Agree on allowing the younger arms space to grow and develop at the MLB level. I suggested Warren because Section stated that Cashman said NYY will look to bring in 2 RPs this off-season.
Realistically I think only Tarpley, German and maybe Adams have the best chances contributing at the big club this year out of the pen.
Hopefully Acevedo, too at some point. Hell be 25 by the time the season begins.
The arm is there no doubt Hoya, but Acevedo has only pitched 12 innings above AA and that was in 2017. I think he will begin the year at AA and move quickly to AAA and probably stay there for a good part of the season as a starter.
All true- but that was as a SP. Acevedo's big problem has been staying healthy. There were a LOT of rumors flying around at the end of the season that the Yanks were going to shift Avecedo to the pen in 2019.
Acevedo really does work in the high 90's as a SP, occasionally hitting 100. He also has a legit change-up, but only a developing slider. As a reliever, he could live with 2 pitches and ditch the slider.
In short- if the Yanks shifted him to the pen, he would probably not need to be in the minors long- he would only need to prove that he can stay healthy because the stuff is already quality.
It should also be noted that Acevedo has long been compared to Betances- and not just because both are large men over 6'7" and throw hard- but because of the contrast between the FB and the off-speed pitches. However, where Betances has always struggled with his command (we have seen numerous games where Betances can't find the strike zone or is hittable), scouts have long noted that Acevedo's command is much better than Betances.
Finally, with Betances being a FA at the end of the season, the Yanks might want to see if they have a ready replacement with Acevedo before the end of the season.
Is that the Yankees value flexibility with the last couple pen guys. If everyone is out of options they will struggle with short starts (every CC start) and double-headers. Adams, Tarpley and Acevedo all have options.
Include me among those who think Ottavino an unnecessary expense....
I think Ottavino is a good fit and I still think we have to add one more reliever. A lot of his success came when he scrapped his 4-seamer and went heavy on his sinker. Walk rate dropped, k rate jumped to 36% - it fits the Yanks approach with their pitchers in terms of focusing more on secondary offerings and being less FB-reliant.
I would rather get something for him now then lose him for nothing after the season. There's no guarantee we get the good Betances this year.
They won't lose him for nothing. The FA market for late inning relievers/closers next winter is almost non-existent. In fact, unless Chapman opts out, Betances will be the only strong reliever on the FA market.
Therefore, the Yanks would almost certainly make him a tender offer, which he would turn down as he would stand to make closer money on a multi-year deal.
However, since the Yanks are likely not only to end up spending over the luxury tax line, they would likely only net a 4th round pick for Betances (much like the Sox will get for Kimbrell and the Nats for Harper).
Its not "nothing," but it also does not give them a ML reayd useful asset.
I would also note that I am sure that Chapman's agent has noted the reliever weakness in next year's market- and if Chapman can stay healthy and effective, he might opt out.
Thus, the Britton deal was important to give the Yanks options in 2020.
makes sense if the Yankees add Ottavino. How much is a qualifying offer going to be next year after Harper and Machado sign mega deals?
What can trading Betances bring the Yankees now? It has to be substantially more than a 4th round draft pick if he turns down a qualifying offer. Do the Yankees even offer one to him?
How do you know they aren't planning to re-sign him? Why would you weaken your bullpen before the season? Sometimes you need to take your players, play the games and deal with next year, next year.
signing Ottavino a Fwar 2.0 relief pitcher last year is a bad idea?
We should be signing Ottavino and keeping Betances. I'm not that skeptical about Ottavino because I understand why he was so much better last year (I posted it earlier) - he made actual changes to his approach, pitch usage, and the way he trains, etc. So I think it's probably mostly sustainable. If there's any regression, it should be marginal.
Betances has a better track record and is a guy we know we can trust in the 8th. 2.36 career ERA and 2.32 career FIP in 381 innings. If we're trying to win a World Series now, Betances helps us get closer.
Many here expect the Yankees to resign Betances and I severely doubt they do that. They won't give him what he'll ask for and like Robertson before he's going to take the best offer elsewhere with the Yankees not extending him a qualifying offer.
I do believe Betances to have great trade value especially to a team he might not want to play for long term. A team that can risk offering a qualifying offer that he will likely turn down. A team that will get better than a 4th round pick.
