I wouldn't hitch my wagon to a QB who weighs less than 200lbs and is under 6ft tall. I don't think the durability will be there and I don't think he'll be able to withstand taking hits from NFL defenders who are bigger, stronger, and faster than the guys he played against @ OU.
He won't last.
That's a valid concern but I think it is worth taking a chance with a late 1st or early 2nd round pick. I wouldn't touch him at 6 but If he can be had with their 2nd round pick I wouldn't complain even if they traded up a few spots. Murray would be ready to go in 2020 after a year learning behind a veteran and more importantly a year in an NFL strength and conditioning program.
Murray will probably be drafted in the same area of the draft that Jackson was. And we're picking in the same area we were last year.
If you really want Murray, you'll likely have to move back up into the tail end of the first round to do it. We do have a bunch of picks and could probably package something to do it, but I don't think we'd be able to get Murray by standing pat with the picks we currently have.
6 is too early - we'd be sacrificing better value elsewhere. Have to take the best player on the board there and it won't be Murray.
Murray will probably be drafted in the same area of the draft that Jackson was. And we're picking in the same area we were last year.
If you really want Murray, you'll likely have to move back up into the tail end of the first round to do it. We do have a bunch of picks and could probably package something to do it, but I don't think we'd be able to get Murray by standing pat with the picks we currently have.
6 is too early - we'd be sacrificing better value elsewhere. Have to take the best player on the board there and it won't be Murray.
I would be willing to trade up into the end of round 1 to get him. The Giants would be moving up just 7-8 spots most likely. Now that is contingent upon Murray completely convincing the Giants that he is committed to football. That is my main concern with Murray. If he suffers a concussion in the preseason will he begin to question his decision?
He is the numbe one QB I want. His size doesn’t concern me at all since he plays very smart and doesn’t let himself take hits. He’s also not gonna be easy to get your hands on. He’s small but he’s is as elusive (if not more) as Lamar Jackson in the pocket. It be essentially like trying to catch a rabbit. He may not be able to bust 60+ yard runs on scrambles mike he did in college but I’m confident in his ability to avoid taking punishment.
and elite prospects actually do have a pretty good chance of making the bigs. But it's far from a sure thing, and even if he makes it and sticks he's likely going to need 3-4 years before he's established. So that's roughly 6 years of getting paid peanuts, slightly more peanuts, and then $500-$600K in his pre-arb years. And the minor league years are shitty. They're bus trips and hokey bullshit at parks and hoping you get called up to be the low man on an MLB totem pole.
The NFL is more dangerous and he may not get picked early, but the big payday - if it does come - would come much sooner, and the paychecks in the meantime will be quite good. In fact, he could have a solid NFL playing career and be done with it before he'd ever get to MLB free agency.
It's not as easy a decision as you suppose.
Personally I wouldn't consider #6 too early to take him Â
But it seems a lot of people here are thinking we can get him at the end of round 1 if we trade up (a la Jackson last year). I don't know how confident I am that he'll still be there at the end of round 1. If he enters the draft I would feel more comfortable trading down from #6 and taking him in the middle of the first round. Obviously trading up from #38 to #30 to take him would be ideal considering we have the extra picks to make it happen, but I just don't see a playmaker like him lasting that long. He is a much better thrower of the ball than Jackson was, and he put up almost identical numbers to Baker Mayfield in the same offense and Mayfield just went #1 overall last year and may win rookie of the year.
There would be daily threads about trading up to the #1 spot to take Murray.
Exactly this. Someone needs to explain to me why Baker Mayfield who just went #1 overall is a better prospect than Kyler Murray. They put up almost identical numbers in the same offense. Okay Baker is slightly bigger... well Murray is much quicker and faster. I'd take RB-like speed over an extra inch in height any day.
It's a durability issue. Murray doesn't do you any good if he's not on the field. How many hits do you think a 5'10", 195lb QB is going to withstand?
I will be stunned if Murray has any sort of long career in the NFL as a QB. How many QB's in the history of the NFL have had legitimately successful careers at that size? Not just his height... his height and weight.
but I think Kyler Murray is going to be very similar to Deshaun Watson if he focuses solely on football. He won't make an immediate impact IMO but he will develop into a good player. The Giants will need to invest in a good backup though.
