson and you're setting him up to fail.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
It's going to reach that point for sure - can LJax beat you with his arm?
Because there is no way with that body type he can take the wear and tear.
Look, I loved his skill set out of Louisville, but thought he would accelerate quicker as a thrower. Roman and Marty have simply gone the other way, tabled his passing development, and are all in on this college running game.
On Kaepernick he could absolutely take over a game under Harbaugh the year they went to the SB. Hell he almost did it in the SB. Still surprised they lost that game actually... I don't think he was figured out as much as that team going to hell pretty quickly after Harbaugh left. I just think teams won't touch him at this point because of the polarization. It's a shame really.
To stop him, teams are going to have to keep a lot of traffic in the middle of the field and try to funnel everything outside. He struggles when he's pushing the ball outside the hash marks. Baltimore isn't even really asking him to make those throws because they know he can't do it with any consistency. So, if you keep a lot of traffic in front of him, odds are he'll be more reluctant to throw it and you'll force him outside of the pocket.
Obviously when he's out of the pocket, it presents another series of challenges to get a hold of him - but by limiting where he can throw the ball, it's easier to key in on stopping him from running.
They have to work with him as a thrower this offseason - I think they'll be able to extend the amount of time this is effective if he can expand his throwing repertoire a bit. If he doesn't, DC's will find a way to shut this down before long.
They're doing something right in the pass game with him Â
He's still throwing the ball 23 times a game, which is not nothing. And he's averaging 7.1 yards/attempt. That's still low in today's pass happy NFL, but it's not terrible. He's thrown 3 picks, but they all came in his first 2 games. He hasn't thrown a pick in his last 5 games.
I hope they do well in the playoffs. I want to believe that there's still a place in the NFL for the something other than throwing the ball.
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
RE: Speaking of Kaepernick, he was damn close to winning a Super Bowl Â
If you pull that off, who cares about sustainability?
Lol, so now you don't care about sustainability? So if they win a title, but the next season the inuries start piling up- first minor, then major ones, which is what happens to all running QB's - and they start to lose games, and start missing playoffs for 6 out of 7 years, because they can't find a QB who is as effective; that will be OK in your book.
I'm sure guys like Jackson are a dime/dozen in college, right?
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
Correct - they have the best defense in the AFC and that frightens BB.
Their signature win, 22-10 over LA Chargers in week 16, jncluded a defensive TD.
There isn't one sane voter that would give a guy completing 6.5 passes for 74 yards per game to WRs, and leading the team to 22 offensive points per game a ROY over guys that played at a much higher level over a full season.
What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
He took 2-3 massive hits running the ball in the Cleveland game alone. He was forced from the Atlanta game for a while because of concussion concerns. He's a tough kid and the league is bending over backwards to protect mobile qbs even though in my book he's a running back once he passes the line of scrimmage.... but this isn't the ACC
I will discount how they are as a passers and just point out their chances to avoid injury.
Cam Newton: Listed at 6'5", 250 lbs. He's the size of a TE. He can handle more hits than most QBs. He's big enough to.
Russell Wilson: 5'11', 214lbs. Small but he's very smart when he runs with the football. He avoids the hits when at all possible. Scramble only to buy time and throw down field. When he does run, he tries to get out of bounds and/or stays out of harms way.
Lamar Jackson: 6'3", 212lbs. Tall and light on his feet. For comparison sake, RG3 was 6'2", 218lbs. Also similar to RG3, when he runs, he's reckless. He's always trying to get that extra yard.
Follow the link that shows his highlights from their week 17 win. Keep in mind, this is just from one game. He intentionally drives into a defender while running down the sideline when he clearly should have just stepped out of bounds (00:30). He also leans into a defender with his throwing shoulder (1:30). Here he actually drops his head to drive into another defender (3.00).
Again this was after watching just one game's highlights. This isn't even showing "mistakes" that he made during the game. He's not big enough to be so reckless when he's running with the ball. You jump out of bounds instead of taking the hit. You slide to protect your body, not lead with your head or throwing arm. Like RG3, he wants that extra yard. It's hard to fault a competitor but a QB just can't do that. Even when you are big enough to take the hits it's not smart but he's not even that.
just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
Yeah, beyond politics, Kaepernick had evolved past the read option stuff into a regular QB. RG3 never did.
I don't know...those highlights look pretty good to me.
