First Round of Playoffs - Team-Building Thoughts

is the vastly improved OL they built.

Build an O-Line, then get RB, and what is appearing to be a serviceable QB.

is a good model. What it shows is that if you have solid lines and a running game you will be in contention every year, even if the QB isn't the best.

I don't think the franchise QB model is dead, but you can thrive with a middling guy if the other areas are strong - which is an impact of having a cheaper QB on a rookie contract that can perform.

are areas of need. I think the first priority needs to be the defense. The Giants defense needs pass rushers and a couple of linebackers if they're going to sustain the 3-4/hybrid defense. There are few playmakers in the front 7 -- lots of average guys who break-down after 3 quarters.. The defense is horrible and incapable of sustaining a 4th quarter lead...

Build the OL for Eli or his successor, and suddenly the skill positions already in place on offense, improves, perhaps exponentially..Give Bettcher more speed to work with on D and add a stud college ER if possible.

That supports resigning Collins. If we don�t, we�ll be hard pressed to use the $11-13M in cap savings on comparable ability. These cap amounts aren�t fungible.

bring in some pass rushers & address QB when the opportunity arrives. This needs to be a trenches offseason. Need to continue to build on the infrastructure.

Adam Schefter
‏Verified account @AdamSchefter
32m32 minutes ago

Bears were +2 in turnovers Sunday vs. Eagles. Home teams that were +2 in the playoffs the past 40 years were 112-4.

In comment 14251747 cosmicj said:

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That supports resigning Collins. If we don�t, we�ll be hard pressed to use the $11-13M in cap savings on comparable ability. These cap amounts aren�t fungible.

Absolutely re-sign Collins. Even tag him for the year if necessary. Too young and talented to let go, imo

the draft. That secondary, those LBs all homegrown. Will take some time to accumulate the talent they have.

I think getting a so-called "franchise QB" (ie top 5 qb) is not necessary. I think this team can win with a top 12-18 QB if we build the OL and have SB be the focal point with a dominant OL and run a lot of play action. The positive of that approach is that unlike the QB position, we can draft several OL in a particular draft and in successive drafts and reduce the devastation if one does not pan out. Plus, you can get high quality OL in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. You cannot do that with a QB. If you miss on a high QB, that sets your franchise back for years potentially.

Seattle did with building their offensive line and pretty much hit on most of their draft picks, including success with selections like Russell Wilson and Richard Sherman. Getting Marshawn Lynch was also a tremendous factor, after picking him up in a trade with Buffalo for a forth round pick in the 2011 draft and a conditional pick that became a 5th round pick in 2012. Pretty cheap. For the Giants, these types of moves can be done. Getting potentially 11 draft picks for this year helps. I'm very curious as to what they will do with them.

you've got to have a good offensive and defensive line.

Throughout all of the changes to the game, that has stayed consistent.

If you have that, you have a shot every year.

And 1 & 2 seeds have dominated playoffs for a past few years.

With that said a better overall value investment could be a good Oline mixed with just a good yet athletic QB

which is exactly why I said this:

Quote:

As I watched the first four games of the playoffs, one thing really popped out at me - outside of the very top teams, the rest of the league is a crapshoot and wide open

Each year, half the playoff teams rotate in and out. If you build a solid foundation on the lines, you at least give yourself a chance to compete every year.

If you have a porous OL like we have had, your chances to compete basically boil down to remaining really healthy.

In comment 14251786 Britt in VA said:

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you've got to have a good offensive and defensive line. Throughout all of the changes to the game, that has stayed consistent. If you have that, you have a shot every year.

I feel the same way of this & it�s very apparent when watching the Chargers play.

1. Protect the QB
2. Run the ball
3. Rush the other QB

That is what wins.

In comment 14251798 Sean said:

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In comment 14251786 Britt in VA said: Quote: you've got to have a good offensive and defensive line. Throughout all of the changes to the game, that has stayed consistent. If you have that, you have a shot every year. I feel the same way of this & it�s very apparent when watching the Chargers play. 1. Protect the QB 2. Run the ball 3. Rush the other QB That is what wins.

Didn't Gettleman say this in his first press conference as the Giants GM and he got vilified for it?

.

yep.

In fact, two posters who keep saying we don't have a plan used those words to show how out of touch Gettleman is with reality.

"It's a passing league now and the old fucker wants to run the ball!!!"

21
24
23
16

Average of 21 a game. Lots of great defenses. Good special teams (sorry Parkey, you blew it.) The QBs were basically non factors outside Luck in the first half, and a few drives at the end of the game.

Lot of people were high on the play of the QBs yesterday. Sorry it wasnt there. Trubisky had a monster 4th but did nothing in the first 3 quarters.... and had two sure fire INTs dropped. Foles threw 2 INTs, but he was clutch on their last TD drive.. Lamar was embarrassing. And Rivers did nothing all game.

Dak was the 2nd best QB this weekend. Think about that for a second....

�The league is going to hell with all this scoring.�

In comment 14251797 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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which is exactly why I said this: Quote: As I watched the first four games of the playoffs, one thing really popped out at me - outside of the very top teams, the rest of the league is a crapshoot and wide open Each year, half the playoff teams rotate in and out. If you build a solid foundation on the lines, you at least give yourself a chance to compete every year. If you have a porous OL like we have had, your chances to compete basically boil down to remaining really healthy.

Agree Fats. Wasn�t meant to derail thoughts as to building up the lines, only that I think middling QB play gets you middling quality playoff teams too.

completely. Middling QB play is part of the reason you have teams rotating in and out of the playoffs. Mariota, Bortles and Taylor can get to the playoffs under the right conditions with lines being decent. While guys like Stafford, Cam, Ryan, Eli and Rodgers will stay at home when one or more areas are poor.

Heck, for the love Rivers is getting, the Chargers missed the playoffs 7 out of the past 8 years prior to 2018.

In comment 14251815 dep026 said:

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21 24 23 16 Average of 21 a game. Lots of great defenses. Good special teams (sorry Parkey, you blew it.) The QBs were basically non factors outside Luck in the first half, and a few drives at the end of the game. Lot of people were high on the play of the QBs yesterday. Sorry it wasnt there. Trubisky had a monster 4th but did nothing in the first 3 quarters.... and had two sure fire INTs dropped. Foles threw 2 INTs, but he was clutch on their last TD drive.. Lamar was embarrassing. And Rivers did nothing all game. Dak was the 2nd best QB this weekend. Think about that for a second....

Good point Dep about the good defense and special teams play. This is what separates the playoff and non playoff teams.

not to start an argument or anything, but the Eagles partially blocked that kick. Someone got a couple fingers on it, just enough to alter the trajectory. I forgot who it was, but in the locker room he showed the fingers, and verified it. Wish I could remember who it was.

But eventually you need a quarterback that knows how to win in crunch time. Giants had that in Eli for a long time, need to find that next guy.

In comment 14251807 McNally's_Nuts said:

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In comment 14251798 Sean said: Quote: In comment 14251786 Britt in VA said: Quote: you've got to have a good offensive and defensive line. Throughout all of the changes to the game, that has stayed consistent. If you have that, you have a shot every year. I feel the same way of this & it�s very apparent when watching the Chargers play. 1. Protect the QB 2. Run the ball 3. Rush the other QB That is what wins. Didn't Gettleman say this in his first press conference as the Giants GM and he got vilified for it?

I wouldn�t vilify him for SAYING that, not accomplishing it is another story...

In comment 14251817 Sean said:

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�The league is going to hell with all this scoring.�

Yep. The intensity of playoffs usually slows down scoring and weather. Also HCs dial it down a bit to see how playoff game plays out in first halves.

In comment 14251829 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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completely. Middling QB play is part of the reason you have teams rotating in and out of the playoffs. Mariota, Bortles and Taylor can get to the playoffs under the right conditions with lines being decent. While guys like Stafford, Cam, Ryan, Eli and Rodgers will stay at home when one or more areas are poor. Heck, for the love Rivers is getting, the Chargers missed the playoffs 7 out of the past 8 years prior to 2018.

I was a bit suprised at the charger playoff drought myself. Seems like they had been in more frequently but obviously not. I think Rivers has played well though so assume their defense was lacking but not sure as I follow AFC far less.

the playoff trend changes or remains constant after swapping out Watson, Jackson, Trubisky and Wilson for Brady, Brees, Mahomes and Goff.

1. Team health. Always devastated by injuries
2. Bad FG kicker. Seriously, they were bad.
3. Rivers end of game production. If people saw how many times SD blew a game at the end with a turnover during that time period, you probably wouldnt believe it.

Wildcard games are a crapshoot always.

In comment 14251891 dep026 said:

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1. Team health. Always devastated by injuries 2. Bad FG kicker. Seriously, they were bad. 3. Rivers end of game production. If people saw how many times SD blew a game at the end with a turnover during that time period, you probably wouldnt believe it.

Add piss poor coaching to that mix and thats it in a nutshell.

Those expecting to get a QB who is both better than and less expensive than Eli in 2019 are in for a rude awakening. I believe there are two paths the Giants should explore:

1) Write off 2019 and cut Eli. Rip off the bandaid and draft a QB if they believe in one coming out, or simply go with Lauletta and use the cap savings and draft to focus fortifying the team along both lines, especially the defense.

2) If the Giants want to be somewhat competitive, stick with Eli to finish out his contract while waiting for 2020 to draft a QB. Utilize cap space for the lines and defense.

Cutting Eli and signing or worse trading for a vet QB who will provide only marginal upgrade will end up costing more than Eli alone salary wise, and I don't think this team can afford to give up draft picks in this coming draft for a QB who won't, in all likelyhood, be a franchise level QB for the next decade. It would be madness in terms of the long-term success of the team.

I personally would prefer to see the team cut Eli and play just play Lauletta next season. Use the cap space and draft to follow a Rams/Dallas blueprint by building up both lines and the defense for a QB in 2020. We should be in position to draft one of the top tier QBs, or be high enough to feasibly trade up for whatever QB we want unless Lauletta surprises which would be a good thing in its own way.

and no reason to (over) spend the open market dollars, imo. It's often the equivalent of drafting for need and implementing a plan that is too short in terms of vision and blueprint.

I look at every play a QB makes now and ask myself could Eli make that play? There are a whole ton of no's and not too many, Eli would have been better in that spot. I agree that that the lines are more important than the QB but I would prefer we look at the league rosters and identify some QBs with the traits we want that haven't been given a shot, acquire the QB and play him next year. I want someone with deep ball accuracy and some mobility. I truly believe this makes our OL look better. If the QB could bail out the OL once in a while with some off schedule big plays it could go a very long way into improving their confidence. It is HARD to know you have to play perfect every pass play.

In comment 14251934 Thegratefulhead said:

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I look at every play a QB makes now and ask myself could Eli make that play? There are a whole ton of no's and not too many, Eli would have been better in that spot. I agree that that the lines are more important than the QB but I would prefer we look at the league rosters and identify some QBs with the traits we want that haven't been given a shot, acquire the QB and play him next year. I want someone with deep ball accuracy and some mobility. I truly believe this makes our OL look better. If the QB could bail out the OL once in a while with some off schedule big plays it could go a very long way into improving their confidence. It is HARD to know you have to play perfect every pass play.

You watched the QBs this weekend and said could Eli have made that play very rarely?

My goodness. No words.

In comment 14251947 dep026 said:

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In comment 14251934 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: I look at every play a QB makes now and ask myself could Eli make that play? There are a whole ton of no's and not too many, Eli would have been better in that spot. I agree that that the lines are more important than the QB but I would prefer we look at the league rosters and identify some QBs with the traits we want that haven't been given a shot, acquire the QB and play him next year. I want someone with deep ball accuracy and some mobility. I truly believe this makes our OL look better. If the QB could bail out the OL once in a while with some off schedule big plays it could go a very long way into improving their confidence. It is HARD to know you have to play perfect every pass play. You watched the QBs this weekend and said could Eli have made that play very rarely? My goodness. No words.

Even Eli can't fumble as efficiently as LJ!

In comment 14251934 Thegratefulhead said:

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I look at every play a QB makes now and ask myself could Eli make that play? There are a whole ton of no's and not too many, Eli would have been better in that spot. I agree that that the lines are more important than the QB but I would prefer we look at the league rosters and identify some QBs with the traits we want that haven't been given a shot, acquire the QB and play him next year. I want someone with deep ball accuracy and some mobility. I truly believe this makes our OL look better. If the QB could bail out the OL once in a while with some off schedule big plays it could go a very long way into improving their confidence. It is HARD to know you have to play perfect every pass play.

I just don't understand this at all. Do you think Jackson was making plays yesterday that Eli couldn't make? How about Rivers? How about Foles? Which throws did you see this weekend that Manning couldn't make?

You want a QB with deep ball accuracy? Did you happen to catch the thread last week where the Giants were Top 10 in deep ball attempts (20+ yards), and 1st in completing them (44%).

As far as mobility, I just don't know what some of you watched this year. Eli was more than adequate on designed rollouts and bootlegs. He also moved within the pocket very well made throws while buying time.