Right now the Yankees have Britton and Green as established back end relievers under team control for 2020. Betances will be free agent and Chapman with a big year most likely will opt out. Adding Ottavino now and trading Betances give the Yankees pen continuity going forward which is important for team building.
Now the question is what can the Yankees get for 1 year of Betances at maybe 7 million? The Yankees did very well in the past selling both Chapman and Miller. If say the Rockies lose Ottavino would they be interested in Betances? Would they give up Garrett Hampson plus?
I want the Yankees to maximize value instead of giving it away for free if Betances leaves as a free agent. I don't think there is all that much difference if the Yankees swap out Betances for Ottavino this season plus we get some 2020 security for the pen as well.
will get more than we can or should pay him. He's a fantastic reliever when he's right, but he can lose it for long stretches. Plus we have a lot invested in the pen, and we'll have other spending priorities in the next few years.
will get more than we can or should pay him. He's a fantastic reliever when he's right, but he can lose it for long stretches. Plus we have a lot invested in the pen, and we'll have other spending priorities in the next few years.
Keep in mind that Betances and his agent have butted heads with the Yanks over salary before. When Betances hits FA, he is going highest bidder- and that's not likely to be the Yanks.
Remember, unless Chapman opts out of his deal, Betances is going to be the best reliever on the FA market next winter. That means some closer hungry team is going to pay him like one. The going rate is now between $15-17M, depending on the years. Kimbrel is still on the market because his agent got greedy and was demanding 6 years- and teams appear to be unwilling to go more than 3.
Even if the yankees have no plans to resign Betances
regardless of whether or not Chapman opts out, I still wouldn't trade him now. If the pen is fully healthy, they sign Ottavino who pitches like he did last year and Britton returns to his pre-injury self I might consider it at the deadline but they're legitimate contenders this year and a year of Betances could go a long way towards that goal if he's on his game, especially if Chapman's knee flares up and/or Britton is solid but unspectacular (like last year).
RE: Even if the yankees have no plans to resign Betances
regardless of whether or not Chapman opts out, I still wouldn't trade him now. If the pen is fully healthy, they sign Ottavino who pitches like he did last year and Britton returns to his pre-injury self I might consider it at the deadline but they're legitimate contenders this year and a year of Betances could go a long way towards that goal if he's on his game, especially if Chapman's knee flares up and/or Britton is solid but unspectacular (like last year).
This.
If Betances walks, so be it.
The Yanks are trying to win a World Series now - they shouldn't make any trades that make the MLB team weaker.
Not only that - but it repeats the same issue as there was the last time people were talking about trying to deal him.
If you're looking at dealing Betances at the deadline, the pool of potential suitors will be limited to teams in the postseason hunt.
Since NYY won't want to help any AL teams, they are obviously not going to deal Betances to a team they may need to beat to get to the WS. That limits their potential suitors to NL teams with postseason aspirations.
So, if you want to swing a trade mid-season with him, you're going to be dealing with limited options in terms of teams who will be interested and willing to give up good compensation.
NYY should be looking to keep Dellin and add Ottavino.
NYY extends Betances. I want him to stay a Yankee.
Agreed. A New York guy who grew up in the system and is a true Yankee. He's a guy I'd love to keep. Not to mention he's our best reliever when he's on.
Did Cashman plan out his initial remarks about trading him or did he uncharacteristically say something dumb that maybe he doesnt want to see through right now? Lets just say they cant get the return for Gray that they want in a trade and hes on the Yanks this whole year. Hes a UFA in 2020 and what if, by some minor miracle, he is able to have a really nice bounce back year and ditch whatever mental issues hes had so far in NY and is able to ignore the fact that his organization publicly thinks hes a lousy player? Theres no chance he sticks around in 2020 after these shenanigans. In all likelihood this doesnt play out anywhere near as speculated, but even if theres a slim chance, Cashman has squashed any potential of Gray with this club going forward. What was the point?
I think he's traded within the next few weeks, if nothing other than to get NYY back under the Hal tax threshold again (unless Machado is signed and they are for sure blowing past it). Cots has the Yankees at 207M after the Britton signing. Gray is projected to count 9M for 2019.
Reliever Kelvin Herrera and the Chicago White Sox are in agreement on a two-year, $18 million deal with a vesting third-year option, sources tell ESPN.
