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The Giants offensive analysis no one is talking about.....

sxdxca : 1/6/2019 12:10 am
I believe Pat Shurmur is on to something.

In the first 8 games of the season, the Giants were 1-7, and they averaged 18.75 ppg on Offense

However in the next 8 games, the Giants went 4-4, and averaged 27.4 ppg on Offense.

What was the difference offensively?

Some will say the offensive line, and I would agree. However I believe there is another factor not being considered.

Notice these numbers in the beginning of the year.

Against the Cowboys Week 2

The Giants had 69 total snaps on offense. Shurmur had Manning in Shotgun formation 56 times, or 81% of the time.

He only had Manning under center 13 times, or 18% of the time. The Giants scored 13 points.

By keeping Manning in Shotgun formation so much, it eliminated the play action and rolling him out.

Against the Saints week 4, and Jaguars week 1, the results were similar with Manning in Shotgun formation some 68% of the time.

Now notice the difference against the Colts week 15.

Giants had 66 total snaps on offense. Shurmur does the opposite, he has Manning "under center", instead of shotgun 45 times, or 68% of the time.

He only had Manning in Shotgun formation 21 times, or 31% of the time. The Giants scored 27 points.

Similar results against Washington week 13. Manning was under center 55% of the time, and the Giants scored 40 points.

It took him a while to figure it out, but by keeping Manning "under center", it allowed for more creativity, and kept the defenses honest, instead of just teeing off on the QB.

I believe whoever the QB is next year, this will be the formula going forward...

Sxdxca
QBs under center....  
BillKo : 1/6/2019 12:31 am : link
...is quickly becoming extinct.

I am just amazed at teams getting 1st and goal inside the five and immediately going to shotgun.

Under center gives you so many more options IMO.
Interesting stats  
Vanzetti : 1/6/2019 12:35 am : link
However, I think it is a little bit cause and effect with the OL. Eli was in shotgun so much initially because the OL and could not block anyone
Glad Sxdxca  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 1/6/2019 12:37 am : link
Is here to set us all straight
Research time  
adamg : 1/6/2019 12:39 am : link
.
Consider as well  
GeorgeAdams33 : 1/6/2019 12:43 am : link
We were in 11 personnel a lot early in the season and Engram was being used as the primary Tight End. They slowly began to us Ellison more and more as they realized that they needed to get the defense to tighten up so that we could throw the ball effectively we went more 2-TE 21 personnel. After Engram got hurt Simonson started to screw up less and make plays more often when called upon. When Engram came back they seemed to use him a bit more as a downfield threat and he began to shine. He gained confidence and the coaches gained confidence in him. Credit Eli for sticking with him.

We went through a process at Fullback that included the discovery that Shane Smith sucked and then a time period where we had to let Elijah Penny learn the offense and earn himself some playing time. He did just that. I am looking forward to seeing him progress next season. If the Giants can continue to improve the blocking from the blue collar no name guys while building a real NFL Offensive Line we might get back to respectability while earning a reputation as a physical offensive team.
these guys are so-called professionals  
SHO'NUFF : 1/6/2019 4:37 am : link
yet BBI has been calling that out for a couple of seasons... it only took Shurmur half the season to stop making the same mistake as McAdoo? There was one game early on where Shurmur had Eli going with the rollouts and such, but inexplicably went away from it in the next few games.
nice job  
Allen in CNJ : 1/6/2019 6:40 am : link
and I agree 100% with your sentiments.
Hate to be Debbie Downer  
Chris L. : 1/6/2019 8:26 am : link
but I keep hearing about the great offensive numbers over the second half of the season and how that means we are going to be good offensively next year. The thing I don't here people acknowledge was that in the second half of the season we played a much easier schedule. There were several games where we played teams (Bears and Washington come to mind) that did not have their QB's. When we played a decent team (the Cowboys) on the last game of the season they sat some of their most important players and still beat us in our building. This is going to keep repeating itself until the talent level of this team gets a lot better starting with the QB position (I love Eli but it is over).
RE: Hate to be Debbie Downer  
Eli Wilson : 1/6/2019 8:34 am : link
In comment 14249389 Chris L. said:
Quote:
but I keep hearing about the great offensive numbers over the second half of the season and how that means we are going to be good offensively next year. The thing I don't here people acknowledge was that in the second half of the season we played a much easier schedule. There were several games where we played teams (Bears and Washington come to mind) that did not have their QB's. When we played a decent team (the Cowboys) on the last game of the season they sat some of their most important players and still beat us in our building. This is going to keep repeating itself until the talent level of this team gets a lot better starting with the QB position (I love Eli but it is over).


