As I watched the first four games of the playoffs, one thing really popped out at me - outside of the very top teams, the rest of the league is a crapshoot and wide open. The two top defenses (as well as Houston) were bounced, and there really wasn't a theme that ran constant through the winners.
QB play was below average to putrid. One could make a case that outside of Andrew Luck, every other QB was pedestrian at best. Both Chicago and Baltimore, looking back on their season, may draw a conclusion that being in the Top 10 of health played as much of a part in their success as their defenses did, much like the Giants in 2016.
But what this highlights for me as we have the debate on team-building is that I would advocate putting the resources to build the lines and solidify the defense. At this point, the QB seems to be fungible. We could get one last year out of Eli, or replace him at a lower cost and expect similar results. I'd opt for the latter if we could do it.
But, what also becomes glaring in this is that there's only so many places to rebuild from. I know many went apeshit about the Omemeah contract (which, while expensive this year, has little impact forward) and the Solder contract, but the assets simply weren't available. We could have given contracts to the top 5 OL in FA and not have seen much better results. That's key for people who scream that we don't have a plan to understand. How much of a planned roster turnover can be done in one offseason where areas of need didn't have valuable assets available to sign?
There will be a couple decent OL and pass rushers available in FA. If we cut Vernon and use that salary on replacements on the defensive line or at safety/LB, we could get a decent return, then use draft picks to solidify the OL. The cap is not going to be a huge issue this year as we have flexibility to work around it and it rose $14M.
With Barkley in place, building a solid OL and getting a QB to replace Eli will be the key pieces for improvement. It is what the Rams did. They took Gurley, then got their QB, then put together a really solid OL. Based on what we've seen from the mediocrity that was in the playoffs, I do see light at the end of the tunnel.
i also see that the QB conversation isn't likely to be the lynchpin to the success as a lot made it out to be last year.
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In the other 7 games were teams surprised that the Ravens were trying to run the ball? No. Everyone knew the Ravens were going to run the ball, and they were able to run it anyway.
Not so yesterday. The Chargers stopped the run. Great job by them.
yesterday was the first time someone saw him for the 2nd time. And thats what happens. teams adapt. Teams know what to expect. Hence making it easier to defend.
That’s what happens in the NFL, weaknesses get exposed in the playoffs!
It's not that Eli can't; it's that he can't do it often enough.
No highlight reels are going to convince me. It's the absolutely wrong way to look at the situation.
Now he's the third string (probably backup next year) to Jackson, funny enough.
Mook, I think this Barkley vs QB debate all year has made you lose your mind a bit! An OG for OROY?
The Ravens talent at the skill positions is weak, too.
He has some issues, but writing him off based on yesterday is ridiculous.
And the ravens defense being great before Jackson started is proving the point that Jackson deserves a lot of credit for their turnaround. The difference between their start and their finish was Jackson. The defense was good the entire year, they didnt start winning until Jackson started.
I dont love him but one game does not make a blueprint, especially when the guy is a rookie. Youngest QB to ever start a playoff game. Eli was in his 2nd year and looked like pure dogshit in the playoffs and he was i think 3 years older than Jackson at the time of that game.
There was not a single thing he did that was great. If you're paying a franchise guy to throw for 160 yards and have the offense kick field goals...well I dont know what to tell you.
I mean we are acting like the Ravens are the 2000 Ravens on defense. They are very good, but they can and have been scored upon this year.
I mean they had 5 drives starting in Baltimores territory and came away with 12 points. 12!
Yes, he didnt turn it over - and he should be commended for that. He did a great job there.
And tanking next year? God no. At some point this franchise needs to win. Another 3-5 win season would be a disaster. Good cultures don’t develop from losing year in & year out.
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In comment 14252091 Britt in VA said:
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There are a ton of plays where he does exactly the things you say he can't, throwing on the move, evading pressure in the pocket, throwing with pressure in his face.
I don't expect you to watch it because it will blow up everything you'd said on this thread and then the goalposts will have to move again. Link - ( New Window )
I will watch, I watched every throw he has made in his career. We are resorting to highlight reels now? What if there was highlight reel of his lowlights, If I post that does it count? It would be silly, you would accuse me of being a bad fan for posting his miscues. He folds under phantom pressure at times.
Eli has made a number of big time throws this year(Agreed), I stand by that. I also stand by that he doesn't do it consistently enough anymore.
