I've been sort of bullish on Britton - but I'd be willing to bet he has a better year than Robertson and possibly by a semi-fair margin, too.
This will wind up being great value.
2 off seasons from now, when Chapman is entering his final year and has presumably lost at least a little something, and weve just exercised 2 more years of 33 year old Britton for $25M total, it will all be crystal clear that Cashman had his head screwed in straight.
(Not to mention, further protection from the player options Chapman has in his deal, not to say that hed ever consider exercising them in FA markets as bearish as these).
Ill predict that this team early exercise/opt-out option setup gets used more frequently in the next 1-2 years.
If Britton is healthy and who we think he'll be, we'll know it and be able to pick up the last two years. If he never gets back to the Britton of old, we cut ties after two years.
Personally I think he'll be back to his old self and 100% healthy this year, and the Yanks will be picking up that option.
I've been sort of bullish on Britton - but I'd be willing to bet he has a better year than Robertson and possibly by a semi-fair margin, too.
This will wind up being great value.
2 off seasons from now, when Chapman is entering his final year and has presumably lost at least a little something, and weve just exercised 2 more years of 33 year old Britton for $25M total, it will all be crystal clear that Cashman had his head screwed in straight.
(Not to mention, further protection from the player options Chapman has in his deal, not to say that hed ever consider exercising them in FA markets as bearish as these).
Ill predict that this team early exercise/opt-out option setup gets used more frequently in the next 1-2 years.
Don't forget that Betances is a FA after this season and Chapman has an opt out that he can exercise. This contract is insurance against either or both leaving.
Don't forget that Betances is a FA after this season and Chapman has an opt out that he can exercise. This contract is insurance against either or both leaving.
Yep, said that earlier and maybe another reason for Britton over DRob....
Cashman sounds lukewarm about making a deal for Gray now that Sabathia's health is an issue. Cashman is saying maybe we don't trade him until spring training or the regular season. Of course if he pitches well in Spring training or the regular season he isn't going anywhere. If he pitches poorly we won't get anything for him.
That Gray stuff was posturing. I dont think there is ant fin guys back at this point. Id rarely say that, but Id rarely expect a GM to say 3 months ago that he has every intention of trading a player.
Betances becomes an FA & Chapman could opt out (I don't expect he will but....),so along w/Britton solidifying the BP this season,he is insurance at closer in case the worst case scenario took place. As others have said, I expect to see Britton return to what he was prior to the achilles injury. As far as Ottavino, he'd be a nice addition,but is 33 & has really has had only one outstanding year.I'd rather see them pursue Kelvin Herrara who has pitched as a closer in the AL,has had more success than Ottavino & is only 29.
takes NYY out from signing Ottavino or any other higher end RP. The bullpen currently sits like this:
Chapman 9th
Betances 8th
Britton 7th
Green 6th
Holder 5th
Tarpley - Lefty
Kahnle - Injured 2018, but 2017 was very good.
Long man - German, Adams, Acevedo or Cessa (out of options)
I don't see a high leverage spot open for an Ottavino type costing 10 million annually.
takes NYY out from signing Ottavino or any other higher end RP. The bullpen currently sits like this:
Chapman 9th
Betances 8th
Britton 7th
Green 6th
Holder 5th
Tarpley - Lefty
Kahnle - Injured 2018, but 2017 was very good.
Long man - German, Adams, Acevedo or Cessa (out of options)
I don't see a high leverage spot open for an Ottavino type costing 10 million annually.
You may be right, but Cash himself said they were getting 2 RPs this offseason. If Kahnle hadn't fallen off the table last year, they'd be done. German and Tarpley could be the final pieces.
The price for Ottavino is probably pretty much set now with Joe Kelly at the bottom end 3/$25 and Miller 2/$25 at the top. I think he will be closer to Kelly.
Interesting that the Sox haven't signed anyone to close. Sort of forces them to re-sign Kimbrell at closer to his price.
Betances is a FA at the end of the year. Chapman showed troubling signs last year ( certainly speaks to managing his workload).
As for optionality, mid year Trade value of one more RP to a playoff team is enormous.