How does the other teams starting QB impact our offense?
Paragraphs  
dep026 : 1/6/2019 8:35 am : link
are your friend.
So in other words  
dep026 : 1/6/2019 8:37 am : link
when the Giants are close, playing competitive games.... we run the ball and use play action more.

In games which we were trailing and forced to pass... we ran less and didnt use play action as much.

amirite? Sometimes research fails the OP and he doesnt even know it.
Eli  
Chris L. : 1/6/2019 8:44 am : link
when the other team doesn't have its QB you keep getting the ball back because their offense is limited
Sxdxca  
Mike from Ohio : 1/6/2019 8:49 am : link
You should really look up the difference between analysis and stat regurgitation. You are doing the latter, not the former. That is why nobody is talking about it. It is completely meaningless.
The Giants kept getting the ball back in the Dallas game  
JCin332 : 1/6/2019 8:49 am : link
when the defense gave up 36 points...?

How about the Colts when they allowed 28...?

Oh you mean the Bears when they gave up 27...?

Or when Tampa Bay scored 35..?
JCIN  
Chris L. : 1/6/2019 8:56 am : link
the point is we beat the 49's, the Bucs and the Bears (no QB) and Redskins (no QB). The improved offense didn't get a single win against a decent team in the second half of the season
You cannot win with a defense giving up this amount of points...  
JCin332 : 1/6/2019 8:59 am : link
this is football 101...

The offense after the bye week was not the problem...
RE: Paragraphs  
section125 : 1/6/2019 9:02 am : link
In comment 14249397 dep026 said:
Quote:
are your friend.


"amirite" is this a mineral?

Or

Am I right?

correct words are your friend too....
RE: RE: Hate to be Debbie Downer  
giantstock : 1/6/2019 9:04 am : link
In comment 14249396 Eli Wilson said:
Quote:
In comment 14249389 Chris L. said:


Quote:


but I keep hearing about the great offensive numbers over the second half of the season and how that means we are going to be good offensively next year. The thing I don't here people acknowledge was that in the second half of the season we played a much easier schedule. There were several games where we played teams (Bears and Washington come to mind) that did not have their QB's. When we played a decent team (the Cowboys) on the last game of the season they sat some of their most important players and still beat us in our building. This is going to keep repeating itself until the talent level of this team gets a lot better starting with the QB position (I love Eli but it is over).



How does the other teams starting QB impact our offense?


are you serious? Im not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone on this thread but if you've been watching football long enough you must've seen what the giants did to Buffalo Bills offense in SUper Bowl by running the ball, right?

without the other team having their top QB they don't control the ball as much, the Gmens defense as bad as it is has less to worry about, and the Gmen aren't likely to get as behind as much, or feel as much pressure to score right away.

And the Gmen are likely ot get some critical turnovers from a 2nd string QB or the 2nd string QB won't move the ball as well thus field position for the Giants offense can be better.

**There's a reason why the QB position is regarded as the most important position on the field.
I just  
mittenedman : 1/6/2019 9:34 am : link
don't understand what took him so long to figure it out.

That said, we are definitely onto something running an old school play action scheme. There is no defense for it, and there never will be.

