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Which of these Giants Off-Season strategies would you favor?

NYG27 : 1/8/2019 11:25 am
With the team's resources via Free Agency and the NFL Draft, it would be hard to address all the team needs in just one off-season. With the draft, you always go with best player available but if there are similar values on players, teams might lean one way if it addresses team needs.

There are many different possible ways the team could move but for this scenario, these are the only options to select from. If you had the ability to sign up for one of these options, which would you select...

1) Address the Offensive Line first and then defense: Use high end draft picks and sign free agents to get a new Center, RG, RT and a solid two way TE who can help out with the blocking and also be a threat in the passing game to compliment Engram.

In this scenario, Eli returns and given better pass protection, is able to improve on his production given the skill weapons the Giants have on offense. Finding the QB of the future would be pushed to 2020 which looks to have a better QB class than this year.

2) Address the Defense first and then offense: Giants spend big in free agency and use high end draft picks to get James Bettcher the weapons on defense to successfully run his defense.

In this scenario, Eli and the offense played a bit better in the second half of the season and ended up with a 4-4 record. Giants bring back Jamon Brown, maybe bring in cheap vets to contend with Halapio, Pulley and Chad Wheeler but overall the offense is similar to what it was this year. Finding the QB of the future would be pushed to 2020 which looks to have a better QB class than this year.

3) Address the QB of the Future in this years 2019 NFL Draft: Giants pick 6th overall in 2019 draft and would be in position to address that need. Especially since the 5 teams picking ahead of them, four are already set with young QBs, Cardinals (Rosen), 49ers (Garoppolo), Jets (Darnold) and Bucs (Winston, since their GM said he's returning as their starter).

In this scenario, only the Raiders are in a clear need at QB with Gruden wanting to move on from Carr. Not to mention how deep this draft is with defensive players, this might cause some of the QBs to drop down a bit. Not to mention the Giants might also be in position to trade up for a QB if they really are sold on one like the Jets did with Darnold. Which would most likely cost the Giants all their high end draft picks this year and possibly another second round pick in 2020 draft. (As an example, Jets gave up three 2nd round picks to move up from 6 to 3 last year)

Which of these Giants Off-Season strategies would you favor?

Offer the Bills a 1st and 2nd round draft pick for Josh Allen  
GeofromNJ : 1/8/2019 11:27 am : link
then sit back and enjoy the next ten years of Giants football
It depends on the talent available  
JonC : 1/8/2019 11:33 am : link
both via the draft and UFA.

A strategy based on positional upgrades is fine, but is the talent actually going to be out there or not.
RE: It depends on the talent available  
UberAlias : 1/8/2019 11:45 am : link
In comment 14253998 JonC said:
Quote:
both via the draft and UFA.

A strategy based on positional upgrades is fine, but is the talent actually going to be out there or not.
I completely agree. The three biggest components to sustained success is a strong GM/front office, head coach, and quality franchise QB. When you have the opportunity to land your franchise QB, you take it. That means not forcing it or reaching, but if you are within striking distance of one you have conviction on, you go out and get him. If not you wait and plan/prepare for the opportunity.
None of the above  
giants#1 : 1/8/2019 11:47 am : link
Though I'll defer to DG/PS on this year's QBs.

But to "fix the defense" they need to add an edge rusher, and there's little to no chance that the top ERs (Lawrence and Clowney) will hit the open market. I think the CB depth on this team is adequate, especially if they bring back BW Webb on a cheap deal. But Jenkins + Haley + Beal, etc is a workable group. So the big upgrades would be at ILB and FS which aren't typically "break-the-bank" type players.

Offensively, the only places I'm spending FA money is C-RG-RT, but unfortunately I think they'll look to bring back Brown and then make offers to Pulley and Halapio (both are RFAs).

So via the draft (assuming no QBs to their liking), I'm looking edge rusher in the 1st hopefully and then a RT in the 2nd, hopefully someone with the ability to slide over to LT in 2-3 years.

With the 4th/5th round picks, I'm looking for LB depth, OL depth (hopefully push Pulley/Halapio and/or Brown), DB/S depth and maybe a blocking TE with some athleticism and upside as a pass catcher. Though TE is only a need if they choose to cut Ellison for cap reasons.
RE: Offer the Bills a 1st and 2nd round draft pick for Josh Allen  
dep026 : 1/8/2019 11:47 am : link
In comment 14253985 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
then sit back and enjoy the next ten years of Giants football


Why do we need to trade with Buffalo to get Josh Allen.... he may fall to us in this draft?

Oh you mean, trade 2 first round picks for a guy we didnt want last year. Makes total sense.
Go for...  
M.S. : 1/8/2019 11:48 am : link

Ö#1.

A kick ass O-line will be our best defense, controlling the clock and the entire rhythm of the game.

If that happens, all our defenders will be perfectly positioned: on the bench enjoying the game!
RE: RE: Offer the Bills a 1st and 2nd round draft pick for Josh Allen  
M.S. : 1/8/2019 11:49 am : link
In comment 14254041 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14253985 GeofromNJ said:


Quote:


then sit back and enjoy the next ten years of Giants football



Why do we need to trade with Buffalo to get Josh Allen.... he may fall to us in this draft?

Oh you mean, trade 2 first round picks for a guy we didnt want last year. Makes total sense.


Josh Allen out of Kentucky is not making it to 6.

That's a guarantee.
If Haskins is there at #6  
Josh in the City : 1/8/2019 11:52 am : link
then I prefer strategy #3. I like his pocket presence and his arm is second to none. But this team also has a ton of needs on defense and a couple of pieces on the oline so I wouldn't sacrifice additional assets to move up this year (next yr's class is good so if we have to wait another yr then so be it).

If Haskins isn't available then I would prefer option #1. Get the oline squared away and then focus almost solely on rebuilding the defense.
With some moving parts possible,  
Beezer : 1/8/2019 12:01 pm : link
either of 1 or 2 for me.

I lean toward 2 but with the proviso that the O-line isn't just some cheap guys. The Giants need at LEAST one rock-solid FA or draft choice, center or on the right side.
I don't think it's one or the other  
Go Terps : 1/8/2019 12:02 pm : link
You can't control which talent is going to be available, and when it's going to be available. That's why all the people saying, "build up the lines and then get the QB" don't know what they're talking about.

A roster, or a portion of a roster, is never a finished product. You can't just say, "We're all set in Area A, so now let's go get help for Area B." The Giants are a bad team. They should be looking for help wherever they can guided by the goals and objectives they've established for what type of team they're trying to be.

There are two great quotes I always try to keep in mind when thinking about this topic:

John Madden: "In this league you're always moving forward or backward. You are never standing still."

Bill Belichick: "We aren't accumulating talent. We're building a team."
Doubt the Jints spend big on FA  
ChicagoMarty : 1/8/2019 12:03 pm : link
they seem to be pretty well salary capped strapped.

I would be tempted to grab ORT Williams with #6 if he is there to really upgrade the OL for both the run and pass protect prospective no matter who the qb may be.

DG seemed to be high on the return of Halapio to compete at C

So I think I would spend the majority of my draft picks after the first round on D.

ER and Safety really cry out for help.

Speedy lbs and corners can be had.

I suspect Eli returns for one last run and to fulfill the last year of his contract.

Taking this approach pushes off the qb decision until next year but optimizes the Giants prospects of filling many of the visible holes on the D.

This approach would provide the team with a very competitive team coming into the 2020 season. The salary cap should be more manageable by then which would allow DG maximum flexibility in addressing the qb situation via the draft, FA or trade.
Fix the defense unless you have a strong belief  
yatqb : 1/8/2019 12:05 pm : link
in an available QB. Even if you were to trade a 1 and 2 for a QB, I'd spend the majority of my remaining resources on fixing the defense.
RE: RE: Offer the Bills a 1st and 2nd round draft pick for Josh Allen  
GeofromNJ : 1/8/2019 12:07 pm : link
In comment 14254041 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14253985 GeofromNJ said:


Quote:


then sit back and enjoy the next ten years of Giants football



Why do we need to trade with Buffalo to get Josh Allen.... he may fall to us in this draft?

