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NFT: Sopranos' Chase slips up

jeff57 : 1/9/2019 1:01 pm
Confirms what was likely true from the beginning.

Quote:
The big news, as those who have followed the book’s rollout may know, is that after years of calculated ambiguity, Chase seems to accidentally acknowledge the answer to one of the greatest mysteries since the fate of Jimmy Hoffa: Is Tony dead? Here’s the relevant interview exchange:



Quote:
Sepinwall: When you said there was an end point, you don’t mean Tony at Holsten’s, you just meant, “I think I have two more years’ worth of stories left in me.”


Quote:
Chase: Yes, I think I had that death scene around two years before the end … Tony was going to get called to a meeting with Johnny Sack in Manhattan, and he was going to go back through the Lincoln Tunnel for this meeting, and it was going to go black there and you never saw him again as he was heading back, the theory being that something bad happens to him at the meeting. But we didn’t do that.


Quote:
Seitz: You realize, of course, that you just referred to that as a death scene.

Quote:

[A long pause follows]


Quote:
Chase: Fuck you guys



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RE: Chase has always  
Danny Kanell : 1/9/2019 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14255692 Enzo said:
Quote:
seemed like an odd guy who would get overly sensitive regarding public reaction to the shows. Anyway, here's my random Sopranos hot take: it was a great show but I've always suspected that a large portion of the show's success was due to them hitting the casting jackpot with Gandolfini. You put nearly any other actor in that role, and the show is only a modest hit, if at all.


I think you can make that statement about every great show. If a show is truly great, they've usually hit the casting jackpot with the lead.
RE: I can believe that, Bradshaw  
bradshaw44 : 1/9/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14255684 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
The first season had a lot more humor to it than later seasons.



I re-watched the whole series last year and season 1 definitely has a different flow.
RE: RE: Chase has always  
Enzo : 1/9/2019 2:41 pm : link
In comment 14255705 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 14255692 Enzo said:


Quote:


seemed like an odd guy who would get overly sensitive regarding public reaction to the shows. Anyway, here's my random Sopranos hot take: it was a great show but I've always suspected that a large portion of the show's success was due to them hitting the casting jackpot with Gandolfini. You put nearly any other actor in that role, and the show is only a modest hit, if at all.



I think you can make that statement about every great show. If a show is truly great, they've usually hit the casting jackpot with the lead.

For some shows, yes. For others, they can swap out leads and carry on for years. My main point though is that Chase was overrated as a writer/showrunner.
Related yet pointless fact I recently found out...  
CRinCA : 1/9/2019 2:48 pm : link
"Meadow" is married to Lenny Dykstra's son Cutter.
RE: .  
bw in dc : 1/9/2019 3:02 pm : link
In comment 14255645 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
They've had the marathon on lately due to the 20 year anniversary of the first season. The show has really stood test of time. It's still amazing.


So true. I've been watching it off and on.

I'm not sure there has every been a show where the opening music is so powerful and fitting. And the music in general is just well done.

Loved the end of season 5 with Tony running through the snow to escape the FBI at Johnny's house. There is the fear of the chase. Then he stops at the school and calls his lawyer, who says he wasn't named in the indictment. Then the scene ends with Tony struggling to climb into his backyard and the look of relief on his face that he's home...

There is so much great acting. The acting between Gandolfini and Falco is as good as it gets...
I recently moved to Essex County  
Chris684 : 1/9/2019 3:11 pm : link
and day to day during my commute or other random daily routines pass all of the Sopranos landmarks.

There is no other fictional show that felt as real as The Sopranos still feel.

It had to be hard for Gandolfini. He literally became Tony Soprano. I've never heard anyone with a louder Knicks game introduction than the nights when he was in attendance and they would play the opening theme. His ovation outdid any I've seen for any of the Giants when they'd be in attendance during or after the Super Bowl runs.
RE: RE: Yep, that's as definitive an answer as we've gotten.  
MetsAreBack : 1/9/2019 3:14 pm : link
In comment 14255563 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:



There was also a view that Tony looked like it was "The Last Supper" in the final scene



Note how Tony is in the middle, the light just on him. The spread of the people around him.