Terps I was hoping he would fall to the Giants in the 2nd round. I think if he would stop running so recklessly, he "could" be a great QB. Still has a ways to go passing the ball as well but I think he could be great. However, they are running the read option, a lot. Just like the Redskins did with RG3. He runs recklessly, just like RG3 and I pointed that out. If he continues on this path, he will end up seriously injured and if he's lucky, a career backup.
He’s a rookie, so his default instinct right now is to take the run when the opportunity presents itself.
He’ll evolve into a passer. His completion rate went up during every year at college and his surrounding pieces sucked.
Will he evolve into a passer? This sounds all too familiar with the crowd of people telling us it was okay that Flowers sucked because he was young and he'd improve. Same with Jackson. Going into his final year people were very high on Jackson. He never developed that part of his game hence why he wasn't drafted earlier. Developing at the NFL level is rare. He is what he is. Take it or leave it but I would not bank on him becoming a better passer. Plus, stats are stats. As all Giants fans should know, stats regarding QBs are very misleading especially completion percentage. Eli always had a lower completion percentage under Gilbride because they loved attacking downfield. Under McAdoo and Shurmur, Eli has had his highest completion percentage years. Yet, it would be hard to tel me or anybody else that Eli is playing better now tham when he was younger. Playing QB isn't about stats. It is about making the appropriate reads and hitting the appropriate players among other things. Jackson has some easy windows to throw through because teams are more worried about his legs and he still misses guys. I don't know how that is all of a sudden going to change when is was completely obvious in college and now. I like him as a player but lets call him what he is and lets not assume he'll get better because progression is not always linear amd positive.
It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
All it takes is 4 weeks of film, and I'm not dismissing Jackson's talent, he's a superbly talented athlete and what he's doing is great fun to watch but it is not sustainable. All teams will do is watch some film and this will be over, it's not like Roman and Co. are inventing anything new. They are basically running the veer at this point, it's not easy to defend until you figure out the 4 or 5 keys the team is using to run it and then it's junk. This isn't the Big 8 circa 1984, you can't make this work long term in the NFL, you just can't. I've played, coached and studied this game since I could pick up a football and sure I'm not a scout or some savant but I know this game inside and out and time dictates that this offense will be figured out and absolutely strangled within due time. Remember the Wildcat? Remember RG3? Remember Kaepernick? You will also remember this, fondly, but it will be stomped to death in due time.
He’s a rookie, so his default instinct right now is to take the run when the opportunity presents itself.
He’ll evolve into a passer. His completion rate went up during every year at college and his surrounding pieces sucked.
No he's not, he can't throw outside the hashmarks, so your CBs, Ss and LBs can start to sit inside and shrink the field. He has no arm to push it past 28 yards horizontally and it will get him murdered eventually. He's got nothing on the ball, and that won't get better. He may be a darling for a while, but this is a league that requires a QB to throw more than just inside the hash marks. He's going to fail spectacularly because he can't throw the ball.
THe ravens OL, defense and stable coaching staff had nothing to do with the 10 wins.
Jackson is a nice story. Slow down a bit. For someone who can’t wait to dump cold water on anything Saquon Barkley related you sure bring the hyperbole with Jackson. But yea, he’s in the playoffs.....
What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
That's a nice theory. Has yet to materialize in the NFL.
Jackson is 8th among QBs in Average Completed Air Yards.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
Jackson is 8th among QBs in Average Completed Air Yards.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
People above are saying he has a noodle arm. You’re looking at air yards per attempt. I’m looking at only air yards on completed passes.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
That's a nice theory. Has yet to materialize in the NFL.
How has it not? Look at the number of QBs who run that have made playoff runs their rookie or first full years.
RG3
Vick
Kaepernick
Watson
Jackson
Tebow
Mariota didn’t make it until his 3rd full year but their record improved to 9-7 when his rushing attempts nearly doubled.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
Pocket passers (or guys like Young who were pocket passers first and runners second) are a LOT easier to find than running QB’s
- he's a terrible passer,
- Baltimore's defense is great, and
- he's reckless and will be injured.
I know GoTerps thinks he's smarter than our GM, but QB's that can run like LJackson aren't THAT common, and I wouldn't want to use a high draft pick every 2-3 years on the next running QB to fill the pipeline.
Baltimore is a dangerous team though, no doubt. Their defense shut down SanDiego.
- he's a terrible passer,
- Baltimore's defense is great, and
- he's reckless and will be injured.
I know GoTerps thinks he's smarter than our GM, but QB's that can run like LJackson aren't THAT common, and I wouldn't want to use a high draft pick every 2-3 years on the next running QB to fill the pipeline.
