already made the points, but it is important to reinforce it so there isn't a groundswell of errant opinions acting as if this is revolutionary.
It is a team with an excellent D using the ground game to control the ball and minimize mistakes/turnovers.
It really isn't too different from the style of play the Ravens implemented under Dilfer, except it wasn't the QB running, it was Jamal Lewis.
Until Jackson can beat people with his arm, nothing has been revolutionized. You simply don't last in the NFL as a one-dimensional player, even if you have initial success.
Not that it is a perfect parallel, but if memory serves, Tim Tebow won a playoff game.
It isn't revolutionary per se, but it is relative to the way the NFL has been geared for the last 5 years or so and the way the current rules favor passing offenses.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
Players refuse to run the 40 all the time. Running the 40 could only hurt Jackson, we know he’s fast.
Teams seemed to be able to get in touch with him..
There were documented stories they did but regardless there were a few red flags. I just don’t see the Giants trading up for a guy unless they are 150% sold on him to be the next franchise guy. The last QB they’ve reportedly been enamored with was Mahomes. And they tried to trade up for him. Now we know why. I think they will do the same, but ultimately land the next guy they feel similar about.
What's easier to do? Find an athletic QB out of college to run the type of offense he ran in college or find and train a Super Bowl-caliber passer?
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
I agree with Terps on this point and have made the same point myself. But it also means Jackson isn’t some unicorn — guys like him come out every year on a sliding scale. Maybe not quite as athletic, but better passers, etc.
This is why the Giants shouldn’t force feed a QB pick. They will be able to draft a league comparable QB in round 1 every year if they want the Jackson type.
As far as the Ravens go, they’re doing what any sensible staff would do. They have an elite defense, a good OL, and trash receivers. Starting QB goes down with a mobile, athletic, QB waiting — you run the ball, play ball control, and don’t put your defense in bad spots. It’s not rocket science or innovative. This is basically how the Ravens were built and what they did pre Flacco.
As Arc pointed out, we couldn't get away with it right now due to out weak defensive roster and not that quality of OL either.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
To each their own I guess. The Ravens are winning right now and that is the most important thing. I’ve made a point to check out all the Ravens games since Jackson took over bevy I am very intrigued to see how he’d fair in the NFL. So far so good, but from a less important aesthetic side, to me, it’s just not fun to watch. I have no interest in watching a glorified wildcat offense. It bores me to tears. Something annoys the hell out of me watching the QB tuck the ball and run every play. It’s always drove me crazy watching it happen during college games and it drives me crazy at the NFL level.
Again, winning is the most important thing so I understand it if it’s successful. But I also think there should be some entertainment value attached to watching games and for me, watching QBs take off and run every play isn’t all that entertaining. I’d take it if it meant us winning games, it’s just not my idea of entertaining
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
What they have that we don't is a dominant OL. They managed to make two very average RBs into studs. If SB is behind that OL, he might average 180 yards a game.
WRONG. The ravens running game was ranked 2nd to last prior to Flaccos injury. They had 834 yards rushing after 9 games. Have rushed for 1384 since. The Oline was getting Flacco killed and awful run blocking.
What is making it work is Lamar is so damn fast and defenses have to account for him. Greg Roman is the Ravens run game coordinator. Why does that matter? He was San Fransiscos OC in 2012 when Kaep burst on the scene.
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
Jacksons still playing and competing and Giants are not. May only work for this year but what if it takes them to a Super Bowl?
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
Jacksons still playing and competing and Giants are not. May only work for this year but what if it takes them to a Super Bowl?
Jackson is riding the #1 defense in football. In his seven starts he’s averaging 160 yards passing. Good lord do people even watch games?
RE: RE: He should have the rookie of the year IMO Â
As Arc pointed out, we couldn't get away with it right now due to out weak defensive roster and not that quality of OL either.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
The few highlights and games that I've seen of him are fun to look at, but as others have pointed out, sustainability could be the question. No doubt about it, he's really injected some life into that offense though. We'll have to see what happens going forward.
As well as next year when the season begins. My guess is that he’ll be a back up or out of the league in 2 to 3 years.