Forget it Eli, is still great. The QB play we have been watching is good enough for you. It isn't for me. It hasn't been for a while.
When somebody says the QB can't do this or that, and then somebody posts actual video evidence of them doing those exact things, is that somehow not relevant or an acceptable response? If I posted a 2 minutes highlight real that was pumped up to make him look like something that he wasn't, that's one thing, but that's a full season worth of single plays totaling nearly 30 minutes without commentary. He can either make the throws, or he can not. Whether it's time to move on from him big picture/philosophically is not what we're talking about here.
I didn't call you a bad fan, I just said I do not agree that he could not make any particular throw that we saw from other QB's this weekend.
Jackson averaged 160 yards passing. He consistently failed on throws outside the hashmarks.
He simply hasn't demonstrated he can throw the ball with the necessary skill of a NFL QB.
If you can find an example of a guy who can't make throws who improved to where he could make throws, there'd be an argument.
Again, Tim Tebow won a playoff game and n obody believed he had a future as an NFL QB. Why? Because he can't pass.
The guy went 2 literal hours between completing passes at one point in the game.
Tebow won 7 games AND he won a playoff game and I had to listen to all of this same nonsense back then, too.
It's not sustainable. You have to be able to throw the football in the playoffs.
Certainly could in theory but I can't see that happening.
Especially this year.. There's too many options
And tanking next year? God no. At some point this franchise needs to win. Another 3-5 win season would be a disaster. Good cultures don’t develop from losing year in & year out.
Good cultures happen when you have good players that then create a winning culture.
This team went from a winning culture to a losing culture quickly because the roster turned to shit. Eli has won a shit load in his career. How has that helped this team? It hasn't because his play has gone to shit and so has a lot of the teams play.
This team needs good football players a hell of a lot more than they need to create a winning culture. If they want a winning culture then how about you start with not hiring a loser of a head coach. Then get far better players.
The winning culture of the Eli Manning era never happens if the Giants dont tank in 2003.
Getting the right QB will change the culture to a winning culture very quickly.
Just pointing to Jackson's passing yards per game is disingenuous. They weren't trying to throw the ball a ton.
Just pointing to Jackson's passing yards per game is disingenuous. They weren't trying to throw the ball a ton.
But thats the whole point. When he has to throw - which will be the case A LOT in his career. He simply has never proven to do it.
Now he's the third string (probably backup next year) to Jackson, funny enough
People never learn. It's exciting watching the guy run around. You even see NFL executives - Ozzie Newsome - continue making the dumb mistake. There will never be another Michael Vick - Vick was a better version of Jackson. And he never sniffed the Super Bowl despite being on some strong teams.
Just pointing to Jackson's passing yards per game is disingenuous. They weren't trying to throw the ball a ton.
They weren't trying to throw the ball because he can't throw it.
Do you think they'd still play this way if they actually had faith in him as a passer?
The 3rd and 4 call in the RZ yesterday should be all you need to know.
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an OG win rookie of the year?
Certainly could in theory but I can't see that happening.
Especially this year.. There's too many options
Which player was more dominant than Nelson? The guy is 1st team all pro as a rookie, on a team that made the playoffs.
There's cases to be made for Mayfield, Barkley, and Nelson, but its silly to say an OG can't win it but a RB can.
An NFL QB has to throw the ball. It is why the option, the wishbone, the Wildcat and every run-heavy offense ends up failing in anything other than a situational capacity.
Great - Jackson was able to run against 4 of the worst defenses in the league. And when a team with a good defense adjusted - well, we saw the result. Tommy Maddox went to bed last night thinking he had just shed a giant albatross.
I dont think Jackson is Tebow. He's somewhere in the middle. I dont think he'll be great but he has a spot in this league. Dont think he'll ever be a franchise qb though.
It's fun to analyze, but using QB play on a single day in January to make assumptions that apply to what the Giants should do at the position is limited.
And before we write him off as a passer, he had a 7.1 YPA...so it's not like he was inefficient. That's better than what Flacco was giving them, and it's in line with other guys in the league. And most of those guys aren't giving you the running yardage Jackson does.
Running the ball is always going to have to be part of Jackson's game in order for him to be an effective QB. That's why Baltimore should keep doing what they're doing. He's never going to be a great pocket passer, but he doesn't have to be.
The guy went 2 literal hours between completing passes at one point in the game.