The #Yankees are either playing it coy, trying to gauge the Andujar trade market, or simply have no intention of offering Manny Machado a $200 million-plus contract. The Chicago #WhiteSox and Philadelphia #Phillies remain the most aggressive teams for the prized infielder.
Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) January 7, 2019
Nightengale is the hackiest hack who has ever hacked...
I don't buy that shit for a second. Doesn't mean they're all in, but little to nothing he says tips the scales.
One of us is guilty of wishful thinking because I think the whole Machado pursuit was a bluff to bring Harper to the table at a more reasonable price. As bluffs go, it doesn't seem to be working. But maybe this is all about me preferring Harper to Machado by a wide margin (and thus assuming the Yankees see it as I do).
RE: If they didn't offer Machado a 200+ million contract, what could they
I just don't think Nightengale does/did either. It wouldn't shock me if they did sign him, but it wouldn't shock me if he went somewhere else and it came out that the Yankees never made a serious offer to him.
Harper signing with NYY would shock me. Stanton level of shock. I just can't see them paying what Ted Lerner seems willing to pay for a guy with a fantastic offensive skillset but one that is duplicative of what the Yankees already have on the roster twice over. Yeah handedness, but I can't see the Yanks valuing that at $300 mil plus, especially with a luxury tax bill on top of that.
The #Phillies are making it clear to marquee free-agent starter Patrick Corbin that they won't be out-bid, and teams still in the hunt for Corbin's services realize it, too.
RE: RE: If they didn't offer Machado a 200+ million contract, what could they
I could be dead wrong, but I don't see him accepting anything below 7 years (and only that length with the Yankees) or 29 million AAV unless it's 9-10 year deal.
I just assumed the Yanks were willing to go 203-210 million.
Harper signing with NYY would shock me. Stanton level of shock. I just can't see them paying what Ted Lerner seems willing to pay for a guy with a fantastic offensive skillset but one that is duplicative of what the Yankees already have on the roster twice over. Yeah handedness, but I can't see the Yanks valuing that at $300 mil plus, especially with a luxury tax bill on top of that.
I think it will come down to how badly Harper wants to be a Yankee. I don't know a lot about him, but he strikes me as a weird dude, given his Mormon affiliation and the fact that he doesn't drink booze but "admits" to drinking coffee. Someone like that with his sense of history is more likely to say to Boros, "your job is to get me a deal with the Yankees for the most amount of money possible....but it has to be with the Yankees." And so the Yankees only need to be in the "ballpark" of what the Senators--excuse me, the Nationals--offer. Of course if the Yankees aren't even close, Harper may consider it an insult and say fuck the Yankees.
p.s.--Don't know if it's meaningful, but in a gameshow style Q&A session, Boros was asked what's the best stadium to visit and he answered, Yankee Stadium. You have to believe that he wants his most valued client playing in the media capital of the solar system (if not the Univese!).
but I can't see them in on a guy with a redundant skillset anywhere near that price. And other than the "fully operational death star" crack, there hasn't been a scintilla of a whisper of a rumor suggesting the Yankees are actually in on him. Could Boras really maintain that level of radio silence?
In fact, sources within the Yankees organization tell me the expected range for a Machado deal will be between $220 million and $270 million, probably for no more than seven years, and there is no guarantee the Yankees will be in if the numbers wind up in the upper half of that range. And the Yankees signing of Troy Tulowitzki last week seems like an insurance policy in case they decide to bow out on Manny. Yainee could lead Manny Machado to the Yankees. Yainee could lead Manny Machado to the Yankees.
But there is hope, Yankee fans. According to another source, who knows Machado well, there is a wild-card to this negotiation who might tip the balance toward the Bronx: Machados wife, Yainee.
According to the source, Yainee Machado who is the sister of Yonder Alonso, the first baseman recently traded to the Chicago White Sox, one of the teams Machado visited on his sales tour is enamored of New York City and very much would like to live here.
Harper signing with NYY would shock me. Stanton level of shock. I just can't see them paying what Ted Lerner seems willing to pay for a guy with a fantastic offensive skillset but one that is duplicative of what the Yankees already have on the roster twice over. Yeah handedness, but I can't see the Yanks valuing that at $300 mil plus, especially with a luxury tax bill on top of that.
