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The ARI Cardinals - Kyler Murray - Josh Rosen

Sy'56 : 1/9/2019 11:47 pm
I don't want to start a rumor mill, so you can take this for what it is worth.

New ARI Head Coach Kliff Kingsbury loves Kyler Murray.

ARI has the #1 pick

Kyler Murray declared for the draft right after Kingsbury was named Head Coach of AZ.

Not sure Josh Rosen is a personality fit for Kingsbury. That could be me looking too deep in to things, I will admit that.

Leads me to: Can Josh Rosen be had in a trade? I am giving #6 overall if that is the case. Right now. Maybe more.
Sy  
Jarvis : 1/9/2019 11:53 pm : link
How do you view Kyler Murray. How do you compare him to Mayfield ?(knowing your grades are far from done)
Now THAT  
Johnny5 : 1/9/2019 11:55 pm : link
Would be interesting. But wasn't Kingsbury just praising Josh Rosen yesterday? I thought I read something.
RE: Sy  
Giants38 : 1/10/2019 12:01 am : link
In comment 14256291 Jarvis said:
Quote:
How do you view Kyler Murray. How do you compare him to Mayfield ?(knowing your grades are far from done)


He's previously said he does not like him and believes his best position in the NFL is RB. I wonder if he's changed that opinion.
#6?  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/10/2019 12:05 am : link
My goodness, he was awful this season. I like the idea, but I can't trade that pick for him.
Despite the QB prototype changing...  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 12:06 am : link
using the first pick for a 5’9”, 170 lb QB would be incredulous.

And I really like Kyler Murray.





Sy  
adamg : 1/10/2019 12:09 am : link
What were your thoughts on Rosen's rookie year?
On October 20, Kingsbuy said:  
shyster : 1/10/2019 12:11 am : link
"Kyler is a freak…..I would take him with the first pick of the draft if I could."


(via @EricKellyTV) pic.twitter.com/N9m99DkTNr
u can - ( New Window )
Murray  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 12:13 am : link
I want to reserve the right to do my full work on him, but my initial thought is "No Way".

Second, Rosen's rookie year was abysmal. But if you thought NYG's line was bad, go watch ARI. It may have been the worst OL the NFL has seen in years. Rosen had no shot back there. And the throws he did make, his arm talent is already among the best. Still has a ways to go but, as I thought last year, he is the top QB in that class.
RE: Despite the QB prototype changing...  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/10/2019 12:14 am : link
In comment 14256298 bw in dc said:
Quote:
using the first pick for a 5’9”, 170 lb QB would be incredulous.

And I really like Kyler Murray.






I'm in the exact same boat.
RE: Murray  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/10/2019 12:17 am : link
In comment 14256304 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
Second, Rosen's rookie year was abysmal. But if you thought NYG's line was bad, go watch ARI. It may have been the worst OL the NFL has seen in years. Rosen had no shot back there. And the throws he did make, his arm talent is already among the best. Still has a ways to go but, as I thought last year, he is the top QB in that class.


You want to tell me trade down, recoup our third round pick, then trade that for Rosen? Fine. But, #6 is too rich for my blood.
If this trade were to happen  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 12:18 am : link
It would need to be on draft day. No way Arizon takes Murray number 1 overall and pass on Bosa. They'll take Bosa number 1 and if Murray is still there at 6, which he should be, then that is when the trade would happen.
What I meant by "that" is wherever that first round pick is  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/10/2019 12:26 am : link
...
RE: RE: Murray  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 12:31 am : link
In comment 14256310 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256304 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


Second, Rosen's rookie year was abysmal. But if you thought NYG's line was bad, go watch ARI. It may have been the worst OL the NFL has seen in years. Rosen had no shot back there. And the throws he did make, his arm talent is already among the best. Still has a ways to go but, as I thought last year, he is the top QB in that class.



You want to tell me trade down, recoup our third round pick, then trade that for Rosen? Fine. But, #6 is too rich for my blood.


If Rosen was in this draft...#6 would be more than worth it.
Thanks Sy  
adamg : 1/10/2019 12:33 am : link
Interesting thread
Intriguing thought. What if, instead of our #6, we offer them OBJ  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/10/2019 12:41 am : link
for Rosen? Think they'd bite? We get to keep #6 that way and draft a DL or edge rusher.
I’d trade #6 pick  
mattyblue : 1/10/2019 12:49 am : link
for Rosen in a heartbeat. I would probably give another pick on top of it. You would end up having come out of the 2018 draft with the best QB and best player. Totally worth it
I'd trade a player or 2nd or later for Rosen  
widmerseyebrow : 1/10/2019 12:52 am : link
#6 would be ridiculous for a guy who will be out of a job and, as you said, had an abysmal year.
As far as Rosen is concerned, I watched a lot of CFB in 16 & 17,  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/10/2019 1:14 am : link
and when it came down to whom to select at #2 overall, I would have been equally happy with Darnold or Rosen instead of Saquon, and I loved Saquon and had been following him closely since early in 16.

UCLA vs USC in 2017, Rosen looked like a better NFL prospect than Darnold, hands down. In general, I've rarely seen a QB suffer more drops from his receivers than Rosen suffered at UCLA over 16 & 17. His receivers were abysmal.
RE: Despite the QB prototype changing...  
mattyblue : 1/10/2019 1:26 am : link
In comment 14256298 bw in dc said:
Quote:
using the first pick for a 5’9”, 170 lb QB would be incredulous.

And I really like Kyler Murray.






Where do you take that height and weight from? I’ve read 5’10 and 5’11 with everything saying either 190 and 195 pounds. Not saying you are wrong or trying to start an argument just really wonder what his actual size is. I remember last year Mayfield was shrinking by the week and he measured and weighed out pretty much as listed at the combine.
RE: I’d trade #6 pick  
MOOPS : 1/10/2019 1:26 am : link
In comment 14256319 mattyblue said:
Quote:
for Rosen in a heartbeat. I would probably give another pick on top of it. You would end up having come out of the 2018 draft with the best QB and best player. Totally worth it


Your best QB was the fourth QB to come off the board in 2018. That happened for a reason.
RE: Murray  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 1:29 am : link
In comment 14256304 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
I want to reserve the right to do my full work on him, but my initial thought is "No Way".

Second, Rosen's rookie year was abysmal. But if you thought NYG's line was bad, go watch ARI. It may have been the worst OL the NFL has seen in years. Rosen had no shot back there. And the throws he did make, his arm talent is already among the best. Still has a ways to go but, as I thought last year, he is the top QB in that class.


Every QB taken in the first round showed flashes. Mayfield may win ROTY. Darnold finished the last quarter of the season well. Allen was incredible in his ability to get yards rushing. I think he led the league in rushing yards from Thanksgiving on. LJax was a greater threat in the running game than even I thought. And like you said, Rosen showed off his great throwing ability in small spurts.

But you are right. Rosen’s supporting cast was a train wreck. That oline was a sieve. The good thing was he survived without being injured like he was too often at UCLA.

Undoubtedly the talent is there...
RE: RE: RE: Murray  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/10/2019 1:31 am : link
In comment 14256315 Sy'56 said:
Quote:



If Rosen was in this draft...#6 would be more than worth it.


But he isn't in this draft. We got to see him this past season and it's safe to say of the 4 teams that drafted QBs early in the first round, Arizona is easily the least enamored. I understand their OL is worse than the Giants and it wasn't remotely all Rosen's fault. However, the Jets, Bills, and Browns aren't trading their young QB for the 6th pick or any pick. If Rosen impressed as much as those three, it wouldn't matter how much KK loves Murray. We simply would not be having this discussion.

Like I said earlier, I like the idea of trading for him. I just don't like the idea of trading the 6th pick in the draft for him.
Rosen  
Big_Pete : 1/10/2019 2:13 am : link
The key to whether Josh Rosen could be a viable trade option will depend on how Gettleman and Shurmur graded him last year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Murray  
Deejboy : 1/10/2019 2:42 am : link
In comment 14256331 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256315 Sy'56 said:


Quote:





If Rosen was in this draft...#6 would be more than worth it.



But he isn't in this draft. We got to see him this past season and it's safe to say of the 4 teams that drafted QBs early in the first round, Arizona is easily the least enamored. I understand their OL is worse than the Giants and it wasn't remotely all Rosen's fault. However, the Jets, Bills, and Browns aren't trading their young QB for the 6th pick or any pick. If Rosen impressed as much as those three, it wouldn't matter how much KK loves Murray. We simply would not be having this discussion.

Like I said earlier, I like the idea of trading for him. I just don't like the idea of trading the 6th pick in the draft for him.

Disagree about the Bills and Josh Allen. The guy had a 52% completion percentage. It was 56% in college and historically that doesn't improve from college to the NFL. Allen might never be accurate enough to be a good QB in the NFL.
Wow  
You'reMyBoyBlue!! : 1/10/2019 2:50 am : link
Thankfully you aren't the GM
Regarding Rosen, I think he could be a great qb with protection,  
Ira : 1/10/2019 5:06 am : link
but I'm still concerned about his concussion history.
Rosen lost his OL to injury  
jeff57 : 1/10/2019 5:20 am : link
Had a 66.7 passer rating. Eli had a 55.4 rating his rookie season.
RE: #6?  
Tuckrule : 1/10/2019 5:40 am : link
In comment 14256297 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
My goodness, he was awful this season. I like the idea, but I can't trade that pick for him.


His team wasn’t very good. Put him on the Browns this past year with those weapons and defense and you would see him flourish. Can’t compare mayfield situation to Rosen, darnold or Allen. I think darnold and Allen actually showed more promise than what mayfield did. That’s just my opinion. When it’s all said and done I would say darnold Allen Rosen and then mayfield in that order.
Interesting ...  
Beer Man : 1/10/2019 5:59 am : link
Can you imagine if such a deal could be worked out. All the bitching on BBI about the Giants not taking Darnold or Rosen in 2017 would end. Both crowds (take QB, take Barkley)from last year would be happy as we would have Barkley and Rosen.


All kidding aside, Rosen would easily be the best QB in this draft, and certainly worthy of the #6 pick.
Rosen for our #6 - Sign me Up!!!!  
ZogZerg : 1/10/2019 6:21 am : link
That would be awesome!

This Front Office passed on Rosen once already  
Jimmy Googs : 1/10/2019 6:46 am : link
I know these would be different circumstance but the fact remains...
Interesting...  
aimrocky : 1/10/2019 6:47 am : link
A few weeks ago this guy in my office who works as an independent contractor with NFL clubs cap departments mentioned that Arizona had soured on Rosen because of his personality. He thought he could be had in a trade and thought the Giants may explore it. He actually said he thought Rosen would be a Giant.

This guy has a rep for being a blowhard, so I just nodded and went on with my day, thinking that rumor was so far out there it couldn’t be true. Maybe it does have legs.
Sy may have started the thread  
section125 : 1/10/2019 6:54 am : link
of the day.

Rosen was my choice for QB last year. Yes I would trade #6 for Rosen. But Murray will not be a high 1st rounder. He is way to small for probably 30 out of 32 teams. Seems to be a high character guy, crazy fast and quick with a VG arm.

Sign me up.
RE: This Front Office passed on Rosen once already  
section125 : 1/10/2019 6:57 am : link
In comment 14256358 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
I know these would be different circumstance but the fact remains...


THey passed on him for what the considered a better player. Who knows if he was their highest rated QB or not. They passed on Chubb and Nelson, too. You don't think they would take either if they had the chance?
Milton's ears just perked up  
Anakim : 1/10/2019 7:05 am : link
.
RE: This Front Office passed on Rosen once already  
Tuckrule : 1/10/2019 7:07 am : link
In comment 14256358 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
I know these would be different circumstance but the fact remains...


We didn’t pass on Rosen. We passed on every qb for a generational freak talent. We would have passed on mayfield as well and I truly believe that DG wanted Barkley all along. I would 100 percent trade the six overall for Rosen right now and I beleive to get him would cost more than that
Hmmmm  
twostepgiants : 1/10/2019 7:14 am : link
Kliff Kingsbury back on October 28, 2018:

"Kyler is a freak.....I would take him with the first pick of the draft if I could."

👀👀👀
(via @EricKellyTV)
Boomer  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/10/2019 7:16 am : link
said yesterday that Arizona should/could draft Haskins and trade Josh Rosen. It's interesting that a similar idea has developed. if the Cardinals are willing to trade a known quantity for an unknown quantity, that seems to not be a great endorsement of Rosen by the people who saw him up close every day.
I’d take Haskins  
NikkiMac : 1/10/2019 7:18 am : link
Over trading for Rosen
RE: Hmmmm  
Anakim : 1/10/2019 7:18 am : link
In comment 14256373 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
Kliff Kingsbury back on October 28, 2018:

"Kyler is a freak.....I would take him with the first pick of the draft if I could."

👀👀👀
(via @EricKellyTV)


Haha, well now he could
This seems like a silly rumor just to get people talking.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/10/2019 7:19 am : link
Nothing would scream 'directionless franchise' more than quitting on a QB after one year in which the team fielded a horrific roster and then fired their first year head coach.
Rosen was my guy last year  
The_Boss : 1/10/2019 7:21 am : link
If he’s for sale, I would absolutely pull the trigger on the #6. You release Eli, save the $$, and finally feel as if this thing is moving forward.
If Rosen has the potential espoused here,  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 7:22 am : link
you keep and continue to develop him and use use the best picks in the draft to rebuild that OL.

Getting rid of him after 1 year is nonsense, imo. Their new HC might not even last 2 years there for all we know and then what?

Will never happen, imv, especially if JR is as good or has the potential to be good as you guys say he is.
RE: This seems like a silly rumor just to get people talking.  
Diver_Down : 1/10/2019 7:25 am : link
In comment 14256379 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Nothing would scream 'directionless franchise' more than quitting on a QB after one year in which the team fielded a horrific roster and then fired their first year head coach.


Add to it, that in the introductory presser, they admitted that they would like to run a 3-4 a year after they switched to the 4-3. Keim said he is looking for a veteran coach to install the new defense. I would trade them Bettcher.
RE: I’d take Haskins  
section125 : 1/10/2019 7:32 am : link
In comment 14256376 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
Over trading for Rosen


You might, but Rosen is the better QB. I like Haskins, but Rosen is better.
RE: RE: Despite the QB prototype changing...  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 7:47 am : link
In comment 14256326 mattyblue said:
Quote:



Where do you take that height and weight from? I’ve read 5’10 and 5’11 with everything saying either 190 and 195 pounds. Not saying you are wrong or trying to start an argument just really wonder what his actual size is. I remember last year Mayfield was shrinking by the week and he measured and weighed out pretty much as listed at the combine.


You’re right. I will use his height/weight out of high school when he was a college prospect. To me, he looks like the same kid. In their roster guide, Oklahoma just rounds up to make him seem bigger... ; )

I love the kid’s skills, have been touting him all year as the most prolific dual threat QB I’ve ever seen in college. But his size is going to be a very big deal for the draft - even if he’s 5’10”, 190. Manziel looked very small on TV. Murray looks even smaller...