Yes, we all read that lengthy article/opinion piece the week after the show ended.
RE: Watch this  
Mr. Bungle : 1/9/2019 3:19 pm : link
In comment 14255643 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Explains it very clearly, as it really laid bare anyway as to the intent of the scene, all the clues are there.

Chase also said that, "If you look at the final episode really carefully, it's all there."

Watch this youtube video, it's definitive.

Tony got whacked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy7tMx6ix8g

If you have to watch a YouTube video "explaining" it, it's not definitive.
The way..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/9/2019 3:34 pm : link
chase approaches things, I could completely see him intentionally fucking with the interviewer and having it go in that direction.
RE: Watch this  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/9/2019 5:14 pm : link
In comment 14255643 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Explains it very clearly, as it really laid bare anyway as to the intent of the scene, all the clues are there.

Chase also said that, "If you look at the final episode really carefully, it's all there."

Watch this youtube video, it's definitive.

Tony got whacked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy7tMx6ix8g


This is a well-made video, and similar to other works that have broken down the ending with serious diligence to show all of the hints and clues "proving" that Tony died.

However, the video is broken into two parts
1. All of the clues suggesting that Tony died
2. That even if Tony didn't die, "Tony will live his remaining moments on Earth in the shadow of dread."

The second point is the position I have taken this entire time. The bell tolls for Tony as it does for us all, but not necessarily in that scene. Maybe Tony was killed there, but we didn't see it happen (I like the Schroedinger's cat analog). Instead, I view the scene that Tony live on, always having to scan every room he's in, always having to check out every person in his vicinity. There will always be that.

There are myriad details that many have pointed out-- editing choices, symbolic choices, recalls, references which are all used to connote death (or, at least some of which were, others might be viewers finding coincidental clues). Some of these are compelling, and others seem to pick and choose.


More importantly, all of those intentional references/suggestions do not add up to "prove" that Tony died. Instead, it just puts the thought of death in the viewer's consciousness. The more of these "clues" the viewer notices, the more he thinks about a looming death rather than what is actually happening in the scene/in real life.


I think Chase did a masterful job putting the viewers on edge playing with their anxieties and expectations for what "has to happen" in a finale. When Tony sees the guy in the Members' only jacket, does he see a suspicious guy who means him harm, or does he see a guy he's never seen before just go to the bathroom? Does Meadow's frantic repeated attempts to parallel park scare the viewer into thinking that she's going to "miss" something, or is just a routine experience of a bad parallel parker? "A guy is going to the bathroom in the finale and it mirrors Tony's favorite scene in The Godfather-- it has to mean Tony gets whacked." Does it? Or does it instead show that choosing this life (for Tony being a mobster, for the viewer being invested in these mob characters) causes you to focus on signs of trouble that may or may not be there?

The series begins abruptly presenting the aftermath of passing out from a panic attack where Dr. Melfi asks him if he has thoughts as to why he "blacked out" and the series ends with a "black out" after what might be the most ordinary experience (dinner at a family restaurant) but fraught with anxiety and panic-inducing suggestions.
---
RE: Chase has always  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/9/2019 5:18 pm : link
In comment 14255692 Enzo said:
Quote:
seemed like an odd guy who would get overly sensitive regarding public reaction to the shows. Anyway, here's my random Sopranos hot take: it was a great show but I've always suspected that a large portion of the show's success was due to them hitting the casting jackpot with Gandolfini. You put nearly any other actor in that role, and the show is only a modest hit, if at all.


The runner-up for the role was Michael Rispoli (Jackie Aprile, Grama from Rounders).

I think the show would have been very successful with Rispoli as it was groundbreaking in many ways and very well-written and shot. But Gandolfini was an absolute home run.
RE: .  
mitch300 : 1/9/2019 5:35 pm : link
In comment 14255645 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
They've had the marathon on lately due to the 20 year anniversary of the first season. The show has really stood test of time. It's still amazing.

I started bing watching it again. I watch like 4-5 epsodes a night.It is still great. Knowing hwat I know from seeing it originally puts a different spin on it. Though a lot I forgot about.
RE: .  
Boy Cord : 1/9/2019 7:33 pm : link
In comment 14255645 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
They've had the marathon on lately due to the 20 year anniversary of the first season. The show has really stood test of time. It's still amazing.


20 years. Wow.
Started rewatching  
Mr. Nickels : 1/9/2019 9:28 pm : link
best show of all time hands down.