Everything in the NFL is cyclical. Defenses that are getting smaller and faster in the back 7 and on the edges (build to defend the spread) are susceptible to a power running/play action scheme.
You canít run play action and roll the QB out in shotgun?  
ajr2456 : 1/6/2019 10:31 am : link
Thatís news to the rest of the league that spends 62% of snaps in shotgun.
RE: You cannot win with a defense giving up this amount of points...  
ajr2456 : 1/6/2019 10:33 am : link
In comment 14249417 JCin332 said:
Quote:
this is football 101...

The offense after the bye week was not the problem...


What about before the bye when they were 1-7 and the defense wasnít giving up 30 ppg?

You know before they traded Snacks and before Collins went out.
The defense allowed 25/game in the first half  
JCin332 : 1/6/2019 11:26 am : link
and just under 26/game in the 2nd half...virtually no difference...

You cannot win with those numbers...

You also canít win when  
ajr2456 : 1/6/2019 11:33 am : link
Your defense gives up

20 and you score 15 and 13.

23 and you score 20.

20 and you score 13.

17 and you score 0.

Thatís 5 games the defense did itís job and they lost. The defense also held the Saints to 19 points through three quarters and the offense only put 18 for the whole game and put the defense in compromised spots, so really 6 games.

Split those and the Giants are 8-8. The offense was just as much of an issue as the defense and the season was over already by the time the defense fully fell apart.
Source?  
Josh in MD : 1/6/2019 11:34 am : link
Quote:
You should really look up the difference between analysis and stat regurgitation.

Where would we look this up?

I think the OP's argument is interesting, but giving us figures for two cherry picked games in the first half and two in the second half is not convincing. What are the overall numbers for first half vs. second half?
RE: Source?  
ajr2456 : 1/6/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14249603 Josh in MD said:
Quote:


Quote:


You should really look up the difference between analysis and stat regurgitation.


Where would we look this up?

I think the OP's argument is interesting, but giving us figures for two cherry picked games in the first half and two in the second half is not convincing. What are the overall numbers for first half vs. second half?


Iím it sure if any where charts PA percentage by game and under center vs shotgun.

Knowing how much they ran PA under center vs shotgun and the success rate in each individual game would make those stats meaningful. Otherwise theyíre just numbers thrown to the wall.
Interesting Information  
ZogZerg : 1/6/2019 11:39 am : link
Nice Job
You also can't play better defense by not selecting defensive  
Jimmy Googs : 1/6/2019 11:40 am : link
players with your top picks and/or trading them away. The blame game of Offensive vs Defense is a waste of time since they have fatal flaws on both sides based on decisions the FO has made.

stop with the agenda-driven nonsense...
RE: Eli  
Photoguy : 1/6/2019 11:51 am : link
In comment 14249405 Chris L. said:
Quote:
when the other team doesn't have its QB you keep getting the ball back because their offense is limited



Maybe so, but your offense STILL has to move the ball and score. The Bears defense didn't mail it in, nor did anyone else outside of the Redskins.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/6/2019 12:53 pm : link
RESEARCH!!!!!
RE: RE: Hate to be Debbie Downer  
gmenatlarge : 1/6/2019 12:57 pm : link
In comment 14249396 Eli Wilson said:
Quote:
In comment 14249389 Chris L. said:


Quote:


but I keep hearing about the great offensive numbers over the second half of the season and how that means we are going to be good offensively next year. The thing I don't here people acknowledge was that in the second half of the season we played a much easier schedule. There were several games where we played teams (Bears and Washington come to mind) that did not have their QB's. When we played a decent team (the Cowboys) on the last game of the season they sat some of their most important players and still beat us in our building. This is going to keep repeating itself until the talent level of this team gets a lot better starting with the QB position (I love Eli but it is over).



How does the other teams starting QB impact our offense?