Can't he put on some muscle via strength training and conditioning?
Sure. Do you think he's going to add 20lbs of muscle, though? How much weight is he realistically going to add to his frame?
Even at the combine, Wilson was 10lbs heavier.
His game also revolves around quickness and speed. At what point does adding weight start to negatively impact the parts of his game that make him so dangerous?
Murray the player is intriguing - I just have no faith in him being durable in the NFL.
I wouldn't hitch my wagon to a QB who weighs less than 200lbs and is under 6ft tall. I don't think the durability will be there and I don't think he'll be able to withstand taking hits from NFL defenders who are bigger, stronger, and faster than the guys he played against @ OU.
He won't last.
arc,
Murray is listed at 5'11" 194 lbs. Even if he just adds 10-15 lbs he will be about the size of an average NFL RB. Oh, and by the way, he is not a RB, he is a QB, and just because he is a "mobile QB" does not mean he is going to be taking hits on every single play. He does not rely on his running game nearly as much as Jackson did in college. Please don't tell me you're going to bring back the argument that mobile QBs are more prone to injury than immobile QBs, an argument that has been debunked by actual facts many times over.
Mayfield is 6'1" 209 lbs. Drew Brees is 6'0" 209 lbs. Technically speaking, if Murray just adds 10-15 lbs when he gets into an NFL workout program and thereby matches Mayfield's/Brees's weight, he would be more "solidly built" because he is shorter.
Russell Wilson is currently listed at 5'11" 215 lbs. You can't tell me that just because Murray weighs 20 lbs less at age 21 before even touching an NFL workout program he is therefore too slight of frame and will never "last" taking hits in the NFL.
You are basing your analysis of his frame entirely on just what you see with your naked eye as an amateur NFL fan/observer. Looks can be deceiving, and any NFL player can be either durable or injury-prone regardless of their listed height and weight and regardless of how "slight of frame" they appear to the naked eye. People certainly thought RGIII was solidly built, but that didn't stop him from having an injury-riddled career. More often than not a QB's durability is often determined by how well he avoids contact, along with numerous factors we can't measure with the naked eye.
Mayfield is 215, not 209 - he's 20lbs heavier than Murray is right now. The idea that Murray is going to just snap his fingers and add 20lbs of muscle is a little easier said than done. Not everyone has the same body type or responds the same way to adding weight.
I'm not sold that Murray even weighs 195. I think he's closer to 190.
And he's not a pure pocket passer. His athleticism is where so much of his value comes from. He's going to need to use his legs to succeed and he's inevitably going to take some hits. No one is going to draft Murray and then strip him of his running ability.
If you have faith in a QB this small holding up for the long haul when there's basically no example of this in NFL history - go ahead. It would surprise me, personally. I'm not going to just assume that Murray is going to be the same player as Russell Wilson because they are about the same height. Wilson also had a lot more college experience. Murray was a starter for one season.
People were saying the same thing about Mayfield last year Â
put me down as someone who would not mind Murray at #6 right now.
Our offense could be explosive with him. He might be smaller but his arm is better than Mayfield and Murray just oozes talent.
Not saying Murray is better than Mayfield but Mayfield went #1, I don't think Murray is much worse of one. No reason to think that since Murray is a better athlete than Mayfield this won't ensure he takes less hits.
What it comes down to is some players know how to avoid taking hits because they can strategize and play smart, others don't. There isn't anything about Murray that I can see right now that doesn't point to him being a smart player and good person. Let's not forget that Mayfield also had some character concerns in terms of being too egocentric especially. Murray doesn't seem like that at all, seems the opposite.
Darren Sproles rarely missed a game until he was 34 years old and is a RB <200lbs. Carson Wentz is 6'5 240lb and can't play more than 10 games in a season. Doug Flutie wasn't injury prone.
Injuries are a combination of physics (how you take a hit alal Tiki) vs. genetics. Some people are very injury prone, some are extremely durable. Placing an "injury prone" label on a guy who is 5'9/10 with no evidence is presumptuous.