I know you think I'm an Eli homer but I just can't let posts like this slide without addressing them, because I believe they are wrong.

1. Linebackers and safeties in the box made a big difference. Leonard for the Colts, the Dallas LBs, the way LAC used their safeties as LBs, and both sets of LBs/S in for CHI-PHI were hugely influential. That could be an argument for retaining Collins and keeping him as a hybrid S/LB.

2. This is where I think we're way behind...the quality of the coaching on the winning teams was pretty high. Reich and his staff speak for themselves, and I thought Lynn and his staff completely outcoached Harbaugh (until the last 8 minutes or so when they tried to give the game back). Where it's most troubling for the Giants is with Dallas and especially Philly.

I don't think much of Garrett as a head coach, but his staff is strong. Marinelli, Richard, Linehan, Colombo...that's a strong staff that usually has their guys playing cohesively and pulling in the same direction.

Regarding Philly, I think they've done an incredible job salvaging this year when they basically had every excuse to pack it in. Their secondary was gutted by injury, they lost their starting QB, starting RB, missed Tim Jernigan for much of the year, all while dealing with the post Super Bowl hangover. And here they are again in the final 8. When, as I expect, we move on from Shurmur after this year or next we should interview Jim Schwartz as a possible successor. I still think that guy is cut out to be a head coach and a culture builder.

Run the football, pass protect, rush the passer, limit mistakes and turnovers.

People try to reinvent the wheel every year or outsmart the field, but the fact remains that to be a good football team, you need to check most/all of these boxes.

Special teams matter, too. See.. Parkey, Cody.

If you can't throw the football at all, you won't go far. See... Ravens, Baltimore.

It's actually fairly basic stuff.

The real challenge comes in acquiring the personnel/talent, managing the cap, and scheming players to outperform opponents. Talent and coaching are huge, huge pieces of the puzzle. Every team is gunning for the same things and the resource pool is limited - but it doesn't need to be overcomplicated.

For the Giants...

It's a matter of continuing to build the OL, improving the pass rush, and coming up with a plan for the QB position. Beyond that, we obviously want to continue injecting talent across the roster.

There's a razor thin line between a lot of playoff teams and the teams just below them.

I think a few teams... like New Orleans, LAR and KC are significantly better than the bottom feeding teams in the league (OAK/ARZ) - but there's a mess of teams in the middle and that's closer to where NYG are, in my opinion.

The QB position is the biggest hurdle right now. That has to get figured out before we can really proceed full-bore.

In comment 14251934 Thegratefulhead said:

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I look at every play a QB makes now and ask myself could Eli make that play? There are a whole ton of no's and not too many, Eli would have been better in that spot. I agree that that the lines are more important than the QB but I would prefer we look at the league rosters and identify some QBs with the traits we want that haven't been given a shot, acquire the QB and play him next year. I want someone with deep ball accuracy and some mobility. I truly believe this makes our OL look better. If the QB could bail out the OL once in a while with some off schedule big plays it could go a very long way into improving their confidence. It is HARD to know you have to play perfect every pass play.

You must be one of the "highly trained reviewers" PFF uses...

In comment 14251960 Go Terps said:

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When, as I expect, we move on from Shurmur after this year or next we should interview Jim Schwartz as a possible successor. I still think that guy is cut out to be a head coach and a culture builder.

Schwartz?

I am not so sure he's the culture builder you think.......doesn't he have the reputation of just the opposite?

In comment 14251954 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14251934 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: I look at every play a QB makes now and ask myself could Eli make that play? There are a whole ton of no's and not too many, Eli would have been better in that spot. I agree that that the lines are more important than the QB but I would prefer we look at the league rosters and identify some QBs with the traits we want that haven't been given a shot, acquire the QB and play him next year. I want someone with deep ball accuracy and some mobility. I truly believe this makes our OL look better. If the QB could bail out the OL once in a while with some off schedule big plays it could go a very long way into improving their confidence. It is HARD to know you have to play perfect every pass play. I just don't understand this at all. Do you think Jackson was making plays yesterday that Eli couldn't make? How about Rivers? How about Foles? Which throws did you see this weekend that Manning couldn't make? I know you think I'm an Eli homer but I just can't let posts like this slide without addressing them, because I believe they are wrong.

Agreed, Britt. I'm in favor of moving on more because of Eli's age than anything else. There were very, very few, if any, throws that I saw this week that I didn't think Eli was capable of making. There were certainly scramble drills and running plays that he is incapable of making, but I don't think he ever could have been to begin with.

That's not to say Eli hasn't declined. He certainly has. But the narrative that he needs a "perfect offensive line" and a top 5 defense to succeed is false. If both of those are average units, the Giants with Eli could contend for a playoff spot. I just don't see them as a viable Super Bowl team in the next few years and Eli is 38, so cutting the cord and starting over makes sense to me personally as much as I appreciate Eli.

cost a lot less than Eli.

that Eli couldnt make the throw Trubisky made on the last drive. I am going to pounce on that like Ben did to college girls at a bar.....

Their problem was they couldn't run. They had been running the ball 45 times for 250 yards a game. Yesterday it was 23 for 90.

Baltimore was unprepared for LA did to stop the run. The Chargers' defensive coaches deserve a lot of credit.

In comment 14252023 2ndroundKO said:

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cost a lot less than Eli.

Luck had a larger cap hit than Eli did this year.

Brees did too.

would vehemently disagree with this:

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I am watching too Thegratefulhead : 10:49 am : link : reply I look at every play a QB makes now and ask myself could Eli make that play? There are a whole ton of no's and not too many, Eli would have been better in that spot. I agree that that the lines are more important than the QB but I would prefer we look at the league rosters and identify some QBs with the traits we want that haven't been given a shot, acquire the QB and play him next year. I want someone with deep ball accuracy and some mobility. I truly believe this makes our OL look better. If the QB could bail out the OL once in a while with some off schedule big plays it could go a very long way into improving their confidence. It is HARD to know you have to play perfect every pass play.

Just look at the Bears-Philly game if you still had any constitution to watch football after the display Jackson displayed earlier. Both QB's were literally floating balls 25+ yards downfield. A couple were caught, a couple were picked off and a few were dropped or incomplete. Not only can Eli do that - he has. The Trubisky pass right before half? Eli did that against Philly - except the DB intercepted it.

What I took away from this weekend was that the QB play was fairly uninspiring in most cases and dreadful in a couple cases. If you don't think Eli could do at least as poorly as that, I really don't know what to say as an agenda is on full display.

In comment 14252025 Go Terps said:

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Their problem was they couldn't run. They had been running the ball 45 times for 250 yards a game. Yesterday it was 23 for 90. Baltimore was unprepared for LA did to stop the run. The Chargers' defensive coaches deserve a lot of credit.

They couldn't run because the Chargers knew that was the only way they could beat them.

They had zero concern over Jackson beating them with his arm and it made the Ravens easy to defend.

The guy had negative passing yards at halftime. You will never win a playoff game in the NFL that way.

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All of those QBs... 2ndroundKO : 11:25 am : link : reply cost a lot less than Eli.

Isn't Eli like the 15th highest paid QB?

And didn't the top 7 most expensive QB's miss the playoffs this year - or did I see that stat incorrectly?

and he repeated it in his presser last week. His focus is in the right places. I would expect the front seven on defense and the OL to be significantly improved by Sept. And I think I would resign Collins, if possible, as a Playmaker. Its up to Bettcher to maximize his positives and minimize his negatives. That didn't happen this past year. He was asked to do too much outside the strengths of his skill set.

In the other 7 games were teams surprised that the Ravens were trying to run the ball? No. Everyone knew the Ravens were going to run the ball, and they were able to run it anyway.

Not so yesterday. The Chargers stopped the run. Great job by them.

In comment 14252037 Go Terps said:

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In the other 7 games were teams surprised that the Ravens were trying to run the ball? No. Everyone knew the Ravens were going to run the ball, and they were able to run it anyway. Not so yesterday. The Chargers stopped the run. Great job by them.

yesterday was the first time someone saw him for the 2nd time. And thats what happens. teams adapt. Teams know what to expect. Hence making it easier to defend.

were as one-dimensional of a team that I've seen in modern times. The Chargers dared Baltimore to throw the ball and stacked 8 and 9 men in the box most of the game. 9 MEN!!

In comment 14252037 Go Terps said:

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In the other 7 games were teams surprised that the Ravens were trying to run the ball? No. Everyone knew the Ravens were going to run the ball, and they were able to run it anyway. Not so yesterday. The Chargers stopped the run. Great job by them.

7 games is less than half a season and all of those teams were seeing Jackson for the first time.

This is what happens when a team sees him a second time.

The Ravens were a one dimensional, easy to defend offense. All the Chargers did was stack the box and dare Jackson to complete basic NFL throws. He couldn't do it.

I know you desperately want this Ravens thing to work with Jackson, but it's not going to unless he makes significant strides as a passer. The adjustment period is over and they're not going to keep winning games next season with a pass game this ineffective.

In comment 14251954 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 14251934 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: I look at every play a QB makes now and ask myself could Eli make that play? There are a whole ton of no's and not too many, Eli would have been better in that spot. I agree that that the lines are more important than the QB but I would prefer we look at the league rosters and identify some QBs with the traits we want that haven't been given a shot, acquire the QB and play him next year. I want someone with deep ball accuracy and some mobility. I truly believe this makes our OL look better. If the QB could bail out the OL once in a while with some off schedule big plays it could go a very long way into improving their confidence. It is HARD to know you have to play perfect every pass play. I just don't understand this at all. Do you think Jackson was making plays yesterday that Eli couldn't make? How about Rivers? How about Foles? Which throws did you see this weekend that Manning couldn't make? You want a QB with deep ball accuracy? Did you happen to catch the thread last week where the Giants were Top 10 in deep ball attempts (20+ yards), and 1st in completing them (44%). As far as mobility, I just don't know what some of you watched this year. Eli was more than adequate on designed rollouts and bootlegs. He also moved within the pocket very well made throws while buying time. I know you think I'm an Eli homer but I just can't let posts like this slide without addressing them, because I believe they are wrong.

No to Jackson. Yes to Foles,Rivers and Trubisky.

Rivers made in a game where he averaged less than 5.0 an attempt????

In comment 14252025 Go Terps said:

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Their problem was they couldn't run. They had been running the ball 45 times for 250 yards a game. Yesterday it was 23 for 90. Baltimore was unprepared for LA did to stop the run. The Chargers' defensive coaches deserve a lot of credit.

Sounds like to me they fell into a one dimensional role.

If Plan A doesn't work, you need a Plan B. It's called adjustments.

I just enjoy seeing teams commit to the running game. I hope the Ravens take the same approach next year for a full year to see how it turns out.

In comment 14252044 arcarsenal said:

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In comment 14252037 Go Terps said: Quote: In the other 7 games were teams surprised that the Ravens were trying to run the ball? No. Everyone knew the Ravens were going to run the ball, and they were able to run it anyway. Not so yesterday. The Chargers stopped the run. Great job by them. 7 games is less than half a season and all of those teams were seeing Jackson for the first time. This is what happens when a team sees him a second time. The Ravens were a one dimensional, easy to defend offense. All the Chargers did was stack the box and dare Jackson to complete basic NFL throws. He couldn't do it. I know you desperately want this Ravens thing to work with Jackson, but it's not going to unless he makes significant strides as a passer. The adjustment period is over and they're not going to keep winning games next season with a pass game this ineffective.

Yeah, no idea what point Terps is really trying to make here. QB play absolutely held the Ravens back yesterday. SD was able to stop the run yesterday specifically because they were comfortable putting 8 and sometimes 9 guys in the box since they had no fear of Jackson throwing the ball. Their inability to pass caused their inability to run, not the other way around. Jackson only made some plays after SD went into a shell up 3 scores in the 4th Quarter, and they still should have had easy picks.

In comment 14251954 Britt in VA said:

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You want a QB with deep ball accuracy? Did you happen to catch the thread last week where the Giants were Top 10 in deep ball attempts (20+ yards), and 1st in completing them (44%). .

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/deep-ball-project
Deep Ball accuracy - ( New Window )

it would help if you used this years stats. Not last years.

who wants to see this more than anybody??

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I don't desperately want it to work with Jackson specifically Go Terps : 11:43 am : link : reply I just enjoy seeing teams commit to the running game. I hope the Ravens take the same approach next year for a full year to see how it turns out.

Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Cincy.

If the Ravens take the same approach next year, they will be lucky to win 5 games. Put it this way - do you really want to see teams commit to the run? I mean, there have been successful college schemes out there for years. The wishbone, the veer, the single wing.

An NFL QB needs to be able to throw because any decent DC will take away a one-dimensional team.

Let's also revisit who Jackson beat this year:
- Bengals
- Raiders
- Bucs
- Falcons
- Browns

And Chargers

When the Giants were beating teams with backup QB's, it is like we should count them as losses. When Jackson is beating 4 out of the bottom 5 teams against the run? He's revolutionizing the sport.

this weekend by the QBs that don't make the position fungible.

Watson - can move and improvise, and he can throw from the pocket.