Baltimore is a dangerous team though, no doubt. Their defense shut down SanDiego.
Except terrible is an exaggeration, he’s not reckless and has never missed a game to injury yet
Jackson is 8th among QBs in Average Completed Air Yards.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
People above are saying he has a noodle arm. You’re looking at air yards per attempt. I’m looking at only air yards on completed passes.
I don't know if I agree with joey that he has a noodle arm but he is absolutely correct that he cannot throw outside of the hash marks. His accuracy in those areas is abysmal. And I don't see it improving. He's constantly changing his arm angle and release point. That just is not a recipe for consistent accuracy.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
There were a lot of documented issues with his Mom and he scored a 13 on the Wonderlic. 13!
already made the points, but it is important to reinforce it so there isn't a groundswell of errant opinions acting as if this is revolutionary.
It is a team with an excellent D using the ground game to control the ball and minimize mistakes/turnovers.
It really isn't too different from the style of play the Ravens implemented under Dilfer, except it wasn't the QB running, it was Jamal Lewis.
Until Jackson can beat people with his arm, nothing has been revolutionized. You simply don't last in the NFL as a one-dimensional player, even if you have initial success.
Not that it is a perfect parallel, but if memory serves, Tim Tebow won a playoff game.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
There were a lot of documented issues with his Mom and he scored a 13 on the Wonderlic. 13!
The wonderlic doesn’t measure football IQ. In fact it has zero football questions on it. While it can be used to measure overall intelligence it doesn’t always correlate to football IQ.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
All it takes is 4 weeks of film, and I'm not dismissing Jackson's talent, he's a superbly talented athlete and what he's doing is great fun to watch but it is not sustainable. All teams will do is watch some film and this will be over, it's not like Roman and Co. are inventing anything new. They are basically running the veer at this point, it's not easy to defend until you figure out the 4 or 5 keys the team is using to run it and then it's junk. This isn't the Big 8 circa 1984, you can't make this work long term in the NFL, you just can't. I've played, coached and studied this game since I could pick up a football and sure I'm not a scout or some savant but I know this game inside and out and time dictates that this offense will be figured out and absolutely strangled within due time. Remember the Wildcat? Remember RG3? Remember Kaepernick? You will also remember this, fondly, but it will be stomped to death in due time.
You may be right. In fact, you probably are because I cannot see how a team that cannot consistently require a defense to at least be somewhat concerned about being burned in the passing game can sustain itself. But I will point out that the Wildcat was just gimmicky BS and was run a couple times a game. Re RGIII, some argue that his downfall aside from injuries was his insistence tp Shannahan that they run less RPO and he become more of a classic drop back passer, but he couldn't read a defense or have the accuracy for that. We'll see but in the meantime it's interesting that a team can so radically shift its offensive philosophy mid-season and succeed
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
Players refuse to run the 40 all the time. Running the 40 could only hurt Jackson, we know he’s fast.
Teams seemed to be able to get in touch with him..
Quote:
If you pull that off, who cares about sustainability?
Yeah because of their incredible defense and running game.
Here's Kaepernick's line in the 2012 playoffs:
Divisional round 45-31 home win over GB
Passing: 17-31, 263, 2/1
Rushing: 16-181-2
NFCC 28-24 win in Atlanta
Passing: 16-21, 233, 1/0
Rushing: 2-21-0
Super Bowl 34-31 loss to Baltimore
Passing: 16-28, 302, 1-1
Rushing: 7-62-1
That ain't on the defense and Frank Gore.
He was the architect of the running game for Kaepernick in San Fran.
And he's created the same model in Baltimore for LJax. Just a brilliant job by Roman & Mornhinweg.
Yup. When Shurmur is fired in a year or two we should think about getting him to build the offense around Barkley.
The notion that we're on a level playing field with the Ravens in terms of personnel is not even close to true. Their offensive line is much better than ours and our defense isn't even in the same league as theirs right now.
You can't play a run-heavy, RPO-based ball control game with a leaky defense and crappy OL. It never would have worked for NYG with the current state of the roster and it would have been harder for us to craft the correct cast.
Baltimore drafted Jackson because they knew they could install a RPO-heavy package that would work with him. The personnel lines up. It would have taken more than one offseason to install that type of offense here. I was still willing to do it, but I understand why that wasn't the direction we chose to go.
