NFT: Sopranos' Chase slips up

Chase seemed to hate how much so many fans of the show had bloodlust and loved these sociopaths. Typically, the gruesome scenes were in the penultimate episodes and the finales were a "where are they now" context.

I don't think he had any intention whatsoever of giving those fans a satisfying ending that clearly indicated Tony being killed.

You said it couldn't be a heart attack because he looked up calmly, but you also said the Members Only guy raised his susipicion-- well which is it? Was Tony tense and suspicious of this guy, or was he completely relaxed?

And if the point of that was to raise the suspicion and anxiety of the viewers, doesn't that also serve the purpose of showing the "shadow of dread" that Tony and people in this life constantly have to live with? As I've written in more detail earlier, doesn't it further show that what might otherwise be the ordinary or mundane, can be perceived as foreboding and threatening? If so, what kind of life is that?


Plus, all of the "death" clues weren't noticed by the viewers in real time. Some were, and others were picked up in analysis after the fact. It seems to me that suggests that people can see signs of death, dread, omens, in anything if they are looking for them which is what can cause/heighten tension and anxiety.


Also, why doesn't that cut to black equally suggest that Tony had another panic attack? In the very first scene of the show, Dr. Melfi asks Tony about his "blacking out" due to a panic attack.

Tony had several panic attacks throughout the show, and they happened at random-- the first of which while he was casually grilling outside, smiling, watching ducks. He also described it as ginger ale in his skull. So why couldn't the "black out" at the end of the show be a panic attack as Tony sits there drinking a coke?

a hit. I just always took it to be us, the fans, getting whacked. We were the ones that never got to see the show again. But looking at everything laid out here, it seems like it's Tony.

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that's a reasonable...if not brilliant...interpretation. I hadn't thought of that before and frankly, I like it!

open-ended to allow for a movie. So I'm convinced his mindset was that nothing happens to Tony.

Once Gandolfini died, that completely tabled that movie idea, and now he couldn't care less what the interpretation is...

In comment 14256787 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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Chase seemed to hate how much so many fans of the show had bloodlust and loved these sociopaths. Typically, the gruesome scenes were in the penultimate episodes and the finales were a "where are they now" context. I don't think he had any intention whatsoever of giving those fans a satisfying ending that clearly indicated Tony being killed.

Which would make sense for Chase to not give the fans of actually seeing the character that the show revolved around get murdered.

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You said it couldn't be a heart attack because he looked up calmly, but you also said the Members Only guy raised his susipicion-- well which is it? Was Tony tense and suspicious of this guy, or was he completely relaxed?

I don't think Tony noticing the guy in the jacket and just being aware of him would in any way in conflict with what I'm saying, which is not that he was completely relaxed. I don't even think it matters. I think Tony's life has to revolve around being aware of who is around him, that is his normal. Also note that A.J. walks into the door with the Member's Only jacket, and A.J. was the one to remind us and Tony about his favorite scene in the Godfather, where Michael retrieves the hidden gun from the bathroom, and that same guy gets much more attention from the cameras, looked at Tony twice, is clearly Italian, and goes to the bathroom, and we don't see him again before the black.

All I was saying about it not being a heart attack is if the black signifies death, which I believe it does, then the immediate shot of Tony looking up would not indicate a heart attack. He's looking up to see who is coming through the door, like he did 3 times before, and appears normal, not someone in a health crisis/distress. People having a heart attack don't instantly die and "go black", and in this scene, if we agree the going to black does indicate death, then it is an instant death.

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And if the point of that was to raise the suspicion and anxiety of the viewers, doesn't that also serve the purpose of showing the "shadow of dread" that Tony and people in this life constantly have to live with? As I've written in more detail earlier, doesn't it further show that what might otherwise be the ordinary or mundane, can be perceived as foreboding and threatening? If so, what kind of life is that?

I don't think that's consistent with everything else communicated in the episode. The opening scene with Tony waking up to church organs, Bobby, A.J., and the Member's Only man (and connection to Eugene), hell, even Eugene's episode was called "Member's Only," was also in Season 6, clearly giving the jacket more significance, and here we have another diner who would be the only plausible assassin in this scene, wearing a Member's Only jacket.

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Plus, all of the "death" clues weren't noticed by the viewers in real time. Some were, and others were picked up in analysis after the fact. It seems to me that suggests that people can see signs of death, dread, omens, in anything if they are looking for them which is what can cause/heighten tension and anxiety.

I think that shows the brilliance of the episode.