It absolutely does, if the other team is going three and out or losing the field position battle, your offense is getting better and more opportunities. Also your own defense could be fresher and more effective later in the game. Football is a symbiotic game what oneís teamís offense is able to do will affect their defense, for instance if you go three and out a couple of times in a row you will wear your own defense out, e.g.
RE: RE: RE: Hate to be Debbie Downer  
JOrthman : 1/6/2019 1:52 pm : link
In comment 14249734 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
In comment 14249396 Eli Wilson said:


Quote:


In comment 14249389 Chris L. said:


Quote:


but I keep hearing about the great offensive numbers over the second half of the season and how that means we are going to be good offensively next year. The thing I don't here people acknowledge was that in the second half of the season we played a much easier schedule. There were several games where we played teams (Bears and Washington come to mind) that did not have their QB's. When we played a decent team (the Cowboys) on the last game of the season they sat some of their most important players and still beat us in our building. This is going to keep repeating itself until the talent level of this team gets a lot better starting with the QB position (I love Eli but it is over).



How does the other teams starting QB impact our offense?



It absolutely does, if the other team is going three and out or losing the field position battle, your offense is getting better and more opportunities. Also your own defense could be fresher and more effective later in the game. Football is a symbiotic game what oneís teamís offense is able to do will affect their defense, for instance if you go three and out a couple of times in a row you will wear your own defense out, e.g.


That point would work if they Bears weren't scoring or moving the ball. They put up 27 points.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Hate to be Debbie Downer  
gmenatlarge : 1/6/2019 2:33 pm : link
In comment 14249835 JOrthman said:
Quote:
In comment 14249734 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


In comment 14249396 Eli Wilson said:


Quote:


In comment 14249389 Chris L. said:


Quote:


but I keep hearing about the great offensive numbers over the second half of the season and how that means we are going to be good offensively next year. The thing I don't here people acknowledge was that in the second half of the season we played a much easier schedule. There were several games where we played teams (Bears and Washington come to mind) that did not have their QB's. When we played a decent team (the Cowboys) on the last game of the season they sat some of their most important players and still beat us in our building. This is going to keep repeating itself until the talent level of this team gets a lot better starting with the QB position (I love Eli but it is over).



How does the other teams starting QB impact our offense?



It absolutely does, if the other team is going three and out or losing the field position battle, your offense is getting better and more opportunities. Also your own defense could be fresher and more effective later in the game. Football is a symbiotic game what oneís teamís offense is able to do will affect their defense, for instance if you go three and out a couple of times in a row you will wear your own defense out, e.g.



That point would work if they Bears weren't scoring or moving the ball. They put up 27 points.


The point still holds, if Trubisky plays they probably score more and hold the ball longer, and thatís just one game. The Redskin game playing Sanchez was like playing downhill, etc. itís a TEAM game!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Hate to be Debbie Downer  
gmenatlarge : 1/6/2019 2:39 pm : link
In comment 14249954 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
In comment 14249835 JOrthman said:


Quote:


In comment 14249734 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


In comment 14249396 Eli Wilson said:


Quote:


In comment 14249389 Chris L. said:


Quote:


but I keep hearing about the great offensive numbers over the second half of the season and how that means we are going to be good offensively next year. The thing I don't here people acknowledge was that in the second half of the season we played a much easier schedule. There were several games where we played teams (Bears and Washington come to mind) that did not have their QB's. When we played a decent team (the Cowboys) on the last game of the season they sat some of their most important players and still beat us in our building. This is going to keep repeating itself until the talent level of this team gets a lot better starting with the QB position (I love Eli but it is over).



How does the other teams starting QB impact our offense?



It absolutely does, if the other team is going three and out or losing the field position battle, your offense is getting better and more opportunities. Also your own defense could be fresher and more effective later in the game. Football is a symbiotic game what oneís teamís offense is able to do will affect their defense, for instance if you go three and out a couple of times in a row you will wear your own defense out, e.g.



That point would work if they Bears weren't scoring or moving the ball. They put up 27 points.



