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AFC Playoffs: Chargers at Ravens

Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/6/2019 10:45 am
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RE: Known stud  
micky : 1/6/2019 5:51 pm : link
In comment 14250689 MookGiants said:
Quote:
RB had a terrific year and the team finished 5-11.

Darnold was up and down this year, but the talent is there. Sure he could bust, but there's also a good chance he takes a big step forward this year.

We know the Giants currently have nothing at QB for the future. They dont even have a lottery ticket.


Its a qb driven league

Having an all world rb is great and all. It reminds me of the old lions with barry sanders. How many championships did they win? Their qbs then were the mediocre to worse qbs ie eric hipple etc etc..this day to go far..is to have that qb..and the 2 lines in the trenches..rest you can work with
I am starting to want Eli off the team,  
DonQuixote : 1/6/2019 5:51 pm : link
just to change the inane discussions about him on this site.

RE: The teams  
Toth029 : 1/6/2019 5:52 pm : link
In comment 14250692 MookGiants said:
Quote:
that are consistently great are the ones who have a franchise QB. That hasnt changed at all.

Or have had excellent defenses. Baltimore, Denver, Seattle and Pittsburgh. Denver and Seattle had four or five seasons of elite defenses. Steelers had ten years of elite defenses. They haven't gone back since they've lost it.
Yes, you can build a team with RB before finding a QB  
Jimmy Googs : 1/6/2019 5:52 pm : link
or you can keep kicking the can down the road and building nothing...
RE: As bad as the giants situation is at qb  
dep026 : 1/6/2019 5:52 pm : link
In comment 14250697 MookGiants said:
Quote:
Is there any team in the league that is in worse shape defensively going forward than the Giants? Maybe the Raiders, but at least they have a shit ton of draft picks. I dont know if anyone else is even in the discussion.


So you agree forget the QB position and build the defense. And lets not do this by Free agency please. We spent 200 million just a few years ago with diminishing returns.
If the Browns drafted  
MookGiants : 1/6/2019 5:53 pm : link
Barkley #1 and a non QB #4 do you think they would be nearly as optimistic about their future that they are now with Baker?

When you have the QB, it's easy to see a future. When you don't, it makes it much harder. No matter how good your RB is.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Agreed  
Jimmy Googs : 1/6/2019 5:53 pm : link
In comment 14250690 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14250687 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:




more like misfire...



Like one of Eli's passes!!!!!


You always have to make this about Eli !

:-)
Ironically..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/6/2019 5:54 pm : link
some of the people who exaggerated the wind strength today seemingly never cared that the Tennessee game was played in a cold, driving rain storm. You'd swear it was ideal conditions for a QB to throw in.

But consistency isn't really a strong suit. I saw that good QB's don't miss the playoffs 6 out of 7 years and yet Rivers is being talked about as being an MVP candidate and he actually went 7 out of 8 years.

Now, the Giants supposedly don't have a QB, or a lottery ticket, whatever the fuck that means, but if we went 5-11 with Barkley we can apparently do it without him too.

If Darnold busts, the Jets are screwed and you are going to have to wait 3 to 4 years to see if that happens. I really don't see how that would give me more optimism.
RE: The teams  
section125 : 1/6/2019 5:54 pm : link
In comment 14250692 MookGiants said:
Quote:
that are consistently great are the ones who have a franchise QB. That hasnt changed at all.


Well besides New England, who is consistent? Pittsburgh? New Orleans? Does Wilson count because he doesn't fit the mold. San Diego/LA - not consistent, though. Atlanta?

Who is a franchise QB today? Mahomes? Goff? One year wonders.

I'm not sure there are franchise QBs anymore.
I also remember  
dep026 : 1/6/2019 5:54 pm : link
all the QBs drafted by cleveland before him.

Think the Titans are stoked with Mariota? Bucs with Winston? And remember Cams draft class? All those teams were stoek by those shit QBs too.
I would be more optimistic  
MookGiants : 1/6/2019 5:55 pm : link
about the Giants future if they drafted Chubb instead of Barkley.