Oh you mean, trade 2 first round picks for a guy we didnt want last year. Makes total sense.

You may not have wanted him, but Shurmur did.
I'm hoping there's a quality RT in FA  
Phil in LA : 1/8/2019 12:12 pm : link
so we can then hit G and C starting in the second round and go pure BPA at 6.
Giants have ~$31M in cap space  
giants#1 : 1/8/2019 12:15 pm : link
which is roughly middle of the pack. Figure $15M for draft picks and an in-season margin, so they'd have ~$15M or so to spend right off the bat with Collins the only big UFA. A long term deal for him could be as little as $5-6M against the 2019 cap (see Beckham).

But they also have several huge decisions:
Eli - potential cap savings = $17M
Vernon - potential cap savings = $11.5M
Jenkins - potential cap savings = $7.75M
Ogletree - potential cap savings = $6.5M
Ellison - potential cap savings = $3.25M
Martin - potential cap savings = $1.68M
Stewart - potential cap savings = $2.5M
Barwin - potential cap savings = $1.5M

Potential Total Savings: $51.7M

The potential ~$80M in cap space would put them among the top 5-8 teams (depending on other moves).

Now I doubt all of these players will be cut, but they can basically create enough room to sign anyone and I'd argue the bottom 3 could be cut tomorrow and no one would notice.
This is the order of priorities but how the cards fall  
MotownGIANTS : 1/8/2019 12:18 pm : link
OL
DL
FS
CB depth
LB
WR (true #2)
I'd cut every one of those guys except possibly Ogeltree  
Go Terps : 1/8/2019 12:19 pm : link
I think he can play, even if he is overpriced.
This is the order of priorities but how the cards fall  
MotownGIANTS : 1/8/2019 12:19 pm : link
may not allow it to happen in that sequence
OL
DL
FS
CB depth
LB
WR (true #2)
RE: Giants have ~$31M in cap space  
Now Mike in MD : 1/8/2019 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14254118 giants#1 said:
Quote:
which is roughly middle of the pack. Figure $15M for draft picks and an in-season margin, so they'd have ~$15M or so to spend right off the bat with Collins the only big UFA. A long term deal for him could be as little as $5-6M against the 2019 cap (see Beckham).

But they also have several huge decisions:
Eli - potential cap savings = $17M
Vernon - potential cap savings = $11.5M
Jenkins - potential cap savings = $7.75M
Ogletree - potential cap savings = $6.5M
Ellison - potential cap savings = $3.25M
Martin - potential cap savings = $1.68M
Stewart - potential cap savings = $2.5M
Barwin - potential cap savings = $1.5M

Potential Total Savings: $51.7M

The potential ~$80M in cap space would put them among the top 5-8 teams (depending on other moves).

Now I doubt all of these players will be cut, but they can basically create enough room to sign anyone and I'd argue the bottom 3 could be cut tomorrow and no one would notice.


I don't know why we discuss the cap savings with Eli. Any vet QB we will sign will probably be at least 17 mill. SO there really isn't a savings because the QB position will have to be funded to approximately that amount anyway. And any vet who signs for 17 mill is going to be middle of the road at best and learning a new offense, so there is a more than likely chance that QB will be worse than what Eli was this year.
Now Mike in MD  
Go Terps : 1/8/2019 12:24 pm : link
So don't sign a vet QB. I'm going to cut and paste what I posted elsewhere regarding what our options should be at QB:

Quote:
I know many say that there aren't a lot of QB options out there, but that's not true. I see 3 viable ways to start 2019:

1. Lauletta is the starter
2. Draft a QB and make him the starter
3. Acquire a backup QB currently on another roster that is making less than $1M. These guys are all over the league. Here are some names to start:

Jacoby Brissett
Kyle Sloter
DeShone Kizer
Mason Rudolph
Josh Dobbs
Jeff Driskel
Taysom Hill
Nick Mullens

The point is, there are many options. It's just going to require some creativity and the front office getting out of its comfort zone for once.


The options I've listed above could see us enter 2019 with a drastically reduced QB cap hit, which is a huge team building advantage.
RE: RE: Giants have ~$31M in cap space  
MotownGIANTS : 1/8/2019 12:26 pm : link
In comment 14254129 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 14254118 giants#1 said:


Quote:


which is roughly middle of the pack. Figure $15M for draft picks and an in-season margin, so they'd have ~$15M or so to spend right off the bat with Collins the only big UFA. A long term deal for him could be as little as $5-6M against the 2019 cap (see Beckham).

But they also have several huge decisions:
Eli - potential cap savings = $17M
Vernon - potential cap savings = $11.5M
Jenkins - potential cap savings = $7.75M
Ogletree - potential cap savings = $6.5M
Ellison - potential cap savings = $3.25M
Martin - potential cap savings = $1.68M
Stewart - potential cap savings = $2.5M
Barwin - potential cap savings = $1.5M

Potential Total Savings: $51.7M

The potential ~$80M in cap space would put them among the top 5-8 teams (depending on other moves).

Now I doubt all of these players will be cut, but they can basically create enough room to sign anyone and I'd argue the bottom 3 could be cut tomorrow and no one would notice.



I don't know why we discuss the cap savings with Eli. Any vet QB we will sign will probably be at least 17 mill. SO there really isn't a savings because the QB position will have to be funded to approximately that amount anyway. And any vet who signs for 17 mill is going to be middle of the road at best and learning a new offense, so there is a more than likely chance that QB will be worse than what Eli was this year.


1st let me say I ONLY want Eli back act a reduced rate but as stated a vet that may be able to do something will cost and set us back so best bet is to bite the bullet fix all things non-QB and ride the INITIAL plan Eli finishes the contract out or retire.
RE: Now Mike in MD  
Now Mike in MD : 1/8/2019 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14254135 Go Terps said:
Quote:
So don't sign a vet QB. I'm going to cut and paste what I posted elsewhere regarding what our options should be at QB:



Quote:


I know many say that there aren't a lot of QB options out there, but that's not true. I see 3 viable ways to start 2019:

1. Lauletta is the starter
2. Draft a QB and make him the starter
3. Acquire a backup QB currently on another roster that is making less than $1M. These guys are all over the league. Here are some names to start:

Jacoby Brissett
Kyle Sloter
DeShone Kizer
Mason Rudolph
Josh Dobbs
Jeff Driskel
Taysom Hill
Nick Mullens

The point is, there are many options. It's just going to require some creativity and the front office getting out of its comfort zone for once.



The options I've listed above could see us enter 2019 with a drastically reduced QB cap hit, which is a huge team building advantage.


Most of those QBs fall into two categories -- not available (eg Hill and Rudolph and likely Mullens) or guys you have absolutely no idea whether they would be better than Eli or significantly worse. To simply say, "get these guys. It's that easy," is IMO whitewashing things
RE: I'd cut every one of those guys except possibly Ogeltree  
giants#1 : 1/8/2019 12:29 pm : link
In comment 14254127 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I think he can play, even if he is overpriced.


After the bottom 3, he's the first I'd cut. Average ILB being paid like a top 3 one.

Jenkins would probably be the hardest cut for me and would come down to how he is in the locker room. But he's still an above average to good CB and its a premium position.

2nd hardest cut is Ellison. Solid 2 way player, but he's overpaid for what he brings.
Don't lock into stupid strategies way too early in the process  
Bob in Newburgh : 1/8/2019 12:29 pm : link
Combine and pro days will give a much clearer picture of what our 6th pick might actually be worth.

There is no sense forcing the QB issue unless you absolutely love the attributes of your target.

Because of SB's talent, we should know that we are going to be facing a steady diet of 8 in the box and cover 1 on early downs. QB must have the arm to go over the top, and the ability to avoid the rush of those 8 who are probably coming across as soon as they read pass.