I'd wager Murray  
JonC : 1/10/2019 7:51 am : link
is 5'9
I really want a pass rusher early in the draft  
Rjanyg : 1/10/2019 7:59 am : link
But if Rosen can be had in a trade, I would like to get an extra pick from AZ along with Rosen, like at least their 3rd round pick.

So we trade our 6th pick overall for Rosen and Arizona’s 3rd round pick which is the first pick of the 3rd round.

I would so that for sure.
Losing 1 year off Rosen's rookie contract  
CromartiesKid21 : 1/10/2019 8:00 am : link
to take his lumps last year is worth the #6 pick.

Instead of Rosen marinating on the bench "learning" from Eli we are able to dissect his value behind the worst OL in the NFL past 10 years is very valuable
RE: Losing 1 year off Rosen's rookie contract  
Diver_Down : 1/10/2019 8:03 am : link
In comment 14256397 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
to take his lumps last year is worth the #6 pick.

Instead of Rosen marinating on the bench "learning" from Eli we are able to dissect his value behind the worst OL in the NFL past 10 years is very valuable


Also, Arizona would eat the signing bonus and we would pick up the valuable 5th year option.
I’d rather just take Murray  
UConn4523 : 1/10/2019 8:06 am : link
.
I was all in on Rosen last year BUT  
twostepgiants : 1/10/2019 8:10 am : link
I dont see how its possible

Its like buying a car, you drive it off the lot and it's value goes down

Josh Rosen went #10 last year and the perception is that he had a rough year. That would be furthered by an interest in trading Rosen by Arizona as it will be perceived as "getting out" of Rosen

His value, despite draft grades, will be less than the #10 pick and not the 6 pick.

Just on public perception, an organization and a GM wont do that.

I dont think its as low as a 2nd rounder the Giants could offer but I cant imagine the Giants trading this years 6 pick for a guy who fell to 10 lasy year over attitude concerns and came in and didnt play well and his team is trading him and drafting a new QB.
RE: Losing 1 year off Rosen's rookie contract  
Beer Man : 1/10/2019 8:10 am : link
In comment 14256397 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
to take his lumps last year is worth the #6 pick.

Instead of Rosen marinating on the bench "learning" from Eli we are able to dissect his value behind the worst OL in the NFL past 10 years is very valuable
IMO, if the team pulled off this trade, Eli would be released for the cap savings.
I think his draft value should be lower than #6 overall  
JonC : 1/10/2019 8:17 am : link
There might be a time out there that would pay the price, but I think a fair price is lower.
Rosen for a 6? Absolutely.  
Blue21 : 1/10/2019 8:17 am : link
.
RE: RE: This Front Office passed on Rosen once already  
Jimmy Googs : 1/10/2019 8:20 am : link
In comment 14256368 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14256358 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


I know these would be different circumstance but the fact remains...



We didn’t pass on Rosen. We passed on every qb for a generational freak talent. We would have passed on mayfield as well and I truly believe that DG wanted Barkley all along. I would 100 percent trade the six overall for Rosen right now and I beleive to get him would cost more than that


Um ok. Neverthless we passed...
We passed on Rosen, and Darnold  
JonC : 1/10/2019 8:22 am : link
Word on the beat was the Giants only liked Darnold, not a squeak on Rose, fwiw.
RE: RE: This Front Office passed on Rosen once already  
Jimmy Googs : 1/10/2019 8:23 am : link
In comment 14256365 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256358 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


I know these would be different circumstance but the fact remains...



THey passed on him for what the considered a better player. Who knows if he was their highest rated QB or not. They passed on Chubb and Nelson, too. You don't think they would take either if they had the chance?


I agree we don't know, except we do know we could have picked Rosen (and theoretically we could have made deals to go get him) but we passed.
I would trade the 6th pick  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 8:23 am : link
In a heartbeat. That would be an incredible turn of events for the Giants. I wanted Darnold or Rosen last year and to get Rosen now would be a great move for the Giants.
RE: I was all in on Rosen last year BUT  
section125 : 1/10/2019 8:30 am : link
In comment 14256404 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
I dont see how its possible

Its like buying a car, you drive it off the lot and it's value goes down

Josh Rosen went #10 last year and the perception is that he had a rough year. That would be furthered by an interest in trading Rosen by Arizona as it will be perceived as "getting out" of Rosen

His value, despite draft grades, will be less than the #10 pick and not the 6 pick.

Just on public perception, an organization and a GM wont do that.

I dont think its as low as a 2nd rounder the Giants could offer but I cant imagine the Giants trading this years 6 pick for a guy who fell to 10 lasy year over attitude concerns and came in and didnt play well and his team is trading him and drafting a new QB.


An NFL QB is not a car, and they don't depreciate over the rookie season unless they are Jemarcus Russell.

The team wants to run a different offense and the existing QB cannot run it. Does not mean he did anything wrong and trading him gets something back. So why would his value drop when he survived a difficult year? He proved he can survive a lousy offensive line and team. Those would be pluses.

Public perception? GTFO. If teams operated on public perception they would fold in a minute. Rosen didn't kill, rape, assault or harm anybody. He is a QB that may not fit the next HC philosophy, period. Trade him for picks.

If Rosen was in this draft, he would easily be the highest rated QB. He has a year's worth of NFL tape. His draft position last year is irrelevant to this year. The only things that matter are if he can run an NFL offense that Shurmur wants to run, is his arm capable of making the throws necessary and did the FO see improvement throughout the year that would warrant Rosen becoming the next franchise QB of the New York Giants.
Section is righr  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 8:38 am : link
If Rosen was in this draft he would be the consensus #1 pick. What inpressed me about Rosen last year was that he stayed healthy despite playing behind an awful offensive line.
And for what it’s worth  
The_Boss : 1/10/2019 8:38 am : link
If I had to choose a 2020 QB or Josh Rosen, I’m taking Rosen. And, full disclosure, Jake Fromm was/is always going to be “my guy” for 2020.
.  
Danny Kanell : 1/10/2019 8:40 am : link
Schefter is now reporting this rumor. He probably reads BBI.
RE: Section is righr  
UConn4523 : 1/10/2019 8:43 am : link
In comment 14256430 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
If Rosen was in this draft he would be the consensus #1 pick. What inpressed me about Rosen last year was that he stayed healthy despite playing behind an awful offensive line.


How can anyone possibly know that pre-combine? Bowl games just ended, the #1 pick last year who took many by surprise due to his size will likely win ROY, and Rosen will still have his attitude issues.

I think he might best the first QB taken in 2019 but its far from a certainty.
Schefert just confrimed  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 1/10/2019 8:46 am : link
The rumor.

The Cardinals are a dumpster fire though. I don’t know how you can blame Rosen after playing behind that Oline that was just brutal.
I don’t know if I’d offer 6 for him..  
Sean : 1/10/2019 8:47 am : link
Did the Cardinals ever even like Rosen or were they desperate? Try to build a package around the 2nd round pick although I doubt Arizona does it.
Attitude  
Gruber : 1/10/2019 8:48 am : link
Wasn't Rosen the rookie QB who shouted at/lost his temper with his OL during pre-season practice? I keept an eye on the newly drafted QB's, and there definitely was an incident preseason which raised eyebrows about attitude. Definitely wasn't Darnold or Jackson, pretty sure it wasn't Baker Mayfield, which leaves the two Joshes.
Rosen will also require a solid OL-  
Sean : 1/10/2019 8:48 am : link
How has that worked out the last 6 years?
IMO, If the attitude...  
Strip-Sack : 1/10/2019 8:51 am : link
problems were an issue last year, they'll be an issue this year....especially if they've been confirmed in his first year. If so, the Giants will not touch him for #6.....maybe they'd risk a lower rd pick. They're trying to develop a good culture in NY and there is no way they will insert an "attitude problem" at QB at this point. Of course, this all assumes the rumors about his attitude are true and we just don't know but I'm thinking the Giants will have a much better read on this.
RE: Schefert just confrimed  
ajr2456 : 1/10/2019 8:53 am : link
In comment 14256437 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
The rumor.

The Cardinals are a dumpster fire though. I don’t know how you can blame Rosen after playing behind that Oline that was just brutal.


Where did Schefter confirm it?

If the Cardinals called asking for the 6th pick for Rosen you say yes.
RE: Rosen will also require a solid OL-  
UConn4523 : 1/10/2019 8:55 am : link
In comment 14256441 Sean said:
Quote:
How has that worked out the last 6 years?


We have no choice but to keep improving the OL, it shouldn't stop being a priority depending on the type of QB we have.
RE: RE: Schefert just confrimed  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 1/10/2019 8:57 am : link
In comment 14256443 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256437 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


The rumor.

The Cardinals are a dumpster fire though. I don’t know how you can blame Rosen after playing behind that Oline that was just brutal.



Where did Schefter confirm it?

If the Cardinals called asking for the 6th pick for Rosen you say yes.



NFL logoNFL Schefter Floats Josh Rosen Trade Scenario 👀 - ( New Window )
RE: I'd wager Murray  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 8:58 am : link
In comment 14256394 JonC said:
Quote:
is 5'9


Or less
Attitude/personality  
JonC : 1/10/2019 8:58 am : link
were reportedly part of why teams hit pause on Rosen.
There are  
Jon in NYC : 1/10/2019 9:01 am : link
0 things Rosen did last year to make anyone think he's a franchise guy.
I'd rather  
TommyWiseau : 1/10/2019 9:03 am : link
have Haskins then Rosen
I know everyone loves the idea of running the 3-4  
Diver_Down : 1/10/2019 9:03 am : link
from the nostalgia of their boyhood memories. But we aren't any closer to running a 3-4 as we are to a 4-3. With Keim looking for a veteran coach to run a 3-4, trading Bettcher along with a package of picks (not #6) would give a lot of credence to the fan base where Bettcher is respected.

3-4/4-3, it doesn't matter. We just need to field a competent defense. We can't do that now. Heck, if we could sign sumo wrestlers from BBI lore, we should do that. It would be more respectable than the trash that takes the field now.
RE: RE: Rosen will also require a solid OL-  
Sean : 1/10/2019 9:04 am : link
In comment 14256446 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256441 Sean said:


Quote:


How has that worked out the last 6 years?



We have no choice but to keep improving the OL, it shouldn't stop being a priority depending on the type of QB we have.


Fully agree, UConn.
RE: IMO, If the attitude...  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 9:06 am : link
In comment 14256442 Strip-Sack said:
Quote:
problems were an issue last year, they'll be an issue this year....especially if they've been confirmed in his first year. If so, the Giants will not touch him for #6.....maybe they'd risk a lower rd pick. They're trying to develop a good culture in NY and there is no way they will insert an "attitude problem" at QB at this point. Of course, this all assumes the rumors about his attitude are true and we just don't know but I'm thinking the Giants will have a much better read on this.

This is my thought as well. And, I still have the same longevity concerns about him that I had last year. With a season under his belt, nfl gms (who talk) can do more than just base the pick on innate talent. And, DG has repeatedly emphasized team culture. I'm guessing for that reason (and longevity means they might be back at the Tuo well next year...2 #1 picks on QB's) the pole DG would need to touch Rosen would be very long indeed.
Can we substantiate the "attitude" stuff before believing it?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/10/2019 9:09 am : link
.
RE: I know everyone loves the idea of running the 3-4  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 1/10/2019 9:09 am : link
In comment 14256459 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
from the nostalgia of their boyhood memories. But we aren't any closer to running a 3-4 as we are to a 4-3. With Keim looking for a veteran coach to run a 3-4, trading Bettcher along with a package of picks (not #6) would give a lot of credence to the fan base where Bettcher is respected.

3-4/4-3, it doesn't matter. We just need to field a competent defense. We can't do that now. Heck, if we could sign sumo wrestlers from BBI lore, we should do that. It would be more respectable than the trash that takes the field now.


I'm confused why you are discussing this here under the Rosen thread.

Agree, that we need to fix the defense, but priority #1 should be to complete the rebuild of the offensive line.
RE: Can we substantiate the  
JonC : 1/10/2019 9:10 am : link
In comment 14256466 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
.


It came from various scouting reports that leaked, it wasn't invented.

You're free to ignore these bullet points, if it offends you.
Looks like AZ...  
Dan in the Springs : 1/10/2019 9:10 am : link
is in QB hell.
Imagine walking away with Barkley and Rosen, wow.  
PatersonPlank : 1/10/2019 9:11 am : link
I wouldn't touch Murray. Just don't think he can be a QB in the NFL. Maybe some other position, but after watching him in numerous games I just don't see it. What he does well is better suited for college. With the NFL athletes he won't be as athletically superior, and then you get into issues like how will he throw from the pocket at 5'9" when the DL and OL is 6'4". It will be like Flutie
Let Murray  
dep026 : 1/10/2019 9:13 am : link
go number 1.
Let someone take Haskins before us.

Bosa
Q. Williams
Josh Allen
Jonah Williams/Clein Ferrell/Devin White

Giants become very happy.
RE: RE: I know everyone loves the idea of running the 3-4  
Diver_Down : 1/10/2019 9:14 am : link
In comment 14256467 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 14256459 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


from the nostalgia of their boyhood memories. But we aren't any closer to running a 3-4 as we are to a 4-3. With Keim looking for a veteran coach to run a 3-4, trading Bettcher along with a package of picks (not #6) would give a lot of credence to the fan base where Bettcher is respected.

3-4/4-3, it doesn't matter. We just need to field a competent defense. We can't do that now. Heck, if we could sign sumo wrestlers from BBI lore, we should do that. It would be more respectable than the trash that takes the field now.



I'm confused why you are discussing this here under the Rosen thread.

Agree, that we need to fix the defense, but priority #1 should be to complete the rebuild of the offensive line.


I suggested it above when others are speculating draft picks to trade. The team has other assets besides draft collateral to trade. I might be in the minority and plenty have offered the excuse that Bettcher didn't have the talent to work with, but I don't see any reason why we have to married to that guy. His defense was awful (talent to a degree), but so was the playcalling. He was known for blitzing yet, time and again teams converted 3rd downs for firsts and marched down the field like a hot knife through butter.
It doesn't "offend" me  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/10/2019 9:14 am : link
I'm just constantly surprised that football fans who have been doing this for a long time still buy into this 'scouting' rumor mill, or at least they do when it confirms their biases. A lot of bullshit gets sent around during the draft, a lot of it is nonsense. Baker Mayfield was 'too small' and a'system quarterback'. Rosen doesn't want to play football because his family is rich. Nonsense stuff.
Rosen  
Archer : 1/10/2019 9:16 am : link
I would trade for Rosen, but, not for the sixth pick.
I would trade the 6th for Rosen and Arizona's second pick.
Or the Giants second this year and a third next year.

While Rosen has potential he was statistically the worst QB in the NFL last year.