I think it will come down to how badly Harper wants to be a Yankee. I don't know a lot about him, but he strikes me as a weird dude, given his Mormon affiliation and the fact that he doesn't drink booze but "admits" to drinking coffee. Someone like that with his sense of history is more likely to say to Boros, "your job is to get me a deal with the Yankees for the most amount of money possible....but it has to be with the Yankees." And so the Yankees only need to be in the "ballpark" of what the Senators--excuse me, the Nationals--offer. Of course if the Yankees aren't even close, Harper may consider it an insult and say fuck the Yankees.
p.s.--Don't know if it's meaningful, but in a gameshow style Q&A session, Boros was asked what's the best stadium to visit and he answered, Yankee Stadium. You have to believe that he wants his most valued client playing in the media capital of the solar system (if not the Univese!).
We get it- you've been fixated on Harper forever and are REALLY having trouble letting go of it.
He's going back to the Nats- for a LOT more money than the Yanks will offer.
Milton often has trouble letting go of his "guy" once he's identified him. Bryce Harper is the new Josh Rosen... just a much more accomplished and expensive version playing a different sport. :)
Milton often has trouble letting go of his "guy" once he's identified him. Bryce Harper is the new Josh Rosen... just a much more accomplished and expensive version playing a different sport. :)
I was also all-in on Gerrit Cole going way back to June 2017 when there was first talk that he might be available at the trading deadline. And then after all the talk last hot stove that a trade was imminent and it was just a matter of when, not if. And then of course the Astros swooped in and got him for what looked like a bargain price to me. "Maybe this time I'll be lucky" - ( New Window )
Robertson is a better reliever than Britton and will be for the length of the contract. I love Mike, but he is absolutely nuts. Said you need to squint to see decline in Robertson last year. Again, he is nuts. Over the last 1/3 of the season you could see Dave lost a bit of control. I will say if the curve was snapping off, he was good. But sometimes he got hammered. Britton never got hammered. He was sloppy a time or two.
That said I wanted DRob back along with Britton. But I wanted Britton 1st. To me Ottavino is a 33 y/o 1 year wonder.
Robertson is a better reliever than Britton and will be for the length of the contract. I love Mike, but he is absolutely nuts. Said you need to squint to see decline in Robertson last year. Again, he is nuts. Over the last 1/3 of the season you could see Dave lost a bit of control. I will say if the curve was snapping off, he was good. But sometimes he got hammered. Britton never got hammered. He was sloppy a time or two.
That said I wanted DRob back along with Britton. But I wanted Britton 1st. To me Ottavino is a 33 y/o 1 year wonder.
Thoughts? RAB - ( New Window )
I agree. Don't get the Ottavino obsession. I'd like the signing probably but I'd rather DRob over Ottavino and I agree with you that DRob look descendent.
Quote:
In comment 14249516 JPinstripes said:
Quote:
Agree on allowing the younger arms space to grow and develop at the MLB level. I suggested Warren because Section stated that Cashman said NYY will look to bring in 2 RPs this off-season.
Realistically I think only Tarpley, German and maybe Adams have the best chances contributing at the big club this year out of the pen.
Hopefully Acevedo, too at some point. Hell be 25 by the time the season begins.
The arm is there no doubt Hoya, but Acevedo has only pitched 12 innings above AA and that was in 2017. I think he will begin the year at AA and move quickly to AAA and probably stay there for a good part of the season as a starter.
All true- but that was as a SP. Acevedo's big problem has been staying healthy. There were a LOT of rumors flying around at the end of the season that the Yanks were going to shift Avecedo to the pen in 2019.
Acevedo really does work in the high 90's as a SP, occasionally hitting 100. He also has a legit change-up, but only a developing slider. As a reliever, he could live with 2 pitches and ditch the slider.
In short- if the Yanks shifted him to the pen, he would probably not need to be in the minors long- he would only need to prove that he can stay healthy because the stuff is already quality.
It should also be noted that Acevedo has long been compared to Betances- and not just because both are large men over 6'7" and throw hard- but because of the contrast between the FB and the off-speed pitches. However, where Betances has always struggled with his command (we have seen numerous games where Betances can't find the strike zone or is hittable), scouts have long noted that Acevedo's command is much better than Betances.
Finally, with Betances being a FA at the end of the season, the Yanks might want to see if they have a ready replacement with Acevedo before the end of the season.