We dont have Machado or Gray moved yet. We dont have Frazier established as playable or tradeable. We dont have Didi back and in shape. We dont have a rebound year from Sanchez yet. We dont have Severino fixed yet. We dont have a clear great prospect in Florial yet. With CC coming off surgery and his age, we dont have mid year pieces to trade.
When we did, we picked up a Kings Ransom for Chapman and Miller. Pulling that stunt off one more time if the pieces fall out way or not may be vital.
Given two years of optionality and all the other questionmarks, I think another proven reliever makes tons of sense.
If it all works then we have Frazier/Stanton, Andujar, Gray and a Rp singly or in bundles to trade for an ace or 1B.
When the delta between the upside of all those players mentioned above and their unproven downside is that large; optionality is like spending $9m to protect the upside of $200m over the next two years.
The Yanks major strength was the BP last two years. It allows them to start CC every 5th game and eat the last 3 or 4 innings. (and saves that elbow of Tanaka's). It is also nice to have virtually two complete sets of BP pitchers.
They could go - Green, Betances, Chapman one night and
Holder, XX, Britton the next. They can mix and match Betances, Britton and Chapman to fight fatigue at closer or set up.
One more reputable BP arm just makes it comfortable, allows for rest so that come late August and September the major contributors aren't pushing 80 innings.
I hope they have space for some of the hard throwers in AA and AAA to break into the bullpen this year. There are more Betances' down there pretending to be starters.
It makes more sense in my humble opinion for NYY to add Adam Warren than Ottavino.
Warren is a proven Yankee, well liked by teammates and coaches, plus has tremendous versatility as he can spot start, long man and play in high leverage spots when the pen is tired. Plus he would be only 1/3rd of the cost of the higher end FA guys still available.
The Yankees would probably have to give him a no trade clause after dealing him 2 times already - LOL.
Granted LarmerTJR started the thread to talk about the addition of Britton. Thank you Larmer.
However, one other thing to keep in mind before we go all in on the thesis that Hal is going to hinder the Yankees ability to compete:
One other way to compete if you have a ton of money is to play the long game and outlast Boston and the Astros.
For example:
1) Pouring even more coaching into the minors and international system so you can get guys to MLB faster and put an early shine on every prospect
2) Locking up non pitcher Judge early at an average annual $10M below market. Yes I know thats not recent practice but that idea was prominent when the yankees had league leading FA and payroll practices so injury risk was hedged to the last minute.
3) One more year in 2019 that looks like Judge's rookie year for a total draw and star coming to his peak years and an early lock up is a huge and sound advantage It frees up $10M per year for other things for a long time.
4) Im not sure I would lock up anyone else anytime soon, but that is a smart move the Yankees could make.
5) Many teams over spend and then have to take a lot of money back (Stanton and Tulo are examples) The Yankees are in a position to vulture pirate more bargains from a aggressively conservative position.
A hypothetical: Either or both Machado or Harper will sign with the Yankees or another team. One of them will be on a team where attendance goes down because of injuries to others or to a team with a poor pen or SP or minors and they will swing away on a losing team. Who can take them on (provided a Stanton like funding from the team that ran short)
The only natural built in very big attendance well run organization over the long haul is the Dodgers.
Not advocating they take this approach and I think they have too many question marks right now not to get Machado but it is not an automatic that Hal is being a tight wad. There will be an attendance/economic recession sooner or later and positioning matters
Good add to the discussion. Forgot about Warren. However, I do think they have to be balanced and careful not to clog their pipeline of AAA and AA hard throwers. (as arniefez pointed out)
Granted LarmerTJR started the thread to talk about the addition of Britton. Thank you Larmer.
However, one other thing to keep in mind before we go all in on the thesis that Hal is going to hinder the Yankees ability to compete:
One other way to compete if you have a ton of money is to play the long game and outlast Boston and the Astros.
For example:
1) Pouring even more coaching into the minors and international system so you can get guys to MLB faster and put an early shine on every prospect
2) Locking up non pitcher Judge early at an average annual $10M below market. Yes I know thats not recent practice but that idea was prominent when the yankees had league leading FA and payroll practices so injury risk was hedged to the last minute.
3) One more year in 2019 that looks like Judge's rookie year for a total draw and star coming to his peak years and an early lock up is a huge and sound advantage It frees up $10M per year for other things for a long time.