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Also, why doesn't that cut to black equally suggest that Tony had another panic attack? In the very first scene of the show, Dr. Melfi asks Tony about his "blacking out" due to a panic attack. Tony had several panic attacks throughout the show, and they happened at random-- the first of which while he was casually grilling outside, smiling, watching ducks. He also described it as ginger ale in his skull. So why couldn't the "black out" at the end of the show be a panic attack as Tony sits there drinking a coke?

For the same reason the heart attack theory wouldn't make sense as I said above.

And we have Chase calling it a death scene off the cuff. I don't think Chase planned to say that, I think it was an accidental admission, and at this point if we haven't proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt, then we have all the circumstantial evidence in the world to say that in this scene, Tony was killed and died an instant death right there.

And for crying it loud it shows Tony looking at himself in the diner at the beginning of the scene.

you haven't proven anything. All you, and anyone has done, has pointed out all of the references and symbolism that attach to death. You are making a leap of faith that David Chase decided that Tony was killed in the exact same manner that Michael Corleone killed Sollozzo.

All of these clues that were noticed at the time and pickced up after the fact only heighten the anxiety and tension of a potential death coming for Tony.

Take, for example, the suggestion that the shot of Tony early in the scene was meant to connote The Last Supper. Great shot. But how in any way does that suggest that Tony was killed at that meal? Jesus wasn't killed at The Last Supper. The Last Supper was merely where Jesus predicts that one of his friends would betray him. He was killed on a different day, perhaps even the next day.

If anything, one could make the case that symbolism reflects Tony's anxiety that even though New York was taken care of, he still has to worry about who else could target him in the near future.

I think to be ambiguous on whether he lived or died was the intent of the ending and that was the ending. You just don't know, he can say what he wants to say now, but if the point was to kill him of definitively, he would have done so. He didn't, so there will always be a debate and that is what he wanted--which indicates he did not decide one way or the other.

On a totally different subject, saw this show "Bad Blood" on Netflix and while not nearly as good as the Sopranos, it was pretty well done. It is about a Canadian Mafia family and is loosely based on true events. No spoilers, but all who liked the Sopranos should probably give it a try.

The series began coming abruptly from a black screen to Dr. Melfi's waiting room. The series ends with a cut to a black screen. The entire premise of the show was about the toll a mobster's two families had on him and how it caused him to black out from a panic attack. How fitting it would be if it ended the same way.

Better yet, how fitting it would be for series to end with Chase creating the sensation of the viewer blacked out from a panic attack after getting completely worked up throughout the entire final scene?

All of these clues about death, a guy giving a stray look as he walks to the bathroom (causing the viewer to think of The Godfather), the cat, the tolling of the bells, Meadow frantically parking as if she is running late and is going to miss... something-- whatever that is.

And this whole time the viewer knows it's the final scene of the series-- time is running out-- what is going to happen---

cut to black. A black out. A panic attack. Over something inocuous as a family meeting for a casual dinner.

that it sparks debate and discussion this many years after it aired.

It is/was brilliant, just like the show overall.

In comment 14256828 rnargi said:

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that's a reasonable...if not brilliant...interpretation. I hadn't thought of that before and frankly, I like it!

Nargi, great to see you back! Hope all is well.

I've floated that idea here before and got shit all over, lol. I've never heard anyone else suggest it either, which always made me think (based on Chase's elusiveness on the subject) maybe I was smart! But the facts laid out and Chase's slip up make it hard to defend today.

and still love it today. I prefer closure with my entertainment because life is unsettling enough. But that ending was riveting. That scene was the most I have ever been on the edge of my seat watching television.

I'm not arguing Tony was definitively NOT killed, just that we didn't see it; there is a much higher burden to prove that he was murdered. Chase shot exactly what he wanted to shoot, and all of the hints, and references, and suggestions are merely left up to interpretation.

there was even the hint that Tony survived. Chase knew, as evidenced by what Tony said to Bobby, that there were two ways out of the modern mafia, getting arrested or getting killed. I always felt it was a missed opportunity not to have Tony arrested in the beginning of the last season and have the drama of the last season about who flips and who doesn't with the courtroom drama playing out and how it affected his family, both the crime and regular one. The show always seemed to stray away from law enforcement and crippling effect it had on organized crime. Junior's trial became a sham, the FBI was always three steps behind him (Tony killing people who cooperate like BP). By giving Tony an out that possibly did not include one of the two scenarios he told to Bobby, I thought was a betrayal of the realism of the show. In the end, it became less realistic and more about Tony the Superman Organized Crime Boss. Think the ending was a major fail.