He demonstrated good and bad traits. He did, however, show a really good arm and toughness.
That is a place to start.
This would be a pretty  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2019 9:16 am : link
terrible decision by the Cardinals. Trading the QB you took at 10 overall who is a much better pro prospect who has played only 1 year with an absolutely terrible OL and roster...for Kyler Murray?
Rosen is worth the 6th  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/10/2019 9:17 am : link
But you might be able to get him for less. And every GM in the league would be ecstatic if Murray went # 1. He's really talented but will need to adjust big time. And he's not close to Wilson's build. Easy to say sitting on your couch He can take Hifs from Guys literally twice his size
This was discussed extensively  
Koffman : 1/10/2019 9:18 am : link
on ESPN morning radio. The Giants were of course mentioned as being one of the top teams that would be interested.
RE: It doesn't  
JonC : 1/10/2019 9:19 am : link
In comment 14256477 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
I'm just constantly surprised that football fans who have been doing this for a long time still buy into this 'scouting' rumor mill, or at least they do when it confirms their biases. A lot of bullshit gets sent around during the draft, a lot of it is nonsense. Baker Mayfield was 'too small' and a'system quarterback'. Rosen doesn't want to play football because his family is rich. Nonsense stuff.


Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.
so we give are 6th pick  
mdthedream : 1/10/2019 9:21 am : link
and more for a guy that looked avg and was picked 10th? No thanks
RE: RE: RE: I know everyone loves the idea of running the 3-4  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 1/10/2019 9:24 am : link
In comment 14256476 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14256467 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


In comment 14256459 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


from the nostalgia of their boyhood memories. But we aren't any closer to running a 3-4 as we are to a 4-3. With Keim looking for a veteran coach to run a 3-4, trading Bettcher along with a package of picks (not #6) would give a lot of credence to the fan base where Bettcher is respected.

3-4/4-3, it doesn't matter. We just need to field a competent defense. We can't do that now. Heck, if we could sign sumo wrestlers from BBI lore, we should do that. It would be more respectable than the trash that takes the field now.



I'm confused why you are discussing this here under the Rosen thread.

Agree, that we need to fix the defense, but priority #1 should be to complete the rebuild of the offensive line.



I suggested it above when others are speculating draft picks to trade. The team has other assets besides draft collateral to trade. I might be in the minority and plenty have offered the excuse that Bettcher didn't have the talent to work with, but I don't see any reason why we have to married to that guy. His defense was awful (talent to a degree), but so was the playcalling. He was known for blitzing yet, time and again teams converted 3rd downs for firsts and marched down the field like a hot knife through butter.


Our defense lacked a ton of talent everywhere besides the DTs. Our LBs and secondary are brutal and we had Vernon as the only pass rusher in the team and on top of that we made a switch to a 3-4.

I give B a pass. In all honesty I know the d wasn’t very good, but I wasn’t nearly as frustrated as I have been in the past. We gave up leads in the 4th quarter, that’s when teams with good depth win ball games and teams with non loose them.
Sy  
mdthedream : 1/10/2019 9:24 am : link
seems to me with Haskins we now have two good choices at 6. Love Murray ability to move in the pocket and run as well.
RE: so we give are 6th pick  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 9:25 am : link
In comment 14256486 mdthedream said:
Quote:
and more for a guy that looked avg and was picked 10th? No thanks


Jared Goff looked less than average his rookie year.

Has anyone heard from Milton?  
figgy2989 : 1/10/2019 9:25 am : link
I am sure he still unconscious after fainting hearing the rumor.

It is funny that sometime during the season, he threw out this wacky scenario where Rosen would be traded to the Giants. He was obviously joking, but it is amusing that this rumor is actually out there now.
RE: Sy  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 9:26 am : link
In comment 14256489 mdthedream said:
Quote:
seems to me with Haskins we now have two good choices at 6. Love Murray ability to move in the pocket and run as well.


I understand the awe of Murray. But I don't see it, not yet. I havent charted things with him yet though, so I still have work to do. I was under assumption all year he would play baseball, so I didn't scout. But I don't see him being much better overall than McSorley to be honest.
RE: Section is righr  
lax counsel : 1/10/2019 9:27 am : link
In comment 14256430 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
If Rosen was in this draft he would be the consensus #1 pick. What inpressed me about Rosen last year was that he stayed healthy despite playing behind an awful offensive line.


Agreed, Rosen in this draft would be the consensus top pick. He happened to be in a very talented 2018 qb class. Yes, I would trade the number 6 overall pick for him in a minute. Alternative is likely to wait until 2020 and have to give up multiple assets to get a qb.
RE: RE: Section is righr  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 9:34 am : link
In comment 14256493 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 14256430 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


If Rosen was in this draft he would be the consensus #1 pick. What inpressed me about Rosen last year was that he stayed healthy despite playing behind an awful offensive line.



Agreed, Rosen in this draft would be the consensus top pick. He happened to be in a very talented 2018 qb class. Yes, I would trade the number 6 overall pick for him in a minute. Alternative is likely to wait until 2020 and have to give up multiple assets to get a qb.


Worried that we do that regardless. And then we could have had a D- or O-line.
Saw this Tweet on Rosen  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/10/2019 9:35 am : link
Quote:
Graham Barfield

@GrahamBarfield
No quarterback was pressured more often (37.2%), threw into a tight window more often (21.6%), or had a lower expected completion percentage (59.4%)—based on the difficulty of the throw—than Josh Rosen did in 2018.

This will certainly change under Kliff Kingsbury.


I think coming to a conclusion on Rosen just based off of that one rookie year is a mistake.

A rookie QB-- especially one that isn't a QB/WR type-- shouldn't have to deal with that horrific an offensive line.
RE: Looks like AZ...  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14256470 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
is in QB hell.


I'm not being a dick but that phrase is overused and used incorrectly if you are going by Gettleman's definition.
RE: RE: It doesn't  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/10/2019 9:38 am : link
In comment 14256483 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14256477 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


I'm just constantly surprised that football fans who have been doing this for a long time still buy into this 'scouting' rumor mill, or at least they do when it confirms their biases. A lot of bullshit gets sent around during the draft, a lot of it is nonsense. Baker Mayfield was 'too small' and a'system quarterback'. Rosen doesn't want to play football because his family is rich. Nonsense stuff.



Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.


It wasn't a comment specifically at you, I'm not opposed to people contributing to the site, but my preference, if we're calling into question a player's personality or character is that it should be treated responsibly. People are very quick to run with such things. At least Baker earned that with his stupid run in with the cops.
RE: RE: It doesn't  
section125 : 1/10/2019 9:40 am : link
In comment 14256483 JonC said:
Quote:

Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.


You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?

On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.
I would give serious consideration  
Matt in SGS : 1/10/2019 9:40 am : link
to trading that #6 for Rosen. If you can go back in time 1 year and say the Giants would end up Saquon and Rosen, and it would cost the #6 overall the next year, I think everyone would jump on that.
RE: RE: Section is righr  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 9:41 am : link
In comment 14256493 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 14256430 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


If Rosen was in this draft he would be the consensus #1 pick. What inpressed me about Rosen last year was that he stayed healthy despite playing behind an awful offensive line.



Agreed, Rosen in this draft would be the consensus top pick. He happened to be in a very talented 2018 qb class. Yes, I would trade the number 6 overall pick for him in a minute. Alternative is likely to wait until 2020 and have to give up multiple assets to get a qb.


What do you mean he would be the consensus top pick? I am a fan of Rosen's but how can anybody say he'd be the consensus top pick. He fell to 10 last year. Take the QBs out of the equation, you had Barkley, Chubb, Nelson, Ward, and other non QBs drafted before him. If you want to say he'd be the consenus top QB then okay but saying he'd be the consenus top pick is a big difference.
RE: I would trade the 6th pick  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 9:41 am : link
In comment 14256417 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In a heartbeat. That would be an incredible turn of events for the Giants. I wanted Darnold or Rosen last year and to get Rosen now would be a great move for the Giants.


Cards may not want the pick. They may want OBJ.
Think about..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2019 9:43 am : link
a move like that - it has to be good value at #6.

You are getting a QB entering Year 2. You could cut Eli and use the cap savings on the lines. You have a cost-controlled QB who was highly touted.

You still have the risk that Rosen will continue to suck, but to get the chance to take that risk at #6 - it is likely worth it.
RE: I’d trade #6 pick  
Bramton1 : 1/10/2019 9:44 am : link
In comment 14256319 mattyblue said:
Quote:
for Rosen in a heartbeat. I would probably give another pick on top of it. You would end up having come out of the 2018 draft with the best QB and best player. Totally worth it


So to be clear...
You would trade the 6th overall pick, plus a second pick, for a player who was drafted 10th last year and had a crappy season?
RE: RE: RE: Section is righr  
lax counsel : 1/10/2019 9:45 am : link
In comment 14256518 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256493 lax counsel said:


Quote:


In comment 14256430 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


If Rosen was in this draft he would be the consensus #1 pick. What inpressed me about Rosen last year was that he stayed healthy despite playing behind an awful offensive line.



Agreed, Rosen in this draft would be the consensus top pick. He happened to be in a very talented 2018 qb class. Yes, I would trade the number 6 overall pick for him in a minute. Alternative is likely to wait until 2020 and have to give up multiple assets to get a qb.



What do you mean he would be the consensus top pick? I am a fan of Rosen's but how can anybody say he'd be the consensus top pick. He fell to 10 last year. Take the QBs out of the equation, you had Barkley, Chubb, Nelson, Ward, and other non QBs drafted before him. If you want to say he'd be the consenus top QB then okay but saying he'd be the consenus top pick is a big difference.



Meant to say consensus top qb. Which I think would give him a good shot at #1 overall.
RE: RE: I’d trade #6 pick  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 9:47 am : link
In comment 14256521 Bramton1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256319 mattyblue said:


Quote:


for Rosen in a heartbeat. I would probably give another pick on top of it. You would end up having come out of the 2018 draft with the best QB and best player. Totally worth it



So to be clear...
You would trade the 6th overall pick, plus a second pick, for a player who was drafted 10th last year and had a crappy season?


Let's be honest. How many ARI games did you watch in full?
Id trade  
TommyWiseau : 1/10/2019 9:48 am : link
The 6th overall if we got Rosen and a pick back.
Question: If Rosen wasn’t deemed a franchise-worthy guy by  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 9:50 am : link
Shurmur last year, what in Rosen’s play this past season, would change Shurmur’s and DG’s mind? No matter how great SB was considered to be at the time, there’s little question in this fan’s mind, if Rosen was franchise-worthy to PS and DG, they would have run to tge podium and passed on SB, imv..
#6 overall  
SHO'NUFF : 1/10/2019 9:51 am : link
if we get Rosen and their 3rd
RE: RE: RE: It doesn't  
JonC : 1/10/2019 9:53 am : link
In comment 14256514 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256483 JonC said:


Quote:



Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.



You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?

On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.


It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.
Look  
mdthedream : 1/10/2019 9:55 am : link
if Arizona wants Murrey than they are in a spot they would have to trade Rosen and the 6th pick is more than enough because no one else will give more. Otherwise they don't draft Murrey.
And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 9:55 am : link
with their top pick?
RE: Question: If Rosen wasn’t deemed a franchise-worthy guy by  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 9:56 am : link
In comment 14256529 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Shurmur last year, what in Rosen’s play this past season, would change Shurmur’s and DG’s mind? No matter how great SB was considered to be at the time, there’s little question in this fan’s mind, if Rosen was franchise-worthy to PS and DG, they would have run to tge podium and passed on SB, imv..


I disagree. The selection of Barkley was NOT an indictment of poor QB grades. They simply had Barkley had that much higher and didn't want to pass on a prospect that had the second ever perfect grade throughout Gettlemen's long career.
Schefter on this  
jeff57 : 1/10/2019 9:57 am : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: It doesn't  
JonC : 1/10/2019 9:57 am : link
In comment 14256532 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14256514 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14256483 JonC said:


Quote:



Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.



You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?

On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.



It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.


And, how they view and treat authority figures, such as coaches.
RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 9:57 am : link
In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
with their top pick?


I wouldn't draft Murray #1.

However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.
If there were a trade for the sixth pick  
jeff57 : 1/10/2019 10:00 am : link
We should get a 3 back. After all, Rosen was taken 10th.
RE: RE: Question: If Rosen wasn’t deemed a franchise-worthy guy by  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 10:00 am : link
In comment 14256541 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256529 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Shurmur last year, what in Rosen’s play this past season, would change Shurmur’s and DG’s mind? No matter how great SB was considered to be at the time, there’s little question in this fan’s mind, if Rosen was franchise-worthy to PS and DG, they would have run to tge podium and passed on SB, imv..



I disagree. The selection of Barkley was NOT an indictment of poor QB grades. They simply had Barkley had that much higher and didn't want to pass on a prospect that had the second ever perfect grade throughout Gettlemen's long career.


Except, if you have a franchise QB you project to lead you for more than a decade, who would a HC take. I am thrilled we took SB. That said, if Eli or Luck or Peyton were available and the choice was between them or Barry Sanders, who would a HC take? To me, it’s a slam dunk franchise QB
RE: RE: RE: I’d trade #6 pick  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 10:01 am : link
In comment 14256525 Sy'56 said:
Quote:


Let's be honest. How many ARI games did you watch in full?


That is a huge problem around here. If it’s not on the ESPN highlight reel or Redzone, the likelihood of watching even a few minutes of the game, let alone a full game, is probably < 3%.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It doesn't  
Jarvis : 1/10/2019 10:02 am : link
In comment 14256532 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14256514 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14256483 JonC said:


Quote:



Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.



You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?

On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.



It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.


This is from an Arizona sun-sentinel article. Maybe he has matured a bit. Or been humbled

“I also told him I thought the way he handled the end of the season, the toughness and kind of keeping his mouth shut, was what you’re looking for. We can build off that.”

Rosen could have complained about a lot of things during his rookie season – from the lack of any innovation involving the playcalling, having to play behind a tattered and torn offensive line and not having enough talent among his wide receivers and tight ends.

Rosen bit his tongue and only praised the players with which he had to work. Now, however, it’s up to Cardinals President Michael Bidwill, General Manager Steve Keim and Kingsbury to rebuild the roster through their $70 million in available salary-cap space and the draft, where they’ll be picking first in every round.
Rosen/Kingsbury article - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It doesn't  
section125 : 1/10/2019 10:03 am : link
In comment 14256544 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14256532 JonC said:

........

And, how they view and treat authority figures, such as coaches.


That is a huge list. Likely he fits in one or two of those categories?
So it may be a big concern or just a concern that would drop him a peg or two? It is also a matter of just what the FO is willing to deal with and if they feel he can overcome it?

Thanks
RE: RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 10:04 am : link
In comment 14256545 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


with their top pick?



I wouldn't draft Murray #1.

However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.


But Sy, if in fact he’s 5’9”, why would a team draft a guy like that high? You’ve got 10’ tall DL and no matter how mobile they are(which coukd be an injury waiting to happen), how does a QB that small function?
At the end of the season...  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 10:07 am : link
I thought there was a nice bond being formed between Rosen and fellow rookie Kirk.