Brings back so many memories.
Not really a "fun fact"  
BlackLight : 1/9/2019 10:10 pm : link
Owing to her M.S. diagnosis, Jamie-Lynn Sigler says she's not done any running since they shot that final scene where she crossed the street from her car to the restaurant.
RE: RE: Watch this  
allstarjim : 1/9/2019 11:48 pm : link
In comment 14255778 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
In comment 14255643 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Explains it very clearly, as it really laid bare anyway as to the intent of the scene, all the clues are there.

Chase also said that, "If you look at the final episode really carefully, it's all there."

Watch this youtube video, it's definitive.

Tony got whacked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy7tMx6ix8g


If you have to watch a YouTube video "explaining" it, it's not definitive.


^^^ Didn't watch the video.
chase loves fucking with people  
Banks : 1/10/2019 12:25 am : link
especially on this topic...and the russian. I thought he was killed initially, but I always wondered why now and by who. Really seems odd it would be NY after they pretty much asked Tony to whack Phil.
I will forever love this show. I've rewatched it a couple times and it still holds up. They made a couple mistakes like taking out Tony's best rivals a little too early and making certain characters completely irredeemable, but it's still a great show.

Paulie: "You're not gonna believe this. He killed sixteen Czechoslovakians. Guy was an interior decorator!"

Christopher: "His house looked like shit."
Who says he had to be whacked if he died?  
rnargi : 1/10/2019 11:11 am : link
Maybe he had a heart attack. He wasn't a healthy guy.
RE: Who says he had to be whacked if he died?  
allstarjim : 1/10/2019 11:44 am : link
In comment 14256709 rnargi said:
Quote:
Maybe he had a heart attack. He wasn't a healthy guy.


The call backs and the references in that scene are all reminding of shootings. I don't think the opening of that episode was by accident. I don't believe the orange was by accident. But especially, with respect to the guy in the Member's Only jacket, and the call back to the earlier episode

But the main criticism of a heart attack theory was that right before the screen went black, Tony looks up, not in distress, there was no apparent pre-heart attack symptoms, and the immediate fade to black would suggest instant death.

As the video explains, earlier in the season, Bobby talks about what it must be like to be assassinated, saying, "you probably don't even hear it when it happens." Note the music immediately stops with the black screen. And to really drive the point home, in the previous episode, Tony flashes back to that scene and Bobby saying that.

And where Tony's son tearfully yells at Tony saying that the scene in the Godfather where Michael Corleone retrieves a hidden gun in the bathroom and kills the men that tried to kill his father and that is Tony's favorite scene...and here we see the guy that clearly raises Tony's suspicion in the Member's Only jacket at the counter, and more importantly, raises the viewers' suspicions, and we never see him come back out before the black screen.

Further, that scene is already set up with Tony's POV shots, think about what the writers are communicating. Everytime Tony looks up because of the bell ringing at the door when someone walks in, we get a Tony POV shot.

Meadow walks in, bell rings, Tony looks up, then the next thing we see is just black. The ONLY thing that makes sense there is that Tony's POV is now blackness, nothingness, and it clearly meshes with what Bobby said, with the Godfather scene that is his favorite scene that A.J. is angry with how flippant he is about it, with the fact that the guy who goes to the bathroom has a clear shooting angle to Tony from the bathroom door, with the fact that he is in a Member's Only jacket just like Eugene, who killed himself and had just carried out a hit earlier in the season, and Bobby talking about what it's like to be assassinated...it's clearly obvious that the writer's are communicating what happened to Tony.

I think Chase respects the audience enough to give finality. I think that the finality was a little vague pissed people off, but he also said if you look at the final episode, it's all there, and by looking at that episode, he's right. Writers and directors don't do things by accident, the POV shots, Tony re-calling Bobby talking about being assassinated in the same episode, not accidents, not coincidences.

The only reasonable conclusion is Tony was executed.

And now, we have Chase flippantly calling it a death scene, 13 years after the show ended, I don't think he's trying to pull one over on the fans 13 years later, and he had to be reminded by the interview that he called it the death scene.