Mayfield was also a more advanced passer than Murray. It's not just about stats or size. Mayfield was much better at seeing the field and going through his progressions. He was more NFL ready as a passer.
Murray has work to do there. He's not a "throw your WR open" type of guy. I think some of you guys are just comparing numbers and assuming Murray is every bit as good as Mayfield. He's not, and he'd be a reach @ 6 overall. There will be better players there.
Want to trade up and nab him late 1st round? I could find a way to be okay with that. I wouldn't be in favor of taking him @ 6, though.
Is it accepted as true that muscle mass is beneficial in avoiding injury when you take a hit? I'd think things like flexibility would be more beneficial. Does muscle as a substance act as "armor" in some way?
is also stout as fuck. Look at Murray, his listed numbers are extremely generous. Baker is pretty built, while Murray is definetly slender. I wouldn't be against him in second round though, he's definitely a player. Going to need to tailor your offense to him though. Him taking hits in the pocket, he won't last too long. Guys like him can last if they know how to protect themselves scrambling.
Darren Sproles rarely missed a game until he was 34 years old and is a RB <200lbs. Carson Wentz is 6'5 240lb and can't play more than 10 games in a season. Doug Flutie wasn't injury prone.
Injuries are a combination of physics (how you take a hit alal Tiki) vs. genetics. Some people are very injury prone, some are extremely durable. Placing an "injury prone" label on a guy who is 5'9/10 with no evidence is presumptuous.
Yeah... I'm just not sure how self-evident it is that size in and of itself will help protect a player from hits. I can see how it can contribute to momentum and what not, which may be beneficial in some positions. But I'm sure we can find a large amount of QBs who weigh more than Eli Manning, take less hits on average, and STILL wind up getting hurt.
Is it accepted as true that muscle mass is beneficial in avoiding injury when you take a hit? I'd think things like flexibility would be more beneficial. Does muscle as a substance act as "armor" in some way?
Muscle stabilizes joints. The more strength the muscle has around the ligaments and joints the more force it can receive.
Is it accepted as true that muscle mass is beneficial in avoiding injury when you take a hit? I'd think things like flexibility would be more beneficial. Does muscle as a substance act as "armor" in some way?
Of course it does. Muscle is essentially a barrier. Why do you think boxers spend time developing their abdomens? It helps absorb the impact of punches to the gut and helps them to withstand the hits.
Darren Sproles rarely missed a game until he was 34 years old and is a RB <200lbs. Carson Wentz is 6'5 240lb and can't play more than 10 games in a season. Doug Flutie wasn't injury prone.
Injuries are a combination of physics (how you take a hit alal Tiki) vs. genetics. Some people are very injury prone, some are extremely durable. Placing an "injury prone" label on a guy who is 5'9/10 with no evidence is presumptuous.
Yeah... I'm just not sure how self-evident it is that size in and of itself will help protect a player from hits. I can see how it can contribute to momentum and what not, which may be beneficial in some positions. But I'm sure we can find a large amount of QBs who weigh more than Eli Manning, take less hits on average, and STILL wind up getting hurt.
This is gonna be a really unpopular opinion here, but Eli has made a career of avoiding the big hit in the pocket. A lot of his detractors make the point that point that Eli has been known as a chuck and duck guy in the face of pressure. He also has takes a seat if he knows he's zeroed in on because he knows he isn't scrambling out. I actually have no issue with it, better to stay healthy than to take big hits.
I'd be totally cool with the Giants taking Murray. Â
I get the size and resulting durability concerns but his ceiling is sky high and I think that's a risk you take, especially if it's not at 6 overall. Given the rule changes in the last couple of years, QB's are better protected than they've ever been. Murray also shows an innate ability to avoid contact. His instincts are great there and his experience in baseball lends itself well to sliding.
to prevent those punches from diminishing your performance... but is it inherently useful in preventing injuries when you're being tackled, particularly when you're already receiving that sort of protection from pads?