Sy may have said this earlier, but let me say this again - the Cards oline made our oline look like the Dallas oline of 1993. It was beyond incapable. Many of them should have been arrested for attempted manslaughter they way treated the QB position...
RE: RE: RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 10:07 am : link
In comment 14256555 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256545 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


with their top pick?



I wouldn't draft Murray #1.

However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.



But Sy, if in fact he’s 5’9”, why would a team draft a guy like that high? You’ve got 10’ tall DL and no matter how mobile they are(which coukd be an injury waiting to happen), how does a QB that small function?


I don't disagree with you. That is a big part of my grade on him.

But there are enough offensive minds out there that are convinced they cam scheme around it. Shotgun / move him around / RPO
And he may actually be 5'8  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 10:08 am : link
.
Doug Flutie..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2019 10:09 am : link
just stood on a soapbox and waved!!

RE: RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
Rjanyg : 1/10/2019 10:11 am : link
In comment 14256545 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


with their top pick?



I wouldn't draft Murray #1.

However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.


If this happens it might be a draft day trade. Arizona selects Bosa 1st overall and calls the Giants after pick 5 is selected, offering Rosen and their 3rd round pick for the Giants 1st round pick. I could see this.
I am not giving up  
Doomster : 1/10/2019 10:14 am : link
a 6th for a guy who was drafted 10th......

Az would have to throw something more into the pot.....

I like him...he has a Marino attitude...

However, I doubt that Az will take a qb...
It's definitely worth discussing  
ghost718 : 1/10/2019 10:18 am : link
I'd rather trade Beckham and a pick,keep 6,and draft a defensive player.
A year ago  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 10:19 am : link
If you told me that we could have Barkley and Rosen with the #2 pick and the 2019 top 10 pick I would have signed up for that without a 2nd thought.
RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
UConn4523 : 1/10/2019 10:21 am : link
In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
with their top pick?


Russell Wilson dropped due to his size, and since then a guy not much larger went #1 overall. I wouldn't take Murray #1 overall, but NFL trends don't hold as much weight as they used to IMO.
Teams don't give up on a QB after one year  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/10/2019 10:23 am : link
unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.
I wonder if the Giants view Rosen as worth the #6 pick  
Heisenberg : 1/10/2019 10:23 am : link
What a really interesting scenario.
RE: I am not giving up  
section125 : 1/10/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14256567 Doomster said:
Quote:
a 6th for a guy who was drafted 10th......

Az would have to throw something more into the pot.....

I like him...he has a Marino attitude...

However, I doubt that Az will take a qb...


The two picks are not linear. Rosen this year would be the top QB in the draft. That still may not make him the 6th best player in the draft, but all things being equal, the position adds to the pick.

However if AZ said Rosen and their 3rd rnder for our #6 - DG should sprint to the podium.
It would set the stage for an awesome, 2004-like trade  
jcn56 : 1/10/2019 10:25 am : link
starting with some rumors that the Giants and Cards have discussed trading Rosen, down to 'the Giants are on the clock with the 6th overall pick', selecting Murray then trading him to Arizona for picks.

I know it wouldn't work like that, but it if did, how ironic would it be?
for Rosen, not picks damnit  
jcn56 : 1/10/2019 10:26 am : link
where's my coffee
RE: RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
section125 : 1/10/2019 10:27 am : link
In comment 14256572 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


with their top pick?



Russell Wilson dropped due to his size, and since then a guy not much larger went #1 overall. I wouldn't take Murray #1 overall, but NFL trends don't hold as much weight as they used to IMO.


5'9 190lb vs 6'1"+ and 220 is significantly bigger. That is over 4" and almost 30 lbs....
From a fan's perspective...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2019 10:27 am : link
this is how I view it:

Quote:
I wonder if the Giants view Rosen as worth the #6 pick
Heisenberg : 10:23 am : link : reply
What a really interesting scenario.


Just a really interesting scenario. It provides an avenue to getting the young, cost controlled QB that teams crave. But the second part of that is if he's worth it.

That's above all our pay grades, but it sure does make for something interesting to discuss.
The Cards...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/10/2019 10:28 am : link
Make us look like a fine tuned machine.
The first thing I thought of when I saw this  
Chris684 : 1/10/2019 10:31 am : link
Was all of the dopes who were lamenting the fact that the Giants were never going to have another opportunity to obtain a franchise QB and they were destined for QB hell.

Well, here we are not even a year later and things are shaping up that they will have lots of interesting options both this year and next.
RE: Teams don't give up on a QB after one year  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 10:31 am : link
In comment 14256584 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.

The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.

Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.

SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?

If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc
Mixed views of where he would be draft.  
GFAN52 : 1/10/2019 10:33 am : link
Quote:
Last month, an NFL general manager told ESPN's Adam Schefter: "I really believe he's a first-round pick, a late first, I really do."
RE: From a fan's perspective...  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 10:34 am : link
In comment 14256596 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this is how I view it:



Quote:


I wonder if the Giants view Rosen as worth the #6 pick
Heisenberg : 10:23 am : link : reply
What a really interesting scenario.



Just a really interesting scenario. It provides an avenue to getting the young, cost controlled QB that teams crave. But the second part of that is if he's worth it.

That's above all our pay grades, but it sure does make for something interesting to discuss.

It certainly does and it will be far better than the daily Eli, Haskins, etc debates.
RE: It would set the stage for an awesome, 2004-like trade  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 10:34 am : link
In comment 14256590 jcn56 said:
Quote:
starting with some rumors that the Giants and Cards have discussed trading Rosen, down to 'the Giants are on the clock with the 6th overall pick', selecting Murray then trading him to Arizona for picks.

I know it wouldn't work like that, but it if did, how ironic would it be?


You deserve the coffee. I kinda like irony
I agree that giving up the 6th pick alone is a non-starter - 3 ideas  
Eric on Li : 1/10/2019 10:35 am : link
1. they can have our 6th pick, we get Rosen, but we also get back their 2nd (33rd overall I believe). We'd likely get a top 20 guy on our board plus Rosen.

2. they can have our first next year for Rosen straight up.

3. if we want to get crazy, they can have OBJ but in addition to Rosen we get their 1st next year and their 2nd this year, we send back next year's 2nd or 3rd to them. That's pretty close to what the Bears gave up for Mack if you count Rosen as a 1st round pick.
RE: Let Murray  
JCin332 : 1/10/2019 10:36 am : link
In comment 14256474 dep026 said:
Quote:
go number 1.
Let someone take Haskins before us.

Bosa
Q. Williams
Josh Allen
Jonah Williams/Clein Ferrell/Devin White

Giants become very happy.


Bingo...perfect scenario...
I love the idea of your  
Dnew15 : 1/10/2019 10:36 am : link
young franchise QB being put in the fold with young stars like SB - I don't love the fact that if Rosen takes off with the Giants, that you have to pay them at the same time. That cap situation is tough.
curious, what from this year are you Josh Rosen fans in love with?  
GMAN4LIFE : 1/10/2019 10:37 am : link
i just want to know what you are seeing that i am not
RE: Attitude  
Johnny5 : 1/10/2019 10:38 am : link
In comment 14256440 Gruber said:
Quote:
Wasn't Rosen the rookie QB who shouted at/lost his temper with his OL during pre-season practice? I keept an eye on the newly drafted QB's, and there definitely was an incident preseason which raised eyebrows about attitude. Definitely wasn't Darnold or Jackson, pretty sure it wasn't Baker Mayfield, which leaves the two Joshes.

If that's true I can't knock him for that. That OL truly was worse than what we trotted out this past season... extremely hard to believe but true. I'd have been yelling at that OL too.
RE: RE: Teams don't give up on a QB after one year  
lax counsel : 1/10/2019 10:41 am : link
In comment 14256607 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14256584 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:


Quote:


unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.


The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.

Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.

SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?

If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc


Fair points. My thought on Tua/Herbert/Fromm is that it is going to likely cost the Giants multiple picks to acquire one, as I do not think they will be drafting top 10 next year. So, is Rosen worth one pick, whereas Tua/Herbert/Fromm are worth 2 plus picks?
RE: curious, what from this year are you Josh Rosen fans in love with?  
Johnny5 : 1/10/2019 10:43 am : link
In comment 14256623 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
i just want to know what you are seeing that i am not

He was getting pounded behind that OL but wow can he sling the ball. That was still pretty evident. They had no blocking at all, he was getting hammered and I'm pretty sure they were dead last in rushing. The fact that he didn't get hurt in that scenario says something in my mind because the biggest knock on him was his propensity towards injury (mainly concussions). Arizona was a complete trainwreck.
I'm not..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2019 10:44 am : link
a Josh Rosen fan, but the inconsistencies people have at viewing rookie QB's is quite entertaining:

Quote:
curious, what from this year are you Josh Rosen fans in love with?
GMAN4LIFE : 10:37 am : link : reply
i just want to know what you are seeing that i am not


You can look back at either Manning, Jared Goff, Darnold, Rosen, Allen, Jackson and see rookies who struggle mightily. Terrible statistics and/or W-L records.

All I say is this - if you have people who saw glimpses of greatness in Darnold, Allen and Jackson and can't say the same for Rosen, they either are really ignorant from a football aspect or they are completely biased.

All those QB's made terrible throws and had some ridiculous turnovers. All of them, with the possible exception of Jackson, had some amazing throws that showcased arm strength, accuracy and decision-making.

Saying any of them are failures or successes at this point should just have a big poster of Jared Goff giving a Johnny Cash-like middle finger over their computer.
RE: RE: Teams don't give up on a QB after one year  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 10:44 am : link
In comment 14256607 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14256584 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:


Quote:


unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.


The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.

Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.

SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?

If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc


Teams want mobile QBs to help out the OL so, yes, it would help Arizona. What people seem to only want to see is Josh Allen running for TDs or Mahomes making plays outside the pocket. What fans choose to ignore are that these mobile QBs take unnecessary hits and Wilson is really the exception and not the rule. These mobile QB more often than not get injured buying time or using their legs like Wentz, RGIII, Mariota, Tannehill, Rodgers, Big Ben, Darnold, Allen, and the list goes on. It is a cool fad to talk about but games are won from making plays in the pocket. Just my two cents.
I would love a trade for Josh Rosen  
Dave in PA : 1/10/2019 10:45 am : link
Forget the 2018 AZ Cardinals. That was a disaster and it had nothing to do with Rosen. No way it happens, but if we start 2019 wth Rosen and Barkley that is masterful
I would trade the 2019 second round pick for Rosen  
Oscar : 1/10/2019 10:47 am : link
Of course DG and Shurmur need to watch tape and see enough to work with, but it could be a good opportunity to find a long term solution for pennies on the dollar.
RE: RE: curious, what from this year are you Josh Rosen fans in love with?  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 10:48 am : link
In comment 14256636 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256623 GMAN4LIFE said:


Quote:


i just want to know what you are seeing that i am not


He was getting pounded behind that OL but wow can he sling the ball. That was still pretty evident. They had no blocking at all, he was getting hammered and I'm pretty sure they were dead last in rushing. The fact that he didn't get hurt in that scenario says something in my mind because the biggest knock on him was his propensity towards injury (mainly concussions). Arizona was a complete trainwreck.


And he stood tall in the pocket. The kid has balls.
Folks don't seem to understand that this is a unique situation  
ZogZerg : 1/10/2019 10:48 am : link
You have a new coach for team that absolutely loves a QB entering the draft. If he tells management that he is confident he can win with this guy, etc. and really sells it, this could happen. It is a hole new coaching staff - the QB will need to learn a new Offense. So, not a big change to move on from a 1 year guy to a rookie that you think is it.

They can draft a the best player at #1 and their franchise QB at #6.
I don't see the Cardinals dumping Rosen for Murray  
GFAN52 : 1/10/2019 10:48 am : link
.
RE: I agree that giving up the 6th pick alone is a non-starter - 3 ideas  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 10:49 am : link
In comment 14256619 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
1. they can have our 6th pick, we get Rosen, but we also get back their 2nd (33rd overall I believe). We'd likely get a top 20 guy on our board plus Rosen.

2. they can have our first next year for Rosen straight up.

3. if we want to get crazy, they can have OBJ but in addition to Rosen we get their 1st next year and their 2nd this year, we send back next year's 2nd or 3rd to them. That's pretty close to what the Bears gave up for Mack if you count Rosen as a 1st round pick.

I think a fair offer is the Giants 1st for Rosen plus swapping of 2nd round picks. The Giants would have the first pick in round 2 which is very valuable as several teams want to trade up for a player that fell out of round 1. They could move down a few spots pick up a 3rd and then grab an OL.
What makes it not crazy is that Murray and Rosen are so different  
Heisenberg : 1/10/2019 10:49 am : link
You could definitely see where the "eye of the beholder" could value Murray and his skill set and be willing to trade Rosen to bring him in for the new head coach who loves him.

And the Giants have plenty of assets to make offers of all kinds to get Rosen. Their first this year or next and all the other picks they have in this draft. Cards have a lot of holes? So do the Giants, but they have a lot of picks too.

Lastly, Yes, Rosen was pretty bad last year in most games. But most QBs are in their first year, especially on teams that are lacking talent. If you don't think so, go look up Eli's first year.

It's not crazy. For me, it hinges on how real the Murray love is and if the Giants think Rosen could be the guy.
RE: RE: RE: Teams don't give up on a QB after one year  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 10:51 am : link
In comment 14256642 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256607 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 14256584 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:


Quote:


unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.


The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.

Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.

SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?

If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc



Teams want mobile QBs to help out the OL so, yes, it would help Arizona. What people seem to only want to see is Josh Allen running for TDs or Mahomes making plays outside the pocket. What fans choose to ignore are that these mobile QBs take unnecessary hits and Wilson is really the exception and not the rule. These mobile QB more often than not get injured buying time or using their legs like Wentz, RGIII, Mariota, Tannehill, Rodgers, Big Ben, Darnold, Allen, and the list goes on. It is a cool fad to talk about but games are won from making plays in the pocket. Just my two cents.


So by picking Murray, they're saying that's worth it to not build the line (or defense, depending on what they wold otherwise do with the pick)? And the equation would be more like having Murray and his mobility without a line versus Rosen with an improved line. To me, foregoing getting another top tier player raised a red flag on Rosen.
And to add to my post about making plays from the pocket  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 10:51 am : link
Is that, if I am not mistaken, Rosen ran better than Darnold at the combine and Darnold is considered a guy that makes plays with his legs. So, that tells me that Rosen chooses to stand tall in the pocket and goes through his reads. I think his athleticism is untapped and would work very well in Shurmur's scheme of moving the pocket around like he did many times with Eli this year.
RE: I don't see the Cardinals dumping Rosen for Murrays  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 10:52 am : link
In comment 14256655 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
.

I thought the same thing after Josh McDaniels arrived in Denver. He had a very talented young QB in Cutler but he traded him as soon as he arrived.
Cutler was also more established. If Kingbury loves Murray enough he could make a change. This was obviously discussed with ownership during the interview process.
Darnold  
AcidTest : 1/10/2019 10:53 am : link
was the only QB I wanted if we didn't take Barkley. But Rosen was #2. Mayfield had too many off the field concerns, and Allen had accuracy issues. Rosen's mechanics are beautiful. And as others noted, he played behind an atrocious OL in Arizona. His rookie year was basically a waste.