Needless to say, I am not a Lauletta fan, nor am I a fan of a front office which would draft him after taking SB as a foundational pick.
I will  
Photoguy : 1/8/2019 12:30 pm : link
let DG and PS handle this. I know nothing.
RE: RE: Giants have ~$31M in cap space  
giants#1 : 1/8/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14254129 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 14254118 giants#1 said:


Quote:


which is roughly middle of the pack. Figure $15M for draft picks and an in-season margin, so they'd have ~$15M or so to spend right off the bat with Collins the only big UFA. A long term deal for him could be as little as $5-6M against the 2019 cap (see Beckham).

But they also have several huge decisions:
Eli - potential cap savings = $17M
Vernon - potential cap savings = $11.5M
Jenkins - potential cap savings = $7.75M
Ogletree - potential cap savings = $6.5M
Ellison - potential cap savings = $3.25M
Martin - potential cap savings = $1.68M
Stewart - potential cap savings = $2.5M
Barwin - potential cap savings = $1.5M

Potential Total Savings: $51.7M

The potential ~$80M in cap space would put them among the top 5-8 teams (depending on other moves).

Now I doubt all of these players will be cut, but they can basically create enough room to sign anyone and I'd argue the bottom 3 could be cut tomorrow and no one would notice.



I don't know why we discuss the cap savings with Eli. Any vet QB we will sign will probably be at least 17 mill. SO there really isn't a savings because the QB position will have to be funded to approximately that amount anyway. And any vet who signs for 17 mill is going to be middle of the road at best and learning a new offense, so there is a more than likely chance that QB will be worse than what Eli was this year.


1. I included him for reference

2. IF they cut him, I'd personally be against bringing in a vet unless it was a Fitzpatrick like deal ($3-4M IIRC).
RE: Now Mike in MD  
giants#1 : 1/8/2019 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14254135 Go Terps said:
Quote:
So don't sign a vet QB. I'm going to cut and paste what I posted elsewhere regarding what our options should be at QB:



Quote:


I know many say that there aren't a lot of QB options out there, but that's not true. I see 3 viable ways to start 2019:

1. Lauletta is the starter
2. Draft a QB and make him the starter
3. Acquire a backup QB currently on another roster that is making less than $1M. These guys are all over the league. Here are some names to start:

Jacoby Brissett
Kyle Sloter
DeShone Kizer
Mason Rudolph
Josh Dobbs
Jeff Driskel
Taysom Hill
Nick Mullens

The point is, there are many options. It's just going to require some creativity and the front office getting out of its comfort zone for once.



The options I've listed above could see us enter 2019 with a drastically reduced QB cap hit, which is a huge team building advantage.


Except trading for those players costs picks (a huge team building advantage). Plus they are closer to UFA than a rookie would be, thus minimizing the benefit of the reduced QB cap hit.
giants#1  
Go Terps : 1/8/2019 12:36 pm : link
It's an option, if there's a guy we like. And none of them is going to cost a 1st or 2nd.

If we're trading a 4th rounder because we like one of those QBs, I'm fine with that.

Like I said above, the point is there are options beyond paying Eli or his vet replacement $20M+. I'm not in favor of cutting Eli just to pay Flacco or Foles.
I doubt its a serious option  
giants#1 : 1/8/2019 12:43 pm : link
at least hope not.

Brisset, Driskel, Sloter, Hill, Mullens have 1 year remaining.
Kizer, Dobbs 2 years
Rudolph is likely the heir to Big Ben

So you'd be giving up a pick for a QB that may not be any better than Lauletta (price would be a lot more than a 4th if they had proven anything), and not even gaining several years of cost control with most of them...
I was surprised the Giants didn't draft Rudolph in the 3rd round  
JonC : 1/8/2019 12:48 pm : link
It suggests how strongly they liked Carter for the edge, but I would've picked MR.
RE: I doubt its a serious option  
Go Terps : 1/8/2019 12:59 pm : link
In comment 14254181 giants#1 said:
Quote:
at least hope not.

Brisset, Driskel, Sloter, Hill, Mullens have 1 year remaining.
Kizer, Dobbs 2 years
Rudolph is likely the heir to Big Ben

So you'd be giving up a pick for a QB that may not be any better than Lauletta (price would be a lot more than a 4th if they had proven anything), and not even gaining several years of cost control with most of them...


Even if a guy comes in and plays well for a year, is he going to command the $20M premium on the open market? Seems doubtful. And even if he does, we get a comp pick to make up for the one we traded for him. Seems low risk/high reward.
RE: RE: RE: Offer the Bills a 1st and 2nd round draft pick for Josh Allen  
TommyWiseau : 1/8/2019 1:03 pm : link
In comment 14254050 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 14254041 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 14253985 GeofromNJ said:


Quote:


then sit back and enjoy the next ten years of Giants football



Why do we need to trade with Buffalo to get Josh Allen.... he may fall to us in this draft?

Oh you mean, trade 2 first round picks for a guy we didnt want last year. Makes total sense.



Josh Allen out of Kentucky is not making it to 6.

That's a guarantee.


Agreed, and I would be happy if the Giants moved up a slot or two to grab him. He is going to be a top 5 pass rusher for many many years
would only make 2 big money moves  
Dankbeerman : 1/8/2019 1:07 pm : link
via FA and think the 31 should be enough. dont need to shed pieces to add.though some like stewart and barwin should be cut.

Need a top money RT or Edge rusher added the other taken #6. Then need to spend on a Saftey Collins or other.

after that its about fit. Including Jamon Brown we should be able to add 3 or 4 guys to fill some holes then focus on the draft.
Ask again after  
Beer Man : 1/8/2019 1:25 pm : link
Free Agency and when we know what DG's/PS' plans are for Eli
I thought Gruden said he's committed to Carr?  
PatersonPlank : 1/8/2019 1:32 pm : link
I'd like to trade for Carr or Stafford frankly. Known NFL quality started vs Draft crapshoot
Generally speaking  
allstarjim : 1/8/2019 1:46 pm : link
I would say option 2. I definitely believe that using high draft picks on the defense is the way to go. In particular, I believe they will be in position to draft an edge rusher, and should do so. I would hope they could trade down and acquire more assets. Getting an extra 2020 first round pick as well as an extra pick or two in this draft would be ideal.

The Giants' critical needs on the defense are getting corners and rushing the passer. Sure, another athletic cover linebacker would be great, but a pass rushing 3-4 DE, an edge rusher, and 2 more DBs could get this team to a level where they can really compete for the division.

They need to try and build what the Bears have with that defense. I'm not saying go back to a 4-3 but just playmakers at every level.

Should be a lot of mid-round picks with which to invest on some OL help.
RE: RE: I doubt its a serious option  
giants#1 : 1/8/2019 2:15 pm : link
In comment 14254199 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14254181 giants#1 said:


Quote:


at least hope not.

Brisset, Driskel, Sloter, Hill, Mullens have 1 year remaining.
Kizer, Dobbs 2 years
Rudolph is likely the heir to Big Ben

So you'd be giving up a pick for a QB that may not be any better than Lauletta (price would be a lot more than a 4th if they had proven anything), and not even gaining several years of cost control with most of them...



Even if a guy comes in and plays well for a year, is he going to command the $20M premium on the open market? Seems doubtful. And even if he does, we get a comp pick to make up for the one we traded for him. Seems low risk/high reward.


Getting a comp pick for him means you're starting over in your search, which seems short sighted/idiotic.

And plenty of guys have gotten $20M+ after 1 season of strong play (or less). Foles, Garoppolo, Bortles to name a few recent ones.
Have Eli play QB next year...  
BillKo : 1/8/2019 2:16 pm : link
...and draft the best players avail with a tendency towards our needs.

I wouldn't force the issue with QB, mainly, because you don't know who simply becomes available (draft or otherwise) or who rises up the charts out of no where.

Between Phil Simms and Eli Manning, we went nearly 10 years but still got to a SB.