I don't know how you win with no pass rush and no QB. It's pretty easy to find a path to winning without a stud RB. We've only seen it basically every year.
And the..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/6/2019 5:55 pm : link
teams that are consistently great is a small list:

Quote:
The teams
MookGiants : 5:49 pm : link : reply
that are consistently great are the ones who have a franchise QB. That hasnt changed at all.


If it hasn't changed at all, you might need to explain how so many of the highest paid QB's missed the playoffs this year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Agreed  
dep026 : 1/6/2019 5:56 pm : link
In comment 14250707 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


:-)


I knew I could make you laugh!
I dont know  
MookGiants : 1/6/2019 5:56 pm : link
what to tell someone who doesn't believe there are franchise QBs anymore.

Are we watching the same sport? Tom Brady is in the AFC title game seemingly every year. Drew Brees is torching the league at his age.

And you don't think there are franchise QBs anymore? Really?
RE: RE: The teams  
ajr2456 : 1/6/2019 5:57 pm : link
In comment 14250711 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14250692 MookGiants said:


Quote:


that are consistently great are the ones who have a franchise QB. That hasnt changed at all.



Well besides New England, who is consistent? Pittsburgh? New Orleans? Does Wilson count because he doesn't fit the mold. San Diego/LA - not consistent, though. Atlanta?

Who is a franchise QB today? Mahomes? Goff? One year wonders.

I'm not sure there are franchise QBs anymore.


Russell Wilson isn’t a franchise QB? The Seahawks aren’t consistent?
name one team  
MookGiants : 1/6/2019 5:58 pm : link
in the last decade that has been consistently great without a franchise QB.

I'll wait.

The QB's of the 4 teams with byes this year are Brady, Mahomes, Brees, and Goff.

All franchise level QBs.
RE: I dont know  
section125 : 1/6/2019 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14250719 MookGiants said:
Quote:
what to tell someone who doesn't believe there are franchise QBs anymore.

Are we watching the same sport? Tom Brady is in the AFC title game seemingly every year. Drew Brees is torching the league at his age.

And you don't think there are franchise QBs anymore? Really?


You named two. Keep going. Wilson, does he fit the mold?
And the 4 QBs last year  
dep026 : 1/6/2019 5:59 pm : link
in the conference finals were...

Bortles
Mariota
Foles
Brady

3 of them are NOT franchise QBs.
As bad as Jackson played  
morrison40 : 1/6/2019 6:01 pm : link
Baltimore still had a 7 pt chance to win with 45 sec left. Why ? DEFENSE gave up mostly FG not TD. Giants Defense has a long way to go.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Agreed  
Jimmy Googs : 1/6/2019 6:01 pm : link
In comment 14250718 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14250707 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:




:-)



I knew I could make you laugh!


I laugh all the time on this site...its easy
more evidence  
MookGiants : 1/6/2019 6:02 pm : link
that to have consistency you need a franchise QB.

The Jaguars didn't have that and fell off of a cliff this year. Tennessee ditto. Eagles were 9-7.

The teams that are consistently competing for titles are the ones that have franchise QB's.
I think you can really question not picking Nelson..  
Sean : 1/6/2019 6:04 pm : link
it would have been a bold strategy going Nelson & Hernandez in the first 2 rounds. I think the Giants would have been a better team had they done this & they’d be set at guard for the next ten years.

I think this also aligns more with keeping Eli which was the plan.

Regardless, Barkley is a great talent & they need to figure out a way to win with him. This team has been “years away” since 2013. Enough is enough.
RE: I think you can really question not picking Nelson..  
section125 : 1/6/2019 6:07 pm : link
In comment 14250769 Sean said:
Quote:
it would have been a bold strategy going Nelson & Hernandez in the first 2 rounds. I think the Giants would have been a better team had they done this & they’d be set at guard for the next ten years.

I think this also aligns more with keeping Eli which was the plan.

Regardless, Barkley is a great talent & they need to figure out a way to win with him. This team has been “years away” since 2013. Enough is enough.


If they took Nelson, they would not have taken Hernandez. And somebody may have taken him anyway before the Giants got to 34.
Giants went 3-13 without Barkley  
Jimmy Googs : 1/6/2019 6:07 pm : link
and we went 5-12 with both him and OBJ (for most of season).