The point still holds, if Trubisky plays they probably score more and hold the ball longer, and thatís just one game. The Redskin game playing Sanchez was like playing downhill, etc. itís a TEAM game!


And just to add to that, if one team is winning the field position battle with their offense, your own offense is always starting in a hole. To think that one teamís offense doesnít affect the other is myopic at best.
Eli's strength is as a play-action QB ....  
Manny in CA : 1/6/2019 4:02 pm : link

At the beginning of the year, it's not that Shurmur didn't want to take advantage of that, it's that the O-line simply didn't allow time time for the QB to take his eyes away from the L.O.S. to execute the play-action.

With a guy ilke Barkley in the back field the defense is FORCED to think run 1st - that makes play- action 100% more effective.
RE: RE: Paragraphs  
dep026 : 1/6/2019 4:20 pm : link
In comment 14249423 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14249397 dep026 said:


Quote:


are your friend.



"amirite" is this a mineral?

Or

Am I right?

correct words are your friend too....


Lol. You havenít seen this used on BBI all the time?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Hate to be Debbie Downer  
JOrthman : 1/6/2019 10:28 pm : link
In comment 14249954 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
In comment 14249835 JOrthman said:


Quote:


In comment 14249734 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


In comment 14249396 Eli Wilson said:


Quote:


In comment 14249389 Chris L. said:


Quote:


but I keep hearing about the great offensive numbers over the second half of the season and how that means we are going to be good offensively next year. The thing I don't here people acknowledge was that in the second half of the season we played a much easier schedule. There were several games where we played teams (Bears and Washington come to mind) that did not have their QB's. When we played a decent team (the Cowboys) on the last game of the season they sat some of their most important players and still beat us in our building. This is going to keep repeating itself until the talent level of this team gets a lot better starting with the QB position (I love Eli but it is over).



How does the other teams starting QB impact our offense?



It absolutely does, if the other team is going three and out or losing the field position battle, your offense is getting better and more opportunities. Also your own defense could be fresher and more effective later in the game. Football is a symbiotic game what oneís teamís offense is able to do will affect their defense, for instance if you go three and out a couple of times in a row you will wear your own defense out, e.g.



That point would work if they Bears weren't scoring or moving the ball. They put up 27 points.



The point still holds, if Trubisky plays they probably score more and hold the ball longer, and thatís just one game. The Redskin game playing Sanchez was like playing downhill, etc. itís a TEAM game!


Except the TOP was:

Bears: 33:58
Giants: 33:13

And let's not make Trubisky out to be Tom Brady. Yes, Daniels is a back up, and Trubisky is better, but its not like the drop off Between Brady and his back up.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Hate to be Debbie Downer  
giantstock : 1/6/2019 10:31 pm : link
In comment 14251567 JOrthman said:
Quote:
In comment 14249954 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


In comment 14249835 JOrthman said:


Quote:


In comment 14249734 gmenatlarge said:


Quote:


In comment 14249396 Eli Wilson said:


Quote:


In comment 14249389 Chris L. said:


Quote:


but I keep hearing about the great offensive numbers over the second half of the season and how that means we are going to be good offensively next year. The thing I don't here people acknowledge was that in the second half of the season we played a much easier schedule. There were several games where we played teams (Bears and Washington come to mind) that did not have their QB's. When we played a decent team (the Cowboys) on the last game of the season they sat some of their most important players and still beat us in our building. This is going to keep repeating itself until the talent level of this team gets a lot better starting with the QB position (I love Eli but it is over).



How does the other teams starting QB impact our offense?



It absolutely does, if the other team is going three and out or losing the field position battle, your offense is getting better and more opportunities. Also your own defense could be fresher and more effective later in the game. Football is a symbiotic game what oneís teamís offense is able to do will affect their defense, for instance if you go three and out a couple of times in a row you will wear your own defense out, e.g.



That point would work if they Bears weren't scoring or moving the ball. They put up 27 points.