I'll actually put myself on an island here and bet that Dwayne Haskins has a better NFL career than Murray if Murray does indeed declare and wind up drafted.
as your body puts on muscle to support the new found muscle. This is why steroid guys have a tendency to get hurt because the increase of ligament strength lags to the increase of muscle strength.
are Haskins and Murray. I really like Murray and his fit in this new NFL. But his frame is pushing the limits of what will stay healthy at the NFL level. He looks slender when he's playing on an NCAA field. Big risk there with big reward.
People were also saying Mayfield would be a reach at #2 Â
I don't think Murray makes it past pick #10 if he declares. I don't think he would be too keen to enter the draft if that weren't the case as well, and I think he's probably getting good advice.
The days of QBs falling based on size alone IMO is over. I think people were scared off by the Crouch's of the world but there is a big difference between an option QB that puts up stats and a more pro style offense.
RE: I can see how it would be useful when being punched Â
to prevent those punches from diminishing your performance... but is it inherently useful in preventing injuries when you're being tackled, particularly when you're already receiving that sort of protection from pads?
Muscle helps protect the more delicate parts of the skeleton and organs. Not every part of the body is protected or padded on the football field and contact usually finds its way around the pads.
Muscle can help soften the blow of a fall and provide "cushion" when getting hit.
Obviously in the NFL, speed, quickness, and flexibility are also vital - which is why you can't just put Arnold on the football field and have him own the league. There's a certain point where too much muscle can slow you down or be too much for your frame and create other issues...
But when we're talking about QB's and NFL players - yes, Russell Wilson's body will absorb contact better than Kyler Murray's will right now for the most part because his bones are better protected and his ligaments are stronger.
People conflate height and size at the QB position. Â
Frame size is paramount to staying healthy in the NFL. It is a big man's game. You better have some special skill ala Desean Jackson if you don't possess a larger frame. Even then Desean is pretty one dimensional on what he can do on a football field. Like people keep using height as this barometer, but Mayfield and Wilson are stout motherfuckers. If Rosen had a bigger frame you could make the argument he's the second qb taken off the board last year.
Why are we acting like he’s not going to get bigger? His height may not change much, but I keep seeing people talking about his weight and saying Russell Wilson is 25 lbs heavier. Wilson was only 9 lbs heavier when he was drafted. He was 204. Hell, Murray could be up to that by time the combine rolls around. And they are the same height.
He'll add some weight. But it's not like you just snap your fingers and add 20-25lbs. of muscle. That's a fairly significant change. Will it work naturally for him? Will he still maintain his quickness? His flexibility?
Russell Wilson isn't the type of player who just comes around every year. We need to stop just casually comparing Murray to him because they're the same height.
Wilson was a fantastic passer in college. He was accurate, his mechanics were really good - he was a natural signal caller and had all of the traits you want a QB to have between the ears.
Murray isn't on the same level. Doesn't mean Murray can't play in the NFL or sucks - I'm just skeptical, personally.
Brian Sipe when he played for the Browns. He was 5'11" and about 190 lbs, but that was 30 years ago. OTs and DTs weighed 250 - 275 lbs. Now they are 300-350 lbs. Sipe didn't last long -- though he was talented. Murray would not survive for long either. Picture Fletcher Cox grabbing Murray with one hand and flinging him like a toy.
Arguably Doug Flutie had a great professional career. The NFL thought he was too small and he set all kinds of records in the Canadian league. When he got his chance in the NFL in his later years he had some magical moments. I believe Flutie was 5 ft 9 and assume his weight was similar to Murray’s. I think Murray has that Flutie magic in him but some team in the NFL has to take a chance on him. I would love the Giants to draft him, but he does not fit their mold.
Baker Mayfield was a SUBSTANTIALLY better NFL QB prospect than Kyler Murray is. So many people on here didn't want Baker due to his size; Baker is probably 3 inches and 20 lbs. heavier than Murray. Baker was an all-time prospect, whereas Murray would be an OK one IMO. I'd trust DG/Shurmur if they took him at #6, but I wouldn't be mad if they passed on him. If Murray enters the draft, he knows he's going in the first round, and I'd bet he goes in the top 10 for sure.