Agree  
PaulN : 1/8/2019 2:26 pm : link
If Haskins is there we must take him, otherwise a top defensive player, with a high preference for pass rusher must be addressed in this draft.
Mine: Door # 2  
Percy : 1/8/2019 2:31 pm : link
That's my pick.
None  
Thegratefulhead : 1/8/2019 2:33 pm : link
If Eli doesn't retire, I want them to cut him. Any restructure would almost certainly include another year...No fucking way. In this scenario I would like to draft a QB or sign an in expensive replacement with potential. The kind skills Shurmur LOVES, whatever those are. Take the money saved a from Eli and go after the best under 30 FA building block on the market, defense or offense doesn't matter. Then I want them to fill the other holes you talk about. It would make me exceedingly happy to come away with a plus RT and an plus edge rusher this offseason. If the QB doesn't pan out, see 2020. The statistics I trust and believe in combined with what I have watched of Eli the last 5 years, he is declining and has reached the bottom 25% of the league(I respect many people here that disagree, we just disagree). I am ready to move on, I hope the Giants are too. If he is the starter in 2019(likely IMO) I will root like hell for him every single play.
RE: Don't lock into stupid strategies way too early in the process  
Thegratefulhead : 1/8/2019 2:48 pm : link
In comment 14254147 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
There is no sense forcing the QB issue unless you absolutely love the attributes of your target.

Because of SB's talent, we should know that we are going to be facing a steady diet of 8 in the box and cover 1 on early downs. QB must have the arm to go over the top, and the ability to avoid the rush of those 8 who are probably coming across as soon as they read pass.
I cut some of your post. This part, I could not possibly be in more agreement. You should post more.
Not a lot of great options in FA  
kdog77 : 1/8/2019 2:55 pm : link
for RT, RG or C unless Giants want to sign 30+ year old vet as stop-gap. DJ Fluker anyone?

There are some interesting options for Edge rusher (Lawrence, Ansah, Matthews) but signing any of them will all cost arm/leg and eat the rest of the cap space.

Hoping/wishing the front office can find diamonds in the rough in FA for pennies on the dollar or hit on every draft pick is not really a plan. Giants need to rip the band-aid off and overhaul the roster to become competitive in 2020 and beyond. Cut bait with guys like Stewart, Martin, and Vernon. Draft QB, OL, ER and depth on both lines. Keep improving the team cohesion in 2019 and make moves for key FA in 2020.
RE: Not a lot of great options in FA  
MotownGIANTS : 1/8/2019 3:31 pm : link
In comment 14254362 kdog77 said:
Quote:
for RT, RG or C unless Giants want to sign 30+ year old vet as stop-gap. DJ Fluker anyone?

There are some interesting options for Edge rusher (Lawrence, Ansah, Matthews) but signing any of them will all cost arm/leg and eat the rest of the cap space.

Hoping/wishing the front office can find diamonds in the rough in FA for pennies on the dollar or hit on every draft pick is not really a plan. Giants need to rip the band-aid off and overhaul the roster to become competitive in 2020 and beyond. Cut bait with guys like Stewart, Martin, and Vernon. Draft QB, OL, ER and depth on both lines. Keep improving the team cohesion in 2019 and make moves for key FA in 2020.



Jon Halapio will be the starting C next season ....barring he is not healed ... they basically alluded to this multiple times
What Iíd do  
WillVAB : 1/8/2019 3:46 pm : link
Cut or trade Vernon, Stewart, and Ellison. Use the savings to add a piece or two along the OL and add a quality LB (Barr, Mosley, Perryman, etc).

In the draft Iíd think long and hard about going ER-ER picks 1 and 2. Josh Allen or Ferrell would be my pick at 6. Pick 2 depends on who is still there obviously, but if a guy like Zach Allen or Polite falls Iíd pull the trigger in round 2.

The strength of the draft is DL/ER, so draft to the strength of the draft. Use the rest of the picks to fill out Safety, OL depth, LB, etc.
I would 99.9% of the time chalk..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/8/2019 4:18 pm : link
a comment like this up as being facetious:

Quote:
Offer the Bills a 1st and 2nd round draft pick for Josh Allen
GeofromNJ : 11:27 am : link : reply
then sit back and enjoy the next ten years of Giants football


But I think you actually mean it. You had a similar nugget of shit in a different thread:

Quote:
I would trade Odell to Buffalo for Josh Allen
GeofromNJ : 1/3/2019 1:11 am : link : reply
otherwise, he's untouchable.


Wow.
Like number two myself.  
TMS : 1/8/2019 4:43 pm : link
We are on the upswing and have a lot of draft picks and options. A hungry, hard playing team, that is learning, but does not quit. Get ELI to take a restructure to get us some more $$$ and go for it next year. Good draft and FA pick ups, think we will be right there. Yes even with ELI. Guess I am an optimist, Keeping the faith.
RE: Now Mike in MD  
.McL. : 1/8/2019 4:45 pm : link
In comment 14254135 Go Terps said:
Quote:
So don't sign a vet QB. I'm going to cut and paste what I posted elsewhere regarding what our options should be at QB:



Quote:


I know many say that there aren't a lot of QB options out there, but that's not true. I see 3 viable ways to start 2019:

1. Lauletta is the starter
2. Draft a QB and make him the starter
3. Acquire a backup QB currently on another roster that is making less than $1M. These guys are all over the league. Here are some names to start:

Jacoby Brissett
Kyle Sloter
DeShone Kizer
Mason Rudolph
Josh Dobbs
Jeff Driskel
Taysom Hill
Nick Mullens

The point is, there are many options. It's just going to require some creativity and the front office getting out of its comfort zone for once.



The options I've listed above could see us enter 2019 with a drastically reduced QB cap hit, which is a huge team building advantage.

I agree with you that its an option. And it would likely set the team up with a nice choice in a QB rich draft in 2020.

The problem is, is it realistic from a business perspective. THere is still a large camp of Eli fans that get alienated, and then there is the fact that you have given up on the 2019 season, which will alienate another group of fans who think that the team should be in the playoffs next year. Plus it does hurt the morale of some players. So is it a worthwhile business decision? Clearly the team will make less money in 2019 than it would otherwise. You can argue that it would be made up in the long term, but as much as I like to think that way, most business leaders think 1 quarter at a time.
Sign moderately priced defensive players in FA  
.McL. : 1/8/2019 5:11 pm : link
Look to add 1 or 2 moderately priced vet OL.
I contend that it is unlikely that more than 3 or 4 you quality OL hit FA just like last year. Their teams will resign them first. OL has become a premium position. Teams don't let them go, which is why we should resign Brown.
ER are also not likely to be available and any that are will cost more than we can afford.

Sign or Franchise Collins.

Sign a FS, this is not a brak the bank position. Shouldn't be hard.

Sign some CBs hoping to find 1 or 2 starts. Same at LB.

Draft:
Generally speaking go BPA in rounds 1 & 2
(excluding WR, RB, and TE)

We should tilt our board a bit so that all things being equal, we prioritize ER, OT, and OC.

After round 2 (we don't have a 3 right now), prioritize OL, LB, NT, FS, CB.
McL  
Go Terps : 1/8/2019 5:21 pm : link
The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.
RE: RE: Now Mike in MD  
Thegratefulhead : 1/8/2019 5:28 pm : link
In comment 14254525 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14254135 Go Terps said:


Quote:


So don't sign a vet QB. I'm going to cut and paste what I posted elsewhere regarding what our options should be at QB:



Quote:


I know many say that there aren't a lot of QB options out there, but that's not true. I see 3 viable ways to start 2019:

1. Lauletta is the starter
2. Draft a QB and make him the starter
3. Acquire a backup QB currently on another roster that is making less than $1M. These guys are all over the league. Here are some names to start:

Jacoby Brissett
Kyle Sloter
DeShone Kizer
Mason Rudolph
Josh Dobbs
Jeff Driskel
Taysom Hill
Nick Mullens

The point is, there are many options. It's just going to require some creativity and the front office getting out of its comfort zone for once.



The options I've listed above could see us enter 2019 with a drastically reduced QB cap hit, which is a huge team building advantage.