He would’ve had something like 220 carriers had he played a full season. What he’s doing is nice right now but, not sustainable in today’s NFL and, anyone clamoring for him is fooling themselves.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
but from my couch, I can easily see why Belichick passed on this guy. Sure, as with RG III, quite fun to watch. And, like RG III, an injury waiting to happen. Nothing special here, imo
take the stance an injury won't happen, Jackson is very dependant on having an excellent defense behind him.
Some of the same people who bitch and moan about Eli needing to have everything go right for him to succeed are calling what Jackson is doing as revolutionary, yet he and the Ravens will only go as far as the D carries them.
When the Browns were driving for a winning FG to knock them out of the playoffs, Jackson was on the bench helpless. It hasn't been domination. He's just not made the critical mistakes yet. and for all this bluster, the ravens still made the playoffs on a final drive - where their D got a huge stop.
Jackson took them from a fringe playoff team to a fringe playoff team.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
We have the wonderlic discussion every year, and every year it's somehow necessary to point out how many all time great players, QBs included, had low wonderlic scores.
And his refusal to run the 40 probably was directly tied into the nonsense about playing him at WR. Why should a QB prospect run the 40? Who cares about 40 times especially for that position?
Also, nobody believes the Louisville system is 'easy' because it isn't. This is factually incorrect stuff. It's actually known not to be 'easy' at all. Maybe you're confusing Louisville for another college team.
I don't know what Ssanders grasp on Louisvilee's system is, but Petrino did have to simplify the offense because Jackson has a difficult time picking it up.
To ajr's point, Jackson's final year, more elements were brought back into the offense, at least from reports that Jackson had a better grasp. It was a knock on Jackson, but not a killer.
But then again - one could look at Louisville this year and see what a shitshow it has been without Jackson.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
I spent three weeks at various times during the off-season before Jackson’s last year working with Louisville on their analytics set up and their recruiting dtatabase, them along with FSU, Michigan, Texas, Auburn were my main clients.
Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
This has been written about to a degree. Jax came from a HS in Florida that really didn’t use a playbook. He was such a talent that his coaches really let him improvise.
When he got to Louisville he struggled learning the playbook because he never had to learn one. And Petrino’s was pretty comprehensive. So it took a while for him to adjust. Plus, Petrino had to teach him how to trust his arm instead of his instinct to run. That was a process.
Jax wanted to be coached and taught the passing game, so he was a willing student. But they needed to reach a compromise because Jax was such a devastating runner. That’s really why Petrino altered his traditional approach - to fit the talent.
Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
Why is Joe Flacco a healthy backup? He's not out for the year. That pocket passer that everyone says is the only thing that wins in the NFL lost his job because he wasn't getting it done. That team was headed nowhere and the coach was about to be let go behind that pocket passer.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
that even John Harbaugh doesn’t think this offense is sustainable. It’s working now, so they are riding it out. Taking it to the very limit, and willing to put LJax at risk.
that even John Harbaugh doesn’t think this offense is sustainable. It’s working now, so they are riding it out. Taking it to the very limit, and willing to put LJax at risk.
Very similar to RG3. But the 'Skins "forced" RG3 to continue playing with an injured knee that eventually gave way. I hope Baltimore would not do the same.
Cannot blame Harbaugh for riding it out. Kid is fun to watch playing college offense in the NFL. But you just cannot let your franchise QB continue to mix it up with NFL LBs.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
He wasn't great in 2014 or 2015 either.
Nothing on the Niners was great in 2014 or 2015. That's when the Harbaugh thing blew up.
Therein lies the point. From 2014 to 2016, the Niners shuffled through three head coaches, three offensive coordinators, and three different offensive schemes to go along with players fleeing the sinking ship left and right and the 32nd ranked defense mixed in for good measure
It's not a situation conducive to any success for anyone.
Are great passers but also good athletes who can pull the ball down and beat you by either running for first downs or escaping pressure. Wilson has a super bowl, multiple playoff appearances and an almost lifetime regular season70% winning percentage. Ditto Rodgers and Ben. Montana and Young were also very good scramblers. Why is it a negative to have another weapon that defenses need to respect?
were fairly well aligned in wanting Jackson in the draft.
He didn't like the antics, but still thought highly of Jackson as a prospect.