So what the hell was your point chucklehead?
5-12  
dep026 : 1/6/2019 6:10 pm : link
Shit... I missed that game haha
I'd like to see a list of franchise QB's who win  
JCin332 : 1/6/2019 6:11 pm : link
without a good OL and a good defense...

RE: 5-12  
micky : 1/6/2019 6:11 pm : link
In comment 14250789 dep026 said:
Quote:
Shit... I missed that game haha


That extra loss was on eli
Whoops meant 5-11  
Jimmy Googs : 1/6/2019 6:11 pm : link
That second Eagle was worth 2 losses to me personally...

RE: more evidence  
section125 : 1/6/2019 6:12 pm : link
In comment 14250752 MookGiants said:
Quote:
that to have consistency you need a franchise QB.

The Jaguars didn't have that and fell off of a cliff this year. Tennessee ditto. Eagles were 9-7.

The teams that are consistently competing for titles are the ones that have franchise QB's.


Yet, they sucked until the non-franchise Super Bowl MVP backup took over.

Like it or not Mariota, Winston, Smith, Rivers, Eli, Luck are also "franchise" QBs - all 1st round QBs.
RE: I think you can really question not picking Nelson..  
Go Terps : 1/6/2019 6:12 pm : link
In comment 14250769 Sean said:
Quote:
it would have been a bold strategy going Nelson & Hernandez in the first 2 rounds. I think the Giants would have been a better team had they done this & they’d be set at guard for the next ten years.

I think this also aligns more with keeping Eli which was the plan.

Regardless, Barkley is a great talent & they need to figure out a way to win with him. This team has been “years away” since 2013. Enough is enough.


There's also passing on Chubb. Pairing him with Hill or another young pass rusher would have been a wiser course than what we actually did.

There were three or four possible approaches that would have been better.
RE: RE: I think you can really question not picking Nelson..  
Jimmy Googs : 1/6/2019 6:14 pm : link
In comment 14250801 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14250769 Sean said:


Quote:


it would have been a bold strategy going Nelson & Hernandez in the first 2 rounds. I think the Giants would have been a better team had they done this & they’d be set at guard for the next ten years.

I think this also aligns more with keeping Eli which was the plan.

Regardless, Barkley is a great talent & they need to figure out a way to win with him. This team has been “years away” since 2013. Enough is enough.



There's also passing on Chubb. Pairing him with Hill or another young pass rusher would have been a wiser course than what we actually did.

There were three or four possible approaches that would have been better.


I tend to agree. Love Barkley but my conviction was if you don't like a QB then get the hell out of that #2 spot...
Because you need all 3 to win consistently...  
JCin332 : 1/6/2019 6:14 pm : link
..
RE: I think you can really question not picking Nelson..  
arcarsenal : 1/6/2019 6:18 pm : link
In comment 14250769 Sean said:
Quote:
it would have been a bold strategy going Nelson & Hernandez in the first 2 rounds. I think the Giants would have been a better team had they done this & they’d be set at guard for the next ten years.

I think this also aligns more with keeping Eli which was the plan.

Regardless, Barkley is a great talent & they need to figure out a way to win with him. This team has been “years away” since 2013. Enough is enough.


We can't really hypothesize this way. If we had taken Nelson instead, it would have created a domino effect that changed the way the rest of the draft played out. It would mean Barkley was still on the board, so someone within the next few picks would have passed on whoever they took, taken him instead, and the ripple effect could easily have resulted in Hernandez off the board at our 2nd pick spot.

Dallas spent the 4th overall pick on Elliott and their entire offense runs through him. This can work with Barkley. There are different ways to get to the same place and it can happen in different orders.

The offensive line and pass rush have to be things we go all out on this offseason.