I agree that the Giants taking Barkley isn't necessarily an indictment of the other QBs. Barkley was only the second player who ever earned a perfect grade from Gettleman. The problem is that Shurmur has repeatedly said he prefers a mobile QB, and that may not be Rosen. My guess is that and the high cost of the #6 pick would be preclusive. But I admit I'd be tempted (70/30) to make that trade.
RE: I would love a trade for Josh Rosen  
Blue21 : 1/10/2019 10:53 am : link
In comment 14256644 Dave in PA said:
Quote:
Forget the 2018 AZ Cardinals. That was a disaster and it had nothing to do with Rosen. No way it happens, but if we start 2019 wth Rosen and Barkley that is masterful


I agree. If they deem Rosen a franchise QB then they have to make this happen. How often to franchise QB's come along? We gave up a ton for Eli and took the gamble. It paid off. I'd take the gamble here too.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Teams don't give up on a QB after one year  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 10:54 am : link
In comment 14256660 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14256642 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 14256607 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 14256584 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:


Quote:


unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.


The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.

Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.

SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?

If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc



Teams want mobile QBs to help out the OL so, yes, it would help Arizona. What people seem to only want to see is Josh Allen running for TDs or Mahomes making plays outside the pocket. What fans choose to ignore are that these mobile QBs take unnecessary hits and Wilson is really the exception and not the rule. These mobile QB more often than not get injured buying time or using their legs like Wentz, RGIII, Mariota, Tannehill, Rodgers, Big Ben, Darnold, Allen, and the list goes on. It is a cool fad to talk about but games are won from making plays in the pocket. Just my two cents.



So by picking Murray, they're saying that's worth it to not build the line (or defense, depending on what they wold otherwise do with the pick)? And the equation would be more like having Murray and his mobility without a line versus Rosen with an improved line. To me, foregoing getting another top tier player raised a red flag on Rosen.


No, not at all. When did I day anything stupid like that? What that means is that you have an extra year of Murray over Rosen. It means that it is going to take time to build up the OL so they could be wasting at least 2 years of Rosen before that line is adequate. Murray can mask some of their shortcomings while they fix their OL.
I dont  
jtgiants : 1/10/2019 10:54 am : link
Like rosen at all.i wouldn't even consider this. Sorry. I said last year he was my least favorite prospect. I stand by that.
RE: And to add to my post about making plays from the pocket  
lax counsel : 1/10/2019 10:56 am : link
In comment 14256661 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Is that, if I am not mistaken, Rosen ran better than Darnold at the combine and Darnold is considered a guy that makes plays with his legs. So, that tells me that Rosen chooses to stand tall in the pocket and goes through his reads. I think his athleticism is untapped and would work very well in Shurmur's scheme of moving the pocket around like he did many times with Eli this year.


Agreed, I think Rosen is more athletic than given credit for.
Also, when we talk about sacrificing assets  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 10:57 am : link
(not even counting how Rosen compares to Haskins) is Jones or Lock or Grier.

The relevant equations are probably something like:

Jones/Lock/Grier - 2nd or a couple 4/5/or 6 round vs Rosen - 5th or 6th-best player in the draft
RE: Also, when we talk about sacrificing assets  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 11:00 am : link
In comment 14256681 Bill L said:
Quote:
(not even counting how Rosen compares to Haskins) is Jones or Lock or Grier.

The relevant equations are probably something like:

Jones/Lock/Grier - 2nd or a couple 4/5/or 6 round vs Rosen - 5th or 6th-best player in the draft

I meant margin of talent difference (not even that, just ability to be successful with the NYG) of those alternatives to Rosen.
RE: Also, when we talk about sacrificing assets  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 11:00 am : link
In comment 14256681 Bill L said:
Quote:
(not even counting how Rosen compares to Haskins) is Jones or Lock or Grier.

The relevant equations are probably something like:

Jones/Lock/Grier - 2nd or a couple 4/5/or 6 round vs Rosen - 5th or 6th-best player in the draft


Yes and no. It should be discussed but at the same time you cannot predict if those guys will be avaialble when we pick so we wouldn't be able to sit back and say we are getting Lock or Grier in the second or third so we will pass on Rosen/Haskins/Murray at 6.
RE: Also, when we talk about sacrificing assets  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14256681 Bill L said:
Quote:
(not even counting how Rosen compares to Haskins) is Jones or Lock or Grier.

The relevant equations are probably something like:

Jones/Lock/Grier - 2nd or a couple 4/5/or 6 round vs Rosen - 5th or 6th-best player in the draft


To add to this, that is like the crowd last year that said to pass on Barkley because that draft was RB rich. Well, a lot of the so called great RBs weren't so great.
5'11  
widmerseyebrow : 1/10/2019 11:05 am : link

Link - ( New Window )
RE: 5'11  
widmerseyebrow : 1/10/2019 11:05 am : link
In comment 14256694 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
Link - ( New Window )


Don't know why my title got cut off:

5'11" Khris Davis standing next to "5'11" Kyler Murray
Hmmm  
Rong5611 : 1/10/2019 11:06 am : link
I'd take Rosen, I'm not sure I'd give up the 6th pick though. We have too many holes to fill.
RE: Intriguing thought. What if, instead of our #6, we offer them OBJ  
Sonic Youth : 1/10/2019 11:07 am : link
In comment 14256318 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
for Rosen? Think they'd bite? We get to keep #6 that way and draft a DL or edge rusher.
that would be an atrocious move IMO. Why would we trade one of the best WRs in the NFL when acquiring a young QB? Makes no sense.

Trading Beckham is a bad idea in nearly any context unless you got back two 1s and a 2. Which will never happen.

OBJ is a Giant and he should be one for years to come.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It doesn't  
JonC : 1/10/2019 11:07 am : link
In comment 14256551 Jarvis said:
Quote:
In comment 14256532 JonC said:


Quote:


In comment 14256514 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14256483 JonC said:


Quote:



Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.



You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?

On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.



It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.



This is from an Arizona sun-sentinel article. Maybe he has matured a bit. Or been humbled

“I also told him I thought the way he handled the end of the season, the toughness and kind of keeping his mouth shut, was what you’re looking for. We can build off that.”

Rosen could have complained about a lot of things during his rookie season – from the lack of any innovation involving the playcalling, having to play behind a tattered and torn offensive line and not having enough talent among his wide receivers and tight ends.

Rosen bit his tongue and only praised the players with which he had to work. Now, however, it’s up to Cardinals President Michael Bidwill, General Manager Steve Keim and Kingsbury to rebuild the roster through their $70 million in available salary-cap space and the draft, where they’ll be picking first in every round. Rosen/Kingsbury article - ( New Window )


It's entirely possible, just something the Giants would have to be damned sure of before pulling the trigger.
RE: Hmmm  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 11:10 am : link
In comment 14256698 Rong5611 said:
Quote:
I'd take Rosen, I'm not sure I'd give up the 6th pick though. We have too many holes to fill.


Not sure what that means. So, if we stayed put and drafted Josh Allen from Kentucky you would say the same thing. The only way this makes sense is if you are saying we tradd down to acquire more picks.
RE: #6?  
djstat : 1/10/2019 11:11 am : link
In comment 14256297 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
My goodness, he was awful this season. I like the idea, but I can't trade that pick for him.
Was a rookie on an awful team
Won’t matter who we trade for  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 11:12 am : link
if we don’t fix the OL, not to mention parts of the D
RE: RE: Also, when we talk about sacrificing assets  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 11:12 am : link
In comment 14256687 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256681 Bill L said:


Quote:


(not even counting how Rosen compares to Haskins) is Jones or Lock or Grier.

The relevant equations are probably something like:

Jones/Lock/Grier - 2nd or a couple 4/5/or 6 round vs Rosen - 5th or 6th-best player in the draft



Yes and no. It should be discussed but at the same time you cannot predict if those guys will be avaialble when we pick so we wouldn't be able to sit back and say we are getting Lock or Grier in the second or third so we will pass on Rosen/Haskins/Murray at 6.


I wasn't clear. The second part of the equation was subtracting the lower pick that would (might) be needed to move up to get whichever player. So, factor in the difference between the #6 pick in the draft versus the additional 4th or 5th rounder needed to move up from the 2nd round pick.
RE: RE: 5'11  
Strip-Sack : 1/10/2019 11:15 am : link
In comment 14256695 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
In comment 14256694 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


Link - ( New Window )

Ha...maybe but that pic is taken from a low perspective and shows absolutely nothing.



Don't know why my title got cut off:

5'11" Khris Davis standing next to "5'11" Kyler Murray
RE: Won’t matter who we trade for  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 11:15 am : link
In comment 14256716 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
if we don’t fix the OL, not to mention parts of the D


When did you turn intk that guy? Come on, you are better than that. No kidding we have a million things to fix. Does that mean we should not go after a potential franchise QB? The first round pick will NEVER fix all issues.
Sign me up  
Gmen88 : 1/10/2019 11:22 am : link
I'd trade the #6 for Rosen in a heartbeat.
Three  
AcidTest : 1/10/2019 11:30 am : link
other points:

(1) Rosen is probably more likely to maximize the talents of Beckham and Barkley, certainly after 2019, than Lauletta or any QB drafted this year or in 2020. Rosen has already been in the league a year, and was highly rated coming out of college. We just signed Beckham to a $95M contract, and used the #2 pick on Barkley.

(2) A straight trade of Rosen for the #6 pick means we aren't "mortgaging the future" like the Rams and Eagles did for Goff and Wentz.

(3) Lauletta is immediately expendable if we trade for Rosen. in a weak QB class, he'd probably still fetch a day three pick.

Again, I'm not saying I'd make the trade, but it is intriguing.
Sorry but hard pass for the #6 pick  
Ssanders9816 : 1/10/2019 11:31 am : link
Cardinals have no leverage here
If we do get Rosen  
SHO'NUFF : 1/10/2019 11:33 am : link
do we cut Eli?
The only example I can think of is Favre  
twostepgiants : 1/10/2019 11:34 am : link
The Falcons take Favre at top of round 2 in 1991. He struggled with work ethic, attitude & drinking there. In his playing time, he took 4 snaps. 2 were intercepted and one was returned for a TD and a he took a sack. He didn’t complete a pass. The HC Jerry Glanville did not want him.

He was then traded to Green Bay for the 16th pick in the 1st round.
RE: If we do get Rosen  
section125 : 1/10/2019 11:35 am : link
In comment 14256744 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
do we cut Eli?


Yes. They save either $17 mill or $11 mill if after the roster bonus kicks in.
RE: RE: If we do get Rosen  
AcidTest : 1/10/2019 11:38 am : link
In comment 14256748 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256744 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


do we cut Eli?



Yes. They save either $17 mill or $11 mill if after the roster bonus kicks in.


Agreed. The Giants would presumably cut Eli if they made this trade. The irony is that the trade might therefore save Tanney's job since he'd be the most likely #2 QB.
RE: Sorry but hard pass for the #6 pick  
section125 : 1/10/2019 11:40 am : link
In comment 14256742 Ssanders9816 said:
Quote:
Cardinals have no leverage here


No, but there are a handful of teams looking for a low cost QB with promise.
As listed above Wash, Jax, Denver, New Orleans, New England, etc.

There are enough teams with needs that they could not wait around to see if the price drops, unless they are willing to live without him - which is a distinct possibility.
RE: If we do get Rosen  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 11:40 am : link
In comment 14256744 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
do we cut Eli?


Doubt it. His 5 million dollar roster bonus would have been paid out already. At that point we hold onto him imo.
RE: RE: If we do get Rosen  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 11:41 am : link
In comment 14256748 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256744 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


do we cut Eli?



Yes. They save either $17 mill or $11 mill if after the roster bonus kicks in.


If that's the case, it likely would not be a draft day (2004 redux) trade, seeing as they have a shorter window to decide on whether or not to keep Eli. Of course, if they are thinking Haskins (or even someone else) they may have already made that decision anyway.
I'm assuming this would only get done during the draft  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 11:41 am : link
.
RE: RE: If we do get Rosen  
section125 : 1/10/2019 11:42 am : link
In comment 14256756 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256744 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


do we cut Eli?



Doubt it. His 5 million dollar roster bonus would have been paid out already. At that point we hold onto him imo.


They would still save about $11 mill even after the roster bonus is paid.
RE: RE: Let Murray  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 11:44 am : link
In comment 14256620 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256474 dep026 said:


Quote:


go number 1.
Let someone take Haskins before us.

Bosa
Q. Williams
Josh Allen
Jonah Williams/Clein Ferrell/Devin White

Giants become very happy.



Bingo...perfect scenario...


I would like this a lot.But then, the scenario almost becomes Barkley - like....is getting Bosa or Allen (etc) worth passing on Rosen.
and recall the choice they made with Barkley  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 11:44 am : link
.
Murray might be first  
LS : 1/10/2019 11:46 am : link
pick. Might be. I would guess he goes to Arizona.....with the first pick in the second round.
Great news if this happens.  
Dave in Hoboken : 1/10/2019 11:47 am : link
.
RE: RE: RE: If we do get Rosen  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 11:48 am : link
In comment 14256761 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256756 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 14256744 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


do we cut Eli?



Doubt it. His 5 million dollar roster bonus would have been paid out already. At that point we hold onto him imo.



They would still save about $11 mill even after the roster bonus is paid.


One, I don't just like handing someone a starting position. I'd want Rosen to take it from him. Two, I dont think Arizona uses the number one overall pick on Murray and pass on Bosa. So, the way I see this going down would be to take Bosa number 1 and wait to see if Murray is there at 6 before pulling the trigger. That means most of FA is over so what good is the extra 11 mil at that point? If there are guys that are available that can make our team better then awesoms and the chances of Eli getting cut are more likely. With that said, those players that are left at that point are the bargain players. Not much to do with that money. So, imo, you let Eli battle it out with Rosen and let the best man win. Eli has always helped out other QBs on the roster so you don't have to look at him as a distraction. Plus, look at Philly. The passed on a second for Foles last offseason and it paid off. No reason not to have 2 QBs on your roster.
People should keep in mind  
AcesUp : 1/10/2019 11:49 am : link
That it's not a rumor and it's speculation, there's a difference. Kingsbury was on record saying he'd take Murray #1 overall, the cards have the #1 pick and he's seen as an innovative outside the box offensive guru.

Not complaining, it's fun speculation in January. If this were on the table the Giants would be dumb not to pursue it. As has been said, you can't read into Rosen's rookie year, he was going through growing pains in an impossible situation. The cards would be eating his signing bonus, he'd be dirt cheap on our cap the next 3 years (4-6M each year). That mitigates your risk in terms of roster construction, even if he ends up being Bortles bad, Bortles bad at a 5M cap hit is something you can work with. Most importantly, there's the upside - he's still more likely to be a franchise QB than any other option in the draft or FA this year.