In comment 14256930 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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you haven't proven anything. All you, and anyone has done, has pointed out all of the references and symbolism that attach to death. You are making a leap of faith that David Chase decided that Tony was killed in the exact same manner that Michael Corleone killed Sollozzo. All of these clues that were noticed at the time and pickced up after the fact only heighten the anxiety and tension of a potential death coming for Tony. Take, for example, the suggestion that the shot of Tony early in the scene was meant to connote The Last Supper. Great shot. But how in any way does that suggest that Tony was killed at that meal? Jesus wasn't killed at The Last Supper. The Last Supper was merely where Jesus predicts that one of his friends would betray him. He was killed on a different day, perhaps even the next day. If anything, one could make the case that symbolism reflects Tony's anxiety that even though New York was taken care of, he still has to worry about who else could target him in the near future.

Jesus, re-look at my post, I said if it's not proven by a shadow of a doubt, there is A LOT of circumstantial evidence.

Given how writers/showrunners INTENTIONALLY add details and direct a scene, especially one as significant as this, no more apparent than the door bell jangling coupled with Tony looking up, and the next thing is Tony POV shot, to me, it seems that those that think Tony wasn't killed or that think this was too ambiguous to say for sure after looking at all the little details in this show, they are the ones that are likely just wishing and hoping beyond reason that Tony survives.

Like Chase says, it's all there, and I would encourage you to watch that video I linked. I know some stuff was noticed and broken down earlier, but this was a more thorough analysis than I had seen.

Further, if you still think it's ambiguous after Chase called it the death scene then I suppose any further discussion will be unfruitful, your mind simply doesn't want to consider any other scenario than Tony surviving.

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Parts of the highly anticipated “Sopranos” prequel movie, “The Many Saints of Newark,” is going to look familiar to fans of the original show. Page Six has learned that New Jersey’s Holsten’s ice cream parlor and eatery, the location of the final scene of “The Sopranos'” series finale, will appear in creator David Chase‘s forthcoming film. The restaurant housed the scene where James Gandolfini’s Tony Soprano and his family noshed on onion rings before famously cutting to black. “HBO contacted us to shoot on location,” Holsten’s co-owner Chris Carley told Page Six in honor of the show’s 20th anniversary. “They’re going to shoot some scenes here.” HBO referred Page Six to New Line Cinema, who said they don’t comment on possible filming locations. “I wish it had been James Gandolfini, but …,” added Carley, trailing off before he could refer to Gandolfini’s 2013 death. Gandolfini, who won three Emmys for his work on the series, died at age 51 in Rome, Italy, of a heart attack. Chase confirmed a young Tony Soprano will be a big part of “The Many Saints of Newark,” though casting is still underway.

Final scene - ( New Window )

In the last few scenes Tony tells Carmela that Carlo flipped and is going to testify.

In comment 14256971 Chris684 said:

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In the last few scenes Tony tells Carmela that Carlo flipped and is going to testify.

I realize that, but again it is very subtle and how it will end up is ambiguous. Other people cooperated with law enforcement, but they ended up not getting to the finish line. My point was simply that the statement to have a realism aspect to it, needed to be more concrete than the ambiguous ending Chase gave us.

...it was glaringly obvious to the point it was near insulting.

I love the finale, think it's artistically one of the best episodes even if it is silly.

I mean, Christ, any real fan was laser-focused on that episode, we all knew 'Don't Stop Believing' was it, we were into the homestretch, the Onion Ring Communion - when Members Only went into the bathroom, we all knew he was either a hit man or a David Chase decoy.

When the screen went black it was clear as day what happened.

Frankly, I was shocked the next day to realize there was a national debate over what happened.

In comment 14256982 x meadowlander said:

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...it was glaringly obvious to the point it was near insulting. I love the finale, think it's artistically one of the best episodes even if it is silly. I mean, Christ, any real fan was laser-focused on that episode, we all knew 'Don't Stop Believing' was it, we were into the homestretch, the Onion Ring Communion - when Members Only went into the bathroom, we all knew he was either a hit man or a David Chase decoy. When the screen went black it was clear as day what happened. Frankly, I was shocked the next day to realize there was a national debate over what happened.

In hindsight I think its obvious that Tony was whacked but that scene was badly done. I and probably millions of others thought there was something wrong with my TV the first time I saw it.

I've watched that video, and others, and read the 10,000 or 30,000 word essay that came out over a decade ago arguing why Tony was definitively killed (https://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/)

I've done the homework and have seen the arguments. It's a theory. It uses a lot of effort and circumstantial evidence to support the theory.