Luck - he is nimble in the pocket, he can make yards on his own, he can throw from the pocket.

LJax - Olympic type relay speed. He can move to buy time and he can run like a WR. He's still a novice playing at traditional QB requirements.

Rivers - an outlier with is unorthodox throwing style. But he's also very nimble for a big man.

Prescott - can move laterally and vertically. A threat to run. Competent + as a pocket QB.

Wilson - great all-around QB from the pocket and on the move.

Foles - pocket passer but he's is athletic enough to move around the pocket, and at least be a threat to run.

Trubisky - great athlete, developing as a pocket passer (didn't have a ton of starts at UNC), but he's a threat to make yardage on his own.

A very common, important element exists with the majority of these QBs - they can move, buy time, and create. While I prefer the more traditional pocket passer, it's clearer than ever you need an athlete who can pose some threat to improvise. And that's because building quality olines is more difficult than ever.

So while the supply of quality olinemen from the college store continues to be lacking, you have to compensate with the athlete. We don't have an athletic QB with Eli, and the investment we would need to get him to some reasonable point of being reliable week to week would be a waste of funds.

The hunt is on - we need to evolve and find a QB who doesn't need a pocket built by Berlin Wall Inc to succeed.

In comment 14251960 Go Terps said:

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When, as I expect, we move on from Shurmur after this year or next...

You really think Shurmur is getting fired this off-season or after next year before the season has even been played?

Odd take

In comment 14252064 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 14251954 Britt in VA said: Quote: You want a QB with deep ball accuracy? Did you happen to catch the thread last week where the Giants were Top 10 in deep ball attempts (20+ yards), and 1st in completing them (44%). . https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/deep-ball-project Deep Ball accuracy - ( New Window )

Oh lord....

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There is a wider variety of scenarios that play into accurate passes aside from the typical uncontested drop. These include: Typical drops. Plays where the receiver fails to win at the catch point despite being given a reasonable angle to catch the ball. Plays where the receiver fails to keep two feet in bounds or in the end zone. Plays where the receiver stops or runs the wrong route. (These can be subjective or hard to dissect from miscommunications at first glance.) Plays where the receiver catches the ball but can't control the ball as he hits the ground. Plays where the receiver catches the ball but has it knocked out of his hands.

So it's completely subjective.

The NFL has always considered a deep pass a pass of 20+ yards. They've measured it that way for as long as I can remember.

In comment 14252028 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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would vehemently disagree with this: Quote: I am watching too Thegratefulhead : 10:49 am : link : reply I look at every play a QB makes now and ask myself could Eli make that play? There are a whole ton of no's and not too many, Eli would have been better in that spot. I agree that that the lines are more important than the QB but I would prefer we look at the league rosters and identify some QBs with the traits we want that haven't been given a shot, acquire the QB and play him next year. I want someone with deep ball accuracy and some mobility. I truly believe this makes our OL look better. If the QB could bail out the OL once in a while with some off schedule big plays it could go a very long way into improving their confidence. It is HARD to know you have to play perfect every pass play. Just look at the Bears-Philly game if you still had any constitution to watch football after the display Jackson displayed earlier. Both QB's were literally floating balls 25+ yards downfield. A couple were caught, a couple were picked off and a few were dropped or incomplete. Not only can Eli do that - he has. The Trubisky pass right before half? Eli did that against Philly - except the DB intercepted it. What I took away from this weekend was that the QB play was fairly uninspiring in most cases and dreadful in a couple cases. If you don't think Eli could do at least as poorly as that, I really don't know what to say as an agenda is on full display.

The over all performances by QBs were nothing special. I am talking about the plays where they escape pressure or throw with pressure in their face. Eli is not making those throws. Eliminate all throws with no pressure, Eli can make them, all NFL QBs can.

what good did it do most of them??

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A very common, important element exists with the majority of these QBs - they can move, buy time, and create

How exactly did those traits elevate the level of play from the QB position? If anything, it just covered up some serious flaws.

In comment 14252071 bw in dc said:

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this weekend by the QBs that don't make the position fungible. Watson - can move and improvise, and he can throw from the pocket. Luck - he is nimble in the pocket, he can make yards on his own, he can throw from the pocket. LJax - Olympic type relay speed. He can move to buy time and he can run like a WR. He's still a novice playing at traditional QB requirements. Rivers - an outlier with is unorthodox throwing style. But he's also very nimble for a big man. Prescott - can move laterally and vertically. A threat to run. Competent + as a pocket QB. Wilson - great all-around QB from the pocket and on the move. Foles - pocket passer but he's is athletic enough to move around the pocket, and at least be a threat to run. Trubisky - great athlete, developing as a pocket passer (didn't have a ton of starts at UNC), but he's a threat to make yardage on his own. A very common, important element exists with the majority of these QBs - they can move, buy time, and create. While I prefer the more traditional pocket passer, it's clearer than ever you need an athlete who can pose some threat to improvise. And that's because building quality olines is more difficult than ever. So while the supply of quality olinemen from the college store continues to be lacking, you have to compensate with the athlete. We don't have an athletic QB with Eli, and the investment we would need to get him to some reasonable point of being reliable week to week would be a waste of funds. The hunt is on - we need to evolve and find a QB who doesn't need a pocket built by Berlin Wall Inc to succeed.

And the majority of these guys struggled to do one thing this weekend....

Throw the ball.

In comment 14252074 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 14252064 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 14251954 Britt in VA said: Quote: You want a QB with deep ball accuracy? Did you happen to catch the thread last week where the Giants were Top 10 in deep ball attempts (20+ yards), and 1st in completing them (44%). . https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/deep-ball-project Deep Ball accuracy - ( New Window ) Oh lord.... Quote: There is a wider variety of scenarios that play into accurate passes aside from the typical uncontested drop. These include: Typical drops. Plays where the receiver fails to win at the catch point despite being given a reasonable angle to catch the ball. Plays where the receiver fails to keep two feet in bounds or in the end zone. Plays where the receiver stops or runs the wrong route. (These can be subjective or hard to dissect from miscommunications at first glance.) Plays where the receiver catches the ball but can't control the ball as he hits the ground. Plays where the receiver catches the ball but has it knocked out of his hands. So it's completely subjective. The NFL has always considered a deep pass a pass of 20+ yards. They've measured it that way for as long as I can remember.

Unless the stat or analyst backs Eli they have an agenda or the stat is too subjective. Yet subjective analysis in defense of Eli is widely accepted.

If the Ravens go a pathetic 5-11 next year like the Giants did this year I'll be the first guy saying it was a dogshit year for them and Jackson.

pressure in their face"

Like this one?

Link - ( New Window )

you linked an article from last year. Just a FYI.

In comment 14252073 RinR said:

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In comment 14251960 Go Terps said: Quote: When, as I expect, we move on from Shurmur after this year or next... You really think Shurmur is getting fired this off-season or after next year before the season has even been played? Odd take

I don't think Shurmur is long for this job, no. I think the only question after 2019 will be whether Mara puts him on notice that 2020 has to be a playoff year or if he just moves on.

There are a ton of plays where he does exactly the things you say he can't, throwing on the move, evading pressure in the pocket, throwing with pressure in his face.

I don't expect you to watch it because it will blow up everything you'd said on this thread and then the goalposts will have to move again.

Link - ( New Window )

If Eli was efficient throwing deep would not his air yards reflect that? Wouldn't opposing defenses be afraid to stack the box if we were good throwing deep? Was I imaging the 2 longest passes thrown in the air this year were completed by our WR? Did I miss Shurmur telling Eli to throw the damn ball downfield? I cannot even discuss Eli if you think his deep ball is accurate or efficient at this point in his career. We fundamentally see different things when we watch.

you said he's revolutionizing the sport.

You do think that a guy playing half of a season should be OROY though. That's pretty absurd:

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He should have the rookie of the year IMO Go Terps : 1/3/2019 3:49 pm : link : reply He took a non-playoff team and made it a playoff team. Remember - this guy ran for more yards and more TDs in college than Saquon Barkley. And he didn't miss a game. That's an incredible statistic. And huge kudos to John Harbaugh and his staff for having the courage to try something completely different.

and tell me which throws Manning couldn't have made this weekend.

It's just clips. No music, no BS, just plays.

I think that's pretty damn impressive for a rookie quarterback. I stand by that. I can see the argument for Mayfield too, as he led a previously moribund team to 7 wins, but that's the only other guy. I know Barkley put up big numbers, but it proved to not matter all that much as his team was pathetic regardless.

Jackson actually impacted games.

Philip Rivers yesterday and thought he was "pedestrian" at best?

He didn't light up the scoreboard or stat sheet, but he managed that game very well.

Maybe the best defense in the league, on the road, windy day, he doesn't turn the ball over and it was pedestrian at best?

People are downplaying the need to have a franchise QB to consistently contend in this league. The teams that are there year in and year out are the ones that have a franchise QB. In any one given year you can compete, but thats when you wind up with teams like the jaguars who go to AFC title game then fall off of a cliff.

There are ways to build a team without a franchise QB, but its certainly a hell of a lot easier when you do have one. You need so many breaks to win a title when you don't have the top QB. The Eagles never win the Super Bowl last year if Foles starts the entire season. They got the 1 seed because of Wentz and then rode on a magic carpet throughout the postseason.

I dont see a franchise QB in this draft so I hope they draft a pass rusher 1st round but i dont see a path to a consistent winner until the Giants get a franchise level QB.

If you have a player like Dak you can win but you need a lot of things to go your way to do so.

In comment 14252102 Britt in VA said:

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and tell me which throws Manning couldn't have made this weekend. It's just clips. No music, no BS, just plays.

He couldn't make any of them because he wasn't playing. He's been the QB for a really bad 6 year run. Unfortunately that's on him and much as anybody else. Hopefully he retires before it gets any worse.

In comment 14252091 Britt in VA said:

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There are a ton of plays where he does exactly the things you say he can't, throwing on the move, evading pressure in the pocket, throwing with pressure in his face. I don't expect you to watch it because it will blow up everything you'd said on this thread and then the goalposts will have to move again. Link - ( New Window )

I will watch, I watched every throw he has made in his career. We are resorting to highlight reels now? What if there was highlight reel of his lowlights, If I post that does it count? It would be silly, you would accuse me of being a bad fan for posting his miscues. He folds under phantom pressure at times.
Eli has made a number of big time throws this year(Agreed), I stand by that. I also stand by that he doesn't do it consistently enough anymore.

Forget it Eli, is still great. The QB play we have been watching is good enough for you. It isn't for me. It hasn't been for a while.

played against 4 of the worst defenses in the league.

when Jackson cam in, the Ravens were 4-5, and at the time were either the 2nd wild Card team or 1 game out, so acting as if they were somehow like the Texans or Colts were is a bit disingenuous. He took a borderline playoff team, faced several poor defenses and cemented the idea they were a borderline playoff team.

Meanwhile, the Giants beat teams with backup QB's and it is like we should forfeit those games to preserve the integrity of the sport.

In comment 14252108 Go Terps said:

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I think that's pretty damn impressive for a rookie quarterback. I stand by that. I can see the argument for Mayfield too, as he led a previously moribund team to 7 wins, but that's the only other guy. I know Barkley put up big numbers, but it proved to not matter all that much as his team was pathetic regardless. Jackson actually impacted games.

You still aren't understanding that Jackson and Barkley's impacts aren't happening in a vacuum.

Flip the Giants and Ravens defenses and you'd easily be able to make a case for the opposite. The Giants would be the playoff team and the Ravens would be the 5 win team.

I don't know why this concept so often escapes you.

should be OROY.

Barkley's in the discussion too, but Nelson was just as dominant and his team was a hell of a lot better.

I know it's not Saquons fault, but he stood on his head basically all year and this team still sucked. Spare me that they lost a lot of close games. They also had 4 of their 5 wins come against backup or 3rd string QBs. No matter what way you want to slice it, this team sucked. They were 1-7, got on a streak against backup QBs, then pissed down their legs the second they had a chance to maybe make a run at the playoffs. Every time there has been any sort of pressure on this team recently they have folded like a cheap tent.

This team needs better players across the board. I'm not worried about creating a losing culture by tanking next year, because a lot of the sacks of shit on this team wont be here when the Giants are good again and Shurmur certainly wont be. Barkley, Beckham, Hernandez are the only three guys that would upset me if the Giants got rid of. Everyone else hit the road.

where has Rivers been 7 out of the past 8 years??

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People are downplaying the need to have a franchise QB to consistently contend in this league. The teams that are there year in and year out are the ones that have a franchise QB. In any one given year you can compete, but thats when you wind up with teams like the jaguars who go to AFC title game then fall off of a cliff.

Year in and tear out doesn't apply to him. Basically it applies to 3 teams.

Put it this way...

If we re-did the 2018 NFL draft right now with every exec knowing what they know now, Barkley would still be taken almost an entire round earlier than Jackson.

sure Baltimore would re-select Jackson.

He's basically put them in a QB dilemma right now.