I agree with you that its an option. And it would likely set the team up with a nice choice in a QB rich draft in 2020.

The problem is, is it realistic from a business perspective. THere is still a large camp of Eli fans that get alienated, and then there is the fact that you have given up on the 2019 season, which will alienate another group of fans who think that the team should be in the playoffs next year. Plus it does hurt the morale of some players. So is it a worthwhile business decision? Clearly the team will make less money in 2019 than it would otherwise. You can argue that it would be made up in the long term, but as much as I like to think that way, most business leaders think 1 quarter at a time.
I think any of the QBs Terps listed could easily win 5+games next year. It could possibly improve morale if there are people in the locker room that think it is time to move on from Eli and he is not being held as accountable as other players. No one has won anything with Eli on that team anymore. There has been so much turnover that most of them know only losing with Eli.
4 ......option 4  
idiotsavant : 1/8/2019 5:32 pm : link
The All Defense Draft.

Or mostly defense with a 4th round center or heavy guard to center project and maybe a blocking TE late.

Plus the best free agent center available, (yes, this plus your mid rounder).

Followed by the dramatic offense centric draft in 2020.

Give the Shurm another year with the current 0ffense roster playing cards, and a better OL, give the Betch a game changing ...game wrecking D roster.
RE: McL  
WillVAB : 1/8/2019 5:54 pm : link
In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.


Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.
RE: RE: McL  
Go Terps : 1/8/2019 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.


We have the same chance of winning in 2019 with Lauletta or his equivalent as we do with Manning. How many more seasons do we have to punt in order for that to sink in?

This era of shitty football obviously isn't entirely Eli's fault, but it's also obvious that it just isn't working with him anymore. This offensive system is not tailored to what he can still do well.

This has to be Barkley's team now. That isn't going to happen if Eli is still around.
Go Terps, McL,  
Bill2 : 1/8/2019 6:00 pm : link
I would understand that strategy if there were a great FA class (a great FA class would have multiple above average players at need positions so we net 2-3 above average NFL players for 3-4 years at OL/DL/LB/DB).

So while its a good strategy if we see a Gold FA class, its unlikely to yield very much net improvement in anything but a 2020 high draft slot.

Unfortunately, so far, with the expectations that some FA are resigned or franchised by their existing teams, is it a FA class with a FA class that can likely ( not possibly, likely) assure a 9-7 or better for a few years?

Then what did we accomplish towards rapid improvement?

Its not easy to improve via the FA path. Its a league that rewards 3 very good drafts in a row and then few injuries.

The opposite of the Giants post 2009
Sorry  
Bill2 : 1/8/2019 6:01 pm : link
just imo
Strategy will be based  
bc4life : 1/8/2019 6:03 pm : link
on what's available. Desperately need a RT - but, not seeing one in FA or 1st round. Thinking they have a better shot of safety or edge rushers in FA. Maybe even a TE.

Draft will be either DE or edge rusher - based on rankings. Would love to see Oliver or Williams replace Mauro. If not there should be a quality edge rusher at 6.
Bill2  
Go Terps : 1/8/2019 6:07 pm : link
Cap space is valuable regardless of the class. Reducing our QB costs, for example, makes retaining Landon Collins a lot more palatable.

We also don't have to target the very top of the class. Now might be a good time to focus and second and third tier FAs to help provide depth, improve special teams, and supplement the players we add in the draft.
RE: Bill2  
.McL. : 1/8/2019 6:35 pm : link
In comment 14254592 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Cap space is valuable regardless of the class. Reducing our QB costs, for example, makes retaining Landon Collins a lot more palatable.

We also don't have to target the very top of the class. Now might be a good time to focus and second and third tier FAs to help provide depth, improve special teams, and supplement the players we add in the draft.


If I didn't make it clear before, as a pure team building strategy punting on next year makes perfect sense to me. I 100% agree the Giants are not winning much of anything in 2019 no matter who plays QB.

I just don't think the management can see their way through to doing that from a business perspective. It would be far bolder than our owners have ever been in the past.

Bill2
Quote:

Its not easy to improve via the FA path. Its a league that rewards 3 very good drafts in a row and then few injuries.

Total agreement here as well.

However cap dollars do matter even in weak FA markets. A smart team can and should move future cap dollars into the current year in weak FA years. That can be accomplished in multiple ways. Don't give large guaranteed bonuses. Give larger guaranteed salaries to the current year. Convert future salary into current year bonus. Have leftover cap space that can carry over to the next year.

These are things that teams who are managing the cap well should be doing.
Terps  
.McL. : 1/8/2019 6:38 pm : link
The Raiders kind of got away with punting on this year because they are moving to LV. They don't give a crap about current fans.
I also wouldn't assume we're punting on 2019 if we cut Eli  
Go Terps : 1/8/2019 6:59 pm : link
Shit the Colts were supposed to be terrible this year and look at them.

Now, I think we're badly coached so I don't think we'll see that type of turnaround, but turning around quickly is possible in the NFL.
To quote DG  
Dave on the UWS : 1/8/2019 7:08 pm : link
ďEverything is on the table for us- everything!Ē Thatís our strategy. Iím good with it.
RE: RE: RE: McL  
WillVAB : 1/8/2019 7:16 pm : link
In comment 14254585 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.



We have the same chance of winning in 2019 with Lauletta or his equivalent as we do with Manning. How many more seasons do we have to punt in order for that to sink in?

This era of shitty football obviously isn't entirely Eli's fault, but it's also obvious that it just isn't working with him anymore. This offensive system is not tailored to what he can still do well.

This has to be Barkley's team now. That isn't going to happen if Eli is still around.


Lauletta or some bum FA isnít the same as Eli. And yes, every FA you mentioned is a bum. At least with Eli the organization knows they have a chance at winning if personnel breaks right. If they followed your recommendation, the GM would basically be telling the entire team to go ahead and take the year off.

As far as the finances are concerned, Eliís cap hit isnít stopping the Giants from making moves in FA. They could cut Eli along with all of the other candidates and still trail other teams in terms of cap space. That means other teams can still outspend the Giants, or theyíll be forced to give a terrible deal to some FA no one else will and then youíll bitch about that.

The Giants need to make smart FA moves and draft well. They need to get the next QB right, not force it or rush it because Eli is at the end. Last year was a good start, letís see what they do this year. Iím willing to endure another 2-3 years of losing if it means the Giants get the next 15 right.
RE: I also wouldn't assume we're punting on 2019 if we cut Eli  
WillVAB : 1/8/2019 7:20 pm : link
In comment 14254637 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Shit the Colts were supposed to be terrible this year and look at them.

Now, I think we're badly coached so I don't think we'll see that type of turnaround, but turning around quickly is possible in the NFL.


The Colts were rolling the dice on Luck regardless and effectively leveraged their draft position to add high picks that turned into players ó exactly what I advocated the Giants to do.

The Colts didnít punt the season. They added talent at need spots.
RE: RE: RE: RE: McL  
.McL. : 1/8/2019 7:53 pm : link
In comment 14254656 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14254585 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.



We have the same chance of winning in 2019 with Lauletta or his equivalent as we do with Manning. How many more seasons do we have to punt in order for that to sink in?

This era of shitty football obviously isn't entirely Eli's fault, but it's also obvious that it just isn't working with him anymore. This offensive system is not tailored to what he can still do well.

This has to be Barkley's team now. That isn't going to happen if Eli is still around.



Lauletta or some bum FA isnít the same as Eli. And yes, every FA you mentioned is a bum. At least with Eli the organization knows they have a chance at winning if personnel breaks right. If they followed your recommendation, the GM would basically be telling the entire team to go ahead and take the year off.

As far as the finances are concerned, Eliís cap hit isnít stopping the Giants from making moves in FA. They could cut Eli along with all of the other candidates and still trail other teams in terms of cap space. That means other teams can still outspend the Giants, or theyíll be forced to give a terrible deal to some FA no one else will and then youíll bitch about that.

