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PFF's top Rated Giants Players in 2018

mittenedman : 1/7/2019 3:05 pm
(minimum 500 snaps)

1. WR Odell Beckham Jr - 90.0
2. ED Olivier Vernon - 86.3
3. RB Saquon Barkley - 85.9
4. DI Dalvin Tomlinson - 78.9
5. T Nate Solder - 74.2

Honorable Mention:

Snacks - 89.9 (traded)
Evan Engram - 76.5

---------------

And a PFF tweet:

Matt Stopsky
@PFF_Stopsky
All of this Vernon hate is confusing. If you think 7 sacks, 46 pressures & 22 stops in 11 games makes him bad/invisible then your expectation of good is unrealistic or you aren't watching.

Additionally 5.5 of his 7 sacks were against Playoff teams. And he was playing through injury.

---------------

I gotta say - interesting on Dalvin Tomlinson. I believe his mom passed away this year which could have affected his concentration as well. Apologies if I'm incorrect but his gloves had RIP MOM written on them all year, plus a midseason position switch. And something still bugs me about trading our best defensive player for a 5th - he must have been really malicious in the lockerroom.

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Vernon is a productive player  
hitdog42 : 1/7/2019 3:15 pm : link
on the field
he is not a game wrecker though and he is paid that type of money (and has been hurt).
The problem with Vernon is the expectation that comes with his contrac  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/7/2019 3:16 pm : link
Vernon is what he always has been, an elite edge setter who can pressure the QB a bit. Vernon has a place on defense where he is like the 3rd best pass rusher, not the number 1. The problem is Jerry Reese gave an elite pass rushing contract to a player that isn't an elite pass rusher out of desperation.
Evan Engram - 76.5  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 1/7/2019 3:17 pm : link
He was listed as one of PFF's biggest risers this year. I think he was second in growth year over year in all the NFL.
RE: I don't get..  
Anakim : 1/7/2019 3:17 pm : link
In comment 14252426 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the Vernon hate either, but his fragility to go with his price tag makes for a tough situation


A lot of is due to those stupid, boneheaded penalties
Do they count how many times he crashed inside and lost contain...  
JCin332 : 1/7/2019 3:18 pm : link
Seemed to happen a lot...opposing team frequently broke big runs to his side...
Vernon  
ryanmkeane : 1/7/2019 3:18 pm : link
was headed for a good year and then got injured. It is what it is....but that seems to be par for the course for him. Always wanting more out of him regarding games played and plays made. That being said, he's really productive when right
I'm sure  
McNally's_Nuts : 1/7/2019 3:18 pm : link
Reese was betting on Vernon getting better and better as he entered his prime.

He's just been hurt a lot and the money doesn't match the production. That's not Vernon's fault.
I remember  
mittenedman : 1/7/2019 3:20 pm : link
Vernon's first preseason here....wow. He looked like Michael Strahan. Wish he could get back to that level of play.
Vernon is probably better than he showed this season  
bigbluescot : 1/7/2019 3:25 pm : link
high ankle sprains can be tricky, and he seemed to be improving late in the season.

but he's never going to be worth the money he's being paid. I suppose the question is do the Giants have enough in the cupboard to cut him loose
I can't take PFF seriously on anything.  
Britt in VA : 1/7/2019 3:27 pm : link
.
Vernon is a good player,  
Pete in MD : 1/7/2019 3:36 pm : link
just not worth his contract. The Giants paid him hoping he would go from a good player to an elite player. He was still pretty young when they signed him so there was potential for him to get better. He pretty much stayed the good player he was but also got injured a few times.
PFF has Ezekiel Elliot ranked as the  
CromartiesKid21 : 1/7/2019 3:38 pm : link
#30 RB for the year. #1 is Derrick Henry
Vernon ahead of Saquon?  
Heisenberg : 1/7/2019 3:41 pm : link
To me, if you're developing a numeric rating model, that's one result that should make you question your assumptions. They play completely different positions but if you have a scale that's supposed to grade players and you end up with Vernon being better than SB, that is a PROBLEM.

This is not to say that Vernon is bad.
Vernon is ranked ahead of Barkley?  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/7/2019 3:41 pm : link
Just hard to understand what they are looking at.
Again..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/7/2019 3:43 pm : link
trying to understand PFF's rationale is like trying to understand the appeal Germans have for The Hoff.

It is a thoroughly laughable methodology that really should never be referenced.
Also, in  
Pete in MD : 1/7/2019 3:55 pm : link
defending their methodology, they call-out why it's flawed. They employ multiple people who watch every snap and grade players on what they believe that player should be doing on each play. So, the ratings are subjective with numerous different people analyzing each player and there's a good amount of guessing going on.
Sounds pretty indefensible...  
JCin332 : 1/7/2019 3:58 pm : link
..
RE: Do they count how many times he crashed inside and lost contain...  
JohnnyFlowers : 1/7/2019 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14252468 JCin332 said:
Quote:
Seemed to happen a lot...opposing team frequently broke big runs to his side...