But the circumstantial evidence is largely based on interpretation of the figurative/symbolic. There are plausible ways to interpret those symbols differently, and when that happens, it weakens the concreteness of that initial theory. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

All we saw literally was a guy go to the bathroom and shortly thereafter, Tony looks up and the show immediately cuts to black. That scene and the episodes preceding it are littered with references, suggestions, allusions, and symbols for death. So it's a great interpretation that those were all meant to signify that the final cut to black occurred because Tony was killed and it was instantaneous and cut to black because his POV was over.

But we don't see a gun, we don't see a killer, we don't see a crime scene, we don't see an action, we don't see anything physical to support that because Chase didn't shoot or show any of it.

If Chase wanted to make sure that people knew that Tony died, he would have made sure and not left it open to interpretation. He wasn't afraid to show death on screen.

If instead Chase shot the scene and it ended with Tony getting shot to death and bleeding out, but the episode were riddled with dreamlike references, the person arguing that he wasn't shot and it was all a dream would also have a remarkable burden to overcome in order to prove something that was not explicitly shown.

I don't interpret the scene as Tony dying. The guy going to the bathroom referencing The Godfather conveys perhaps that Tony (or the viewers) has to constantly be on alert even by something as innocuous as going to the bathroom and the viewer takes notice of it because of The Godfather reference.

Why do all of the references to death prove that someone was killed and not merely convey an anxiety or convey a perspective of how one views all situations? The suggestion of death/dread everywhere could suggest the life that TOny has to lead. Even when he's not under threat, he's under threat.

It can't be proven that the "black out" at the end was death and not a "black out." Both were referenced on the show.

In comment 14256982 x meadowlander said:

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...it was glaringly obvious to the point it was near insulting. I mean, Christ, any real fan was laser-focused on that episode, we all knew 'Don't Stop Believing' was it, we were into the homestretch, the Onion Ring Communion - when Members Only went into the bathroom, we all knew he was either a hit man or a David Chase decoy.

The viewers were in the homestretch because we knew it was the end of the series. But why does that necessarily mean that the final scene was going to be something incredible climactic or intense? It was the homestretch for the viewers, not necessarily the homestretch for Tony Soprano in his world.

One could argue that that not a single season ended on an intense, climactic note. It has been a long time since I watched the series as a whole, but I remember the penultimate episodes being the intense ones, and the finales showing more the aftermath and the final scenes being rather tame.

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In comment 14257070 EricJ said:

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Me too

But after rewatching the series years later I have come to appreciate the ending and I think it was appropriate.

He just moved on. A new chapter in his life began.

linguistics. We were watching the first season of Game of Thrones, maybe the third episode or so, and there is a scene after someone had gifted the petrified dragon eggs to Calesi. Where the eggs are sitting in a box and there is a fire burning behind, or in front of, or near the eggs. The girl says oh those dragons eggs are going to hatch! Those things are alive. And I asked how the heck she knew that (I had seen the episode already), and she told me that fire symbolizes life. And as we all know, the dragons in fact hatched from those eggs. My point is, that when a writer or director uses a lot of well known symbolism in a story it is for a purpose. And after hearing all the explanations of symbolism on this thread I do think Chase was telling the fans that Tony did in fact die.

that the audience was the one whacked. Killing Tony would be too schlocky. He was the main character, but the show was not told through his eyes, so ending it that way would not be consistent with the show.

There is a lot of innuendo that points to it being Tony that was killed off. But, it would have been more original to kill off the audience.

Overall, I think it was more an attempt to create a sensation than to wrap up a show.

Didn't like the ending back then and still don't care too much for it today.

I did love the show, the writing, directing and most importantly; the characters. I don't think there was a show where I enjoyed a good majority of the shows characters as I did this one, except for Janice.

The saddest part about Bobby's death was really his kids were left behind with her annoying fat ass.

Still cannot believe it was 20 years ago when it started. I remember watching the first episode with my mom in early 99 and I remember watching the last episode with her again and with my girlfriend at the time in June 2007 for the last ever episode.

My girlfriend was Italian too from North Jersey and a huge fan. I enjoy watching TV shows more than I do watching movies and this show is a main reason why.

Paulie and Patsy Parisi? I guess Sil is still in a coma. I think Max Casella's character is still alive.

Ally boy Barese was a top earner and seemed competent despite his little speech issue. He's still alive in the show. No idea why he disappeared after season 4

It was very tense.

I just wish Tony had turned his head to look to the side if he was indeed whacked.

He was such a dialed in guy that I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have seen someone out of the corner of his eye, especially if it was the guy in the Members Only jacket coming out of the bathroom to Tony's right. The scene gave the impression that Tony took note of him early on.