The Giants need to make smart FA moves and draft well. They need to get the next QB right, not force it or rush it because Eli is at the end. Last year was a good start, letís see what they do this year. Iím willing to endure another 2-3 years of losing if it means the Giants get the next 15 right.


Well said...
...  
christian : 1/8/2019 8:28 pm : link
To add to what Bill said, keep an eye on the number of teams with nearly 200M in unused cap over the next 2 years and the quality of free agents getting to the market.

Neither of those numbers benefit the Giants' chances of remaking much via UFA.

The is also CBA working, vets are getting a larger share of the pie, teams are triggering the 5th year option or extending guys early.

You've got to have multiple successful drafts in succession and round off a short list of needs with your own other 2nd contract guys.

What is this love affair with Holapio?  
Doomster : 1/8/2019 10:21 pm : link
What has he ever done other than play merry-go-round on various practice squads?

He certainly did not distinguish himself in the first two games....
I want option 3  
giantstock : 1/9/2019 2:30 am : link
I think that is easily the best if if if if the Gmen think in year two the qb will be at least "good" then have a chance to be very good thereafter.

Then you get the Qb and dont look back. You get in Free Agency TWO good OLinemen and then you are set for 2020 of having an elite offense.

The Chiefs can do it-- so can the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: RE: McL  
giantstock : 1/9/2019 8:26 am : link
In comment 14254656 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14254585 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.



We have the same chance of winning in 2019 with Lauletta or his equivalent as we do with Manning. How many more seasons do we have to punt in order for that to sink in?

This era of shitty football obviously isn't entirely Eli's fault, but it's also obvious that it just isn't working with him anymore. This offensive system is not tailored to what he can still do well.

This has to be Barkley's team now. That isn't going to happen if Eli is still around.





The Giants need to make smart FA moves and draft well. They need to get the next QB right, not force it or rush it because Eli is at the end. Last year was a good start, letís see what they do this year. Iím willing to endure another 2-3 years of losing if it means the Giants get the next 15 right.


Three more years of losing would be acceptable? I want what you're smoking. SO they won't have a winning until 2022? Ridiculous.
RE: RE: McL  
Thegratefulhead : 1/9/2019 11:23 am : link
In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.
We went 3-13 with a shit ton of injuries, then we won 2 more games with a lot less injuries, great draft including the best RB drafted since AP and a giant improvement at left tackle. It was reasonable to expect more from Manning this year. I cannot speak for anyone other fans, if they keep trotting Manning out there, they are alienating fans who feel the same as I do.
RE: RE: RE: McL  
dep026 : 1/9/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14255312 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.

We went 3-13 with a shit ton of injuries, then we won 2 more games with a lot less injuries, great draft including the best RB drafted since AP and a giant improvement at left tackle. It was reasonable to expect more from Manning this year. I cannot speak for anyone other fans, if they keep trotting Manning out there, they are alienating fans who feel the same as I do.


Solder was a Giant improvement? Could have fooled me after teh first 8 gsames where he was rated as one of the worst OL in the NFL. And lets not forget that Wheeler played worse than Hart did last year. We got nothing from the Center position and Engram missed a ton of time and struggled early on.

I dont know what your expectations were.... but when you get subpar play from 5-6 of your offensive starters... its tough for any QB to overcome.

If the last 8 games are any indication of where the offense is going... how can one NOT be excited?

Oh wait, this is BBI.....
RE: RE: RE: RE: McL  
Thegratefulhead : 1/9/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14255315 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14255312 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.

We went 3-13 with a shit ton of injuries, then we won 2 more games with a lot less injuries, great draft including the best RB drafted since AP and a giant improvement at left tackle. It was reasonable to expect more from Manning this year. I cannot speak for anyone other fans, if they keep trotting Manning out there, they are alienating fans who feel the same as I do.



Solder was a Giant improvement? Could have fooled me after teh first 8 gsames where he was rated as one of the worst OL in the NFL. And lets not forget that Wheeler played worse than Hart did last year. We got nothing from the Center position and Engram missed a ton of time and struggled early on.

I dont know what your expectations were.... but when you get subpar play from 5-6 of your offensive starters... its tough for any QB to overcome.

If the last 8 games are any indication of where the offense is going... how can one NOT be excited?

Oh wait, this is BBI.....
Yes, Solder is much better than Flowers, you don't think so, I cannot have discussion with someone not based in reality. Let's look, last year all our receiver were out, Flowers and Hart manned the tackles and our RBs were Darkwa and Gallman. With a healthy OBJ for most of the season a generational improvement at RB. Solder and Hernandez to the OL, a coach that had not completely lost the locker room, I expected more than a 2 win improvement. I expected Eli to not be in the bottom 25% of the league in QBR.
Why does everything pertaining to the record fall back on Eli?  
PatersonPlank : 1/9/2019 11:33 am : link
The Giants won 5 games because the defense was horrendous. The offense was improving, and I believe we can win with the 2018 offense. Fix the defense, and draft/find a QB of the future. Stick with Eli next year and bring Haskins/whoever along (whoever is someone other than Lauletta).
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McL  
dep026 : 1/9/2019 11:35 am : link
In comment 14255324 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Yes, Solder is much better than Flowers, you don't think so, I cannot have discussion with someone not based in reality. Let's look, last year all our receiver were out, Flowers and Hart manned the tackles and our RBs were Darkwa and Gallman. With a healthy OBJ for most of the season a generational improvement at RB. Solder and Hernandez to the OL, a coach that had not completely lost the locker room, I expected more than a 2 win improvement. I expected Eli to not be in the bottom 25% of the league in QBR.


Again, please re-read what I wrote.

1. Solder is better than Flowers. I agree. But he didnt PLAY like it the first half of the year. He was horrible. All statistical measures said he was terrible.
2. Hart had a better 2017 than Wheeler did in 2018. Wheeler was that bad.
3. We also downgraded at Center as well. A key part of the OL.

And again... please read this again. The last half of the season we were a very, very good offense (even without OBJ). It doesnt mean Eli was perfect or great all year. But once the OL was solidified, Solder got healthier and better, Engram came back healthy as well..... The offense looked legitimate. How you cannot be exciting if that is what next years bring. I dont know what to tell you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McL  
Thegratefulhead : 1/9/2019 11:39 am : link
In comment 14255327 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14255324 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Yes, Solder is much better than Flowers, you don't think so, I cannot have discussion with someone not based in reality. Let's look, last year all our receiver were out, Flowers and Hart manned the tackles and our RBs were Darkwa and Gallman. With a healthy OBJ for most of the season a generational improvement at RB. Solder and Hernandez to the OL, a coach that had not completely lost the locker room, I expected more than a 2 win improvement. I expected Eli to not be in the bottom 25% of the league in QBR.



Again, please re-read what I wrote.

1. Solder is better than Flowers. I agree. But he didnt PLAY like it the first half of the year. He was horrible. All statistical measures said he was terrible.
2. Hart had a better 2017 than Wheeler did in 2018. Wheeler was that bad.
3. We also downgraded at Center as well. A key part of the OL.

And again... please read this again. The last half of the season we were a very, very good offense (even without OBJ). It doesnt mean Eli was perfect or great all year. But once the OL was solidified, Solder got healthier and better, Engram came back healthy as well..... The offense looked legitimate. How you cannot be exciting if that is what next years bring. I dont know what to tell you.
I am excited about next year. I think about what this offense could with a QB with mobility and the ability to created offense when the pocket breaks down(not by design) IE Off schedule big plays. I am EXTREMELY excited by Barkley next year. I am not excite to see us trot out Manning against next because I think he isn't good enough anymore. We just disagree on the Eli thing. Nothing new there Dep.
RE: RE: RE: McL  
bradshaw44 : 1/9/2019 11:46 am : link
In comment 14255312 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.

We went 3-13 with a shit ton of injuries, then we won 2 more games with a lot less injuries, great draft including the best RB drafted since AP and a giant improvement at left tackle. It was reasonable to expect more from Manning this year. I cannot speak for anyone other fans, if they keep trotting Manning out there, they are alienating fans who feel the same as I do.