If he is supposed to crash inside then somebody else has contain...this is why PFF is bullshit..they don't know the assignment
RE: Vernon is ranked ahead of Barkley?  
JohnnyFlowers : 1/7/2019 4:05 pm : link
In comment 14252540 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
Just hard to understand what they are looking at.


From PFF FAQ:

Why is Player X rated so low or so high in your rankings?
Last Updated: Jul 02, 2018 04:35PM EDT
This is easily the most asked question we get and so it is going to get pride of place at the top of our FAQ. The first thing to note about our “rankings” is that they are not rankings in the traditional sense. We don’t measure talent; we’re not telling you who the best players are. Our rankings are more of a performance evaluation, and a reflection of how efficiently a player made plays in the time he was on the field.

The second thing to take into consideration is that Player X really might be that good or that bad. Just because a player made the Pro Bowl last season doesn’t mean he played well — in fact, he may have played very poorly. NFL coaches don’t watch nearly the amount of tape on other players (certainly not ones they’re not going to play that season) as conventional wisdom would have you believe. When people watch a football game they tend to create a mental highlight reel, remembering a few of the best and a few of the worst plays, and then (based on those few) guessing the overall performance. That is rarely accurate. We are able to go back after the games and grade people on a play-by-play basis, totting up the numbers as we go. Just because a player was largely anonymous during the game doesn’t mean he played poorly. If he edged out a win in every block he made, he could well have had an excellent game overall, even if he didn’t leave anybody on the turf from a pancake block.

Similarly, just because Player X isn’t a household name, don’t discount the possibility that he is having an excellent season that is passing by the notice of most people.

A good case study from the 2009 season is 49ers TE Vernon Davis. Listen to anybody talk about him and they’ll point to his league-leading TD count and proclaim him an All-Pro TE.

Here are some of the things we would say about Vernon Davis and how he rates in our system:

Blocking plays a big part in our grade:
With the size/strength ratio that man has there’s no way on earth that Davis couldn’t block effectively if he used good technique and put in the effort. When we initially graded him in some of the early games of the 2008 season it was apparent he had all the skills but just didn’t seem to care at times; he would make some difficult blocks but then miss a whole host of easy ones. When coach Mike Singletary took over and had “words,” it seemed to light a fire under Davis and for the last half of the season he was very good indeed. We expected this to continue but, after he began getting plaudits for his receiving, his blocking seemed to regress almost to a worse position than previously. Regarding what coaches and writers say on the matter, we take it with a pinch of salt. This is because coaches hardly ever tell the truth and most writers don’t have the time to analyze every player in detail to come to an accurate conclusion.

Penalties Matter:
Most people will forgive players these but when you see the stats for how a penalty effects the chance of a drive progressing, why should they? Davis gave up more penalties than all but three players in ’09 (all of them offensive tackles) and twice as many as most TEs. This has to be taken into account.

Pure Receiving:
We don’t grade people on how many yards they get because in a lot of cases that’s irrelevant. Many of TEs could probably get 1,000 yards if you threw to them enough. Our system is not impressed by dropped passes (13 is a ridiculous number and again league-leading), yardage that doesn’t pick up a first down or at least come close and yardage in garbage time. Frankly when you compare him to Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzalez or Dallas Clark as a receiver he’s wasn’t in the same zip code; he may well be soon but not last year. There are maybe another half dozen TEs that could pick up the same type of numbers as Davis playing in his place but would do it without screwing up as much as he did in ‘09.

Overall Rankings:
At the moment these simply weigh everything equally. We believe blocking is a vital part of a TEs responsibility in the NFL and so players that struggle with this will be brought down in the overall rankings. We acknowledge that not everybody believes the same thing and so there is nothing to stop people sorting the columns by the attribute that they believe holds the most weight and viewing them that way.
Problem with Vernon's numbers  
WideRight : 1/7/2019 4:44 pm : link
almost none of them mattered. Giants were in too deep of a hole to get out of by the time he started
What about Hernandez?  
Simms11 : 1/7/2019 4:46 pm : link
He has to have good numbers? But then again its PFF!
RE: PFF..  
Toth029 : 1/7/2019 4:52 pm : link
In comment 14252444 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is complete bullshit.

I'm not even addressing the ratings anymore as they are useless.

Barkley not being on their rookie teams tells you anything you need to know on their analysis.