Baker Mayfield was a SUBSTANTIALLY better NFL QB prospect than Kyler Murray is. So many people on here didn't want Baker due to his size; Baker is probably 3 inches and 20 lbs. heavier than Murray. Baker was an all-time prospect, whereas Murray would be an OK one IMO. I'd trust DG/Shurmur if they took him at #6, but I wouldn't be mad if they passed on him. If Murray enters the draft, he knows he's going in the first round, and I'd bet he goes in the top 10 for sure.
You're an OU fan, so I'm sure you watched a ton of Murray, so I have no doubt you know what you are talking about. But I respectfully disagree. I just don't get why people don't see Murray as an absolutely fantastic prospect.
He can make all the throws, and he can do them while avoiding the rush. People wanted to see him do it against quality competition. Well - he threw for 300 and ran for 100 against Alabama, which is unequivocally good competition. He had a rough first couple of drives, but once he settled in, Alabama could not stop him (Oklahoma scored on their final 6 full drives). What's most impressive is Murray did that while getting pummeled and without his top WR even catching a pass.
He shows the ability to drive the ball to all levels of the field with accuracy, including the dime he dropped on the 50 yard pass while moving against Alabama.
And then he has Lamar Jackson like mobility, which adds an entire other dimension to your offense. I'm not suggesting running the guy until he breaks, but when you have a guy like that back there, it makes Saquon that much more difficult to stop, and when he breaks the pocket, there are going to be a lot of busted coverages downfield.
Think about the D the Chargers had to use to stop the Ravens on Sunday - the "Double Eagle". If you try that nonsense with the Giants, the Giants will drop 40 on you.
More emphasis may need to be placed on practicing when to slide, how to slide, how to get out of bounds, how to identify the sticks, etc. It seems to make sense given the amount of athletic quarterbacks coming out of college.
RE: I think something teams have to consider is coaching QB durability Â
More emphasis may need to be placed on practicing when to slide, how to slide, how to get out of bounds, how to identify the sticks, etc. It seems to make sense given the amount of athletic quarterbacks coming out of college.
Trubisky actually does an excellent job of this. 1 and 2 down he'll slide before sticks and slides right after picking up 1st down.
If Murray had normal qb height, he might be the first player taken Â
Darren Sproles is a 3rd down scatback who never even eclipsed 100 carries in a season. We're comparing him to a QB? Really?
So you’re saying sproles takes less hits in a season than a running qb? You sure about that?
I'm saying we're comparing apples to oranges. Sproles is also like 4 inches shorter, but nearly the same weight. He has a very low center of gravity and is actually pretty built for his size.
There's also a difference between a RB running behind blockers on a designed run and a QB getting blindsided by an edge rusher.
It's not a good comparison.
RE: If Murray had normal qb height, he might be the first player taken Â
Murray is probably 5'9" or 5'10" in all reality - so Brees is probably closer to 3-4" taller than Murray.
And again, Brees is probably about 20lbs heavier.
Lastly - height is one of about 20 different important factors. Just because Murray is "close" to Brees' height doesn't mean he's going to be anything like him as a pro QB.
I know some of you guys don't want to hear it, but the size is a real concern with this player. If you think my analysis or credentials aren't good enough, go read what Sy has to say about him. He's saying the same things I am and isn't even sure he's 5'10". I think in another thread, he said he wouldn't even be surprised if Murray was 5'8".
Beyond that - like I said yesterday, Mayfield was a better passing prospect. It goes deeper than the numbers. Mayfield was more advanced seeing the field and running through his progressions. Murray is still one of those "see WR open, throw to WR" QB's - he hasn't displayed the ability to actually throw his guys open like the real good QB's do.
Murray has a really nice arm - the arm strength is legit and so is his athleticism. I think he has a place in the NFL - I just don't think it's QB. And if it's not QB, is he going to stick around? I'd guess if playing QB doesn't work out for him, he'll want to go back to baseball.
He won't last.
That's a valid concern but I think it is worth taking a chance with a late 1st or early 2nd round pick. I wouldn't touch him at 6 but If he can be had with their 2nd round pick I wouldn't complain even if they traded up a few spots. Murray would be ready to go in 2020 after a year learning behind a veteran and more importantly a year in an NFL strength and conditioning program.