In comment 14252117 arcarsenal said:

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In comment 14252108 Go Terps said: Quote: I think that's pretty damn impressive for a rookie quarterback. I stand by that. I can see the argument for Mayfield too, as he led a previously moribund team to 7 wins, but that's the only other guy. I know Barkley put up big numbers, but it proved to not matter all that much as his team was pathetic regardless. Jackson actually impacted games. You still aren't understanding that Jackson and Barkley's impacts aren't happening in a vacuum. Flip the Giants and Ravens defenses and you'd easily be able to make a case for the opposite. The Giants would be the playoff team and the Ravens would be the 5 win team. I don't know why this concept so often escapes you.

The Ravens were not good before Jackson started. I'm not nearly as high on Jackson as Terps is, but before he started they were at best an average team. And they had the same players on defense before Jackson started. He deserves a lot of credit for that.

In comment 14252115 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 14252091 Britt in VA said: Quote: There are a ton of plays where he does exactly the things you say he can't, throwing on the move, evading pressure in the pocket, throwing with pressure in his face. I don't expect you to watch it because it will blow up everything you'd said on this thread and then the goalposts will have to move again. Link - ( New Window ) I will watch, I watched every throw he has made in his career. We are resorting to highlight reels now? What if there was highlight reel of his lowlights, If I post that does it count? It would be silly, you would accuse me of being a bad fan for posting his miscues. He folds under phantom pressure at times. Eli has made a number of big time throws this year(Agreed), I stand by that. I also stand by that he doesn't do it consistently enough anymore. Forget it Eli, is still great. The QB play we have been watching is good enough for you. It isn't for me. It hasn't been for a while.

When somebody says the QB can't do this or that, and then somebody posts actual video evidence of them doing those exact things, is that somehow not relevant or an acceptable response? If I posted a 2 minutes highlight real that was pumped up to make him look like something that he wasn't, that's one thing, but that's a full season worth of single plays totaling nearly 30 minutes without commentary. He can either make the throws, or he can not. Whether it's time to move on from him big picture/philosophically is not what we're talking about here.

I didn't call you a bad fan, I just said I do not agree that he could not make any particular throw that we saw from other QB's this weekend.

In comment 14251960 Go Terps said:

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1. Linebackers and safeties in the box made a big difference. Leonard for the Colts, the Dallas LBs, the way LAC used their safeties as LBs, and both sets of LBs/S in for CHI-PHI were hugely influential. That could be an argument for retaining Collins and keeping him as a hybrid S/LB. 2. This is where I think we're way behind...the quality of the coaching on the winning teams was pretty high. Reich and his staff speak for themselves, and I thought Lynn and his staff completely outcoached Harbaugh (until the last 8 minutes or so when they tried to give the game back). Where it's most troubling for the Giants is with Dallas and especially Philly. I don't think much of Garrett as a head coach, but his staff is strong. Marinelli, Richard, Linehan, Colombo...that's a strong staff that usually has their guys playing cohesively and pulling in the same direction. Regarding Philly, I think they've done an incredible job salvaging this year when they basically had every excuse to pack it in. Their secondary was gutted by injury, they lost their starting QB, starting RB, missed Tim Jernigan for much of the year, all while dealing with the post Super Bowl hangover. And here they are again in the final 8. When, as I expect, we move on from Shurmur after this year or next we should interview Jim Schwartz as a possible successor. I still think that guy is cut out to be a head coach and a culture builder.

Schwartz should never be a HC in the NFL again. He is a good Coordinator but not a HC.

of pedestrian yesterday. Didnt help or hurt his team. Its the exact definition.

Ive seen QBs go on the road and play in freezing cold and rain and perform better and make more plays against top defenses....

I'm convinced more than ever, even as the NFL continues towards spread concepts running QBs will just never work. Eventually you run into a stiff playoff D that destroys the run and you have to A) drop back B) read a defense C) deliver the football accurately and ON TIME to the right guy. Watching Deshaun Watson and Lamar Jackson - supported by elite defenses - trying to do this is absolutely painful and nothing I would ever tie my chances to.

Does pocket passing guarantee you anything? Of course not. But when it works there is no stopping it.

The NFL is cyclical - again as teams (defenses) move to defending more spread concepts with speed over size, I'm convinced more than ever a big powerful running game featuring old school pocket passing/play action can not only work wonders but completely dominate.

There is no defense for a power run game/play action scheme with a good pocket passer. There never was and there never will be.

It's still hard to pull off but I am OK trying it over and over again because eventually, it will work.

In comment 14252121 arcarsenal said:

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Put it this way... If we re-did the 2018 NFL draft right now with every exec knowing what they know now, Barkley would still be taken almost an entire round earlier than Jackson.

If you do a redraft a few years from now theres a very good chance Barkley isn't drafted #2. If any of the other QBs besides Mayfield become a franchise level QB they'd all go over him and Chubb/Nelson you would have to consider too.

Having the best running back in the sport hasn't won a team a title since Marshall Faulk almost 2 decades ago.

I really think tanking this coming season is the quickest path to making this team a contender.

In comment 14252121 arcarsenal said:

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Put it this way... If we re-did the 2018 NFL draft right now with every exec knowing what they know now, Barkley would still be taken almost an entire round earlier than Jackson.

If we redid the draft, Barkley is still at 2 but I think Jackson moves up the board some. Barkley was the better pick.

In comment 14252123 MookGiants said:

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In comment 14252117 arcarsenal said: Quote: In comment 14252108 Go Terps said: Quote: I think that's pretty damn impressive for a rookie quarterback. I stand by that. I can see the argument for Mayfield too, as he led a previously moribund team to 7 wins, but that's the only other guy. I know Barkley put up big numbers, but it proved to not matter all that much as his team was pathetic regardless. Jackson actually impacted games. You still aren't understanding that Jackson and Barkley's impacts aren't happening in a vacuum. Flip the Giants and Ravens defenses and you'd easily be able to make a case for the opposite. The Giants would be the playoff team and the Ravens would be the 5 win team. I don't know why this concept so often escapes you. The Ravens were not good before Jackson started. I'm not nearly as high on Jackson as Terps is, but before he started they were at best an average team. And they had the same players on defense before Jackson started. He deserves a lot of credit for that.

The Ravens defense was still very good before Jackson started. It didn't magically become the top unit in football when he took over.

His performance yesterday was pathetic. It's not a sustainable model and what we saw yesterday is exactly what we'll see next year on a regular basis now that there's a blueprint.

He's far too poor as a passer to be a full time starter at the QB position. Unless he makes very large strides, Baltimore already maxed out on this.

In comment 14252128 dep026 said:

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of pedestrian yesterday. Didnt help or hurt his team. Its the exact definition. Ive seen QBs go on the road and play in freezing cold and rain and perform better and make more plays against top defenses....

The idea that he didnt help his team yesterday is pure dogshit. He didn't turn it over and managed the game incredibly well. That's not pedestrian. He was not great, but he played a good ball game and did exactly what they needed to do.

The Mike Williams drop was a killer, as was the fumble by the TE.

Rivers played a pretty good game yesterday. Not great, no. But you guys are stuck way too much on the numbers. I'm sure the Chargers were very happy with what Rivers did in that game yesterday.

In comment 14252132 MookGiants said:

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In comment 14252121 arcarsenal said: Quote: Put it this way... If we re-did the 2018 NFL draft right now with every exec knowing what they know now, Barkley would still be taken almost an entire round earlier than Jackson. If you do a redraft a few years from now theres a very good chance Barkley isn't drafted #2. If any of the other QBs besides Mayfield become a franchise level QB they'd all go over him and Chubb/Nelson you would have to consider too. Having the best running back in the sport hasn't won a team a title since Marshall Faulk almost 2 decades ago. I really think tanking this coming season is the quickest path to making this team a contender.

Dallas and LA are doing pretty well with Gurley and Elliott right now. Both top 10 picks. Elliott a top 5 pick.

They're 2 of the 4 remaining teams in the NFC now.

the game manager a lot of people were saying that Jackson is.

He didn't make the critical mistake, knowing that the opponent couldn't do jackshit.

But if you watched that game and came away impressed, I don't know what to say. The Chargers D won that game for them.

In comment 14252039 dep026 said:

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In comment 14252037 Go Terps said: Quote: In the other 7 games were teams surprised that the Ravens were trying to run the ball? No. Everyone knew the Ravens were going to run the ball, and they were able to run it anyway. Not so yesterday. The Chargers stopped the run. Great job by them. yesterday was the first time someone saw him for the 2nd time. And thats what happens. teams adapt. Teams know what to expect. Hence making it easier to defend.

That�s what happens in the NFL, weaknesses get exposed in the playoffs!

Everyone believes Eli is a talented football player who will at times shine. I very much want to move on from Eli but I thought that TD pass he threw to Coleman in week 17 (the one handed catch) was one of the best passes I've seen recently. The problem is how often he makes plays like that vs how often he makes game-losing ones.

It's not that Eli can't; it's that he can't do it often enough.

No highlight reels are going to convince me. It's the absolutely wrong way to look at the situation.

how you watch that game and are not impressed with Rivers. Unreal

The league would change forever. RG3 would revolutionize future offenses. Defenses would never be able to adjust.

Now he's the third string (probably backup next year) to Jackson, funny enough.

Mook, I think this Barkley vs QB debate all year has made you lose your mind a bit! An OG for OROY?

will be a top QB in this league but making any determination based off of one game in his rookie year is stupid.

The Ravens talent at the skill positions is weak, too.

He has some issues, but writing him off based on yesterday is ridiculous.

And the ravens defense being great before Jackson started is proving the point that Jackson deserves a lot of credit for their turnaround. The difference between their start and their finish was Jackson. The defense was good the entire year, they didnt start winning until Jackson started.

I dont love him but one game does not make a blueprint, especially when the guy is a rookie. Youngest QB to ever start a playoff game. Eli was in his 2nd year and looked like pure dogshit in the playoffs and he was i think 3 years older than Jackson at the time of that game.

you mention a drop pass but not the dropped INT....


There was not a single thing he did that was great. If you're paying a franchise guy to throw for 160 yards and have the offense kick field goals...well I dont know what to tell you.

I mean we are acting like the Ravens are the 2000 Ravens on defense. They are very good, but they can and have been scored upon this year.

I mean they had 5 drives starting in Baltimores territory and came away with 12 points. 12!


Yes, he didnt turn it over - and he should be commended for that. He did a great job there.

It isn�t rocket science. Protect the QB, run the ball & rush the passer - you do those things & more than likely you win.

And tanking next year? God no. At some point this franchise needs to win. Another 3-5 win season would be a disaster. Good cultures don�t develop from losing year in & year out.

In comment 14252124 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 14252115 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 14252091 Britt in VA said: Quote: There are a ton of plays where he does exactly the things you say he can't, throwing on the move, evading pressure in the pocket, throwing with pressure in his face. I don't expect you to watch it because it will blow up everything you'd said on this thread and then the goalposts will have to move again. Link - ( New Window ) I will watch, I watched every throw he has made in his career. We are resorting to highlight reels now? What if there was highlight reel of his lowlights, If I post that does it count? It would be silly, you would accuse me of being a bad fan for posting his miscues. He folds under phantom pressure at times. Eli has made a number of big time throws this year(Agreed), I stand by that. I also stand by that he doesn't do it consistently enough anymore. Forget it Eli, is still great. The QB play we have been watching is good enough for you. It isn't for me. It hasn't been for a while. When somebody says the QB can't do this or that, and then somebody posts actual video evidence of them doing those exact things, is that somehow not relevant or an acceptable response? If I posted a 2 minutes highlight real that was pumped up to make him look like something that he wasn't, that's one thing, but that's a full season worth of single plays totaling nearly 30 minutes without commentary. He can either make the throws, or he can not. Whether it's time to move on from him big picture/philosophically is not what we're talking about here. I didn't call you a bad fan, I just said I do not agree that he could not make any particular throw that we saw from other QB's this weekend.

Britt he CAN do them...sure. You could post a highlight reel of Blake Bortles too. He made plenty of good throws this year. How many attempts did Eli have this year? Of course he has a nice highlight reel. You can't cherry pick, you have look at is a whole. You are saying Eli is as good as his best passes. He is as good as the totality of ALL his drop backs. The circumstances surrounding the plays matter too. Ignore the minutiae of what I am posting. I am sure you will find inaccuracies or things you disagree. My position is simple. I don't think Eli has been playing well for a while. In my opinion he is not consistently good enough. He has already hit his ceiling and is in decline. I would rather have a young QB with the potential to get better next year at the cost of early poor QB play. I understand that basically gives up next year. I don't think we are close enough to winning next year for that to matter. I would use the cap saving on a building block FA instead. I think you are a good man Britt. We just see this differently.

an OG win rookie of the year?

one game. It is like saying Tebow was written off for one game, and he never had a shitshow like Jackson did.

Jackson averaged 160 yards passing. He consistently failed on throws outside the hashmarks.

He simply hasn't demonstrated he can throw the ball with the necessary skill of a NFL QB.

If you can find an example of a guy who can't make throws who improved to where he could make throws, there'd be an argument.

Again, Tim Tebow won a playoff game and n obody believed he had a future as an NFL QB. Why? Because he can't pass.