4) Im not sure I would lock up anyone else anytime soon, but that is a smart move the Yankees could make.
5) Many teams over spend and then have to take a lot of money back (Stanton and Tulo are examples) The Yankees are in a position to vulture pirate more bargains from a aggressively conservative position.
A hypothetical: Either or both Machado or Harper will sign with the Yankees or another team. One of them will be on a team where attendance goes down because of injuries to others or to a team with a poor pen or SP or minors and they will swing away on a losing team. Who can take them on (provided a Stanton like funding from the team that ran short)
The only natural built in very big attendance well run organization over the long haul is the Dodgers.
Not advocating they take this approach and I think they have too many question marks right now not to get Machado but it is not an automatic that Hal is being a tight wad. There will be an attendance/economic recession sooner or later and positioning matters
Indians were able to lock up Carrasco/Kluber/Jose Ramirez for bargain contracts tried doing the same with Lindor. If Yankees did the same with Gleyber/Severino/Gary (after he shows improvement or now is a nice buy-low deal) they would set themselves in a much better position financially in future years.
Remember George never wanted to give extensions during current contracts. This ended up costing the Yankees a ton in the long run when re-upping Jeter/Posada/Mo and even ended up losing Pettitte to FA
It makes more sense in my humble opinion for NYY to add Adam Warren than Ottavino.
Warren is a proven Yankee, well liked by teammates and coaches, plus has tremendous versatility as he can spot start, long man and play in high leverage spots when the pen is tired. Plus he would be only 1/3rd of the cost of the higher end FA guys still available.
The Yankees would probably have to give him a no trade clause after dealing him 2 times already - LOL.
No way JP. With all due respect, Warren was a mere shell of his former self last time. I think German would be a better long man at this point than Warren. He seemed a lot more vulnerable when he returned from the Cubbies.
I think we have differing views on what is needed to finish this BP. I wouldn't mind saving $$ for Manny and I wouldn't be upset if Cashman (or Hal) decides they have enough high end BP arms. I am fixated on multiple competent parts for finishing games. Between CC and Tanaka, they need enough parts to go 3 to 4 innings per in those games without killing the arms by mid-August. If they are looking at long relief, I'd stay with German over signing Warren (didn't know he was FA).
Any Yanks discussion is great. I also think we may have space to try the hard throwers at the lower end of the bullpen. Cessa is out of options. Cole is gone. Hopefully we try and test them there like they did with Green and Holder. And lets remember our fickle relievers can be. Tommy Tightpants was lights out in 2017, almost useless last year. I am not 100% sold Holder has entirely turned the corner. Another solid arm like Ottavino, maybe a Warren, is important. As someone mentioned, maybe a guy like Bach.
Agree on allowing the younger arms space to grow and develop at the MLB level. I suggested Warren because Section stated that Cashman said NYY will look to bring in 2 RPs this off-season.
Realistically I think only Tarpley, German and maybe Adams have the best chances contributing at the big club this year out of the pen.
Agree on allowing the younger arms space to grow and develop at the MLB level. I suggested Warren because Section stated that Cashman said NYY will look to bring in 2 RPs this off-season.
Realistically I think only Tarpley, German and maybe Adams have the best chances contributing at the big club this year out of the pen.
Hopefully Acevedo, too at some point. Hell be 25 by the time the season begins.
Agree on allowing the younger arms space to grow and develop at the MLB level. I suggested Warren because Section stated that Cashman said NYY will look to bring in 2 RPs this off-season.
Realistically I think only Tarpley, German and maybe Adams have the best chances contributing at the big club this year out of the pen.
Hopefully Acevedo, too at some point. Hell be 25 by the time the season begins.
The arm is there no doubt Hoya, but Acevedo has only pitched 12 innings above AA and that was in 2017. I think he will begin the year at AA and move quickly to AAA and probably stay there for a good part of the season as a starter.
I've been sort of bullish on Britton - but I'd be willing to bet he has a better year than Robertson and possibly by a semi-fair margin, too.
This will wind up being great value.
2 off seasons from now, when Chapman is entering his final year and has presumably lost at least a little something, and weve just exercised 2 more years of 33 year old Britton for $25M total, it will all be crystal clear that Cashman had his head screwed in straight.