What it really boils down to is that the Giants are a little more desperate at QB than some realize and don't have a ton of obvious options. They'll probably need to get aggressive and creative if they plan on addressing the position in any serious capacity this year.
RE: I'm assuming this would only get done during the draft  
Rjanyg : 1/10/2019 11:52 am : link
In comment 14256758 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
.


Agree. AZ picks Bosa, waits to see if Murray is still on the board after the 5th pick, calls NYG.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If we do get Rosen  
section125 : 1/10/2019 11:54 am : link
In comment 14256768 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:

One, I don't just like handing someone a starting position. I'd want Rosen to take it from him. Two, I dont think Arizona uses the number one overall pick on Murray and pass on Bosa. So, the way I see this going down would be to take Bosa number 1 and wait to see if Murray is there at 6 before pulling the trigger. That means most of FA is over so what good is the extra 11 mil at that point? If there are guys that are available that can make our team better then awesoms and the chances of Eli getting cut are more likely. With that said, those players that are left at that point are the bargain players. Not much to do with that money. So, imo, you let Eli battle it out with Rosen and let the best man win. Eli has always helped out other QBs on the roster so you don't have to look at him as a distraction. Plus, look at Philly. The passed on a second for Foles last offseason and it paid off. No reason not to have 2 QBs on your roster.


Not an unfounded point. But $11 mill is $11 mill, whether used this year or next year. Remember there is carryover and there are also trades where a proven vet can be traded for during camp.

Philly passed because Wentz had an ACL and no one knows how soon they heal(usually a year). They had to keep Foles to offset Wentz missing significant time.
Rosen was drafted #10 last year  
Go Terps : 1/10/2019 11:54 am : link
And he's already played a year of his rookie contract. I think you could make the case that we would offer our second rounder, but the first rounder is too high a price.
Rosen and a pick for Giants #6?  
ij_reilly : 1/10/2019 11:57 am : link
I'm not wild about a straight-up swap, Rosen for #6.

I would want the Cardinals to sweeten the pot.

What kind of pick might the Cardinals throw in?

Their 3rd round this year would be okay I suppose.

If the Cardinals don't want to include a 2019 pick, I would want their 2nd round pick in 2020.


I don't know much about Murry  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/10/2019 11:57 am : link
But even though I don't read too much into QB measurables, I feel like he would need to be exceptional to be able to overcome his height. Baker was and had a nice long career of showing excellence.
RE: People should keep in mind  
Eman11 : 1/10/2019 11:58 am : link
In comment 14256770 AcesUp said:
Quote:
That it's not a rumor and it's speculation, there's a difference. Kingsbury was on record saying he'd take Murray #1 overall, the cards have the #1 pick and he's seen as an innovative outside the box offensive guru.

Not complaining, it's fun speculation in January. If this were on the table the Giants would be dumb not to pursue it. As has been said, you can't read into Rosen's rookie year, he was going through growing pains in an impossible situation. The cards would be eating his signing bonus, he'd be dirt cheap on our cap the next 3 years (4-6M each year). That mitigates your risk in terms of roster construction, even if he ends up being Bortles bad, Bortles bad at a 5M cap hit is something you can work with. Most importantly, there's the upside - he's still more likely to be a franchise QB than any other option in the draft or FA this year.

What it really boils down to is that the Giants are a little more desperate at QB than some realize and don't have a ton of obvious options. They'll probably need to get aggressive and creative if they plan on addressing the position in any serious capacity this year.


Good points.

One thing I think is a bonus is the Giants have already done all their work on Rosen last year. Who knows what they thought of him? If they liked him, I could see them going after him but if they were a hard pass, I'm sure they'd still be.

Either way they shouldn't have to spend much time if any on evaluating the player and can still spend that time evaluating their own and guys entering this upcoming draft.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If we do get Rosen  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 11:59 am : link
In comment 14256775 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256768 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:



One, I don't just like handing someone a starting position. I'd want Rosen to take it from him. Two, I dont think Arizona uses the number one overall pick on Murray and pass on Bosa. So, the way I see this going down would be to take Bosa number 1 and wait to see if Murray is there at 6 before pulling the trigger. That means most of FA is over so what good is the extra 11 mil at that point? If there are guys that are available that can make our team better then awesoms and the chances of Eli getting cut are more likely. With that said, those players that are left at that point are the bargain players. Not much to do with that money. So, imo, you let Eli battle it out with Rosen and let the best man win. Eli has always helped out other QBs on the roster so you don't have to look at him as a distraction. Plus, look at Philly. The passed on a second for Foles last offseason and it paid off. No reason not to have 2 QBs on your roster.



Not an unfounded point. But $11 mill is $11 mill, whether used this year or next year. Remember there is carryover and there are also trades where a proven vet can be traded for during camp.

Philly passed because Wentz had an ACL and no one knows how soon they heal(usually a year). They had to keep Foles to offset Wentz missing significant time.


That is partly true. From my understanding Philly was shopping him and wanted a first. If they got a first then I think he would have been dealt. But Wentz's injury definitely played a big factor.
I would disagree with the idea that the Cardinals  
Mike from Ohio : 1/10/2019 12:01 pm : link
would not make that trade until the draft. If they take Murray with the #1 pick, Rosen's value drops off a cliff as teams know that they have to unload him. He is cost controlled, but you can't pay that kind of money to a backup with little experience. It will also be difficult to keep him as the offense will undoubtedly be altered significantly to fit Murray's strengths with read options, RPOs, etc. If Murray got hurt or flamed out, you can't plug Rosen back in and expect him to succeed.

If the Cardinals call next week and offer Rosen for the #6 pick I would be listening if I was the Giants. If the Cardinals called on draft day after selecting Murray #1 I am starting with either this year's second round pick or possibly next year's #1.
RE: I would disagree with the idea that the Cardinals  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 12:02 pm : link
In comment 14256788 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
would not make that trade until the draft. If they take Murray with the #1 pick, Rosen's value drops off a cliff as teams know that they have to unload him. He is cost controlled, but you can't pay that kind of money to a backup with little experience. It will also be difficult to keep him as the offense will undoubtedly be altered significantly to fit Murray's strengths with read options, RPOs, etc. If Murray got hurt or flamed out, you can't plug Rosen back in and expect him to succeed.

If the Cardinals call next week and offer Rosen for the #6 pick I would be listening if I was the Giants. If the Cardinals called on draft day after selecting Murray #1 I am starting with either this year's second round pick or possibly next year's #1.


Agree with you if they take Murray 1st. My point is they will not pass on Bosa and have a deal in place with us prior to the draft that if Murray is available at 6 then we make the trade. If not then they keep Rosen.
RE: People should keep in mind  
ron mexico : 1/10/2019 12:05 pm : link
In comment 14256770 AcesUp said:
Quote:
That it's not a rumor and it's speculation, there's a difference. Kingsbury was on record saying he'd take Murray #1 overall, the cards have the #1 pick and he's seen as an innovative outside the box offensive guru.

Not complaining, it's fun speculation in January. If this were on the table the Giants would be dumb not to pursue it. As has been said, you can't read into Rosen's rookie year, he was going through growing pains in an impossible situation. The cards would be eating his signing bonus, he'd be dirt cheap on our cap the next 3 years (4-6M each year). That mitigates your risk in terms of roster construction, even if he ends up being Bortles bad, Bortles bad at a 5M cap hit is something you can work with. Most importantly, there's the upside - he's still more likely to be a franchise QB than any other option in the draft or FA this year.

What it really boils down to is that the Giants are a little more desperate at QB than some realize and don't have a ton of obvious options. They'll probably need to get aggressive and creative if they plan on addressing the position in any serious capacity this year.


if we traded for him, his cap hit would actually be less than that. This is what I see
2019 - 1.3m
2020 - 2.1m
2021 - 2.9m
And I don't know that picking Bosa and then trying to get him at #6  
Mike from Ohio : 1/10/2019 12:08 pm : link
works. Unloading Rosen and bringing in Murray is a complete shift in the way your offense is built. You don't get cute getting the single most important piece of that. You take Murray at #1 and then you get the best defensive player available at #6.

If someone jumps up and grabs Murray between #2 and #5, what options are left? Abandon your entire offensive scheme and stick with Rosen? Hardly worth the risk for the upgrade from who they would get at #6 to Bosa.
RE: And I don't know that picking Bosa and then trying to get him at #6  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 12:11 pm : link
In comment 14256801 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
works. Unloading Rosen and bringing in Murray is a complete shift in the way your offense is built. You don't get cute getting the single most important piece of that. You take Murray at #1 and then you get the best defensive player available at #6.

If someone jumps up and grabs Murray between #2 and #5, what options are left? Abandon your entire offensive scheme and stick with Rosen? Hardly worth the risk for the upgrade from who they would get at #6 to Bosa.


He took the job and Arizona hired him based on Rosen as his QB. Murray didn't declare until after he was hired. So, I am sure that Rosen fits what he can do otherwisd he wouldn't have been hired or taken the job. But now that Murray is available that could change things.
Rosen was the 10th pick - probably because of his concussion history  
Ira : 1/10/2019 12:11 pm : link
and didn't exactly light it up this season. The 6th pick is high - if we want him at all. Now if Arizona is willing to throw in their 2nd round pick, that would make it more interesting.
This is still a real long shot.  
Mr. Bungle : 1/10/2019 12:12 pm : link
But I find it personally fascinating, because my position last April was to use the #2 overall on either Barkley or Rosen. I like those two players the most and ended up about 60/40 in favor of Barkley.

To get them both somehow would really be something.
RE: Rosen was drafted #10 last year  
widmerseyebrow : 1/10/2019 12:13 pm : link
In comment 14256777 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And he's already played a year of his rookie contract. I think you could make the case that we would offer our second rounder, but the first rounder is too high a price.


Completely agree. He was worth the #10 pick last year. His value has only gone down since then so #6 this year is entirely too much. Important to remember that if they draft Murray #1, Arizona's bargaining power only goes down as well.
RE: Rosen was drafted #10 last year  
bubba0825 : 1/10/2019 12:14 pm : link
In comment 14256777 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And he's already played a year of his rookie contract. I think you could make the case that we would offer our second rounder, but the first rounder is too high a price.


This, losing a year of control on a qb is a big deal. He didn’t light up the world either, even with an awful team
RE: This is still a real long shot.  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 12:14 pm : link
In comment 14256809 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
But I find it personally fascinating, because my position last April was to use the #2 overall on either Barkley or Rosen. I like those two players the most and ended up about 60/40 in favor of Barkley.

To get them both somehow would really be something.


Agree with you. I was basically in the same boat as you. I was probably higher on Barkley but Rosen was right there as was Chubb.
Rosen minus 1 year of rookie contract for a 2nd rounder  
widmerseyebrow : 1/10/2019 12:15 pm : link
is pretty intriguing.
RE: RE: People should keep in mind  
AcesUp : 1/10/2019 12:16 pm : link
In comment 14256795 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14256770 AcesUp said:


Quote:


That it's not a rumor and it's speculation, there's a difference. Kingsbury was on record saying he'd take Murray #1 overall, the cards have the #1 pick and he's seen as an innovative outside the box offensive guru.

Not complaining, it's fun speculation in January. If this were on the table the Giants would be dumb not to pursue it. As has been said, you can't read into Rosen's rookie year, he was going through growing pains in an impossible situation. The cards would be eating his signing bonus, he'd be dirt cheap on our cap the next 3 years (4-6M each year). That mitigates your risk in terms of roster construction, even if he ends up being Bortles bad, Bortles bad at a 5M cap hit is something you can work with. Most importantly, there's the upside - he's still more likely to be a franchise QB than any other option in the draft or FA this year.

What it really boils down to is that the Giants are a little more desperate at QB than some realize and don't have a ton of obvious options. They'll probably need to get aggressive and creative if they plan on addressing the position in any serious capacity this year.



if we traded for him, his cap hit would actually be less than that. This is what I see
2019 - 1.3m
2020 - 2.1m
2021 - 2.9m


You're 100% right.
If the Giants want Rosen  
Dennis From Madison : 1/10/2019 12:16 pm : link
they need to do it ASAP. You don't wait until the draft. You get him into the building ASAP. You take the head start on indoctrinating him so he can be starting here week 1.

This also allows you to make a decision on Eli. You make a deal if he is willing to mentor, release him, or have time to trade him if he waves hi rights to a destination he likes.
I agree Kingsbury believes he can win with Rosen  
Mike from Ohio : 1/10/2019 12:16 pm : link
or else he would never have taken the job. What I am arguing is that I would bet he sees a much more unique and explosive offense with Murray at QB. If that is correct, why gamble being able to implement that on hoping the guy is there at #6 instead of just getting him at #1 and still getting a stud defender at #6?

Ideal situation for the cards is what you suggest, Bosa and then trade. Maybe I am just not as much of a gambler, but in my mind I would see Murray as a much more important piece to what I was trying to accomplish than the drop off from Bosa to who I would get at #6.
The concern I'd have...  
Go Terps : 1/10/2019 12:18 pm : link
We've heard on Dave Te's podcast and elsewhere that there may be issues with Rosen in Arizona. If that's the case, I don't know that putting him in our locker room is going to be good for him or the locker room.
RE: If the Giants want Rosen  
widmerseyebrow : 1/10/2019 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14256821 Dennis From Madison said:
Quote:
they need to do it ASAP. You don't wait until the draft. You get him into the building ASAP. You take the head start on indoctrinating him so he can be starting here week 1.

This also allows you to make a decision on Eli. You make a deal if he is willing to mentor, release him, or have time to trade him if he waves hi rights to a destination he likes.


Even if the Cards have their sights set on Murray at #1, they're not going to trade Rosen until they've done some diligence on Murray i.e. scouting combine and workout.
RE: This is still a real long shot.  
Johnny5 : 1/10/2019 12:19 pm : link
In comment 14256809 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
But I find it personally fascinating, because my position last April was to use the #2 overall on either Barkley or Rosen. I like those two players the most and ended up about 60/40 in favor of Barkley.

To get them both somehow would really be something.

Agreed, so intriguing. I love the Barkley pick and that was my first choice, but of the QBs I liked Mayfield/Rosen. Rosen and Barkley together would make me do backflips... lol. That said, I see this as such a LONG shot to be real... and if it is real what's the right price? I would also hope they could re-negotiate with Eli to stay on board. But I might as well ask to win Powerball... lol
Rosen trade wouldn't take us out of the running for 2021 either  
widmerseyebrow : 1/10/2019 12:27 pm : link
which is everyone's wet dream. We could evaluate year 2 and 3 of Rosen. If it's for less than a first rounder I'm on board.
I'll be interested to see Sy's grade for Haskins  
widmerseyebrow : 1/10/2019 12:30 pm : link
as a comparable vs. Rosen's grade last year.
I would trade the 6th overall for Rosen straight up....  
Britt in VA : 1/10/2019 12:44 pm : link
but I'd also try to milk a mid to late round pick out of it, as well.
Rosen  
AcidTest : 1/10/2019 12:48 pm : link
would also be a lot cheaper than the #6 pick, which means more money to spend on other players.
Not saying it would end up like this  
Matt in SGS : 1/10/2019 12:49 pm : link
but it could sound like shades of the Falcons trading Favre to the Packers for a first rounder in his second year. He fit Holmgren's system for what he wanted in a QB. Ron Wolf took over as the GM and had him as a highly rated QB in 1991 when the Falcons got him in the 2nd round.