I can promise you that if Jackson doesn't improve as a passer, Baltimore will not go anywhere with him.

The guy went 2 literal hours between completing passes at one point in the game.

Tebow won 7 games AND he won a playoff game and I had to listen to all of this same nonsense back then, too.

It's not sustainable. You have to be able to throw the football in the playoffs.

In comment 14252153 MookGiants said:

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an OG win rookie of the year?

Certainly could in theory but I can't see that happening.

Especially this year.. There's too many options

In comment 14252150 Sean said:

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It isn�t rocket science. Protect the QB, run the ball & rush the passer - you do those things & more than likely you win. And tanking next year? God no. At some point this franchise needs to win. Another 3-5 win season would be a disaster. Good cultures don�t develop from losing year in & year out.

Good cultures happen when you have good players that then create a winning culture.

This team went from a winning culture to a losing culture quickly because the roster turned to shit. Eli has won a shit load in his career. How has that helped this team? It hasn't because his play has gone to shit and so has a lot of the teams play.

This team needs good football players a hell of a lot more than they need to create a winning culture. If they want a winning culture then how about you start with not hiring a loser of a head coach. Then get far better players.

The winning culture of the Eli Manning era never happens if the Giants dont tank in 2003.

Getting the right QB will change the culture to a winning culture very quickly.

You can make a highlight reel for any player, consistency rules the day.

For comparison, Barkley averaged 82.

Just pointing to Jackson's passing yards per game is disingenuous. They weren't trying to throw the ball a ton.

QB for next year?

I agree football is a team sport.

In comment 14252165 Go Terps said:

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For comparison, Barkley averaged 82. Just pointing to Jackson's passing yards per game is disingenuous. They weren't trying to throw the ball a ton.

But thats the whole point. When he has to throw - which will be the case A LOT in his career. He simply has never proven to do it.

In comment 14252146 Giants in 07 said:

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The league would change forever. RG3 would revolutionize future offenses. Defenses would never be able to adjust. Now he's the third string (probably backup next year) to Jackson, funny enough

People never learn. It's exciting watching the guy run around. You even see NFL executives - Ozzie Newsome - continue making the dumb mistake. There will never be another Michael Vick - Vick was a better version of Jackson. And he never sniffed the Super Bowl despite being on some strong teams.

In comment 14252165 Go Terps said:

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For comparison, Barkley averaged 82. Just pointing to Jackson's passing yards per game is disingenuous. They weren't trying to throw the ball a ton.

They weren't trying to throw the ball because he can't throw it.

Do you think they'd still play this way if they actually had faith in him as a passer?

The 3rd and 4 call in the RZ yesterday should be all you need to know.

In comment 14252159 Giants in 07 said:

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In comment 14252153 MookGiants said: Quote: an OG win rookie of the year? Certainly could in theory but I can't see that happening. Especially this year.. There's too many options

Which player was more dominant than Nelson? The guy is 1st team all pro as a rookie, on a team that made the playoffs.

There's cases to be made for Mayfield, Barkley, and Nelson, but its silly to say an OG can't win it but a RB can.

There were a few plays and circumstances this year from Eli that made me pause. I thought ...maybe I am wrong. That was a huge throw. I always leave the possibility open to learn. However, he never did them consistently enough for me. If you gave me 400-500 attempts, I could make some perfect throws. I can sling it at 50. I would also suffer humiliation.

no it isn't:

Quote:

Just pointing to Jackson's passing yards per game is disingenuous. They weren't trying to throw the ball a ton.

An NFL QB has to throw the ball. It is why the option, the wishbone, the Wildcat and every run-heavy offense ends up failing in anything other than a situational capacity.

Great - Jackson was able to run against 4 of the worst defenses in the league. And when a team with a good defense adjusted - well, we saw the result. Tommy Maddox went to bed last night thinking he had just shed a giant albatross.

about players who never went to the Super Bowl, which top running back of the last decade went to a Super Bowl?

I dont think Jackson is Tebow. He's somewhere in the middle. I dont think he'll be great but he has a spot in this league. Dont think he'll ever be a franchise qb though.

Historically QBs do level off outdoors in the playoffs because 1) it's January 2) the level of defensive competition.

It's fun to analyze, but using QB play on a single day in January to make assumptions that apply to what the Giants should do at the position is limited.

Jackson started 8 games and played poorly in 1.

And before we write him off as a passer, he had a 7.1 YPA...so it's not like he was inefficient. That's better than what Flacco was giving them, and it's in line with other guys in the league. And most of those guys aren't giving you the running yardage Jackson does.

Running the ball is always going to have to be part of Jackson's game in order for him to be an effective QB. That's why Baltimore should keep doing what they're doing. He's never going to be a great pocket passer, but he doesn't have to be.

in the NFL in his starting stretch. He beat a bunch of bad teams outside the Chargers and it was a terrible spot for them. Take out the spot factor and look what happened.

The Ravens' offense didn't fail them this season. It actually saved their season.

In comment 14252158 arcarsenal said:

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I can promise you that if Jackson doesn't improve as a passer, Baltimore will not go anywhere with him. The guy went 2 literal hours between completing passes at one point in the game. Tebow won 7 games AND he won a playoff game and I had to listen to all of this same nonsense back then, too. It's not sustainable. You have to be able to throw the football in the playoffs.

Agreed. If he doesn't develop as a passer it will be hard to do more than make the playoffs.

Jackson excelled against 4 of the worst defenses in the league. I'd have to guess that a healthy Flacco could've managed to do pretty well too.

He looked utterly useless against a team that game-planned to stop the run and had a decent defense.

a guy who has posted several times about the Giants beating backup QB's to diminish their season would pick up on who Jackson faced, but I'm continually disappointed.

want to point to Jackson running against some of the worst defenses in the league but also want to ignore that of the 5 wins the Giants had this season, 2 were against backup QBs and 2 against 3rd stringers.

The Giants were worse than their record showed this year. I hope the front office and ownership realize that. This team is no closer to competing today than they were at this time last year.

Start with DE's this year. Get a QB next year and pray he's a franchise level player.

I'm willing to punt next year. Mostly because I see zero chance of being over .500. If punting next year means they are a lot closer to actually contending in the future, I'm all for it. But they can't do it half assed. And they can't make a huge mistake by extending Eli. That shouldnt even be considered.

in point. Apparently only one of those things is valid to discuss....

In comment 14252187 Go Terps said:

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The Ravens' offense didn't fail them this season. It actually saved their season.

Ironically, it was also their undoing - they had no answer when the Chargers stopped the run.

The more tape teams have and the more they figure out the keys, the less effective this will be. The greatest advantage Baltimore had in doing this mid-season was that teams had no tape on it and they were playing a different game with Flacco - so the amount of prep work they could do that week was very limited.

Going into next season, it's an entirely different ballgame. Every single DC is going to look at how the Chargers used 7 DB's, sometimes loaded the box with 9 players, and basically told Jackson "throw it or you aren't getting a first down"... on most drives, he couldn't. He didn't start completing passes until LAC moved into more of a prevent shell.

I don't know why you guys keep falling for these gimmicky offenses. They never last. If you can't throw the football in the NFL, you won't win. You cannot play one dimensional football in the playoffs.

It's also no easier to construct a team this way than it is any other way. Going with the cheap system QB puts the onus on management to field a team with a top flight defense and offensive line so that you can play the ball control, TOP-heavy game you need to for this to be effective at all.

In comment 14252191 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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Jackson excelled against 4 of the worst defenses in the league. I'd have to guess that a healthy Flacco could've managed to do pretty well too. He looked utterly useless against a team that game-planned to stop the run and had a decent defense.

And if he continues to look useless next year I'll concede that it might not work out for him and Baltimore running that offense. But in the meantime, he's a 21 year old rookie QB that is 6-2 as a starter. Had he done that for the Giants this place would be doing backflips.

Jackson gets all the credit in the world for beating shitty teams, but if anyone tries to argue that the Giants improved at all in the 2nd half of this season, they're immediately shot down because of the competition.

That seems logical.

I thought he was great.

But he deserves credit for helping rescue his teams season. He had a big part in that.

Giants fans on here like to hammer him for one game but get their pom poms out and think this team can contend next year and use being competitive in a lot of games this year as evidence.

People here are totally delusional about what this team is going to be next year. Just like they were going into this year. Anyone who expected this team to be even decent this year was smoking crack. They'll fool themselves into believing it next year too. Fans doing that is fine, but it's a problem if the front office does the same thing.

In comment 14252195 MookGiants said:

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want to point to Jackson running against some of the worst defenses in the league but also want to ignore that of the 5 wins the Giants had this season, 2 were against backup QBs and 2 against 3rd stringers. The Giants were worse than their record showed this year. I hope the front office and ownership realize that. This team is no closer to competing today than they were at this time last year. Start with DE's this year. Get a QB next year and pray he's a franchise level player. I'm willing to punt next year. Mostly because I see zero chance of being over .500. If punting next year means they are a lot closer to actually contending in the future, I'm all for it. But they can't do it half assed. And they can't make a huge mistake by extending Eli. That shouldnt even be considered.

Jackson played shit defenses and a lot of the Giants winning was a mirage. People that point to the Bears game like it means anything don't know what they are talking about. Any degen would tell you bet the Giants all day in that spot, definition of trap game.

as a starter before the playoffs. In Kansas City. Every single game he was playing in was essentially a playoff game because of the way they started.

The Giants season was over before Halloween. They played with zero pressure on them for most of the 2nd half. The second they played with any pressure, they completely shit the bed in the 2nd half against Philadelphia.

The Giants suck. What they did in the 2nd half against backup QBs and with their season already over doesnt mean much to me. Especially when they have no future right now at QB. If they were a team with a young QB that was the future and he got valuable experience at the end of the year it might mean something to me, but what they did down the stretch this year means zero to me. They need better players everywhere.

really should go back and look at the AFC playoff standings after week 9.

The Ravens were 4-5. They were right on the line of being the 2nd wild Card at that time. And as it is, they snuck into the playoffs with a huge defensive stand in Cleveland.

You guys are making it sound like the started the way the Colts or Texans did.

So, we are going to argue that prioritizing RB is a bad strategy because a team hasn't won with their best player being a RB since Faulk.. and then in the same breath, we're going to put our faith in a QB who can't pass, and say it's a strategy the Ravens should continue to employ despite the fact that passers as limited as Jackson is NEVER win.

Some of these arguments make no sense. There's no logic.

but Marhsawn Lynch was pretty good in Seattles back to back Superbowl runs (and win).

to no margin for error at 4-5. 6-2 would have resulted in them sitting home.

Arc, I am not a huge Jackson supporter. I dont believe he's going to be a franchise level QB and would not trade Barkley for him in a million years.

I have an issue with people thinking the NFL is changing and you dont need a franchise level QB anymore.

A franchise QB hides a lot of weaknesses.

In comment 14252203 MookGiants said:

Quote:

I thought he was great. But he deserves credit for helping rescue his teams season. He had a big part in that. Giants fans on here like to hammer him for one game but get their pom poms out and think this team can contend next year and use being competitive in a lot of games this year as evidence. People here are totally delusional about what this team is going to be next year. Just like they were going into this year. Anyone who expected this team to be even decent this year was smoking crack. They'll fool themselves into believing it next year too. Fans doing that is fine, but it's a problem if the front office does the same thing.

I don't think I've seen anyone on BBI claim the Giants are going to be good next year. Almost every acknowledges that this team has a need for major talent upgrades especially along the OL, LB, safety, and corner. The issue here is that people want to act as if Eli is the worst QB in the league will lauding bad to mediocre performances across the board this weekend. Then Britt posts a video showing Eli doing all the things he allegedly cannot do relative to these other QBs and it's dismissed out of hand. I don;t think anyone, including dep, thinks Eli is a top 10 QB. But some can legitimately argue that he is between 12 and 18. And with Barkley and a good OL and an offenses that centers on SB and play action, I believe that this offense can succeed as shown by the performance the last half of the year against qualify defenses, like Chi, Colts, and Dallas.

In comment 14252214 arcarsenal said:

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So, we are going to argue that prioritizing RB is a bad strategy because a team hasn't won with their best player being a RB since Faulk.. and then in the same breath, we're going to put our faith in a QB who can't pass, and say it's a strategy the Ravens should continue to employ despite the fact that passers as limited as Jackson is NEVER win. Some of these arguments make no sense. There's no logic.

The jury is still out on Jax. Forecasting that what we see with him now is going to be same going forward is lazy. He was the youngest QB ever to start a playoff game.

Here is the most important thing the Ravens did for Jax this year - they threw him into the deep end of the pool and he got valuable experience. That is huge. If they can now parlay that into molding his passing skills then they have a real weapon on their hands. Granted, that is a big IF...

In comment 14252219 MookGiants said:

Quote:

to no margin for error at 4-5. 6-2 would have resulted in them sitting home. Arc, I am not a huge Jackson supporter. I dont believe he's going to be a franchise level QB and would not trade Barkley for him in a million years. I have an issue with people thinking the NFL is changing and you dont need a franchise level QB anymore. A franchise QB hides a lot of weaknesses.