No matter what, NYG had too many holes to effectively fill in one year. The order we fill them is less important than who we fill them with. Try to get the best players rather than focus so much on which holes are being filled first.
I hope this offseason leads to some bolder/tougher decisions  
Sean : 1/6/2019 6:22 pm : link
The Giants have made one tough decision in the last few years and they backed off it (benching Eli). This franchise is fear based right now since the Manning backlash. It’s time to make tough decisions:

1. Moving on from Eli
2. Consider trading Beckham
3. Let Landon Collins walk

These are all very difficult decisions, none more so than Eli. These are HARD decisions, but it’s a business & the business model has failed. If the Gettleman makes some tough decisions which piss some fans off, that’s a good thing.

You know what would be the easy decisions & consistent with the last 6 years?

1. Keep Eli for another year
2. Keep Beckham
3. Sign Landon Collins to a long term deal

Unfortunately, I think the latter is more likely.
The stupid on here really  
Dave on the UWS : 1/6/2019 6:23 pm : link
Is “generational”!! Mook and Terps a match made in stupid heaven. People might have wanted to actually listen to Gettleman’s presser. 1. If not for the fact that he saw Barkley as a “generational player” ( he was right) he would not have discounted the QBs. He stated he’s under no delusion about what the team is and what needs to be fixed. Primarily the OL and pass rush. People here act like they needed to draft a QB every rd or the team is an epic fail. Oh and just wave your Harry Potter wand and all the other problems would be fixed.
This team’s drafts sucked for more than half a decade. It will take awhile. The locker room is better, there’s is stability at many positions. They got a keeper in Hernandez for the OL (something Reese was unable to do), there are promising young players on defense. It’s a pretty darn good job for 1 off season. But he didn’t take QB so everything else is worthless- whatever you guys are brutal.
Letting Collins go  
dep026 : 1/6/2019 6:25 pm : link
is not smart. He is a player who was asked to do things he isnt good at because the rest of the defense sucked.
Have not figured out why  
section125 : 1/6/2019 6:26 pm : link
you trade Beckham 6 months after signing him. Just not a wise business decision unless you get 2 1st rounders.

Oh and Sean  
Dave on the UWS : 1/6/2019 6:28 pm : link
the “business model from before this year is NOT RELEVANT!!! You do know this is a different management team right? You know how that works right? Why do you think DG gutted the roster - only 13 guys remain from 2017. You can add Vernon, Jenkins and maybe Ogletree and Martin to those tough decisions. I’m confident he and Shurmur know what needs to be done with this roster.
RE: Have not figured out why  
ajr2456 : 1/6/2019 6:28 pm : link
In comment 14250821 section125 said:
Quote:
you trade Beckham 6 months after signing him. Just not a wise business decision unless you get 2 1st rounders.


Or why a team that desperately needs to improve on offense would trade one of their two offensive skill players that are above league average
The decisions..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/6/2019 6:31 pm : link
the fans consider tough and the ones that actually are tough usually don't match.

And the interpretation is all sorts of fucked up. You can draft the best player in the draft and still have a portion of the fanbase calling it a fireable offense.

The one thing to come to grips with is a lot of the fan base is comprised of fucking imbeciles.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/6/2019 6:31 pm : link
I still don't know what trading Beckham accomplishes aside from creating another major roster hole and adding more dead money to our cap in either 2019 or 2020.

Unless someone is blowing us away with a big time offer, I can't see how it helps the Giants get better. We'd also be selling low on him. He missed the last month of the season and most of last year. If there was ever a "low point" in terms of selling on this player - it would probably be now.
RE: RE: Have not figured out why  
section125 : 1/6/2019 6:31 pm : link
In comment 14250826 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14250821 section125 said:


Quote:


you trade Beckham 6 months after signing him. Just not a wise business decision unless you get 2 1st rounders.




Or why a team that desperately needs to improve on offense would trade one of their two offensive skill players that are above league average


Apparently the baby needs to go out with the bath water...get rid of everyone.
They are not trading Beckham  
Ssanders9816 : 1/6/2019 6:43 pm : link
You are an absolute IDIOT if you think they are or you want them to.
If we can get a first for Beckham..  
Sean : 1/6/2019 6:45 pm : link
I think you need to consider it. My philosophy on trading Beckham is based on the infrastructure which is still very weak for this team. We already have Barkley who is a dynamic skill position player.