If you look at it all together, only one scenario makes any sense. And that's a good thing. I remember everyone being so pissed about the ending, but having an ending that communicates the finality of the show in such a way that only by really examining the show do you get the truth...to me that is superior than say, the ending of Breaking Bad, which wrapped up the show in a neat little bow, with Walter White dying on the floor, having saved Jesse. Nothing wrong with that ending either, but it's very convenient for the audience, and somewhat anti-climactic. In Sopranos, Chase gives us one last bit of suspense and curiosity as the ending, and I kind of like that.
Nothing happens  
since1925 : 1/10/2019 11:57 am : link
The screen goes black.

What happened to Lucy and Ricky? Nothing, the series ended. That's all.

Chase can change his mind a thousand times. Nothing happens until they put the show back on and something happens.
Jim  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/10/2019 12:00 pm : link
Chase seemed to hate how much so many fans of the show had bloodlust and loved these sociopaths. Typically, the gruesome scenes were in the penultimate episodes and the finales were a "where are they now" context.

I don't think he had any intention whatsoever of giving those fans a satisfying ending that clearly indicated Tony being killed.

You said it couldn't be a heart attack because he looked up calmly, but you also said the Members Only guy raised his susipicion-- well which is it? Was Tony tense and suspicious of this guy, or was he completely relaxed?

And if the point of that was to raise the suspicion and anxiety of the viewers, doesn't that also serve the purpose of showing the "shadow of dread" that Tony and people in this life constantly have to live with? As I've written in more detail earlier, doesn't it further show that what might otherwise be the ordinary or mundane, can be perceived as foreboding and threatening? If so, what kind of life is that?


Plus, all of the "death" clues weren't noticed by the viewers in real time. Some were, and others were picked up in analysis after the fact. It seems to me that suggests that people can see signs of death, dread, omens, in anything if they are looking for them which is what can cause/heighten tension and anxiety.


Also, why doesn't that cut to black equally suggest that Tony had another panic attack? In the very first scene of the show, Dr. Melfi asks Tony about his "blacking out" due to a panic attack.

Tony had several panic attacks throughout the show, and they happened at random-- the first of which while he was casually grilling outside, smiling, watching ducks. He also described it as ginger ale in his skull. So why couldn't the "black out" at the end of the show be a panic attack as Tony sits there drinking a coke?
I always interpreted the screen going to black with  
bradshaw44 : 1/10/2019 12:03 pm : link
a hit. I just always took it to be us, the fans, getting whacked. We were the ones that never got to see the show again. But looking at everything laid out here, it seems like it's Tony.
Shotgun shot shave my body  
Anakim : 1/10/2019 12:04 pm : link
.
Bradshaw...  
rnargi : 1/10/2019 12:19 pm : link
that's a reasonable...if not brilliant...interpretation. I hadn't thought of that before and frankly, I like it!
I think Chase wanted to leave the ending...  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 12:29 pm : link
open-ended to allow for a movie. So I'm convinced his mindset was that nothing happens to Tony.

Once Gandolfini died, that completely tabled that movie idea, and now he couldn't care less what the interpretation is...
RE: Jim  
allstarjim : 1/10/2019 1:01 pm : link
In comment 14256787 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
Chase seemed to hate how much so many fans of the show had bloodlust and loved these sociopaths. Typically, the gruesome scenes were in the penultimate episodes and the finales were a "where are they now" context.

I don't think he had any intention whatsoever of giving those fans a satisfying ending that clearly indicated Tony being killed.


Which would make sense for Chase to not give the fans of actually seeing the character that the show revolved around get murdered.

Quote:
You said it couldn't be a heart attack because he looked up calmly, but you also said the Members Only guy raised his susipicion-- well which is it? Was Tony tense and suspicious of this guy, or was he completely relaxed?


I don't think Tony noticing the guy in the jacket and just being aware of him would in any way in conflict with what I'm saying, which is not that he was completely relaxed. I don't even think it matters. I think Tony's life has to revolve around being aware of who is around him, that is his normal. Also note that A.J. walks into the door with the Member's Only jacket, and A.J. was the one to remind us and Tony about his favorite scene in the Godfather, where Michael retrieves the hidden gun from the bathroom, and that same guy gets much more attention from the cameras, looked at Tony twice, is clearly Italian, and goes to the bathroom, and we don't see him again before the black.