They do, but the other elements still typically need to be there.

The Giants never would have won in 2011 without the defense picking up. Eli carried them to a lot of wins during the year and covered a lot of warts - but without the defense clicking at the right time, we never go on that run.

GB finally missed the playoffs this year because the roster around Rodgers has been deteriorating for a while and he can't cover it all up anymore.

QB is still the most important position on the team - I don't believe in treating it as fungible. A lot of the Giants' future is going to hinge on who Eli's successor is. But that doesn't mean Barkley can't be a major part of the turnaround.

In comment 14252223 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14252214 arcarsenal said: Quote: So, we are going to argue that prioritizing RB is a bad strategy because a team hasn't won with their best player being a RB since Faulk.. and then in the same breath, we're going to put our faith in a QB who can't pass, and say it's a strategy the Ravens should continue to employ despite the fact that passers as limited as Jackson is NEVER win. Some of these arguments make no sense. There's no logic. The jury is still out on Jax. Forecasting that what we see with him now is going to be same going forward is lazy. He was the youngest QB ever to start a playoff game. Here is the most important thing the Ravens did for Jax this year - they threw him into the deep end of the pool and he got valuable experience. That is huge. If they can now parlay that into molding his passing skills then they have a real weapon on their hands. Granted, that is a big IF...

How many QB's in the NFL have gone from what Jackson is as a passer right now to proficient? How many have won Championships?

I'd argue it's more lazy to assume improvement to happen in a fashion we've basically never seen before. It's wishful thinking.

In comment 14252184 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Jackson started 8 games and played poorly in 1. And before we write him off as a passer, he had a 7.1 YPA...so it's not like he was inefficient. That's better than what Flacco was giving them, and it's in line with other guys in the league. And most of those guys aren't giving you the running yardage Jackson does. Running the ball is always going to have to be part of Jackson's game in order for him to be an effective QB. That's why Baltimore should keep doing what they're doing. He's never going to be a great pocket passer, but he doesn't have to be.

Just one poor game? How do you define poor? The guy averaged 1.4 fumbles/game in the games he started. 11 times in the 7 games he started, and they were extremely lucky to recover 4 of them. That DOESN'T include the 3 he had yesterday. And how did the game end for them again?

People (rightfully) kill Eli for his fumbling all the time. His career high is 13 over 16 games. Lamar Jackson's pace this year was 23 over 16, and he'd be extremely lucky to repeat the fantastic recovery percentage the team had.

In comment 14252081 dep026 said:

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And the majority of these guys struggled to do one thing this weekend.... Throw the ball.

One game, one weekend. BFD. And two great defense - the Ravens and Bears - were at home.

Eli's insane play in 2011 hid the fact that the Giants were the worst rushing team in the entire sport during the regular season.

A great running game doesn't cover up many weaknesses. It's a lot easier to build a team with a top QB than it is a top RB. I would never even consider drafting a running back number 2 and maybe there will be the one exception every blue moon, but you'd be better off in the long run if you simply stuck to that rule of thumb.

I'd feel better about the Giants future if they had Bradley Chubb instead of Barkley right now. I would be a lot more confident that I could find a good running back late in the draft than I would a really good pass rusher late in the draft.

In comment 14252232 MookGiants said:

Quote:

Eli's insane play in 2011 hid the fact that the Giants were the worst rushing team in the entire sport during the regular season. A great running game doesn't cover up many weaknesses. It's a lot easier to build a team with a top QB than it is a top RB. I would never even consider drafting a running back number 2 and maybe there will be the one exception every blue moon, but you'd be better off in the long run if you simply stuck to that rule of thumb. I'd feel better about the Giants future if they had Bradley Chubb instead of Barkley right now. I would be a lot more confident that I could find a good running back late in the draft than I would a really good pass rusher late in the draft.

What's your opinion on what Dallas has built around Elliott?

Eli, he had three pretty good receivers

Quote:

People�� MookGiants�: 12:46 pm :�link�:�reply want to point to Jackson running against some of the worst defenses in the league but also want to ignore that of the 5 wins the Giants had this season, 2 were against backup QBs and 2 against 3rd stringers.�

It selective reasoning by some..no other ways

In comment 14252227 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

How many QB's in the NFL have gone from what Jackson is as a passer right now to proficient? How many have won Championships? I'd argue it's more lazy to assume improvement to happen in a fashion we've basically never seen before. It's wishful thinking.

It's such a different time in the game. So I'm not willing to cavalierly write off the chances for him to improve. It's easier than ever to be a throwing QB in the league because the rules favor throwing success.

If we played under different rules, I'd be more in your camp.

In comment 14252240 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14252227 arcarsenal said: Quote: How many QB's in the NFL have gone from what Jackson is as a passer right now to proficient? How many have won Championships? I'd argue it's more lazy to assume improvement to happen in a fashion we've basically never seen before. It's wishful thinking. It's such a different time in the game. So I'm not willing to cavalierly write off the chances for him to improve. It's easier than ever to be a throwing QB in the league because the rules favor throwing success. If we played under different rules, I'd be more in your camp.

One thing that has not changed is he does not have the body type to absorb the pounding he's taking at the rate he's taking it.

In comment 14252233 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 14252232 MookGiants said: Quote: Eli's insane play in 2011 hid the fact that the Giants were the worst rushing team in the entire sport during the regular season. A great running game doesn't cover up many weaknesses. It's a lot easier to build a team with a top QB than it is a top RB. I would never even consider drafting a running back number 2 and maybe there will be the one exception every blue moon, but you'd be better off in the long run if you simply stuck to that rule of thumb. I'd feel better about the Giants future if they had Bradley Chubb instead of Barkley right now. I would be a lot more confident that I could find a good running back late in the draft than I would a really good pass rusher late in the draft. What's your opinion on what Dallas has built around Elliott?

I dont think they can win a title because of Prescott. And their roster is also miles better than the Giants, particularly on defense and the offensive line. It will take the Giants a really long time to build the type of talent around Saquon that the Cowboys have around Elliott. The Cowboys probably have 5 players on defense better than any one player the Giants have on defense.

The Giants took the running back without having really anything besides OBJ at the most important positions on the field. That's a poor strategy in my opinion. Hopefully the Giants get lucky and get a stud DE this year and stud QB next year

In comment 14252233 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 14252232 MookGiants said: Quote: Eli's insane play in 2011 hid the fact that the Giants were the worst rushing team in the entire sport during the regular season. A great running game doesn't cover up many weaknesses. It's a lot easier to build a team with a top QB than it is a top RB. I would never even consider drafting a running back number 2 and maybe there will be the one exception every blue moon, but you'd be better off in the long run if you simply stuck to that rule of thumb. I'd feel better about the Giants future if they had Bradley Chubb instead of Barkley right now. I would be a lot more confident that I could find a good running back late in the draft than I would a really good pass rusher late in the draft. What's your opinion on what Dallas has built around Elliott?

3 seasons Elliott has been there, been the best player on the Dallas offense, and all 3 years they've had a winning record.

And they're doing it with Prescott - who, is absolutely better than a journeyman, but not as good as the top tier passers in this league like Luck, Brees, Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, etc.

You can win in this league when your offense goes through your RB and the RB is your best offensive player. But you still need to be able to throw... which is why Dallas improved so much when they acquired Cooper and why they were struggling so much before that.

Dallas has prioritized RB/WR just like we have - the difference is their line and defense are much better and that's where we need to catch up.

took Gurley with huge questions at QB, a really bad OL and a young, unproven D.

They drafted Goff, completely revamped the OL (and managed to hit on the signings), and then spent heavily on D.

really hope the Giants dont let Betchers scheme have a big impact on who they take in the first round. Take the best pass rusher available. I think Shurmur will get canned after this year.

In comment 14252241 Britt in VA said:

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One thing that has not changed is he does not have the body type to absorb the pounding he's taking at the rate he's taking it.

Totally agree. This Kamikaze running will catch up to Jax. He's got the Gumby ability to take big hits, so he seems to have some built in durability. But the quantity of blows will add up - it's just science.

In comment 14252245 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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took Gurley with huge questions at QB, a really bad OL and a young, unproven D. They drafted Goff, completely revamped the OL (and managed to hit on the signings), and then spent heavily on D.

It worked out for them, but it only worked out because they hit on the Goff pick. If Goff was a bust they wouldn't be any good.

Hope the same happens for the Giants.

is still out on Goff.

When Gurley was banged up down the stretch, he didn't look all that great.

The Rams actually started winning when they shored up the OL. Goff's rookie season was a shitshow, especially when Gurley had no room to run.

In comment 14252248 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14252241 Britt in VA said: Quote: One thing that has not changed is he does not have the body type to absorb the pounding he's taking at the rate he's taking it. Totally agree. This Kamikaze running will catch up to Jax. He's got the Gumby ability to take big hits, so he seems to have some built in durability. But the quantity of blows will add up - it's just science.

You know who else had a gumby body? RGIII after this hit...

in a draft where there werent even any options at QB when they picked. It's not like they took Gurley over a potential franchise QB. Qbs went 1 and 2 in that draft and then one didnt go until middle of the 3rd round.

They also had Aaron Donald in the fold at the time.

The Giants don't have anything close to Aaron Donald on the team, unfortunately. Hopefully they can get a dominant pass rusher in April.

In comment 14252050 dep026 said:

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Rivers made in a game where he averaged less than 5.0 an attempt????

The pass play on third down on their last possession. If it is incomplete, not only is there another 30 seconds on the clock, but they are punting from 10 yards further back. Under the circumstances, a big time throw and catch to keep the clock moving and get the punter some additional yardage.

There is nothing new in the OP's post. It has always been the case that a team strong everywhere else can get by with a middling qb. What a good qb does is always give you a chance to come back if you are down, an alternative if the running game isn't working and they can put a game out of reach pretty quickly.

What these games did show is that safeties are now the kings of the defense. Safeties that know when to come off their responsibilities and make plays, safeties that can defend the run and the pass, safeties flexible enough to shore up the defense where needed. We had Curtis Riley who couldn't do either. It's no coincidence that we had the best defense in the last few years when Collins played at an all-world level.

I also think that in all 4 games, the teams played it pretty close to the vest and no one except the Colts opened it up until they absolutely had to even though outside of Dallas and Indy, no one really did shit running the ball. These games were played differently than in the regular season.

In comment 14252255 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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is still out on Goff. When Gurley was banged up down the stretch, he didn't look all that great. The Rams actually started winning when they shored up the OL. Goff's rookie season was a shitshow, especially when Gurley had no room to run.

Whitworth makes me cry. I wanted him the off season he was available...badly

In comment 14252243 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 14252233 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 14252232 MookGiants said: Quote: Eli's insane play in 2011 hid the fact that the Giants were the worst rushing team in the entire sport during the regular season. A great running game doesn't cover up many weaknesses. It's a lot easier to build a team with a top QB than it is a top RB. I would never even consider drafting a running back number 2 and maybe there will be the one exception every blue moon, but you'd be better off in the long run if you simply stuck to that rule of thumb. I'd feel better about the Giants future if they had Bradley Chubb instead of Barkley right now. I would be a lot more confident that I could find a good running back late in the draft than I would a really good pass rusher late in the draft. What's your opinion on what Dallas has built around Elliott? 3 seasons Elliott has been there, been the best player on the Dallas offense, and all 3 years they've had a winning record. And they're doing it with Prescott - who, is absolutely better than a journeyman, but not as good as the top tier passers in this league like Luck, Brees, Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, etc. You can win in this league when your offense goes through your RB and the RB is your best offensive player. But you still need to be able to throw... which is why Dallas improved so much when they acquired Cooper and why they were struggling so much before that. Dallas has prioritized RB/WR just like we have - the difference is their line and defense are much better and that's where we need to catch up.

Agree with this. Eli will not be here by the time we do catch up so why not play an unknown with upside next year and hope we find something. I guarantee you on some NFL roster(Practice squad) right now is a QB that no one thinks anything of that surprises when he finally gets an extended shot. We need to do the homework, identify someone on a team or available in the draft and give that person a chance next season. 2020 is shaping up to be interesting for QBs.

In comment 14252092 Thegratefulhead said:

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If Eli was efficient throwing deep would not his air yards reflect that? Wouldn't opposing defenses be afraid to stack the box if we were good throwing deep? Was I imaging the 2 longest passes thrown in the air this year were completed by our WR? Did I miss Shurmur telling Eli to throw the damn ball downfield? I cannot even discuss Eli if you think his deep ball is accurate or efficient at this point in his career. We fundamentally see different things when we watch.

1. Shurmur actually called "throw the damn ball downfield" out as a false narrative (see link)
2. The team could not throw downfield when they couldn't block the A-Gaps, or stunts, or twists...and when the RB was hit 2 yard behind the line of scrimmage
Link - ( New Window )

Is the easiest way to succeed.

I think there are 20-25 QBs that could replicate what Dak is doing in Dallas. They've been drafting very well the past few years. I don't think he's anything special.

In comment 14252323 BrettNYG10 said:

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Is the easiest way to succeed. I think there are 20-25 QBs that could replicate what Dak is doing in Dallas. They've been drafting very well the past few years. I don't think he's anything special.