Britton
Green
Holder
three more openings, no?
Yeah, there you go. Get rid of Betances on the verge of a World Series run.
Or you could re-sign him.
They won't lose him for nothing. The FA market for late inning relievers/closers next winter is almost non-existent. In fact, unless Chapman opts out, Betances will be the only strong reliever on the FA market.
Therefore, the Yanks would almost certainly make him a tender offer, which he would turn down as he would stand to make closer money on a multi-year deal.
However, since the Yanks are likely not only to end up spending over the luxury tax line, they would likely only net a 4th round pick for Betances (much like the Sox will get for Kimbrell and the Nats for Harper).
Its not "nothing," but it also does not give them a ML reayd useful asset.
I would also note that I am sure that Chapman's agent has noted the reliever weakness in next year's market- and if Chapman can stay healthy and effective, he might opt out.
Thus, the Britton deal was important to give the Yanks options in 2020.
What can trading Betances bring the Yankees now? It has to be substantially more than a 4th round draft pick if he turns down a qualifying offer. Do the Yankees even offer one to him?
What is the fWAR lifetime and Betances is 3 years younger?
We should be signing Ottavino and keeping Betances. I'm not that skeptical about Ottavino because I understand why he was so much better last year (I posted it earlier) - he made actual changes to his approach, pitch usage, and the way he trains, etc. So I think it's probably mostly sustainable. If there's any regression, it should be marginal.
Betances has a better track record and is a guy we know we can trust in the 8th. 2.36 career ERA and 2.32 career FIP in 381 innings. If we're trying to win a World Series now, Betances helps us get closer.
Many here expect the Yankees to resign Betances and I severely doubt they do that. They won't give him what he'll ask for and like Robertson before he's going to take the best offer elsewhere with the Yankees not extending him a qualifying offer.
I do believe Betances to have great trade value especially to a team he might not want to play for long term. A team that can risk offering a qualifying offer that he will likely turn down. A team that will get better than a 4th round pick.
Right now the Yankees have Britton and Green as established back end relievers under team control for 2020. Betances will be free agent and Chapman with a big year most likely will opt out. Adding Ottavino now and trading Betances give the Yankees pen continuity going forward which is important for team building.
Now the question is what can the Yankees get for 1 year of Betances at maybe 7 million? The Yankees did very well in the past selling both Chapman and Miller. If say the Rockies lose Ottavino would they be interested in Betances? Would they give up Garrett Hampson plus?
I want the Yankees to maximize value instead of giving it away for free if Betances leaves as a free agent. I don't think there is all that much difference if the Yankees swap out Betances for Ottavino this season plus we get some 2020 security for the pen as well.
Keep in mind that Betances and his agent have butted heads with the Yanks over salary before. When Betances hits FA, he is going highest bidder- and that's not likely to be the Yanks.
Remember, unless Chapman opts out of his deal, Betances is going to be the best reliever on the FA market next winter. That means some closer hungry team is going to pay him like one. The going rate is now between $15-17M, depending on the years. Kimbrel is still on the market because his agent got greedy and was demanding 6 years- and teams appear to be unwilling to go more than 3.
This.
If Betances walks, so be it.
The Yanks are trying to win a World Series now - they shouldn't make any trades that make the MLB team weaker.
Not only that - but it repeats the same issue as there was the last time people were talking about trying to deal him.
If you're looking at dealing Betances at the deadline, the pool of potential suitors will be limited to teams in the postseason hunt.
Since NYY won't want to help any AL teams, they are obviously not going to deal Betances to a team they may need to beat to get to the WS. That limits their potential suitors to NL teams with postseason aspirations.
So, if you want to swing a trade mid-season with him, you're going to be dealing with limited options in terms of teams who will be interested and willing to give up good compensation.
NYY should be looking to keep Dellin and add Ottavino.
Link below.
COTS Yankees 2019 Payroll - January 7, 2019 - ( New Window )
Verified account @JeffPassan
Reliever Kelvin Herrera and the Chicago White Sox are in agreement on a two-year, $18 million deal with a vesting third-year option, sources tell ESPN.
Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) January 7, 2019
It's very possible that the Yankees haven't made a formal offer.
The only seemingly confirmed offer to Machado is from the White Sox as reported a couple of days ago by Nightengale.