All I was saying about it not being a heart attack is if the black signifies death, which I believe it does, then the immediate shot of Tony looking up would not indicate a heart attack. He's looking up to see who is coming through the door, like he did 3 times before, and appears normal, not someone in a health crisis/distress. People having a heart attack don't instantly die and "go black", and in this scene, if we agree the going to black does indicate death, then it is an instant death.

Quote:
And if the point of that was to raise the suspicion and anxiety of the viewers, doesn't that also serve the purpose of showing the "shadow of dread" that Tony and people in this life constantly have to live with? As I've written in more detail earlier, doesn't it further show that what might otherwise be the ordinary or mundane, can be perceived as foreboding and threatening? If so, what kind of life is that?


I don't think that's consistent with everything else communicated in the episode. The opening scene with Tony waking up to church organs, Bobby, A.J., and the Member's Only man (and connection to Eugene), hell, even Eugene's episode was called "Member's Only," was also in Season 6, clearly giving the jacket more significance, and here we have another diner who would be the only plausible assassin in this scene, wearing a Member's Only jacket.



Quote:
Plus, all of the "death" clues weren't noticed by the viewers in real time. Some were, and others were picked up in analysis after the fact. It seems to me that suggests that people can see signs of death, dread, omens, in anything if they are looking for them which is what can cause/heighten tension and anxiety.


I think that shows the brilliance of the episode.


Quote:
Also, why doesn't that cut to black equally suggest that Tony had another panic attack? In the very first scene of the show, Dr. Melfi asks Tony about his "blacking out" due to a panic attack.

Tony had several panic attacks throughout the show, and they happened at random-- the first of which while he was casually grilling outside, smiling, watching ducks. He also described it as ginger ale in his skull. So why couldn't the "black out" at the end of the show be a panic attack as Tony sits there drinking a coke?


For the same reason the heart attack theory wouldn't make sense as I said above.

And we have Chase calling it a death scene off the cuff. I don't think Chase planned to say that, I think it was an accidental admission, and at this point if we haven't proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt, then we have all the circumstantial evidence in the world to say that in this scene, Tony was killed and died an instant death right there.

And for crying it loud it shows Tony looking at himself in the diner at the beginning of the scene.



proven beyond a shadow of a doubt?  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/10/2019 1:36 pm : link
you haven't proven anything. All you, and anyone has done, has pointed out all of the references and symbolism that attach to death. You are making a leap of faith that David Chase decided that Tony was killed in the exact same manner that Michael Corleone killed Sollozzo.

All of these clues that were noticed at the time and pickced up after the fact only heighten the anxiety and tension of a potential death coming for Tony.

Take, for example, the suggestion that the shot of Tony early in the scene was meant to connote The Last Supper. Great shot. But how in any way does that suggest that Tony was killed at that meal? Jesus wasn't killed at The Last Supper. The Last Supper was merely where Jesus predicts that one of his friends would betray him. He was killed on a different day, perhaps even the next day.

If anything, one could make the case that symbolism reflects Tony's anxiety that even though New York was taken care of, he still has to worry about who else could target him in the near future.

Many novels have ambiguous endings  
Essex : 1/10/2019 1:37 pm : link
I think to be ambiguous on whether he lived or died was the intent of the ending and that was the ending. You just don't know, he can say what he wants to say now, but if the point was to kill him of definitively, he would have done so. He didn't, so there will always be a debate and that is what he wanted--which indicates he did not decide one way or the other.

On a totally different subject, saw this show "Bad Blood" on Netflix and while not nearly as good as the Sopranos, it was pretty well done. It is about a Canadian Mafia family and is loosely based on true events. No spoilers, but all who liked the Sopranos should probably give it a try.
I don't buy that the end can't represent a panic attack  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/10/2019 1:38 pm : link

The series began coming abruptly from a black screen to Dr. Melfi's waiting room. The series ends with a cut to a black screen. The entire premise of the show was about the toll a mobster's two families had on him and how it caused him to black out from a panic attack. How fitting it would be if it ended the same way.

Better yet, how fitting it would be for series to end with Chase creating the sensation of the viewer blacked out from a panic attack after getting completely worked up throughout the entire final scene?

All of these clues about death, a guy giving a stray look as he walks to the bathroom (causing the viewer to think of The Godfather), the cat, the tolling of the bells, Meadow frantically parking as if she is running late and is going to miss... something-- whatever that is.