Having an elite QB is "easy"? There's like 3-4 truly elite QBs in the NFL (Brady, Rodgers, Luck, Brees).

But the four guys that made it through including luck and rivers who played well better step it up. The next four entering the arena are arguably the top four in the league. Eliminate Dallas Philly and pats in that order and I�m good with whoever wins it

In comment 14252242 MookGiants said:

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I dont think they can win a title because of Prescott. And their roster is also miles better than the Giants, particularly on defense and the offensive line. It will take the Giants a really long time to build the type of talent around Saquon that the Cowboys have around Elliott. The Cowboys probably have 5 players on defense better than any one player the Giants have on defense. The Giants took the running back without having really anything besides OBJ at the most important positions on the field. That's a poor strategy in my opinion. Hopefully the Giants get lucky and get a stud DE this year and stud QB next year

The Giants took the unanimous best prospect in the entire draft, who happened to play running back. People can't get so hung up on "positional value" bullshit that they start ignoring individual prospects. That's how Luke Keuchly ends up as the ninth pick in a draft when he was clearly the best prospect outside of the 2 QBs.

None of these guys were "stud" QB prospects. They were guys who could turn out to be good, perhaps even great NFL QBs. That doesn't mean the Giants have to wait for Andrew Luck, but none of these 5 guys were RG3-level prospects let alone Elway/Peyton/Luck or 2004 class prospects. Darnold, who I would've drafted, might have a long, successful career. Here's the thing... he'd be the first guy who ever left school as a redshirt sophomore to do so. Mayfield had the resume of a great NFL QB. He also had issues with being an on the field jackass and an off the field jackass. Rosen had great technique and a great arm, but that never channeled itself into high level individual or team performance. Plus, his health was an issue. Josh Allen had off the charts physical ability. He also had a cavalcade of people making excuses for why someone with that much ability couldn't put up numbers befitting of an elite or even above average prospect.

It's not about this "building the team the right way" crap. It's about hitting on talented players draft after draft as the Cowboys have. Since 2010, the Cowboys have hit on someone good to Hall of Fame caliber with 7 of their 9 first round draft picks. (That's not even considering non-first rounders who've panned out.) The Giants tried to build their team "the right way". The problem was they were drafting the wrong guys. Keep drafting good to great players and when you eventually get the QB, he'll be surrounded by a great roster.

one hell of a good post

With early nomination for post of 2019.

Well done.

In comment 14252332 giants#1 said:

Quote:

In comment 14252323 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Is the easiest way to succeed. I think there are 20-25 QBs that could replicate what Dak is doing in Dallas. They've been drafting very well the past few years. I don't think he's anything special. Having an elite QB is "easy"? There's like 3-4 truly elite QBs in the NFL (Brady, Rodgers, Luck, Brees).

Having one makes competing easier. Getting them is very hard.

saying he'd pick Saquon 100 times out of 100 if given the opportunity over and over again.

That had to burn for the Mooks of the world. All of this slamming their heads against a brick wall all because the organization made a different choice than they would have.

In comment 14252429 Chris684 said:

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saying he'd pick Saquon 100 times out of 100 if given the opportunity over and over again. That had to burn for the Mooks of the world. All of this slamming their heads against a brick wall all because the organization made a different choice than they would have.

The only thing that burns is going 5-11.

Just want to add, after the game Lynn commented that he used to in the same offense that Harbough is running with LJ and that with enough tape it was easy to solve. He didnt just stack the box he put 7 DBs on the field which Lynn said after the game was to contain LJs speed and threat to run.

I�ve been watching the NFL a long time and there�s always a QB that comes in and runs around a lot and makes some throws and plays and ohs and ahs. But the pocket passer that can read a defense reigns supreme in the NFL. I love how everyone blows Brady and then rinses out their mouth with talk about how we need a mobile QB.

Also, running backs and defenses may not win Supes by themselves (I guess only mobile QBs can do that) but they sure do help. Ask John Elway or Eli�s brother. It�s a team sport.

certain that we'd have been 5-11 or worse no matter who we picked.

I know, I know, but the arrow would be pointing upward.

The invisible, fabricated arrow only points to one thing - disappointment in not picking a QB.

In comment 14251807 McNally's_Nuts said:

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In comment 14251798 Sean said: Quote: In comment 14251786 Britt in VA said: Quote: you've got to have a good offensive and defensive line. Throughout all of the changes to the game, that has stayed consistent. If you have that, you have a shot every year. I feel the same way of this & it�s very apparent when watching the Chargers play. 1. Protect the QB 2. Run the ball 3. Rush the other QB That is what wins. Didn't Gettleman say this in his first press conference as the Giants GM and he got vilified for it?

I think Gettleman actually said: run the ball, stop the run, and rush the passer.

In comment 14252354 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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The Giants took the unanimous best prospect in the entire draft, who happened to play running back. People can't get so hung up on "positional value" bullshit that they start ignoring individual prospects. That's how Luke Keuchly ends up as the ninth pick in a draft when he was clearly the best prospect outside of the 2 QBs.

Yes, the unanimous best RB. That doesn't equal best player for the team. It's laughable that you ignore positional value. You seem to have Gettleman tendencies where you ignore trends and a positions contribution to winning.

Cam Newton was the reason the Panthers made a SB. Not Kuechly. Kuechly continues to play well, but Newton has continued to be up and down. So which player's performance has been more crucial to the success of the Panthers?

In comment 14251960 Go Terps said:

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When, as I expect, we move on from Shurmur after this year or next we should interview Jim Schwartz as a possible successor. I still think that guy is cut out to be a head coach and a culture builder.

Oh man... I'm usually in agreement with most of what you say, but I am very skeptical of Jim Schwartz ever becoming a credible, influential head coach without a massive attitude adjustment. Unless reports of him requesting that his players carry him upon their shoulders in celebration are heavily exaggerated.

In comment 14252591 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14252354 shockeyisthebest8056 said: Quote: The Giants took the unanimous best prospect in the entire draft, who happened to play running back. People can't get so hung up on "positional value" bullshit that they start ignoring individual prospects. That's how Luke Keuchly ends up as the ninth pick in a draft when he was clearly the best prospect outside of the 2 QBs. Yes, the unanimous best RB. That doesn't equal best player for the team. It's laughable that you ignore positional value. You seem to have Gettleman tendencies where you ignore trends and a positions contribution to winning. Cam Newton was the reason the Panthers made a SB. Not Kuechly. Kuechly continues to play well, but Newton has continued to be up and down. So which player's performance has been more crucial to the success of the Panthers?

He was the unanimous best prospect. The sure thing. The guy Gettleman, and likely a lot of other GM's, graded out on Peyton Manning's level.

Secondly, Jonothan Stewart was a Pro-Bowler, and Mike Tolbert was an All Pro as well as Pro Bowler that year.

The 2015 Carolina Panthers had 10 Pro Bowlers and 8 AP All Pros on the roster, including Kuechly (both). Cam Newton was not the sole reason they made it.

who was the GM for that team?

but a hard nosed defensive minded HC seems far more in line with what Gettleman is trying to build here.

In comment 14252354 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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In comment 14252242 MookGiants said: Quote: I dont think they can win a title because of Prescott. And their roster is also miles better than the Giants, particularly on defense and the offensive line. It will take the Giants a really long time to build the type of talent around Saquon that the Cowboys have around Elliott. The Cowboys probably have 5 players on defense better than any one player the Giants have on defense. The Giants took the running back without having really anything besides OBJ at the most important positions on the field. That's a poor strategy in my opinion. Hopefully the Giants get lucky and get a stud DE this year and stud QB next year The Giants took the unanimous best prospect in the entire draft, who happened to play running back. People can't get so hung up on "positional value" bullshit that they start ignoring individual prospects. That's how Luke Keuchly ends up as the ninth pick in a draft when he was clearly the best prospect outside of the 2 QBs. None of these guys were "stud" QB prospects. They were guys who could turn out to be good, perhaps even great NFL QBs. That doesn't mean the Giants have to wait for Andrew Luck, but none of these 5 guys were RG3-level prospects let alone Elway/Peyton/Luck or 2004 class prospects. Darnold, who I would've drafted, might have a long, successful career. Here's the thing... he'd be the first guy who ever left school as a redshirt sophomore to do so. Mayfield had the resume of a great NFL QB. He also had issues with being an on the field jackass and an off the field jackass. Rosen had great technique and a great arm, but that never channeled itself into high level individual or team performance. Plus, his health was an issue. Josh Allen had off the charts physical ability. He also had a cavalcade of people making excuses for why someone with that much ability couldn't put up numbers befitting of an elite or even above average prospect. It's not about this "building the team the right way" crap. It's about hitting on talented players draft after draft as the Cowboys have. Since 2010, the Cowboys have hit on someone good to Hall of Fame caliber with 7 of their 9 first round draft picks. (That's not even considering non-first rounders who've panned out.) The Giants tried to build their team "the right way". The problem was they were drafting the wrong guys. Keep drafting good to great players and when you eventually get the QB, he'll be surrounded by a great roster.

Well said and spot on

The cowboys also have balls and draft players that other teams label as undraftable.

La'el Collins wasn't drafted. Top 5 talent.
They got Jaylon Smith in the 2nd. Top 5 talent.
They took Randy Gregory in the 2nd. Top 10 talent.

All three have panned out for them. Easy to talk about a roster being more talented when you didn't even have to draft your starting RT.

The draft tendencies of NFL teams has annoyed me for many, many years.

In comment 14252610 Britt in VA said:

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He was the unanimous best prospect. The sure thing. The guy Gettleman, and likely a lot of other GM's, graded out on Peyton Manning's level. Secondly, Jonothan Stewart was a Pro-Bowler, and Mike Tolbert was an All Pro as well as Pro Bowler that year. The 2015 Carolina Panthers had 10 Pro Bowlers and 8 AP All Pros on the roster, including Kuechly (both). Cam Newton was not the sole reason they made it.

Again, when Newton plays below his potential, how does Carolina play? There is a direct correlation with his play and the Panthers record.

So are most of you. I admit, I have an "agenda". I want to move on from Eli and the Giants to find his successor yesterday. I look at statistics to back up what I believe. I do find significant amounts of statistics and expert opinions to back that up. I share those.

I sometimes(MUCH LESS) run across things that say the opposite. I do not share those things. Would you? Do you?

Many of rely on the eye test. Some people see Eli make a good play and think, he still has it. I think maybe I am wrong about Eli when I see it. Let's see if he can build on this. Being an NFL QB is about consistency.

ELi can still do "it" whatever you want to define "it" as. He just cannot do it consistently enough anymore...in my opinion. Some of you think he can if surrounded with a better OL.

We just disagree, it doesn't make any of us stupid or better or worse fans. It just means we see different things when we watch and have different opinion about the priority of how/when to move on from Eli.

That said, in full disclosure, I thought the Barkley pick was a mistake. I was wrong. We should build the offense around him. We need a QB that can burn opponents for stacking the box. Then, this offense can fly.

In comment 14252591 bw in dc said:

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Yes, the unanimous best RB. That doesn't equal best player for the team. It's laughable that you ignore positional value. You seem to have Gettleman tendencies where you ignore trends and a positions contribution to winning. Cam Newton was the reason the Panthers made a SB. Not Kuechly. Kuechly continues to play well, but Newton has continued to be up and down. So which player's performance has been more crucial to the success of the Panthers?

Where did I say ignore positional value? I just said you can't be a slave to it. I also don't understand the inclusion of Cam Newton into the discussion. Cam would likely be the first pick in any draft he's in unless there's a "generational" QB prospect like Peyton, Luck, or Elway. He sure as fuck would've been picked ahead of Mayfield, Darnold, etc. Many people feel the same way about drafting MLBs that they do about drafting RBs. That's why I brought up Keuchly and why Patrick Willis fell out of the top 10.

Everyone knows QB is the most important position, but that doesn't mean ignore trends, weaknesses, etc. in trying to draft one at the expense of a great prospect like Barkley. As I said in my original post, all 5 of the QBs taken in the first round in 2018 had issues. Guys who leave as redshirt sophomores don't have long, successful careers. Guys who act like fools on and off the field usually don't win championships. Guys who fail to complete 60% of their passes in college (among other statistics) and don't win games usually don't change that in the pros. Guys who can't stay healthy in college don't change that when hit by larger men in the NFL.

As for Barkley, he was the unanimous top overall prospect (not just RBs) of the most well-known and respected football writers I've read. I obviously don't have access to team's boards.

In comment 14252239 micky said:

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Quote: People�� MookGiants�: 12:46 pm :�link�:�reply want to point to Jackson running against some of the worst defenses in the league but also want to ignore that of the 5 wins the Giants had this season, 2 were against backup QBs and 2 against 3rd stringers.� It selective reasoning by some..no other ways

It is selective reasoning by some...you two.

Mook basically says "Giants fans love to ignore how we beat a bunch of teams with backup quarterbacks"

What you two, and others ignore, is that the defenses we faced had virtually everyone healthy and we still performed well offensively. When discussing improvements, this is brought up -

The offense improved while the defense did not.