(Not to mention, further protection from the player options Chapman has in his deal, not to say that hed ever consider exercising them in FA markets as bearish as these).
Ill predict that this team early exercise/opt-out option setup gets used more frequently in the next 1-2 years.
prefered in addition to Britton.
Jon Heyman
Verified account @JonHeyman
Even with Yankees about to add Britton they are continuing to pursue Ottavino
Jon Heyman
Verified account @JonHeyman
Even with Yankees about to add Britton they are continuing to pursue Ottavino
Exactly what I said I thought they'd do...
Ottavino + Machado and we're in nice shape.
Quote:
Jon Heyman
Verified account @JonHeyman
Even with Yankees about to add Britton they are continuing to pursue Ottavino
Exactly what I said I thought they'd do...
Ottavino + Machado and we're in nice shape.
Agree. Sign those two and let the countdown to Tampa begin.
Worth the 3%. But I don't think DRob is as valuable as Britton at this point.
See what Ottavino gets. I'm guessing Kelly's #s - 3/$25 mill. Maybe $28 mill.
Quote:
Its smart to use an agent...
Worth the 3%. But I don't think DRob is as valuable as Britton at this point.
See what Ottavino gets. I'm guessing Kelly's #s - 3/$25 mill. Maybe $28 mill.
I think a bit more. Well see.
Quote:
In comment 14248943 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
Its smart to use an agent...
Worth the 3%. But I don't think DRob is as valuable as Britton at this point.
See what Ottavino gets. I'm guessing Kelly's #s - 3/$25 mill. Maybe $28 mill.
I think a bit more. Well see.
I'm guessing less than DRob or they could have had DRob. Unless Cash just didn't want him back??
This will wind up being great value.
This will wind up being great value.
I assume you mean bearish
Quote:
I've been sort of bullish on Britton - but I'd be willing to bet he has a better year than Robertson and possibly by a semi-fair margin, too.
This will wind up being great value.
I assume you mean bearish
?????
Quote:
I've been sort of bullish on Britton - but I'd be willing to bet he has a better year than Robertson and possibly by a semi-fair margin, too.
This will wind up being great value.
I assume you mean bearish
Bullish - I think Britton is going to have a really good year as long as he doesn't have any setbacks health-wise.
I'd say I'm midly "bearish" on Robertson, if anything.
This will wind up being great value.
2 off seasons from now, when Chapman is entering his final year and has presumably lost at least a little something, and weve just exercised 2 more years of 33 year old Britton for $25M total, it will all be crystal clear that Cashman had his head screwed in straight.
(Not to mention, further protection from the player options Chapman has in his deal, not to say that hed ever consider exercising them in FA markets as bearish as these).
Ill predict that this team early exercise/opt-out option setup gets used more frequently in the next 1-2 years.
Personally I think he'll be back to his old self and 100% healthy this year, and the Yanks will be picking up that option.
Quote:
I've been sort of bullish on Britton - but I'd be willing to bet he has a better year than Robertson and possibly by a semi-fair margin, too.
This will wind up being great value.
2 off seasons from now, when Chapman is entering his final year and has presumably lost at least a little something, and weve just exercised 2 more years of 33 year old Britton for $25M total, it will all be crystal clear that Cashman had his head screwed in straight.
(Not to mention, further protection from the player options Chapman has in his deal, not to say that hed ever consider exercising them in FA markets as bearish as these).
Ill predict that this team early exercise/opt-out option setup gets used more frequently in the next 1-2 years.
Don't forget that Betances is a FA after this season and Chapman has an opt out that he can exercise. This contract is insurance against either or both leaving.
Don't forget that Betances is a FA after this season and Chapman has an opt out that he can exercise. This contract is insurance against either or both leaving.
Yep, said that earlier and maybe another reason for Britton over DRob....
Stuff like this is what will ultimately make Hal sign off on spending to the LAD / BOS levels. Ability to pull the ripcords on some stuff is big.
Chapman 9th
Betances 8th
Britton 7th
Green 6th
Holder 5th
Tarpley - Lefty
Kahnle - Injured 2018, but 2017 was very good.
Long man - German, Adams, Acevedo or Cessa (out of options)
I don't see a high leverage spot open for an Ottavino type costing 10 million annually.