And this whole time the viewer knows it's the final scene of the series-- time is running out-- what is going to happen---

cut to black. A black out. A panic attack. Over something inocuous as a family meeting for a casual dinner.
It probably says a lot about the ending Chase provided  
Chris684 : 1/10/2019 1:42 pm : link
that it sparks debate and discussion this many years after it aired.

It is/was brilliant, just like the show overall.
RE: Bradshaw...  
bradshaw44 : 1/10/2019 1:49 pm : link
In comment 14256828 rnargi said:
Quote:
that's a reasonable...if not brilliant...interpretation. I hadn't thought of that before and frankly, I like it!


Nargi, great to see you back! Hope all is well.

I've floated that idea here before and got shit all over, lol. I've never heard anyone else suggest it either, which always made me think (based on Chase's elusiveness on the subject) maybe I was smart! But the facts laid out and Chase's slip up make it hard to defend today.
I loved the ending when it happened  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/10/2019 1:51 pm : link
and still love it today. I prefer closure with my entertainment because life is unsettling enough. But that ending was riveting. That scene was the most I have ever been on the edge of my seat watching television.

I'm not arguing Tony was definitively NOT killed, just that we didn't see it; there is a much higher burden to prove that he was murdered. Chase shot exactly what he wanted to shoot, and all of the hints, and references, and suggestions are merely left up to interpretation.
The one thing that I did not like about the show was that  
Essex : 1/10/2019 1:52 pm : link
there was even the hint that Tony survived. Chase knew, as evidenced by what Tony said to Bobby, that there were two ways out of the modern mafia, getting arrested or getting killed. I always felt it was a missed opportunity not to have Tony arrested in the beginning of the last season and have the drama of the last season about who flips and who doesn't with the courtroom drama playing out and how it affected his family, both the crime and regular one. The show always seemed to stray away from law enforcement and crippling effect it had on organized crime. Junior's trial became a sham, the FBI was always three steps behind him (Tony killing people who cooperate like BP). By giving Tony an out that possibly did not include one of the two scenarios he told to Bobby, I thought was a betrayal of the realism of the show. In the end, it became less realistic and more about Tony the Superman Organized Crime Boss. Think the ending was a major fail.
RE: proven beyond a shadow of a doubt?  
allstarjim : 1/10/2019 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14256930 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
you haven't proven anything. All you, and anyone has done, has pointed out all of the references and symbolism that attach to death. You are making a leap of faith that David Chase decided that Tony was killed in the exact same manner that Michael Corleone killed Sollozzo.

All of these clues that were noticed at the time and pickced up after the fact only heighten the anxiety and tension of a potential death coming for Tony.

Take, for example, the suggestion that the shot of Tony early in the scene was meant to connote The Last Supper. Great shot. But how in any way does that suggest that Tony was killed at that meal? Jesus wasn't killed at The Last Supper. The Last Supper was merely where Jesus predicts that one of his friends would betray him. He was killed on a different day, perhaps even the next day.

If anything, one could make the case that symbolism reflects Tony's anxiety that even though New York was taken care of, he still has to worry about who else could target him in the near future.


Jesus, re-look at my post, I said if it's not proven by a shadow of a doubt, there is A LOT of circumstantial evidence.

Given how writers/showrunners INTENTIONALLY add details and direct a scene, especially one as significant as this, no more apparent than the door bell jangling coupled with Tony looking up, and the next thing is Tony POV shot, to me, it seems that those that think Tony wasn't killed or that think this was too ambiguous to say for sure after looking at all the little details in this show, they are the ones that are likely just wishing and hoping beyond reason that Tony survives.

Like Chase says, it's all there, and I would encourage you to watch that video I linked. I know some stuff was noticed and broken down earlier, but this was a more thorough analysis than I had seen.

Further, if you still think it's ambiguous after Chase called it the death scene then I suppose any further discussion will be unfruitful, your mind simply doesn't want to consider any other scenario than Tony surviving.
Final scene  
Stan in LA : 1/10/2019 2:00 pm : link
Quote:
Parts of the highly anticipated “Sopranos” prequel movie, “The Many Saints of Newark,” is going to look familiar to fans of the original show.

Page Six has learned that New Jersey’s Holsten’s ice cream parlor and eatery, the location of the final scene of “The Sopranos'” series finale, will appear in creator David Chase‘s forthcoming film.