I'm curious, does this mean you just want any new first round QB even if the grade isn't there? Even if it is worse than what we have, you're ok with just trying? I'm not being a dick, just curious if any new QB would scratch your itch.
#3  
TheMick7 : 1/9/2019 11:48 am : link
.
RE: RE: RE: RE: McL  
Thegratefulhead : 1/9/2019 1:56 pm : link
In comment 14255347 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
In comment 14255312 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.

We went 3-13 with a shit ton of injuries, then we won 2 more games with a lot less injuries, great draft including the best RB drafted since AP and a giant improvement at left tackle. It was reasonable to expect more from Manning this year. I cannot speak for anyone other fans, if they keep trotting Manning out there, they are alienating fans who feel the same as I do.



I'm curious, does this mean you just want any new first round QB even if the grade isn't there? Even if it is worse than what we have, you're ok with just trying? I'm not being a dick, just curious if any new QB would scratch your itch.
In this modern NFL, ever single year, teams start a QB with no experience. Fans understand this, so do players. I can list rookie QBs or QBs that had no or very limited starting experience that went on to have better seasons than Eli has had the last 2 years. So, I do not believe it is throwing away the season. If no one is available via draft/trade or signing that DG and Shurmur do not see upside in, fine I am good with Eli in that case. I find that difficult to believe. I also would not want them to reach at #6....Trading up for a QB after that I am all for. If ones grade out at 6, pull the trigger.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McL  
bradshaw44 : 1/9/2019 2:01 pm : link
In comment 14255641 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14255347 bradshaw44 said:


Quote:


In comment 14255312 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.

We went 3-13 with a shit ton of injuries, then we won 2 more games with a lot less injuries, great draft including the best RB drafted since AP and a giant improvement at left tackle. It was reasonable to expect more from Manning this year. I cannot speak for anyone other fans, if they keep trotting Manning out there, they are alienating fans who feel the same as I do.



I'm curious, does this mean you just want any new first round QB even if the grade isn't there? Even if it is worse than what we have, you're ok with just trying? I'm not being a dick, just curious if any new QB would scratch your itch.

In this modern NFL, ever single year, teams start a QB with no experience. Fans understand this, so do players. I can list rookie QBs or QBs that had no or very limited starting experience that went on to have better seasons than Eli has had the last 2 years. So, I do not believe it is throwing away the season. If no one is available via draft/trade or signing that DG and Shurmur do not see upside in, fine I am good with Eli in that case. I find that difficult to believe. I also would not want them to reach at #6....Trading up for a QB after that I am all for. If ones grade out at 6, pull the trigger.


Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying your position. It seems as others just want change for the sake of change, which is mind boggling to me.
RE: RE: RE: McL  
WillVAB : 1/9/2019 3:18 pm : link
In comment 14255312 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.

We went 3-13 with a shit ton of injuries, then we won 2 more games with a lot less injuries, great draft including the best RB drafted since AP and a giant improvement at left tackle. It was reasonable to expect more from Manning this year. I cannot speak for anyone other fans, if they keep trotting Manning out there, they are alienating fans who feel the same as I do.


If the Giants are alienating fans by playing Eli in 19 then so be it.

The team isnít second rate because of the QB. Theyíve sucked because theyíve been terrible in the trenches on both sides of the ball for quite some time.

Meanwhile, look at how the Cowboys and Eagles are built. The Eagles are in the divisional round w a backup QB and an entire secondary of scrubs. Dallas is on to the Rams riding their OL and running game on O and pass rush on D.

When Reese was overdrafting bum OL and taking a third corner top 10, the class of the division was loading up on pass rushers and OL.

Thatís why the Giants are where they are. A new QB now doesnít change that dynamic.
RE: RE: RE: RE: McL  
Thegratefulhead : 1/9/2019 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14255776 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14255312 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.

We went 3-13 with a shit ton of injuries, then we won 2 more games with a lot less injuries, great draft including the best RB drafted since AP and a giant improvement at left tackle. It was reasonable to expect more from Manning this year. I cannot speak for anyone other fans, if they keep trotting Manning out there, they are alienating fans who feel the same as I do.



If the Giants are alienating fans by playing Eli in 19 then so be it.

The team isnít second rate because of the QB. Theyíve sucked because theyíve been terrible in the trenches on both sides of the ball for quite some time.

Meanwhile, look at how the Cowboys and Eagles are built. The Eagles are in the divisional round w a backup QB and an entire secondary of scrubs. Dallas is on to the Rams riding their OL and running game on O and pass rush on D.

When Reese was overdrafting bum OL and taking a third corner top 10, the class of the division was loading up on pass rushers and OL.

Thatís why the Giants are where they are. A new QB now doesnít change that dynamic.
We disagree. I believe the team is second rate because of the roster AND the performance by the QB. I see Eli as being a big part of the problem. That small fact is the crutch of all of the arguments. Some people think Eli has lost "it" some do not. Doesn't make any of us stupid. We just see it differently when we watch, we put faith in and value statistics differently. We put more faith in some circumstantial evidence over others. IE State of the OL, Who we are playing ect. Bottom line, I think Eli is overpaid, declining and a bottom 25% of the league starter. If you believed that, you would want to move on too. If I believed Eli was just about the same as he used to be, I would want him to stay too. This is not such a big divide, just a difference of opinion by passionate fans.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McL  
WillVAB : 1/9/2019 8:07 pm : link
In comment 14255865 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14255776 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14255312 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.

We went 3-13 with a shit ton of injuries, then we won 2 more games with a lot less injuries, great draft including the best RB drafted since AP and a giant improvement at left tackle. It was reasonable to expect more from Manning this year. I cannot speak for anyone other fans, if they keep trotting Manning out there, they are alienating fans who feel the same as I do.



If the Giants are alienating fans by playing Eli in 19 then so be it.

The team isnít second rate because of the QB. Theyíve sucked because theyíve been terrible in the trenches on both sides of the ball for quite some time.

Meanwhile, look at how the Cowboys and Eagles are built. The Eagles are in the divisional round w a backup QB and an entire secondary of scrubs. Dallas is on to the Rams riding their OL and running game on O and pass rush on D.

When Reese was overdrafting bum OL and taking a third corner top 10, the class of the division was loading up on pass rushers and OL.

Thatís why the Giants are where they are. A new QB now doesnít change that dynamic.

We disagree. I believe the team is second rate because of the roster AND the performance by the QB. I see Eli as being a big part of the problem. That small fact is the crutch of all of the arguments. Some people think Eli has lost "it" some do not. Doesn't make any of us stupid. We just see it differently when we watch, we put faith in and value statistics differently. We put more faith in some circumstantial evidence over others. IE State of the OL, Who we are playing ect. Bottom line, I think Eli is overpaid, declining and a bottom 25% of the league starter. If you believed that, you would want to move on too. If I believed Eli was just about the same as he used to be, I would want him to stay too. This is not such a big divide, just a difference of opinion by passionate fans.


It really isnít about the quarterback. Itís about understanding the team isnít and hasnít been competitive in the trenches for quite sometime and thatís the root cause of the teamís woes over the last 8 years.
RE: Offer the Bills a 1st and 2nd round draft pick for Josh Allen  
Carson53 : 1/10/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14253985 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
then sit back and enjoy the next ten years of Giants football
.

Although I like Barkley, he is the QB I wanted the Jints
to draft. I was looking long term, not a complaint, just my thought process.
Why do new head coaches want to go to a team with a young QB in place, cuz you build around a QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: McL  
Thegratefulhead : 1/10/2019 11:51 am : link
In comment 14256094 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14255865 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 14255776 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14255312 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 14254578 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14254553 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants are already alienating their fans by playing putrid football for years now. It's time for everybody to grow up and move on.



Thereís a difference between alienating the fans and punting the season w a QB who gives you no shot at winning.