Chapman 9th
Betances 8th
Britton 7th
Green 6th
Holder 5th
Tarpley - Lefty
Kahnle - Injured 2018, but 2017 was very good.
Long man - German, Adams, Acevedo or Cessa (out of options)
I don't see a high leverage spot open for an Ottavino type costing 10 million annually.
You may be right, but Cash himself said they were getting 2 RPs this offseason. If Kahnle hadn't fallen off the table last year, they'd be done. German and Tarpley could be the final pieces.
The price for Ottavino is probably pretty much set now with Joe Kelly at the bottom end 3/$25 and Miller 2/$25 at the top. I think he will be closer to Kelly.
Interesting that the Sox haven't signed anyone to close. Sort of forces them to re-sign Kimbrell at closer to his price.
Betances is a FA at the end of the year. Chapman showed troubling signs last year ( certainly speaks to managing his workload).
As for optionality, mid year Trade value of one more RP to a playoff team is enormous.
We dont have Machado or Gray moved yet. We dont have Frazier established as playable or tradeable. We dont have Didi back and in shape. We dont have a rebound year from Sanchez yet. We dont have Severino fixed yet. We dont have a clear great prospect in Florial yet. With CC coming off surgery and his age, we dont have mid year pieces to trade.
When we did, we picked up a Kings Ransom for Chapman and Miller. Pulling that stunt off one more time if the pieces fall out way or not may be vital.
Given two years of optionality and all the other questionmarks, I think another proven reliever makes tons of sense.
If it all works then we have Frazier/Stanton, Andujar, Gray and a Rp singly or in bundles to trade for an ace or 1B.
When the delta between the upside of all those players mentioned above and their unproven downside is that large; optionality is like spending $9m to protect the upside of $200m over the next two years.
imo
They could go - Green, Betances, Chapman one night and
Holder, XX, Britton the next. They can mix and match Betances, Britton and Chapman to fight fatigue at closer or set up.
One more reputable BP arm just makes it comfortable, allows for rest so that come late August and September the major contributors aren't pushing 80 innings.
Ottavino, Herrera, etc ...finish the job
That may be what we trade over the next years until the next wave develops
The problem is with RP. Until they handle MLB pressure in real games they are flawed starters.
May mean its time for one of the guys we think is a mid inning or long reliever to move into the six man (German?)
Warren is a proven Yankee, well liked by teammates and coaches, plus has tremendous versatility as he can spot start, long man and play in high leverage spots when the pen is tired. Plus he would be only 1/3rd of the cost of the higher end FA guys still available.
The Yankees would probably have to give him a no trade clause after dealing him 2 times already - LOL.
However, one other thing to keep in mind before we go all in on the thesis that Hal is going to hinder the Yankees ability to compete:
One other way to compete if you have a ton of money is to play the long game and outlast Boston and the Astros.
For example:
1) Pouring even more coaching into the minors and international system so you can get guys to MLB faster and put an early shine on every prospect
2) Locking up non pitcher Judge early at an average annual $10M below market. Yes I know thats not recent practice but that idea was prominent when the yankees had league leading FA and payroll practices so injury risk was hedged to the last minute.
3) One more year in 2019 that looks like Judge's rookie year for a total draw and star coming to his peak years and an early lock up is a huge and sound advantage It frees up $10M per year for other things for a long time.
4) Im not sure I would lock up anyone else anytime soon, but that is a smart move the Yankees could make.
5) Many teams over spend and then have to take a lot of money back (Stanton and Tulo are examples) The Yankees are in a position to vulture pirate more bargains from a aggressively conservative position.
A hypothetical: Either or both Machado or Harper will sign with the Yankees or another team. One of them will be on a team where attendance goes down because of injuries to others or to a team with a poor pen or SP or minors and they will swing away on a losing team. Who can take them on (provided a Stanton like funding from the team that ran short)
The only natural built in very big attendance well run organization over the long haul is the Dodgers.
Not advocating they take this approach and I think they have too many question marks right now not to get Machado but it is not an automatic that Hal is being a tight wad. There will be an attendance/economic recession sooner or later and positioning matters
However, one other thing to keep in mind before we go all in on the thesis that Hal is going to hinder the Yankees ability to compete:
One other way to compete if you have a ton of money is to play the long game and outlast Boston and the Astros.