This is a strong defensive line draft, our pass rush is putrid. Getting Beckham for a top 15 pick & netting 2 pass rushers in the first round...is that so bad? It’s about team building. Fixing this mess from the inside-out.
RE: The decisions..  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/6/2019 6:48 pm : link
In comment 14250830 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the fans consider tough and the ones that actually are tough usually don't match.

And the interpretation is all sorts of fucked up. You can draft the best player in the draft and still have a portion of the fanbase calling it a fireable offense.

The one thing to come to grips with is a lot of the fan base is comprised of fucking imbeciles.


There is way too much made of good QB play here. The way football is it isn't too hard to find a guy that can play these days. There used to be a dearth of talent at the QB position making it scarce. That's just not the case anymore. Plenty of guys can get it down if you surround the team with talent. The point of the draft is to add the best players you can. Not fit needs. We pick arguably the best player in the draft and people are upset. It's mind boggling.
RE: If we can get a first for Beckham..  
section125 : 1/6/2019 6:52 pm : link
In comment 14250870 Sean said:
Quote:
I think you need to consider it. My philosophy on trading Beckham is based on the infrastructure which is still very weak for this team. We already have Barkley who is a dynamic skill position player.

This is a strong defensive line draft, our pass rush is putrid. Getting Beckham for a top 15 pick & netting 2 pass rushers in the first round...is that so bad? It’s about team building. Fixing this mess from the inside-out.


One first round pick does not cut it. Why would you trade a bonafide NFL star for a question mark/potential.
RE: If we can get a first for Beckham..  
arcarsenal : 1/6/2019 6:56 pm : link
In comment 14250870 Sean said:
Quote:
I think you need to consider it. My philosophy on trading Beckham is based on the infrastructure which is still very weak for this team. We already have Barkley who is a dynamic skill position player.

This is a strong defensive line draft, our pass rush is putrid. Getting Beckham for a top 15 pick & netting 2 pass rushers in the first round...is that so bad? It’s about team building. Fixing this mess from the inside-out.


Right, but then we have a horrendous WR group with no depth. So, where are the replacements coming from? Relying on FA WR's is a risky proposition. I know it worked with Burress way back when (sorta..) but we're most likely going to need to use picks on that position - so it's basically taking out one plug in the dam and using it to fill another hole.

I'm not sure it really gets us any closer.

And this assumes we actually nail the pick(s) we get in return. What if we whiff or the player we draft gets hurt? Then we're SOL.
section-  
Sean : 1/6/2019 6:57 pm : link
We aren’t getting multiple firsts. Beckham hasn’t played a full season in 2 years & makes a ton of money. It’s a risky move no doubt, but Gettleman should be trying to build an identity here & Beckham’s an asset.

Let’s go back to his intro presser, what does he want to do?

1. Protect the QB
2. Run the ball
3. Pressure the other QB

Beckham doesn’t factor into any of those 3, yet he is an asset to potentially help 1 or 3. It’s about building a team & building an identity.
arc..  
Sean : 1/6/2019 6:59 pm : link
With strong lines & a running game, I think we can win without Beckham. Terps made this point previously - Dominick Hixon was the leading WR for the Giants in 2008 - the most dominant regular season NYG team in recent history.
RE: arc..  
arcarsenal : 1/6/2019 7:05 pm : link
In comment 14250914 Sean said:
Quote:
With strong lines & a running game, I think we can win without Beckham. Terps made this point previously - Dominick Hixon was the leading WR for the Giants in 2008 - the most dominant regular season NYG team in recent history.


We had the best rushing offense in football and a top 5 defense. That's how it works with Hixon being the top WR. Burress did play more than half the games that year, too - so Hixon wasn't the WR1 all year.

Further - that team fell apart down the stretch and couldn't win a playoff game at home. We were dreadful. Not sure that's the model to follow here. The Giants teams with the true WR threats (Burress, Toomer, Nicks, Cruz, Manningham) won the Super Bowls and the ones without those guys didn't win any playoff games.

We didn't win in the playoffs with Beckham in 2016, either - but people often forget that the defense completely fell apart as soon as DRC was gone and gave up nearly 40 points. I'm not sure even a perfect day by Beckham catching the football gets us a W that night.
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