I balked because having your Mom as your agent is a really bad idea, along with the other pre-draft actions. They were big red flags.
And let's keep in mind, Jackson's story isn't written yet. At this point, he's a good running QB who helped the Ravens get to the playoffs. Let's see what the future holds.
which isnt bad at all... and he can help them win games... but he's not revolutionizing the position by any means.. we've seen a dozen of this type of QB before.
And if he continues to take hits like I saw in the Cleveland and Atlanta games, his career will be over by age 26.
As Arc pointed out, we couldn't get away with it right now due to out weak defensive roster and not that quality of OL either.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
To each their own I guess. The Ravens are winning right now and that is the most important thing. I’ve made a point to check out all the Ravens games since Jackson took over bevy I am very intrigued to see how he’d fair in the NFL. So far so good, but from a less important aesthetic side, to me, it’s just not fun to watch. I have no interest in watching a glorified wildcat offense. It bores me to tears. Something annoys the hell out of me watching the QB tuck the ball and run every play. It’s always drove me crazy watching it happen during college games and it drives me crazy at the NFL level.
Again, winning is the most important thing so I understand it if it’s successful. But I also think there should be some entertainment value attached to watching games and for me, watching QBs take off and run every play isn’t all that entertaining. I’d take it if it meant us winning games, it’s just not my idea of entertaining
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
It is contrarian which in football has a built in advantage, at least until teams can adjust. But, it must be a bitch to prepare for and with the modern NFL teams may not have the players to deal with it either.
It is fun to watch and it takes huge balls to do this in the NFL. Maybe the coach was getting canned anyway so he figure what the hell. In the pros there is a built in pressure against doing anything contrarian to the other teams because if it goes everyone will blame the coach who is doing something different and say it was his fault, that he is a crazy nut.
Personally I think it is very entertaining but I am skeptical it will start a trend around the league or that even Baltimore will look to play this style long term. That said of they win it all this year that matters less.
The risk to the QB is the problem and athletes like Jackson are rare even if they do not have great throwing ability. The only thing hits a QB would take in this type of system long term is probably unsustainable on the pro level.
I wish it wasn't Baltimore because I still hold a grudge from the 2000 ass kicking, I really would love a team playing like this to win it all. They do have a great defense and they are a physical team. Try this with the Giants and it would not work.
The revolutionary part of it
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
RE: RE: RE: Ravens sound like a really fun team to watch Â
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
How about his first game as a starter? 19 passing attempts, 26 rushes.
It is a team with an excellent D using the ground game to control the ball and minimize mistakes/turnovers.
It really isn't too different from the style of play the Ravens implemented under Dilfer, except it wasn't the QB running, it was Jamal Lewis.
Until Jackson can beat people with his arm, nothing has been revolutionized. You simply don't last in the NFL as a one-dimensional player, even if you have initial success.
Not that it is a perfect parallel, but if memory serves, Tim Tebow won a playoff game.
It isn't revolutionary per se, but it is relative to the way the NFL has been geared for the last 5 years or so and the way the current rules favor passing offenses.
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I have a sneaking suspicion the Ravens leapfrogged over the Giants to get Jackson. They didn't jump over Cleveland or the Jets. Makes sense that they thought the Giants might be interested with the second pick of the second round.
Can you imagine having Barkley and Jackson? Wow.
No, the Giants probably had NO interest in Jackson with his antics and lack of football IQ. He’s not the kind of guy you replace Eli with.
Antics? Lack of football IQ? Please explain.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
Players refuse to run the 40 all the time. Running the 40 could only hurt Jackson, we know he’s fast.
Teams seemed to be able to get in touch with him..
There were documented stories they did but regardless there were a few red flags. I just don’t see the Giants trading up for a guy unless they are 150% sold on him to be the next franchise guy. The last QB they’ve reportedly been enamored with was Mahomes. And they tried to trade up for him. Now we know why. I think they will do the same, but ultimately land the next guy they feel similar about.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
If you can find the next Troy Aikman, great. Draft him and build around him. But if you want to talk about rare...Troy Aikman is a lot more rare than Lamar Jackson. He's harder to find and harder to build around.