Harper signing with NYY would shock me. Stanton level of shock. I just can't see them paying what Ted Lerner seems willing to pay for a guy with a fantastic offensive skillset but one that is duplicative of what the Yankees already have on the roster twice over. Yeah handedness, but I can't see the Yanks valuing that at $300 mil plus, especially with a luxury tax bill on top of that.
5 years/$150M, 6 years/$174M, 7 years/$196M
I could be dead wrong, but I don't see him accepting anything below 7 years (and only that length with the Yankees) or 29 million AAV unless it's 9-10 year deal.
I just assumed the Yanks were willing to go 203-210 million.
12:17 AM - 9 Dec 2017
12:17 AM - 9 Dec 2017
Hahahahahahaha. Good one, thanks!
Harper signing with NYY would shock me. Stanton level of shock. I just can't see them paying what Ted Lerner seems willing to pay for a guy with a fantastic offensive skillset but one that is duplicative of what the Yankees already have on the roster twice over. Yeah handedness, but I can't see the Yanks valuing that at $300 mil plus, especially with a luxury tax bill on top of that.
p.s.--Don't know if it's meaningful, but in a gameshow style Q&A session, Boros was asked what's the best stadium to visit and he answered, Yankee Stadium. You have to believe that he wants his most valued client playing in the media capital of the solar system (if not the Univese!).
12:17 AM - 9 Dec 2017
Ummm- except that is exactly what happened- the Marlins took back Starlin Castro's bad deal to keep the Yanks below the luxury tax line.
A bad deal would have been Ellsbury.
Quote:
The #Yankees want to get under $197 million luxury cap so unless #Marlins take on Yankees bad contracts, Giancarlo Stanton is not coming
12:17 AM - 9 Dec 2017
Ummm- except that is exactly what happened- the Marlins took back Starlin Castro's bad deal to keep the Yanks below the luxury tax line.
Nightengale downplayed the possibility of a deal AS IT WAS HAPPENING because he didn't want to have to re-write a piece that was getting ready to run.
But there is hope, Yankee fans. According to another source, who knows Machado well, there is a wild-card to this negotiation who might tip the balance toward the Bronx: Machados wife, Yainee.
According to the source, Yainee Machado who is the sister of Yonder Alonso, the first baseman recently traded to the Chicago White Sox, one of the teams Machado visited on his sales tour is enamored of New York City and very much would like to live here.
Matthews: Why Manny Machado's wife, Yainee, could lead star to Yankees - ( New Window )
Quote:
Harper signing with NYY would shock me. Stanton level of shock. I just can't see them paying what Ted Lerner seems willing to pay for a guy with a fantastic offensive skillset but one that is duplicative of what the Yankees already have on the roster twice over. Yeah handedness, but I can't see the Yanks valuing that at $300 mil plus, especially with a luxury tax bill on top of that.
I think it will come down to how badly Harper wants to be a Yankee. I don't know a lot about him, but he strikes me as a weird dude, given his Mormon affiliation and the fact that he doesn't drink booze but "admits" to drinking coffee. Someone like that with his sense of history is more likely to say to Boros, "your job is to get me a deal with the Yankees for the most amount of money possible....but it has to be with the Yankees." And so the Yankees only need to be in the "ballpark" of what the Senators--excuse me, the Nationals--offer. Of course if the Yankees aren't even close, Harper may consider it an insult and say fuck the Yankees.
p.s.--Don't know if it's meaningful, but in a gameshow style Q&A session, Boros was asked what's the best stadium to visit and he answered, Yankee Stadium. You have to believe that he wants his most valued client playing in the media capital of the solar system (if not the Univese!).
We get it- you've been fixated on Harper forever and are REALLY having trouble letting go of it.
He's going back to the Nats- for a LOT more money than the Yanks will offer.
"Maybe this time I'll be lucky" - ( New Window )
That said I wanted DRob back along with Britton. But I wanted Britton 1st. To me Ottavino is a 33 y/o 1 year wonder.
Thoughts?
RAB - ( New Window )
That said I wanted DRob back along with Britton. But I wanted Britton 1st. To me Ottavino is a 33 y/o 1 year wonder.
Thoughts? RAB - ( New Window )
I agree. Don't get the Ottavino obsession. I'd like the signing probably but I'd rather DRob over Ottavino and I agree with you that DRob look descendent.