Murray will probably be drafted in the same area of the draft that Jackson was. And we're picking in the same area we were last year.
If you really want Murray, you'll likely have to move back up into the tail end of the first round to do it. We do have a bunch of picks and could probably package something to do it, but I don't think we'd be able to get Murray by standing pat with the picks we currently have.
6 is too early - we'd be sacrificing better value elsewhere. Have to take the best player on the board there and it won't be Murray.
Murray will probably be drafted in the same area of the draft that Jackson was. And we're picking in the same area we were last year.
If you really want Murray, you'll likely have to move back up into the tail end of the first round to do it. We do have a bunch of picks and could probably package something to do it, but I don't think we'd be able to get Murray by standing pat with the picks we currently have.
6 is too early - we'd be sacrificing better value elsewhere. Have to take the best player on the board there and it won't be Murray.
I would be willing to trade up into the end of round 1 to get him. The Giants would be moving up just 7-8 spots most likely. Now that is contingent upon Murray completely convincing the Giants that he is committed to football. That is my main concern with Murray. If he suffers a concussion in the preseason will he begin to question his decision?
The NFL is more dangerous and he may not get picked early, but the big payday - if it does come - would come much sooner, and the paychecks in the meantime will be quite good. In fact, he could have a solid NFL playing career and be done with it before he'd ever get to MLB free agency.
It's not as easy a decision as you suppose.
Exactly this. Someone needs to explain to me why Baker Mayfield who just went #1 overall is a better prospect than Kyler Murray. They put up almost identical numbers in the same offense. Okay Baker is slightly bigger... well Murray is much quicker and faster. I'd take RB-like speed over an extra inch in height any day.
It's a durability issue. Murray doesn't do you any good if he's not on the field. How many hits do you think a 5'10", 195lb QB is going to withstand?
I will be stunned if Murray has any sort of long career in the NFL as a QB. How many QB's in the history of the NFL have had legitimately successful careers at that size? Not just his height... his height and weight.
Sure. Do you think he's going to add 20lbs of muscle, though? How much weight is he realistically going to add to his frame?
Even at the combine, Wilson was 10lbs heavier.
His game also revolves around quickness and speed. At what point does adding weight start to negatively impact the parts of his game that make him so dangerous?
Murray the player is intriguing - I just have no faith in him being durable in the NFL.
He won't last.
arc,
Murray is listed at 5'11" 194 lbs. Even if he just adds 10-15 lbs he will be about the size of an average NFL RB. Oh, and by the way, he is not a RB, he is a QB, and just because he is a "mobile QB" does not mean he is going to be taking hits on every single play. He does not rely on his running game nearly as much as Jackson did in college. Please don't tell me you're going to bring back the argument that mobile QBs are more prone to injury than immobile QBs, an argument that has been debunked by actual facts many times over.
Mayfield is 6'1" 209 lbs. Drew Brees is 6'0" 209 lbs. Technically speaking, if Murray just adds 10-15 lbs when he gets into an NFL workout program and thereby matches Mayfield's/Brees's weight, he would be more "solidly built" because he is shorter.
Russell Wilson is currently listed at 5'11" 215 lbs. You can't tell me that just because Murray weighs 20 lbs less at age 21 before even touching an NFL workout program he is therefore too slight of frame and will never "last" taking hits in the NFL.
You are basing your analysis of his frame entirely on just what you see with your naked eye as an amateur NFL fan/observer. Looks can be deceiving, and any NFL player can be either durable or injury-prone regardless of their listed height and weight and regardless of how "slight of frame" they appear to the naked eye. People certainly thought RGIII was solidly built, but that didn't stop him from having an injury-riddled career. More often than not a QB's durability is often determined by how well he avoids contact, along with numerous factors we can't measure with the naked eye.
I'm not sold that Murray even weighs 195. I think he's closer to 190.
And he's not a pure pocket passer. His athleticism is where so much of his value comes from. He's going to need to use his legs to succeed and he's inevitably going to take some hits. No one is going to draft Murray and then strip him of his running ability.