The point still holds, if Trubisky plays they probably score more and hold the ball longer, and thatís just one game. The Redskin game playing Sanchez was like playing downhill, etc. itís a TEAM game!



Except the TOP was:

Bears: 33:58
Giants: 33:13

And let's not make Trubisky out to be Tom Brady. Yes, Daniels is a back up, and Trubisky is better, but its not like the drop off Between Brady and his back up.


Let's not make it sound like the dropoff is near insignificant either. It is a big dropoff thus the TOP would have been much different.
How much difference in TOP do you really think he would of made?  
JOrthman : 1/6/2019 10:48 pm : link
They already had it by almost two minutes more. Hell, even Drew Brees and the Saints only held the ball 2 minutes longer.
RE: How much difference in TOP do you really think he would of made?  
giantstock : 1/7/2019 1:52 am : link
In comment 14251590 JOrthman said:
Quote:
They already had it by almost two minutes more. Hell, even Drew Brees and the Saints only held the ball 2 minutes longer.


Umm let's see- the 1st TD in that game was by the defense.

Secondly, in the 2nd qtr with 13 min left the backup QB threw another interception. SO the Bears were driving wither a TD or a FG thus at the end of the half the score would havebeen either 17-3 or 21-3. What do you think would have happened in a game like that from that point instead of it being 14-10?
Then sort by TOP and compare  
Bill L : 1/7/2019 11:30 am : link
which takes the back-up QB argument out of it. My guess is that you would *still* find that the offense was better in the second half of the year. Sometimes what you see really is what it is.
RE: RE: How much difference in TOP do you really think he would of made?  
JOrthman : 1/7/2019 7:59 pm : link
In comment 14251649 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14251590 JOrthman said:


Quote:


They already had it by almost two minutes more. Hell, even Drew Brees and the Saints only held the ball 2 minutes longer.



Umm let's see- the 1st TD in that game was by the defense.

Secondly, in the 2nd qtr with 13 min left the backup QB threw another interception. SO the Bears were driving wither a TD or a FG thus at the end of the half the score would havebeen either 17-3 or 21-3. What do you think would have happened in a game like that from that point instead of it being 14-10?


You act like Trubisky never threw any INT's or had any fumbles. Just because Daniels had those turnovers, doesn't mean if Trubisky would of been in there, the outcome would of completely changed.
and again you keep moving the bar  
JOrthman : 1/7/2019 8:04 pm : link
First it's all about TOP, but when I show you they had the ball longer, you change the discussion.
RE: RE: RE: How much difference in TOP do you really think he would of made?  
giantstock : 1/7/2019 9:41 pm : link
In comment 14252882 JOrthman said:
Quote:
In comment 14251649 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 14251590 JOrthman said:


Quote:


They already had it by almost two minutes more. Hell, even Drew Brees and the Saints only held the ball 2 minutes longer.



Umm let's see- the 1st TD in that game was by the defense.

Secondly, in the 2nd qtr with 13 min left the backup QB threw another interception. SO the Bears were driving wither a TD or a FG thus at the end of the half the score would havebeen either 17-3 or 21-3. What do you think would have happened in a game like that from that point instead of it being 14-10?



You act like Trubisky never threw any INT's or had any fumbles. Just because Daniels had those turnovers, doesn't mean if Trubisky would of been in there, the outcome would of completely changed.


You act like a 2nd string QB is always a 1st string QB.
RE: and again you keep moving the bar  
giantstock : 1/7/2019 9:44 pm : link
In comment 14252888 JOrthman said:
Quote:
First it's all about TOP, but when I show you they had the ball longer, you change the discussion.


Laughable to use TOP. Simply laughable.

Sure buddy a 1st staring qb won;t have more than a 2nd string QB. So sys the unbias Giants fan. All 2nd string QB;s and 1st string QB;s are the same. I got it Mr Giant. After all we know the great Giant defense would have come through no matter the quality of the other team's QB.
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