Tebow won 7 games AND he won a playoff game and I had to listen to all of this same nonsense back then, too.
It's not sustainable. You have to be able to throw the football in the playoffs.
He looked utterly useless against a team that game-planned to stop the run and had a decent defense.
The Giants were worse than their record showed this year. I hope the front office and ownership realize that. This team is no closer to competing today than they were at this time last year.
Start with DE's this year. Get a QB next year and pray he's a franchise level player.
I'm willing to punt next year. Mostly because I see zero chance of being over .500. If punting next year means they are a lot closer to actually contending in the future, I'm all for it. But they can't do it half assed. And they can't make a huge mistake by extending Eli. That shouldnt even be considered.
Ironically, it was also their undoing - they had no answer when the Chargers stopped the run.
The more tape teams have and the more they figure out the keys, the less effective this will be. The greatest advantage Baltimore had in doing this mid-season was that teams had no tape on it and they were playing a different game with Flacco - so the amount of prep work they could do that week was very limited.
Going into next season, it's an entirely different ballgame. Every single DC is going to look at how the Chargers used 7 DB's, sometimes loaded the box with 9 players, and basically told Jackson "throw it or you aren't getting a first down"... on most drives, he couldn't. He didn't start completing passes until LAC moved into more of a prevent shell.
I don't know why you guys keep falling for these gimmicky offenses. They never last. If you can't throw the football in the NFL, you won't win. You cannot play one dimensional football in the playoffs.
It's also no easier to construct a team this way than it is any other way. Going with the cheap system QB puts the onus on management to field a team with a top flight defense and offensive line so that you can play the ball control, TOP-heavy game you need to for this to be effective at all.
He looked utterly useless against a team that game-planned to stop the run and had a decent defense.
And if he continues to look useless next year I'll concede that it might not work out for him and Baltimore running that offense. But in the meantime, he's a 21 year old rookie QB that is 6-2 as a starter. Had he done that for the Giants this place would be doing backflips.
That seems logical.
But he deserves credit for helping rescue his teams season. He had a big part in that.
Giants fans on here like to hammer him for one game but get their pom poms out and think this team can contend next year and use being competitive in a lot of games this year as evidence.
People here are totally delusional about what this team is going to be next year. Just like they were going into this year. Anyone who expected this team to be even decent this year was smoking crack. They'll fool themselves into believing it next year too. Fans doing that is fine, but it's a problem if the front office does the same thing.
The Giants were worse than their record showed this year. I hope the front office and ownership realize that. This team is no closer to competing today than they were at this time last year.
Start with DE's this year. Get a QB next year and pray he's a franchise level player.
I'm willing to punt next year. Mostly because I see zero chance of being over .500. If punting next year means they are a lot closer to actually contending in the future, I'm all for it. But they can't do it half assed. And they can't make a huge mistake by extending Eli. That shouldnt even be considered.
Jackson played shit defenses and a lot of the Giants winning was a mirage. People that point to the Bears game like it means anything don't know what they are talking about. Any degen would tell you bet the Giants all day in that spot, definition of trap game.
The Giants season was over before Halloween. They played with zero pressure on them for most of the 2nd half. The second they played with any pressure, they completely shit the bed in the 2nd half against Philadelphia.
The Giants suck. What they did in the 2nd half against backup QBs and with their season already over doesnt mean much to me. Especially when they have no future right now at QB. If they were a team with a young QB that was the future and he got valuable experience at the end of the year it might mean something to me, but what they did down the stretch this year means zero to me. They need better players everywhere.
The Ravens were 4-5. They were right on the line of being the 2nd wild Card at that time. And as it is, they snuck into the playoffs with a huge defensive stand in Cleveland.
You guys are making it sound like the started the way the Colts or Texans did.
Some of these arguments make no sense. There's no logic.
Arc, I am not a huge Jackson supporter. I dont believe he's going to be a franchise level QB and would not trade Barkley for him in a million years.
I have an issue with people thinking the NFL is changing and you dont need a franchise level QB anymore.
A franchise QB hides a lot of weaknesses.
But he deserves credit for helping rescue his teams season. He had a big part in that.
Giants fans on here like to hammer him for one game but get their pom poms out and think this team can contend next year and use being competitive in a lot of games this year as evidence.
People here are totally delusional about what this team is going to be next year. Just like they were going into this year. Anyone who expected this team to be even decent this year was smoking crack. They'll fool themselves into believing it next year too. Fans doing that is fine, but it's a problem if the front office does the same thing.