For example:
1) Pouring even more coaching into the minors and international system so you can get guys to MLB faster and put an early shine on every prospect
2) Locking up non pitcher Judge early at an average annual $10M below market. Yes I know thats not recent practice but that idea was prominent when the yankees had league leading FA and payroll practices so injury risk was hedged to the last minute.
3) One more year in 2019 that looks like Judge's rookie year for a total draw and star coming to his peak years and an early lock up is a huge and sound advantage It frees up $10M per year for other things for a long time.
4) Im not sure I would lock up anyone else anytime soon, but that is a smart move the Yankees could make.
5) Many teams over spend and then have to take a lot of money back (Stanton and Tulo are examples) The Yankees are in a position to vulture pirate more bargains from a aggressively conservative position.
A hypothetical: Either or both Machado or Harper will sign with the Yankees or another team. One of them will be on a team where attendance goes down because of injuries to others or to a team with a poor pen or SP or minors and they will swing away on a losing team. Who can take them on (provided a Stanton like funding from the team that ran short)
The only natural built in very big attendance well run organization over the long haul is the Dodgers.
Not advocating they take this approach and I think they have too many question marks right now not to get Machado but it is not an automatic that Hal is being a tight wad. There will be an attendance/economic recession sooner or later and positioning matters
Indians were able to lock up Carrasco/Kluber/Jose Ramirez for bargain contracts tried doing the same with Lindor. If Yankees did the same with Gleyber/Severino/Gary (after he shows improvement or now is a nice buy-low deal) they would set themselves in a much better position financially in future years.
Remember George never wanted to give extensions during current contracts. This ended up costing the Yankees a ton in the long run when re-upping Jeter/Posada/Mo and even ended up losing Pettitte to FA
Warren is a proven Yankee, well liked by teammates and coaches, plus has tremendous versatility as he can spot start, long man and play in high leverage spots when the pen is tired. Plus he would be only 1/3rd of the cost of the higher end FA guys still available.
The Yankees would probably have to give him a no trade clause after dealing him 2 times already - LOL.
No way JP. With all due respect, Warren was a mere shell of his former self last time. I think German would be a better long man at this point than Warren. He seemed a lot more vulnerable when he returned from the Cubbies.
I think we have differing views on what is needed to finish this BP. I wouldn't mind saving $$ for Manny and I wouldn't be upset if Cashman (or Hal) decides they have enough high end BP arms. I am fixated on multiple competent parts for finishing games. Between CC and Tanaka, they need enough parts to go 3 to 4 innings per in those games without killing the arms by mid-August. If they are looking at long relief, I'd stay with German over signing Warren (didn't know he was FA).
Realistically I think only Tarpley, German and maybe Adams have the best chances contributing at the big club this year out of the pen.
Realistically I think only Tarpley, German and maybe Adams have the best chances contributing at the big club this year out of the pen.
Hopefully Acevedo, too at some point. Hell be 25 by the time the season begins.
Quote:
Agree on allowing the younger arms space to grow and develop at the MLB level. I suggested Warren because Section stated that Cashman said NYY will look to bring in 2 RPs this off-season.
Realistically I think only Tarpley, German and maybe Adams have the best chances contributing at the big club this year out of the pen.
Hopefully Acevedo, too at some point. Hell be 25 by the time the season begins.
The arm is there no doubt Hoya, but Acevedo has only pitched 12 innings above AA and that was in 2017. I think he will begin the year at AA and move quickly to AAA and probably stay there for a good part of the season as a starter.
Quote:
I've been sort of bullish on Britton - but I'd be willing to bet he has a better year than Robertson and possibly by a semi-fair margin, too.
This will wind up being great value.
2 off seasons from now, when Chapman is entering his final year and has presumably lost at least a little something, and weve just exercised 2 more years of 33 year old Britton for $25M total, it will all be crystal clear that Cashman had his head screwed in straight.
(Not to mention, further protection from the player options Chapman has in his deal, not to say that hed ever consider exercising them in FA markets as bearish as these).
Ill predict that this team early exercise/opt-out option setup gets used more frequently in the next 1-2 years.
Good points - I agree!