I agree with Terps on this point and have made the same point myself. But it also means Jackson isn’t some unicorn — guys like him come out every year on a sliding scale. Maybe not quite as athletic, but better passers, etc.
This is why the Giants shouldn’t force feed a QB pick. They will be able to draft a league comparable QB in round 1 every year if they want the Jackson type.
As far as the Ravens go, they’re doing what any sensible staff would do. They have an elite defense, a good OL, and trash receivers. Starting QB goes down with a mobile, athletic, QB waiting — you run the ball, play ball control, and don’t put your defense in bad spots. It’s not rocket science or innovative. This is basically how the Ravens were built and what they did pre Flacco.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
Ryan Mallett.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
To each their own I guess. The Ravens are winning right now and that is the most important thing. I’ve made a point to check out all the Ravens games since Jackson took over bevy I am very intrigued to see how he’d fair in the NFL. So far so good, but from a less important aesthetic side, to me, it’s just not fun to watch. I have no interest in watching a glorified wildcat offense. It bores me to tears. Something annoys the hell out of me watching the QB tuck the ball and run every play. It’s always drove me crazy watching it happen during college games and it drives me crazy at the NFL level.
Again, winning is the most important thing so I understand it if it’s successful. But I also think there should be some entertainment value attached to watching games and for me, watching QBs take off and run every play isn’t all that entertaining. I’d take it if it meant us winning games, it’s just not my idea of entertaining
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And they didn't need to draft Barkley to do it.
And his team is still playing. I promise you this is the one team Belichick wants to see the least in the playoffs. They're dangerous.
What they have that we don't is a dominant OL. They managed to make two very average RBs into studs. If SB is behind that OL, he might average 180 yards a game.
What is making it work is Lamar is so damn fast and defenses have to account for him. Greg Roman is the Ravens run game coordinator. Why does that matter? He was San Fransiscos OC in 2012 when Kaep burst on the scene.
Its a new offense and once figured out, its over.
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
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Im surprised people still try to do it.
Its a new offense and once figured out, its over.
Someone said Jackson to Giants in draft? You gotta be kidding me. No way old school Mara, DG & Shurmur go for that. And that comforts me. There is NO DEFENSE for a strong running team & play action pocket passer. None. There never will be.
Im fine trying it over and over again, it will work again. Let other people get distracted by shiny objects.
Jacksons still playing and competing and Giants are not. May only work for this year but what if it takes them to a Super Bowl?
Jackson is riding the #1 defense in football. In his seven starts he’s averaging 160 yards passing. Good lord do people even watch games?
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He took a non-playoff team and made it a playoff team.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
You’re gonna be insufferable with this kid.
He's already insufferable.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
The few highlights and games that I've seen of him are fun to look at, but as others have pointed out, sustainability could be the question. No doubt about it, he's really injected some life into that offense though. We'll have to see what happens going forward.
He would’ve had something like 220 carriers had he played a full season. What he’s doing is nice right now but, not sustainable in today’s NFL and, anyone clamoring for him is fooling themselves.
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Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Some of the same people who bitch and moan about Eli needing to have everything go right for him to succeed are calling what Jackson is doing as revolutionary, yet he and the Ravens will only go as far as the D carries them.
When the Browns were driving for a winning FG to knock them out of the playoffs, Jackson was on the bench helpless. It hasn't been domination. He's just not made the critical mistakes yet. and for all this bluster, the ravens still made the playoffs on a final drive - where their D got a huge stop.
Jackson took them from a fringe playoff team to a fringe playoff team.
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the point:
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Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
His refusal to run the 40 at the combine, teams having trouble communicating with his agent (his mom), score of 13 on the Wonderlic, etc. Just lots of red flags and coming from what many believed was a very easy system in Louisville would not translate well to the next level. These are things that generally don’t impress the Giants.
We have the wonderlic discussion every year, and every year it's somehow necessary to point out how many all time great players, QBs included, had low wonderlic scores.
And his refusal to run the 40 probably was directly tied into the nonsense about playing him at WR. Why should a QB prospect run the 40? Who cares about 40 times especially for that position?
Also, nobody believes the Louisville system is 'easy' because it isn't. This is factually incorrect stuff. It's actually known not to be 'easy' at all. Maybe you're confusing Louisville for another college team.