If you have faith in a QB this small holding up for the long haul when there's basically no example of this in NFL history - go ahead. It would surprise me, personally. I'm not going to just assume that Murray is going to be the same player as Russell Wilson because they are about the same height. Wilson also had a lot more college experience. Murray was a starter for one season.
Our offense could be explosive with him. He might be smaller but his arm is better than Mayfield and Murray just oozes talent.
Not saying Murray is better than Mayfield but Mayfield went #1, I don't think Murray is much worse of one. No reason to think that since Murray is a better athlete than Mayfield this won't ensure he takes less hits.
What it comes down to is some players know how to avoid taking hits because they can strategize and play smart, others don't. There isn't anything about Murray that I can see right now that doesn't point to him being a smart player and good person. Let's not forget that Mayfield also had some character concerns in terms of being too egocentric especially. Murray doesn't seem like that at all, seems the opposite.
Injuries are a combination of physics (how you take a hit alal Tiki) vs. genetics. Some people are very injury prone, some are extremely durable. Placing an "injury prone" label on a guy who is 5'9/10 with no evidence is presumptuous.
Murray has work to do there. He's not a "throw your WR open" type of guy. I think some of you guys are just comparing numbers and assuming Murray is every bit as good as Mayfield. He's not, and he'd be a reach @ 6 overall. There will be better players there.
Want to trade up and nab him late 1st round? I could find a way to be okay with that. I wouldn't be in favor of taking him @ 6, though.
Injuries are a combination of physics (how you take a hit alal Tiki) vs. genetics. Some people are very injury prone, some are extremely durable. Placing an "injury prone" label on a guy who is 5'9/10 with no evidence is presumptuous.
Yeah... I'm just not sure how self-evident it is that size in and of itself will help protect a player from hits. I can see how it can contribute to momentum and what not, which may be beneficial in some positions. But I'm sure we can find a large amount of QBs who weigh more than Eli Manning, take less hits on average, and STILL wind up getting hurt.
Muscle stabilizes joints. The more strength the muscle has around the ligaments and joints the more force it can receive.
Of course it does. Muscle is essentially a barrier. Why do you think boxers spend time developing their abdomens? It helps absorb the impact of punches to the gut and helps them to withstand the hits.
Quote:
Darren Sproles rarely missed a game until he was 34 years old and is a RB <200lbs. Carson Wentz is 6'5 240lb and can't play more than 10 games in a season. Doug Flutie wasn't injury prone.
Injuries are a combination of physics (how you take a hit alal Tiki) vs. genetics. Some people are very injury prone, some are extremely durable. Placing an "injury prone" label on a guy who is 5'9/10 with no evidence is presumptuous.
Yeah... I'm just not sure how self-evident it is that size in and of itself will help protect a player from hits. I can see how it can contribute to momentum and what not, which may be beneficial in some positions. But I'm sure we can find a large amount of QBs who weigh more than Eli Manning, take less hits on average, and STILL wind up getting hurt.
This is gonna be a really unpopular opinion here, but Eli has made a career of avoiding the big hit in the pocket. A lot of his detractors make the point that point that Eli has been known as a chuck and duck guy in the face of pressure. He also has takes a seat if he knows he's zeroed in on because he knows he isn't scrambling out. I actually have no issue with it, better to stay healthy than to take big hits.
The days of QBs falling based on size alone IMO is over. I think people were scared off by the Crouch's of the world but there is a big difference between an option QB that puts up stats and a more pro style offense.
Muscle helps protect the more delicate parts of the skeleton and organs. Not every part of the body is protected or padded on the football field and contact usually finds its way around the pads.
Muscle can help soften the blow of a fall and provide "cushion" when getting hit.
Obviously in the NFL, speed, quickness, and flexibility are also vital - which is why you can't just put Arnold on the football field and have him own the league. There's a certain point where too much muscle can slow you down or be too much for your frame and create other issues...
But when we're talking about QB's and NFL players - yes, Russell Wilson's body will absorb contact better than Kyler Murray's will right now for the most part because his bones are better protected and his ligaments are stronger.