There was this note in a story about the Favre trade from Ken Herock, who was the Atlanta GM

Quote:
Ken Herock: When I picked Favre, [Glanville] didn't want him. And I didn't care because I thought I was picking a great player. During the whole year after I drafted him, it was partly his fault -- Favre was always late for meetings, drinking a lot, didn't even know the scout plays. He couldn't even run the scout team, they were telling me. I'm not there every day, I might be there through Tuesday and then I'd go out [to scout] for a couple of days, and every time I'd come back they'd say, "Oh, you should see what your guy did today." It was always my guy. It wasn't our guy. It was my guy. And I had no defense. I couldn't come back and say, "This is what he can do."

Favre has admitted many times that he was a train wreck as a rookie. He partied, missed meetings and team functions and knew he had fallen into Glanville's doghouse. Meanwhile, Chris Miller turned things around, throwing for more than 3,000 yards and 26 touchdowns in 14 starts. The Falcons went 10-6 and won a wild-card game.


That turned out well. Of course, it could be another Steve Walsh getting traded from Dallas for the Saints first rounder and Walsh wasn't that good. (Which pissed me off because Dallas burned a supplemental first on him out of Miami).
Why would we need to offer more than the 6th pick?  
Sean : 1/10/2019 12:49 pm : link
The Cardinals drafted Rosen with their 10th pick last year & if they are shopping him, I think the 2nd round pick would be the starting point.
RE: Why would we need to offer more than the 6th pick?  
Matt in SGS : 1/10/2019 12:55 pm : link
In comment 14256885 Sean said:
Quote:
The Cardinals drafted Rosen with their 10th pick last year & if they are shopping him, I think the 2nd round pick would be the starting point.


Because I would see a team in the late first round make an offer that is better than the Giants 2nd rounder. Patriots. Saints. Hell the Redskins might do it. The Giants offering the 6th overall is going to be tough to beat if this is a possibility.
Matt  
Sean : 1/10/2019 12:57 pm : link
Good point. Completely didn’t think of teams on the back end of the first round.
It doesn't have to be a pick that we trade  
Go Terps : 1/10/2019 12:58 pm : link
It could be a player. I won't say his name because all the same posters will descend on this thread and scream. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times.
RE: It doesn't have to be a pick that we trade  
Matt in SGS : 1/10/2019 1:03 pm : link
In comment 14256897 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It could be a player. I won't say his name because all the same posters will descend on this thread and scream. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times.


It would cost the Cards more than Rosen to get him.
RE: RE: Why would we need to offer more than the 6th pick?  
figgy2989 : 1/10/2019 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14256894 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
In comment 14256885 Sean said:


Quote:


The Cardinals drafted Rosen with their 10th pick last year & if they are shopping him, I think the 2nd round pick would be the starting point.



Because I would see a team in the late first round make an offer that is better than the Giants 2nd rounder. Patriots. Saints. Hell the Redskins might do it. The Giants offering the 6th overall is going to be tough to beat if this is a possibility.


Yeah I am with Matt on this. There are definitely teams at the back end of the first who would certainly trade a 1st for Rosen.
RE: The only example I can think of is Favre  
Matt in SGS : 1/10/2019 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14256745 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
The Falcons take Favre at top of round 2 in 1991. He struggled with work ethic, attitude & drinking there. In his playing time, he took 4 snaps. 2 were intercepted and one was returned for a TD and a he took a sack. He didn’t complete a pass. The HC Jerry Glanville did not want him.

He was then traded to Green Bay for the 16th pick in the 1st round.


Sorry twostep, didn't see this in the thread when I posted. The other example was Steve Walsh going from Dallas to the Saints after Aikman held off his challenge.
I agree that if it were the 6th pick in the draft I'd  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 1:06 pm : link
want more in return. With that said, I truly doubt Arizon gives up multiple picks. They have many needs as well and cannot afford to give up all these picks. What I can see happening is swaping picks in rounds or giving is an additional 2 and 6 while we give up two 4s or something like that. That way we both have the same number of picks but the value is evened out.
RE: I agree that if it were the 6th pick in the draft I'd  
Matt in SGS : 1/10/2019 1:08 pm : link
In comment 14256908 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
want more in return. With that said, I truly doubt Arizon gives up multiple picks. They have many needs as well and cannot afford to give up all these picks. What I can see happening is swaping picks in rounds or giving is an additional 2 and 6 while we give up two 4s or something like that. That way we both have the same number of picks but the value is evened out.


This sounds reasonable, especially with all the late picks the Giants have, they can actually use them as part of some offsets and even move up, maybe get that 3rd rounder back.
RE: It doesn't have to be a pick that we trade  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14256897 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It could be a player. I won't say his name because all the same posters will descend on this thread and scream. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times.


But you did anyway and couldn't help yourself. Why would this not be sufficient:

It doesn't have to be a pick that we trade. It could be a player.
RE: RE: It doesn't have to be a pick that we trade  
Johnny5 : 1/10/2019 1:15 pm : link
In comment 14256910 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256897 Go Terps said:


Quote:


It could be a player. I won't say his name because all the same posters will descend on this thread and scream. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times.



But you did anyway and couldn't help yourself. Why would this not be sufficient:

It doesn't have to be a pick that we trade. It could be a player.

I have to admit... I lol'ed at the Beetlejuice line. That was damned funny.
GoTerps is funny  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 1:19 pm : link
He reminds me of myself. He made up his mind and is sticking to it no matter what anybody else says. It's admirable to an extent.
I change my mind on things all the time  
Go Terps : 1/10/2019 1:22 pm : link
If I'm proven wrong I have no problems admitting it.

"No matter what anybody else says" doesn't cut it.
This talk  
RinR : 1/10/2019 1:22 pm : link
would have some credence if Rosen was even considered by DG last year. All I've seen on here is that it was Barkley, Chubb and Darnold.

Josh Rosen and Saquon Barkley  
clatterbuck : 1/10/2019 1:29 pm : link
and OBJ and Evan Engram and FA/Draft to fix the O-line is the stuff that this Giants fan's dreams are made of. I think it would be a mistake for Cards essentially to swap out Rosen for Murray who seems to be a smaller version of RGIII. But if this is a real possibility, I'd urge Giants to explore it seriously.
RE: I change my mind on things all the time  
Johnny5 : 1/10/2019 1:31 pm : link
In comment 14256917 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If I'm proven wrong I have no problems admitting it.

"No matter what anybody else says" doesn't cut it.

I remember you and I getting into heated debates on Kerry Collins back in the day... Wow, you hated him! lol

Myself I admit to being someone that sticks to my guns defending certain players sometimes more than I should. Sometimes. lol
RE: This talk  
ZogZerg : 1/10/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14256919 RinR said:
Quote:
would have some credence if Rosen was even considered by DG last year. All I've seen on here is that it was Barkley, Chubb and Darnold.


How do you know he wasn't considered?
Maybe he was considered slightly below Darnold? Darnold is obviously not an option right now.
RE: Josh Rosen and Saquon Barkley  
GFAN52 : 1/10/2019 1:51 pm : link
In comment 14256924 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
and OBJ and Evan Engram and FA/Draft to fix the O-line is the stuff that this Giants fan's dreams are made of. I think it would be a mistake for Cards essentially to swap out Rosen for Murray who seems to be a smaller version of RGIII. But if this is a real possibility, I'd urge Giants to explore it seriously.


I don't think they swap out a known in Rosen for Murray regardless of how performed at the college level. He's what 5'9"?
. . . .  
jeff57 : 1/10/2019 1:59 pm : link
Checked with a high-ranking #AZCardinals source, who called this notion of trading QB Josh Rosen: “Ludicrous. Not happening.”
Link - ( New Window )
I can't  
Photoguy : 1/10/2019 2:28 pm : link
see Gettleman trading #6 with so many players that would make an immediate impact on defense.
Rosen  
Thegratefulhead : 1/10/2019 3:00 pm : link
I would trade number 6 in a heartbeat for him. I cannot imagine the Cardinals drafting Murray, but man, Barkley, OBJ, Engram and Rosen, That is an offensive core.
RE: I can't  
Mr. Bungle : 1/10/2019 4:10 pm : link
In comment 14257024 Photoguy said:
Quote:
see Gettleman trading #6 with so many players that would make an immediate impact on defense.

Really? Even if it means the QB saga is solved?
RE: RE: I can't  
Ssanders9816 : 1/10/2019 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14257251 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
In comment 14257024 Photoguy said:


Quote:


see Gettleman trading #6 with so many players that would make an immediate impact on defense.


Really? Even if it means the QB saga is solved?


That’s not the most effective way to solve it. You don’t overpay for a guy with a year off his rookie contract and character concerns.
If the Giants didn't think Rosen was worth #2 last year  
widmerseyebrow : 1/10/2019 4:13 pm : link
They wouldn't think he's worth #6 this year with one less year on his rookie deal and a poor first year (beating included).
RE: If the Giants didn't think Rosen was worth #2 last year  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 4:49 pm : link
In comment 14257254 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
They wouldn't think he's worth #6 this year with one less year on his rookie deal and a poor first year (beating included).


How come?
F++k. Rosen  
5BowlsSoon : 1/10/2019 4:52 pm : link
He stinks, is injury prone, and fragile looking. No thank you
Sy - quick question  
buddyryansux10 : 1/10/2019 5:13 pm : link
You mentioned before there were very elite pass rushers available in this draft. Is Rosen a better value than any of them as it stands now? Thanks always for your insight!
Sy - quick question  
buddyryansux10 : 1/10/2019 5:15 pm : link
You mentioned before there were very elite pass rushers available in this draft. Is Rosen a better value than any of them as it stands now? Thanks always for your insight!
R. Eisen: Two Sources Say Rosen Won't  
clatterbuck : 1/10/2019 5:25 pm : link
be traded. Fwiw.
Fwiw, R. Eisen: Two Source Say Rosen  
clatterbuck : 1/10/2019 5:26 pm : link
won't be traded.
RE: R. Eisen: Two Sources Say Rosen Won't  
Strahan91 : 1/10/2019 5:32 pm : link
In comment 14257372 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
be traded. Fwiw.

Not at all surprising. Murray hasn't even declared for the draft yet but putting that aside for a second, the GM who traded up to draft Rosen is still their GM. It would be highly unlikely for him to admit that was a mistake a year in (essentially).
RE: Sy - quick question  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 5:33 pm : link
In comment 14257351 buddyryansux10 said:
Quote:
You mentioned before there were very elite pass rushers available in this draft. Is Rosen a better value than any of them as it stands now? Thanks always for your insight!


I do think a QB is more important than a pass rusher, but even more than that, I think the Rosen grade will be higher than all of them besides Bosa.
Sy  
Go Terps : 1/10/2019 5:38 pm : link
How do you see Murray as an NFL prospect?
RE: Sy  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 5:41 pm : link
In comment 14257389 Go Terps said:
Quote:
How do you see Murray as an NFL prospect?


I have work to do on him.

Right now, I see a middle round QB prospect, not a 1st rounder.
RE: RE: I can't  
Default : 1/10/2019 5:42 pm : link
In comment 14257251 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
In comment 14257024 Photoguy said:


Quote:


see Gettleman trading #6 with so many players that would make an immediate impact on defense.


Really? Even if it means the QB saga is solved?


I dont believe that Giants brass believes there is a QB saga.
RE: If the Giants didn't think Rosen was worth #2 last year  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 6:51 pm : link
In comment 14257254 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
They wouldn't think he's worth #6 this year with one less year on his rookie deal and a poor first year (beating included).

That doesn't make sense. The Giants have said numerous times that Barkley was the best player in the draft and they felt he was a generational talent. That doesn't mean that they didn't like Darnold, Rosen, etc. it just means that they had the highest grade on Barkley. Now that Barkley has lived up to the hype and Eli is another year older their focus will be to find a QB. Having the chance to get Rosen could be too good to pass up.
Long thread above, can't read all of it at work.  
81_Great_Dane : 1/10/2019 6:59 pm : link
Rosen would be a gamble. Haskins would be a gamble -- probably an even bigger gamble, since Rosen has at least had a year in the league and there's pro tape on him.

Rosen probably isn't worth the #6 pick straight-up, and that's not a knock on him. If the Cards are trading with the Giants to get Murray, the Giants could ask for a sweetener, maybe the Giants #4 pick for the Cards' #3 pick. However the Giants aren't going to draft Murray anyway, so the Cards have the luxury of walking away and talking to the Jaguars if the Giants try to drive too hard a bargain.

Someone mentioned that if the Cards want to trade Rosen, they might want a player, not a pick. They might want OBJ. Re that: If the Cards are coming to trade for OBJ, they need to offer Rosen plus a lot more. Maybe their #2 and #3 picks, or this year's #2 and next year's #1. OBJ in exchange for Rosen, the #33 pick and the #65 pick, or the #33 and the Cards' first-rounder for 2020, isn't crazy. I still wouldn't do it, but it isn't crazy.
RE: RE: RE: I can't  
Dutch77 : 1/10/2019 7:10 pm : link
In comment 14257391 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14257251 Mr. Bungle said:


Quote:


In comment 14257024 Photoguy said:


Quote:


see Gettleman trading #6 with so many players that would make an immediate impact on defense.


Really? Even if it means the QB saga is solved?



I dont believe that Giants brass believes there is a QB saga.

If TRUE, that's part of the problem.
RE: If the Giants didn't think Rosen was worth #2 last year  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/10/2019 7:12 pm : link
In comment 14257254 widmerseyebrow said:
[quote] They wouldn't think he's worth #6 this year with one less year on his rookie deal and a poor first year (beating included). [/quotte]

That's one possibility. Another is that DG meant what he said about last year's available QBs at 2. That taking Barkley wasn't a referendum on the QBs (Darnold, Rosen, Allen). It was a statement about Barkley.

Rosen wanted to go to the Giants, at least not to the Browns.
RE: Long thread above, can't read all of it at work.  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 7:15 pm : link
In comment 14257496 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
Rosen would be a gamble. Haskins would be a gamble -- probably an even bigger gamble, since Rosen has at least had a year in the league and there's pro tape on him.

Rosen probably isn't worth the #6 pick straight-up, and that's not a knock on him. If the Cards are trading with the Giants to get Murray, the Giants could ask for a sweetener, maybe the Giants #4 pick for the Cards' #3 pick. However the Giants aren't going to draft Murray anyway, so the Cards have the luxury of walking away and talking to the Jaguars if the Giants try to drive too hard a bargain.

Someone mentioned that if the Cards want to trade Rosen, they might want a player, not a pick. They might want OBJ. Re that: If the Cards are coming to trade for OBJ, they need to offer Rosen plus a lot more. Maybe their #2 and #3 picks, or this year's #2 and next year's #1. OBJ in exchange for Rosen, the #33 pick and the #65 pick, or the #33 and the Cards' first-rounder for 2020, isn't crazy. I still wouldn't do it, but it isn't crazy.