I don't know what Ssanders grasp on Louisvilee's system is, but Petrino did have to simplify the offense because Jackson has a difficult time picking it up.
To ajr's point, Jackson's final year, more elements were brought back into the offense, at least from reports that Jackson had a better grasp. It was a knock on Jackson, but not a killer.
But then again - one could look at Louisville this year and see what a shitshow it has been without Jackson.
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In comment 14246681 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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the point:
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Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
I spent three weeks at various times during the off-season before Jackson’s last year working with Louisville on their analytics set up and their recruiting dtatabase, them along with FSU, Michigan, Texas, Auburn were my main clients.
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In comment 14246681 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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the point:
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Petrino runs one of the more complicated passing games in college football, and Jackson picked it up well.
Petrino simplified the offense for Jackson and added more designed running plays for him.
Petrino did a good job tailoring the offense to fit Jackson, but it wasn't the same offense he had been running.
That’s not entirely true. While yes he did tailor the offense to fit Jackson with more running plays, Jackson’s last year their the offense was a lot like the schemes he ran prior to Jackson. The passing schemes were complicated.
Ajr How do you know his? I am not being snarky; I am genuinely curious. Are you able to tell from just watching, if so what details do you look for to know this? Perhaps you gathered this information from research? Again, genuinely curious.
This has been written about to a degree. Jax came from a HS in Florida that really didn’t use a playbook. He was such a talent that his coaches really let him improvise.
When he got to Louisville he struggled learning the playbook because he never had to learn one. And Petrino’s was pretty comprehensive. So it took a while for him to adjust. Plus, Petrino had to teach him how to trust his arm instead of his instinct to run. That was a process.
Jax wanted to be coached and taught the passing game, so he was a willing student. But they needed to reach a compromise because Jax was such a devastating runner. That’s really why Petrino altered his traditional approach - to fit the talent.
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
I don't think really anyone is arguing that. Running qbs are successful quite a bit, the argument is longevity
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
Jackson's fine, we knew when he was drafted that he had to refine and stick to his mechanics, and he's playing like a rookie game manager with some playmaking ability.
I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
Flacco has been mediocre for a couple of years now and the Ravens are ready to move on from him. That's why they drafted Jackson to begin with.
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I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
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I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
He wasn't great in 2014 or 2015 either.
Very similar to RG3. But the 'Skins "forced" RG3 to continue playing with an injured knee that eventually gave way. I hope Baltimore would not do the same.
Cannot blame Harbaugh for riding it out. Kid is fun to watch playing college offense in the NFL. But you just cannot let your franchise QB continue to mix it up with NFL LBs.
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In comment 14246938 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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take:
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I don't know what it is about QBs that can run that makes people go foaming at the mouth looking for reasons to discredit them in any other area.
What is it about a statistically middling/poor passer that has running ability that makes people foam at the mouth to talk about revolutionizing the game?
We've seen this song and dance before. Either a new system gets put in place like the wildcat, or a QB with impressive running skills excels very quickly. Then NFL DC's force them to rely on being NFL QB's and they fail.
Did Colin Kaepernick forget how to run or did DC's figure out that if you make him throw the ball, he is pedestrian?
I don't think he forgot how to run, and I don't think his statistics show that a defense 'figured him out'. I think he started for a godawful franchise in tear it down mode and hasn't played a game since. If someone can look at the Niners roster his last year and think 'You know, he really should have been putting up even better numbers than he did', I'd like to see it.
The team was terrible, the coach was a joke who fled Pro Football with his tail between his legs, and the GM got bounced on his ass as well. He also wasn't benched for Gabbert. In fact the opposite was true. Gabbert started the year and lost the job by throwing picks in every start.
The 2016 Niners best receiver was a Jets cast off slot guy. Let that sink in. That team had one other talented player on offense, Carlos Hyde.
He wasn't great in 2014 or 2015 either.
Nothing on the Niners was great in 2014 or 2015. That's when the Harbaugh thing blew up.
Therein lies the point. From 2014 to 2016, the Niners shuffled through three head coaches, three offensive coordinators, and three different offensive schemes to go along with players fleeing the sinking ship left and right and the 32nd ranked defense mixed in for good measure
It's not a situation conducive to any success for anyone.
but thanks for regaling us on the QB's of yore.