We went 3-13 with a shit ton of injuries, then we won 2 more games with a lot less injuries, great draft including the best RB drafted since AP and a giant improvement at left tackle. It was reasonable to expect more from Manning this year. I cannot speak for anyone other fans, if they keep trotting Manning out there, they are alienating fans who feel the same as I do.



If the Giants are alienating fans by playing Eli in 19 then so be it.

The team isnít second rate because of the QB. Theyíve sucked because theyíve been terrible in the trenches on both sides of the ball for quite some time.

Meanwhile, look at how the Cowboys and Eagles are built. The Eagles are in the divisional round w a backup QB and an entire secondary of scrubs. Dallas is on to the Rams riding their OL and running game on O and pass rush on D.

When Reese was overdrafting bum OL and taking a third corner top 10, the class of the division was loading up on pass rushers and OL.

Thatís why the Giants are where they are. A new QB now doesnít change that dynamic.

We disagree. I believe the team is second rate because of the roster AND the performance by the QB. I see Eli as being a big part of the problem. That small fact is the crutch of all of the arguments. Some people think Eli has lost "it" some do not. Doesn't make any of us stupid. We just see it differently when we watch, we put faith in and value statistics differently. We put more faith in some circumstantial evidence over others. IE State of the OL, Who we are playing ect. Bottom line, I think Eli is overpaid, declining and a bottom 25% of the league starter. If you believed that, you would want to move on too. If I believed Eli was just about the same as he used to be, I would want him to stay too. This is not such a big divide, just a difference of opinion by passionate fans.



It really isnít about the quarterback. Itís about understanding the team isnít and hasnít been competitive in the trenches for quite sometime and thatís the root cause of the teamís woes over the last 8 years.
We disagree, I think QB play is a big part of the problem. I think he could make the OL look better if he showed even the tiniest bit of athleticism(he used to have this) He could also improve the running game by beating teams deep when they sell out to stop the run. He is not able to drive the ball downfield the way he used to. Sure he can do when he has plenty of time and can step up, but that just isn't the reality in today's NFL. QB have to able to make plays under duress, years of porous OL play have left him jittery. Clearly, I see something different when I watch...is what it is. There have been current players, ex players and analysts that have suggested this too, I am not alone. All of them are discredited here.
Eli threw the deep ball really  
dep026 : 1/10/2019 11:58 am : link
well this year thegratefulhead. The chart and stats are there to back it up.
RE: Eli threw the deep ball really  
Thegratefulhead : 1/10/2019 12:02 pm : link
In comment 14256784 dep026 said:
Quote:
well this year thegratefulhead. The chart and stats are there to back it up.
Show me, so I can discredit them the same way you do when anyone posts stats you disagree with.
The game is won on the line of scrimmage...  
Rong5611 : 1/10/2019 12:05 pm : link
Address the OL and D Front 7, go from there.
RE: RE: Eli threw the deep ball really  
dep026 : 1/10/2019 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14256789 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14256784 dep026 said:


Quote:


well this year thegratefulhead. The chart and stats are there to back it up.

Show me, so I can discredit them the same way you do when anyone posts stats you disagree with.


There was a whole thread dedicated to it. Ill try to find it.

And I dont discredit posters who post logical things that make Eli. Just people who say he is a fucking moron or a say a 2nd quarter INT changed the momentum of the game.
This was from December 8th  
dep026 : 1/10/2019 12:12 pm : link
So it didnt include the last 4 games.... but I would think with games against Wash, Indy, and Dallas - the percentage goes up.
Deep ball percentage - ( New Window )
And this is why people discredit you gratefulhead  
dep026 : 1/10/2019 12:24 pm : link
you make a statement that...

A. Is not true.
B. Come back with a smartass response.
C. Going to discredit the notion even with factual evidence not agreeing with you.

Have a nice day. It was fun.
...  
christian : 1/10/2019 12:24 pm : link
Getting myopic about perceived need is exactly what Reese did. That's how you end with a tweener like Pugh, a jerk like Flowers, and a massively overpaid Solder.

It doesn't satiate the immediate desire, but you have to focus on value and let the value come to you.

This is a long process, the Giants have problems on every level.

There is no "just fix X" and they will be fine when you are 8-24 over two seasons, have an aging QB, have holes all over your defense and offense on every level.

RE: This was from December 8th  
Thegratefulhead : 1/10/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14256808 dep026 said:
Quote:
So it didn't include the last 4 games.... but I would think with games against Wash, Indy, and Dallas - the percentage goes up. Deep ball percentage - ( New Window )
You are talking about completion percentage on 46 pass attempts...There is no methodology listed, it is a post from a blog without details. Football outsides has him at 22 in DYAR, 20th in DVOA and 27th in QBR. Their methodology is shared in detail on their site. FWIW, if SIS had the entire list and their methodology was explained I would accept these stats.
Dep  
Thegratefulhead : 1/10/2019 12:51 pm : link
This explains you very well, and it is not your fault you don't understand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
RE: RE: Eli threw the deep ball really  
dep026 : 1/10/2019 1:03 pm : link
In comment 14256789 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14256784 dep026 said:


Quote:


well this year thegratefulhead. The chart and stats are there to back it up.

Show me, so I can discredit them the same way you do when anyone posts stats you disagree with.


You asked me to show you where Eli threw the ball well down field. I did.

If you canít understand this, you are beyond hope. All Iím arguing is the deep ball. Youíre wrong. Move along.
RE: RE: RE: Eli threw the deep ball really  
Thegratefulhead : 1/10/2019 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14256902 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256789 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 14256784 dep026 said:


Quote:


well this year thegratefulhead. The chart and stats are there to back it up.

Show me, so I can discredit them the same way you do when anyone posts stats you disagree with.



You asked me to show you where Eli threw the ball well down field. I did.

If you canít understand this, you are beyond hope. All Iím arguing is the deep ball. Youíre wrong. Move along.
You shared a blog post that talked about passes over 20 yards. Does that mean 20 yards downfield, how far the pass traveled in the air? It doesn't list everyone, that is a problem. The information you shared is incomplete. It is only 46 pass attempts that show a completion percentage just north of 40% on only 75% of the season. You need the rest of the information. Did you click on the link in the article that took you to Football Outsiders and read it? The information you listed MAY prove something. I tried to dig deeper on the blog because information matters. It is behind a pay wall. I researched Eli Manning and deep ball accuracy. I am sure you saw the plethora of articles from earlier in the season about the topic if you did.
All I showed is Elis accuracy  
dep026 : 1/10/2019 1:25 pm : link
Throwing down field which is qualified starting at 20 yards. Thatís all. Eli completed a high number of passes downfield.

Thatís all I said and proved.

Have a nice day.
Eyes  
Thegratefulhead : 1/10/2019 1:30 pm : link
What passes do you remember that Eli threw this year that the receiver caught it in stride and scored? I can certainly remember a few that he completed(they would count for the stat) that there was a blown coverage(WR wide open) and if Eli was just a little more accurate it would have been a score, but the WR had to wait for the ball and was tackled immediately.
RE: All I showed is Elis accuracy  
Thegratefulhead : 1/10/2019 1:32 pm : link
In comment 14256922 dep026 said:
Quote:
Throwing down field which is qualified starting at 20 yards. Thatís all. Eli completed a high number of passes downfield.

Thatís all I said and proved.

Have a nice day.
43% of 46 attempts is under 20 passes completed. Not statistically significant.
Latimer  
dep026 : 1/10/2019 1:34 pm : link
TD in the last week was pretty sweet. He threw a few to Coleman as well during the year. He had a couple nice throws for TDs to ObJ (San Fran And Carolina) also against Carolina to Shepard on the last drive. The throw to SS against Indy was pretty sweet too. I can name a lot more if you want...

You want to argue there were some that werenít perfectly thrown and the WR made a nice play. No argument here.
the problem I have with waiting until the 2020 draft for our  
Jersey55 : 1/10/2019 4:51 pm : link
QB is that in order to draft high enough to get our QB we would have to suck again in 2019, writing off another year with Eli Manning as our QB is totally unacceptable to me....
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