The restaurant housed the scene where James Gandolfini’s Tony Soprano and his family noshed on onion rings before famously cutting to black.

“HBO contacted us to shoot on location,” Holsten’s co-owner Chris Carley told Page Six in honor of the show’s 20th anniversary. “They’re going to shoot some scenes here.”

HBO referred Page Six to New Line Cinema, who said they don’t comment on possible filming locations.

“I wish it had been James Gandolfini, but …,” added Carley, trailing off before he could refer to Gandolfini’s 2013 death.

Gandolfini, who won three Emmys for his work on the series, died at age 51 in Rome, Italy, of a heart attack.

Chase confirmed a young Tony Soprano will be a big part of “The Many Saints of Newark,” though casting is still underway.

Final scene - ( New Window )
Essex  
Chris684 : 1/10/2019 2:03 pm : link
In the last few scenes Tony tells Carmela that Carlo flipped and is going to testify.

RE: Essex  
Essex : 1/10/2019 2:06 pm : link
In comment 14256971 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In the last few scenes Tony tells Carmela that Carlo flipped and is going to testify.

I realize that, but again it is very subtle and how it will end up is ambiguous. Other people cooperated with law enforcement, but they ended up not getting to the finish line. My point was simply that the statement to have a realism aspect to it, needed to be more concrete than the ambiguous ending Chase gave us.
It always cracked me up that people didn't think Tony got whacked...  
x meadowlander : 1/10/2019 2:10 pm : link
...it was glaringly obvious to the point it was near insulting.

I love the finale, think it's artistically one of the best episodes even if it is silly.

I mean, Christ, any real fan was laser-focused on that episode, we all knew 'Don't Stop Believing' was it, we were into the homestretch, the Onion Ring Communion - when Members Only went into the bathroom, we all knew he was either a hit man or a David Chase decoy.

When the screen went black it was clear as day what happened.

Frankly, I was shocked the next day to realize there was a national debate over what happened.
RE: It always cracked me up that people didn't think Tony got whacked...  
Ron from Ninerland : 1/10/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14256982 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...it was glaringly obvious to the point it was near insulting.

I love the finale, think it's artistically one of the best episodes even if it is silly.

I mean, Christ, any real fan was laser-focused on that episode, we all knew 'Don't Stop Believing' was it, we were into the homestretch, the Onion Ring Communion - when Members Only went into the bathroom, we all knew he was either a hit man or a David Chase decoy.

When the screen went black it was clear as day what happened.

Frankly, I was shocked the next day to realize there was a national debate over what happened.
In hindsight I think its obvious that Tony was whacked but that scene was badly done. I and probably millions of others thought there was something wrong with my TV the first time I saw it.
Jim  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/10/2019 2:36 pm : link
I've watched that video, and others, and read the 10,000 or 30,000 word essay that came out over a decade ago arguing why Tony was definitively killed (https://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/)

I've done the homework and have seen the arguments. It's a theory. It uses a lot of effort and circumstantial evidence to support the theory.

But the circumstantial evidence is largely based on interpretation of the figurative/symbolic. There are plausible ways to interpret those symbols differently, and when that happens, it weakens the concreteness of that initial theory. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

All we saw literally was a guy go to the bathroom and shortly thereafter, Tony looks up and the show immediately cuts to black. That scene and the episodes preceding it are littered with references, suggestions, allusions, and symbols for death. So it's a great interpretation that those were all meant to signify that the final cut to black occurred because Tony was killed and it was instantaneous and cut to black because his POV was over.

But we don't see a gun, we don't see a killer, we don't see a crime scene, we don't see an action, we don't see anything physical to support that because Chase didn't shoot or show any of it.

If Chase wanted to make sure that people knew that Tony died, he would have made sure and not left it open to interpretation. He wasn't afraid to show death on screen.

If instead Chase shot the scene and it ended with Tony getting shot to death and bleeding out, but the episode were riddled with dreamlike references, the person arguing that he wasn't shot and it was all a dream would also have a remarkable burden to overcome in order to prove something that was not explicitly shown.

I don't interpret the scene as Tony dying. The guy going to the bathroom referencing The Godfather conveys perhaps that Tony (or the viewers) has to constantly be on alert even by something as innocuous as going to the bathroom and the viewer takes notice of it because of The Godfather reference.