Beyond that, for NYG to have drafted Jackson, they'd have had to surrender additional assets to move up, and would be without Hernandez. So, remove additional picks AND the best young player on the offensive line to get Jackson and you're setting him up to fail.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
When Kapernick led the niners to the super bowl in 2012 it was 78% pass 22% rush (almost identical to Griffin in 2012 at 77% pass and Vick in 2004 who passed 73% of the time)
The notion that we're on a level playing field with the Ravens in terms of personnel is not even close to true. Their offensive line is much better than ours and our defense isn't even in the same league as theirs right now.
You can't play a run-heavy, RPO-based ball control game with a leaky defense and crappy OL. It never would have worked for NYG with the current state of the roster and it would have been harder for us to craft the correct cast.
Baltimore drafted Jackson because they knew they could install a RPO-heavy package that would work with him. The personnel lines up. It would have taken more than one offseason to install that type of offense here. I was still willing to do it, but I understand why that wasn't the direction we chose to go.
Beyond that, for NYG to have drafted Jackson, they'd have had to surrender additional assets to move up, and would be without Hernandez. So, remove additional picks AND the best young player on the offensive line to get Jackson and you're setting him up to fail.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
100 percent on all counts
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
It's going to reach that point for sure - can LJax beat you with his arm?
Because there is no way with that body type he can take the wear and tear.
Look, I loved his skill set out of Louisville, but thought he would accelerate quicker as a thrower. Roman and Marty have simply gone the other way, tabled his passing development, and are all in on this college running game.
On Kaepernick he could absolutely take over a game under Harbaugh the year they went to the SB. Hell he almost did it in the SB. Still surprised they lost that game actually... I don't think he was figured out as much as that team going to hell pretty quickly after Harbaugh left. I just think teams won't touch him at this point because of the polarization. It's a shame really.
Obviously when he's out of the pocket, it presents another series of challenges to get a hold of him - but by limiting where he can throw the ball, it's easier to key in on stopping him from running.
They have to work with him as a thrower this offseason - I think they'll be able to extend the amount of time this is effective if he can expand his throwing repertoire a bit. If he doesn't, DC's will find a way to shut this down before long.
I hope they do well in the playoffs. I want to believe that there's still a place in the NFL for the something other than throwing the ball.
Its a new offense and once figured out, its over.
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
Lol, so now you don't care about sustainability? So if they win a title, but the next season the inuries start piling up- first minor, then major ones, which is what happens to all running QB's - and they start to lose games, and start missing playoffs for 6 out of 7 years, because they can't find a QB who is as effective; that will be OK in your book.
I'm sure guys like Jackson are a dime/dozen in college, right?
LOL...
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
Correct - they have the best defense in the AFC and that frightens BB.
Their signature win, 22-10 over LA Chargers in week 16, jncluded a defensive TD.
There isn't one sane voter that would give a guy completing 6.5 passes for 74 yards per game to WRs, and leading the team to 22 offensive points per game a ROY over guys that played at a much higher level over a full season.
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
Lastly, I have my concerns about this being sustainable. It's only a matter of time until he takes some pretty big licks and he's still got a pretty wiry frame. He was durable in college - he may not be as durable when a few NFL LBers wallop him at full speed.
He took 2-3 massive hits running the ball in the Cleveland game alone. He was forced from the Atlanta game for a while because of concussion concerns. He's a tough kid and the league is bending over backwards to protect mobile qbs even though in my book he's a running back once he passes the line of scrimmage.... but this isn't the ACC
It's only a matter of time.
Cam Newton: Listed at 6'5", 250 lbs. He's the size of a TE. He can handle more hits than most QBs. He's big enough to.
Russell Wilson: 5'11', 214lbs. Small but he's very smart when he runs with the football. He avoids the hits when at all possible. Scramble only to buy time and throw down field. When he does run, he tries to get out of bounds and/or stays out of harms way.
Lamar Jackson: 6'3", 212lbs. Tall and light on his feet. For comparison sake, RG3 was 6'2", 218lbs. Also similar to RG3, when he runs, he's reckless. He's always trying to get that extra yard.
Follow the link that shows his highlights from their week 17 win. Keep in mind, this is just from one game. He intentionally drives into a defender while running down the sideline when he clearly should have just stepped out of bounds (00:30). He also leans into a defender with his throwing shoulder (1:30). Here he actually drops his head to drive into another defender (3.00).