Scoring defenses ( points given up per game)

49ers: 5 (27.2 ppg) - we scored 27 points
Tampa Bay: 2 (29 ppg) - we scored 38 points
Philly: 21 (21.8 pg) - we scored 22 points
Chicago: 32 (17.7 ppg) - we scored 30 points
Washington: 18 (22.4 ppg) - we scored 40 points (no Odell)
Tennessee: 30 (18.9 ppg) - shut out (no Odell)
Indy: 23 (21.5 ppg) - we scored 27 points (no Odell)
Dallas: 27 (20.2 ppg) - we scored 35 points (no Odell)

In the 2nd half of the year, 6 of our 8 opponents had defenses in the top half of defensive ppg. Aside from being shut out by the 3rd best ppg defense (Titans), the Giants did pretty well.

** if you take away the Giants 3 defensive scores (Tampa, Chicago and Washington) the Giants still would have exceeded that teams final defensive ppg average.

So i think its fair to say our offense improved in the second half.

In comment 14252251 MookGiants said:

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In comment 14252245 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: took Gurley with huge questions at QB, a really bad OL and a young, unproven D. They drafted Goff, completely revamped the OL (and managed to hit on the signings), and then spent heavily on D. It worked out for them, but it only worked out because they hit on the Goff pick. If Goff was a bust they wouldn't be any good. Hope the same happens for the Giants.

That, and it appears as though they've got a gifted head coach who will struggle, but seems to be able to adjust and improve.

I'm not sure we can say the same but let's hope so.

In comment 14252606 santacruzom said:

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In comment 14251960 Go Terps said: Quote: When, as I expect, we move on from Shurmur after this year or next we should interview Jim Schwartz as a possible successor. I still think that guy is cut out to be a head coach and a culture builder. Oh man... I'm usually in agreement with most of what you say, but I am very skeptical of Jim Schwartz ever becoming a credible, influential head coach without a massive attitude adjustment. Unless reports of him requesting that his players carry him upon their shoulders in celebration are heavily exaggerated.

I may be completely wrong on Schwartz, but I've been really impressed with the way the Philly coaching staff has handled this year. I'd want to get in on that and at the same time take someone from Philly.

have you thought this one out very well??

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Cam Newton was the reason the Panthers made a SB. Not Kuechly. Kuechly continues to play well, but Newton has continued to be up and down. So which player's performance has been more crucial to the success of the Panthers?

Newton had a much better statistical year this year than last year. His completion % was 6 points higher than ANY of his seasons. He had 24 TD's vs 22 last year and 13 INT's, 3 fewer than last year. Team was 5 games worse in the W column.

In fact, this year was nearly identical in yards, TD's and INT's to their 2013 12-4 season.

I'd think that Kuechly combined with his peers who had a top D in the SB year was a main driver in getting them to the SB.

In comment 14252591 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14252354 shockeyisthebest8056 said: Quote: The Giants took the unanimous best prospect in the entire draft, who happened to play running back. People can't get so hung up on "positional value" bullshit that they start ignoring individual prospects. That's how Luke Keuchly ends up as the ninth pick in a draft when he was clearly the best prospect outside of the 2 QBs. Yes, the unanimous best RB. That doesn't equal best player for the team. It's laughable that you ignore positional value. You seem to have Gettleman tendencies where you ignore trends and a positions contribution to winning. Cam Newton was the reason the Panthers made a SB. Not Kuechly. Kuechly continues to play well, but Newton has continued to be up and down. So which player's performance has been more crucial to the success of the Panthers?

It's not the Panthers who support his argument about Kuechly being a positional-value victim -- it's the teams before them who could have drafted him but didn't.

I do think people overlook the % of a sure thing.

Let's say Chubb was 80% a lock to be a difference maker but Barkley was a 90%. Both turn out to be studs. People then argue we should have taken the DE. It doesn't necessarily hold. You take the sure thing. We should do the same again.

I do think you need a QB. No way Daniel leads the bears back to that FG. Trubisky did well. The Giants need to solve the QB position.

I do think the above can be done by fixing the OL. It's a temporary fix but Eli can play still. I saw a lot of QBs get better protection than Eli can dream of. We need a RT more than a QB.

We need to upgrade the safety and LB positions. Especially safety. The safety play was light years ahead of what we saw.

In comment 14252727 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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Newton had a much better statistical year this year than last year. His completion % was 6 points higher than ANY of his seasons. He had 24 TD's vs 22 last year and 13 INT's, 3 fewer than last year. Team was 5 games worse in the W column. In fact, this year was nearly identical in yards, TD's and INT's to their 2013 12-4 season. I'd think that Kuechly combined with his peers who had a top D in the SB year was a main driver in getting them to the SB.

I thought you lived in Charlotte. Newton has played the back half of the year injured with the shoulder. Carolina has averaged barely 18ppg since the shoulder worsened. And then they lost six in a row.

In the first eight games, they averaged 25+, when he was healthier. So his stats are skewed favorably because of the first half. Oh, and Carolina was 7-2.

Kuechly is a great player. Another All Pro season. So how well did his defense do with Newton unable to drive the team to more productivity while he was hurt?

Which begs the question - I wonder if you thought this one out?

In comment 14252040 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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were as one-dimensional of a team that I've seen in modern times. The Chargers dared Baltimore to throw the ball and stacked 8 and 9 men in the box most of the game. 9 MEN!!

How about Giants using 10 men in the box to stop Gore?
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 14252810 bw in dc said:

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Kuechly is a great player. Another All Pro season. So how well did his defense do with Newton unable to drive the team to more productivity while he was hurt? Which begs the question - I wonder if you thought this one out?

Why is Kuechly vs Newton at the center of your argument, instead of Kuechly vs everyone taken after him in 2012?

Can't see how he's a better passer than Kaepernick at any point in in Kap's career?

Maybe he could run better?

before him (aside from Luck and Griffin of course)

Evening guys. Happy New Year to everyone! Lets hope 2019 is a whole lot better than the last couple of years at least from a Giants perspective.

Interesting discussion. I recently posted an article over at the GBN (which Defenderdawg graciously referred to in his list of Monday reading today) that addressed the issues raised in this article. In the article I was responding to the most oft-asked questions I get about where the Giants are at these days. And right at the top of the list has been the question (or some variation of): "After three and five win seasons are the Giants �close� as some people suggest or are they in reality in the midst of a major rebuild?

The answer is Yes and Yes!

The margin between winning and losing in the NFL is often very small and in the Giants case it doesn�t get much smaller than two 1-point losses in the final minute, a two-point loss on a 63-yard FG at the end, a three-point loss, a 5-point loss (in which the winning points were scored on a pick-6 of a deflected pass) and a couple of 7 point losses. That�s 4 losses by a total of 7 points and 7 losses by a total of 26 points. What was frustrating is that it isn�t hard to go back and see where with a play here or there, especially a stop on defense in the latter part of any number of games, that the Giants could just as easily have won several more games and been in the thick of the hunt for a playoff spot. Indeed, tweak the OL a little bit further and add a body or two on defense, especially to the pass rush, and it is not all that inconceivable that the Giants could easily win some of the close games they lost this year and finish with 9-10 wins and make the playoffs next fall.

However, that�s not really the goal here. As G.M. Dave Gettleman noted in his year-end presser, the ultimate objective is to �build sustained success� where one posts double-digit wins, gets home-field advantage, and goes deep into the playoffs on a yearly basis. And in that regard the Giants appear to still have some heavy-lifting to do. Indeed, at least in a general sense, teams that fit that characterization have at least one of two things (if not both): either a very good, if not elite QB; and/or a very good defense that can at least hold a lead at the end of games. Truth be told the Giants have neither. Eli appears to still have some tread left on the tires, but he is simply no longer anywhere near the category of guys like Brady, Brees and Mahomes and obviously the heir apparent just isn�t very apparent! Meanwhile, right now the Giants defense bares no resemblance at all to the great championship defenses of Huff, Robustelli, Grier, Katcavage, and Patten; LT, Banks, Carson, Marshall and Collins; and Strahan, Tuck, and Unmenyiora et al. Not even close."

People that haven't seen can read the full article here.

Botom line is that people may be talking past each other a little bit as I suspect there are some major differences in what is needed between getting better and making the playoffs versus becoming a legit elite championship team.

Was traveling all day and just seeing your OP. Did not read through all of the responses.

I agree with what you are saying in general. However, I do not think we should come to the conclusion that defense is not as important as we thought since Balt and Chi lost. Baltimore's offense lost the game for them in the first half. Chicago's defense still played well even though the team lost. If the kick was straight, we would not be talking about it.

I agree with your Eli comment about leaning towards replacing him. What would really help this offense is if we were able to find someone who is not necessarily an upgrade but has the ability to run. Not a "running" QB but someone that gives defenses that hesitation or concern for contain. It would do wonders for our OL and would make their jobs easier to block for whoever that QB is.

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putting the resources to build the lines and solidify the defense. At this point, the QB seems to be fungible. We could get one last year out of Eli... But, what also becomes glaring in this is that there's only so many places to rebuild from. I know many went apeshit about the Omemeah contract (which, while expensive this year, has little impact forward) and the Solder contract, but the assets simply weren't available. We could have given contracts to the top 5 OL in FA and not have seen much better results. That's key for people who scream that we don't have a plan to understand. How much of a planned roster turnover can be done in one offseason where areas of need didn't have valuable assets available to sign?

Good points. Points I've agreed with for a while now.

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There will be a couple decent OL and pass rushers available in FA.

Not sure I agree with this just yet. I think we need to wait and see who resigns with their current teams. Looking at recent trends, good young OL are not hitting FA often. Its either replacement level players, or guys over 30 hanging on for a last contract. I suspect that when the dust settles, there won't be much more to pick over than there was last year. Same goes for pass rushers.

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, or replace him at a lower cost and expect similar results. I'd opt for the latter if we could do it.

You can replace him at a lower cost, but I think I have gone through the candidate on other posts, there is nobody that will perform as well at a lower cost for short term contract. You can grab a a lower level starter and guarantee a really bad season, if that is what you mean by "similar results". That has some merit in helping to get a real QB in 2020. But there is no lower cost replacement player for Eli that will perform comparably.

I have am one of the people who suggest that our 5 wins this year is bloated due to good health for the Giants, and facing a string of banged up teams with backup QBs. To me this team is still a 3 - 13 franchise. Sad to say but, 5 or 6 wins without the gifts wins of this season will represent real improvement. 5 or 6 wins is just as lost a season as 3. So who cares who plays QB and if you get 3 wins or 6 wins. Problem is that its a bad optic going into the season, and its bad for business. So I think the business decision is to let Eli finish his last year.

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If we cut Vernon and use that salary on replacements on the defensive line or at safety/LB, we could get a decent return, then use draft picks to solidify the OL. The cap is not going to be a huge issue this year as we have flexibility to work around it and it rose $14M.

Because the cap is not a huge issue, I'm not sure its a good idea to cut OV for nothing in return. He should be tradeable fir something.

Also looking at recent FA costs, defense seems a better place to get value in the FA market, so I'm on board there.

that healthy:

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I have am one of the people who suggest that our 5 wins this year is bloated due to good health for the Giants

At week 6, we were 16th in overall health and finished 21st.

I think Giants were in pretty good shape in first half of season on starters lost due to injuries, but things clearly deteriorated in second half.

Average overall seems pretty reasonable.

This thread had nice promise as the day started...what the hell happened?

In comment 14253049 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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that healthy: Quote: I have am one of the people who suggest that our 5 wins this year is bloated due to good health for the Giants At week 6, we were 16th in overall health and finished 21st.

Interesting health numbers, I was looking for them but was having difficulty finding.
Here is the thing. The team was certainly healther for weeks 9 - 13 where they had the 4 - 1 stretch, and they played some banged up teams. Yeah it went downhill after that losing OBJ, Collins, and a few others along the way. But during that period of winning football the point I am making is that it was largely due to superior health. THat includes facing 3 backup QBs.

Had the Giants lost OBJ, Collins, or god forbid Solder, Hernandez or Brown, during that stretch, I doubt they win any of those games.

In comment 14252676 Thegratefulhead said:

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That said, in full disclosure, I thought the Barkley pick was a mistake. I was wrong. We should build the offense around him. We need a QB that can burn opponents for stacking the box. Then, this offense can fly.

But Giants opponents can generate plenty of pressure and stop the run without stacking the box...that has been the problem...the OL has been very bad for a long time...its not a coincidence that SB was the Giants first 1000 yard rusher since 2012...

In the 2nd half of the season when they got average OL play both the passing and running game greatly improved...

Yet you say it's the QB...

was a little different this year because we didn't have cluster injuries - other than at C:

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Interesting health numbers, I was looking for them but was having difficulty finding. Here is the thing. The team was certainly healthier for weeks 9 - 13 where they had the 4 - 1 stretch, and they played some banged up teams.

In some past years, we not only had a lot of men go down, but we had them clustered at one or two positions, nearly wiping all the depth out.

That's probably what has given the appearance we had decent health.