Why do all of the references to death prove that someone was killed and not merely convey an anxiety or convey a perspective of how one views all situations? The suggestion of death/dread everywhere could suggest the life that TOny has to lead. Even when he's not under threat, he's under threat.

It can't be proven that the "black out" at the end was death and not a "black out." Both were referenced on the show.




RE: It always cracked me up that people didn't think Tony got whacked...  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/10/2019 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14256982 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...it was glaringly obvious to the point it was near insulting.

I mean, Christ, any real fan was laser-focused on that episode, we all knew 'Don't Stop Believing' was it, we were into the homestretch, the Onion Ring Communion - when Members Only went into the bathroom, we all knew he was either a hit man or a David Chase decoy.



The viewers were in the homestretch because we knew it was the end of the series. But why does that necessarily mean that the final scene was going to be something incredible climactic or intense? It was the homestretch for the viewers, not necessarily the homestretch for Tony Soprano in his world.

One could argue that that not a single season ended on an intense, climactic note. It has been a long time since I watched the series as a whole, but I remember the penultimate episodes being the intense ones, and the finales showing more the aftermath and the final scenes being rather tame.

I thought the ending sucked...  
EricJ : 1/10/2019 2:49 pm : link
.
RE: I thought the ending sucked...  
rocco8112 : 1/10/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14257070 EricJ said:
Quote:
.


Me too
Hated the ending during the original run  
Joey from GlenCove : 1/10/2019 4:33 pm : link
But after rewatching the series years later I have come to appreciate the ending and I think it was appropriate.

He just moved on. A new chapter in his life began.
I dated a girl that had her Masters in Literature and  
bradshaw44 : 1/10/2019 4:47 pm : link
linguistics. We were watching the first season of Game of Thrones, maybe the third episode or so, and there is a scene after someone had gifted the petrified dragon eggs to Calesi. Where the eggs are sitting in a box and there is a fire burning behind, or in front of, or near the eggs. The girl says oh those dragons eggs are going to hatch! Those things are alive. And I asked how the heck she knew that (I had seen the episode already), and she told me that fire symbolizes life. And as we all know, the dragons in fact hatched from those eggs. My point is, that when a writer or director uses a lot of well known symbolism in a story it is for a purpose. And after hearing all the explanations of symbolism on this thread I do think Chase was telling the fans that Tony did in fact die.
I initially believed  
fkap : 1/10/2019 8:24 pm : link
that the audience was the one whacked. Killing Tony would be too schlocky. He was the main character, but the show was not told through his eyes, so ending it that way would not be consistent with the show.

There is a lot of innuendo that points to it being Tony that was killed off. But, it would have been more original to kill off the audience.

Overall, I think it was more an attempt to create a sensation than to wrap up a show.
...  
Route 9 : 1/11/2019 8:58 am : link
Didn't like the ending back then and still don't care too much for it today.

I did love the show, the writing, directing and most importantly; the characters. I don't think there was a show where I enjoyed a good majority of the shows characters as I did this one, except for Janice.

The saddest part about Bobby's death was really his kids were left behind with her annoying fat ass.

Still cannot believe it was 20 years ago when it started. I remember watching the first episode with my mom in early 99 and I remember watching the last episode with her again and with my girlfriend at the time in June 2007 for the last ever episode.

My girlfriend was Italian too from North Jersey and a huge fan. I enjoy watching TV shows more than I do watching movies and this show is a main reason why.
So what members of the crew are still alive or not in jail at the end?  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/11/2019 2:35 pm : link
Paulie and Patsy Parisi? I guess Sil is still in a coma. I think Max Casella's character is still alive.
.  
Banks : 1/11/2019 4:43 pm : link
Ally boy Barese was a top earner and seemed competent despite his little speech issue. He's still alive in the show. No idea why he disappeared after season 4
I liked the ending...  
bw in dc : 1/11/2019 4:56 pm : link
It was very tense.

I just wish Tony had turned his head to look to the side if he was indeed whacked.

He was such a dialed in guy that I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have seen someone out of the corner of his eye, especially if it was the guy in the Members Only jacket coming out of the bathroom to Tony's right. The scene gave the impression that Tony took note of him early on.

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