Again this was after watching just one game's highlights. This isn't even showing "mistakes" that he made during the game. He's not big enough to be so reckless when he's running with the ball. You jump out of bounds instead of taking the hit. You slide to protect your body, not lead with your head or throwing arm. Like RG3, he wants that extra yard. It's hard to fault a competitor but a QB just can't do that. Even when you are big enough to take the hits it's not smart but he's not even that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckX3qElXTbA - ( New Window )
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just wait until the league has enough film on him to adjust just as it did with RG3 and Kaepernick.
Just saying his name seems to poison the discussion, but Kaepernick is 4-2 in the playoffs with one game you can really point to as bad. I'm not sure who actually figured him out other than the seattle defense.
Yeah, beyond politics, Kaepernick had evolved past the read option stuff into a regular QB. RG3 never did.
Terps I was hoping he would fall to the Giants in the 2nd round. I think if he would stop running so recklessly, he "could" be a great QB. Still has a ways to go passing the ball as well but I think he could be great. However, they are running the read option, a lot. Just like the Redskins did with RG3. He runs recklessly, just like RG3 and I pointed that out. If he continues on this path, he will end up seriously injured and if he's lucky, a career backup.
He’s a rookie, so his default instinct right now is to take the run when the opportunity presents itself.
He’ll evolve into a passer. His completion rate went up during every year at college and his surrounding pieces sucked.
Me too. I wonder what is going on behind the scenes over there.
He’s a rookie, so his default instinct right now is to take the run when the opportunity presents itself.
He’ll evolve into a passer. His completion rate went up during every year at college and his surrounding pieces sucked.
Will he evolve into a passer? This sounds all too familiar with the crowd of people telling us it was okay that Flowers sucked because he was young and he'd improve. Same with Jackson. Going into his final year people were very high on Jackson. He never developed that part of his game hence why he wasn't drafted earlier. Developing at the NFL level is rare. He is what he is. Take it or leave it but I would not bank on him becoming a better passer. Plus, stats are stats. As all Giants fans should know, stats regarding QBs are very misleading especially completion percentage. Eli always had a lower completion percentage under Gilbride because they loved attacking downfield. Under McAdoo and Shurmur, Eli has had his highest completion percentage years. Yet, it would be hard to tel me or anybody else that Eli is playing better now tham when he was younger. Playing QB isn't about stats. It is about making the appropriate reads and hitting the appropriate players among other things. Jackson has some easy windows to throw through because teams are more worried about his legs and he still misses guys. I don't know how that is all of a sudden going to change when is was completely obvious in college and now. I like him as a player but lets call him what he is and lets not assume he'll get better because progression is not always linear amd positive.
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It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
He’s a rookie, so his default instinct right now is to take the run when the opportunity presents itself.
He’ll evolve into a passer. His completion rate went up during every year at college and his surrounding pieces sucked.
Jackson is a nice story. Slow down a bit. For someone who can’t wait to dump cold water on anything Saquon Barkley related you sure bring the hyperbole with Jackson. But yea, he’s in the playoffs.....
If Jackson is on the giants he’s home.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
That's a nice theory. Has yet to materialize in the NFL.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Yards/Attempt:
Mahomes 8.8
Mayfield 7.7
Luck 7.2
Lamar 7.1
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
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Jackson is 8th among QBs in Average Completed Air Yards.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Yards/Attempt:
Mahomes 8.8
Mayfield 7.7
Luck 7.2
Lamar 7.1
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
People above are saying he has a noodle arm. You’re looking at air yards per attempt. I’m looking at only air yards on completed passes.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
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What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
That's a nice theory. Has yet to materialize in the NFL.
How has it not? Look at the number of QBs who run that have made playoff runs their rookie or first full years.
RG3
Vick
Kaepernick
Watson
Jackson
Tebow
Mariota didn’t make it until his 3rd full year but their record improved to 9-7 when his rushing attempts nearly doubled.
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
Pocket passers (or guys like Young who were pocket passers first and runners second) are a LOT easier to find than running QB’s
Over the long term, anyway.
- Baltimore's defense is great, and
- he's reckless and will be injured.
I know GoTerps thinks he's smarter than our GM, but QB's that can run like LJackson aren't THAT common, and I wouldn't want to use a high draft pick every 2-3 years on the next running QB to fill the pipeline.
Baltimore is a dangerous team though, no doubt. Their defense shut down SanDiego.
- Baltimore's defense is great, and
- he's reckless and will be injured.
I know GoTerps thinks he's smarter than our GM, but QB's that can run like LJackson aren't THAT common, and I wouldn't want to use a high draft pick every 2-3 years on the next running QB to fill the pipeline.