They hated Engram last year notably for his drops and blocking. His rating is a lot higher, but he still isn't a good blocker and drops more than you'd hope.
RE: I don't get..  
adamg : 1/7/2019 4:54 pm : link
In comment 14252426 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the Vernon hate either, but his fragility to go with his price tag makes for a tough situation
There's a small contingent of racist Giants fans who think kneeling makes Vernon a bad person. The larger portion of haters just seems to undervalue him.
Olivier Vernon is a *good* player, when healthy.  
Brown Recluse : 1/7/2019 4:56 pm : link
but...

1. He's paid like a great player, and...

2. He's never healthy.

PFF are a bunch of Nerd Turds  
DonnieD89 : 1/7/2019 4:56 pm : link
and I will take any of their ratings or stats with a grain of salt. I don't care about stats. I care about winning.
Re: Tomlinson's mom  
regulator : 1/7/2019 4:57 pm : link
she passed away in June 2011 but clearly has been a driving force in his life.

The bigger thing, IMO, was his position change to the 0/1 technique when Snacks was traded to DET. He performed admirably and I thought improved as the season went on, but needs to continue to add mass to play that position. Certainly a dropoff after Snacks, though.
draft-time article - ( New Window )
RE: RE: I don't get..  
Toth029 : 1/7/2019 5:02 pm : link
In comment 14252682 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 14252426 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the Vernon hate either, but his fragility to go with his price tag makes for a tough situation

There's a small contingent of racist Giants fans who think kneeling makes Vernon a bad person. The larger portion of haters just seems to undervalue him.

Or maybe he's just hurt a lot and is getting paid among the top edge rushers in the league.
How many times a game did Vernon lose containment???  
Rick in Dallas : 1/7/2019 5:08 pm : link
Opposing teams took advantage of his lack of containment on edge all season. It was mind numbing!!!!!
Once Vernon hits 7 sacks  
ghost718 : 1/7/2019 5:12 pm : link
It's time for a PFF Office Party
I believe they changed that FAQ.  
Pete in MD : 1/7/2019 5:21 pm : link
I could be wrong but I don’t remember them saying the ratings weren’t really ratings before.
Sorry  
Pete in MD : 1/7/2019 5:22 pm : link
Rankings not ratings
A lot of my hatred for the guy is he could have helped  
The_Boss : 1/7/2019 6:11 pm : link
Earlier in the season but was hurt. By the time he got back, the season was over.
RE: Again..  
Thegratefulhead : 1/7/2019 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14252548 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
trying to understand PFF's rationale is like trying to understand the appeal Germans have for The Hoff.

It is a thoroughly laughable methodology that really should never be referenced.
That is fucking funny. You are one the people on this forum I would love to have a beer with and talk sports.
question  
giantfan2000 : 1/7/2019 6:29 pm : link
where is Eli 's rating?
That  
mdthedream : 1/7/2019 9:43 pm : link
is a joke. Barkley is by far the best rated player its not even close. Hell the kid is one of the best players in the league.
Bah..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/7/2019 9:52 pm : link
Quote:
That is fucking funny. You are one the people on this forum I would love to have a beer with and talk sports.


If we have a beer, any subject is on the table, including the oddities of the German culture, why Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly agreed to do "Holmes and Watson", and if ganglionic cysts on a near 50 year old guy's foot should cause one to exhibit signs of hypochondria.

Scratch the last one - that's no fun to talk about while drinking!
RE: RE: I don't get..  
section125 : 1/7/2019 9:53 pm : link
In comment 14252682 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 14252426 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the Vernon hate either, but his fragility to go with his price tag makes for a tough situation

There's a small contingent of racist Giants fans who think kneeling makes Vernon a bad person. The larger portion of haters just seems to undervalue him.


Yeah, that's it. Not that he loses contain a few times per game; rarely gets to the QB when it matters and makes some of the biggest boneheaded penalties at the worst time. No it is he kneels...

For $5 mill per he'd be ok. For $17 mill he's vastly over paid.
Soemtimes PFF can be clueless  
giantstock : 1/7/2019 9:53 pm : link
How can;t they understand it;s all about the injuries with this guy.

Simply clueless.

Just silly they take no account for it. .
Vernon is a very good player  
djm : 1/7/2019 10:48 pm : link
Fans hate him because of his salary. Nothing more to say.
RE: How many times a game did Vernon lose containment???  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/8/2019 2:19 am : link
In comment 14252702 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
Opposing teams took advantage of his lack of containment on edge all season. It was mind numbing!!!!!