If the Cards were offering up their 2020 1st round pick I would jump at the chance because there is a very good chance that that is going to be another top 5 pick. I doubt they would give that up with Rosen for Beckham though. I don't want to trade Beckham but if the Cards came offering that package I would jump on it.

I think a fair offer is Rosen and the Cardinals 2nd and 3rd round picks for the #6 pick and the Giants 2nd round pick. The Giants would get their QB, move up to the top spot in round 2 plus get another 3rd.
RE: I can't  
Dutch77 : 1/10/2019 7:18 pm : link
In comment 14257024 Photoguy said:
Quote:
see Gettleman trading #6 with so many players that would make an immediate impact on defense.

With 11 draft picks, why are some so adament about drafting the best defensive player with the # 6 pick(in a defensive rich draft) but last year it was all about drafting a QB or Offensive Lineman?
RE: RE: I can't  
Dan in the Springs : 1/10/2019 7:27 pm : link
In comment 14257518 Dutch77 said:
Quote:
In comment 14257024 Photoguy said:


Quote:


see Gettleman trading #6 with so many players that would make an immediate impact on defense.


With 11 draft picks, why are some so adament about drafting the best defensive player with the # 6 pick(in a defensive rich draft) but last year it was all about drafting a QB or Offensive Lineman?


Because there was a lot of love for the QB prospects in last year's draft, not so much in this year's. Same with the OL. Add in that finding an impact defender has to be high on the list of Giants needs this year, and you have what seems to be a clear solution to an admitted problem.

I'm really warming up to Haskins, and won't complain if he's drafted. I generally just put my trust in the pros anyway, since I know enough to know my limitations as a "scout" LOL.
Boyelhart (FWIW) gave Haskins a huge rating today  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/10/2019 7:32 pm : link
higher than Joey Bosa.

"Dwayne has extraordinary talent to become a franchise quarterback for the team that selects him. He has a quick release that teams are going to love and makes all the throws with the accuracy and the velocity that makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up and make you say…Oh brother! He is a pure pocket passer who has the mental talent and football IQ to adjust his style of play to any style of offense system and that is a unique talent that only a franchise potential player has the ability to do."

I know Boyelhart has his fans and detractors here. Just passing this on.
Haskins Review - ( New Window )
RE: Josh Rosen and Saquon Barkley  
FStubbs : 1/10/2019 7:34 pm : link
In comment 14256924 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
and OBJ and Evan Engram and FA/Draft to fix the O-line is the stuff that this Giants fan's dreams are made of. I think it would be a mistake for Cards essentially to swap out Rosen for Murray who seems to be a smaller version of RGIII. But if this is a real possibility, I'd urge Giants to explore it seriously.


I think it was a mistake to swap out Steve Wilks after one year for Kliff Kingsbury and be looking at McAdoofus to help run the offense. Who knows what Arizona is thinking.
RE: From a fan's perspective...  
Jimmy Googs : 1/10/2019 7:37 pm : link
In comment 14256596 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this is how I view it:



Quote:


I wonder if the Giants view Rosen as worth the #6 pick
Heisenberg : 10:23 am : link : reply
What a really interesting scenario.



Just a really interesting scenario. It provides an avenue to getting the young, cost controlled QB that teams crave. But the second part of that is if he's worth it.

That's above all our pay grades, but it sure does make for something interesting to discuss.


Agree with it all except the "above pay grades" thing as this FO and previous have made enough mistakes in both drafts, free agency and contracts to put their ultimate judgment calls in question...at least somewhat.

I liked Rosen last year and what he showed as a rookie at times, and would think this is a different/creative move to potentially fix a big problem staring this franchise in the face...
RE: Boyelhart (FWIW) gave Haskins a huge rating today  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 7:47 pm : link
In comment 14257537 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
higher than Joey Bosa.

"Dwayne has extraordinary talent to become a franchise quarterback for the team that selects him. He has a quick release that teams are going to love and makes all the throws with the accuracy and the velocity that makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up and make you say…Oh brother! He is a pure pocket passer who has the mental talent and football IQ to adjust his style of play to any style of offense system and that is a unique talent that only a franchise potential player has the ability to do."

I know Boyelhart has his fans and detractors here. Just passing this on. Haskins Review - ( New Window )


They lost me at quick release.
Regardless of how..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2019 7:49 pm : link
proficient you think the FO is, it is most definitely above our pay grades to evaluate Rosen.

You think I really trust some of the morons here to tell me how Rosen is likely to perform?
I want a mobile QB, so i'm intrigued by Murray  
SHO'NUFF : 1/10/2019 7:50 pm : link
but i'm also concerned about his frame (not so much his height) and commitment to football.

can Haskins move as well as Big Ben, if not better?

He was already graded. His market was established  
Jimmy Googs : 1/10/2019 7:55 pm : link
and there is a bunch of NFL games on tape now.

Some of that fly has been unzipped at this point on this guy.

And yes there are moronic opinions on BBI, but still enough of them to cover the range of being correct as well...
RE: Regardless of how..  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 7:58 pm : link
In comment 14257559 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
proficient you think the FO is, it is most definitely above our pay grades to evaluate Rosen.

You think I really trust some of the morons here to tell me how Rosen is likely to perform?


Fat-Mara - you can always count on me...
RE: Regardless of how..  
Strahan91 : 1/10/2019 7:59 pm : link
In comment 14257559 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
proficient you think the FO is, it is most definitely above our pay grades to evaluate Rosen.

You think I really trust some of the morons here to tell me how Rosen is likely to perform?

You do realize our very own gm posts here under his burner account “saqbar”, don’t you?
Larry Tisch on Rosen  
cosmicj : 1/10/2019 8:13 pm : link
“Giants co-owner Steve Tisch was part of the Giants’ delegation that had dinner with quarterback Josh Rosen in Los Angeles last week. What was Tisch’s scouting report on the player who could be available for the Giants with the No. 2 pick in April’s draft?

“His table manners: Unbelievable,” Tisch said. “He was brought up very well. He’s a very charismatic young man.”

Giants material? It’s too soon to tell that. Tisch, like most Giants officials, is adamant that the team does not yet know who it will target in the first round.”

Sounds like Tisch was partly joking but then he throws in the word “charismatic.”
Rock in Newsday - ( New Window )
Gettleman on Rosen, Apr 20 2018 press conference  
cosmicj : 1/10/2019 8:17 pm : link
“Gettleman was asked specifically about Rosen’s love for the game. It has been something that has been questioned. After meeting with Rosen at the combine and privately during a visit, it wasn’t a concern. Gettleman had no doubts Rosen wants to play football.“
I Find it Funny That BBI Thinks...  
Jim in Tampa : 1/10/2019 9:15 pm : link
The Cards would actually trade Rosen after 1 year. And if they did that they'd have to add either a pick or another player to sweeten the deal in order to get the Giants' pick at 6.

And all this talk about Rosen being picked at 10 and therefore not worth the 6th overall the following year is just dumb. Last year's draft had more blue chip talent at the top. Rosen would be the top QB in this draft and go earlier than the 6th spot if he were coming out this year. That makes him MORE valuable than the #6 overall, not less.

But again, it's doubtful that the Cards would trade him anyway.
RE: I Find it Funny That BBI Thinks...  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 9:28 pm : link
In comment 14257678 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
The Cards would actually trade Rosen after 1 year. And if they did that they'd have to add either a pick or another player to sweeten the deal in order to get the Giants' pick at 6.

And all this talk about Rosen being picked at 10 and therefore not worth the 6th overall the following year is just dumb. Last year's draft had more blue chip talent at the top. Rosen would be the top QB in this draft and go earlier than the 6th spot if he were coming out this year. That makes him MORE valuable than the #6 overall, not less.

But again, it's doubtful that the Cards would trade him anyway.

It is very unlikely that the Cardinals would trade Rosen this offseason but crazier things have happened. If Kingsbury is enamored with Murray he could convince the FO to take Murray and trade Rosen for assets to improve the roster around Murray.
I remember how shocked I was  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 9:29 pm : link
when Josh McDaniels traded away Jay Cutler shortly after he was hired.
What an asinine thread. Rosen isn’t even worth a 2nd round pick  
NYGmen58 : 1/10/2019 9:52 pm : link
At this point. To my credit, I knew he was not an nfl qb, and would be an awful fit in NY.

Sy, I respect you man, but Rosen is a joke. Don’t double down on stupid.
Rosen!!!  
TD : 1/10/2019 10:43 pm : link
He was my pick at #2 last year and I would certainly take him at 6 this year.

If this somehow comes true, it would be the ideal scenario. Basically walking out of last year’s draft with Barkley AND Rosen.

Make it happen, Gettleman!
RE: Rosen!!!  
Britt in VA : 1/10/2019 10:46 pm : link
In comment 14257841 TD said:
Quote:
He was my pick at #2 last year and I would certainly take him at 6 this year.

If this somehow comes true, it would be the ideal scenario. Basically walking out of last year’s draft with Barkley AND Rosen.

Make it happen, Gettleman!


It's actually a dream scenario. Probably a pipe dream, but damn, if it could actually happen....
RE: What an asinine thread. Rosen isn’t even worth a 2nd round pick  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 10:54 pm : link
In comment 14257751 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
At this point. To my credit, I knew he was not an nfl qb, and would be an awful fit in NY.

Sy, I respect you man, but Rosen is a joke. Don’t double down on stupid.


Any reasoning behind this?

-The guy that is labeled "stupid"
Sy'56 - before you go off you gotta realize that very often  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/11/2019 12:50 am : link
here opinions about college players especially is not based on actually watching players play... A guy reads something - a lot of garbage was spread around Rosen's demeanor, desire (or lack of it), the fact he has other interests, UCLA's record during his tenure there...

Only the SoCal guys here have probably seen a lot of Rosen actually play, and have seen the # of times Rosen has thread the needle to put balls on his WRs or TE's hands only to have pass after pass dropped. His and Darnold's last year, was USC v. UCLA even aired on the east Coast? At what hour?
This will never happen  
montanagiant : 1/11/2019 1:05 am : link
On face value, it's ridiculous to even consider
RE: I would give serious consideration  
Optimus-NY : 1/11/2019 3:05 am : link
In comment 14256517 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
to trading that #6 for Rosen. If you can go back in time 1 year and say the Giants would end up Saquon and Rosen, and it would cost the #6 overall the next year, I think everyone would jump on that.


Agreed. I'd do it.
RE: It doesn't have to be a pick that we trade  
Optimus-NY : 1/11/2019 4:08 am : link
In comment 14256897 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It could be a player. I won't say his name because all the same posters will descend on this thread and scream. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times.


LMAO! You've got me rolling. So true.
RE: I want a mobile QB, so i'm intrigued by Murray  
Gruber : 1/11/2019 9:24 am : link
In comment 14257563 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
but i'm also concerned about his frame (not so much his height) and commitment to football.

can Haskins move as well as Big Ben, if not better?


They're not even sure Murrary is 5ft 9in. And he has a slender frame. We know the consensus here about quarterbacks who love to rush: they're an accident waiting to happen. Well, Murray is smaller than any of the NFL quarterbacks discussed on here in the past twelve months.
That plus the possibility of an opt out to baseball means there's no way he can be considered a round one draft prospect.
We'll know how tall he really is when he's measured at the combine.  
Ira : 1/11/2019 9:36 am : link
I've read 5'9, 5'10, 5'11 and now he's not even 5'9. For me, waiting is better than speculating. I love the videos I've seen of him and I'm impressed by his stats, but size does matter. As far as his frame goes, he doesn't look that slender to me - probably stronger than OBJ. But we'll get a better idea at the combine.

Gettleman is conservative, but he's also willing to think outside of the box, so there's an chance, though not a big one, that Murray may be wearing blue next season.
Rosen in cold weather?  
CT Charlie : 1/11/2019 11:06 am : link
How much tape is there on Rosen in Meadlowlands-type conditions?
RE: We'll know how tall he really is when he's measured at the combine.  
GFAN52 : 1/11/2019 11:11 am : link
In comment 14258053 Ira said:
Quote:
I've read 5'9, 5'10, 5'11 and now he's not even 5'9. For me, waiting is better than speculating. I love the videos I've seen of him and I'm impressed by his stats, but size does matter. As far as his frame goes, he doesn't look that slender to me - probably stronger than OBJ. But we'll get a better idea at the combine.

Gettleman is conservative, but he's also willing to think outside of the box, so there's an chance, though not a big one, that Murray may be wearing blue next season.


He's not 5'11 that's for sure. I would bet under 5'9" when he's officially measured. It's silly to think he would be drafted #1 by the Cardinals.
RE: We'll know how tall he really is when he's measured at the combine.  
bw in dc : 1/11/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14258053 Ira said:
Quote:
I've read 5'9, 5'10, 5'11 and now he's not even 5'9. For me, waiting is better than speculating. I love the videos I've seen of him and I'm impressed by his stats, but size does matter. As far as his frame goes, he doesn't look that slender to me - probably stronger than OBJ. But we'll get a better idea at the combine.



The OU football "official roster" has him at 5'10", 195, which likely included measurement in his cleats, helmet, and pads.

After the A's drafted Murray in the MLB draft this year, there is a picture of Murray standing next to A's GM Billy Beane. Beane is like 6'3". Murray looks like a jockey getting ready to ride in the Preakness.

I will be shocked if he breaks 5'9".
RE: Rosen in cold weather?  
Jay on the Island : 1/11/2019 12:59 pm : link
In comment 14258205 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
How much tape is there on Rosen in Meadlowlands-type conditions?

About the same as Darnold had. I wouldn’t worry about the weather unless arm strength was in question but that is definitely not the case with Rosen.
Murray  
stretch234 : 1/11/2019 1:43 pm : link
Colleges have history of adding height and weight to players

When OU lists you at 5-10 and 195 you are not 5-10 and 195

If the Cardinals were stupid enough to offer Rosen for the 6th pick you absolutely do it. Your QB search is done

You then have Rosen & Barkley in back to back years - that is stealing
RE: RE: What an asinine thread. Rosen isn’t even worth a 2nd round pick  
Thegratefulhead : 1/11/2019 2:22 pm : link
In comment 14257857 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 14257751 NYGmen58 said:


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At this point. To my credit, I knew he was not an nfl qb, and would be an awful fit in NY.

Sy, I respect you man, but Rosen is a joke. Don’t double down on stupid.



Any reasoning behind this?

-The guy that is labeled "stupid"
Sy, I suspect this is because of the picture of Rosen in hat. This has the tone of a certain type of social media poster. Thank you for all your contributions here.
RE: Despite the QB prototype changing...  
WarriorHal : 1/11/2019 3:06 pm : link
In comment 14256298 bw in dc said:
Quote:
using the first pick for a 5’9”, 170 lb QB would be incredulous.

And I really like Kyler Murray.




Some folks are saying he's really only 5'7"
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