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In comment 14246326 Go Terps said:
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He took a non-playoff team and made it a playoff team.
Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic.
And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.
You’re gonna be insufferable with this kid.
He's already insufferable.
Terps didn’t want him during his draft antics. But now he does. Hypocrite
He didn't like the antics, but still thought highly of Jackson as a prospect.
I balked because having your Mom as your agent is a really bad idea, along with the other pre-draft actions. They were big red flags.
And let's keep in mind, Jackson's story isn't written yet. At this point, he's a good running QB who helped the Ravens get to the playoffs. Let's see what the future holds.
but thanks for regaling us on the QB's of yore.
There have been a couple threads started in the past week about Jackson's impact.
When a thread is started about Jackson being pedestrian or sucking as a passer, I'm sure there will be a counter-point to that too.
People aren't discrediting Jackson as much as they are tempering the idea he is doing things we haven't seen before - think the Cam Newton principle
And if he continues to take hits like I saw in the Cleveland and Atlanta games, his career will be over by age 26.
Can't be. "Escapes" count as run attempts as well.
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As Arc pointed out, we couldn't get away with it right now due to out weak defensive roster and not that quality of OL either.
In any case, you don't need to be targeting a run QB to justify building a great D and OL.
All that having been said, sounds like Jackson is improving quickly.
To each their own I guess. The Ravens are winning right now and that is the most important thing. I’ve made a point to check out all the Ravens games since Jackson took over bevy I am very intrigued to see how he’d fair in the NFL. So far so good, but from a less important aesthetic side, to me, it’s just not fun to watch. I have no interest in watching a glorified wildcat offense. It bores me to tears. Something annoys the hell out of me watching the QB tuck the ball and run every play. It’s always drove me crazy watching it happen during college games and it drives me crazy at the NFL level.
Again, winning is the most important thing so I understand it if it’s successful. But I also think there should be some entertainment value attached to watching games and for me, watching QBs take off and run every play isn’t all that entertaining. I’d take it if it meant us winning games, it’s just not my idea of entertaining
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
It is contrarian which in football has a built in advantage, at least until teams can adjust. But, it must be a bitch to prepare for and with the modern NFL teams may not have the players to deal with it either.
It is fun to watch and it takes huge balls to do this in the NFL. Maybe the coach was getting canned anyway so he figure what the hell. In the pros there is a built in pressure against doing anything contrarian to the other teams because if it goes everyone will blame the coach who is doing something different and say it was his fault, that he is a crazy nut.
Personally I think it is very entertaining but I am skeptical it will start a trend around the league or that even Baltimore will look to play this style long term. That said of they win it all this year that matters less.
The risk to the QB is the problem and athletes like Jackson are rare even if they do not have great throwing ability. The only thing hits a QB would take in this type of system long term is probably unsustainable on the pro level.
I wish it wasn't Baltimore because I still hold a grudge from the 2000 ass kicking, I really would love a team playing like this to win it all. They do have a great defense and they are a physical team. Try this with the Giants and it would not work.
rocco8112 : 10:57 am : link : reply
is the full design of the offense to feature running in a way that no pro team is doing. Someone mentioned the Single wing or the Veer and it is an offense much closer to that than any pro style offense out there. Offenses you see in Pop Warner or High School football.
all of those offenses will only pass the ball out of necessity. It isn't like the Ravens have even gone to a run-only or even a run-mostly plan. Just that they've integrated a crap load of designed QB runs.
That's revolutionary?
To be fair, because there's already a lot of slanted info out there, there has not been one occasion where he's run more than he's passed since he was named the starter. Whether you like the style is play is a matter of personal taste, but this isn't a stone age 3 yards and cloud of dust approach to offense. He's averaging 20 pass attempts per game, and when they get into 3rd down situation, he's a pass first QB.
In 3rd down situations, they've run it 30 times with Jackson and thrown it 50. 17 first downs on the ground, 18 first downs in the air. They're not putting up flashy passing stats, but he's certainly making plays with his arm and making their run game that much harder to defend.
How about his first game as a starter? 19 passing attempts, 26 rushes.