You have to think his injury may be worse than is being let on. He's an elite edge setter and he definitely took a step back there this year.
Vernon sucks  
SHO'NUFF : 1/8/2019 2:55 am : link
period.
RE: A lot of my hatred for the guy is he could have helped  
Big Blue Blogger : 1/8/2019 6:00 am : link
The_Boss said:
Quote:
Earlier in the season but was hurt. By the time he got back, the season was over.
Ditto Evan Engram. The 2018 Giants were a thin team with enough good players to compete IF they had excellent luck with injuries. Overall, the team’s health wasn’t bad; I think the “games missed by starters” numbers are inflated by marginal guys like Halapio and Latimer. The killers, IMO, were Engram and Vernon. The month or so they missed, and the additional few weeks to round into form, rendered the second half of the season moot. Add the slow start by Solder (possibly injury-related, or maybe due to the mess all over the OL), and you had a team with too few good players already getting little or no help from several of the best.
RE: Re: Tomlinson's mom  
mittenedman : 1/8/2019 9:14 am : link
In comment 14252688 regulator said:
Quote:
she passed away in June 2011 but clearly has been a driving force in his life.

The bigger thing, IMO, was his position change to the 0/1 technique when Snacks was traded to DET. He performed admirably and I thought improved as the season went on, but needs to continue to add mass to play that position. Certainly a dropoff after Snacks, though. draft-time article - ( New Window )


Thanks regulator. I felt bad posting something I wasn't sure of.
I continue to be baffled at people who claim PFF is useless...  
lawguy9801 : 1/8/2019 11:55 am : link
....and dismiss it.

I'm sure there are some ratings that are off or may not accord with what the average TV viewer or game attendee (i.e. everyone on this thread) may perceive. But it's an objective -- albeit difficult -- attempt to grade every NFL player.

But don't NFL teams pay for their services? Shouldn't that suggest to the PFF naysayers that there is at least some value to what they do?

What would you pose as an alternative? Your half-drunk opinion watching one TV angle and a few highlights?

Unless you are analyzing the all-22 tape and assessing every player every week, I'll take PFF's opinion over yours.
Barkley's rating...  
x meadowlander : 1/8/2019 12:09 pm : link
...pass blocking and too many plays where he tried to make something happen instead of just hitting the hole.

Still, hard to believe he isn't the top-rated player on the team.
This has been discussed several times...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/8/2019 1:55 pm : link
NFL teams pay strictly for their stat compilation:

Quote:
But don't NFL teams pay for their services? Shouldn't that suggest to the PFF naysayers that there is at least some value to what they do?


Snap counts. Formation breakdowns. Personnel groupings. All irrefutable metrics

Not a single NFL team pay for their analysis on player's or their ratings.
RE: I continue to be baffled at people who claim PFF is useless...  
JOrthman : 1/8/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14254062 lawguy9801 said:
Quote:
....and dismiss it.

I'm sure there are some ratings that are off or may not accord with what the average TV viewer or game attendee (i.e. everyone on this thread) may perceive. But it's an objective -- albeit difficult -- attempt to grade every NFL player.

But don't NFL teams pay for their services? Shouldn't that suggest to the PFF naysayers that there is at least some value to what they do?

What would you pose as an alternative? Your half-drunk opinion watching one TV angle and a few highlights?

Unless you are analyzing the all-22 tape and assessing every player every week, I'll take PFF's opinion over yours.


Because anything beyond the items Fatman mentioned are complete subject conjecture without inside knowledge.
RE: RE: RE: I don't get..  
adamg : 1/8/2019 8:03 pm : link
In comment 14253224 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14252682 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 14252426 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the Vernon hate either, but his fragility to go with his price tag makes for a tough situation

There's a small contingent of racist Giants fans who think kneeling makes Vernon a bad person. The larger portion of haters just seems to undervalue him.



Yeah, that's it. Not that he loses contain a few times per game; rarely gets to the QB when it matters and makes some of the biggest boneheaded penalties at the worst time. No it is he kneels...

For $5 mill per he'd be ok. For $17 mill he's vastly over paid.


Did you read my comment or just respond in anger? I said a small contingent of fans. And they are here on games day in the game thread muttering about patriotism and bullshit. I wasn't talking about you.

The point of pay is fair. He likely is overpaid. But, he's still a top ER in the NFL. And that's worth a lot.
A big issue with PFF grades is  
.McL. : 1/8/2019 8:17 pm : link
That they are not situational...

A successful 8 yard slant play... The OL keeps the QB clean enough to make a good throw. The WR makes a good move gto get off the line clean and makes a good catch. Everbody on offense gets good grades right?

But...

Its a huge difference if it was 1st and 10 or 3rd and 10.

On 3rd and 10, that's a bad play. Maybe the WR didn't run deep enough. Maybe the QB should have held it longer to allow the routes to develop more. Maybe the OL needed to hold their blocks longer... Who knows, but it was a failure of a play, and doesn't deserve positive grades.
I like Vernon, but he's  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/8/2019 8:38 pm : link
overpaid & is often injured.
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