Russell Wilson isn't the type of player who just comes around every year. We need to stop just casually comparing Murray to him because they're the same height.
Wilson was a fantastic passer in college. He was accurate, his mechanics were really good - he was a natural signal caller and had all of the traits you want a QB to have between the ears.
Murray isn't on the same level. Doesn't mean Murray can't play in the NFL or sucks - I'm just skeptical, personally.
Murray is listed at 5'11" 194 lbs.
I'll be surprised if he hits either of those numbers at the combine. Maybe he'll hit the weight. Maybe.
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Murray is listed at 5'11" 194 lbs.
I'll be surprised if he hits either of those numbers at the combine. Maybe he'll hit the weight. Maybe.
And even if he puts on that 10-15 pounds, there is no guarantee he'll keep the quickness that makes him so intriguing as a prospect
Baseball is a grind. He's looking at 2-3 years in the minor leagues. NFL he could start right away, and look at the success of certain rookies lately.
You're an OU fan, so I'm sure you watched a ton of Murray, so I have no doubt you know what you are talking about. But I respectfully disagree. I just don't get why people don't see Murray as an absolutely fantastic prospect.
He can make all the throws, and he can do them while avoiding the rush. People wanted to see him do it against quality competition. Well - he threw for 300 and ran for 100 against Alabama, which is unequivocally good competition. He had a rough first couple of drives, but once he settled in, Alabama could not stop him (Oklahoma scored on their final 6 full drives). What's most impressive is Murray did that while getting pummeled and without his top WR even catching a pass.
He shows the ability to drive the ball to all levels of the field with accuracy, including the dime he dropped on the 50 yard pass while moving against Alabama.
And then he has Lamar Jackson like mobility, which adds an entire other dimension to your offense. I'm not suggesting running the guy until he breaks, but when you have a guy like that back there, it makes Saquon that much more difficult to stop, and when he breaks the pocket, there are going to be a lot of busted coverages downfield.
Think about the D the Chargers had to use to stop the Ravens on Sunday - the "Double Eagle". If you try that nonsense with the Giants, the Giants will drop 40 on you.
So you’re saying sproles takes less hits in a season than a running qb? You sure about that?
Trubisky actually does an excellent job of this. 1 and 2 down he'll slide before sticks and slides right after picking up 1st down.
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Darren Sproles is a 3rd down scatback who never even eclipsed 100 carries in a season. We're comparing him to a QB? Really?
So you’re saying sproles takes less hits in a season than a running qb? You sure about that?
I'm saying we're comparing apples to oranges. Sproles is also like 4 inches shorter, but nearly the same weight. He has a very low center of gravity and is actually pretty built for his size.
There's also a difference between a RB running behind blockers on a designed run and a QB getting blindsided by an edge rusher.
It's not a good comparison.
And if Lamar Jackson was an accurate passer capable of throwing the entire route tree, he probably would have been the first player taken last year...
He doesn't, and Murray isn't normal QB height - nor will he grow into it. This is what he is.
If this kid is similar in skill level to Mayfield, we have to think about taking him at #6, if he makes it that far.
And again, Brees is probably about 20lbs heavier.
Lastly - height is one of about 20 different important factors. Just because Murray is "close" to Brees' height doesn't mean he's going to be anything like him as a pro QB.
I know some of you guys don't want to hear it, but the size is a real concern with this player. If you think my analysis or credentials aren't good enough, go read what Sy has to say about him. He's saying the same things I am and isn't even sure he's 5'10". I think in another thread, he said he wouldn't even be surprised if Murray was 5'8".
Beyond that - like I said yesterday, Mayfield was a better passing prospect. It goes deeper than the numbers. Mayfield was more advanced seeing the field and running through his progressions. Murray is still one of those "see WR open, throw to WR" QB's - he hasn't displayed the ability to actually throw his guys open like the real good QB's do.
Murray has a really nice arm - the arm strength is legit and so is his athleticism. I think he has a place in the NFL - I just don't think it's QB. And if it's not QB, is he going to stick around? I'd guess if playing QB doesn't work out for him, he'll want to go back to baseball.
Murray @ 6 would be tremendously risky.