Baltimore is a dangerous team though, no doubt. Their defense shut down SanDiego.
Except terrible is an exaggeration, he’s not reckless and has never missed a game to injury yet
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In comment 14246599 ajr2456 said:
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Jackson is 8th among QBs in Average Completed Air Yards.
Ahead of guys like Baker, Mahomes and Luck. He may not be a polished thrower yet, but to say he can’t throw is disingenuous.
People are talking about accuracy and you are focusing on completed catches only, unless I've misunderstood the average [i]completed[/] air yards metric.
Yards/Attempt:
Mahomes 8.8
Mayfield 7.7
Luck 7.2
Lamar 7.1
Air Yards is interesting but at the end of the day its the QBs job to find the open receiver who will naturally get lots of yards after catch. Its not like one could argue Lamar has a weak supporting cast (Crabtree, Brown, etc.)
People above are saying he has a noodle arm. You’re looking at air yards per attempt. I’m looking at only air yards on completed passes.
I don't know if I agree with joey that he has a noodle arm but he is absolutely correct that he cannot throw outside of the hash marks. His accuracy in those areas is abysmal. And I don't see it improving. He's constantly changing his arm angle and release point. That just is not a recipe for consistent accuracy.
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
There were a lot of documented issues with his Mom and he scored a 13 on the Wonderlic. 13!
It is a team with an excellent D using the ground game to control the ball and minimize mistakes/turnovers.
It really isn't too different from the style of play the Ravens implemented under Dilfer, except it wasn't the QB running, it was Jamal Lewis.
Until Jackson can beat people with his arm, nothing has been revolutionized. You simply don't last in the NFL as a one-dimensional player, even if you have initial success.
Not that it is a perfect parallel, but if memory serves, Tim Tebow won a playoff game.
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
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In comment 14246619 Ssanders9816 said:
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
There were a lot of documented issues with his Mom and he scored a 13 on the Wonderlic. 13!
The wonderlic doesn’t measure football IQ. In fact it has zero football questions on it. While it can be used to measure overall intelligence it doesn’t always correlate to football IQ.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
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In comment 14246481 Joey in VA said:
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It never does in this league for a QB with legs. Defensive coaches are chickens, they are terrified of the pass going over the top, but once it really starts to matter, DCs are going to do everything to stop him on the ground and he's not going to be able to beat teams throwing it, he's just not. This is all temporary, he'll get crushed eventually, won't be able to move the ball through the air and his bubble will burst just like every other fad running QB.
You may be right but in the Cleveland game Williams was selling all out on the run. Literally daring baltimore to pass and Baltimore still ran it down their throats. They're is something about their run blocking scheme that is just confusing the snot out of people. Their RBs have gaping holes to run through on a consistent basis. And Baltimore does not care about down and distance. Even if it's 3rd and 15, they'll run. Obviously the passing scheme is different, but the reliance on the run game regardless of defensive scheme and a dominant defense is reminiscent of 80s Giants football.
All it takes is 4 weeks of film, and I'm not dismissing Jackson's talent, he's a superbly talented athlete and what he's doing is great fun to watch but it is not sustainable. All teams will do is watch some film and this will be over, it's not like Roman and Co. are inventing anything new. They are basically running the veer at this point, it's not easy to defend until you figure out the 4 or 5 keys the team is using to run it and then it's junk. This isn't the Big 8 circa 1984, you can't make this work long term in the NFL, you just can't. I've played, coached and studied this game since I could pick up a football and sure I'm not a scout or some savant but I know this game inside and out and time dictates that this offense will be figured out and absolutely strangled within due time. Remember the Wildcat? Remember RG3? Remember Kaepernick? You will also remember this, fondly, but it will be stomped to death in due time.
You may be right. In fact, you probably are because I cannot see how a team that cannot consistently require a defense to at least be somewhat concerned about being burned in the passing game can sustain itself. But I will point out that the Wildcat was just gimmicky BS and was run a couple times a game. Re RGIII, some argue that his downfall aside from injuries was his insistence tp Shannahan that they run less RPO and he become more of a classic drop back passer, but he couldn't read a defense or have the accuracy for that. We'll see but in the meantime it's interesting that a team can so radically shift its offensive philosophy mid-season and succeed
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In comment 14246619 Ssanders9816 said:
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In comment 14246455 GiantNatty said:
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
Players refuse to run the 40 all the time. Running the 40 could only hurt Jackson, we know he’s fast.
Teams seemed to be able to get in touch with him..