I don't think I've seen anyone on BBI claim the Giants are going to be good next year. Almost every acknowledges that this team has a need for major talent upgrades especially along the OL, LB, safety, and corner. The issue here is that people want to act as if Eli is the worst QB in the league will lauding bad to mediocre performances across the board this weekend. Then Britt posts a video showing Eli doing all the things he allegedly cannot do relative to these other QBs and it's dismissed out of hand. I don;t think anyone, including dep, thinks Eli is a top 10 QB. But some can legitimately argue that he is between 12 and 18. And with Barkley and a good OL and an offenses that centers on SB and play action, I believe that this offense can succeed as shown by the performance the last half of the year against qualify defenses, like Chi, Colts, and Dallas.
Some of these arguments make no sense. There's no logic.
The jury is still out on Jax. Forecasting that what we see with him now is going to be same going forward is lazy. He was the youngest QB ever to start a playoff game.
Here is the most important thing the Ravens did for Jax this year - they threw him into the deep end of the pool and he got valuable experience. That is huge. If they can now parlay that into molding his passing skills then they have a real weapon on their hands. Granted, that is a big IF...
Arc, I am not a huge Jackson supporter. I dont believe he's going to be a franchise level QB and would not trade Barkley for him in a million years.
I have an issue with people thinking the NFL is changing and you dont need a franchise level QB anymore.
A franchise QB hides a lot of weaknesses.
They do, but the other elements still typically need to be there.
The Giants never would have won in 2011 without the defense picking up. Eli carried them to a lot of wins during the year and covered a lot of warts - but without the defense clicking at the right time, we never go on that run.
GB finally missed the playoffs this year because the roster around Rodgers has been deteriorating for a while and he can't cover it all up anymore.
QB is still the most important position on the team - I don't believe in treating it as fungible. A lot of the Giants' future is going to hinge on who Eli's successor is. But that doesn't mean Barkley can't be a major part of the turnaround.
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So, we are going to argue that prioritizing RB is a bad strategy because a team hasn't won with their best player being a RB since Faulk.. and then in the same breath, we're going to put our faith in a QB who can't pass, and say it's a strategy the Ravens should continue to employ despite the fact that passers as limited as Jackson is NEVER win.
Some of these arguments make no sense. There's no logic.
The jury is still out on Jax. Forecasting that what we see with him now is going to be same going forward is lazy. He was the youngest QB ever to start a playoff game.
Here is the most important thing the Ravens did for Jax this year - they threw him into the deep end of the pool and he got valuable experience. That is huge. If they can now parlay that into molding his passing skills then they have a real weapon on their hands. Granted, that is a big IF...
How many QB's in the NFL have gone from what Jackson is as a passer right now to proficient? How many have won Championships?
I'd argue it's more lazy to assume improvement to happen in a fashion we've basically never seen before. It's wishful thinking.
And before we write him off as a passer, he had a 7.1 YPA...so it's not like he was inefficient. That's better than what Flacco was giving them, and it's in line with other guys in the league. And most of those guys aren't giving you the running yardage Jackson does.
Running the ball is always going to have to be part of Jackson's game in order for him to be an effective QB. That's why Baltimore should keep doing what they're doing. He's never going to be a great pocket passer, but he doesn't have to be.
Just one poor game? How do you define poor? The guy averaged 1.4 fumbles/game in the games he started. 11 times in the 7 games he started, and they were extremely lucky to recover 4 of them. That DOESN'T include the 3 he had yesterday. And how did the game end for them again?
People (rightfully) kill Eli for his fumbling all the time. His career high is 13 over 16 games. Lamar Jackson's pace this year was 23 over 16, and he'd be extremely lucky to repeat the fantastic recovery percentage the team had.
And the majority of these guys struggled to do one thing this weekend....
Throw the ball.
One game, one weekend. BFD. And two great defense - the Ravens and Bears - were at home.
A great running game doesn't cover up many weaknesses. It's a lot easier to build a team with a top QB than it is a top RB. I would never even consider drafting a running back number 2 and maybe there will be the one exception every blue moon, but you'd be better off in the long run if you simply stuck to that rule of thumb.
I'd feel better about the Giants future if they had Bradley Chubb instead of Barkley right now. I would be a lot more confident that I could find a good running back late in the draft than I would a really good pass rusher late in the draft.